I think your mostly correct except, you do realize that obito started a war and zetsu is kaguya will. I would think it would be more like
- 1º Obito & Zetsu
- 2º Itachi & Kisame
- 3º Sasori & Deidara
- 4º Pain & Konan
- 5º Kakuzo & Hidan
I put pain so low on this list because all the teams above him and Konan
would beat them in a head on fight example is sasori and deidara proboply the hardest to match but Deidara could lure them into a quick trap then C-0 all the pains and konan and sasori I'm willing to bet could use the poison in his iron sand to hit nagato once. itachi vs nagato we saw you add kisame and nagato is screwed and obito is the leader of the akatsuki so I think I don't need to explain why the is nuber one on the list
Lol, Pain solos most of these teams alone. Pain alone is a team of six.
1. Obito and Zetsu, because Obito is immune to pretty much anyone that can deal damage to him except with prep time. Let's not forget if Itachi could kill Obito, he would've.
2. Pain and Konan, Itachi's Susanoo was destroyed by Kirin and he still took massive damage from some of the force. It's highest damage output is about a small mountain. Just Shinra Tensei Pain wiped out an entire village of Konohagakure. A place where it houses around 13k Shinobi and that's not including civilians, Genin, and Academy Students. Then we got a team of Pains that all have special characteristics of their own. Summonings. Preta Path. Human Path. Revive. Etc. Finally Konan. Although her offensive capabilities aren't anything on the level of the others, her defensive capabilities are amazing. She can provide excellent Support and strategic attacks. She's the only one who actually killed Obito in a solo fight and he was forced to use Izanagi to change his death.
3. Itachi and Kisame, Sasori and Deidara, the immortals.
number 1 spot could go either between Kisame+Itachi or obito +zetsu. Obito is a character that fluctuates heavily in strength and arsenal so you are gonna need to be more specific on which obito.
but, disregard any claims you see that itachi would have killed obito if he could, as that is just a distorted view of the manga. Obito was careful of itachi. If worse comes to worse, obito could bring nagato/pain and even other akatsuki members as backup, and itachi can't take them all on, and itachi was aware of that. But obito also knew just the same that itachi was a wildcard, which is why he waited for itachi to die before making his big moves. that's why itachi prepared two contingencies that obito couldn't see coming ahead of time. Obito clearly took konan lightly, as he went to fight her without any backup and even admitted he underestimated her. not only that, konan was fully prepped, had full intel, and environmental advantage, and still didn't have a backup plan and failed to account for the technique costing all her chakra. when obito got serious, he blitzed the living hell out of konan and that was that.
If the obito you are talking about is simply one ms orange mask obito, then itachi and kisame take the number one spot without any question. Kisame complements itachi's weakness perfectly.
Obito and zetsu
Obito and deidara
Pain and konan take 4th place place after those pairs. Pain isn't reacting to the totsuka blade when prime Edo nagato who was juiced up on killer bee's chakra couldn't. Nagato was even looking right up at the susano'o gourd and the the susano'o upper body and couldn't register a mental reaction to the blade. Pain also isn't reacting to itachi teleporting a clone behind naraka path. itachi has shown the ability to spawn clones behind his opponent at will, such as in his fight with kakashi or even how he was getting behind a perfect sage with ease, and he is better at taijutsu than pain is. Furthermore, the pains use a T- formation when they fight, where 3 pains stand one behind the other. that means the initial totsuka blade blitz is killing 3 pains off the bat Adding in kisame is just spite at that point, because he can help itachi keep up the yata mirror longer, which deflects any shinra tensei pain tries to use. it goes without saying that konan isn't even a threat to itachi either without a ridiculous amount of prep time. hell, I don't see how konan is even a match for kisame. kisame and itachi are two beasts out of her league.
For the lower tiered pairs now:
I'll have to think more about sasori+ deidara/orochimaru vs immortal duo.
Hidan while great suffers from his severly limited arsenal. just a scythe and kenjutsu doesn't really cut the mustard too much against most of the akatsuki members. But he definitely is not as weak some in the fandom make him out to be. his immortality means he can stay for the long game, and he can definitely hold his own against some of the weaker members. But that's where kakazu's firepower comes in. kakazu is also highly experienced. orochimaru would be a problem because kakazu and hidan can't put him down, but I can see hidan and kakazu holding their own against deidara and sasori. But to be honest, I think the immortal duo might just be at the bottom of the barrel here.
