Recommendations and Questions
Hey, Omnibender. Wow, a lot of things happened while I was gone, huh? Has ShounenSuki taken a permanent break? :/ Anyway, as I've probably already said before, I've been... busier than usual. I'm up to date on recent chapters though.
I was just looking over this page and was satisfied to see how it's grown. A marvelous piece of work. In my overview, I came up with some questions and recommendations:
- For your "Proposed combinations table" and "Three elements" sections, you might want to add an extra column for "Effects" or "Functions" and throw the expected jutsu descriptions in there instead of in the "Reasoning" column. I believe it'll give the readers a better idea of what you mean by the nature (like how you answered questions in the talk page about what you imagine the natures would do), and maybe a few expected effects (Gas could be explosive, Star would be plasma-based, Sky is an energy of some sort, etc.). You might want to check out:
- If the following two have been decided, I think you should at least mark their spots to let people know that you're really just looking for the other two :P I understand that you were looking for the right term, but yeah.
- Water + Lightning + Yin = Umishiru's idea of malfunction?
- Earth + Lightning + Yin = Welding?
- My latest candidates for missing spots:
- I suggested Water + Lightning + Yang = Something like Fuwa Fuwa no Mi or Ope Ope no Mi (I suggested the second one some while ago). Interestingly, the latter fruit also appears to grant the user a seemingly unrelated electric shock-like ability. Overall, I don't think this nature touches too closely to Space-Time Ninjutsu. A space/force/telekinesis-sort of thing. I honestly this is the strongest connection yet.
- I did suggest Earth + Lightning + Yang = Friction, but I myself am not too sure about what it'd really be, exactly. I did write up a description some while ago, though.
- What about Death and Space Releases? (126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:23, April 2, 2013 (UTC))
- Glass Release would sorta control Glass between fluid and solid states to shape it, yes?
- You probably already answered this, but Gas is prohibited from generating certain gases such as Smoke?
- Is there a particular reason why Lightning is needed as energy for Implosion?
- I understand Rust is more related to decay, but does it completely rule out actual rust? Or does it rust metals and decay organic material accordingly?
- I get how petroleum and coal are different substances, but is that really necessary? Perhaps you could emphasize the difference in the "Effects" column :)
Yeah, ShounenSuki sort of gave up on the series. An effects/functions might work, though I think that would only be actually necessary in the releases whose effects aren't obvious by the name or the reasoning behind the formation. I've decided on the malfunctioning and welding ideas, but I still haven't found the translations. I've left a topic in ShounenSuki's talk page back when he was still active, but I never heard back from that topic. I'll probably ask Seelentau. I recall I wanted to know something about a specific way of writing welding, and something about terms for malfunction/disruption. I'll have to read up on those One Piece suggestions later, given I don't follow that series. I never gave it much thought about the fluid phase of glass. Maybe the glass could be spit either in the fluid state, hardening and sharpening as it flies, or be spit as a solid and sharp shard already. Smoke is the air plus the solid particles of the burning fuel. I always saw gas as either flammable gases, poisonous gases. For example, putting out a lot of carbon monoxide around the opponent. I was suggested lightning for Implosion by making use of the vibration aspect of it, which would be used to make the target less stable. Rust isn't ruled out. I sort of see it as the decaying agent being rust itself. As such, there would kinda be both rust and the natural decaying in organic matter. In a rather simplified way, I always saw Petroleum and Coal as flammable versions of Water and Earth Release. I can probably think of some neater effects. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:11, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
Aw :/, I hope ShounenSuki returns one day to help us out, at least. Who's gonna create the images?
I think the "effects/functions" column would be a great addition for everyone, especially for those who read too fast and don't realize that Dawn should be solar radiation and that Star should be plasma. Others could take a quick look at what the nature's jutsu would look like. I hope you get to take a read on the pages I linked; I think they help greatly in the ideas department. Here, I tried to organize what you answered for me so far in a favourable form. Feel free to take and edit the following to add to the column ^^
- Dawn Release: Turns chakra into "aurora", or a form of solar radiation, and manipulates it. Can use it to burn, ignite, or cut, and also disorient due to brightness.
- Cloud Release: Turns chakra into clouds and manipulates them. An alternative to steam. Dense enough to physically push things. Can possibly be used to absorb and diffuse lightning.
- Smoke Release: Turns chakra into smoke and manipulates it. Can be used in various ways, such as instant smoke screens and suffocation.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Gas Release: Turns chakra into a highly combustible and poisonous gas and manipulates it, or manipulates pre-existing gases. Other gases are available with more finesse.
