FANDOM


  • So apparently there's credible information that proves that Chidori boosts one's movement speed. Apparently the fact that the users suffer from Tunnel Vision proves this. So my question is, why hasn't anyone put it on the wiki if this is true? Or does the wiki indirectly state this?

      Loading editor
    • There are only two options left on this. Either Kakashi and Sasuke are idiots for using an expensive chakra taxing jutsu like Chidori, if it had no boost in speed. And that they could use a kunai and just run on their maximum speed avoiding a straight attack against their opponent.

      Or that Kakashi and Sasuke is benefited in the use of Chidori, as it grants the user boost that crosses their own maximum physical limit.

      As Guy stated, "It's just a mere thrust/Jab. A jutsu made for assination. It's secret lies in the speed of the technique"

      We've seen Kakashi channel Chidori over his Kunai to increase it's speed.

      We have seen that Chidori causes tunnel vision when running at that speed, to which people claim to be Lee's without weight. Even though Lee and Sasuke ran in different direction in that speed without any problem and that Lee had even further on went in faster speeds without a problem

      So, why isn't there even a hint in the boost in speed in the wiki page? And if the DB states that it increases the speed of the arm, then it simply means it does. Don't know how else a fast arm would be.

        Loading editor
    • Precisely, guy's character statments, kakashi's character statement, minato's character statement and the feat shown with kid kakashi trump a selective interpretation of rock lee's statement. If you interpret rock lee's statement correctly it properly fits with the rest of the evidence. the wiki even tells you the speed at which chidori is performed is what causes the tunnel vision, which full raiton armor or the sharingan can fix.

        Loading editor
    • If you truly believe that, and no one besides me disagrees then change it then. The speed at which it performs isn't evidence too me. Cause that just means you have to move at that speed. Doesn't mean you have a boost in speed.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not picking sides, but the "speed of the technique" and the "speed of the user" are two different things. You can easily trust your arm forward much faster than you can move your body forward, but thrusting your arm forward doesn't increase the overall speed of your entire body.

      And the Lightning Cutter page says Kakashi can flow the technique into a Kunai to enhance it's cutting power and throw the technique. It doesn't say anything about the Lightning Cutter increasing the kunai's speed.

      On one hand, the technique causes tunnel vision. On the other hand, the lightning itself isn't channeled throughout the entire body, within their legs, or even into their nervous system to even enhance the user's speed. As far as I can tell, it shouldn't enhance the user's speed honestly, though this contradicts the tunnel vision. *Shrugs*

      I never understood why it causes tunnel vision anyway outside of a "useless weakness" because such lightning being concentrated like that could easily cut or pierce the target regardless of speed, fast or slow. Anyway, it is what it is - very confusing. Oh, and the databook doesn't mention the techniques increasing the speed of the arm or increasing speed at all, but whatever.

        Loading editor
    • The databook states "a great amount of chakra is brought forth and concentrated into one arm. Furthermore, by running a long distance, this turns into a high-speed stab of destructive power!!" I guess they interpret that as boosting the user's speed.

        Loading editor
    • There is no speed boost with Chidori. It requires the user to move at high speeds to make the best use of the technique. That normally means moving at top speed. Most can't handle that speed due to the tunnel vision effect.

      BlazeRelease wrote: We've seen Kakashi channel Chidori over his Kunai to increase it's speed.

      It increases cutting power due to lightning adding vibration to the Kunai.

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote: It increases cutting power due to lightning adding vibration to the Kunai.

      My bad then, I imagined the scene little different.

      Littlegen wrote: There is no speed boost with Chidori. It requires the user to move at high speeds to make the best use of the technique. That normally means moving at top speed. Most can't handle that speed due to the tunnel vision effect.

      If the jutsu itslef requires the user to move at his top speed, then the roof top battle and Vote 1 and Vote 2, battle have issues with it. In the Rooftop battle, we see Sasuke using Chidori in the middle of the air. In Vote 1, we see him using it while standing, in Vote 2, we see him using it while standing after being beaten, injured and exhausted. So I truely doubt about the top speed requirement.

      Princeharris1993 wrote: I'm not picking sides, but the "speed of the technique" and the "speed of the user" are two different things. You can easily trust your arm forward much faster than you can move your body forward, but thrusting your arm forward doesn't increase the overall speed of your entire body.

      I don't think anyone said it increases the speed of the thrust only. As far as we saw, Sasuke and Kakashi run along with their Chidori, in speed they claim to cause tunnel Vision.

      On one hand, the technique causes tunnel vision. On the other hand, the lightning itself isn't channeled throughout the entire body, within their legs, or even into their nervous system to even enhance the user's speed. As far as I can tell, it shouldn't enhance the user's speed honestly, though this contradicts the tunnel vision. *Shrugs*
      

      I never understood why it causes tunnel vision anyway outside of a "useless weakness" because such lightning being concentrated like that could easily cut or pierce the target regardless of speed, fast or slow. Anyway, it is what it is - very confusing. Oh, and the databook doesn't mention the techniques increasing the speed of the arm or increasing speed at all, but whatever. </div> The only 'counter' to this Chidori's speed beinh over the whole bodu is the Lightning Armour argument. But if anyone actually takes a hint, then you can just see why the Lightning Armour out of nowhere was introduced with full on presentation about everything, including it's boosted reaction ability along with it's speed boost. It's to show why unlike the Kakashi or Sasuke, the Raikage can move accordinally without the Sharingan. It's how it was shown.

      And there are also some arguments about the Lightning flowing over the whole body. That's the purpose of the Lightning ARMOUR, a full body armour of Lightning.

      So far, there's nothing against the Chidori boosting the user's speed, since that's the whole "The Impossible speed it's used" "The Secret is in the speed of the jutsu" point of it. It's easier to assume that the boost in speed causes the user to cross over his natural/maximum limit and thus fall into a tunnel vision. We have already seen many other characters run faster than Lee without gates, and have been told to not experience any tunnel vision. It's just how it is.

        Loading editor
    • Well okay then

        Loading editor
    • Starscream1998 wrote: Well okay then

      Um....  :/

        Loading editor
    • What, seemed perfectly reasonable to me. Lightning = fast and Chidori = Lightning therefore Chidori = Fast. Voila mystery solved you can all go home now.

        Loading editor
    • The whole argument about chidori's speed being the normal user's speed doesn't make sense. Minato specficially told kakashi not to use chidori again because of the speed while using the jutsu causing tunnel vision for him. he didn't say anything about warning kakashi to not run in a straight line, to not run at his top speed. He clearly attributed the risk of tunnel vision to the jutsu itself. His normal running speed was never shown or implied to cause tunnel vision. It's clear as day to me. With the logic being used by the opposition, the tunnel vision issue would be fixed by simply running slower, or only using it while stationary. The fact that hokage kakashi, who is faster than kid rock lee, faster than kid sasuke, and faster than kid kakashi, no longer can use the raikiri is enough proof that no matter your speed, the technique causes tunnel vision because it boosts your speed beyond your normal limits. the user doesn't have a choice in the matter. If they run slower to compensate, all they are doing is giving their opponent more time to react. Their eyes and nervous system can't keep up with the unnatural speed boost added to their top speed without a sharingan or raiton armor. The technique is useless without a sharingan or raiton armor except for being a sharper kunai at this point for kakashi.

      The proof is that the same users who claim that people like naruto and minato always use their top running speed during battle are now claiming and or implying that they don't move at their top speed for fear of tunnel vision, when that was never stated or implied, and is outright contradicted by on panel feats, and after a certain point in the manga those two characters are way faster than weightless kid rock lee. It has nothing to do with running a straight line or your top speed capabilities, it's all chidori causing the tunnel vision.

        Loading editor
    • The whole argument that Chidori boosts one's speed, doesn't make sense.

      "By using the Body Flicker Technique, a ninja can move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed." ~ Body Flicker

      "By using Lightning Release, the user surrounds themselves with electricity in the form of armour. The intense electric field enhances the user's speed" ~ Lightning Strike Armour

      "The lightning chakra stimulates the user's nervous system, enhancing their speed and their reaction time." ~ Lightning Release Chakra Mode

      Every technique that grants a speed boost, is stated to grant a speed boost. Either on the Manga, Databook, or Wiki. Chidori is not stated to. If it did grant a speed boost, I doubt it wouldn't have been stated seeing as it's one of the most important techniques in the series and a signature technique for two main characters and it boosting one's speed seems like a pretty important detail I doubt anyone would neglect.

      "Swift Release (迅遁, Jinton, Viz: Quick Style) is a combined nature transformation kekkei genkai that can be used to move with incredible speed, becoming nothing more than a blur when in motion." ~ Swift Release

      Even Non canon techniques are stated to be fast when they're fast.

      Then the whole concentrating on the hand aspect of Chidori. What part of that makes sense? "If I concentrate my Lightning Chakra in this Hand, I can move fast." You can do that with Body Flicker, a General Skill. Literally everything you say Chidori is, can be done with Flicker. You can literally use Flicker to jab someone and get the same or even better results. Why would Kakashi invent a speed technique like this (If it was) as a replacement to Rasengan when he could of just used Body Flicker? Doesn't make a lick of sense. Especially when Body Flicker users, have their entire bodies vitalized thus don't seem to suffer from Tunnel Vision.

      Kakashi: "I'm going to use an inferior speed technique compared to the Flicker, give them that jab, and have a huge drawback. Even though I can do all that with Flicker, have a higher speed, and jab without a drawback."

      So doubtful.

        Loading editor
    • That's my point though. Why use raikiri if the body flicker and a kunai/sword can achieve the same thing in most situations? The opposition claims that chidori/raikiri offers no speed boost, yet users of chidori were shown and stated to have speed induced tunnel vision specifically when using that jutsu, and not any other time. So running at the same speed they normally do, but yet they all of a sudden have tunnel vision? I don't get it. All ninjas are using the body flicker technique when they move, straight line, circular movement, doesn't matter. Blazerelease said this in the first comment. kid kakashi must be an idiot because he is supposedly at minimum equal to weightless base rock lee who is equal to kid chunin exams sasuke in speed was literally running circles around gaara's sand. rock lee was able to literally run at his sand in a straight line, appear behind gaara, sees gaara's sand, reacts to it, and then appear rights in front of him again. Sasuke could achieve and displayed the same feat, so, why use raikiri as a linear and straight attack that causes tunnel vision when sasuke, rock lee and kakashi can run circles around an opponent like kid gaara without that at the same speed? The jutsu has the added benefit of speed, that's the only thing that makes sense, and is directly confirmed in the canon. You could argue that sasuke needed the chidori for gaara's ultimate defense, but that doesn't hold up because kid kakashi used it because of the power and speed. Hokage kakashi no longers uses the technique because of the aforementioned tunnel vision. Why would lightning chakra concentrated in the user's arm cause tunnel vision? the same reason why I say it boosts the user's speed beyond their normal limits, just as Might Gai stated in the canon. This is anime, Not everything makes intuitive and logical sense. You talk as if there are no statements that support this. Minato basically showed that kid kakashi lacked insight, as kid kakashi clearly thought it was safe to use the jutsu, but it nearly cost him his life. Minato needed to save him from Mahiru. Minato basically told kakashi that kakashi screwed up by trying to use an incomplete jutsu in battle. with the logic being used here, kakashi should have just used his body flicker and his sword and he would have killed mahiru without any issue, because his body flicker speed is supposedly the same as his chidori speed and doesn't cause tunnel vision, and the sword is sufficient to kill someone like mahiru who got one shotted by minato's kunai to the throat.

      The jutsu boosts their speed beyond their normal limits, that is the advantage. the disadvantage is that the boost in speed is not naturally accompanied by an increase in visual perception and reactions. the sharingan or raiton armor fill that gap. Hence the chidori and raikiri became complete. Now they can run at their opponent normally when using the speed boost. The tunnel vision does not come from merely using the body flicker, so people need to make up their mind on how the jutsu creates tunnel vision. and there is no evidence to suggest that hokage kakashi became slower, debunking the idea that the ability to use raikiri is dependent on being at a certain level of speed.

      As for the wiki not outright stating it like it did with those other jutsu, it is indeed interesting, when might gai clearly states so in the canon. The wiki still says that speed at which the technique is performed causes tunnel vision, which in of itself implies a speed boost because tunnel vision happens when your speed transcends your visual perception, which only has happened when kakashi used raikiri on top of his body flicker. So I don't see how the wiki is in disagreement.

        Loading editor
    • Except the argument still doesn't make sense even with it boosting speed. As I said, just increasing your speed and jabbing can be done with Body Flicker. You also don't get the same drawbacks. So that same argument also conflicts with your opinion.

