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Any thoughts or suggestions?

Proof: Amaterasu is Fire Release (Databook)

I'll probably put more feedback later, but from the top of my head, I can give you a reference to something you used. Amaterasu is databook-confirmed Fire Release. See ShounenSuki's translation of Itachi's Transcription Seal: Amaterasu. One of the first sentences is that Amaterasu is the most powerful Fire Release technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. Finally, some solid confirmation. --GoDai (talk) 02:00, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

answers

Man, I have read "whole" page of yours and I must add we really think alike. What I meant as an enhancer is when the chakra is given properties of an element, when medium the chakra is changed into an element. So we both agree upon this except you say in KKG both are enhancer and medium but I say only 1 is enhancer and 1 medium : P You really have a brain. --Elveonora (talk) 08:00, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

  • Oil: I don' think its an element. Jiraiya when in Sage Mode is basically partially a frog/toad and they were shown to be related to oil. I think it's similar to Curse Seal/Mark or Tailed Beast Transformation since Killer B was shown spitting an ink due to his tailed beast being an octopus ... so spitting ink is related to Jiraiya's not perfect control over natural energy thus turning into a Toad.
  • To Shizune, it's possible she is like Hanzo. Maybe she has something similar as salamander's venom sac implanted.
  • Chakra Disruption Blades and Chakra Receiver's are basically due to Gedo Mazo ... it pinned Nagato with it and since then his body is able to create them. Since Pain's got them too, it's the same.
  • Deva Path's gravitation powers are basically Magnet Release on a bigger scale.

Chibaku Tensei is I think Magnet Release + Yin Release.

  • Asura's and Deva's powers are very similar since they use both use Magnetism.

The only difference is that Asura is half humanoid/half machine. So I say Nagato uses alike powers in both Deva and Asura.

  • Kimimaro's power are a mutation, no chakra transformed.
  • I think Kidomaru used Earth Release to change the strength and composition of his sweat. His sweat is kinda special ... something to do with him being like a spider :P Mutation/KKG or Oro's experiments.
  • Sand thing, yeah I agree Wind+Earth= Sand
  • Two Tail's body of blue flames is just it's form, nothing special.
  • For Steam it's Fire+Water
  • Bubble Release or something is Wind+Water
  • Konan uses a real paper infused with chakra, and her Dance of the Shikigami is basically a Combination Transformation with herself and her paper of chakra.
  • Sai uses Yang Release to bring his Ink painting to life.
  • Most characters used tools/body alternations to create the sound (Dosu,Zaku,Tayuya's flute is kinda magical) in case of Kin&Shima&Fukasaku, just a genjutsu ... so no Sound Release sorry :P
  • Dark Release is not canon
  • I agree that power to control the Beasts is not due to Wood Release. It's a unique ability to Hashirama's chakra. Tobi controlled the Kyubi with just a normal sharingan and not used any wood pillars to do so, suggesting that Hashirama's chakra enhanced Tobi's normal Sharingan's genjutsu.

Both Yamato and Hashirama possess Wood Release, though Yamato's control over Kyubi is inferior compared to Hashirama so it's not a Wood thing but rather Hashirama chakra's unique trait.

  • About Lava written differently, I think it's because in one case it's Fire+Earth (melted earth/magma) and in other Earth+Fire (fire with changed composition to be more sparse-tenuous/Lava)
  • Again my pattern, let me know which you think may be right:
  * Fire+Wind = Scorch (making wind release hot, evaporating water at a molecular level)
  * Wind+Fire = Laser (Sharp and Thin beams of fire)
  * Fire+Lighting = Flash (Lighting moving at speed of light)
  * Lighting+Fire = Heat (Highly vibrating waves of fire causing heat in weather)
  * Fire+Earth = Magma (Heated earth)
  * Earth+Fire = Lava (Fire with changed composition)
  * Fire+Water = Steam (Evaporating water)
  * Water+Fire = Boil/Acid (creating an acidic hot mist)
  * Wind+Lighting = Energy
  * Lighting+Wind = Explosion (Highly vibrating electrons [sparks] getting in contact with oxigen in a high air pressure causing an explosion)
  * Wind+Earth = Sand (wind cutting and shaping earth minerals into sand)
  * Earth+Wind = Crystal (Creating Crystals in the air from various compositions by increasing their density)
  * Wind+Water = Bubble (cutting and shaping water to create bubbles)
  * Water+Wind = Ice (making wind solid)
  * Lighting+Earth = Quake (vibrating thus shaking ground)
  * Earth+Lighting= Magnetism (increasing the potency of electrones)
  * Lighting+Water = Shock (rotating water under voltage)
  * Water+Lighting = Plasma/Storm Release (changing state and shape of electricity into beams of lighting)
  * Water+Earth = Mud (changing state of earth into liquid)
  * Earth+Water = Corrosion (increasing density and potency of water thus making the corrosion instant) 
  • Blaze pretty much as I said is Fire/Amaterasu+Yin
  • Can you comment on my Yin/Yang stuff ?
  • I think Kishi uses science.

--Elveonora (talk) 09:17, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Well glad you liked the page, although a lot of the ideas are really old and outdated right now, I don't always find the time to clean this place up.
  • For the section about "possible natures" I don't necessarily think they're natures, but I only listed them so I could use them for ideas later on. For example, obviously sound is not a nature in the cases we've seen so far. So what I would say for that section is, don't really think I'm trying to prove anything, I'm just listing out possibilities, mostly as notes for myself. Deidara's explosive chakra was in that section until it became a nature, so we never know, and that section acts as more like a reminder for myself.
  • For the Tailed Beast-related nature-like things, I'm being patient until Tobi and his Paths break out some techs.
  • I like to keep things in possibility as long as they're there. Movie natures such as Dark are only non-canon just because they're not in the manga yet; Kishi can always just take it and put it in if he wants. Remember, the characters identical to the ones from the movie were revived by Kabuto. Storm Release was actually premiered first in the movie, but Kishi took it and made his own version. Because something is non-canon right now certainly does not mean Kishi can just decide to put it in; they don't restrict him in any way.
  • I like your idea for Sai's techniques. I think it makes sense.
  • The Lava being written differently is the only thing that raises some doubt that there are only 10 combined elements. At the same time, becuase in Japanese they are hardly ever different, I've come to accept they are only different due to their village origins, or something like that. I really don't completely oppose the idea that there are 20 combinations, but at this moment in time, for me personally, there seems to be more pointing at 10 than the amount of hints pointing at 20. I don't oppose it, I might even change it if the manga points out even more hints.
  • The definition of Nature Transformation is any changes in the way chakra behaves, changes in its properties (I would actually like it better if it was called Property Transformation). Therefore, if someone's chakra acts in some way that normal chakra shouldn't, I think of it as a possiblity of nature transformation. Also, another way nature transformation seems to interpreted in the manga is "turning chakra into other elements" by giving normal chakra the same properties (color, mass, volume, phase, temperature, etc.) that the chosen element has. This one is a biggie, as it explains how changing the nature of your chakra allows you to breathe fire and spit water and earth, among other things. All that fire, earth, water, or whatever, is actually still made of chakra, just behaving differently. Remember when the Preta Path absorbed Sage Art: Goemon, and not only did it absorb chakra, it absorbed all of the oil, which shows that the oil was purely made out of chakra. This is the main reason Jiraiya's Toad Oil Bullet's databook entry describing it as "Jiraiya converts his chakra into oil" is important. Recently, the Second Mizukage was seen being able to manipulate an oily water (Simply referred to as oil in the chapter after probably for conciseness). I theorize that he did this by removing some properties (natures) of water from the water and adding some properties of oil. It's also possible that it was Yin Release being applied to Water Release. This could help describe how Jiraiya was turning his chakra into oil also, as the only way to turn chakra into another material is to give it the same set of properties possessed by that substance. In this case, the sticky and slippery feel, viscosity, flammability, color, etc. are all being applied to normal chakra, in order to convert it into oil. This also applies to Shizune's breathing of poisonous gas; if you see the databook entry, it clearly explains how she does it; she kneads her chakra into chemicals inside her body. This is also her giving her chakra poisonous, gaseous properties. While there are 5 major types of basic nature transformation, I find it possible that this is more of a spectrum of colors and that there are infinite varities of the "properties" one can give to their chakra. --GoDai (talk) 06:59, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
  • If I haven't answered some things, I'll try to answer them later, I do find myself quite busy at times. Maybe one topic at a time on this page in different sections would be more comfortable to see rather than my huge walls of text.