- The ability to be manipulated may not be a great idea on my part, since Boil Release couldn't control the harmful cloud of acid. Same goes for many of the following natures; Boil Release simply couldn't brush aside the potential threat to allies.
- Metal Release: Turns chakra into metal and manipulates it, or manipulates pre-existing metal. Can use iron and steel versions of Earth Release techniques. Other metals are available with more skill, including softer metals such as the alkali metals.
- Solid form is favoured for manipulation, and metal becomes difficult to control in liquid form; hence, Mercury is not included.
- Purification Release: Turns chakra into a form of energy that discriminates between targets and manipulates it.
- A similar idea is Fairy Law, a spell that covers a huge area with a light that only harms those who the user considers an enemy.
- Power Release: Uses chakra to convert energy.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Star Release: Turns chakra into "star", or plasma, and manipulates it.
- Glass Release: Turns chakra into glass and manipulates it. Somewhat like solid form of Wind Release. Controls either liquid glass or glass shards which mold into glass structures.
- Sky Release: Turns chakra into some form of energy and manipulates it.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Implosion Release: Turns chakra into an unstabilizing, crushing energy and uses it to cause targets to collapse upon themselves.
- Pulse Release: Turns chakra into a propagating energy to utilize attacks such as powerful ripples or shock waves.
- Rust Release: Turns chakra into a form of matter resembling rust and manipulates it. Affects organic targets to cause decay, decomposition, and rotting.
- Dry Release: Turns chakra into a dehydrating energy and manipulates it. Can remove moisture without addition of heat.
- I imagine chakra acting as a towel, the Yin aspect acting to dry by making itself damp.
- Miasma Release: Turns chakra into airborne pathogens (e.g. viruses) and manipulates them. A disease-infested version of Wind Release, which can continue to multiply exponentially to destroy entire armies without the user's effort.
- Mirror Release: Turns chakra into a reflective energy and manipulates it. Has various effects, such as trapping targets in mirrors, reflecting enemy attacks, and confusing with illusions.
- Welding Release: Turns chakra into a bonding energy and manipulates it. Can merge different objects together at the molecular level while freely manipulating their forms.
- (Lightning + Earth + Yang)
- Disruption Release: Turns chakra into a disruptive energy and manipulates it. Destroys systems, causing disorder.
- A new idea I came up with was found in Erwin Schrödinger's book What is life, which stated his idea that life is a system which exports entropy (or imports negentropy, but same thing). Of course, that doesn't mean it disobeys the second law of thermodynamics or anything, since it would just increase the net entropy around itself. I found this interesting because that means we can add the general physical definition that Disruption Release works to increase entropy, although Fire, Wind, and Lightning do sound disorderly as well... but it was a worthy discovery.
- (Lightning + Water + Yang)
- Petroleum Release: Turns chakra into petroleum and manipulates it. Somewhat like a flammable version of Water Release.
- Mercury Release: Turns chakra into liquid mercury and manipulates it. Somewhat like a mercury version of Water Release. Every touch and wound inflicted becomes poisoned, spreading throughout the body.
- I also imagine momentarily shaping mercury into weapons, as well as taking advantage of the vapour it releases.
- Bacteria Release: Turns chakra into bacteria and manipulates them, or manipulates pre-existing bacteria. Bacteria, unlike Miasma, can also be used to convert chemicals to cause beneficial effects.
- Not airborne, unlike Miasma.
- A more specific detail could help.
- Coal Release: Turns chakra into coal and manipulates it. Somewhat like a flammable version of Earth Release.
- Flint Release: Turns chakra into a form of matter that resembles flint and manipulates it. Upon impact, this matter releases sparks which ignite and explode.
- Alcohol Release: Turns chakra into alcohol and manipulates it. Can manipulate ethanol (e.g. A haze that makes targets drunk, which can also be ignited), or other alcohols.
- Scald Release: Turns chakra into a hot liquid and manipulates it. Can be used to burn enemies, or to heal allies with a hot spring-like effect.
- Fluid Release: Turns chakra into a fluidising energy and uses it to turn targets into fluid forms. Targets can be fluidised without the addition of heat.
- Erase Release: Turns chakra into an erasing energy and manipulates it. Can make targets appear to vanish into thin air by overwhelming Yin, which governs form, with Yang. This causes the target's form to collapse, reducing them to raw untraceable energy (?)
- I avoid saying "erases from existence" but I guess that's sorta what it does... It just sounds way too powerful that way ahaha.