        Loading editor
    • Increasing your speed with the body flicker will not induce tunnel vision because it doesn't push the user over their visual perception threshold. kakashi became faster than his kid self and he is able to use his faster body flicker without any issue. When you train your speed naturally there isn't a tunnel vision effect, because your body and mind seems to calibrate with your speed. but chidori seems to cause the tunnel vision effect because it has some weird multiplier that causes your current body limits to be surpassed. That's the only thing that makes sense with Gai's statement. If it was the body flicker then the characters would be talking about kakashi slowing down his body flicker and not telling him to throw away the technique all together. Minato himself is faster than chidori kid kakashi and yet he didn't suffer tunnel vision when he saved kakashi. it's a ratio of your speed to your body's limits.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Except it does due to the fact there is no feat that shows Chidori surpasses Flicker in speed. When Sasuke with his second Chidori and Gaara clashed, Gaara moved at the same speed as him. But when Sasuke used his flicker, he was able to easily dodge Gaara's attack and go out of sight. If Gaara can't keep up with Flicker but can keep up with Chidori, and even connect his hand with it; then obviously flicker is superior in speed. Also, if Chidori just boosts your speed; then Chidori Current, Senbon, Spear, Katana, and Kirin, wouldn't be possible.

        Loading editor
    • @loneninja

      Your comparison there is missing a few variables. Why would gaara be as fast as sasuke? clearly something has changed. In fact gaara was increasing in speed massively as more and more shukaku chakra leaked out. By chapter 128, sasuke admits the sharingan is the only thing allowing him to avoid gaara's attacks. Then in the the panel I believe you are referring to include them both jumping at each other, which skews things because a simple jump is not the same thing as running. after your first jump you can't pick up any more speed. So the gaara sasuke fought in the chunnin exam stadium is way slower than the one he was fighting in the forest. I see no signs that using chidori made sasuke slower, in fact both times he tagged gaara in the forest he was using chidori. The idea that chidori would make him slower is quite the leap, because we have been shown and told otherwise.

      those other chidori techniques are a bit different because most of the time sasuke is stationary while using them, they are mid-range and long range techniques. Hokage kakashi can still use raiton techniques but not raikiri or chidori, clearly indicating that the jutsu in base is different from the rest. If hokage kakashi cannot use the jutsu, it means the tunnel vision effect is serious, and the tunnel vision effect has been repeatedly attributed to the speed at which chidori is performed, a speed that pushes the limits of their body to the point it creates tunnel vision, meaning their mind and eyes loses the ability to propely perceive the world around them. It is impossible for chidori to be slower than the user's body flicker, when they are always using body flicker alongside their chidori.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Except for the fact people can react to Chidori, plenty of people see it as it occurs. Especially those with the Sharingan. But with Flicker, everyone can dodge with ease, replace themselves almost instantly, or/and get away. Gaara was able to get away from Lee's overwhelming speed and power in an instant with it. I've never seen Kakashi move as fast as he does, when he uses Flicker. Bee was able to escape Sasuke and his Sharingan with it. Is there a single Chidori speed feat that triumph over Body Flicker? I don't recall there being one.

      Also, Sasuke while barely moving could kill someone with Chidori. He literally just swung his arm at Sakura when she leaned over Karin and Kakashi intercepted it and stated "He really meant to kill her". So that alone disproves the speed boosting theory. It's clearly an attack that increases in power with more momentum.

      Then the design. If it was a speed boosting technique for the entire body, why is it only shown surrounding the arm?

      Then the collision with Rasengan aspect. If it's just a speed technique, there'd be no energy collision between the two. There certainly wouldn't be an explosion of energy that destroys people's arms.

        Loading editor
    • The chidori unintentionally increases one's speed. It was created as an alternative to the rasengan because kakashi couldn't add his nature to it.

      Kakashi thought he had created an assassination jutsu that could be used to pierce anything at any speed. But The manga shows that when lightning chakra is flowed into and around the body, their raw speed and reaction time is increased. The chidori increases the users cutting power, speed and defense(well the both of them never seem to complain of finger pain from hitting rocks.), but it does not increase the users reaction time to any noticeably advantegous effect.

      The only way to counteract this defect of the chidori is to use chakra flow and coat ones body in raiton armour(which kakashi lacks the chakra for) or to implant a sharingan(like he did with obito)

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja.

      Subsitution and body flicker are supposedly parent and daughter jutsu but there is more to that than meets the eye. We have seen characters who were immobilized using substiution to free themselves, such as animal path of Pain using substitution to escape Jiraiya's lion mane jutsu. Logically, a restrained target can't use body flicker, so this won't go down a logical road. Itachi was impaled by kabuto's sword and yet he reappears behind him. There isn't much consistency in how the jutsu works. Even the gaara situation is complicated, because kakashi attributed gaara's substitution to rock lee closing his eyes. In the second rock lee closed his eyes due to the pain gaara activated substitution and left a sand shell in his place. rock lee simply didn't notice it.


      Well that's the issue. How do we know when characters are using body flicker or not? There is no reliable or consistent indicator. Killer bee crossed a mountain in an instant yes, but that feat was a clear outlier. He hasn't used that kind of speed again. leaving two possibilities, either ninja don't use body flicker all the time or kishimoto is inconsistent. The idea that ninja don't use their body flicker all the time opens a troublesome can of worms. That whole debate about obito and kcm naruto's relative speed falls apart, as it would mean those shinobi weren't using the body flicker during their battles. I myself actually used to think that body flicker wasn't used that often, given that we have only seen A4 and Shisui really being known for their usage of body flicker in battle.

      So, this body flicker thing opens up another can of worms. And as I said before, the chidori can still be used as a sharper kunai in CQC. The issue comes when you start running with it at your top speed or while using the body flicker. that's when the tunnel vision happens. nothing is stopping sasuke or even hokage kakashi from weaving handsigns and creating chidori in their hand. the issue has always been the running speed with the jutsu.

      And as for chidori creating tunnel vision even though it's only in one arm, again anime logic. It doesn't make logical or intuitive sense, but that's how kishimoto designed it. I would agree with your argument if it wasn't clear from Kakashi gaiden that the technique's speed causes a problem for the user, to the point minato basically banned kakashi from using it again. He didn't tell kakashi not to run a straight line. he didn't tell kakashi not to use the body flicker. he said don't use chidori in the context of not being able to see the opponent's counter.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Body Flicker is usually stated when used or hinted with a puff of smoke. That's how we know when it's used. Sometimes, the user can utilize their element or individual abilities, such as Sasuke's fire or an animal. What we know about Flicker is that it's fast and faster than Chidori in feats, cause as you said; it has been used to get out of impossible situations.

      Your argument about it being anime logic can be used to disagree with you, so that isn't an answer. It gives tunnel vision even though it doesn't boost one's speed because it's anime logic. That's an answer that should never be used especially when you are arguing about something never stated. It has never been stated to boost one's speed. That is indeed a fact. All that is stated is that the speed which Chidori is performed, can cause Tunnel Vision. That does not = speed boost. That can mean a variety of things. The reference you use with Minato, can also be used against you. In that very instance he states the technique is a thrust focused on one single point. Every statement states it focused on a single part. The arm. How does focusing your chakra in your arm, boost your movements? The answer is, it doesn't. Sure Lightning can boost one's speed /IF/ it is concentrated on the stimulating the nervous system. But Chidori only focuses on the arm which would mean only the arm at best would get the speed boost. That's only if it electrically stimulates the user's nervous system which it doesn't since it's concentrated on the arm.

      Moving back to Chidori vs Flicker. Obviously Flicker is superior to Chidori in speed. So there'd be no reason Kakashi to create Chidori unless it focused on Lightning's cutting power. For Kakashi, it's most effective with momentum. The faster you go, the stronger it it is. More proof is the derivations of the Chidori. Each one obviously is cutting power. None of them rely on speed.

      Then the big reason is Lee. You can disregard what he says, but no statement disproves what he said. All anyone has said is that Chidori is performed at a high speed that causes Tunnel Vision. Everyone has also said Lee moves extremely fast. Lee said Sasuke had his former speed that he lost to Gaara's sand attack while Sasuke used Chidori. Lee also said if he attacked in a straight line, he'd suffer from Tunnel Vision. Sure he might have done it, that doesn't mean he didn't suffer from it. It's also stated before using Chidori, that Sasuke was at the same speed as Lee. So before and after using Chidori, he was still at Lee's Speed which is a big red flag.

      Red Flags that show it doesn't boost speed: The no speed change against Gaara. The derivations not boosting speed. The Lightning not stimulating the nervous system and being focused on the arm thus can't boost speed since that's the only way Lightning boosts speed as far as I am aware of. Body Flicker's superiority. Body Flicker being a skill Kakashi knows. Chidori being used on objects. The big one: Never being stated when ALL speed enhancements are stated in the Manga, Databook, or Wiki to boost one's speed, Chidori does not on a single one.

        Loading editor
    • 1) The body flicker is indicated by smoke sometimes but that hasn't been a regularly used marker through out the canon. Body flicker can't be used to get out of impossible situations, that's what FTG is for. Once you are caught and restrained by a technique you can't use body flicker to escape, body flicker is nothing more than high speed movement, running speed. By that logic, kcm naruto should have been able to escape nagato's chameleon tongue using body flicker, but he couldn't. subsitution is different in my opinion. it's almost a borderline space time ninjutsu based on feats. Itachi was in a comparable situation to kcm naruto when he was impaled by the blade in mid-air. there is no way he can use his body flicker-foot speed in that situation. I also have seen no evidence that kakashi and sasuke aren't using their body flicker technique when they are running with chidori. why exactly would they suddenly stop using their top speed in battle?


      2) Tunnel vision inherently means speed boost because no one has suffered tunnel vision in any other context. Every character has ran at their opponent in a straight line before. we might as well say kcm minato had tunnel vision when he ran at Juubito and that's why he lost his arm lol. That would make Minato an idiot because he basically did the same thing he told kakashi not to do. I believe Minato is smart, so him running in a straight line didn't generate tunnel vision, he was simply outmaneuvered by obito. Minato clearly stated the speed at which kakashi was using chidori caused tunnel vision. By your logic, minato should have told kakashi to run in circles around mahiru as opposed to a straight line instead of abandoning chidori as a jutsu all together. Guy clearly stated the stabbing speed of chidori pushes the limits of the human body. Idk how much more clear they can be on the subject. Rock lee's weightless speed does not cause tunnel vision. I already referenced you a panel of rock lee reacting to gaara's sand in the middle of his blitz. Where was his tunnel vision then? The source of confusion is these lexical ambiguities. "stabbing speed" obviously needs context to it, and the context stabbing speed has been used in as always been with the user's running speed. why would standing in one position, not moving your legs, but simply swinging your arm cause tunnel vision? As I said before, there isn't anything stopping hokage kakashi from using raikiri like that, he simply can't use it in battle while he is running or he is dead. hence he has found the need to stop using the technique all together and uses other raiton techniques in it's place.

      3) This is already debunked by hokage kakashi not being able to use raikiri/chidori, while he is able to use other raiton techniques. He didn't stop using the raikiri for the lolz, the speed induced tunnel vision is a serious problem since he has lost his sharingan.

      4) The problem isn't rock lee's statement, the problem is the interpretation. Rock lee never said that sasuke's chidori speed was the same as the weightless speed. That wouldn't make sense. Rock lee clearly says he wouldn't and CAN"T run at that speed, because then he wouldn't be able to see the opponent's counter, meaning rock lee has never used that speed in that manner. which is obvious, because rock lee isn't a user of chidori. The next panel has also been widely misinterpreted. when rock lee says that sasuke has the same body speed, he is obviously referring to the pure weightless speed. Rock lee is obviously still faster when gates come into play. Rock lee and Eight gates Gai never were shown to experience tunnel vision and yet they move in a straight line much of the time, and in gates, they are faster than most other characters. Why? because the opening of the gates probably boosts their mind as much as does the body, hence no tunnel vision.

      5) There aren't any red flags though. The reason I say anime logic in this case is because all other possibilities are ruled out. I already stated that the issue with raikiri/chidori is the speed to bodylimit/visual processing ratio. If you are using a speed boost that your mind can't keep up with, you are going to have tunnel vision. This has only been an issue with raikiri/chidori. The fact that the chakra isn't stimulating his nervous system simply proves why they are experiencing tunnel vision. the chakra is concentrated in his arm, and yet it causes tunnel vision while they are RUNNNING, which uses the legs lol. That alone should tell you that kishimoto isn't using a logical framework for the mechanics of the jutsu. His logic is that chakra to the arm gives a running speed boost that induces tunnel vision. doesn't make sense, but it's his manga. As for characters reacting to chidori/raikiri, that's because raikiri is simply a speed boost, if the gap in speed is too great using raikiri won't save you. Gaara reacted to sasuke's chidori only after he himself underwent a massive boost in speed. Gaara went from having 0 speed feats to being faster than weightless lee.