Ok, you can always check later :P Feel free to notice me about your theories/speculations. I thought the oil is due to sage mode, but now you are right ... he did that in his normal form. So then I guess its Water+Yin, and it even may be a hint since Mizukage has mentioned Yin Release : P --Elveonora (talk) 07:52, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. The whole reason I mentioned Yin Release being a part of it is because the Mizukage mentioned he's a user of Yin Release, but didn't even mention Water Release when he began. This may mean his Yin techniques and abilities are more significant, which in turn made me think the oily water, which is a big part of his abilities, was related. --GoDai (talk) 10:45, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Can you please reply on my yin yang stuff i posted to omni's page ? should be in swift release section, thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 12:00, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wow ... even your KKG theory is similar to what I'm about to post soon 0_o --Elveonora (talk) 11:49, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry I was away for the weekend at some conference. Would you mind posting the Yin-Yang ideas here as a separate topic? --GoDai (talk) 00:13, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yin and Yang

I see. Can you please once again explain me your "formula" how you think the advanced natures are selected ? Yes, Yin and Yang are not nature transformations since it's not elemental ... Thats why I guess it was removed from the Rinnegan. Yin and Yang are transformations of chakra but not into nature. My guess is that yin and yang are being used from the start without even us really noticing. Iruka said something at Chunin exams, and few more times it was mentioned but I dont remember the examples now. I think every not elemental technique uses yin and yang. For example:

   Shadow Clones its 3 Yin : 7 Yang
   Clone Technique 7 Yin : 3 Yang
   Genjutsu 10 Yin : 0 Yang
   Medical Ninjutsu 0 Yin : 10 Yang 

What Im trying to say is that every technique uses a different ammount of Yin compared to Yang. When Its "only" Yin, its a Yin Release Technique (Genjutsu). When its "only" Yang, its a Yang Release Technique (Medical Ninjutsu). When its 5:5 Yin and Yang, its a Yin-Yang Release (Izanagi and stuff).

Wood Release is still Water+Wood thus 2 elements but only Yang chakra is being used thus I see it something like:

   Yang+Water (Chakra able to change shape and state that gives life) enhancing earth as a medium, thus its earth given "life" (Wood). 

But in case of Yamato I think he uses Yin instead most of time ... its because:

   Except one technique, its wooden pillars instead of trees.
   Kabuto used him to strenghten Zetsu, and if he is the same as Hashirama then there would be no point because he is just a weaker "clone"
   Those with Hashirama's cells are said to physically boosted (given Yang energy)
   Yamato' wooden pillars changed into a trees with Kyubi's yang chakra, thats another reason I think when its pillars its Yin, when trees its Yang.

--Elveonora (talk) 10:58, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hm well you gotta remember, the word "nature" in "Nature Transformation" doesn't mean "nature and environment". It's the second definition here:[1], meaning "the innate characteristics of a thing". Yin and Yang are still natures of chakra, since the physical nature and spiritual natures are the very things that chakra is made of. For me it's not really a matter of whether it's elemental or not since they actually never use the word "elemental" in the original Japanese manga, we just commonly refer to the 5 chakra natures as "elemental chakra" because that's a somewhat accurate description for what they do. In fact, all the manga talks about is the different natures (meaning quality or characteristics or behavior) of chakra.

Your point about the wooden poles vs. actual living trees is a matter I brought up myself some while ago, although I decided that we haven't seen enough of Hashirama's techniques to decide that there was this difference with wood/trees. However, I do also have this idea that Yin and Yang in combinations may not need kekkei genkai, or some other exception like that. There is a a possibility of the "oily, slimy liquid" used by the Mizukage is something like Water+Yin, and Sasuke also used Blaze Release, which is also possible in not being a kekkei genkai. Application of Yin and Yang may not necessarily be Yin and Yang, as you say. However, I do find that Yin-Yang Release is definitely the sixth nature, since it was always referred to as such. Because of the importance Madara shows in being able to use Yin-Yang Release, this nature could be the actual kekkei genkai we're talking about, if that makes any sense. --GoDai (talk) 00:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I know, I meant it's not an element. And yes, yin+yang is like wood+water I mean kkg is most likely required to be able to combine them. --Elveonora (talk) 02:34, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hm yeah. I find it possible that incorporating Yin and Yang into any technique isn't anything unique, although I don't necessarily believe in this. Jiraiya converted his chakra into oil, which isn't one of the five basic natures. At the same time, as I say on my page, it can't be a kekkei genkai or anything unique because it's a ranked technique. It might either be just non-elemental, or incorporating Yin into Water or something like that. Because the Second Mizukage also recently used oil, and as I said earlier, when the Raikage and Mizukage were telling the shinobi about their abilities, Raikage said he uses Lightning Release and the Mizukage said he uses Yin Release, although soon we see him using Water Release as well. This makes me think the Yin is more important than Water as a key component in the type of techniques he uses the most: his oily water. --GoDai (talk) 23:51, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

And do you think I may be right with the stuff above that every non-elemental technique (elemental can as well) uses a different ammount of yin and yang and that only yin = yin release, only yang = yang release and balanced is yin-yang release ? And do you have some new theories except those already posted ? Can you check my talkpage as well and read:

and if ya got nerves and guts even the replies part as well ? some stuff there is outdated or no longer relevant since it was proven wrong but some parts may interest you like workings of transformation technique and i would like your comments on that, thanks.

Hmm well for your plot-related theories, I really don't have a strong opinion on those, although I did notice the possibility of Tobi actually being Izuna, with those proportions and stuff. However, there's still that chance of him being Obito, Kagami, another Madara, etc. Also, could you tell me where you got the Yin-Yang propertion things for medical ninjutsu and genjutsu and such? --GoDai (talk) 03:33, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

What d0 y0u mean from where I got that ? Same as your theories, observation and and not afraid to use brain. Also Tobi being Obito is like saying Naruto and Gaara are brothers. You, know ... Uzumaki red hair, same age, heigt and weight ... Tobi being Izuna or Kagami is most likely ... but I'm much closer to Izuna. --Elveonora (talk) 04:20, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry I thought you said that you got those Yin-Yang ratio things from the manga, I didn't know if it was just your idea. Also, I really don't have a strong opinion on anything for the plot. I didn't say Tobi being Izuna is wrong, I didn't say Tobi being Obito is right. I just said it's always a possibility. And you know, it's really not the exact same because Gaara is not some masked guy that we don't know where he came from. We all know about Gaara's birth to every last detail now. Unless Kishimoto does something crazy and says something like they implanted Uzumaki DNA inside him or something, there is no uncertainty. Compared to that Tobi is simply unknown. Maybe even Kishimoto doesn't know who he is yet. Although you brought up many good points for your Izuna theory, there are plenty of excellent theories for other possibilities too. Don't get me wrong, I seriously don't think he is Obito. But I like to stay open-minded, even if it means I don't have a very strong opinion. I gotta admit there are a lot of good proofs for several sides of the argument. --GoDai (talk) 01:41, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

If Tobi is not Izuna, I will cut off my head and send it to you ... Just more than my bet, I think what I posted are enough connections. Also what do you think about him using chakra chains in latest chap ? Was not that Kushina thingy ? --Elveonora (talk) 02:26, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I thought that the moment I saw that too. It seems Tobi not only has the First's cells, the Sharingan, and the Rinnegan, but also Kushina's "special chakra" that was mentioned several chapters ago... I'm wondering if it's an ability that many Uzumaki had. It seems it's not just the two (Wood Release and Sharingan) that help control Tailed Beasts, but also these chains. They may be part of the "completion" Tobi wants to achieve, full control of the Tailed Beasts. --GoDai (talk) 04:49, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe he cut off and took Kushina's arm for the one Minato damaged :P --Elveonora (talk) 16:55, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Theories of Kekkei Genkai and Advanced Natures?

Wow. Your theories intrigue me. I have my own thoughts and (stupid) theories related to the variety of Advanced Natures and Kekkei Genkai.

The first is that two Kekkei Genkai could possibly share the same elements, but differ in which element is a major part and which is a minor. For instance, with Ice Release, one would naturally assume that Water is the major element as ice is frozen water, and with Wood Release, Earth is the major element as it's impossible for trees to grow without soil of some sort. Perhaps Advanced Natures whose elements we don't know yet utilize the same as previously shown ones...just with a difference of what enhances what and which element is more majorly needed. Explosion Release may utilize Earth and Fire like Lava Release, but utilizes the Earth element more than Fire.

