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<center>''This project is on hiatus for an indefinite amount of time.<br />If you're interested in a timeline of the events in Naruto, please visit the [http://de.narutopedia.eu/wiki/Zeitstrahl German version] of this timeline.''</center>
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On this page, I'm documenting my thoughts and theories on various aspects of the Naruto universe.
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== Kakashi's, Rin's and Obito's age ==
 
== Kakashi's, Rin's and Obito's age ==
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'''This explanation is outdated and not valid anymore.'''
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Explanation
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Alright folks, since there still seems to be disagreement regarding the age of those three, I'll explain it again, hopefully for the last time. All this information is based on the databooks and of course the manga, it also requires the ability to think logical. I won't take months and days into account, since we don't have enough of them. So only the years matter.
 
Alright folks, since there still seems to be disagreement regarding the age of those three, I'll explain it again, hopefully for the last time. All this information is based on the databooks and of course the manga, it also requires the ability to think logical. I won't take months and days into account, since we don't have enough of them. So only the years matter.
   
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Now we solved Kakashi's Jōnin age, when the 3NWW happened and how old Obito actually is (and Rin would be if she hadn't died).<br />
 
Now we solved Kakashi's Jōnin age, when the 3NWW happened and how old Obito actually is (and Rin would be if she hadn't died).<br />
 
On a sidenote, Minato told Obito that Kakashi's father died "five years ago", meaning he died 10 years bNB (5+5=10). Kakashi wasn't even Genin at that time, he was only 4 years old.
 
On a sidenote, Minato told Obito that Kakashi's father died "five years ago", meaning he died 10 years bNB (5+5=10). Kakashi wasn't even Genin at that time, he was only 4 years old.
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Discussion
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Here is the problem with your timeline. Gai and Asuma became Chunin at 11 and 12. Genin do not wear flak jackets.. they were BOTH seen wearing the Flak Jackets when Rin showed her Kakashi Paper to them all, meaning they were at least 11 and 12 then.. Kakashi is the SAME age as Gai but only around 8 months younger. IN the chapter of Kakashi Gaiden it was said Kakashi had JUST become Jonin and Rin even talked about the fact she just talked to Obito and the rest about it. It means it happened soon after that page in chapter 599. Obito died at 13...
 
Here is the problem with your timeline. Gai and Asuma became Chunin at 11 and 12. Genin do not wear flak jackets.. they were BOTH seen wearing the Flak Jackets when Rin showed her Kakashi Paper to them all, meaning they were at least 11 and 12 then.. Kakashi is the SAME age as Gai but only around 8 months younger. IN the chapter of Kakashi Gaiden it was said Kakashi had JUST become Jonin and Rin even talked about the fact she just talked to Obito and the rest about it. It means it happened soon after that page in chapter 599. Obito died at 13...
 
