Recommendations and Questions
Hey, Omnibender. Wow, a lot of things happened while I was gone, huh? Has ShounenSuki taken a permanent break? :/ Anyway, as I've probably already said before, I've been... busier than usual. I'm up to date on recent chapters though.
I was just looking over this page and was satisfied to see how it's grown. A marvelous piece of work. In my overview, I came up with some questions and recommendations:
- For your "Proposed combinations table" and "Three elements" sections, you might want to add an extra column for "Effects" or "Functions" and throw the expected jutsu descriptions in there instead of in the "Reasoning" column. I believe it'll give the readers a better idea of what you mean by the nature (like how you answered questions in the talk page about what you imagine the natures would do), and maybe a few expected effects (Gas could be explosive, Star would be plasma-based, Sky is an energy of some sort, etc.). You might want to check out:
- If the following two have been decided, I think you should at least mark their spots to let people know that you're really just looking for the other two :P I understand that you were looking for the right term, but yeah.
- Water + Lightning + Yin = Umishiru's idea of malfunction?
- Earth + Lightning + Yin = Welding?
- My latest candidates for missing spots:
- I suggested Water + Lightning + Yang = Something like Fuwa Fuwa no Mi or Ope Ope no Mi (I suggested the second one some while ago). Interestingly, the latter fruit also appears to grant the user a seemingly unrelated electric shock-like ability. Overall, I don't think this nature touches too closely to Space-Time Ninjutsu. A space/force/telekinesis-sort of thing. I honestly this is the strongest connection yet.
- I did suggest Earth + Lightning + Yang = Friction, but I myself am not too sure about what it'd really be, exactly. I did write up a description some while ago, though.
- Glass Release would sorta control Glass between fluid and solid states to shape it, yes?
- You probably already answered this, but Gas is prohibited from generating certain gases such as Smoke?
- Is there a particular reason why Lightning is needed as energy for Implosion?
- I understand Rust is more related to decay, but does it completely rule out actual rust? Or does it rust metals and decay organic material accordingly?
- I get how petroleum and coal are different substances, but is that really necessary? Perhaps you could emphasize the difference in the "Effects" column :)
Yeah, ShounenSuki sort of gave up on the series. An effects/functions might work, though I think that would only be actually necessary in the releases whose effects aren't obvious by the name or the reasoning behind the formation. I've decided on the malfunctioning and welding ideas, but I still haven't found the translations. I've left a topic in ShounenSuki's talk page back when he was still active, but I never heard back from that topic. I'll probably ask Seelentau. I recall I wanted to know something about a specific way of writing welding, and something about terms for malfunction/disruption. I'll have to read up on those One Piece suggestions later, given I don't follow that series. I never gave it much thought about the fluid phase of glass. Maybe the glass could be spit either in the fluid state, hardening and sharpening as it flies, or be spit as a solid and sharp shard already. Smoke is the air plus the solid particles of the burning fuel. I always saw gas as either flammable gases, poisonous gases. For example, putting out a lot of carbon monoxide around the opponent. I was suggested lightning for Implosion by making use of the vibration aspect of it, which would be used to make the target less stable. Rust isn't ruled out. I sort of see it as the decaying agent being rust itself. As such, there would kinda be both rust and the natural decaying in organic matter. In a rather simplified way, I always saw Petroleum and Coal as flammable versions of Water and Earth Release. I can probably think of some neater effects. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:11, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
Aw :/, I hope ShounenSuki returns one day to help us out, at least. Who's gonna create the images?
I think the "effects/functions" column would be a great addition for everyone, especially for those who read too fast and don't realize that Dawn should be solar radiation and that Star should be plasma. Others could take a quick look at what the nature's jutsu would look like. I hope you get to take a read on the pages I linked; I think they help greatly in the ideas department. Here, I tried to organize what you answered for me so far in a favourable form. Feel free to take and edit the following to add to the column ^^
- Dawn Release: Turns chakra into "aurora", or a form of solar radiation, and manipulates it. Can use it to burn, ignite, or cut, and also disorient due to brightness.
- Cloud Release: Turns chakra into clouds and manipulates them. An alternative to steam. Dense enough to physically push things. Can possibly be used to absorb and diffuse lightning.
- Smoke Release: Turns chakra into smoke and manipulates it. Can be used in various ways, such as instant smoke screens and suffocation.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Gas Release: Turns chakra into a highly combustible and poisonous gas and manipulates it, or manipulates pre-existing gases. Other gases are available with more finesse.