The second is that the differences in the mutant/special genes of a Kekkei Genkai user could change the resulting Advanced Nature created, even if they share the same base elements as another Kekkei Genkai. --66.248.166.73 (talk) 05:02, December 5, 2011 (UTC)BlueRoses

Well the major and minor component thing sounds extremely similar to what I'm saying in the page. While the second part of that is pretty interesting, I personally don't find it very likely at the moment, since we've only seen one possibility for each major element. But I'm always open-minded, since Kishi could always switch around which element enhances which, if he actually runs out of nature ideas. --GoDai (talk) 03:35, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Soap Bubble Ninjutsu

You are right O_O Any more theories ? :D --Elveonora (talk) 00:44, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hello Godai, I was wondering if we could bring up your soap bubble-alkaline theory in Utakata's talkpage as a way for him to be connected to the Six-Tails. Joshbl56 01:10, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. It was just a random thought I had. We still don't have confirmation to make that a fact, although I do plan to post it on this page right now. I think each of the beasts have some sort of substance, although I have no idea if they're all elements, or just element-like abilities.
One - Sand, Two - Fire (Blue fire? All its attacks use red fire), Three - Coral (It seems Water Mirror is just Yagura's jutsu), Four - Lava (This one is the only one definitely an element), Five - Steam (Unconfirmed), Six - Alkali, Seven - Insect Scales (not sure if this is the element, could be something else), Eight - Ink, Nine - ???. I'm hoping Naruto will get some epic ninjutsu ability rather than just the Yang chakra and Evil-sensing thing.

I would love to post the idea, but I don't like posting ideas until they're definitely true. I'm just glad that Bubbles weren't the main ability of the Slug, it would've been pretty flat and boring for me. I always had thought the Six-Tails was providing something that Utakata could mix water, which many ninja can make, with it to blow bubbles. I should've guessed earlier that it would be the alkaline substance that was forming the soap. --GoDai (talk) 04:45, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I know that it's still a theory but we have theories on the trivia for tailed beast skill which mentions Utakata's bubble ninjutsu as something that might be connected to the Six-Tails. This might help out a little with that section (I know I jumped sections but I was reading the trivia their and thought it would probably be better put).
Also, for the seven-tails, I think it's main 'element' is Beetle/Bugs as it has used both insect scales and bug bites. We will just have to wait and see what happens when/if Fu changes into the Seven-Tails. Joshbl56 05:01, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm while I'm considering it, I'll just see how well accepted by some users it is for now. And as for the Seven-Tails, I know that's its theme, but I'm expecting something more amazing :P. And yeah, I'm not sure how all of these will relate to the natures we have now, besides Lava. They might just end up like Spider Sticky Gold, Shikotsumyaku, Sai's jutsu, and all those other things that control substances with chakra. --GoDai (talk) 05:19, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Another cool possibility is if the acidic effects of Boil Release was used to subdue the Six-Tails by neutralizing its alkali when it went rampant, like how Gold Sand was used on Shukaku. But eh, who knows. --GoDai (talk) 03:16, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

wood release,tobi/izuna and so6p,ten-tails/gedo mazo

Hello, do you think Hashirama is really the origin ? There was some convo on this in so6p talkpage. I believe it originates from Ten-Tails, making so6p an user as well. Also what do you think Sage looked like, have you ever imagined him? Also do you think he get the Rinnegan after or before he became a host ? Had he sharingan as well ?

Also to that what I have posted on my talkpage, I have some more proofs Tobi is Izuna. Tobi's and Izuna's and also Madara's eyebrows, eyes, ears and base of hair are the same.

And what do you think about Gedo Mazo being Ten-Tails, have you read/heard something on this ? I support that ... also, Thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 02:45, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well on Wood Release, I am quite certain there's something else going on. But in that case, I would also question the reason why the Sage of the Six Paths would have Wood Release. It makes sense, since how Madara, Tobi, and Danzō all gained the First's cells to become like the So6P, and in turn also gained the element Wood. The Ten-Tails and the So6P relationship is really a vague matter for me to make any assumptions, but I do see the strong possibility that it will have the eye. I have this idea that Tailed Beast Abilities will mix with the host's chakra and be passed on, seeing how sand manipulation remained within Gaara, and how people other than the Four-Tails have Lava Release (The original host of the Four-Tails may have lived in a very early period, and therefore his ancestors are in numerous villages?). This could mean the Rinnegan actually came from the beast, but that would mean the Sage was truly that powerful. I've also seen many theories of the statue begin the Ten-Tails. I personally think the statue could contain the new body of the beast, since the old one is sealed within the moon, and the chakra of the Tailed Beasts combined within it will somehow break it open and release the Ten-Tails (just my imagination.). And for the Tobi is Izuna theory, like I said earlier it's probably the most viable theory, but I wouldn't be too surprised if he wasn't Izuna either. I hope these answers make you content ^^. --GoDai (talk) 01:34, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

You can call me crazy but ... So6p's blood/power was separated into 2 = younger/elder son thus their successors being uchiha/senju/uzumaki and possibly hyuga as well but thats just assumption. But due to the link of Sharingan being related to Byakugan, I can see it. Also Kin&Gin are said to be related to So6p, meaning blood of the 2 sons was divided into more than just 3-4 clans since I don't see Kin&Gin being Senju or Uzumaki (Hyuga or Uchiha are out of question) but its possible for them to be ... it's like 50/50 for me now ... but as they are from Kumogakure, its not very likely so a different So6p related clan is more possible.

Evil guys are after Hashirama's power. Sharingan/Uchiha blood + "Hashirama's power" make up together power of the So6p. If not, that would mean any random Senju would provide everything needed for an Uchiha to become "So6p" like I gave the example of using Tobirama's flesh instead. When you separate something (100%) into two halves(50/50) it makes sense that combining the two will make up the original/full thing again, because if Hashirama is the original source that would mean its a new mutation so by logic I don't see how Hashirama's power would make up with Sharingan/Uchiha blood the power of So6p. Basically meaning So6p by common sense had Wood Release as well, and seeing how he was Hashirama's ancestry, I think it's possible for it to appear generations later. Also another thing I have noticed is that Gedo Mazo is made from Wood, but that might be cause it's sucking chakra or something from Hashirama Clone Flower.

There are quite a few possibilities related to So6p and Ten-Tails:

  • #1 Sage had Rinnegan before, it's original eye being the "Sharingan" (but this does not explain the Rinnegan pattern over it's eye, the theory being Sage had it under genjutsu. But since there are not any genjutsu powers attributed to Rinngegan, I see this highly unlikely ... also even if so and So6p's Rinnegan had some genjutsu powers, I don't see him being "that" strong to bind Ten-Tails with genjutsu since Sharingan is highly associated with it making the beast resilient.
  • #2 Sage's original KKG is Sharingan ... shocked ? Well, would make more sense to bind Ten-Tails in genjutsu, making the Rinnegan the Ten-Tail's eye.

And it would make more sense for "sharingan/uchiha blood+hashirama's power=So6p" also notice that Hashirama's power is of course Wood Release and it's power to control the Tailed Beasts ... Unless Wood Release and controlling the beasts are 2 separate powers that Hashirama has possessed. So Sharingan being not related to Sage is weird cause then combining the 2 would not result in Sage's power but only in a half ... and for theory, making both Sharingan and Wood Release originate from Ten-Tails = obtaining the power of Ten-Tails, not Sage. Unless they do attribute Sage's power to being a host of Ten-Tails, nothing less nothing more.

  • #3 Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan or a combination of both, and possibly Wood Release/Control Beasts power as well (this would make him TRULY GODLY imo) but I don't see it since, then he is lame in my eyes using the strongest godly/heavenly/hax tools against a poor tiny "Beast"
  • #4 Sage had none, and all 3 do originate from Ten-Tails ... possibly !
  • #5 Sage's original KKG being Byakugan (Im serious) ... really, where does the Byakugan fit ? ? ?