Now it was stated that Itachi and Kakashi were prodigy's/genius's who graduated the academy in ONE year. Nobody else is known to have done that. Sasuke and Naruto joined the academy at 5 years old and graduated at 12 years old. Jonin sensei's can decide that certain students cannot take the Chunin exams if they feel they are not ready.. and only teams of 3 can take the exams. Gai held back his team one year because of it. Now that covers my timeline right there. Obito died at 13, soon after Kakashi became a Jonin at 11, where 11 year old chunin Gai and 12 year old chunin Asuma, 15 year old chunin Aoba and 12 year old Genin Kurenai are shown when Rin reveals her "secret plan" to give Kakashi gifts for his promotion. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 01:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
Now it was stated that Itachi and Kakashi were prodigy's/genius's who graduated the academy in ONE year. Nobody else is known to have done that. Sasuke and Naruto joined the academy at 5 years old and graduated at 12 years old. Jonin sensei's can decide that certain students cannot take the Chunin exams if they feel they are not ready.. and only teams of 3 can take the exams. Gai held back his team one year because of it. Now that covers my timeline right there. Obito died at 13, soon after Kakashi became a Jonin at 11, where 11 year old chunin Gai and 12 year old chunin Asuma, 15 year old chunin Aoba and 12 year old Genin Kurenai are shown when Rin reveals her "secret plan" to give Kakashi gifts for his promotion. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 01:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
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@Rikudo 47: +rep lol--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:25, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
@Rikudo 47: +rep lol--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:25, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
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How many mistakes were fixed in the tankobon? Because I know the 4ths face was removed from the monument and that was it and it was the only thing he apologised for... so the Flak Jacket Argument is still there. Now on to the voice and height argument.... ITACHI UCHIHA disproves all of your argument. He was shown to be at 164-165cm(manga) and 170-171cm(anime) at 13 in comparison with Fugaku and Mikoto, and he sounded the exact same as when he is an adult... Let's not forget Naruto in 3 years grew 18.5cm. from 147.5cm to 166cm. outside of your grad age numbers your arguments are back to square one, the grad age numbers do cement him as 9 when he became a jonin if we go only by those numbers with no delving deeper... but just like with Zabuza being actually 19 instead of 26 you should already know there are a few mistakes in every databook. Excluding the people who were not supposed to be there and the 4th hokage monument mistakes.. chapter 599 is all good to go and it makes Kakashi 11 years old, not 9. Like I said, You are not right and I am not wrong, but vice versa is also true. It is up to databook 4 to decided which way it goes. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 09:40, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
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== Kabuto's life ==
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Explanation
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Since there seems to be some disagreement about Kabuto and how his life went timeline-wise, allow me to explain it.
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* Kabuto was born 7 bNB, this is stated by the databooks.
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* He became Genin at age 10, 3 aNB, stated by the databooks.
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This means, everything that happened in is early life happened in these ten years. To resolve this matter, we also need a piece of information about Orochimaru:
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*Orochimaru says in chapter 121 that he left the village ~10 years ago. Chapter 121 happens 13 years aNB and 13 minus ~10 is ~3.
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So he left the village ~3 aNB, the same time Kabuto became Genin. Coincidence? Obviously not:
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*When Orochimaru brought Kabuto to his hidden laboratory (chapter 584), he said that they both will leave Konoha and the Root now.
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So we have 3 aNB for this happening and thus for Nono's death. According to Kabuto himself, he left the orphanage 5 years ago. 3 aNB minus 5 makes 2 bNB. He left the orphanage when he was 5 years old, after living there for three years, according to that one guy. 5-3 is 2, meaning Kabuto was two years old when they found him (5 bNB). At that time, the third NWW waged, explaining the destruction of Kabuto's hometown and why they helped the Konoha ninja and all that.
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On a sidenote, we know that Danzo didn't have his Sharingan at that time, since Shisui was still alive and kicking.
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Discussion
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I think you are mistaken here, let's try it another way.
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* First, wasn't the statement in chapter 121 just an estimate? 7 years was given at the end of Part I. I believe.
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* Itachi cut Oro's hand as 11 years old, hence 10 years pre-part II. after Kabuto and Orochimaru's meeting, meaning Kabuto was 13-14 then due to being 2 years 4 months older than Itachi.
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* Kabuto graduated at 10, meaning even before he had decided to leave with Oro, so when Danzo took him, he was 9, then enrolled 1 year in the Academy and his job in each of 4 villages lasted for a year, hence 5 years ago he had left the orphanage.
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To make it simpler, like this:
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* Kabuto is being found by Nono as 6 years old (17-18 years pre-part II.)
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* Stays in the orphanage for 3 years, until 9 and goes with Danzo (14-15 years pre-part II.)
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* Enrolls in Konoha's Academy and graduates in 1 year (13-14 years pre-part Ii.)
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* Spies for 4 years, noting 5 years to have passed since he had left the orphanage and meets Oro, they leave the root together (9-10 years pre-part II.)
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* days, weeks, months later, they together decide to enter Akatsuki (same)
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* a snake man's hand gets cut (same)
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Meaning Orochimaru left the village with Kabuto 6-7 years aNB--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:38, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
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:Could you tell me where I'm wrong? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 23:41, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
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::Taking the 10 years given in chapter 121 for granted and assuming Kabuto became a Genin during the time he had left with Oro rather than earlier. The thing that you are correct about tho is that Kabuto was found by Nono during 3rd Shinobi World War, but not as 2 years old but 6. After all, it took place 17/18 years ago, 23/24 (his age) -17/18=6--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:06, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Of course I take them for granted. Why wouldn't I?
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:::I don't assume that he became an Genin at that time. That was stated in the databook. But he had to be in Konoha to become a Genin, right? And he wasn't in Konoha until he became 10 years old. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:34, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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::::Right, but from the way you worded it, I get it you mean he turned 10 years old during the time he left with Orochimaru. I see it he turned 10 right after having been taken by Danzo and enrolling in the Academy and only then was sent to spy--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:18, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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:::::He turned 10 around the time he returned to Konoha as Kabuto Yakushi. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:38, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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:::::Plus, the seven years you're talking about are when Oro left Akatsuki, not Konoha. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:08, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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That's very hard to believe... again, you also say Itachi was 11 while cutting Oro's hand, right? That was 10 years pre-part II. and Kabuto's age 23-10=13, I'm doubtful that Orochimaru was with the Akatsuki for such a long time of 3 years you propose, didn't he go there for the purpose of stealing Itachi's body after all? I see it that they left the village, entered and even left the Akatsuki all of that in a single year.
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Appearance isn't a good argument when it comes to Kishimoto I know, but Kabuto looked much older than 10 then, same for his doppelganger on the photos, if Danzo was to convince Nono that some adult looking guy is her 10 years old "son" then she would have had to have been retarded.
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Not to mention it's very unlikely for 2 years old to be capable of reading clocks, usually happens between ages 4-6, some don't even later than that--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:15, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
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:We don't know why Orochimaru joined the Akatsuki. We only know why and when he left it. But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did. Oh, and I don't know if that matters, but I noticed that Kabuto was already wearing a Konoha head protector when Orochimaru joined Akatsuki. As I said before, both Orochimarus defecting from the village and from the Akatsuki are given years in the manga. I don't make these dates up, I simply connect them.
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:Appearance is really no argument, that's why I'm not using it. Please don't do it, either.
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:You do realize that Kabuto is as intelligent as Kakashi and Shikamaru, right? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 03:47, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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::^ Seel nailed on the head and also illuminated my main problem with people trying to correct articles with their self-perceived timelines. If the manga gives a date; let me repeat - a '''date''' - or number of years, then it is fine to draw conclusions, so long as they are clear and to the point. Using appearances, intelligence, power level, and otherwise is a flawed way of thinking when it comes to manga/anime, because they purposely overlook that stuff. Also, using your own logic to deduce someone's motives, therefore making X possible, but not Y, is flawed as well. In a written story, you're free to draw your own conclusions, but as far as recording it on an encyclopedia, it has to be point-blank what the author says, whether you think its stupid or not. Speculation ''always'', ''always'' leads to corrupted information. Good work on this timeline, btw, Seel. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:03, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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Don't worry Fox, we are just discussing, no word about trying to correct anything was given, it's just a chat. @Seel:
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* "But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did" Are you sure he entered before Itachi did due to chapter 121 or any other reasons beside that?
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* For the headband, not relevant, we both agree he had it by the time, he could have gotten it much earlier tho, there was just no reason to wear it as a spy in foreign countries, he wore theirs to keep his cover intact, not to blow it.
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* I recall it being said in Part I. that Kakashi Gaiden took place "about 10 years ago" while it was in fact 17-18 years before Part I. and that's almost twice the number given. Not to mention originally Orochimaru left after having been caught during his human experimentation by Hiruzen while later on we saw him deciding to leave himself telling Kabuto that they both will leave to build a village. I'm not degrading chapter 121, but it was written too long ago.
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You might as well be right, so be it if that's the case. And I said that appearance and intelligence aren't enough of an argument myself, Itachi is a good example at where it's faulty, but just because it tends to be doesn't mean it has to each time. Generally 9-10 years old boys (depends on if you believe that he in fact graduated or didn't but was given fake data) look nothing like Kabuto did in the latest episode ;) Either Kishi's pencil is getting all drawn out or Kabuto eats lots of fruits and vegetables.