- The ability to be manipulated may not be a great idea on my part, since Boil Release couldn't control the harmful cloud of acid. Same goes for many of the following natures; Boil Release simply couldn't brush aside the potential threat to allies.
- Metal Release: Turns chakra into metal and manipulates it, or manipulates pre-existing metal. Can use iron and steel versions of Earth Release techniques. Other metals are available with more skill, including softer metals such as the alkali metals.
- Solid form is favoured for manipulation, and metal becomes difficult to control in liquid form; hence, Mercury is not included.
- Purification Release: Turns chakra into a form of energy that discriminates between targets and manipulates it.
- A similar idea is Fairy Law, a spell that covers a huge area with a light that only harms those who the user considers an enemy.
- Power Release: Uses chakra to convert energy.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Star Release: Turns chakra into "star", or plasma, and manipulates it.
- Glass Release: Turns chakra into glass and manipulates it. Somewhat like solid form of Wind Release. Controls either liquid glass or glass shards which mold into glass structures.
- Sky Release: Turns chakra into some form of energy and manipulates it.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Implosion Release: Turns chakra into an unstabilizing, crushing energy and uses it to cause targets to collapse upon themselves.
- Pulse Release: Turns chakra into a propagating energy to utilize attacks such as powerful ripples or shock waves.
- Rust Release: Turns chakra into a form of matter resembling rust and manipulates it. Affects organic targets to cause decay, decomposition, and rotting.
- Dry Release: Turns chakra into a dehydrating energy and manipulates it. Can remove moisture without addition of heat.
- I imagine chakra acting as a towel, the Yin aspect acting to dry by making itself damp.
- Miasma Release: Turns chakra into airborne pathogens (e.g. viruses) and manipulates them. A disease-infested version of Wind Release, which can continue to multiply exponentially to destroy entire armies without the user's effort.
- Mirror Release: Turns chakra into a reflective energy and manipulates it. Has various effects, such as trapping targets in mirrors, reflecting enemy attacks, and confusing with illusions.
- Welding Release: Turns chakra into a bonding energy and manipulates it. Can merge different objects together at the molecular level while freely manipulating their forms.
- (Lightning + Earth + Yang)
- Disruption Release: Turns chakra into a disruptive energy and manipulates it. Destroys systems, causing disorder.
- A new idea I came up with was found in Erwin Schrödinger's book What is life, which stated his idea that life is a system which exports entropy (or imports negentropy, but same thing). Of course, that doesn't mean it disobeys the second law of thermodynamics or anything, since it would just increase the net entropy around itself. I found this interesting because that means we can add the general physical definition that Disruption Release works to increase entropy, although Fire, Wind, and Lightning do sound disorderly as well... but it was a worthy discovery.
- (Lightning + Water + Yang)
- Petroleum Release: Turns chakra into petroleum and manipulates it. Somewhat like a flammable version of Water Release.
- Mercury Release: Turns chakra into liquid mercury and manipulates it. Somewhat like a mercury version of Water Release. Every touch and wound inflicted becomes poisoned, spreading throughout the body.
- I also imagine momentarily shaping mercury into weapons, as well as taking advantage of the vapour it releases.
- Bacteria Release: Turns chakra into bacteria and manipulates them, or manipulates pre-existing bacteria. Bacteria, unlike Miasma, can also be used to convert chemicals to cause beneficial effects.
- Not airborne, unlike Miasma.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Coal Release: Turns chakra into coal and manipulates it. Somewhat like a flammable version of Earth Release.
- Flint Release: Turns chakra into a form of matter that resembles flint and manipulates it. Upon impact, this matter releases sparks which ignite and explode.
- Alcohol Release: Turns chakra into alcohol and manipulates it. Can manipulate ethanol (e.g. A haze that makes targets drunk, which can also be ignited), or other alcohols.
- Scald Release: Turns chakra into a hot liquid and manipulates it. Can be used to burn enemies, or to heal allies with a hot spring-like effect.
- Fluid Release: Turns chakra into a fluidising energy and uses it to turn targets into fluid forms. Targets can be fluidised without the addition of heat.
- Erase Release: Turns chakra into an erasing energy and manipulates it. Can make targets appear to vanish into thin air by overwhelming Yin, which governs form, with Yang. This causes the target's form to collapse, reducing them to raw untraceable energy (?)
- I avoid saying "erases from existence" but I guess that's sorta what it does... It just sounds way too powerful that way ahaha.