Also comments made on Sage's talkpage in topic i started:

  • Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ? I think it's a speculation.--Elveonora
  • The problem with that statement is that we've only seen him with the Rinnegan. Joshbl56
  • I don't understand how the two incidents are related? The eldest son wouldn't have inherited a dōjutsu if that were the case, tailed beast skills aren't hereditary.--Cerez365™
  • Are you sure ? Naruto and Gaara are affected by their Tailed Beasts and tell this to Uchiha. Ten-Tails has eye that looks like Sharingan, if having a tailed beast is not hereditary, then there would be no Sharingan in Uchiha. Unless Sage had Sharingan as well. --Elveonora

So people do oppose Sage having a Sharingan. This automatically do mean that it came from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast traits are hereditary. But there's this issue with final level of Sharingan being a Rinnegan ... so let's say Sage really had a combination of both ... so Ten-Tail had no special eye then ? ? ? : (

But theres this thing with Madara being able to switch between the two. This is not confirmed, but lets say Hashirama's power is responsible for EMS turning into Rinnegan. This does however mean that Uchiha are not capable of awakening it by "natural" means, only by taking the DNA of their brother clan ... this mean that Sage was capable of switching between the two, because Madara's eyes have not turned into Rinnegan he still can use both. You can make milk into a cream, but you can't drink it like a milk then. Neither you can turn cream back into a milk ... meaning Sharingan is not a devolution/degradation of Rinnegan, neither Rinnegan being the evolution/higher level. But even if it is, it again just PROVE one of the options from my theories cause if its so, and Sage had Rinnegan ... he had to awake it from Sharingan. So again I dont see this option, but whatever option Im still right in the context of logic based off what we know ; ) But Im not gonna be surprised if im wrong in the context of whats unknown to us.

The things that makes the most sense oppose themselves ... so what do you think ?

Also let's say that Gedo Mazo is Ten-Tails, or some sort of artificial body for it. Notice it has 10 broken branches/outgrowths on it's back. Not to say 9 eyes. Let's saying sealing the 9 beasts would result in turning of the 9 eyes into 1 and growing 10 "tails" from the broken parts. That would be a masterful move by Kishi for us to wonder what the Ten-Tails looked like basically showing it us all the time :D Also sealing the beasts into it to turn it into its original state/form.

Also note: lets say for example Wood Release came from Ten-Tails ... makes sense for power to control the tailed beasts coming from the original "Beast"

And if Tobi is not Izuna, I will cut off my head and send it to you. The 2 most possible candidates are Izuna and Kagami ... but its like 70/30 in turn for Izuna compared to Kagami.

--Elveonora (talk) 06:50, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Wow that was a lot to read and answer. Could you please keep them short, so I can also answer short? When your questions are long my answers are usually longer ^^ .
  • Well first of all, I would like to say don't overlook recessive genes and traits "appearing generations later" as you said. Someone might carry a certain gene, but not receive its effects. I actually do think the Sage probably had Wood Release, but it's very possible he only had the genes and they didn't have any effect inside him. Wood Release is not a new mutation, but that doesn't mean the Sage used it.
  • Also, this is also why I don't think there is a problem with using Tobirama's flesh. I'm sure you can still use a random Senju. If Izanagi is forbidden, that means someone must have tried it out, probably using the DNA of someone other than Hashirama. Every Senju still carries all the genes, but different ones are dominant and recessive, creating different effects in all members, and therefore different talents. Why do people always use Hashirama's DNA and not Tobirama's? That's because he has the Senju blood, with the bonuses of the rare Wood Release kekkei genkai and Tailed Beast manipulation. If you want to use Izanagi, you could get any Senju's blood, but you won't get Hashirama's other abilities.
  • The Uzumaki were distant relatives of the Senju. Maybe one of the Senju ancestor's children was a daughter that married someone from a completely different clan (just random possibility example). Kinkaku and Ginkaku are the same (distant descendants); the Sage probably has thousands of distant descendants. His children had children and they had children, and not all of the children may have stayed within the clan. The moment that happens, they may begin or enter a completely different clan that are "distant relatives". I wouldn't be too surprised if one of my friends turned out to be a distant descendant of George Washington.
  • Also, remember the Uchiha clan ancestor had some spiral-looking eyes. It's believed that the Sharingan are only a derivative of the Rinnegan. It's not exactly inferior or weaker; rather, the Rinnegan without the Senju-based half probably resulted in this Sharingan ancestor, and it developed its own unique characteristics as time went by. This would explain why the Rinnegan cannot use all of the Sharingan's abilities; although the Sharingan is missing a "half", it has developed on its own over time. I don't think Kabuto meant that the Sharingan would just evolve into the Rinnegan on its own; it's probably all those years that passed after Madara implanted Hashirama's cells into his chest. The Senju blood and chakra mixed inside him, and when it was equally spread out through his body, his eyes had the Sage's chakra, and could awaken into the Rinnegan. This is probably what Kabuto meant when he said "evolution".
  • About the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, it's most likely the body of the Ten-Tails, or containing it. It doesn't have exactly 10 tails, but remember, the Ten-Tails also had spikes on its back. The theory for the statue being the body is basically everywhere on the internet, these details don't really surprise me at all.
  • Also, I'm going to add a theory on the Sage and the Ten-Tails soon.

But really, one topic at a time please, if you post so many questions, answers become longer and longer ><.... And just in case Tobi isn't Izuna, please don't send me your head ^^. Also, I probably didn't answer everything clearly, ask if there are ones not answered (one at a time). --GoDai (talk) 05:49, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry and yes. It's not that long, I'm used to read a lot so ... ; )

  • How could possibly Sage look like ? Since his 2 sons are like egg and ham, it's kinda hard to imagine.

Maybe Omni would be able to answer with Biology ... Uzumaki's most common colour of hair is red. Uchiha and Hyuga colours are dark, black and brown and Senju are hard to say but anime coloured it as black, brown, dark and white. Taking into account the most common colours and traits other than hair ... what could Sage possibly look like ? Of course it is impossible to say, but at least eye and hair colour. I'm trying to fit something into that silhouette, but whatever I try ... I'm not satisfied.

  • What's with Hyuage and Byakugan ... related to Sage or Ten-Tails somehow ?
  • I read ur theory ... very good one, you are the best I met so far ^_^

So Ten-Tail's eye - hatred = Rinnegan just like Kyubi's chakra in Naruto Uzumaki's body - hatred changed it's characteristics ?

  • That brought me to ... why the hell Naruto's chakra makes up a silhouette of Sage, even Kyubi saying something about Sage upon seeing it ?
  • Oh, so ur assuming already it's Hashirama's face on Madara's chest ? I think so as well ... but, is it a doing of Kabuto or Madara's own ?
  • You somwhere mentioned that Wood Release and power to control beasts are 2 powers, I think it's possible.
  • Oh, and everyone oppose Karura being a host ... what do you think ?

I don't think that controlling sand is power of Shukaku at all ... when he changed into full form, he has not used any sand at all, only through Gaara. I think Gaara inherited power to control Shukaku from Karura and Magnet Release as well from father. When 4th Kazekage use sand his eyes have those rings like Gaara's. Chiyo commenting he is compatible. So in short, Shukaku's power/a binding to it's power(mother) + Magnet Release(father) turned into a new ability "sand control"

  • Konohamaru's and Tsunade's parents ? Tsunade is both Uzumaki and Senju but unknown to what extent ... does not she have "power of younger son" then ?
  • Orochimaru being Nawaki's sensei
  • your ending prediction ... is Sasuke really evil ? Will he come back to senses ? Are Naruto or Sasuke gonan get Rinnegan ? What Tobi want to do with Sasuke ? Who will die in the end ?

Thanks for ur time ^_^

--Elveonora (talk) 09:41, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, seeing the Sage's silhouette, I usually imagine a guy hat has a face like Hashirama and Madara combined, and probably black hair, seeing his sons. He probably had white hair by the time of his death. I mean, maybe his wife had black hair and he had some other color. We really can't tell, but black hair is a good guess. I also have no idea about eye color, but I think it would've been black. Uchiha an activate and deactivate their Sharingan, and it's black when deactivated. The Sage would've only activated the Rinnegan when tapping into the Ten-Tails' powers, so I would guess it was some other color, maybe black, when deactivated.
There's too many possibilities for the Byakugan at the moment for me. But let's think of a imaginative example:
  • The Uchiha clan ancestor had many children, but one of them (having some kind of dōjutsu similar to the Sharingan ancestor at the moment) departed to some other area in the world, and married normal people with normal eyes. Over hundreds of years, perhaps the eye went through a series of mutations, and formed the less-hateful Hyūga clan. Meanwhile, the other children stayed with the family, and married people in the area. This would've kept the Uchiha blood thick and less mixed, leading to the direct evolution of the Sharingan through hate. It should be noted that the Hyūga used to place strong emphasis on the older children being of the Main House, possibly relating to the grudge of the older son.
Since the Sage created the Tailed Beasts with the Creation of All Things ability, I think he just created their shapes and gave them emotions and intelligence, and then put some of the Ten-Tails' chakra and hate inside them afterwards. As we saw with Son Gokū, the Eight-Tails, and Kurama, they are not just mindless beings of hate, actually quite the opposite. Different from how they were first introduced in the manga, the Tailed Beasts are quite understanding of things. To me, it seems that he Sage was unable to erase the hatred inside the Ten-Tails because it is just raw, pure hatred. However, the fox's hatred is not a pure hatred; it seems more closer to an anger toward humans and how they treated him as a destructive weapon, either hating him or using him. So I think Naruto will be able to possibly erase this kind of hatred, since it isn't just pure hatred, but rather a kind of hatred that the fox developed on its own. Right now, Naruto isn't really suppressing its hate like the Sage did, he's really taking it away and getting rid of it. I think this is what the Eight-Tails, and maybe the Four-Tails, went through.
About the new seal and what the fox said about the Sage of the Six Paths. The fox didn't say "Rikudō" when Naruto transformed. He said it when Naruto used the seal on him. This probably means that the seal is the one that the Sage used, maybe to suppress the Ten-Tails. It's either that:
  • every host uses this inside their subconscious to suppress the beast completely,
or:
  • Naruto is able to use this because of his Uzumaki lineage.
It probably has something to do with the"key" that Minato left behind for Naruto to use. Maybe Minato somehow figured out the Sage's technique.