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I'm gonna end this with what I said earlier, if almost two decades can easily be turned by Kishi into "about one decade" then over 10 years ago might be 6-7 years.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:05, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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I'm not expecting you to add my timeline information to any article. This is more of a prediction and when the manga is finished and (hopefully) everything is clear, I can say "ha! told you so!". :)
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* We can be sure because Itachi killed his clan years after Orochimaru founded Otogakure and took Kabuto in. Orochimaru wanted information about the Akatsuki, when Kabuto thinks back, Itachi isn't even shown. I don't know why I wrote that yesterday, maybe it's just my intuition^^
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* But we got more exact dates for Kakashi Gaiden. In this case, we only have ~10 years, stated by Orochimaru himself. I worked with what I have, not what else could've been meant or so.
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* What speaks against Orochimaru leaving after being found by Hiruzen and telling Kabuto they'd leave Konoha? Maybe Hiruzen found out, Orochimaru decided to defect from the village, took on the mission to kill Kabuto and instead told him about everything. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:15, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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Maybe we should think that Orochimaru's departure from the village isn't synonymous with him leaving the root. He might have left the village "over 10 years ago" (14 by now) but hadn't the root until later on perhaps? :D
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Who knows... anyway, kinda offtopic, but I wonder what's with Yamato, I will lol if Kishi forgets about him completely--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:58, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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: I feel bad for the poor guy. We haven't seen him since the onset of the war. He's just alone in a dark chamber no one knows the location of, likely still attached to the clone Hashi's crotch. I hope Kishi remembers he still exists hahaha ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:58, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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::Well, I believe the sole purpose behind the creation of his character was so someone would keep Naruto in check out of going crazy from QB chakra. Now that he has mastered it, there's no further need for Yamato in the plot ._. I hope Kishi concludes his story, that of Kabuto, Konohamaru and others perhaps too.
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@Seel, I guess this Kabuto timeline of yours is the best it can possibly be with all the currently present information, still think it's wrong and not because I'm stubborn or unable to admit being mistaken, but because my guts tell me so ^_ either the formerly "more than 10 years ago" has been retconned, or him leaving both the village and the root are two separate events. My version just fits sooo well, damn you chapter 121 T_T --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:23, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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:Well, we can't simply go and denounce some statements as wrong/old/retconned just because they don't fit our view on the whole thing. I took every information I could find and built this. You decided to ignore some information and built your own timeline.
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:Could you tell me again why "leaving Konoha ~10 years ago" and "leaving Konoha's Root" (not Konoha AND Root, that's a mistranslation) couldn't have happened at the same time? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:48, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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::In one scene we see Orochimaru in ordinary ninja outfit getting caught by Hiruzen and leaving the village and then being sent by Danzo to kill Kabuto, arriving in his standard attire. It would make sense for the latter to have happened first, because if it didn't then Orochimaru still worked for Root in secret after deserting from Konoha and as such if that's the case it's reasonable that there might have been a difference of years between the two departures.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:08, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Okay, so he got the order to kill Kabuto, instead made him his right hand, brought him back to Konoha and then left Konoha himself. What speaks against all this happening "~10 years ago"? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 23:04, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
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== Jūgo and the Juin ==
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Translation
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Chapter 349 (Karin): So, from Jūgo's body fluids, Orochimaru developed an enzyme which causes the same condition in other shinobi.
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Chapter 579 (Kabuto): Wrong... The Juin is just a pretension. That power only comes from mastering one's own body... at the Ryūchidō.
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Chapter 579 (Kabuto): Listen... Originally Jūgō's clan had special bodies that take in natural energy.
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Chapter 579 (Kabuto): And then he finally found out that the source of that power... was the Ryūchidō.
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Chapter 593 (Jūgō): In my village this is called Senninka... originally my transformation is the same. However, my copies' transformation is called Juinka.
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Chapter 593 (Orochimaru): I injected my Senjutsu chakra into the Juin... it's also a separated part of my consciousness.
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Chapter 593 (Jūgō): No... that's not it. He undid the Senninka and took his own chakra from inside of Kabuto[...]
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Chapter 648 (Orochimaru): Originally Jūgō's Juin is Senjutsu power. Sasuke-kun could easily release the Juin I once injected with Jūgō's chakra during my experiments.
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== Magnet Release and sand ==
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! Old analysis
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* Gaara has markings around his eyes. Originally attributed to sleep deprivation because of Shukaku, he keeps them after Shukaku's extraction. Same goes for his sand control, making it highly possible that both things have nothing to do with Shukaku.
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* His father gains the markings when he uses Jiton to control gold dust, making a relation highly likely.
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* Shukaku has black markings and can use Jiton, too. However, when he lends Naruto the Jiton chakra, there are no markings around Naruto's eyes and no sand visible.
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* Later, when Naruto uses the Jiton Rasen Shuriken, there are still no markings, but sand appears around the technique.
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The following questions need to be answered before we can say for a fact that sand control is Jiton:
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* Why does Gaara have the markings all the time while his father doesn't?
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* Why doesn't Naruto gain the markings when he gets Shukaku's Jiton chakra?
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* Why doesn't Toroi gain the markings when he uses Jiton?
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* Why is there no sand around the Magnet Rasengan, but around the Magnet Rasen Shuriken?
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I could only think of these answers, they're of course pure speculation:
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* Gaara uses sand continuously in his sand armour and his gourd, that's why he continuously needs to knead magnet chakra.
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* Naruto didn't knead the magnet chakra, Shukaku did. That's why he didn't gain the rings.
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* No idea. Maybe Kishimoto forgot to draw it the first time.
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* No idea, either.
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{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"
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! New analysis
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'''Eye markings and Jiton'''
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* Gaara's father gains eye markings when he activates his Jiton ability. = The markings are related to Jiton.
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* Gaara had eye markings ever since he was born. He was never stated to use Jiton. = The markings are not related to Jiton or are different from his father's.
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* Toroi has never shown eye markings when activating his Jiton ability. = The markings are not related to Jiton or Toroi uses a different Jiton than Gaara's father.
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* Naruto hasn't shown the eye markings either, despite using Jiton twice. = The markings are not related to Jiton or he didn't get them because he didn't knead the Jiton chakra.
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'''= the markings are most likely not related to Jiton (3 of 4 cases) and should not be treated as if they were (in the articles).'''
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'''Shukaku'''
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* Shukaku can use Jiton. It's unknown if he uses it to control sand.
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* Gaara's father can use Jiton. He uses it to control gold dust, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku.
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* Toroi can use Jiton. He magnetizes weapons, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki or is related to Gaara's father. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku or to the one Gaara's father uses.
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* Sandaime Kazekage can use Jiton. He magnetizes iron sand, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki or is related to Gaara's father or Toroi. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku or to the one Gaara's father or Toroi use.
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* Naruto can use Jiton with Shukaku's help. The first time there was no sand visible, the second time there's sand visible. = The sand either has to do with Jiton or was drawn to represent Shukaku's help.
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'''= Shukaku is not the (only) source of Jiton. Saying Gaara can use Jiton because of Shukaku is speculation, since there are three other Jiton user which can use it without ever being Shukaku's Jinchuriki. Also, Naruto can't use Jiton on his own despite being Shukaku's Jinchuriki.'''
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== Is SPS the mother technique for TSB or can one have TSB without using SPS? ==
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So, there seems to be a bit of a confusion about if the Six Paths Senjutsu is a mother technique of the Truth-Seeking Balls or if you can obtain the TSB without using SPS. Let's see if I can bring some light into this matter:<br />
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The term Six Paths Senjutsu was used for the first time by Madara. He noticed the SPS bloomed in Naruto (yes, he used that word) and said that he himself possessed that power, too. However, there was no further explanation about what exactly the SPS is. The accompanying picture, however, only shows the markings on Naruto's back, not the TSB.<br />
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Since both possess this power, let's see what they have in common and what not: Both possess fragments of all nine tailed beasts, but only Naruto has met Hagoromo and received some of his power. Since Madara has the same SPS without meeting Hagoromo, it's highly likely that Naruto didn't get them from the sage, either. This in turn makes it highly likely that having all nine tailed beasts in ones body result in the SPS.<br />
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Now for another user of the TSB, Obito. He didn't meet Hagoromo either, but he too possessed fragments of the 9TB and the TSB. However, he managed to create a TSB when he wasn't the Jinchuriki of the 9TB anymore. He did it by using Black Zetsu, which in turn was created from Kaguya's will. And here's the part where I don't know what to do: Is Will Materialization YYR or what is it?<br />
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I have no idea from this point onwards. I simply can't wrap my head around this topic. This is actually the first time I'm at a loss of ideas.