        Loading editor
    • 1) You do realize Substitution is Body Flicker except you just grab an object to put in your place right? Not to mention, Flicker is rated higher so more effective? I don't see any evidence to suggests Substitution does anything Flicker can't.

      2) Tunnel vision just means you can't see properly while you run straight. That isn't evidence to suggest Chidori boosts speed. That just says when someone runs really fast, they can't see well. Lee said if he ran at that speed IN A STRAIGHT LINE, he wouldn't see well.

      3) Not been debunked due to the fact Sasuke was able to use Chidori stand still. Kakashi obviously just has a preference of running at his target as fast as possible. Or he'd be using the derived versions of Chidori.

      4) You say that Lee was talking about Sasuke while using Chidori, being the same speed as weightless Lee? You are right. He was. So there's no change from Sasuke prior to Chidori, and while using Chidori.

      5) "I accept your concession". You didn't address all the red flags. Also, that isn't Kishimoto's logic. He NEVER STATED IT BOOSTS SPEED. Like literally never stated it. That's just your interpretation. Interpretation that has been wrong again and again. So forgive me if I don't trust your interpretation especially when mine see's differently. Literally every technique directly flat out states it boosts the user's speed. Chidori does not. That's a huge red flag.

        Loading editor
    • 1) There is plenty. Again my point about KCM naruto and bee still stands. where was their body flicker when they were restrained by Nagato? enough said. Only FTG users can escape that predicament they were in. Where do the random logs come from? where did itachi's crows come from against sage mode kabuto? if substitution is mere high speed movement then where was this high speed movement in other instances? If substitution really works the way kishimoto described then why did kcm naruto fail to use his body flicker in order to save his own life? Pain was able to escape jiraiya's lion mane jutsu despite being physically unable to move. That isn't physically possible without the use of a space time technique.

      2) We are going in circles at this point. Tunnel vision has never been stated or shown to be caused by running in a straight line. This is debunked in almost every fight in the manga. tunnel vision has only been attributed to running with chidori or raikiri without the aid of sharingan or ration armor. that same weightless rock lee ran in a straight line without any tunnel vision issues multiple times. IDK what else to tell you. Might Gai debunks you. Minato telling kakashi to never use chidori again debunks you. nowhere did he tell kakashi to stop running in a straight line.

      3) Debunked. raikiri and chidori only cause the tunnel vision effect when running, which is the whole point of why you need a sharingan to use it while running. the speed supplied by the jutsu pushes the normal limits of the user. I've always said kakashi can still use it while standing still, but at that point he might as well use a kunai.

      4) Debunked by point 2. Sasuke gains a speed boost with chidori that would cause tunnel vision if he lacked the "special eye". You select one line out of rock lee's statement without looking at the words he used,"that speed", "can't", "wouldn't", "in that manner", putting all those phrases together means he is clearly referring to the speed boost sasuke gained from using chidori. weightless and gateless Rock lee is equal to sasuke's base speed so he is obviously saying that he if he learned the chidori while using the weightless speed the boost would push him over the edge. Chidori's speed would push him over the edge. you can't just look at rock lee's statement in a vacuum, his comments are directly a result of hearing Might Gai's dialogue on the jutsu.

      5) Gai stated that raikiri/chidori produces a stabbing speed that pushes the limits of the human body, what more do you want from me?

        Loading editor
    • @combat: Substitution is Body Flicker+fakeout. Sometimes genjutsu is used to enhance the effect. Whenever a character substituted while being held then they werent as secure as they appeared to be.

      @Lone: Characters like Lee/Minato/Body Flicker users are capable of training and adjusting their perception to their high speeds because they can constantly move at that speed. Their max speed wont ever suddenly increase so much that their perception cant keep up. There is generally a correlation between max speed and max perception because they grow alongside one another.

      Chidori, however, is faster than lightning. The speed of Chidori will always be added to the users max speed and because the increase in speed is so drastic, their perception wont ever be able to keep up.

      KCM Naruto literally broke his ankle because he didnt have control over his speed but after some training it wasnt a problem.

      A is a special case because his Raiton Armor also increases the speed of his synapses

      As for Body Flicker during combat, its possible that the are constantly using body flicker during high level combat.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      "There is plenty. Again my point about KCM naruto and bee still stands. where was their body flicker when they were restrained by Nagato? enough said."

      Lol, this made me die of laughter. That's really your argument that proves Substitution > Body Flicker? That's pretty comical since I didn't see a Substitution in that instance either.

      2) "We are going in circles at this point. Tunnel vision has never been stated or shown to be caused by running in a straight line."

      You're missing the point. Lee didn't say he couldn't run at that speed. He said,

      "I wouldn't run with that speed straight into my opponent in that manner... Actually I can't do it... A straight forward attack makes it easy for the opponent to counter... and I don't have the eye to see that counter..."

      Chidori's problem isn't tunnel vision. It's the fact it can be reacted and countered. If the technique was even remotely as fast as you claim it to be, that wouldn't be a problem.

      3) You said it was a speed booster. How would it kill if it's stand still? So Debunked by yourself.

      4) He said that speed cause he didn't have it anymore. News Flash, he was in a cast for a reason. And no he clearly wasn't. He was clearly making a statement on why he wouldn't attack the way he did. The second part of the statement wouldn't exist if it was about the speed. You're taking words and making the topic about something never stated by him. He never said he couldn't run that fast. He said he couldn't attack like that without the eye to see. So debunked by Lee.

      5) No he said, "it's known for it's stabbing speed that pushes the limits of the human body... And the huge amount of Chakra is focused in one arm. WAIT. If it boosts speed wouldn't it be spread throughout the body? And wait stabbing speed isn't movement speed? Huh?

      What I want is simple. JUST LIKE EVERY SPEED TECHNIQUE, I WANT A DIRECT STATEMENT OF THE TECHNIQUE BOOSTING SPEED. The fact it is not directly stated and EVERY speed technique is, proves my case. It has to be directly stated that it boosts speed either in the Manga, Databook, or Wiki or it simply does not since all speed boosting techniques are DIRECTLY stated to boost speed.

        Loading editor
    • Chapter 240. Minato tells him that because of his speed he cant see an opponants counter. He specifically said Chidori has too much thrust.

      Dude, your quote has Lee outright state he doesnt have the eye to see the counter.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      Thrust = foot speed? Fail to see how that is.

      What does him not having Sharingan have to do with him not being able to move fast?

        Loading editor
    • @Lone. All three of jutsus you mentioned above, to increase in speed were modes. Chidori is sort of a single use jutsu, ending after it get's it's target or maybe after the user releases it.

      So far, we have seen many instances of Chidori being said to cause tunnel visiom because of the speed it's used. Now if a Chidori doesn't give you speed boost, then wouldn't the user be able to lower down his own speed? Wouldn't that have solved the tunnel vision problem? You can't say that the user is required to use his top speed while running, since we already have many instances of Chidori being used while in midair, while standing, while standing and holding your enemy, and while being exhausted and standing.

      Remember that Kakashi was also famed for using Chidori to cut a bolt of Lightning.

      I guess since this is a thread for adding the Chidori speed boost to the Chidori page, it won't be easy for you to just skip everything we said, eh?

        Loading editor
    • Really Lone? Go read the chapter. Minato says that the speed of movement with Chidori makes him unable to see the enemy if the counter. Minato spells it out fairly clearly that he is referring to the intense forward momentum cause by Chidori.

      You want your direct statement its in 240.

        Loading editor
    • @LoneNinja

      I'm happy you got a laugh. My point still stands. The body flicker technique cannot be used when you are physically unable to move is my point. whereas we have on panel evidence of people using substitution when they are physically unable to move, meaning the technique almost functions like FTG at times. There is clearly inconsistent writing when it comes to substitution.

      2) lol what does this prove? A straightforward attack is easy to counter in any battle because your opponent can obviously see you coming? why do you think ninjas try to take you from behind? because you can't see the attack coming. The human eye has a easier time tracking straight forward movement compared to diagonal and sideways movement as well. The issue isn't running a straight line, this has been debunked. The issue is running in a straight line at a speed your body can't handle, which causes tunnel vision, which then causes you to be unable to see your opponent's counter. minato bans kakashi from using chidori, he never told kakashi to stop running in a straight line. Up to now you have failed to refute this point. and no, raikiri isn't some insta win button. it provides a speed boost. if my speed is 100 and your speed is 200, and raikiri only boosts my speed to 150, I'm still too slow to catch you lol. in the event this is the case, using raikiri without a sharingan would be suicide for kakashi. if his opponent can't react he wins, but if they can react he dies.

      3) lol no. I said the raikiri can still be created in the arm. You can still stand still and use it to cut objects directly in front of you. the problem is when you start running with it at your top speed. the speed boost causes tunnel vision if you don't have a sharingan/etc. kakashi has no reason to risk using the raikiri in battle when he has other raiton techniques that don't cause tunnel vision if he has to be on the move with his running speed, like the purple lightning. You cited sasuke trying to kill sakura with chidori. well, newsflash he could have easily achieved that with a kunai instead of wasting extra chakra on a chidori that he was using while standing in one spot.

      4) Lol, very clever, but no. Because by your own logic sasuke is as fast as crippled rock lee lol. The dude rock lee literally confessed he wouldn't and can't run at that speed, meaning he has never used that speed in that manner before lol. why ? because he hasn't used chidori before? rock lee isn't an idiot. he knows he has attacked people in a straight line before using his top speed, he is simply saying he wouldn't use a tunnel vision -generating speed while running in a straight line at his opponent. In other words, he wouldn't use chidori. if you read carefully enough rock lee is basically saying the same thing minato said to kid kakashi. Chidori is a terrible jutsu to use while running unless you have a sharingan or raiton armor. 5) lol except the stabbing speed has always been referenced to the user's running speed with chidori?

        Loading editor
    • It's never stated to boost speed. EVERY SPEED TECHNIQUE is stated to boost speed. Every single one. Not one hasn't been flat out stated "Yo, this thing boosts the user's speed". "This thing makes the user faster". All that's stated for Chidori is that it is performed fast. That's it. Nothing else.

      At the end of the day it ain't on the wiki. It ain't in the Databook. It ain't in the Manga. What you guys given me as "evidence" is just an interpretation of what you think. Just because someone is moving fast doesn't mean they have a speed boost.

      We're obviously not going to see eye to eye. I don't see what you see, and you don't see what i see. Obviously, it's not going to change. So until the wiki is changed, Chidori does not boost speed. Bottom line.

        Loading editor
    • well that's unfortunate. So basically you ignored minato's statement, you ignored might gai's statement, you ignored the fact that hokage kakashi, who is way faster than weightless part one rock lee can no longer use the jutsu the way he used to. You would think that he would simply stop running in a straight line if that was the issue, and then he can continue using his favorite jutsu of all time, the one jutsu in his arsenal he created, just like he used to. and then also misinterpreted rock lee's statement. Lol but that's the ironic part, it is on the wiki: "The speed at which the Chidori is performed, despite being one of its greatest assets, also represents one of its biggest drawbacks: users move at their target so fast that its causes a tunnel vision-like effect for them"The wiki clearly tells us the speed at which the jutsu is performed causes tunnel vision, and they show you a picture of sasuke running with the jutsu lol. when the jutsu isn't in use and the shinobi runs at their top speed, there isn't any tunnel vision. All it would take is a simple clarification and the editing in of gai's statement. But even as it is now, it's still clear to me. I have no idea how this became so unclear for people, but apparently it is, as you have others also saying things like rock lee's speed being needed to use chidori in the first place, when that was never stated lol. rock lee's speed wouldn't cause tunnel vision. by that logic both might gai and rock lee are idiots.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote:

      I'm happy you got a laugh. My point still stands. The body flicker technique cannot be used when you are physically unable to move is my point. whereas we have on panel evidence of people using substitution when they are physically unable to move, meaning the technique almost functions like FTG at times. There is clearly inconsistent writing when it comes to substitution.

      This just means that they werent as secure as we were lead to believe. A ploy on the part of the "captured" character

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: It's never stated to boost speed. EVERY SPEED TECHNIQUE is stated to boost speed. Every single one. Not one hasn't been flat out stated "Yo, this thing boosts the user's speed". "This thing makes the user faster". All that's stated for Chidori is that it is performed fast. That's it. Nothing else.

      Cause Chidori isn't like the ones you mention. It works by pushing the user to a speed he cannot react properly. It doesn't boost speed as modes do, it does in the sense of it's own purpose. Modes boost the physical speed of the user, while Chidori is more like jutsu that is used for a target and to end with that. The user doesn't gain a speed boost, but the Chidori seeminly grants him extra speed for the duration of the technique. As Guy himself states, "the secret lies in the speed, the impossible speed", the jutsu has it's own granted speed, so far as we seen with lightning release jutsus, Kirin, Lightning Armour, Madara's Dark Lightning jutsu, so far we seen every lightning jutsu working on the principle of cutting power, shocking power and speed power. Chidori itself is mentioned to have an impossible speed, that so far has made it dangerous, even by the eyes of the Fastest man in the series. Thus making the jutsu forbidden.