Other than that:

  • I am sure Madara implanted Hashirama's cells into himself soon after his faked "death" at the Valley of the End. I see no other reason why he would awaken the Rinnegan before his real death years later. We are all sure that he lived long enough to meet Nagato, which also means that the real Madara was really alive in the time Jiraiya was alive too. It it even possible that the "eyes" that Tobi claims he gave to Nagato actually were Madara's eyes, taken after his death. If this is true, then Madara planned it. As soon as he was revived, he thinks Nagato revived him with Rinne Tensei, suggesting that this was all a plan.
  • I don't think Karura was the host, because the beast was implanted into Gaara before his birth. Kushina had a beast while giving birth, and it was extracted, and sealed back into Naruto. The same thing didn't happen with Karura; she would have died if they extracted the beast first, and the beast wouldn't have survived if she died.
  • Also, I actually think sand control is Shukaku's power. The Third Kazekage studied the previous host of Shukaku to invent Iron Sand control. I find it quite unlikely that the exact same thing as what happened to Gaara happened to the previous host. However, Karura's will somehow lives inside Gaara. This is actually NOT as new as most people think. If you go back all the way to Chapter 130 page 8 in Part I, Yashamaru actually says that Shukaku uses sand to attack, but the automatic Shield of Sand is a result of Karura's will, preventing Gaara from being hurt. It may have something to do with Magnet Release, but my theory at the moment doesn't believe that. Of course, you can read about my idea for Sand Manipulation on the actual page. Also, I talked about Chiyo saying he was compatible somewhere else, but we're not sure how that works yet. It might also be a myth: The previous Eight-Tails host said that all a jinchūriki needed was love.
  • One of Tsunade's parents was half Senju and half Uzumaki. If the other parent was neither, then Tsunade would only be quarter Senju and quarter Uzumaki. I would say tthe blood is too thin to take major effect, but in general it could explain her talent for medical ninjutsu, and how she seems to have substantial longevity and vitality. This may also be why it's never strongly stated she's a Senju. Also, you should remember that the Uzumaki were distantly related: This means that they have a whole lot of other DNA mixed in. The part of the Sage's DNA isn't as pure as the SSenju's which is why they are a separate clan.
  • Orochimaru is Nawaki's sensei? What makes you think that?
  • Well, if Kishi decides to make Sasuke good again, it would have to be very gradual, maybe even more gradual than Kurama's change. Also, he should be careful, since Sasuke has a lot of popularity for being a cool "avenger". Probably in some final epic fight, either both will die or neither will die. If both die, that's the end of Naruto as we know it, since reviving them would be very lame. If they both live, I guess Sasuke could help kill Tobi and do something about Kabuto, possibly giving him the chance to return to Konoha. This would also require Sasuke to forgive the elders and help in reestablishing peace or something like that. Also, Rinnegan has been overused, so giving it to Naruto or Sasuke would be pretty disappointing. --GoDai (talk) 01:55, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Answered Jan 10 2012

  • Are you sure Sage had wife ? He was a monk/priest after all ... more like his sons being created with COAT
  • Also I have a thought about one thing ... everyone says Naruto's whiskers are a result of Kyubi's chakra.

Mito had no whiskers, Kushina had no whiskers, Minato had no whiskers after sealing Yin half of the chakra into himself. So if you as well believe it's from Kyubi and due to Naruto being exposed to the chakra while still developing in the womb ... Kin&Gin were mature by that time ... Shukaku was sealed into Gaara before he was born. How can you seal something into a child in a womb ? It goes through the mother, unless Shukaku was already in Karura. But here is the interesting question, they sealed Shukaku into Gaara by some unknown means or right through previous host Karura ... but what then Chiyo meant by saying he is compatible ? He said that after he was born, so what would be the point of sealing Shukaku into Gaara if he was not compatible ? Does this mean they tried it on more children without a success ? (children died before being born) but then again Temari and Kankuro are alive. That's why I think "he is compatible" has nothing with Shukaku but Magnet Release. Also I don't think either the eyes or whiskers are result of tailed beasts.

  • Also I have a theory about for what purpose Minato sealed the Yin half into himself and Yang one into Naruto.

It was said that when a host dies, the beast is set free. But in Naruto's case it's he dies, Kyubi dies. Isn't this to prevent Kyubi from being revived after Naruto's death ? Basically ruining Tobi's plans right from the start, but it looks like he knows that since he took Kin&Gin along with Kyubi's Yin chakra in them.

Another reason is cause Minato knew something we don't and look at the result. Naruto using Kyubi's Yang chakra as his own with the new seal = So6p mode Younger son got Sage's yang ... Uzumaku as descendants of this younger son possess Sage's yang chakra as well but watered down. Sage's watered down yang chakra increased in power with Kyubi's yang chakra = original Sage's yang chakra.

I think as well that the seal Naruto used is the same as Sage had. I think it works by purifying the chakra of hatred and using it as the host's own. Ie. Kyubi's chakra transforming into Naruto's own chakra combining strength and uniqe properties of both host and beast.

Also I have a theory Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan, being able to switch between the two just like Madara. When using just Ten-Tail's Yin chakra with the seal, he activated Sharingan. When using just Ten-Tail's Yang chakra with the seal, he activated Rinnegan. When both, it was the all seeing eye/eye of god/whatever for the use of Creation of all thing technique.

  • Also, does this mean I was right and "that technique" J-man told Naruto not to use = Torii Seal ?

So J-man taught Naruto sealing techniques in timeskip ? Maybe you read the topic I started about it, please read link it all when you get some free time ; )

  • But if he had that Hashirama's face on chest along with Wood Release before death, why did he look at his chest and said he wants to try something out (wood release) ?

He said that Kabuto has prepared.

  • Well, if you believe my Izuna theory ... Madara's eyes are in fact Izuna's to begin with.

So the real Madara giving eyes to Nagato, Izuna pretending to be Madara thus speaking about himself as "Madara" and he himself giving Nagato the Rinnegan is not really a lie, since Madara's eyes were really his.

  • Studied previous host of Shukaku to invent Iron Sand control, ie. Magnet Release
  • Actually you are right ... Maybe Tsunade's advanced transformation stemms from being both Senju and Uzumaki ... also that would explain her longevity and vitality for such age, you are right.

Maybe I just expected some hax no jutsu or something, but we might see her full power in Kages vs Madara if we are lucky.

  • Orochimaru was with Nawaki there as he died. He also kinda mourned his death in anime only to joke about it later.

Not to mention we have seen just Anko, he must had 2 others. The part about Orochimaru being his sensei is in Nawaki's article as well.

  • I don't think Rinnegan is overused more than Sharingan tbh :P

So one of them awakening it is possible ... most likely Sasuke coming to senses and sacrificing himself for Naruto, with Naruto taking Sasuke's EMS and mourning Sasuke's death and in a wave of anger turning it into Rinnegan defeating Tobi/Izuna and Madara ; )

  • Do you think Oro is gonna comee back ?