Totally, Obito could call people to his side even though all of them majority of the time, split up. Quit overplaying Itachi, he isn't Obito's level. Obito wasn't even with the Akatsuki throughout the time Nagato ran it until a member died. So your argument fails there. If Itachi could kill Obito, he would of and that is a fact. Nothing stops him. Everyone had their own missions and did their own thing. Obito was a secret to most of the Akatsuki and didn't actually make an appearance as one of the members until after Sasori died. Unless you are confident enough to say that Obito was scared of Itachi, then nothing stopped Itachi from attacking Obito when he's alone.
1: Obito & Zetsu: This is a meta thing, because Obito is actually the leader of the Akatsuki, and Zetsu is the one manipulating him. Obito with just Kamui is pretty potent and Zetsu has literally all of ninja history under his belt in terms of experience.
2: Pain & Konan: Pain is the driving force of strength here. His abilities make him a swiss army knife of powers inside of 6 bodies. Konan is really strong if she's got home field advantage, but outside of that she doesn't stand out among the other Akatsuki.
3: Itachi & Kisame: Very powerful ninja individually. They make a very powerful team. Itachi is terminally ill though, and Obito and Nagato would both have the ability to decrypt his illusions. Kisame is just a big beat stick with a sword and water moves and while he might hit hard and transform, it doesn't really make him a god-tier ninja.
4: Kakuzu & Hidan: Kakuzu is the second most experienced member of Akatsuki, and Hidan is effing crazy. The only reason I'd put these guys at number 4 is because of how durable they are. They've both got decent offensive presence, but actually taking them off of the battlefield is a real chore.
5: Deidara & Sasori: I have these guys as the weakest. Not because they aren't strong, but because I think the other members of Akatsuki could beat them. Sasori is the stronger of the two, and Hidan would have no real chance against him, but I think Kakuzu would be more than enough to check his strength, especially if Chiyo and Sakura could do it.
Quit downplaying itachi. He is a genius of all three shinobi forms of combat, by feats and statements. he has a fast sword of sealing that most characters can't react to, a shield that deflects most attacks.He was stated to be invincible sufficient he has the yata mirror and totsuka blade, said by Black Zetsu himself, the will of Kaguya,one of the most ancient and knowledgable sources of information in the series, someone who has watched madara and hashirama fight for decades. Itachi one shotted nagato and orochimaru without a mental reaction. Naruto fans need to stop downplaying itachi's feats. his only practical weakness as a shinobi is his pitiful stamina, but it's just enough for him to execute his win condition against over 90 percent of the cast, but otherwise he obviously can't maintain susano'o forever. Kishimoto reinforced that itachi is absolutely top tier at every turn of the manga, so why the downplay? How is Black Zetsu's statements on top of everything else not enough for people? He is on obito's level, period.
Lol no, you can't even tell me where obito was all those years. Prove that Itachi could find him all alone in a dark alley when clearly that wasn't the case. The akatsuki members mostly travel in pairs, and itachi and obito had an agreement. Kisame is with itachi the whole time, and kisame is loyal to obito. so what happens when itachi tells kisame, oh, I want to go and find tobi. they find him, and all of a sudden itachi starts trying to kill tobi. tobi reveals that he is actually "madara" to kisame, and kisame immediately understands that itachi has to go if he is trying to kill "madara". then suddenly, itachi has to fight both kisame and obito, which is not a good matchup for itachi. Obito was clearly cautious of itachi, the manga made that clear. when itachi was about to die, the akatsuki still consisted of pain, konan, and kisame. obito could simply run away while having kamui turned on and retreat to the rain village, where he can inform nagato that itachi is a traitor. what then? Itachi literally has to defect from the akatsuki, defeating the whole purpose of his mission. you also convienetly ignore itachi's other motives, which directly clashed with his mission. he wanted to die, period. he also wanted to die being labeled a traitor, so he is limited in how he could go about things. he didn't want konoha finding out that he was actually a good guy, did you somehow miss that entire portion of the manga? he wanted sasuke to be a hero for "killing him".
