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Talk:TheUltimate3/Archive 7

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Madara/Tobi Issue

I dont understand why you didnt keep the last guys edit to "Tobi". Its much more accurate. This site has misinformed so many people on the topic for so many years now. This site has taken everything single claim Tobi has ever made and treated them as absolute truths. Then as supporting documentation the reader is referred back to the manga when Tobi originally made the claim, as if that is reasonable evidence. As if someone behind a mask couldnt just be saying anything they wanted. The number of people that have accused Tobi as Madara beyond any shadow of a doubt, just because Tobi states he's Madara, is completely horrendous and unfortunate. The final outcome of someone making the claim usually ends with the person referring people to this site. Which of course creates a catch 22 since this site has no evidence what-so-ever to support the article except for what Tobi says is true or at one point deceived another character into thinking it's true. The phrasing of the article doesn't allow even the slightly bit of hesitation to the sites invalid declarations. The site moderators chose a side long ago, when every wise person knew Narutopedia was being too hasty. The reason the site was hasty was because of the ongoing and heated debates. When moderators finally saw a hint that their theory is correct (tobi is the madara of legend) they ceased the oppuruntiy to shut out all free discussion and edits on the topic until so many people referenced this site for so long you guys started to believe your own bullshit. Unfortunately, far too many people take Narutopedia's baseless allegations as the final word. Even when there is no way possible to predict the outcomes of an ongoing mystery and unfinished storyline by nothing more than unsubstantiated statements from someone in a mask. The plain and simple truth has always been Tobi wears a mask as a literary device so the reader will always question his identity. Tobi can be Madara in another form, another body, the original Madara, Madara from another time, or a completely different person all together. Especially since time-travel/space-time has become more relevant and the obvious and simple transformation jutsu has always existed on top of this factor. The time has more than come for this site to add a disclaimer to the Madara article making it crystal clear that Narutopedia has no idea wtf is behind the mask of Tobi anymore than the next source. Nobody knows if Kishimoto even knows what the future for the Tobi/Madara storyline holds. It's just beyond arrogant to make claims with such certainty when a character wearing a mask is one of the oldest and most recognized literary devices known to writing. It represents mystery.

A few points.

       The Third Databook had these lines 
       From Madara's artice: "Madara disappeared from history and, donning a mask, started moving as Tobi." (歴史から姿を消したマダラは、仮面を被り、トビとして動き出す。, Rekishi kara sugata o keshita Madara wa, kamen o kaburi, Tobi toshite ugokidasu.) 
       From Tobi's article: "Uchiha Madara — That is Tobi's real name." (うちはマダラ——それがトビの本当の名前だ。, Uchiha Madara—— Sore ga Tobi no hontō no namae da.)' 

So no. We were not lying to the community for years. It was the community not wanting their hopes and dreams crushed for years dragging on and on.

       This comes from the Naruto Bible if you will. We are an encyclopedia or uses the facts that are given to us. The databook stated as fact that Madara put on a mask and started moving as Tobi. 
       We do not use speculation. We give the facts as they are given. The internet is a massive hive of scum and villainy. If you want to go someplace and dance around amazing theories that no one has ever thought of in the history of ever and ever then go right ahead and find one of those forums that also have those amazing theories that no one has ever thought of in the history of ever and ever. This wiki will continue to logically compile the information we are given. We do not have time to deal with every random theory that the internet comes up with. 

Have a fine day.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:52, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks I did have a fine day, but I still see Madara's article is plastered with pictures of Tobi as if Narutopedia has some secret extensive knowledge into the matter.
The Data Books are nothing more than imagined recovered intel at the time they were written. Since the only intel on Tobi is the intel he himself created and flourished as part of his plan, you really do not have any additional references. The data books are NOT third party sources. In fact the third data book was released 3 years ago and written nearly four. Regarding issues that have resolved themselves since the last data book release it would be fine to use them as a reference. However, this issue purposely never resolved. Moreover, the third data book conclusively creates a profile on Madara and Tobi as separate entities with different statistics (i.e. Tobi has height and weight listed, where as Madara does not and only has information limited to his data of birth).
Both 'translations', more so the second, could be accurate. Keep in mind they are both in fact interpretations and not word for word translations, as this would be too problematic for people that follow Japanese literature without having the decency to intensely study the language for at least a few years. Both phrases are written in a questionable prophetic tone, yet you make no mention of the tone. There is a huge difference between a person saying they are hungry enough to eat a horse and actually being hungry enough to eat a horse.
歴史から姿を消したマダラは、仮面を被り、トビとして動き出す。 We can agree that Madara disappeared from history/past, a mask appeared, Tobi wore the mask.
うちはマダラ——それがトビの本当の名前だ。 The dashes after Madara's name are not the equivalent to a comma in english. Rather they are more similar to an ellipsis ([1]). Not a japanese ellipsis, an english ellipsis. There is a difference.
I have visited your site countless times over the past few year and have never joined or commented on anything. The simple truth is you have almost always speculated on the Madara article. Why did you do it? "not wanting their [the community] hopes and dreams crushed for years dragging on and on." Rather than deal with the stress of the true situation, Narutopedia speculated on the matter. I dont blame the site, but its the truth. And for time saving sake, I hope Tobi does still turn out to be Madara for your site.
Thanks for replying and all the work you guys put into the site.