Latest revision as of 11:59, August 22, 2014

On this page, I'm documenting my thoughts and theories on various aspects of the Naruto universe.

Kakashi's, Rin's and Obito's age Edit

This explanation is outdated and not valid anymore.

Explanation

Alright folks, since there still seems to be disagreement regarding the age of those three, I'll explain it again, hopefully for the last time. All this information is based on the databooks and of course the manga, it also requires the ability to think logical. I won't take months and days into account, since we don't have enough of them. So only the years matter.

First of all, Kakashi's age:

  • Kakashi is 30 years old. The Book of Sha is dated to 16 years past Naruto's birth (pNB), meaning that Kakashi was born 14 years before Naruto's birth (bNB).
  • Kakashi became Genin at the age of 5, meaning 9 years bNB.
  • Kakashi became Chūnin at the age of 6, meaning 8 years bNB.

We take a break here and look at when the 3NWW took place:

  • According to the Book of Tō and chapter 239, it began over 10 years ago. The Book of Tō is dated to 13 years pNB, meaning that the 3NWW began at least 3 years pNB.
  • Minato fought in the 3NWW, meaning it actually began bNB. But I doubt anyone would say otherwise.
  • Itachi was traumatized by the 3NWW at the age of 4, meaning it happened 1 year bNB, since Itachi was born 5 years bNB.

So we have the war happening (and likely ending) 1 year before Naruto was born, with Kakashi being 13 years old. So far, so good. Now here's where most people make a mistake. They think Kakashi, Obito and Rin must be the same age, since they all graduated from the academy and became Chūnin at the same time.

To solve this, let's look at when Obito and Rin became Genin and Chūnin:

  • Obito became Genin at the age of 9 and Chūnin at the age of 11.
  • Rin became Genin at the age of 9 and Chūnin at the age of 11.

As you can see, both of them were 4 years older than Kakashi when they became Genin. But for them to be in the same Genin team after they graduated, they must've graduated at the same time. There's no example that would suggest it could be otherwise. Now, if Obito and Rin were four years older than Kakashi when they all graduated, it means that they were born four years earlier than Kakashi, amirite?

From this, we get the following:

  • Obito is 34 years old, meaning he was born 18 years bNB.
  • Rin would be 34 years old, meaning she was born 18 years bNB.

And now we conclude this:

  • Obito "died" when he was 13 years old, according to the Book of Tō.
  • When he was born 18 years bNB and died 13 years later, we get the date 5 years bNB for when the 3NWW happened, since Obito died in that war.
  • Kakashi, who became Jōnin at that time, was born 14 years bNB and 14-5 is 9, meaning he was 9 years old when he became Jōnin.

Now we solved Kakashi's Jōnin age, when the 3NWW happened and how old Obito actually is (and Rin would be if she hadn't died).
On a sidenote, Minato told Obito that Kakashi's father died "five years ago", meaning he died 10 years bNB (5+5=10). Kakashi wasn't even Genin at that time, he was only 4 years old.