Thats all for now, thanks and sorry. --Elveonora (talk) 09:39, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


Ah, another long list to read and answer. Here goes:

  • Eh, I heard that monks in Japan often marry and have children, and this Sage isn't exactly the type of sage we refer to in real life either. So I'm pretty sure he had a wife.
  • The whiskers do darken and become wider and more intense as Naruto releases the Nine-Tails' chakra. And saying Kinkaku and Ginkaku just happened to have whiskers seems pretty illogical. My theory for now is that Mito and Kushina's seals may have not involved their chakra mixing with the Nine-Tails, just containing it inside, while in Naruto's case, Minato arranged the seal in an unusual way so that it would mix with his normal chakra naturally. Kinkaku and Ginkaku ate the chakra meat of the Nine-Tails, which could also explain how the chakra mixed with their own (They didn't seal the meat into themselves), and therefore how they have whiskers.
  • I also asked ShounenSuki about compatibility before, it's on my wall. It's suggested that compatibility isn't about surviving the sealing, but more about how well the host controls the beast. There were exactly three jinchūriki of Shukaku from Sunagakure so far, including Gaara, and Chiyo says Gaara is the first compatible one. The chapter was about Gaara's father figuring out if Gaara could maintain his emotions without releasing Shukaku, meaning his degree of control. Oh and the original copy left it vague, so we don't know if they're talking about Temari and Kankurō, or if they're talking about the previous hosts.
    • Chiyo says: "You do understand that it's already the third one and finally finally a compatible one, right? It seems we have no choice but to raise this child with great care." (「三人目にしてやっと適合できると分かったのじゃ。この子を大切に育てていくしかあるまい」, Sanninme ni shite yatto tekigō dekiru to wakatta no ja. Kono ko o taisetsu ni sodatete iku shika aru mai). It does seem like there's some form of compatibility involved. Kumo also had problems with their jinchūriki, after all, so maybe they simply weren't compatible either. As it has been stated that the Second Kazekage was the first to start doing research on the jinchūriki, it might be that Suna simply has the knowledge required to figure out who is compatible and who isn't. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 02:09, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
  • I personally don't think Gaara has Magnet Release, because in the simplest idea, magnetism doesn't affect normal sand. As for gold, Kishi probably made a slight error, since it is generally perceived that metals are magnetic (and gold is slightly diamagnetic). Iron makes perfect sense, and I think for the effect of Magnet Release: Magnet Shuriken, I think it could be something like magnetizing the target's iron in their blood or something (since we already saw the Kubikiribōchō do stuff with hemoglobin). I mean, sand might work, but if Gaara could use Magnet Release, I think we would have seen him do some more stuff with the nature.
  • I'm not too sure if Karura was the host. If she was, I think she would've died the moment it wasn't inside her anymore, and we have no idea how passing a beast from mother to child works. We can't do anything to bring this one out of speculation for now.
  • While only the Nine-Tails has emphasized the fact that he will die when Naruto dies, Akatsuki emphasized capturing the hosts alive, so I'm guessing the other beasts also would have died when their hosts died. The only beast that wouldn't have died when its host died is the Ten-Tails.
  • I think you may be onto something with the Yang chakras combining to form the Sage's Yang chakra, but I'm not sure, since like I said many times already, the Uzumaki's blood relation to the Sage isn't as strong as the Senju's, since they're distant relatives, meaning they're something like a different branch with other bloods mixed in. I understand that they'd probably also have Yang chakra and stuff, but it would probably be a variation, since genetics isn't as simple as addition and subtraction. Not considering the "completion of the Sage's Yang chakra", it would at least be well-supported to say that Naruto's natural heritage allows him to make better use of the Nine-Tails' Yang chakra.
  • The "switching eyes" idea could work, and is very possible, but for now I will stick to my own theory. If I restate my theory in different words, the "eye of the beast" has three parts: Uchiha, Senju, and the Ten-Tails' hatred. Of course, Uchiha and Senju are only parts of the power of the "Six Paths", so it actually had only two parts in the beginning. After the Sage sealed the Beast into himself, he suppressed its hatred (so it was still there, just sealed inside), leaving only the "Six Paths" part (not divided yet). His sons would get each half of the "Six Paths", known as Uchiha and Senju. His younger son would get his willpower, and his older son would get his powerful chakra. I think for the older brother, the sealed hatred came along with his Uchiha half, and the seal was broken by hatred over the history of the Uchiha. So in conclusion,
    • Rinnegan is something like Uchiha + Senju (Original Hatred sealed)
    • Sharingan is something like Uchiha + New Hatred (No Senju, obvs.)
  • ^That's why I really don't think the Sage ever used Sharingan; he could use the eye of the beast, but he sealed the hatred because he didn't want to use such a cursed power. The Sage actually removed a part of the original eye to get the Rinnegan, but Madara already had the Sharingan in the highest level possible and gained the Senju portion, which allowed him to evolve his eyes into the Rinnegan. The Sage could probably release the hatred to use the eye of the beast, but the Senju and Uchiha were always together inside him, known as the power of the Six Paths; the two halves didn't even exist until his sons were born.
  • I'm thinking it's the same kind of seal that the Sage used, but the result is slightly different. As a main visual for example, the Sage never befriended the Ten-Tails and made him good, he could never erase its hatred because it was pure hatred with no cause. I think Tobi's description of the creation of the Tailed Beasts was inaccurate and biased: The Tailed Beasts, like Son Gokū, talk about their status as a Tailed Beast and their relationship with the Sage as if they had been given the job to hold a portion of the Ten-Tails' chakra and hatred. The Nine-Tails' hatred is not pure hatred because it has a cause: Humans other than the Sage did not see him for what he was, and only treated him like a destructive monster, and people like Madara only came to control and use him. The Ten-Tails' hatred may have been just raw hatred, but the other Tailed Beasts' "hatred" isn't really the same kind; it's much more mild and they have a reason to hate humans. Therefore, the Ten-Tails' hatred could only be suppressed and could not be erased, but the Tailed Beasts' hatred can be erased, I think.
  • I actually think "that technique" might still be unknown. While there's a huge

chance that the new technique is just he new seal, there's still a possibility that it is actually other things, maybe stuff we know (like the Tailed Beast Rasengan) or something we don't know, like some uber-powerful ninjutsu. The other "that technique" that Jiraiya told Naruto not to use is probably something else that Naruto would have really known about. The two "that technique"s are different, in my opinion.

  • Madara has never been revived before (first time for everyone, lol), so he might have been checking if he could still use the abilities he gained in his life. When Madara says Kabuto has prepared well, he's probably saying that he has prepared well for the war, like what Mū said when Madara was revived, saying that whoever revived them (Kabuto) must have prepared well for the war, even having gotten his hands on Madara's DNA. When Kabuto says that Madara is even more powerful than he was in life, I don't think that means new abilities, but rather just boosts in the abilities that he already has. If this is entirely wrong and the Hashirama cells have been added by Kabuto himself, I have no idea how he awakened the Rinnegan, since that is the power of the Sage.
    • My backup theory is that the Uchiha have the potential to awaken the Sage's eyes, the Rinnegan, and that the Senju have the potential to awaken his body (probably some other power). However, this theory is incomplete, and I really don't feel like developing such an idea until my original idea is proved to be incorrect.
  • And yeah, the fact that "Tobi" gave the Rinnegn to Nagato does imply that he gave Madara's transformed eyes to him, but since Nagato was not the original user of the eyes, he apparently could not deactivate them by his own will (like how Kakashi cannot deactivate the Sharingan), explaining why Nagato cannot use the Eternal Mangekyō. However, this works for anyone as Tobi, not just Izuna. But in the part where you say that if Tobi is Izuna, Madara's eyes which became the Rinnegan also belong to him, you are right.
  • Iron Sand Control isn't the same thing as Magnet Release; That's like saying Explosive Clay is the same thing as Explosion Release, or that Soap Bubble Ninjutsu is Water Release. It's related, but it's actually a derivative ability. He already had Magnet Release, he didn't invent it. He studied and imitated the previous Shukaku jinchūriki to copy their ability to manipulate sand using iron sand. It's only possible because his chakra is magnetic, if he really wanted to copy its abilities he would have needed to control normal sand, but he couldn't. The ability to control sand distinctively belongs to Shukaku, because the moment Gaara's father sees the wave of sand in chapter 546, he thinks "Shukaku". If the Sand village had Magnet Release users and they could control sand, why in the world does he think it's the power of the Shukaku? After all, if Magnet Release could control normal sand, we would see huge sand waves everywhere like what Gaara's father does with his gold dust wave. That's why I think Magnet Release can't control normal sand.
  • Eh, I don't think we have any way to tell if Orochimaru was Nawaki's sensei, and him teaching Anko was a slightly different thing. He probably just came to the hospital to "mourn" over a friend's brother's death.
  • Of course Sharingan is used more often than Rinnegan. However, the term "overused" can't be used to compare two different things. The Sharingan, despite being used countless times, can't really be overused as easily because an entire clan of people are said to have used it, and it's been there since the beginning of the series, and compared to the Rinnegan's appearance in the series, the Sharingan is actually expected to be more common. However, the Rinnegan's case is different. When first introduced to readers, it was a mysterious, godike eye that apparently only appeared every few hundred years, and the first ninja ever had the eye. Now, I would say if more than one person in the story used that, I would say it was overused.
  • Maybe Orochimaru will come back, but in terms of plot, Kabuto is basically his successor, something like a new and better Orochimaru. It's not really needed in the story for Orochimaru to return.