- Health Release: Uses chakra to affect metabolism and homeostasis, allowing the user to utilize negative and positive feedback systems to instantly adapt to a particular situation, maintaining a perfectly healthy state. This effect can also be applied to heal allies. Can also be used to negatively affect the health of enemies.
- Soul Release: Involves techniques that affect souls, also powered by the user's soul. Possibly changing the souls of others, etc.
- Since Umishiru's animation idea was not accepted due to this nature's existence, this nature could also turn chakra into artificial souls and imbue objects with them to bring them to life.
- Mind Release: Uses chakra to affect the minds of targets. Similar to the Yamanaka clan's signature techniques, except more versatile and with fewer requirements.
- Flesh Release: Turns chakra into soft tissues, muscles, fats, or organs and manipulates them, or manipulates pre-existing flesh. Somewhat like a living version of Earth Release, possibly similar to Jiraiya's Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind, but as a creation instead of summoning. Could involve complex healing.
- Combined with Shikotsumyaku, this could create and repair whole bodies! ^^
- Blood Release: Turns chakra into blood and manipulates it, or manipulates already-existing blood. Can use blood versions of Water Release techniques. Can utilize it for a variety of effects (e.g. A clone of the enemy can be created from the target's blood, which shares pain via a blood link.). Can possibly also take partial control over summons utilizing blood.
I also noticed that previous posts by other users had lists such as these, and I hope I didn't repeat too much info, and hopefully added new ones. I really look forward to an "Effects" column. ^^ --GoDai (talk) 07:34, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
I’m glad you mentioned that other users had posted similar recaps because I’m one of those users and at first I thought, “What was my recap, chopped liver?” ~laughs~ In all seriousness, though, it’s good that you posted another recap since 1) with previous parts of this discussion going into archives, it’s good to have a reminder of what we’ve had so far and 2) you added updates, additional information, and fascinating thoughts and commentary. Good job! As for an effects column, I'd like to see one as well. Raidra (talk) 16:59, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
Four-part elemental combinations?
Hey Omnibender, have you ever considered the possibilities of four-part combinations? I am trying to make a list of the possible four-part combinations, and here's my ideas so far:
Water + Earth + Fire + Air = Ether Ether, in ancient Greek culture, is the combination of the four elements (Water, Earth, Fire, and Air). It is meant to be some kind of matter that made up space.
Water + Earth + Fire + Lightning = Concrete Firstly, Water, Earth, and Fire would make some kind of tar, or other sticky substance. Lightning would solidify it, thus making a material such as concrete.
I hope you like my idea. I am currently trying to think up combinations for Water, Earth, Fire, and Yin or Yang. I would greatly appreciate your advice on this matter. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:28, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
No, I haven't. I don't think it's necessary to try making such complex combos. The only reason I even bothered making three element combinations is because the series itself introduced them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:11, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
Idea Pt. 17
Aether Release. Lightning + Earth + Yang. Mythological wise. Aether has been seen as the air the gods breathed and at one time in Alchemy seen as the one element that does not change, has no temperature but does change density. It was once used in theories to explain the existence of magnetic fields and the like. So maybe a form or matter or energy that fluctuates in density but stays at a constant temperature or doesn't have one, having that "room temperature" feel. The Yang overpowers the Yin and attributes to its unavailability to change form. Sort of like a "stuck" or "lock" release. As for how it would be used. A object or energy hit with it would be stuck in its present form. So a Ice user could not freeze affected water, or a lava user could not melt the ground. The only thing that changes is that the object's density is fluctuating up and down. Lightning allows the element to exist in energy form, Earth physical and attributes to the density, with Yang overpowering Yin to prevent the change of form while powering up Earth's ability to change density but causes this enhanced density powers to become unstable and fluctuate. Perhaps while traveling or when it hits, it releases a magnetic field where everything it, is affected by it powers.
Ideas Pt. 18
Life/Vital release. Water + Lightning + Yang. Lightning, as electricity, is seen as the spark of life. Water is seen as the one essential ingredient that allows life to form and survive with most if not all forms of life relying on it. Yang is seen as life energy. These three aspects are combined to create the ultimate life element.
Separation/Divide/Split release. Water + Lightning + Yang. Electrolysis of water which basically breaks up water into its base elements of oxygen and hydrogen by passing electricity through it. This action of separation is then enhanced or speed up by yang. Basically an element that breaks up a element into a constituent parts. Lava into fire and earth, salt water into salt and water, and a exploding tag into ink and paper. Sort of like a un-fusion element.Umishiru (talk) 11:19, November 25, 2012 (UTC)