Discussion

Here is the problem with your timeline. Gai and Asuma became Chunin at 11 and 12. Genin do not wear flak jackets.. they were BOTH seen wearing the Flak Jackets when Rin showed her Kakashi Paper to them all, meaning they were at least 11 and 12 then.. Kakashi is the SAME age as Gai but only around 8 months younger. IN the chapter of Kakashi Gaiden it was said Kakashi had JUST become Jonin and Rin even talked about the fact she just talked to Obito and the rest about it. It means it happened soon after that page in chapter 599. Obito died at 13... Now it was stated that Itachi and Kakashi were prodigy's/genius's who graduated the academy in ONE year. Nobody else is known to have done that. Sasuke and Naruto joined the academy at 5 years old and graduated at 12 years old. Jonin sensei's can decide that certain students cannot take the Chunin exams if they feel they are not ready.. and only teams of 3 can take the exams. Gai held back his team one year because of it. Now that covers my timeline right there. Obito died at 13, soon after Kakashi became a Jonin at 11, where 11 year old chunin Gai and 12 year old chunin Asuma, 15 year old chunin Aoba and 12 year old Genin Kurenai are shown when Rin reveals her "secret plan" to give Kakashi gifts for his promotion. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 01:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I see. So you're basing your whole timeline on the fact that Guy's wearing a flak jacket? Seelentau 愛 01:57, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Gai and Asuma are Chunin there hence the Flak Jackets. Kurenai is not wearing a flak jacket as she did not become Chunin until a year later when she was 13. That supports my timeline. That and EVERYTHING ELSE I POSTED.... come on man I thought you payed more attention and was more mature than Elveo? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I was asking a valid question and I need to ask another one: Are you aware that there's a war going on at that time? I quote the Book of Kai for you: "This war turned into an unprecedented war of attrition, tormenting all nations with a shortage of war potential. Not even excluding a great power like Konoha, very young children were thrown unto the battlefield, losing their short lives.". While I agree with you that Genin usually don't wear flak jackets, they're also usually not fighting in world wars. But as the quote says, even young children were thrown on the battlefield, explaining why even the Genin are wearing flak jackets: There's a war going on, they're forced to fight and they need to protect themselves. It doesn't matter if you're Genin or Chūnin, if you're thrown on the battlefield, you need a flak jacket to protect yourself. Seelentau 愛 02:12, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

-___- If that was the case then Obito, Kakashi, and Rin would of been wearing their flak jackets at Kanabi Bridge... that was a nice try though. Genin DON'T have Flak Jackets. Chunin can choose NOT to wear theirs. Same with Jonin. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:16, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Why are Chūnin allowed to choose, while Genin aren't? Can you proof that they aren't? Seelentau 愛 02:23, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Because the vest is the sign of becoming a chunin, it is worn after that by choice. IN the 4th war all the Genin are kept at home while all the chunin and above are at war... with Flak Jackets on. Name ONE genin who has worn a flak jacket.. oh wait you can't and why is that? because those who pass the chunin exams are awarded flak jackets and the rank of chunin. In Shippuden all the chunins are not seen wearing their flaks til the war, Kurenai as a Jonin is not seen wearing hers except in flash backs and Kakashi didn't even wear his during the 3rd war. There is the proof. Obviously chunins and jonins don't have to wear their flaks unless it is war time and even then they really don't have to... and even in war time genin don't have flaks as shown with team minato ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Naruto is a Genin and participates in the war. Besides that, even if you're right, are you aware that those stuff is based on chapter 599? Kishimoto made a few timeline mistakes in that chapter and only corrected one. I doubt he even thought of what you thought of, Guy wearing a flak jacket and all. Furthermore, while you're basing your timeline on what a soldier wears during times of war, I base my timeline on actual dates and calculations. I hope you understand why I can't take your opinion on this seriously and why I'm reverting your edits on Kakashi's article, asking for its protection. Seelentau 愛 02:53, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Did you not read my other posts on this subject?? I used dates, ages, and manga evidence. YOUR "definitive" evidence is the genin and chunin grad age numbers for obito, rin, and kakashi... YOU clearly are very close minded and do not know how to use dates and numbers as well as me. My proof is better than yours, you just like Elveo are being biased and close minded and are mad that I am right. Kakashi was 11. Enough said. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:05, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Also, Naruto was a genin because he was gone for 2.5 years with Jiraiya and never took a second chunin exams, he wasn't supposed to participate in the war.. have you been reading this manga at all?? You have some very terrible arguments ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:08, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

And again.. I don't post opinions here I post facts. In my opinion Kishi just got everything wrong and Kakashi was 13 and so was Rin when he was a Jonin. But the facts based on everything I found make him 11. I seem to be the only unbiased person on this site. This is sad ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:19, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

You'll find others who are just as proficient and less biased as you. They also are able to conduct themselves in manners becoming. I've went through everything you, Elv, and Seel has listed. No one, from a glance, has made an error in their math. Should you wish to be taken seriously, refrain from extraneous comments and condescension of high degrees. I'd also, if you could, would like it if you could post your "findings" in a timeline form such as:
Date / Event / Source (the most important part)
As an example, you could say "2000/ Kyuubi attacks; Obito age 13/ Manga #". And if it's databook information itself, please provide a link. If it's on this site, provide the page. Given the nature of the anime, I'd refrain from listing it, as any relevant information should be found in the manga long before it airs via anime, along with potentially corrupting things. Ignore the movies in their entirety. This will make it easier for others to search through your information and understand it more clearly, whether correct or incorrect. Do not worry about trying to do any elaborate math; just put the years and events, along with the source and it will be revealed by itself. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 03:45, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The only argument you're using is - besides the childish insults that will get you banned sooner or later - that Guy is wearing a flak jacket. I explained why it's normal that he's wearing one. You didn't even try to disprove my timeline, instead all you do is whining about how everyone is biased while using caps far too often. If you want others to take you seriously, I strongly suggest you stop this kind of behaviour. Seelentau 愛 03:58, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Please sign in when you comment.