@drawingblank except itachi already defeated nagato with low difficulty. nagato can't react to totsuka when itachi gets serious, period. Obito would get clone feinted by an exploding shadow clone as obito materializes, and the blade finishes him off. obito would be a tough battle, but itachi can pull it off with high difficulty, depending on which obito we are talking. With kisame by his side, itachi's terminal illness is irrelevant. Samehada is shown to give stamina to people, Kisame could convince it to lend itachi chakra. samehada is not opposed to giving people other than kisame chakra, as we have seen in the canon. and sorry, nagato also isn't "decrypting" tsyukyomi either. It's also debateable whether or not obito could break tsykuyomi. Obito doesn't get sasuke's feat, because one , sasuke had experience being trapped in it before, and two, that happened in a fight where we know itachi was putting on a act/holding back, so again, debateable.
and nah, the immortal duo can't beat deidara and sasori. Deidara is too smart and has the perfect tools to deal with their immortality. kakazu may be highly experienced but he has been prone to being outsmarted by relatively creative shinobi, even the likes of izumo and kotetsu. kakazu beat them in the end but let's not forget they took him off guard with their homing projectile's mobility and syrup trap. Deidara is capable of taking out all his masks in one blow via C3 + c4 wombo combo. the only thing that keeps kakazu in the fight is raiton: gian, but deidara is now experienced in fighting raiton users, and he has sasori to help him take out the raiton mask. after that, deidara finishes kakazu, and sasori + deidara is too much for hidan.
and Kisame is certainly stronger than you gave him credit for. You can clearly see that by the end of the series, kisame became a very shrewd fighter and is highly experienced. he tanked hirudora and on his deathbed still overpowered mokuton constraints designed to suppress his chakra. ignoring Zetsu, Kisame with samehada is most certainly the strongest akatsuki member behind itachi, obito, and nagato. Daikodan also takes a huge poop in most people, Might Guy was simply a bad matcup for kisame. Kisame literally can drain people dry, has bijuu levels of strength and chakra, and he doesn't get tired. you need incredible speed, power, or one shot hax to deal with him effectively. Might Guy, one of kisame's worst matchups, literally need the 6th gate to put down a thirty percent clone of kisame, enough said, and even in might guy's final battle he needed the 7 gate to defeat a kisame without samehada, which is a crippled kisame in my book.
Where is your evidence that Kisame and Itachi are together all day everyday with no breaks from each other all their entire Akatsuki lives? If you really think I'm going to believe that Kisame and Itachi are up each other's butt forever, then your greatly misinformed. I also find it hard to believe that Itachi can't find Obito but could beat him, lol. Very unfathomable. Obito needed Itachi, cause numbers. Itachi didn't need Obito. His job was to protect Konoha and that was his only job. So nothing stops Itachi from killing Obito. So again, what stops Itachi from killing him if he can? Kisame isn't always with him, so that isn't a sufficient answer.
There's only one reason why Itachi had not killed Obito. That is, he couldn't. That's because of Kamui. Also, Itachi beat a mindless Nagato controlled by Kabuto. He also only beat him after being helped getting away from Chibaku Tensei.
Needing to deal with all three at once, Kabuto has Nagato use Chibaku Tensei. Itachi, Naruto, and B simultaneously use their strongest long-range attacks to destroy the growing planetoid. As Kabuto's attentions are distracted by its destruction, Itachi stabs him with Susanoo's Sword of Totsuka, which also restores his consciousness to him.Nagato.
If it had not been for Bee and Naruto, Itachi would of been the one who was sealed. Enough said.
Terrible logic. Obito has a dimension that he can hide in that Itachi has no way to reach. You can't tell me where obito was all those years, so I accept your concession. Being able to find someone =/= being able to beat them in battle. Similarly, not being able to find someone =/= not being able to beat them in battle. If obito doesn't want to be hit, NO ONE can hit him, not even god tiers unless they can teleport into his kamui dimension, how is that hard to understand? His only weakness lies in the moment of the attack and the limits of his reflexes/sensory capabilites. If he simply decides to keep kamui active, he can do so for 5 minutes, run away, and then safely teleport away. Even minato couldn't follow him once he entered the kamui dimension. and before you use konan argument, think twice, and remember that required a rediculous amount of prep time, FULL KNOWLEDGE, which itachi was proven not to have had (why? because your boy obito already confessed that if itachi knew about kamui's secrets, obito would have been dead) and also obito underestimating her and fighting her one 1v1 on battlefield that suited konan, she had the enviornmental advantage. Obito was literally forced to maintain a pact with itachi, was forced to hide from him for years, and was forced to wait until his death to make big moves against konoha, lol. If obito brought nagato as backup, then obito surely wins against itachi, but then itachi still had kotoamatsukami to wreck havoc with, and then obito loses itachi as a valuable member. Itachi could also retreat and defect from akatsuki. obito treaded carefully and maximized his resources, but if itachi was as easy to deal with you as claimed, then obito has no reason to abide by the pact to not attack konoha directly.