      Now, you desiring simple words as boost in speed and such is not all logical, with what the Manga stands. It's like you're stating Minato doesn't teleport through his tagged kunai's but run from each kunai to another, because he was never stated so.

      At the end of the day it ain't on the wiki. It ain't in the Databook. It ain't in the Manga. What you guys given me as "evidence" is just an interpretation of what you think. Just because someone is moving fast doesn't mean they have a speed boost. 
      

      You do know the edit option is to remove the wrong info and add the right ones, as in the wiki simply isn't the ultimate source of truth. And do I need to talk about the DB? And the Manga and Anime has far shown prove of our statement rather yours, buddy.

        Loading editor
    • The wiki might not be the "ultimate source of truth" but it's definitely more viable than three randoms I know nothing of. The Databook is written by Kishimoto. The writer's word definitely holds more value than your three's when it comes to Naruto. Finally, the Manga doesn't show anything of what you guy's suggests. According to you guys, Chidori boosts you so fast, that you suffer from Tunnel Vision. Yet, if it's so fast why is there even a worry that it might miss? Why can mere fodder easily react to it? The answer, it just isn't fast. The mere fact that it's "easy" to react to, let me emphasize that... easy~ Lee, Wiki. Minato's whole reason for shutting it down is because it can be countered with ease. Not because it's fast. Not because of tunnel vision. It's because it can be countered and you're not going to be able to see it coming. If it moved remotely as fast as you claim it to be, it wouldn't be countered and tunnel vision wouldn't be an issue since the target would be dead before they could do anything. But it's not. And for other reasons stated above.

      In the end, nothing flat out states it. You can say it's different or w.e but the truth is all techniques that boost speed are stated to. Period. There hasn't been a single case showing otherwise.

      Now i'm going to be really busy with classes and work, so our debate on this is pretty much over unless this is still going on in a few weeks, which i doubt seeing as you guys probably aren't going to change the wiki anyways which is evidence enough for me.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote:

      According to you guys, Chidori boosts you so fast, that you suffer from Tunnel Vision. Yet, if it's so fast why is there even a worry that it might miss?
      

      Well, there is no worry it might miss, there is worry that they will be attacked while charging and they won't see or react. Because as the wiki says: "they charge in a straight line it is easy for opponents to attack them, and because of the tunnel vision it is difficult for the user to see these attacks, much less react to them."

      Why can mere fodder easily react to it?
      

      Where did this happen?

      The answer, it just isn't fast. The mere fact that it's "easy" to react to, let me emphasize that... easy~ Lee, Wiki.

      It is fast. Why is it that a point is made about the speed of the users movements if it isn't fast?

      Minato's whole reason for shutting it down is because it can be countered with ease. Not because it's fast. Not because of tunnel vision.

      Wrong. Chapter 240 page 14 shows that minato shut it down because It was fast but kakashi couldn't see his opponents counter, making it an incomplete jutsu.

      It's because it can be countered and you're not going to be able to see it coming.

      minato actually says that he would be moving so fast, he wouldn't see the enemies counter.

      If it moved remotely as fast as you claim it to be, it wouldn't be countered and tunnel vision wouldn't be an issue since the target would be dead before they could do anything. But it's not. And for other reasons stated above.

      Already shown why this is wrong.

      In the end, nothing flat out states it. You can say it's different or w.e but the truth is all techniques that boost speed are stated to. Period. There hasn't been a single case showing otherwise.

      the truth is the chidori is known for it's speed. if it didn't boost speed, this tunnel vision thing would be a common problem for shinobi and they would have to be moving at slower speeds all the time.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: The wiki might not be the "ultimate source of truth" but it's definitely more viable than three randoms I know nothing of.

      CHAPTER 240

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Finally, the Manga doesn't show anything of what you guy's suggests. According to you guys, Chidori boosts you so fast, that you suffer from Tunnel Vision.

      CHAPTER 240!

      Kakashi couldnt see a guy who was like, a foot and a half to the side of him.

      Minato explained that Chidori made Kakashi too fast to see an enemy's counter.

      The manga doesnt say the exact words "tunnel vision" given what we saw and what Minato said, the phenomena is similar to tunnel vision.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Yet, if it's so fast why is there even a worry that it might miss? Why can mere fodder easily react to it? The answer, it just isn't fast.

      Kakashi took out 17/18 targets no problem. The dude that managed to dodge the attack was watching Kakashi come at him from a distance

      LoneNinja wrote:

      The mere fact that it's "easy" to react to, let me emphasize that... easy~ Lee, Wiki. Minato's whole reason for shutting it down is because it can be countered with ease. Not because it's fast. Not because of tunnel vision. It's because it can be countered and you're not going to be able to see it coming.

      How are gonna ignore the part of Lee's quote where he says he doesmt have the eyes needed to see the counter? You are the one that quoted him saying it.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      In the end, nothing flat out states it. You can say it's different or w.e but the truth is all techniques that boost speed are stated to. Period. There hasn't been a single case showing otherwise.

      Chapter 240. And your quote from Lee made it clear that the biggest problem is that IF an opponant counters, the user CANT SEE THEM

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      The "randoms" you are talking about have proven you wrong already. The proof is that you still haven't addressed the major arguments. You even then twist/ ignore the bulk of minato's statement. That's enough proof for me, on top of your continued strawman arguments which attempt to misdirect the focus of the thread. A moderator already debunked your claim, your whole editing the wiki strawman has been debunked. Furthermore, the wiki already makes it clear that the running speed of chidori is the greatest asset, and that it's drawback is tunnel vision. It's clear you don't look at the evidence critically in this case.

      And I like how you called Mahiru a fodder, when he was clearly portrayed to be stronger than kakashi ( a low level jounin) and obito, and a user of tajuu kage bunshin. he even has a name, proving he isn't some complete scrub. he actually deserved to die by the yellow flash's kunai.

      @LegionZero. well that's the thing. even the likes of kid sakura seemed to be teleporting around when she used the substitution.

        Loading editor
    • Ohhh. You guys actually replied faster than i thought you would. Depending on your next one, I might be able to squeeze another reply.

      But now you guy's switched up. Your holding onto Minato's statement now as evidence.

      I know very well about Chapter 240. The wiki even makes note of that very chapter as evidence that people can react to Chidori with ease.

      "Because they charge in a straight line it is easy for opponents to attack them, and because of the tunnel vision it is difficult for the user to see these attacks, much less react to them. For this reason, most ninja cannot use the Chidori safely"[Chapter 240, Chidori].

      You guys interpret Minato's words as a speed boost even though the word boost is never used. The wiki interprets it as this attack is easy to react to. And it is.

      EVERYONE literally has reacted to the Chidori except fodder. People have literally controlled the outcome against Chidori. Rin who was next to Kakashi, was able to easily just stroll in the way and get cut down, guess she's faster than Chidori Kakashi. Haku was able to easily sense and jump in the way with ease. Mere Genin see it as it occurs. A mere fodder like Mahiru could react to it. Mahiru is definitely a fodder, since fodder are useless, no named, or characters just shown to die. According to your guy's logic, Jonin Kakashi with Chidori should be faster than Genin Lee without weights. If that is the case, why is tunnel vision a problem? If you got that speed, 90% of the Shinobi population shouldn't be able to react to it. Period. Yet, Kakashi is scared to use it? People all say it's easy to be countered? No logic.

      @Ruthless

      "It is fast. Why is it that a point is made about the speed of the users movements if it isn't fast?"

      Because the user themselves are just moving really fast. There's no boost. The reason speed is such a big deal for Chidori is due to the fact Chidori is amplified in power due to how fast the user is. This is the reason Kakashi trained Sasuke to move fast. If it just boosts your speed, there'd be no reason for Sasuke to have to train his speed against Gaara who was a standstill fighter. All he would do and did do, was rush him and broke through the sand shield.

      @Combat "The "randoms" you are talking about have proven you wrong already. The proof is that you still haven't addressed the major arguments."

      Actually you haven't. Because if you did, the wiki would of been changed already if I was so clearly wrong.

      And off topic? This topic is about changing Chidori's page? What do you mean off topic? You guys changing the page has everything to do with the topic. If you don't plan on changing it, why are you even on this thread cause that's what the thread is about? A Moderator debunked my claim? What claim? That the vs debates are toxic to most moderators? I clearly debunked your claim they did when i posted direct quotes from them. 3+ > 1. Majority. Simple math. Why is that even relevant to the discussion? You're sort of right, the wiki makes speed at which the Chidori is performed, clear. So why doesn't it make a speed boost clear like every other speed technique? Go look. Every single one flat out states it boosts the user's speed or makes them faster. Chidori is the only one? Doubtful. If Chidori had such an ability, i doubt anyone wouldn't make that clear seeing as it's one of the most important techniques in the series. All chidori is, is a stab. Nothing more, nothing less. Gai made that clear. It wouldn't be a simple stab if it boosts one's speed. He would of said "It's a technique that boosts one's speed greatly and the user then stabs the person." No. He said Chidori is a "simple stab" that heightens the flesh of the arm and with the user's speed it makes the "chi chi chi". Actually let me be exact with what he said. He said Chidori is a "Simple stab" and "the great amount of Chakra that creates the heightened flesh because the Chakra is concentrated in the hand". So it's obvious what Chidori does. It just heightens the arm. Nothing more, nothing less.

      @Legion 240 doesn't flat out state boost in speed, so why do you keep using that? As I stated, the wiki doesn't take that as it boosts one's speed. It takes that chapter and everything said as it's easily seen and countered. Yes speed is involved. Yes, the user is fast. I don't deny that. I deny the point Chidori amplifies the user's speed. So this chapter of Minato saying Kakashi's "movements are so fast", is just me seeing Kakashi can be fast. Nothing more. I didn't ignore Lee's statement. I clearly used it in my statement. "You aren't going to see it coming"? Also, no. It's not a if, Lee made it very very clear that it's easy. He literally flat out said it's easy to be countered. He was very direct and can't be misdirected. "If" did not come from his lips. It's a matter of when it's countered. If it was such a big speed boost, the user wouldn't have to worry about being countered. They'd be able to blitz with ease. Hit before the opponent can react. But that ain't the case. Cause the user can't move as fast as you claim they can.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote:

      But now you guy's switched up. Your holding onto Minato's statement now as evidence.

      Because you denied the initial evidence so we use more evidence. I for one am not regarding the former claims as debunked. Just using a different piece of evidence since you refuse the last one

      LoneNinja wrote:

      I know very well about Chapter 240. The wiki even makes note of that very chapter as evidence that people can react to Chidori with ease.

      "Because they charge in a straight line it is easy for opponents to attack them, and because of the tunnel vision it is difficult for the user to see these attacks, much less react to them. For this reason, most ninja cannot use the Chidori safely"[Chapter 240, Chidori].

      Lets look at the paragraph as a whole.

      • The speed at which the Chidori is performed, despite being one of its greatest assets, also represents one of its biggest drawbacks: users move at their target so fast that its causes a tunnel vision-like effect for them. Because they charge in a straight line it is easy for opponents to attack them, and because of the tunnel vision it is difficult for the user to see these attacks, much less react to them. For this reason, most ninja cannot use the Chidori safely.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      You guys interpret Minato's words as a speed boost even though the word boost is never used. The wiki interprets it as this attack is easy to react to. And it is.

      Minato describes the speed from the thrust of the justu being the problem.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      EVERYONE literally has reacted to the Chidori except fodder. People have literally controlled the outcome against Chidori. Rin who was next to Kakashi, was able to easily just stroll in the way and get cut down, guess she's faster than Chidori Kakashi.

      Please show me the part where it was shown/stated that Kakashi was moving or that attack was intended for anyone else. He wasnt even shocked that she was stabbed. Just because she walked into it doesn’t mean Kakashi didn’t set up for her to do it.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Haku was able to easily sense and jump in the way with ease. Mere Genin see it as it occurs.

      Mere Genin? What are you on? Haku was Jonin level+. Zabuza admitted that Haku was stronger than him. Haku was also faster than most people could see, even with the Sharingan.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      A mere fodder like Mahiru could react to it. Mahiru is definitely a fodder, since fodder are useless, no named, or characters just shown to die.

      Jonin level opponent.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      According to your guy's logic, Jonin Kakashi with Chidori should be faster than Genin Lee without weights. If that is the case, why is tunnel vision a problem? If you got that speed, 90% of the Shinobi population shouldn't be able to react to it. Period. Yet, Kakashi is scared to use it? People all say it's easy to be countered? No logic.