- Health Release: Uses chakra to affect metabolism and homeostasis, allowing the user to utilize negative and positive feedback systems to instantly adapt to a particular situation, maintaining a perfectly healthy state. This effect can also be applied to heal allies. Can also be used to negatively affect the health of enemies.
- Soul Release: Involves techniques that affect souls, also powered by the user's soul. Possibly changing the souls of others, etc.
- Since Umishiru's animation idea was not accepted due to this nature's existence, this nature could also turn chakra into artificial souls and imbue objects with them to bring them to life.
- Mind Release: Uses chakra to affect the minds of targets. Similar to the Yamanaka clan's signature techniques, except more versatile and with fewer requirements.
- Flesh Release: Turns chakra into soft tissues, muscles, fats, or organs and manipulates them, or manipulates pre-existing flesh. Somewhat like a living version of Earth Release, possibly similar to Jiraiya's Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind, but as a creation instead of summoning. Could involve complex healing.
- Combined with Shikotsumyaku, this could create and repair whole bodies! ^^
- Blood Release: Turns chakra into blood and manipulates it, or manipulates already-existing blood. Can use blood versions of Water Release techniques. Can utilize it for a variety of effects (e.g. A clone of the enemy can be created from the target's blood, which shares pain via a blood link.). Can possibly also take partial control over summons utilizing blood.
I also noticed that previous posts by other users had lists such as these, and I hope I didn't repeat too much info, and hopefully added new ones. I really look forward to an "Effects" column. ^^ --GoDai (talk) 07:34, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
I’m glad you mentioned that other users had posted similar recaps because I’m one of those users and at first I thought, “What was my recap, chopped liver?” ~laughs~ In all seriousness, though, it’s good that you posted another recap since 1) with previous parts of this discussion going into archives, it’s good to have a reminder of what we’ve had so far and 2) you added updates, additional information, and fascinating thoughts and commentary. Good job! As for an effects column, I'd like to see one as well. Raidra (talk) 16:59, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
Four-part elemental combinations?
Hey Omnibender, have you ever considered the possibilities of four-part combinations? I am trying to make a list of the possible four-part combinations, and here's my ideas so far:
Water + Earth + Fire + Air = Ether Ether, in ancient Greek culture, is the combination of the four elements (Water, Earth, Fire, and Air). It is meant to be some kind of matter that made up space.
Water + Earth + Fire + Lightning = Concrete Firstly, Water, Earth, and Fire would make some kind of tar, or other sticky substance. Lightning would solidify it, thus making a material such as concrete.
I hope you like my idea. I am currently trying to think up combinations for Water, Earth, Fire, and Yin or Yang. I would greatly appreciate your advice on this matter. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:28, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
No, I haven't. I don't think it's necessary to try making such complex combos. The only reason I even bothered making three element combinations is because the series itself introduced them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:11, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
Idea Pt. 17
Aether Release. Lightning + Earth + Yang. Mythological wise. Aether has been seen as the air the gods breathed and at one time in Alchemy seen as the one element that does not change, has no temperature but does change density. It was once used in theories to explain the existence of magnetic fields and the like. So maybe a form or matter or energy that fluctuates in density but stays at a constant temperature or doesn't have one, having that "room temperature" feel. The Yang overpowers the Yin and attributes to its unavailability to change form. Sort of like a "stuck" or "lock" release. As for how it would be used. A object or energy hit with it would be stuck in its present form. So a Ice user could not freeze affected water, or a lava user could not melt the ground. The only thing that changes is that the object's density is fluctuating up and down. Lightning allows the element to exist in energy form, Earth physical and attributes to the density, with Yang overpowering Yin to prevent the change of form while powering up Earth's ability to change density but causes this enhanced density powers to become unstable and fluctuate. Perhaps while traveling or when it hits, it releases a magnetic field where everything it, is affected by it powers.
Ideas Pt. 18
Life/Vital release. Water + Lightning + Yang. Lightning, as electricity, is seen as the spark of life. Water is seen as the one essential ingredient that allows life to form and survive with most if not all forms of life relying on it. Yang is seen as life energy. These three aspects are combined to create the ultimate life element.