And seriously. Can we please do one topic at a time because I have to type a lot. --GoDai (talk) 05:00, January 11, 2012 (UTC)


  1. 1 But saying Kushina's seal prevented to mix her chakra with Kyubi's ... then why was Naruto born with the whiskers ?

Saying stuff like he got affected by it while in the womb ... if the seal prevented it, it's not possible. I came to the conclusion the whiskers are not related to Kyubi but have other meaning for reasons:

  • Both Kin&Gin were able to eat the flesh of Kyubi and survived and it was attributed to their relation to Sage.
  • We have never seen thier faces before being swallwed, thus being possible for them to have whiskers before the act happened ... neither we have seen Mito's children to confirm anything, I guess Kishi did this on purpose.


  1. 2 Another possibility I see ... I stil think that Karura was the 2nd Shukaku's host.

What if being compatible equals having some kind of resistance ? I mean let's really pretend for a while Karura was a host ... let's say for example 10 years. She has gained some kind of resistance to Shukaku's chakra and Gaara inherited it, thus being the best candidate for becoming a host.


  1. 3 Maybe what 4th uses is not a pure Gold, but it's mixed with other metals.

Actually a kind of magnetic sand really do exist. So Gaara using Magnet to move it is possible I guess. Asking why Gaara would use Magnet just for sand is like asking why Deidara used explosion release for his clay instead of the same style as Gari, or why Haku has not used Water against Sasuke's Fire.


  1. 4 I don't think the users die right the second the beast is extracted.

Akatsuki were draining the beast from their bodies most likely along with their own chakra and that's what killed them.


  1. 5 Not really, Sanbi was extracted from Yagura and it's assumed he died. But then again, why would Tobi extract the beast only for trouble of capturing it later again ?

So I guess Yagura has not died cause beast was extracted, but the beast was "revived" when Yagura died ... only time will tell. But my original point is pretty much that Yin can't exist without Yang, neither Yang without Yin ... So Kyubi being just Yang means it eats on Naruto's Yin to survive. So when Naruto dies, it's gonna be just Yang thus impossible to exist. That's I guess was Minato's plan ... "My son dies, your plan is ruined masked guy" ie. Kyubi lost forever.


  1. 6 I'm trying to say Naruto now has half the Sage's power already ... Sage's body/yang/will whatever with Sasuke being Sage's eyes/yin/chakra (Rinnegan) I see it as Sasuke unlocking Rinnegan or Sasuke dying and Naruto taking his EMS unlocking Rinnegan himself and with already being Sage's yang, getting Sage's yin will equal Naruto becoming the true 2nd So6p.
  1. 7 I respect your theory and it's possible as well ... but too many dots and parts is confusing.

I think it's reasonable to say Sage could switch between both Sharingan and Rinnegan or for that matter a theory:

  • Ten-Tail's/Sage's Yin with hatred = Sharingan
  • Ten-Tail's/Sage's Yin without the hatred = Elder Son's eyes
  • Ten-Tail's/Sage's Yang with hatred = Rinnegan
  • Ten-Tail's/Sage's Yang without the hatred = Byakugan

I imagine it that Elder Son's eyes (no hatred) later turned into Sharingan. (hatred) All eye techniques came just from Elder Son. Elder Son (Yin without hatred) attacking Younger One equals giving birth to hatred in Younger one. Elder Son taking flesh/power from Younger brother without hatred would result in Byakugan, and if Younger gave himself as well to the hatred instead of love would result in Rinnegan after taking his flesh/power.

But Elder Son was not successful in obtaining Younger's power, and Younger one kept his ideas of peace. Eyes of Elder Son's offspring later turned into Sharingan from hatred to their "brother" clans. Also most likely they have inbreeded between themselves later generation/s. Uchiha women most likely dont have Sharingan, but they keep the genes for eye techniques. So Uchiha women marrying into the more peaceful offspring (Good yang) of Younger son resulted in Hyuga Clan. Women from offspring of Elder son that did not give it to the hatred marrying into the wilder offspring ("Bad" yang) of Younger son resulted in Uzumaki.

So in short:

  • Elder Son: Good Yin offspring (Ancestor Doujutsu Clan) Bad Yin offspring (Uchiha Clan)
  • Younger Son: Good Yang offspring (pre-Hyuga) Wilder Yang offspring (Senju Clan)
  • Ancestor Doujutsu clan's women + pre-Hyuga = Hyuga Clan
  • Ancestor Doujutsu clan's women + Senju = Uzumaki Clan

If you are asking why there is Uzumaki,Hyuga,Senju and Uchiha clans but not the "Ancestor Doujutsu clan", it's because their Uchiha brothers have not agreed upon them marrying into "enemy" clan and turned some into Uchiha with hatred and those that resisted were being disposed of.

What I'm basically saying is that with Madara vs Hashirama, it was Madara fighting Hashirama to get Sage's power. In this case BOTH Naruto and Sasuke have potential of unlocking the Sage's power and not through hatred, but through cooperation. Madara and Hashirama were opposites, Naruto and Sasuke are both havles of one circle.


  1. 8 I think he could ... Sharingan being "Heaven's eye" Byakugan being "All seeing white eye" and Rinnegan being "Samsara eye"


  1. 9 I think "that technique" refers to Torii Seal Jiraiya taught Naruto from what Kushina and Minato have left.

Do you have any other explanation from where has Naruto learned sealing techniques ? Minato left a key to the seal probably with a design for the So6p's seal that was passed from generation to generation in Uzumaki Clan but only hosts can use it and only if they erased/overcame all the hatred. So Jiraiya telling Naruto not to remove his old seal until he is ready for the Kyubi's hatred equals = that jutsu I think its the same 2. Just in first instance Jiraiya telling Naruto not to play with his own seal until he is prepared, and in the latter discussing the new seal that Minato and Kushina left for Naruto to complete.


  1. 10 So mystery I guess ; )


  1. 11 Read above, I think it's more like Uzumaki have hidden potential to awaken Rinnegan on their own and Uchiha have to take Senju's DNA/flesh/blood/power/whatever ; )


  1. 12 So in short Madara gave Izuna's eyes to Nagato for as of now reasons unknown and Izuna later came back from dead as "Madara/Tobi" to take his eyes back.


  1. 13 Maybe ur right, I always assumed the Kazekage's like as meaning that so huge ammout of sand is possible to control just with Shukaku's chakra released.


  1. 14 Was Nawaki revived with Edo as well ? I don't remember ... If so, maybe he will tell us :D


  1. 15 I want Oro back : (

NOTE: You don't have to answer to all of this at once. Answer 1/3 then 2/3 and then the rest for example. So u reading and answering it whole is ur own thing ; )

--Elveonora (talk) 06:52, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure there are magnetic kinds of sand, but Gaara can control any kind of sand in the desert, and even crush any kind of soil with his own sand to produce more sand. The main component of sand is silica, and I don't believe that's magnetic. Also, Magnet Release is supposed to be good for fighting against metallic weapons, but Gaara never deflected any opponent's shuriken or kunai using magnetism, but he rather just blocks all attacks with his sand. He also doesn't "steal" his father's Gold Dust, which he could have done, but instead he fights against him with his own sand. Most cases suggest the sand manipulation is a completely different ability. --GoDai (talk) 00:35, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

hello

wow, have not seen you on naruto wikia for quite some time ... been busy ? Most likely school I guess.

Still not answered some topics, but I guess most of them are no longer worthy a convo :P

From the little of what we have seen of Sage's face, are those things on his face whiskers as Naruto has ?