That is not my only argument. Check again, and yes you are right I will work on a timeline right now. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:10, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous, I like your idea and I will concoct a timeline with that exact format. Thank you. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:24, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I did the math and made a timeline and Rin is the only one who is 2 Months too young to graduate at the same time as obito and/or Kakashi, but I did the math all the way until Naruto's Graduation and Hinata is also too young to have Graduated at 12 with the rest of her friends so I think Kishi just likes to round up ages when they are within 2-3 months of a year. But with all said and done, my math and timeline fits all the way. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 06:20, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I just spent hours creating a timeline I did not even remember to save and right when I pasted it here the computer died. I am frustrated beyond belief and I decided I am not going to post another timeline for awhile. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:04, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I am cooled down now and I have come to this conclusion, if we completely disclude chapter 599, then Obito and Rin are 4 years older than Kakashi, if we include chapter 599 then they are 2 years older than Kakashi. It all comes down to Databook 4 to solve this issue. Right now as long as it isn't addressed by databook 4 then we are both wrong and right at the same time. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, also completely irrelevant, but @Itachi, Kabuto also graduated the Academy in a single year, he never was called a prodigy/genius as far as I remember (though he certainly is) :-I and yes, Seel's reasons are the same as mine, movie and flack jackets and other **** aren't enough evidence, the ultimate evidence are dates and scenes. For what we know, all parties are wrong and he wasn't even 9 back then. But based on CURRENT up to date information that is subject to change, he was. It's clear that Kishimoto did mistake or a retcon because Kakashi's graduation number shows him leaving the Academy years before Rin and Obito, but that makes it even more complicated and can't be solved, unless the chapter 599 already solved it by making the 3 of them peers rather than possibly what the original idea might have been, that they were of the same age but Kakashi simply matured earlier.--Elveonora (talk) 11:41, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I stated at the beginning of my text that I won't take months into account, since we don't know what month they graduated or what month the war began and all that. And of course I didn't look at chapter 599 when I made my calculations, because it's not relevant at all and also it's full of mistakes. I explained why it's normal for a Genin to wear a flack jacket at times of war, too. Regarding the gap in their Ninja IDs, since we don't know exactly how they work, I ignored that, too. From that I conclude that Kakashi was 9 years old (and 4 years old when Sakumo died). Why is it even a problem for people to be wrong about that? There was no need for all this, I think. Hopefully, this settles it (at least until we have Databook 4, as you said). Seelentau 愛 13:34, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm Axel_Carrozzo. Itachiwasahero, I correct your previous mistake. You said that Kakashi became junin at 11 and Obito died that same year with 13. Obito was as tall as Minato when they fought (Obito 175,0 and Minato 179,2) The young Obito was 154,2 when he died. A person cannot grew up 20,8 cm in two years. This is a common mistake many people have commited. That Kakashi and Obito were 13 at Kakashi Gaiden and Kurama's attack happened one year later (Having in mind that Kakashi was 14 back then). Obito couldn't have goten that tall in a single year. Remember he had his deeper voice (Current adult voice) during the incident. From what I say that a person can't also have his/her voice mature in one year. The timeframe Seelentau established is actually acceptable for growth changes (Kakashi 9 and ObIto 13 at Kakashi Gaiden) (Kakashi 14 and Obito 18). In those five years apart, It's logic that Obito grow up that much. I'm having problems to sign. That's why I post my talk page User_talk:RIKUDO_SENNIN_47 --RIKUDO SENNIN 47 (talk) 15:11, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

@Rikudo 47: +rep lol--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

How many mistakes were fixed in the tankobon? Because I know the 4ths face was removed from the monument and that was it and it was the only thing he apologised for... so the Flak Jacket Argument is still there. Now on to the voice and height argument.... ITACHI UCHIHA disproves all of your argument. He was shown to be at 164-165cm(manga) and 170-171cm(anime) at 13 in comparison with Fugaku and Mikoto, and he sounded the exact same as when he is an adult... Let's not forget Naruto in 3 years grew 18.5cm. from 147.5cm to 166cm. outside of your grad age numbers your arguments are back to square one, the grad age numbers do cement him as 9 when he became a jonin if we go only by those numbers with no delving deeper... but just like with Zabuza being actually 19 instead of 26 you should already know there are a few mistakes in every databook. Excluding the people who were not supposed to be there and the 4th hokage monument mistakes.. chapter 599 is all good to go and it makes Kakashi 11 years old, not 9. Like I said, You are not right and I am not wrong, but vice versa is also true. It is up to databook 4 to decided which way it goes. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:40, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


Kabuto's life Edit

Explanation

Since there seems to be some disagreement about Kabuto and how his life went timeline-wise, allow me to explain it.

  • Kabuto was born 7 bNB, this is stated by the databooks.
  • He became Genin at age 10, 3 aNB, stated by the databooks.

This means, everything that happened in is early life happened in these ten years. To resolve this matter, we also need a piece of information about Orochimaru:

  • Orochimaru says in chapter 121 that he left the village ~10 years ago. Chapter 121 happens 13 years aNB and 13 minus ~10 is ~3.

So he left the village ~3 aNB, the same time Kabuto became Genin. Coincidence? Obviously not:

  • When Orochimaru brought Kabuto to his hidden laboratory (chapter 584), he said that they both will leave Konoha and the Root now.

So we have 3 aNB for this happening and thus for Nono's death. According to Kabuto himself, he left the orphanage 5 years ago. 3 aNB minus 5 makes 2 bNB. He left the orphanage when he was 5 years old, after living there for three years, according to that one guy. 5-3 is 2, meaning Kabuto was two years old when they found him (5 bNB). At that time, the third NWW waged, explaining the destruction of Kabuto's hometown and why they helped the Konoha ninja and all that.

On a sidenote, we know that Danzo didn't have his Sharingan at that time, since Shisui was still alive and kicking.

Discussion

I think you are mistaken here, let's try it another way.

  • First, wasn't the statement in chapter 121 just an estimate? 7 years was given at the end of Part I. I believe.
  • Itachi cut Oro's hand as 11 years old, hence 10 years pre-part II. after Kabuto and Orochimaru's meeting, meaning Kabuto was 13-14 then due to being 2 years 4 months older than Itachi.
  • Kabuto graduated at 10, meaning even before he had decided to leave with Oro, so when Danzo took him, he was 9, then enrolled 1 year in the Academy and his job in each of 4 villages lasted for a year, hence 5 years ago he had left the orphanage.

To make it simpler, like this:

  • Kabuto is being found by Nono as 6 years old (17-18 years pre-part II.)
  • Stays in the orphanage for 3 years, until 9 and goes with Danzo (14-15 years pre-part II.)
  • Enrolls in Konoha's Academy and graduates in 1 year (13-14 years pre-part Ii.)
  • Spies for 4 years, noting 5 years to have passed since he had left the orphanage and meets Oro, they leave the root together (9-10 years pre-part II.)
  • days, weeks, months later, they together decide to enter Akatsuki (same)
  • a snake man's hand gets cut (same)

Meaning Orochimaru left the village with Kabuto 6-7 years aNB--Elveonora (talk) 21:38, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