And I already told you why. Obito simply runs/teleports back to rain village and gets nagato as backup. You have yet to prove that obito would engage itachi in a 1v1 fair battle. Kisame would also eventually find out, now it's 3v1. how is that hard to undersand?
And Black zetsu, the final antagonist, also accepts your concession. You completely ignored the fact he views itachi as invincible as long as his stamina permits the maintenance of the yata mirror and totsuka blade, on top of all of itachi's other techniques. Obviously, sick itachi especially can't sustain it for too long, but he can certainly hold his own against most top tier characters. Obito is hard to deal with because he can bypass the yata mirror, but totsuka blade + itachi's genjutsu+ clone feints can deal with him 1v1. But if obito is accompanied by someone like pain or nagato, then it's too difficult, itachi would be coughing up blood from exerting himself dealing with pain and then obito would eventually have a chance to warp him away.
Lol, that quote proves jack squat. Killer bee didn't even use continuous bijuu dama, which is his real strongest attack. Itachi was simply being calculated and careful. He had no idea how much damage was required to destroy the chibaku tensei, so you have proven nothing, so he did the wise thing and tested it out with the firepower he had available.. You can't even prove that all 3 of those attacks were absolutely necessary, or that multiple yakaska matagama thrown one after the other wouldn't be able to destroy it eventually. His max power yakaska matagma was comparable in size to killer bee's bijuu dama, and were much bigger than the ones itachi used against kabuto. Furthermore, even if itachi couldn't break chibaku tensei by himself in a hypothetical 1v1 battle against nagato, he now has seen the technique, and all he has to do is blitz nagato with the totsuka blade before he uses it. he now knows the handseal nagato uses to cast it, and with the sharingan he can easily predict the seal before hand. Plus, there is still tsykuyomi, there is still itachi's other methods of stealing initiative. At best, all you have proven is that nagato vs itachi could go 50/50, which still puts itachi on nagato's and obito's level, period. Nagato also can't react to the blade. you are going against the manga on multiple fronts. Black Zetsu acknowledged the power of the blade, and the feats corroborate it.When the final anatagonist of the series who has literally seen gods level the terrain comes out and says itachi is invincible, it's best not to overlook it.
I wouldn't disrespect obito like that. He is certainly stronger than both pain and konan, and depending on how he utilizies zetsu, they certain can beat both pain and konan. So he is above pain and konan, but otherwise your list is accurate.
Accept your own concession since no one conceded. That's your lean on argument when things aren't going your way. I answered the points i wanted to answer. I'm not going to go through every irrelevant sentence you make and reply to every thing. I'm not wasting my time on someone who is proven to care more for an argument and less of debate. For now on, I'm just going to use your own arguments against you so you end up arguing with yourself.
You can't tell me where Obito is or why Itachi can't find him. I accept your concession.
Why would Obito run away from Itachi? It's not my job to prove why something wouldn't happen, it's your job to prove why something would. Why would Obito fight Itachi 1v1 if Itachi attacked him? Simply for the reason he can kill him. What's your answer to why he wouldn't? You said it yourself, Obito literally can phase through anything Itachi can ditch out. Enough said.
I could also careless about what Zetsu said. He obviously didn't know people and attacks can come from underneath the half susanoo and enter it's confines cause if that's the case, he isn't invincible. I mean, Obito literally can just -Kamui's in-. Lol, wow so invincible. According to that statement, Itachi > Kaguya, Momoshiki/ w Kinshiki Absorbed, Jubi Madara, Jubi Obito, Current Naruto and Sasuke, and every other person in the series at the same time. Invincible means too powerful to be defeated. If you think I'm going to think Itachi can solo the entire Narutoverse at the same time, then woah. You reached new heights with your overplaying Itachi's abilities. Itachi couldn't even solo one of the stated people i presented, therefore the statement is debunked.
And the quote means everything. The fact is, your omnipotent Itachi was the one who stated they needed to use their most powerful attacks, all three of them. Therefore, Itachi > You, especially when you're arguing for him. Itachi stated all three of them needed to use their most powerful long range attacks. The Manga shown and Itachi stated it took all three of those attacks to destroy that core. Until you prove otherwise, that's what i'm abiding by. Manga and Itachi > You.
"Nagato also can't react to the blade. you are going against the manga on multiple fronts."
I've debunked this with my quote so i accept your concession. You have to prove why Nagato can't react to it since he wasn't the one in control. You're the one going against the manga by stating crud like this.