      If Kakashi's max speed was equal to weightless Lee, then Chidori would still have a tunnel vision(without Sharingan) problem because the speed of Chidori would be added on top of that.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Chidori is the only one? Doubtful. If Chidori had such an ability, i doubt anyone wouldn't make that clear seeing as it's one of the most important techniques in the series. All chidori is, is a stab. Nothing more, nothing less. Gai made that clear. It wouldn't be a simple stab if it boosts one's speed. He would of said "It's a technique that boosts one's speed greatly and the user then stabs the person." No. He said Chidori is a "simple stab" that heightens the flesh of the arm and with the user's speed it makes the "chi chi chi".

      Gai used a gross over-simplification of what Chidori does, which he elaborates on shortly after on how its speed pushes the bodies limits.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Actually let me be exact with what he said. He said Chidori is a "Simple stab" and "the great amount of Chakra that creates the heightened flesh because the Chakra is concentrated in the hand". So it's obvious what Chidori does. It just heightens the arm. Nothing more, nothing less.

      What bunk translation are you reading?? heightens the flesh? this phrase makes no sense. Do you just read 1 translation? because I check multiple and there is only one that says that.

      Every time Chidori is talked about, speed is referenced as part of the jutsu itself.

      • Ch. 114 p 3: Gai says it is known for its stabbing speed that pushes the limits of the human body
      • CH 240 p2: Kakashi say It’s the same as your nickname
      • Ch 240: Minato says: A thrust[[1]] all concentrated on one point, of course you have destructive power and speed, but because the speed of your movements are so fast, you cant see your opponants counter. Because of that, it is an incomplete jutsu.
        Loading editor
    • I don't have the time to research chapters and give a thorough reply at this point. My schedule is booked. I asked directly for mods and other's opinions, and i got it. Check my talk page and discuss it with them on the Chidori talk page when this one gets shut down or something if you still firmly believe it does and that there's enough evidence to support you. They believe Chidori does not boost speed. Take care yo.

        Loading editor
    • Funny how Rasengan is used in almost the same way and no one has this tunnel vision problem and was doesnt have such an intense thrust that its speed pushes the bodies limits.

      Even funnier how Raiton applied to just about anything speeds up its movement but Chidori supposedly doesnt accord8ng to you.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: The wiki might not be the "ultimate source of truth" but it's definitely more viable than three randoms I know nothing of. The Databook is written by Kishimoto. The writer's word definitely holds more value than your three's when it comes to Naruto. Finally, the Manga doesn't show anything of what you guy's suggests.

      You do know that you're just another 'random', right? While the DB is not free from errors. The manga and anime is on our side, and against your opinion. You can't stand on both sides, you either have to side with the manga, or against it.

      According to you guys, Chidori boosts you so fast, that you suffer from Tunnel Vision. Yet, if it's so fast why is there even a worry that it might miss? Why can mere fodder easily react to it? The answer, it just isn't fast. The mere fact that it's "easy" to react to, let me emphasize that... easy~ Lee, Wiki. Minato's whole reason for shutting it down is because it can be countered with ease. Not because it's fast. Not because of tunnel vision. It's because it can be countered and you're not going to be able to see it coming. If it moved remotely as fast as you claim it to be, it wouldn't be countered and tunnel vision wouldn't be an issue since the target would be dead before they could do anything. But it's not. And for other reasons stated above. 
      
      In the end, nothing flat out states it. You can say it's different or w.e but the truth is all techniques that boost speed are stated to. Period. There hasn't been a single case showing otherwise. 
      

      So, far I haven't seen Naruto's Kurama Chakra, The Gates, CM V2, and many other jutsus never stated to have been directly mentioned to.

      Now i'm going to be really busy with classes and work, so our debate on this is pretty much over unless this is still going on in a few weeks, which i doubt seeing as you guys probably aren't going to change the wiki anyways which is evidence enough for me.
      

      Everyone gets busy. And threads like this go longer than weeks. I wish you best of luck in your studies, but this does not mean you win anything here...

      LoneNinja wrote: I don't have the time to research chapters and give a thorough reply at this point. My schedule is booked. I asked directly for mods and other's opinions, and i got it. Check my talk page and discuss it with them on the Chidori talk page when this one gets shut down or something if you still firmly believe it does and that there's enough evidence to support you. They believe Chidori does not boost speed. Take care yo.

      Just like I said the Wiki isn't the ultimate source of truth, the mods, even with their experience aren't also the bearers of truth. They are just like you and I, just that they have more responsibility. So no, you don't get plus points for getting a yes from one of two of them or everyone of them. The Manga so far shows what the Chidori is, so far coming from you, Guy, Kakashi, Minato, Sasuke all are idiots. And why did you even start to talk at your talkpage, when you're the one who made this thread in the first place?

        Loading editor
    • Personally, I agree with @LoneNinja that Chidori doesn't boost one's speed. However, this was very well said and an important reminder to anyone who forgot:

      BlazeRelease wrote: Just like I said the Wiki isn't the ultimate source of truth, the mods, even with their experience aren't also the bearers of truth. They are just like you and I, just that they have more responsibility.

      Thanks for putting it so well @Blaze

        Loading editor
    • I hope you guys are aware that no matter the result of this thread, it won't affect the wiki.

        Loading editor
    • AsianReaper wrote: Thanks for putting it so well @Blaze

      Thanks, I was actually wondering if I was gonna get in trouble for saying that after I posted it.... Well glad that didn't come out as I overthought it to be...

      Seelentau wrote: I hope you guys are aware that no matter the result of this thread, it won't affect the wiki.

      As in? By that, do you mean that neither the opposing side nor the defending side statement being edited will affect the wiki to any extend because it does not leave a big enough point to the whole series.

      Or are you implying that discussing over this won't decide what will be written in the wiki, if so, you could have came way earlier.....

      ....

        Loading editor
    • @AsianReaper@Seelentau

      I'm actually surprised that you both hold the opinion that the raikiri does not boost speed. I don't understand how Gai's statement, minato's statement, and the feats shown aren't enough. As LegionZero nicely pointed out, the rasengan is used in essentially the same way. Minato himself runs in a straight line using his rasengan with no tunnel vision issues, and he is one of the fastest shunshin users in the series. It's clear that the running speed tunnel vision issue is not the result of "rock lee's speed". The issue is because of chidori/and raikiri pushing the limits of the human body to the point their senses can't keep with their speed. And as I said before, I don't intend to change the wiki because the wiki essentially says the same thing already, it's simply differences in interpretation is the issue apparently.

      @Loneninja I'm fully aware that many moderators are annoyed by the versus debates. But you have been debunked because there is always at least one moderator watching. I took a look at your talk page and I see moderators discussing threads they haven't commented in. The same moderator who commented on your talk page just commented on this very thread. So as I said, the difference in opinion is fine, but I will not accept that editing the wiki fallacy you were spewing.And mahiru isn't a fodder just because he got one shotted by minato. by your logic asuma and kurenai are both fodder shinobi because minato would slit their throat without too many issues the same way, even in a 2-1 battle.

        Loading editor
    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      AsianReaper wrote: Thanks for putting it so well @Blaze

      Thanks, I was actually wondering if I was gonna get in trouble for saying that after I posted it.... Well glad that didn't come out as I overthought it to be...

      Seelentau wrote: I hope you guys are aware that no matter the result of this thread, it won't affect the wiki.

      As in? By that, do you mean that neither the opposing side nor the defending side statement being edited will affect the wiki to any extend because it does not leave a big enough point to the whole series.

      Or are you implying that discussing over this won't decide what will be written in the wiki, if so, you could have came way earlier.....

      ....

      Discussions about article content are held on the respective talk page, not in the "Naruto Discussions" part of the forums.

        Loading editor
    • @Seelentau

      I don't fully understand the implications of what you just stated :"Discussions about article content are held on the respective talk page, not in the "Naruto Discussions" part of the forums." Are you saying that this thread and the discussion is illegal? Even if that's the case, could you point me to where the forum rules say that? And also, at that point I would just copy and paste most of what I said and put it there on the talk page.

        Loading editor
    • What's so hard to understand? If you would like to see changes made to an article, but aren't sure if they're correct, you go to the article's talk page and ask about it. It doesn't have anything to do with rules or whatever, it's just how wikis work.

      Plus, this is the "Naruto Discussions", you're simply discussing things related to Naruto. The forum has - except for the Consensus board - no relation to the wiki and its articles. You could discuss the exact same topic on NF and the results would be exactly the same, basically.

        Loading editor
    • Seelentau

      I already stated that I don't care to change the wiki in this case. I was simply asking you if discussing the content of an article from the wiki is illegal in the discussion forum, or if all discussions must take place on the talk page. This discussion started because of a versus debate in which whether or not sasuke gains speed from using chidori is a critical factor to consider, then transitioned to here. And why wouldn't that rule be in writing for people who are inexperienced with using the wiki? We literally have another user on here attempting to intimidate others from posting their opinion on the grounds they didn't discuss their interpretation of a topic in the manga on the talk page of a specific article. If I feel that wiki already supports my statements, then why would I change the wiki? If I am incorrect, I'm simply asking for clarification.

        Loading editor
    • It's not illegal to discuss it here, but this forum section is not the place to discuss the merits of making article changes (unless it is a sweeping change that can affect many articles at once, but such discussions go in Consensus Track). The forums really just exist for fans to discuss the series, separate from the wiki element, which presents information to the userbase.

      Seelentau is correct: to discuss an actual change to an article, you need to use the article's talkpage. If the change in question is targeting multiple pages, go to the Consensus Track board.

        Loading editor
    • Thank you for the information Supersajuuk.

        Loading editor
    • Why would you infer "discussing the content of an article from the wiki is illegal in the discussion forum" from "I hope you guys are aware that no matter the result of this thread, it won't affect the wiki."?

        Loading editor
    • @Seelentau

      Well that's the thing, I also inferred that if discussing it was illegal than a moderator would have closed this thread already. But I couldn't be sure, so that's why I asked. You could say that Loneninja irritated me to the point that I almost believed the claim that discussion in this thread or a versus thread wasn't allowed if a user has a different interpretation of what is stated on the wiki, and must successfully have the wiki edited in order to state their claims on these forums. But now I have confirmation from three moderators, so I am at peace. This site is for discussion and interpretations by the fans, while the wiki is meant to just be a source of information, and if a user wishes to have a permanent change to the wiki, it must be discussed on the talk page or consenus board. So now it's absolutely clear to me, and I won't fall for another user claiming otherwise.

        Loading editor
    • There's no problem discussing it here. Only thing to remember is that this is only a discussion. It's two sides trying to convince the other side something, but the outcome won't change the article if that's the goal. If changing the article is the goal, then the talkpage is the appropriate place to discuss it.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Intimidation? As in the act to intimidate someone? As in the act to frighten someone?

      I don't know what's so frightening about what I said, lol. You were the one who said the wiki implied Chidori boosts speed. I said no and told you to go prove it if the wiki believed that by going and changing the wiki if that was the truth. That there'd be no reason to imply, that it be flat out stated on the wiki. It isn't intimidation, it's just me calling you out on fallacy when the wiki clearly doesn't. It's one thing to discuss your opinion, but it's another when you say it's without a doubt a fact. There's nothing terrifying about telling someone if they have undeniable proof as they claim to have, to go take it up with the page because i'd rather trust a community of users over one person.

        Loading editor
    • @loneninja

      Yes it's a clear form of intimidation as it was basically fluff and not on topic, and was designed to make users feel that they should not post their opinion on something just because others elsewhere may disagree. As you can clearly see, I voiced my disagreement on the particular topic of the thread with both moderators in an earlier post just to let it be known. rebuttals should actually be directed towards the user's actual argument, not some side story about where they have chosen to disclose their opinion. that's when it's in the realm of strawman and an attempt to discredit a user directly rather than their argument. Your argument basically was, 'oh if you actually believe in that let's see if you still hold on to it if a source of authority on this site disagrees" Let's see how brave you are'. "Walk the walk, edit the wiki with it". The admins literally just stated that this discussion of opinions and interpretations are allowed for the topic, and the thread is moderated, meaning our discussions are being moderated. They clearly tell you that if the goal is to change the wiki, it must be taken to a talk page, but that discussion is still allowed hereon these forums. They also clearly tell you this site has no relation to the wiki outside of the Consensus page. That's great knowledge to have for future reference, and I never set out without some obligatory goal of changing the wiki for this topic, because I feel it's actually pretty clear on this particular subject. in my opinion a naruto fan who reads it and then checks the manga references could easily come to the conclusion that the chidori's primary benefit is the speed it grants to the user. "speed at which the jutsu is performed" can easily mean the speed granted by the jutsu, or the speed of the jutsu. night guy bended space with his running speed once he started running after being at rest. the speed of the night guy was both the level of speed at which the jutsu was performed and the speed of the 8 gates technique and also the speed it granted guy.