Separation/Divide/Split release. Water + Lightning + Yang. Electrolysis of water which basically breaks up water into its base elements of oxygen and hydrogen by passing electricity through it. This action of separation is then enhanced or speed up by yang. Basically an element that breaks up a element into a constituent parts. Lava into fire and earth, salt water into salt and water, and a exploding tag into ink and paper. Sort of like a un-fusion element.Umishiru (talk) 11:19, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
I thought it would be beneficial to compile a list of the ideas for the only two remaining advanced natures, Lightning + Earth + Yang and Lightning + Water + Yang, which have not been rejected. These are from Archive 8 to the present (pretty much the last 12 months or so) and are listed in chronological order so they can be looked up easily. I apologize if I left out any. On February 16, 2012, I offered Front Release as a combination of Lightning, Water, and Yang. In weather terminology, a front occurs when two masses of air at different temperatures come together. This causes clouds to form, often causing weather conditions such as rainfall/thunderstorms or snowfall/snowstorms. This release would allow the user to control weather to a limited degree. However, I’m not going to include it in this list because after reading through these I thought, “Well, forget my dumb idea! These are awesome!” I’m not going to try to come up with more ideas because I don’t think I can do any better than what’s already been offered.
Lightning + Earth + Yang Ideas
- Ferment Release- This release would allow the user to give their chakra the properties of organisms such as yeast. This would allow the user to cause their chakra to induce fermentation in targeted organic objects in order to convert substances for their own purposes. (GoDai, 1/13/12)
- Friction/Static Release- This release would change kinetic energy into heat and turn chakra into a force which resists mechanical motion. The energy produced feels like sandpaper on skin and wears down targets the more they try to move. It may also be able to reduce friction (making the user immune to most forms of weaponry by making the friction of their skin almost non-existent, causing the attacks to slip off their body harmlessly), generate static charges, and allow the user to build up and discharge energy from friction. (GoDai, 1/30/12)
- Unnamed solid light release- This release would create solid holograms that can interact with the real world. (Umishiru, 2/20/12)
- Diffuse Release- This release would ground an object and convert it into energy that is then dispersed almost like a sponge. It travels in a circle radius instead of spinning like Blocking Technique Absorption. (Umishiru, 2/20/12)
- Vein/Alchemy Release- This release would create rivers of life force energy which rejuvenate and revive. (Umishiru, 2/22/12)
- Glow/Waste Release- This release would radiate energy similar to Radiation Release or Scorch Release. This radiation is very harmful and is a cancer-like release in that it makes the target’s own cells/molecules attack and destroy one another. (Umishiru, 3/20/12)
- Static Release- This release would allow the user to build up energy in small places and release huge power in an instant. (Nrvnqsr Chaos, 6/18/12)
- Aether Release (Ether Release in American English)- This release would be a sort of “stuck” or “lock” release in that an object or energy hit with it would be stuck in its present form, though its density could still fluctuate up and down. For instance, an Ice Release user could not freeze affected water and a Lava Release user could not melt the ground. The name could also be another name for Sky Release. (Umishiru, 11/24/12)
Lightning + Water + Yang Ideas
- Ferment/Catalyst Release- This release would create chakra that can act as a powerful catalyst, which can be used to give a target yeast-like properties. This would allow the user to cause their chakra to cause fermentation in targeted organic objects in order to convert substances for their own purposes. (GoDai suggested Ferment Release as Lightning + Earth + Yang on 1/13/12 and Umishiru suggested it as Lightning + Water + Yang on 1/15/12)
- Unnamed space release- This release would allow the user to manipulate space itself as a force, bending and warping it like a Water Release user manipulates water. (GoDai suggested this on 2/10/12, but Umishiru was the one who originally suggested a space-related nature)
- Wild/Raw/Random/Free Release- This release would create a flowing, untamed, very bright, plasma-like liquid. (Umishiru, 2/20/12)
- Immortality/Youth Release- This release would be the opposite of Rust Release in that it deals with renewal, rebirth, and revival. It turns a broken and old object into a working and new object, and it also kick-starts a living being’s life force. While Health Release is like medical ninjutsu turned into an element, this would be like reincarnation ninjutsu turned into an element. (Umishiru, 2/22/12)
- Repair Release- This release would be the inorganic version of Health Release and the opposite of Disruption/Malfunction Release. While Health Release heals living things, this release restores damage done to non-living objects. (Umishiru, 2/27/12)
- Force Release- This release would allow the user to create an invisible, fluid-like force which can move things in a way similar to telekinesis. It can push, levitate, and block objects as well as create force fields. (GoDai, 3/9/12)
- Glow/Waste Release- This is the same as the Glow/Waste Release mentioned above, but in liquid form. (Umishiru, 3/20/12)
- Conduction Release- This release would allow for many versatile conduction techniques (184.108.40.206 suggested it on 3/20/12 and Charmanking2198 suggested it as lightning + water + yang on 3/21/12)
- Jet Release- This release allows one to compress an enormous amount of water and shoot it with immense piercing force. (Nrvnqsr Chaos, 6/18/12)
- Fluorescent or Dew Release- This release would be something of a liquid light, like a cross between Light Release and Storm Release. (Umishiru, 8/12/12)
- Unnamed space/force/telekinesis sort of thing release- This release would allow the user to levitate and manipulate anything within a specific area. (GoDai, 11/5/12)
- Life/Vital Release- This release would be the ultimate life element. (Umishiru, 11/25/2012)
- Separation/Divide/Split Release- This release would break up an element into its constituent parts, sort of like an un-fusion release. For instance, it would render an exploding tag harmless by reducing it to just ink and paper. (Umishiru, 11/25/12)
Hi, I was re-reading your amazing page but when I came to the Earth + [Element] grid, I was very confused.