1 - Pein & Konan - do not ever underestimate the Rinnegan. Nagato flattened a whole village after a great deat of fighting with hundreds of shinobi, while Konan actually almost killed Obito if not for Izanagi which was boosted to high heavens by Hashirama cells.
2 - Obito and Zetsu - now i know they should be number 1. really, the war arc Obito can easily take on Pein and Konan duo and anyone else really, but we are taking him from his time in Akatsuki. he doesnt have that Rinnegan super buff and the fact that he almost died at the hands of Konan before the Rinnegan buff clearly shows that he could actually be taken down by the number 1 duo. Zetsu may be Kaguya's will, but the guy simply has shown no fighting prowess.
3 - Itachi and Kisame - two overhyped character that never really won anything solo. i mean, we can say that Kisame took down Roshi on his own, but we never saw the fight in canon or in the anime so we cannot be certain. also the two never really won any fights. forced to run from Konoha shinobi and later Jiraiya, got their dopplegangers ass kicked by Team Kakashi and Team Gai, Kisame got his ass thrashed by B and A and later with Gai. the only decisive victory so far was of Itachi against Sasuke and even then with all of his super buffs like Amaterasu, Tsukyomi, Susanoo, Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword and all he was still pushed to his limits by Hebi Sasuke. cry you might that Itachi all wanted Sasuke to win, but dont take away the fact that Sasuke pushed him to his limits. And that Pein win in the war, just dont, because it was a 3 on 1. Naruto, B and Itachi, all an S rank shinobi in its own right. Naruto could even be considered greater given that clones of his were actually going head on with Kage level shinobi. and just because Itachi could throw shuriken from blindspot of the Rinnegan means nothing. the fact that the 3 needed to use their strongest jutsu to destroy CHibaku Tensei should speak volumes of how Itachi could not solo Nagato. i mean, B fired a TBB, which could destroy a fucking village, while all Itachi fired were three or so Yasaka Magmata which is nothing compared to the damage of B's TBB. Itachi just used that shock of destruction of TBB and the dust and debris cover he provided to spear Nagato with his sword.
4 - Sasori and Diedra - all down to the latter and his C3 (i think that is the mini bombs one)
C4 is the mini-bombs that are actually pretty OP if not for the stupid range restriction
Yes. C4. my mistake there.
But OP they are not. i mean, see it as plot armour or not, C4 was dealt by Sasuke relatively easily.
Diedera's weakness is Raiton. so are that of all of his Jutsu. Just have someone use a Raiton around the area and all of his mini bombs are diffused.
it sounds cool. looks cool. but one Raiton user and it is nothing by clay particles.
and for Akatasuki.
we have Nagato-Konan duo who uses corpses to fight so no loss there. even then Rinnegan can see those mini bombs. Nagato actually can use Raiton. and even if doesnt use it he can simply blow them away by Shinra Tensei.
Obito and Zetsu - Obito was there and he survived. enough said. oh, also Sharingan.
Itachi and Kisame - SHaringan, enough said. Kisame has Samehada which can sense the bombs and wouldnt Samehada on contact with those mini bombs suck out their Chakra. it could suck Biju CHakra. It sucked a fireball from Itachi. so what is stopping it from sucking the Explosion chakra of the mini clay bombs.
Hidan and Kakuzu - Kakuzu also has Raiton. that is all about they can really do. but it wasnt like Sasuke needed Sharingan to deduce C4s working. he deduced simply by seeing things turning into dust and the distance Diedera himself kept. Sharingan just confirmed it for him. Even then i still keep Hidan and Kakuzu below Diedera and Sasori for that very reason
so is pain all the pains or just the push pull one. or is it Nagato because witch one it is makes a difference
Pein, no matter who, because of the Rinnegan can see chakra just like Sasuke did with the Sharingan.
Nagato certainly can use Raiton. just because he stopped doing so doesnt mean he can't. i mean the guy used the RIkudo no Jutsu through corpses, but once he was summoned as an Edo and didnt have any corpses he used Rikudo no Jutsu by himself.
Deva was shown in the anime to use Suiton against Naruto in his fight. so it is clear that the paths can also use Ninjutsu.
even without Raiton...
Deva can Shinra Tensei use Shinra Tensei the mini bombs. Preta can simply use his absorbtion on them. Animal probably has some summon that can use Raiton. and Nagato can do all that.
I would argue that Pain and Konan couldn't beat Obito. Kamui is just a really hacked power. Unless they are given prep time for Konan to set traps and push Obito, I don't really see Nagato capitalizing.