      You are the one who made it about the wiki in the first place, not me. I showed you the manga panels and where I was coming from with my claim. I gave you my arguments just like I would in any discussion. even if I feel like the wiki should have the explicit words speed boost at some point in time to prevent issues like the one that started this thread, clearly the people in charge disagree. Still doesn't mean their interpretation is right, still doesn't mean that one cannot interpret the wiki as reflecting the clear statements we got in the manga. So you have been debunked in regards to this fallacy you keep bringing up about editing the wiki. Furthermore, I even went on the rasenshuriken talk page or the other time you used this fallacy, and the only answer I got was that the manga was inconsistent when comes to physics. Still doesn't even change the fact that the wiki itself clearly states that the rasenshuriken is fast for crossing that crater in one second, and gives you the reference.

      Your opinion on the subject not changing isn't the problem for me, even if I feel you were proven wrong based on the current evidence, it's the strawman. And lol at the hive mind logic. Let me guess, if 100 people said the sky on a normal, clear, and sunnny day is red but one said its blue, does that suddenly mean the 100 other people are right?. I simply gave you the facts and then my intepretation on this public forum where many users can see it. numbers can be a useful indicator for coming to a consensus in many cases, but it isn't some absolute metric either, plus the sample size is often flawed. the naruto fandom as a whole is bigger than this one site, who is to say that many others out there who haven't the time or interest in the great big blue to join this site don't see it the same way I do. we literally had at least 3 other users on here comment with the same argument. hearts and minds are also known to change. that's the whole point of discussions/debates.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Are you trying to be a victim or something, lol? Asian clearly read my responses seeing as he gave some kudos and if I was trying to intimidate you, he would of let me know. I was clear and direct. The wiki did not imply Chidori boost speed like you clearly said. I clearly said it wouldn't be implied and it would of been stated directly if the community thought that. I clearly said I didn't feel up to arguing over something never stated and just go take it up with the page to prove what you say was a fact instead of days spent arguing over what i knew you were wrong yet again, on.

      There's nothing frightening about telling someone to prove what they say is a fact, to the community. There's nothing frightening about telling them to prove the wiki wrong when they believe it is. There's nothing frightening about telling someone that I'd abide by the wiki before I abide to someone else's word especially when I disagree. There's nothing frightening about telling someone to prove that is what the wiki meant. Nothing about anything i said was frightening to the very least. If you think any of that would frighten anyone, then oh well; sorry that scares you. Never once did I say you couldn't have an opinion. So chill. You're over-reading like you did with the wiki "Implying" that Chidori boosts speed.

        Loading editor
    • This discussion sure changed alot in a few hours.

      SuperSajuuk wrote: Seelentau is correct: to discuss an actual change to an article, you need to use the article's talkpage. If the change in question is targeting multiple pages, go to the Consensus Track board.

      So, what do you all think this supposed change would affect to how many pages? It seems it will only affect the Chidori page, and probably the Lightning Release page. So, I guess going on the article page on Chidori is the next thing to do.

      So, is this discussion here in this thread over? As in will it be continued to the article page(if that's how ir works) or a talk page, or is everything gonna be done here before that? I'm so confused by now.

        Loading editor
    • @Blaze

      So basically, if you want to change a page you go to that page. Click it's talk page and put in a topic for the change. Then if majority agrees you have validated proof to your claims, they allow the change. Normally you would just go to the page and change it if you believe it is without a doubt a fact. Then if it gets reverted, you would make a talk page to discuss it. But seeing as mods already voiced how they disagree with your point of view, you might want to skip the 1st step and go straight to the talk page.

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      Rofl, I am not intimidated by you. You simply irritated me with the rediculous strawman, to the point I needed to confirm with the 3 moderators how these discussions work and what the rules for discussion were. If I was intimidated I wouldn't be commenting all this time to you. I simply said you were using an intimidation tactic, and I said from the beginning that nonsense doesn't work on me. It's clear as day. You aren't being vulgar or over the top about it, but it's pretty clear honestly. You wouldn't bring up those arguments if you were actually genuinely focused on purely desconstructing my argument.

      NO ONE here on the opposition ever stated they desperately wanted to edit the wiki on the topic, literally. You are the only person who brought that nonsense up as part of your intimidation tactic. It's even in the title of your own thread. I simply came here because that's where people started commenting, and didn't want to continue derailing that other vs battle with this tangent. The admins clearly stated "Plus, this is the "Naruto Discussions", you're simply discussing things related to Naruto. The forum has - except for the Consensus board - no relation to the wiki and its articles. You could discuss the exact same topic on NF and the results would be exactly the same, basically." Nowhwere was it stated that I need to edit the wiki with my claims to discuss my opinion here . I simply stated my interpretation, backed up my claims with evidence from the manga. Everyone can literally see that. In the end, even If I'm wrong and chidori does not boost speed, it doesn't matter because no one has given a convincing argument for why that isn't the case. The wiki clearly tells you the speed is the greatest asset. I simply interpret that to mean it gives a speed boost when combining it with facts from the manga, it's that simple. I stated my opinion, you disagreed. That is whatever, but the ridiculous strawman about editing the wiki to believe in your own argument isn't ok. IT's already been debunked. I don't care what other people think on the matter or if their mind doesn't change, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and interpretation.

      @BlazeRelease, don't fall for it. The admins already stated that if you want to change the wiki, you must go for the talkpage. lucky for you in this case, You are simply in the same boat as me and interpret the wiki as saying what we already know from gai and minato's statement. As far as I have seen, you have expressed no desire to go changing the wiki to your liking, so you can disregard loneninja's claim. If you are actually interested though in editing the wiki, go to the chidori talkpage. But I doubt anyone will listen, because it already seems like the people in charge have a different opinion on the topic.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Again, there's nothing frightening about anything i said thus not a form of intimidation. If it was intimidation, the mod who gave a kudos on one of the statements, wouldn't be giving it kudos and instead would of been telling me to chill like he did earlier in that very thread. So maybe you should stop over-reading things. The tactic is very simple as to why it was used. You had no statement from the series that directly stated it boosted speed. You kept giving me your "evidence" but I could clearly see that it was only your interpretation and thus an opinion. The argument was Chidori boosting speed was not a fact and and was an opinion with me and Blaze. You jumped into that argument on his side thus proclaiming it to be a fact. So don't come here saying how you can't have an opinion. No you were arguing that it was a fact. So i merely gave you an option to prove it. Then....

      Combat: that very page you linked clearly states that chidori causes tunnel vision due to the movement speed boost.

      Lone: Made up

      Combat: It implicitly states that the user gains a boost.

      Lone: Where does it indirectly state that? Matter of fact, prove it. Go put it on Chidori's page and flat out directly state "It boosts the user's movement speed". Prove too me you buy the stuff you're selling. Or I'm just going to disregard it.

      That isn't intimidation. That's just me asking for proof or I'm disregarding what you say. If you find asking for proof is intimidation then yikes. How else you going to prove that's what the wiki meant? With your words? Obviously others agree with me and don't see that, so obviously that ain't going to work. Editing for your claim is the only way you can prove it since the argument was about the wiki. Nothing about that suggests you have to edit the wiki to argue in the vs debates or you couldn't have an opinion. I merely asked for proof because you guys were arguing that these opinions were "facts" and I wanted proof. It also wasn't just about the wiki, but sources from the Manga and Databook various times. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. But you best believe I'm going to want a source when you say it's fact. Don't mean you have to. You just ain't going to convince me. If that irritates you, then don't argue with me, point is simple. So again, quit over-reading. If I was doing anything intimidating, I'm sure the mod would of checked me.

        Loading editor
    • I have never seen a guy stating so many times over a kudus. @Combat. To be honest, the real reason I didn't go further to doing that is because I don't know how to. Can anyone explain how I should do it and what I shouldn't while at it?

      @Lone. Your arguement that Chidori was never outright stated to have a speed boost doesn't give you a win, it can be used against you like this, Chidori was never also said to not boost in speed. That's how much strong your arguement is, if you're going against words, you will be having that same arguement against you.

      While your arguement stands only on one factor alone. Guy didn't say "speed boost"

      Simply calling it a speed boost is a cheap and lame term for it. While having using the words "It's secret lies in it's speed and the impossible speed it is used" is more fashionable. The unusually faster pace the user runs with Chidori implies it's boost in speed.

      The need for Sharingan to match to it's intense speed says something.

      The principle of every Lightning workkng on speed, says something.

      The unusually brief mention/ detailed introduction of Lightning Armour, and the statement talking about how the user's brain/reaction abimity is increased according to it, shadowing a difference to an interestingly similar jutsu, says something.

      The Fact that Chidori doesn't require one to move faster than he or she needs, as it is used while standing, in midair, being chanelled through a swords and weopens and many others says something.

      So all these points outweight your weak and breakeble point.

        Loading editor
    • @Blaze

      Firstly, it wasn't just one point. I made many, and I guarantee you everyone is going to state the same things as I did. None of your points outweigh anything since no one other than you and two other believe in it. Your points make no logical sense. And your counter is just iffy at best. The whole fact that even the mods agree with my point of something focused on the arm wouldn't boost your physical speed, shows that. Chidori was never also said to not boost in speed

      Like that is just comical. My point is it wasn't stated or shown therefore it is a theory. Your argument is because it wasn't stated or shown makes it a fact? Yikes. That fails since a fact has to come directly from the series. Didn't come directly from the series, so the argument doesn't work.

      I already told you how. I doubt anyone except maybe Combat will repeat what i said. You go to Chidori's page. Seel also told you what to do. "you go to the article's talk page and ask about it." As for dos and don't. Here's the talk page rules of the wiki. [[1]]

        Loading editor
    • @Blazerelease Go to the talk chidori talkpage. it's on the same page where the article for the chidori is. You are still free to comment here on the forum with your thoughts though, but if you actually expect a change on the wiki, you have to go to the talk page or consensus board.

      @LoneNinja

      Lol no.

      I just told that user BlazeRelease to not fall for your nonsense about having to edit the wiki in order to post their interpretation on this forum. Editing the wiki is something you brought up. Please Get it through your head. The mods literally just stated that this forum is distinct from the wiki , how is that hard to understand? how is it hard to understand that what you were doing was an obvious intimidation tactic? it didn't cross the line with the moderators because you weren't being vulgar or over the top, but it's still a clear strawman. I wasn't frightened, I was irritated that you literally keep using that fallacy, when you are more than capable of arguing facts logically just like before. No one here needs validation from moderators or other symbols of authority on this site to justify their interpretation of the evidence. I presented my thoughts, used the manga, period. You claimed 'oh, well the wiki doesn't say that, so go on and edit it, walk the walk' and let's see if it actually goes through though', or something along those lines. News flash, even if I did edit it and it was removed, doesn't matter. This forum is distinct from the wiki, Seelentau made that clear. I don't have to edit the wiki successfully in order to state my opinion, nor is my argument automatically any less valid if some or all of the people in charge disagree, period. Those same moderators are looking at both the forum and the wiki anyway, so they can see what I'm saying anyways.

      I said it was a fact because somethings are close to the borderline between facts and perceived facts/interpretations. Sometimes I am wrong as well when it comes to the facts, I'm not omniscient nor do I claim to be. I was wrong about obito using izanagi to escape amaterasu, and I accepted the clear evidence that he used kamui. But there are also times just like when that user, kyfie I believe, who was claiming FTG isn't instantenous movement, when we all know it is. But that user misinterpreted a few panels/translation errors/databook errors. that user is wrong, like factually wrong, but is still entitled to their own interpretation and opinion. I didn't go telling that person, oh go edit the wiki. I helped debunk their arguments using panels from the manga, and when they didn't budge, I moved on. I didn't resort to some lame strawman. You disagree with my interpretation of chidori ? fine. But quit the strawman, smh. Smack talk is fine, but only when it's directed at the user's actual arguments, there is is a difference.

      You literally did it three times. I cited you evidence for amaterasu burning fast. I addressed the evidence for it burning slowly, and simply came to the conclusion that the jutsu is obviously inconsistent, but saw no reason to look purely at low end of feats over high end feats, but that was whatever, so I dropped the point. But then you go claiming this nonsense about cowardice and editing the wiki.

      I showed you on panel, logical evidence from the manga for why the rasenshuriken would be hypersonic levels of speed. offered you the evidence. Did you even think critically about the evidence? doubt it, because, what did you say? something like 'oh, go edit the wiki. Users like to spread fallacy. The fact you haven't edited the wiki with it means your claim is false' news flash, no it doesn't work like that. Forum is distinct from wiki. Wiki even says the jutsu is fast based on the panels i referenced, so you have been debunked. The only thing in question is the consistency of naruto physics, based on what I was told on the talk page. I had no intention to change the wiki, I'm on THESE forums, which is distinct. I cited you the evidence from the manga, period. The wiki may disagree or agree, and you can reference the wiki in your counter-arguments if you like. IF the evidence posted on the wiki makes sense, I'm more than capable of changing my stance, but if it doesn't, I'm not some sheep that can't think for themselves.