Could you tell me where I'm wrong? Seelentau 愛 23:41, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
Taking the 10 years given in chapter 121 for granted and assuming Kabuto became a Genin during the time he had left with Oro rather than earlier. The thing that you are correct about tho is that Kabuto was found by Nono during 3rd Shinobi World War, but not as 2 years old but 6. After all, it took place 17/18 years ago, 23/24 (his age) -17/18=6--Elveonora (talk) 13:06, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Of course I take them for granted. Why wouldn't I?
I don't assume that he became an Genin at that time. That was stated in the databook. But he had to be in Konoha to become a Genin, right? And he wasn't in Konoha until he became 10 years old. Seelentau 愛 13:34, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Right, but from the way you worded it, I get it you mean he turned 10 years old during the time he left with Orochimaru. I see it he turned 10 right after having been taken by Danzo and enrolling in the Academy and only then was sent to spy--Elveonora (talk) 14:18, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
He turned 10 around the time he returned to Konoha as Kabuto Yakushi. Seelentau 愛 14:38, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Plus, the seven years you're talking about are when Oro left Akatsuki, not Konoha. Seelentau 愛 15:08, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

That's very hard to believe... again, you also say Itachi was 11 while cutting Oro's hand, right? That was 10 years pre-part II. and Kabuto's age 23-10=13, I'm doubtful that Orochimaru was with the Akatsuki for such a long time of 3 years you propose, didn't he go there for the purpose of stealing Itachi's body after all? I see it that they left the village, entered and even left the Akatsuki all of that in a single year.

Appearance isn't a good argument when it comes to Kishimoto I know, but Kabuto looked much older than 10 then, same for his doppelganger on the photos, if Danzo was to convince Nono that some adult looking guy is her 10 years old "son" then she would have had to have been retarded.

Not to mention it's very unlikely for 2 years old to be capable of reading clocks, usually happens between ages 4-6, some don't even later than that--Elveonora (talk) 23:15, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

We don't know why Orochimaru joined the Akatsuki. We only know why and when he left it. But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did. Oh, and I don't know if that matters, but I noticed that Kabuto was already wearing a Konoha head protector when Orochimaru joined Akatsuki. As I said before, both Orochimarus defecting from the village and from the Akatsuki are given years in the manga. I don't make these dates up, I simply connect them.
Appearance is really no argument, that's why I'm not using it. Please don't do it, either.
You do realize that Kabuto is as intelligent as Kakashi and Shikamaru, right? Seelentau 愛 03:47, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
^ Seel nailed on the head and also illuminated my main problem with people trying to correct articles with their self-perceived timelines. If the manga gives a date; let me repeat - a date - or number of years, then it is fine to draw conclusions, so long as they are clear and to the point. Using appearances, intelligence, power level, and otherwise is a flawed way of thinking when it comes to manga/anime, because they purposely overlook that stuff. Also, using your own logic to deduce someone's motives, therefore making X possible, but not Y, is flawed as well. In a written story, you're free to draw your own conclusions, but as far as recording it on an encyclopedia, it has to be point-blank what the author says, whether you think its stupid or not. Speculation always, always leads to corrupted information. Good work on this timeline, btw, Seel. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:03, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry Fox, we are just discussing, no word about trying to correct anything was given, it's just a chat. @Seel:

  • "But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did" Are you sure he entered before Itachi did due to chapter 121 or any other reasons beside that?
  • For the headband, not relevant, we both agree he had it by the time, he could have gotten it much earlier tho, there was just no reason to wear it as a spy in foreign countries, he wore theirs to keep his cover intact, not to blow it.
  • I recall it being said in Part I. that Kakashi Gaiden took place "about 10 years ago" while it was in fact 17-18 years before Part I. and that's almost twice the number given. Not to mention originally Orochimaru left after having been caught during his human experimentation by Hiruzen while later on we saw him deciding to leave himself telling Kabuto that they both will leave to build a village. I'm not degrading chapter 121, but it was written too long ago.

You might as well be right, so be it if that's the case. And I said that appearance and intelligence aren't enough of an argument myself, Itachi is a good example at where it's faulty, but just because it tends to be doesn't mean it has to each time. Generally 9-10 years old boys (depends on if you believe that he in fact graduated or didn't but was given fake data) look nothing like Kabuto did in the latest episode ;) Either Kishi's pencil is getting all drawn out or Kabuto eats lots of fruits and vegetables.

I'm gonna end this with what I said earlier, if almost two decades can easily be turned by Kishi into "about one decade" then over 10 years ago might be 6-7 years.--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not expecting you to add my timeline information to any article. This is more of a prediction and when the manga is finished and (hopefully) everything is clear, I can say "ha! told you so!". :)

  • We can be sure because Itachi killed his clan years after Orochimaru founded Otogakure and took Kabuto in. Orochimaru wanted information about the Akatsuki, when Kabuto thinks back, Itachi isn't even shown. I don't know why I wrote that yesterday, maybe it's just my intuition^^
  • But we got more exact dates for Kakashi Gaiden. In this case, we only have ~10 years, stated by Orochimaru himself. I worked with what I have, not what else could've been meant or so.
  • What speaks against Orochimaru leaving after being found by Hiruzen and telling Kabuto they'd leave Konoha? Maybe Hiruzen found out, Orochimaru decided to defect from the village, took on the mission to kill Kabuto and instead told him about everything. Seelentau 愛 13:15, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we should think that Orochimaru's departure from the village isn't synonymous with him leaving the root. He might have left the village "over 10 years ago" (14 by now) but hadn't the root until later on perhaps? :D Who knows... anyway, kinda offtopic, but I wonder what's with Yamato, I will lol if Kishi forgets about him completely--Elveonora (talk) 14:58, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

I feel bad for the poor guy. We haven't seen him since the onset of the war. He's just alone in a dark chamber no one knows the location of, likely still attached to the clone Hashi's crotch. I hope Kishi remembers he still exists hahaha ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:58, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I believe the sole purpose behind the creation of his character was so someone would keep Naruto in check out of going crazy from QB chakra. Now that he has mastered it, there's no further need for Yamato in the plot ._. I hope Kishi concludes his story, that of Kabuto, Konohamaru and others perhaps too.