And it seems you were really right with that tomoe = hatred thing --Elveonora (talk) 00:28, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah sorry I was busy with some big exams. And the number of topics was quite big... I' rather go one by one instead of starting new ones in between. They could be whiskers, or just shaded wrinkles due to his age (The direction of the lines suggest that it is just wrinkles). I think the theory, which was really just an idea, seems more solid now, due to his coat design. --GoDai (talk) 04:22, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

I see, exams are important. But it's getting kinda ridiculous with Naruto being 2nd coming of Sage and all Tailed Beasts except Shukaku giving him part of their chakra. --Elveonora (talk) 10:40, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm yeah I was hoping that Shukaku would also be used, but he wasn't. For me, Naruto being the person prophesied by the Sage isn't too surprising, the Toad Sage did say that Naruto would be the Savior of the World. I'm just thinking where Sasuke fits into the whole symbolism; If Naruto is the Sage, does Sasuke represent the incurable hatred of the Ten-Tails? Naruto cares for Sasuke, and wants to save him, and Chapter 572 suggests that the Sage wants to help the Tailed Beasts (Pieces of the Ten-Tails) fix their hatred. In the end it is still the same; the will against the hatred. However, the will wants to save the hatred. --GoDai (talk) 00:08, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think history is gonna exactly repeat itself ... it's more like a 2nd chance to correct the mistakes of the past. So maybe Naruto will fill Sasuke's soul with light and Sasuke will for change do something good and die as a hero not villain. --Elveonora (talk) 16:34, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well that's what I meant. The sage didn't fix the Ten-Tails hatred, he split the beast up so the prophesied child (believed to be Naruto) could fix the hatred himself. It isn't repeating because Naruto is completing something that began a long time ago, and as the Tailed Beasts said, "It's been too long, old man." They've been waiting, the same thing isn't happening again, Naruto is finishing the job. I personally think Naruto (and possibly with Itachi) are going to convince Sasuke to turn around. Kishimoto will hav to do something that pleases the reader because if Sasuke spontaneously decides to go to Naruto's side, that would be like making everything he did so far worthless. Naruto is the current carrier of the Will, and Sasuke is the ultimate culmination of Hatred. Remember, in my theory, the Ten-Tail's suppressed hatred was passed onto the older son along with the powerful chakra, and was re-awakened when the older son attacked his brother in hatred. Sasuke would be the ultimate incarnation of this hatred, and therefore a carrier of the true original hatred, in this case the Ten-Tails. --GoDai (talk) 19:30, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Something got me thinking ... Tobi said he want to sync Sasuke with Demonic Statue ... What Sage said about Tailed Beast coming back with different names and forms, it's more than sure thing Naruro will become a host of all of them. What if: If the host of the all tailed beast is filled with love, something different than Ten-Tails will be born. If the host is filled with hatred, ten-tails will be reborn. So I think Tobi wants to use Sasuke's hatred as a fuel to give birth to Ten-Tails when all beasts are sealed in it. Then it will be like you said, the statue will brake to reveal a new Ten-Tail's body. --Elveonora (talk) 02:43, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm I think something similar will happen, at least. I'm not sure about the synchronization thing though, I'm not sure if Tobi still wants to sync it with Sasuke, since it seems Tobi is already controlling it with the Rinnegan. Still, the results will most likely be something similar in plot and theme to what you said. --GoDai (talk) 08:17, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

little of new feedback/opinion and stuff

  • Wind + Lightning would result in "Radiation" (with the former serving as energy, enhancing mass of the latter) In this case I disagree with inferior => superior, Thunderclap makes no sense, not to mention "pressure" already is too similar to it, to me it does only in reverse, unless there is one possibility according to yours, which would result rather in "Sound" imo.--Elveonora (talk) 18:25, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Why are you trying to make a new element the "Radiation style" is just something that came from the fan wikia .There's already so many jutsu's instead why can't people think of combining jutsu's together to make new and better one's that way theres room for more stuff and we'll get a better arsenal of jutsu's.Whiteraven1 (talk) 18:33, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

There are theories that may possibly appear in canon, not for fanon--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

That may be true but you can't really back this up without any proof.I mean have you ever seen anyone who has used radiation in the series.Whiteraven1 (talk) 19:00, June 2, 2013 (UTC)


I believe we are able to hypothesize on ideas on talk sections for user pages. My user page isn't part of any of the wikia's official information, anyway. Hypotheses do not require proof; only premises. We are not saying they will definitely happen; we are trying out guesses and putting them to the test, which can only done by waiting for the revelation. The premises have already been set in the page, as the beginning section discusses what definition I am using for "Nature Transformation" and ideas are based on things we have already seen.

Now, about radiation, I'm not too sure about it. While there are many viable imaginable uses of it like transferring energy to heating things up, I tend to think of Shakuton as already taking up the "element of heat" seat, and otherwise, that leaves us with the mutagenous and cancer-inducing levels of radiation, which in terms of cultural context, is not a very safe card for Kishimoto to play, in my opinion, due to this unspoken nuclear weapons taboo. Of course, radiation itself is not radioactive matter or related to nuclear bombs, but the word is quite related. I may be going about this somewhat incorrectly or inaccurately but that's the vibes I get from this topic.

As you may have already noticed, I'm sorry to be very biased towards the established pattern of my theory, but I'll probably remain so until something throws a major wrench in my plans. Remember, Thunderclap and Pressure are only names for placeholders. The Lightning nature, like all other elements, enhances two other elements within kekkei genkai recompositions; in this case, they are Fire (by opposite recomposition to produce Explosion) and Wind (by adjacent recomposition to produce "Thunderclap"). If the enhancing effect of Lightning in Explosion Release is considered to be the instability caused by the high-frequency vibrations applied to the combustive effects of fire, applying the same vibratory effects to wind would create shock waves of specific frequencies, a possible technique being emitting waves that match the resonant frequency of the target to collapse buildings and cause internal damage (although I guess we've seen similar effects from Bat Controlling: Ultrasonic Mind Waves and Sage Art: White Rage Technique). On the other hand, perhaps "Pressure" isn't a great name for earth-enhanced wind, which is meant to be more stable and somewhat tangible. When Earth is enhanced by Water (for Wood) or Fire (for Lava), it produces an altered substance, but when it enhances Lightning (for Magnetism) or Wind (for "Pressure"), it alters those elements to allow them to control earth-based materials.

However, I do appreciate your thoughts, and a Radiation Release could be interesting if it does indeed appear. I'm working on how to phrase these ideas right, so that really helped. --GoDai (talk) 01:45, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

No problem. The thing I agree with is that your pattern seemingly works, no disputes, but what if it doesn't? You believe this is what Kishimoto has in his head. But what IF there are no patterns and you are just seeing things? Humans just like other animals with more advanced brains try to find an explanation behind things they don't understand by assigning patterns to them. Why I don't quite fancy the pattern approach is because it's limiting. I still believe there are more than 10 combinations possible and that different results may be yielded depending on which element serves as amplifying energy and which as the enhanced material. I mean, WHY NOT? is the question. Why should fire be capable to be applied onto earth, but not earth onto fire? Why water onto wind but not wind onto water? (I know bubbles make no sense, but still 0__0) The answer I guess is because some options would be nonsensical, but again, fluid lightning and wood are just as weird. For the Radiation Release, that's just a favorite idea of mine, according to your pattern it is Sound imo. something like what Dosu and Zaku did but without dem arm machines. For Lava, you know Studio Pierrot's inventions aren't canon, Mei's technique looks quite differently in the manga, so there's still a possibility her "lava" isn't lava.--Elveonora (talk) 11:50, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I do realize that my pattern is limiting, but I think without something to base things on, everything would be a little too free. If it turns out that I was just seeing things, this theory will just be considered invalid, which is not a big problem, since this was all a fun mental exercise, after all. Why the pattern can't go the other way around is a question not covered by my theory thus far, but I like to consider the pattern as just a convenient way of seeing what effects the chakra would have. In reality, of course, it's not like the kekkei genkai user applies one element to the other on purpose; after all, the quality transformations are simultaneous, so there can't technically be an "enhancer" or a "target" - both are equal components. It's just that as we both know, Kishimoto seems to be trying to make unique elements, rather than things like ignited wind or electrically-charged water, which can be done by using separate techniques of these chakra natures. One working method of coming up with such unique combinations like permeable fire or liquid lightning, in my opinion, is the pattern theory. I do find that this "Thunderclap" spot could have something related to sound, since we've agreed that Kishi could always make similar techniques with new effects. I mean, we've see thousands of explosions, but there's Explosion Release. I know that the anime's portrayal of Mei's Lava Release isn't necessarily canon, but if it was an error, why would it be repeated? I think they'd make sure it's cool with Kishi first, but I could always be wrong. --GoDai (talk) 00:56, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

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