      Thirdly, you did it here, not only to me but also Blazerelease with this chidori topic. The bottom line is, the wiki clearly tells you the speed at which the jutsu is performed is the greatest asset. The manga tells you what you need to know. LegionZero further debunked the counterarguments by referencing how naruto used rasengan countless times in a straight line without any issues. Minato and Guy's statements still stand. The tunnel vision caused for chidori users still stands. the stabbing speed that pushes the limits of the human body still stands. where is this stabbing speed that pushes the limits of rasengan users? no where to be found. It's clear to me that the tunnel vision issues are exclusive to running with chidori. The wiki clearly tells the speed is the greatest asset. You can easily interpret that statement to mean it provides a speed boost, which is why I argued the wiki says so. Different choice of words, simple. It's an implicit as opposed to a direct and clear statement, which leaves open uncertainty, but uncertainty doesn't suddenly mean you can't put 2 and 2 together and use wisdom to determine what the statement is really saying. The statement doesn't even debunk our argument, which is another reason why this whole wiki thing is another fallacy.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      I ain't going to argue over this, to be more precise I don't need to. If it was intimidation, I'd be warned since intimidation is specifically stated to be a clear violation on the guidelines under the chat policy. I wouldn't be given a kudos from a mod when i used the tactic if it was against the rules, since intimidation is against the rules and would result in me being warned due to it being my first offense. But seeing as I haven't even had a warning yet at all about anything at all, I think I'm perfectly fine with that argument when the argument is about the wiki which all three times it was. You stated the wiki was wrong, implied something, and argued to change it. Therefore, it was perfectly okay to use that argument each time.

        Loading editor
    • @Lone. No, you didn't. You made only one weak point and that was the one I mentioned. If you had any other, you would have mentioned them again. It shows how you're grasping on straws.

      No one other than two people believe in me? Sigh, as I've stated, numbers don't make facts as facts, evidences and solid reasons make it. Your only other point was the fact that two others or so believe in that. And like you, they haven't come to counter any of the statements we're presented over it.

      I don't ever think Chidori focused on the arm as whole, a large amount of chakra is focused on the arm, while the user runs at an impossible speed. That came from the introduction of Chidori itself.

      Whats comical is that Chidori is said to have an 'impossible speed' while using it from the beginning itself. Your arguement works on the basis of the choice of words used, not the statements said, and the feats shown. And no, buddy. If you think that we three are the only ones on this opinion, then I would like to tell you that there may be way more people arguing on this side. For now, there aren't many active users these days, and there aren't many interested in this debate. And there may be many who aren't even knowing about this debate. By the way, didn't you say you were going to be busy with classes and stuff?

      Thank you for the tip though, and you too @Combat. Um... Do you guys know about how to use sign offs and how to make the titles with the things and such... I think I messed up....

        Loading editor
    • @Blaze

      "Red Flags that show it doesn't boost speed: The no speed change against Gaara. The derivations not boosting speed. The Lightning not stimulating the nervous system and being focused on the arm thus can't boost speed since that's the only way Lightning boosts speed as far as I am aware of. Body Flicker's superiority. Body Flicker being a skill Kakashi knows. Chidori being used on objects. The big one: Never being stated when ALL speed enhancements are stated in the Manga, Databook, or Wiki to boost one's speed, Chidori does not on a single one." Looks like multiple points too me. I'd appreciate it if you stop with the false statements.

      As for the talk page, I fixed it for you. Next time there's an option to add a topic on the top right side before you start your post, located on the talk page. You click that. Then it takes you to the posting format. Make sure you add the headline which is located on the right top corner inside the box that is labeled "add the section headline". Make sure when replying you utilize :'s. If your message is the third, you do two ::. If you're the fourth, do :::. So on and so fourth until it resets after so many replies. If you ever get confused as to how many you should use, look at the post above you and add one more than they have. For example Omni has 1 on that talk page. So if you were the one to post after him, you would do two. You should always have more than the person above you and should only have 1 more. It's used at the beginning of the statement and indents it to make it clear it's separate from the post above you so there's no confusion.

      Also when signing your name, all you do is type four ~, like this ~ ~ ~ ~ (No spaces between each one or it won't work which is why it doesn't work here) and it automatically signs it for you. You don't have to type anything. Not your name, date, or any of that. By typing 4 ~'s (no spaces between them), it'll do it all for you. Make sure you use it at the end of each post. With no spaces between the ~'s, it'll look like this after you click enter, LoneNinja (talk) 20:33, October 15, 2018 (UTC).

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      ROFL, I got a kudos on one of my posts too from Seelentau, so what is your kudos supposed to prove exactly ? You literally didn't understand a sentence of my post. the proof is that you still continue to bring up this nonsense about the wiki. Newsflash, it's irrelevant. I argued my points using the manga on this forum. You are the only user in this thread who has requested that your opponents edit the wiki. I don't need to argue any further either, because your tactic literally doesn't work. The forum is distinct from the wiki, period. You can believe what you want, the moderators made it clear already. you've been debunked.

      @BlazeRelease, Loneninja has given the instructions in their post.

        Loading editor
      • Chapter 240, Kakashi compares Chidori to Minato's nickname, stating that it can hit a large number of enemies "in an instant". Kakashi didnt say he was like the Minato's nickname or that he could could hit them in an instant.
      • again in 240 Minato said that the thrust of Chidori gives Kakashi speed and power, but the speed made him unable to see an enemy counter.
      • In chapter 114 Gai says Chidori is known for its stabbing speed that pushes the limit of the human body. Chidori. Not the user.

      Chidori doesnt give a speed boost the way Shunshin and Raiton Armor does. But it seems to push/pull the user because it is so fast this is why the speed of Chidori is constantly referred to not the speed of the user while using Chidori. If the speed behind the attack was the user and not Chidori then the use would simply slow down or not move in a straight line

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      I'm not going to argue over this. No one tried to intimidate you. If they did, they'd get a warning.

      "Don't harass/intimidate users." [[[1]]

      The point of a mod giving me kudos is easy to grasp. He gave a message about changing the wiki kudos. Which means he didn't see anything i said as intimidating. He also did not warn me about intimidation at all, neither did any other mod. So good day, ain't going to reply to you about the subject since I'm clearly right. What you claim I did is clearly against the rules and the mods clearly seen what I and you said and I clearly wasn't given a warning cause asking for proof is clearly not intimidation.

      @Legion

      I don't think anyone opposing you is going to discuss the topic anymore in this thread. Blaze has went to the Talk Page directly and is presenting your guy's evidence to the community directly. What comes about that, is enough for me to see which side is right or wrong. You can support him or you can chill, but I doubt anyone wants to discuss it here. But either way this topic is done since the actual debate is in progress.

        Loading editor
    • ROFL you still don't get it. The proof is right there in your post.


      Loneninja:"I don't think anyone opposing you is going to discuss the topic anymore in this thread. Blaze has went to the Talk Page directly and is presenting your guy's evidence to the community directly. What comes about that, is enough for me to see which side is right or wrong. You can support him or you can chill, but I doubt anyone wants to discuss it here. But either way this topic is done since the actual debate is in progress."

      You really don't get it at all. Whether or not the "community" disagrees or agrees to the change the wiki or not is irrelevant. Your hive-mind, numbers, strawman doesn't work. And you're lying now too. I gave you the proof, or at least my justification/interpretation, multiple times. I never said asking for proof is intimidation, so you can drop that, that never came out of my keyboard. You requested this editing the wiki-strawman, that is a big difference than simply asking for proof. Newsflash, it doesn't work. Already debunked. They told you that the wiki is distinct from the forum for the purposes of this discussion. Whether or not the wiki agrees or not is irrelevant, the only thing I care about is the evidence from the manga. If someone presents a credible argument that debunks my statement, I'll accept it, whether it's posted on the wiki or on the forum.

      The clear bottomline is that even if the moderators on the talkpage disagree, that doesn't suddenly or automatically make them right or nor does it make you right. I already explained why you didn't get a warning, so I'll disregard that statement of yours. The bottomline is you think that just because a number of people in authority who are in charge of filtering the wiki for accuracy, disagree suddenly debunks our argument. That is not how it works. If the wiki doesn't undergo any clarification on the wiki, our points still stand, until they have actually been properly debunked, and they will still be a part of the discussions we have on the FORUM, which is distinct from the wiki, which is apparently hard for you to understand.

      SuperSajuuk stated :"The forums really just exist for fans to discuss the series, separate from the wiki element, which presents information to the userbase."

      You literally think that a person's argument is diminished simply because symbols of authority disagree, and that they aren't "Walking the walk" if they haven't proven it to them on a talk page, rofl.


      Even If I follow along with your nonsense, I have taken a look at that talkpage, and so far there is a grand-total of 3 moderators on there from what I have currently seen, and the two of them actively arguing haven't addressed the claims in any satisfactory manner yet as far as I am concerned.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      If that helps you sleep at night. Community > you, in my opinion. So far they addressed your claims to my satisfactory and that is all that matters too me. As I said, I have nothing to argue about, I said already everything needed to be said. If you want to debate on Chidori, find someone else.

        Loading editor
    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      @Lone. Your arguement that Chidori was never outright stated to have a speed boost doesn't give you a win, it can be used against you like this, Chidori was never also said to not boost in speed. That's how much strong your arguement is, if you're going against words, you will be having that same arguement against you.

      Sigh.

      This type of "rebuttal" is what causes a lot of headache, so I thought I would address it. @Blaze, for something to be a fact, it needs to be proven with feats. Proving with negatives doesn't exist here. So no, you can't say because it was never stated, it can be so. Work off feats, not opinions.

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      Lol, no they didn't. And according to you , a handful of moderators disagreeing is an entire "community". lmao, what a joke. I accept your concession. I bet if they told you flowers can grow in a dark room with no sunlight and water you would agree with them too. you have yet to actually debunk the claim, and instead resorted to strawman arguments, so again, I accept your concession.

      Oh, and suddenly I am the only person in the world who has the point of view being argued? So I guess BlazeRelease, LegionZero, Ruthless don't exist according to you? Your sample size analysis is laughable.

      @Ninja of War To be fair, BlazeRelease only said that because users here are claiming things like rock lee speed is required for chidori, and that wasn't stated either. Blazerelease has used feats multiple times, they only used that statement to debunk LoneNinja's strawman argument, which ironically was using the proving with negatives tactic. When feats were actually shown, they failed to debunk the argument and then claimed things like failure to edit the wiki sucessfully means the argument isn't valid. So there is more context to that post you called Blazerelease out on.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Your bias point of view of me is pretty clear. Since I proven you wrong multiple times you have been defensive and clearly confrontational. I suggest you get over it.

      Case point 1) "addressed your claims to my satisfactory"

      You: Lol, no they didn't.

      Like lol, who are you to say what satisfies me?

      Case point 2) You: handful of moderators disagreeing is an entire "community". lmao, what a joke.

      No one but you is saying that. Why are you putting words in my mouth? All I said was the results that determine the debate will show me who was right or wrong.

      Case point 3) You: I bet if they told you flowers can grow in a dark room with no sunlight and water you would agree with them too.

      Assumptions about me when you obviously don't know a thing about me cause if you did you would know I've argued with decisions the wiki has made before. So obviously this is stated out of pure dislike.

      You have tendency to over-read and make things up. It's no wonder why it's hard for me to believe anything you have to say. Get over it. Accept your own concession cause I didn't concede anything. I'm just tired of talking to someone who can't contain their emotions over a debate. Nor do I want to argue with other's twisted views that aren't stated or shown and actually have 0 evidence to support their claims. If your proof was as undeniable as you seem to think, there wouldn't be a debate with people who spend a decent amount of their free time reading the series, watching the anime, playing the games, watching the interviews, translating the series, etc. If what Minato said was so clear, none of these credible people would question it. But a lot of credible people do for a reason. Cause what you see is only an interpretation and not a fact.

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      Containing emotions? that's rich coming from you.

      when I have been proven wrong, I admitted it, period. You are the one that started this nonsense about cowardice, and walking the walk. You are the one that became immature and didn't look at the evidence I presented, and used stramwan arguments, even making up rules about successfully editing the wiki, convincing moderators of a certain claim, to post on the forum with a valid argument. Sorry, but the mods debunked it. the moderators are watching the thread, and you even tried to trick me regarding that multiple times, even as moderators were watching the thread lol. I don't care if some moderators aren't interested in the threads, at least one is always moderating or checking in, period. They saw what I was saying, and when they voiced disagreement, I looked into their claims. when it was clear I was proven wrong, I yielded, because I learned something new, but I only yield if the evidence is clear and makes sense, because I'm not a sheep. Your point 3 just points out the irony of all this.