@Seel, I guess this Kabuto timeline of yours is the best it can possibly be with all the currently present information, still think it's wrong and not because I'm stubborn or unable to admit being mistaken, but because my guts tell me so ^_ either the formerly "more than 10 years ago" has been retconned, or him leaving both the village and the root are two separate events. My version just fits sooo well, damn you chapter 121 T_T --Elveonora (talk) 21:23, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well, we can't simply go and denounce some statements as wrong/old/retconned just because they don't fit our view on the whole thing. I took every information I could find and built this. You decided to ignore some information and built your own timeline.
Could you tell me again why "leaving Konoha ~10 years ago" and "leaving Konoha's Root" (not Konoha AND Root, that's a mistranslation) couldn't have happened at the same time? Seelentau 愛 21:48, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
In one scene we see Orochimaru in ordinary ninja outfit getting caught by Hiruzen and leaving the village and then being sent by Danzo to kill Kabuto, arriving in his standard attire. It would make sense for the latter to have happened first, because if it didn't then Orochimaru still worked for Root in secret after deserting from Konoha and as such if that's the case it's reasonable that there might have been a difference of years between the two departures.--Elveonora (talk) 22:08, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so he got the order to kill Kabuto, instead made him his right hand, brought him back to Konoha and then left Konoha himself. What speaks against all this happening "~10 years ago"? Seelentau 愛 23:04, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Jūgo and the Juin Edit

Translation

Chapter 349 (Karin): So, from Jūgo's body fluids, Orochimaru developed an enzyme which causes the same condition in other shinobi.

Chapter 579 (Kabuto): Wrong... The Juin is just a pretension. That power only comes from mastering one's own body... at the Ryūchidō.

Chapter 579 (Kabuto): Listen... Originally Jūgō's clan had special bodies that take in natural energy.

Chapter 579 (Kabuto): And then he finally found out that the source of that power... was the Ryūchidō.

Chapter 593 (Jūgō): In my village this is called Senninka... originally my transformation is the same. However, my copies' transformation is called Juinka.

Chapter 593 (Orochimaru): I injected my Senjutsu chakra into the Juin... it's also a separated part of my consciousness.

Chapter 593 (Jūgō): No... that's not it. He undid the Senninka and took his own chakra from inside of Kabuto[...]

Chapter 648 (Orochimaru): Originally Jūgō's Juin is Senjutsu power. Sasuke-kun could easily release the Juin I once injected with Jūgō's chakra during my experiments.

Magnet Release and sand Edit

Old analysis
  • Gaara has markings around his eyes. Originally attributed to sleep deprivation because of Shukaku, he keeps them after Shukaku's extraction. Same goes for his sand control, making it highly possible that both things have nothing to do with Shukaku.
  • His father gains the markings when he uses Jiton to control gold dust, making a relation highly likely.
  • Shukaku has black markings and can use Jiton, too. However, when he lends Naruto the Jiton chakra, there are no markings around Naruto's eyes and no sand visible.
  • Later, when Naruto uses the Jiton Rasen Shuriken, there are still no markings, but sand appears around the technique.

The following questions need to be answered before we can say for a fact that sand control is Jiton:

  • Why does Gaara have the markings all the time while his father doesn't?
  • Why doesn't Naruto gain the markings when he gets Shukaku's Jiton chakra?
  • Why doesn't Toroi gain the markings when he uses Jiton?
  • Why is there no sand around the Magnet Rasengan, but around the Magnet Rasen Shuriken?

I could only think of these answers, they're of course pure speculation:

  • Gaara uses sand continuously in his sand armour and his gourd, that's why he continuously needs to knead magnet chakra.
  • Naruto didn't knead the magnet chakra, Shukaku did. That's why he didn't gain the rings.
  • No idea. Maybe Kishimoto forgot to draw it the first time.
  • No idea, either.
New analysis

Eye markings and Jiton

  • Gaara's father gains eye markings when he activates his Jiton ability. = The markings are related to Jiton.
  • Gaara had eye markings ever since he was born. He was never stated to use Jiton. = The markings are not related to Jiton or are different from his father's.
  • Toroi has never shown eye markings when activating his Jiton ability. = The markings are not related to Jiton or Toroi uses a different Jiton than Gaara's father.
  • Naruto hasn't shown the eye markings either, despite using Jiton twice. = The markings are not related to Jiton or he didn't get them because he didn't knead the Jiton chakra.

= the markings are most likely not related to Jiton (3 of 4 cases) and should not be treated as if they were (in the articles).

Shukaku

  • Shukaku can use Jiton. It's unknown if he uses it to control sand.
  • Gaara's father can use Jiton. He uses it to control gold dust, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku.
  • Toroi can use Jiton. He magnetizes weapons, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki or is related to Gaara's father. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku or to the one Gaara's father uses.
  • Sandaime Kazekage can use Jiton. He magnetizes iron sand, but never was Shukaku's jinchuriki or is related to Gaara's father or Toroi. = His Jiton is not related to Shukaku or to the one Gaara's father or Toroi use.
  • Naruto can use Jiton with Shukaku's help. The first time there was no sand visible, the second time there's sand visible. = The sand either has to do with Jiton or was drawn to represent Shukaku's help.

= Shukaku is not the (only) source of Jiton. Saying Gaara can use Jiton because of Shukaku is speculation, since there are three other Jiton user which can use it without ever being Shukaku's Jinchuriki. Also, Naruto can't use Jiton on his own despite being Shukaku's Jinchuriki.

Is SPS the mother technique for TSB or can one have TSB without using SPS? Edit

So, there seems to be a bit of a confusion about if the Six Paths Senjutsu is a mother technique of the Truth-Seeking Balls or if you can obtain the TSB without using SPS. Let's see if I can bring some light into this matter:
The term Six Paths Senjutsu was used for the first time by Madara. He noticed the SPS bloomed in Naruto (yes, he used that word) and said that he himself possessed that power, too. However, there was no further explanation about what exactly the SPS is. The accompanying picture, however, only shows the markings on Naruto's back, not the TSB.
Since both possess this power, let's see what they have in common and what not: Both possess fragments of all nine tailed beasts, but only Naruto has met Hagoromo and received some of his power. Since Madara has the same SPS without meeting Hagoromo, it's highly likely that Naruto didn't get them from the sage, either. This in turn makes it highly likely that having all nine tailed beasts in ones body result in the SPS.
Now for another user of the TSB, Obito. He didn't meet Hagoromo either, but he too possessed fragments of the 9TB and the TSB. However, he managed to create a TSB when he wasn't the Jinchuriki of the 9TB anymore. He did it by using Black Zetsu, which in turn was created from Kaguya's will. And here's the part where I don't know what to do: Is Will Materialization YYR or what is it?
I have no idea from this point onwards. I simply can't wrap my head around this topic. This is actually the first time I'm at a loss of ideas.

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