You added non-canon natures, like swift, crystal and even dark release, but not steel.
Instead, you put the land release in place.
My question is, why not make these changes:
Earth + Yin: Steel release. Steel is purified earth. It's harder, colder, more firm. It's a more aggressive material as it is used in war many times. It's the more negative side of earth.
Earth + Yang: Crystal release. Crystals have always been perceived as one of nature's most beautiful creations. It represents the pure-side of earth, the more positive side.
I've added the movie natures because even as movie natures, they're higher in the canon hierarchy than anything I come up with. Steel used to be there before Yin and Yang appeared, before they appeared and made Blaze Release make sense without it being Fire + Fire. Steel was Earth + Earth before Yin and Yang came along. Crystals may come from nature, but the fact it has a precise structure was pointed out in the anime, so that's where Yin factors in. I felt it was better to tie into something already known about it. Land came along when I began making Yang combinations as stronger/bigger versions of the basic five by themselves. I think I had Steel there for a while before changing it, I'd have to check previous revisions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:34, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
I hope it doesn’t sound like we’re ganging up on Omnibender, but I mostly agree with Derigar. Some time ago I said Steel Release should be Earth + Yang, but I like Derigar’s idea too. As mentioned in the previous topic, the arguments I made concerning Steel Release were in the “What We Have So Far” section from February 2012. The points I made were 1) Steel Release should be inserted someplace and 2) it’s not too similar to the proposed Metal Release as they have different effects. Raidra (talk) 04:37, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
So, what do you think Omnibender? Does it need a change you feel? Adding all the currently known natures might be better than making a completely new one.
Combining Basic Natures with Kekkei Genkai?
Hello, Omnibender. I was wondering if maybe it was possible to combine basic natures (such as Water Release) with kekkei genkai (Ice Release). Water Release + Ice Release could probably make Nitrogen Release, or something similar. Please voice your opinion on this. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:41, January 17, 2013 (UTC)Anonymous
- Not something I would try, as a merger of an advanced nature with anything else has never been suggested possible. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:56, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
Adding the List of suggested natures
- If someone suggests me a nature for a spot I don't already have an idea, and I think it's a good enough idea, I'll certainly add it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:12, January 19, 2013 (UTC)
Earth + Yang = Steel
I believe that Steel is Earth + Yang. Land doesn't make much sense, no offense. You say that Land manipulates land not covered by water, but I believe that to be too broad for a specific element. I don't mean to be rude, but I just believe that Steel is a more logical combination. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:37, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
Help with an elemental idea?
Hey Omnibender, could you help me with this elemental combination here? I'm making a story and it makes heavy use of the elements. Yin + Nature = ???
- Nature the element of everything plant.
Yin + Nature would be a corrupted version of plant life. Also, can I use your ideas for two-part combinations and three-part combinations in my story? 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:17, February 28, 2013 (UTC)-
Differently, you can see an example of Nature+Yang use at Shodai's use of wood... Yang really power-up the speed trees grow. Yin + Nature = Poison, Yang + Nature = Life --126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:03, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
I'm trying to create a theory in which non-natured techniques that aren't derived from advanced chakra manipulation ( Rasengan in a mass of chakra rotating basically...) like Henge, Bunshin and Kawarimi are all derived from Yin and Yang: Yin -> Genjutsu, Perception-changing techniques and so Yang -> Medical jutsus, Corpse-changing techs, Barrier Ninjutsu and so. I wanted to ask: for you ( I'm asking it to all peoples here ) how I should categorize them? Starting from the basic techs, Henge and Bunshin seems to be Yin-related (maybe some Bunshin (like Kage Bunshin) are partly Yang-related), while Kawarimi is Yang-related. --HakuNoKaemi (talk) 10:15, March 4, 2013 (UTC)
Stick to the basics of what is known of yin and yang: if the technique has a more ethereal effect, it's yin, if it has a more physical, tangible effect, make it yang. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:39, March 5, 2013 (UTC)