--Jaiden! (talk) 06:00, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Fun fact. The reason we consider the Databooks the Naruto Bible is because they are written by Kishimoto. What he writes is law, for good or ill. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, but we move based on what we are given. In story, he called himself Madara. In the databook he is called Madara. I do not claim to know Japanese, but our resident translator has confirmed that the databook said as such.

   You're welcome to not like our decisions. You're welcome to do the dance of speculation yourself. We will move when we have confirmation, not when we come up with a theory that we believe can work.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:34, October 16, 2011 (UTC) 

Are you high or what? "Fun fact", Kishimoto is the author. Moot point. You consider the data books bibles. Insignificant. Kishimoto writes many plot twists, good or ill has nothing to do with the topic. He writes the entire series... Of course I am free to believe whatever I wish, why even say that? In the story he called himself Madara, the entire point is there has always been the possibility that he's a liar, but Narutopedia does not address this. The data book does not call him Madara, but actually refers to supposed gathered intel. Liking or not liking your decision is moot as well. The article is groundless. Narutopedia is doing the "dance of speculation", thats my entire case. You do not have any confirmation yet, either way. Nobody is asking you to "come up with a theory". I do not know where you are getting most of these assumptions, but I am actually asking the opposite. Stop theorizing. If your theories are based on the data books because they are written by kishimoto, well I obviously can give you thousands of examples where kishimoto has written things from character's perspectives that are not fully accurate. I highly suggest you look into literary techniques, most importantly "unreliable narrator" (data books), "red herring", "plot device" (tobi's mask), and "tone". So do some research, stop the blame changing attempts, stop defending the article for the sake of pride, and show a little humility and honesty. Btw, data book 1 says Naruto's height is 145.3cm and he's 12 years old. Kishimoto wrote it, its part of the bible. Things in the bible are law. No exceptions. So if you are referencing data book 3 which was released 3 years ago, obviously the god of your bibles has the plot written out for years. Which makes it hard to explain the breaks he takes to come up with future manga plots. --Jaiden! (talk) 13:29, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Kishimoto is the author. You and I are just people who like his story. His words carry the weight. If he is lying to us, then he lied to us and good for him. We will still write the encyclopedia as if his words were the truth until absolutely proven otherwise. That is how things work. That's how things have worked in the past. And I think we've been doing pretty good so far.

That said,I no longer wish this to continue. It no longer interests me. Like I said before. Believe what you will. The wiki will continue to move based off the information we have, not what we come up with. You're welcome to make my Talk Page your bitch but I can assure you nothing you want will come from it and chances are extremely high I probably won't read it.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 13:46, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Basically, you're entirely wrong. That's why your responses are littered with philosophical and weightless responses that have little to nothing to do with the issue. Maybe you dont have any authority on the the subject, I dont know. To say an author is lying to you is the most ridiculous, juvenile misunderstanding of any format of entertainment I think I may have encountered in my entire life. Its like watching X-men and saying "trust me, wolverine is real. Stan Lee would never lie". It has nothing to do with lying. You're in a completely different dimension. You say nothing I want will come of it. Well I got what I wanted hours ago. Pretty much just kicking you while you're down at this point. So keep crying about how you're just going to not read what Im saying, it doesnt matter to me. Im not talking to you. You cant even grasp the most simple of concepts. Im speaking for someone, not speaking to someone. Its also hilarious how you always reply with something along the lines of 'we use the information we have available'. So where is the reasonable information that you base the article. Almost every sentence in that article should begin with the clause "Tobi states,...". Because thats the ultimate source of information to which you are referring. DONT READ THIS --Jaiden! (talk) 14:19, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

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