      You literally have claimed on more than one occasion that if moderators disagree with something then it's false, that if I haven't edited the wiki, then it's false. putting down other users when they were literally just justifying their opinion on the forum element using evidence directly from the manga, and putting your own requirements on them. If you actually had a good counter-argument, then you wouldn't be saying such things. how do I venture that? because you have proven me wrong in at least two other threads using logic and reasoning, none of this srawman. And then when it's convenient for your argument, you then cite how you are capable of voicing your opinion against the symbols of authority, lol.

      And no, that's just your flawed sample size and flawed logic in general again. Large groups of people in different communities are wrong about things that aren't supposed to be debatable all the time. as an extreme example, Think about how many people still believe the earth is flat in 2018, enough said. Being an expert in the field doesn't mean you are always right about every detail.

        Loading editor
    • 1) I have yet to let my emotions get in my way. It's kind of hard when I don't really care, lol. This is just a debate with three randoms who twist statements, and a mod (which says a lot) even implied your theory is "stupid". What do I have to get emotional about?

      2) Debunked what? Debunked what you twisted and said what I stated even though i never stated that? Sure. They debunked the words you made up, good job. It's hard to even take you seriously when you say debunked since you used that when I stated majority of Mods disliked vs debates and you tried to say 1 mod debunked that. So when you say debunked, i take it very lightly cause you obviously have no clue what debunked is or what it takes to debunk something.

      3) When have I stated that? I'm pretty sure I said community several times. Another twisted statement?

      4) Flawed logic that everyone credible goes by.

        Loading editor
    • Um... At the end of the day, can we all just try to remain civil?

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      I could care less if a handful of moderators on one online naruto community thought myself and my argument was stupid, because their argument doesn't agree with the manga, period. When a counter-argument that actually makes sense with the rest of the manga is presented, I'll reconsider. and no, only you go by that terrible logic when it's convenient for you. And lol, that same moderator also claimed the point of view other users in the ridoku sage mode thread was stupid, yet one other moderator actually agreed with the claims in that thread. I'm honestly sick of your strawman logic. Clearly, even moderators can disagree with each other.

      And Idk what to tell you, reread my posts, you clearly didn't understand anything I said based on your points 2-4, and even completely missed the context. I have repeated them enough times at this point. I even cited the moderator quotes multiple times too.

        Loading editor
    • Lol, your argument don't make sense though. "Chakra concentrated in your arm boosts movement speed". "Even though all the derivations are attack based, Chidori is speed based even though all derivations of a technique is based off the original". Like what? You're sitting here saying not just mine, but everyone who disagrees with you, as logic that don't make sense when the only logic we all see not making sense is your guys. Chakra concentrated in the arm does not boost speed. If Chidori was speed based then all it's derivations would be speed based since all derivations are always based off the original. All your arguments are just twisted statements and I'm not the only one who sees it. You can call it strawman logic all you want, but at the end of the day, this is the wiki. If you have a problem with it's logic then go somewhere else. If you don't want to, then deal with it.

      No you missed the context. 2-4 show that. You keep putting words in my mouth. You keep saying debunked when nothing has been debunked except the words you put in my mouth. You twist statements. That's all you can do to win a debate. Too bad no one has taken you seriously on this Chidori claim except me. But even I'm at the point where I'm just like "Lol why argue with someone who clearly just wants to argue and not have an actual debate and doesn't have sufficient evidence". Like your whole counter argument is basically "Plot, kishimoto logic" like lmao.

      P.s. I don't know why you brought the point about Mods disagreeing with each other. They clearly don't disagree with your claim being false.

        Loading editor
    • @Lone

      To my understanding, it was always that the chidori requires speed to be effective. That being, more speed == more power for chidori, also trading speed for the ability to counter-attack. Now, I don't agree with @Combat's interpretation that the chidori boosts speed, since it is described only to be concentrated lightning chakra focused in the users hand.

      It is not concentrated in the users feet or enhancing nerve transmissions as lighting armor is. Coupled with the fact that the chidori is a piercing attack and needs a straight line of attack, I don't see the alleged speed boost. It's clear to me that the user needs significant speed to perform it as a prerequisite.

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War I'll try this again:

      Except all the translations clearly show Minato and kakashi attributing the speed to the technique itself. And your point about speed = more power for chidori is debunked because every technique benefits from extra momentum. more momentum means more speed and force, that is basic physics. Ohnoki literally lightened Ei so he could have more speed to blitz edo Madara, and then increased his weight at the last second for the absolute maximum power so they could bust susano'o. it was clearly stated by Gai that the TECHNIQUE pushes the limits of the human body, or alternatively in another translation," it's secret lies in the impossible speed of it's stroke". The context is always the technique when the user is running, not just the user. Not just the arm. You are literally going against the manga. I see the logic of your interpretation but it's been debunked. nothing says the user has to be already "fast" as prerequisite. Why? The argument of you and others has three problematic implications:

      1:Ninjas faster than part one weightless rock lee always run at a slower speed than their max speed to avoid tunnel vision. Nothing substantiates the claim, and it's also illogical. Why would ninjas intentionally run slower and give their opponents more time to react to their speed blitzes?

      2) That The rasengan doesn't benefit from the speed of the user, as they clearly are seen running in a straight line with the technique much like chidori, and yet there isn't any tunnel vision issues. The faster naruto runs with rasengan, the more force that will be imparted when he tags his opponent with it. The speed at which rasengan is applied is a good benefit to have, but it isn't absolutely necessary to run, the jutsu itself has enough destructive power, as seen when naruto was STANDING still and nearly killed kabuto with it. Do you think that early shippuden naruto is slower than part one weightless rock lee? Do you seriously think that Minato himself is slower than weightless rock lee, yet we have seen minato running in a straight line with his rasengan more than once without any tunnel vision, and we know for a fact that rasengan does not boost the user's speed. Minato's running speed and kunai throwing speed is faster than kakashi, even when kakashi is using chidori. The rasengan and chidori are used in almost identical ways by characters faster than rock lee, and yet only chidori has the speed references. That is enough proof.

      3) That rock lee and might guy are idiots, because clearly they both have run at their top speed in a straight line without any noted tunnel vision issues. Where was rock lee's tunnel vision when he entered the 5th gate and blitzed the living hell out of gaara in a straight line, and then kicked him into the air? But yet with the interpretations used by the opposition, rock lee is now claiming that simply running in a straight line causes tunnel vision? where is the logic in that? IT's obvious that the reason chidori causes tunnel vision is because it doesn't boost the user's reflexes/visual perception, which is why the SHARINGAN, the pinnacle of reflex boost and perception, fixes the issue. All other techniques that have boosted speed to ridiculous levels, like bijuu chakra cloaks, the eight gates, or raiton armor have been explicitly stated or implied to boost all of the user's physical traits, including their reflexes. We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle.

      In the next section, we have the quotes that opposition has consistently failed to address properly. Translation 1 from minato chapter 240: "And one more thing kakashi, about that new jutsu' of yours, you shouldn't use it anymore. From what I saw, it's a strike with a single focus. 'It certainly has speed and power, but it makes you move too fast to ascertain the opponent's counterattack. IT is still "imperfect"

      Translation two:

      "A thrust all concentrated in one point, of course you have the destructive power and speed, but because of the speed of your movements are so fast, you can't see the opponent's counter. Because of that, it is an incomplete jutsu"

      This interpretation has more ambiguity, but is essentially identical to the first. The jutsu is the context of minato attributing speed and power to kakashi. By the logic of the opposition, minato is talking about kakashi's physical strength, which doesn't make sense. Minato also is more than aware of kakashi's normal running speed. After all the time they have been together, why would kakashi running in a straight line with his best speed suddenly be an issue? It's obvious that with chidori, kakashi's speed increased. Which is why minato banned the technique. You're argument that chidori needs the user's speed to be at a certain level as a prereq is further debunked, because we have seen chidori and raikiri being used by sasuke and kakashi when they were standing still, and they have even used raikiri/chidori to add raiton chakra to kunai and other weapons. so it's been debunked. IT's obvious that once they start running with it, the speed boost becomes the issue if their sharingan isn't active to add the necessary reflex boost, which is why its too dangerous to use in battle for sharinganless kakashi. it has absolutely nothing to do with his normal running speed.

      Then there is kakashi's statement from chapter 240:

      " With this jutsu, I can finish them in an instant. It's named after your alias"

      Like, I genuinely don't understand how this isn't clear. why is speed attributed to the jutsu MULTIPLE times if the speed is supposedly just the user's regular running speed? There is no reason to claim that the speed is the greatest asset of chidori doesn't offer a speed boost. By your logic, raikiri is practically useless, because kakashi can simply use his "rock lee speed" and a katana and run at this "impossible speed" in a straight line and slice his opponent in half, without having to use such a chakra taxing technique like chidori. Mahiru has average durability, a katana to the neck would decapitate him. Raikiri is a raiton technique and all raiton techniques are known for their penetrative power/cutting power. the lightning chakra itself provides that, nothing says you need to run for the jutsu to cut through objects effectively, the speed boost is the greatest asset because speed gives your opponent less time to react.

      The claims that other raiton techniques don't boost speed is irrelevant, because chidori was explicitly stated and shown to boost speed. Nothing says chidori variants don't boost the speed of the user, and half the time we have seen that, guess what, the user IS STANDING STILL. Almost Every time I have seen kakashi or sasuke apply shape control, whether sasuke forms a straight line, or kakashi forming a raikiri dog against pain, they were standing in a single position. Even the raikage can stand still with his raiton armor, so it's been debunked. the speed boost comes into play once they start running, like any speed boosting technique. Kakashi's purple lightning isn't stated to be a variation of raikiri either, so it's something completely different.

      And finally, the chakra to the arm argument. See the thing most people miss is that when the chidori/raikri is first formed, you can clearly see there is a circle of chakra at the user's feet, and while it dissappears, that could easily be what's contributing to the speed. It doesn't have to be constantly visible on panel in order for it to have boosted the user's speed. @LoneNinja No I don't have to go anywhere else. You literally missed the context of my posts, and I see you haven't even bothered to go back and read, or otherwise didn't have the time. So I could care less about most of what you just said. This forum allows for users to have their own interpretations of the wiki/manga, so the chidori boosts speed until someone actually proves me wrong with something other than "the mods disagree". Your entire argument is based on people reacting to raikiri, which makes no sense because all the people who reacted to it were jounin level, the same level as part one kakashi. It literally took mahiru like 17 tries to finally get the timing down to react to kakashi's chidori. haku's speed with the mirror technique has been referenced to be extremely fast in both the manga and databook, so it's not surprising she intercepted kakashi. My point about the moderators is simple. That same moderator who thinks my argument is stupid also thought another one of my arguments was stupid, yet another MODERATOR agreed with the claims. Even if they both disagree with me on this topic, simply being a moderator doesn't debunk my claim, what debunks my claim is evidence from the manga properly presented and explained. I have yet to see any coherent argument from the opposition, and every time difficult points are raised, the argument gets avoided.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Note: Please stop with saying my logic or points have been "debunked". I clearly said my points are to my understanding. This isn't a contest, there is no prize for trying to "win" this argument.

      Also, you said "..so the chidori boosts speed until someone actually proves me wrong..." No pal, none of the chapters and statements you presented directly state that the chidori boosts speed. Speed is thrown around yes, but where is the causation? Where is the mechanism mentioned?

      And no, you can't simply compare speed boost ability to other raiton techniques now. Why? Because techniques like lightning armor have a mechanism for a speed boost, enhanced nerve transmission.

      For clarity, my argument that more speed == more power for the chidori. Is based on the penetration power of the chidori. Chidori is a piercing attack, meaning it's main ability is to pierce through defenses. With more speed, then the chidori has greater penetrating power. Why do I say this? Look at Sasuke vs Gaara in part 1. Sasuke had to use all the available space inside the arena to build up enough speed to pierce through gaara's sand. The straight-line attack only also supports this.

      Which is not the same as a rasengan. A rasengan is a grinding attack, not a piercing attack. Rasengan's main ability is not to pierce through defenses.

      You need to come up with a mechanism for the speed boost for your argument, with evidence that supports it. It's not good enough to say otherwise, while there is evidence that contradicts it.

      So can we just have an honest conversation?

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War

      You said this : "And no, you can't simply compare speed boost ability to other raiton techniques now. Why? Because techniques like lightning armor have a mechanism for a speed boost, enhanced nerve transmission."

      The fact you said this shows you obviously did not understand what I said. I suggest you reread this: iT's obvious that the reason chidori causes tunnel vision is because it doesn't boost the user's reflexes/visual perception, which is why the SHARINGAN, the pinnacle of reflex boost and perception, fixes the issue. All other techniques that have boosted speed to ridiculous levels, like bijuu chakra cloaks, the eight gates, or raiton armor have been explicitly stated or implied to boost all of the user's physical traits, including their reflexes. We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle.

      And the sasuke point is debunked because that is the only time we ever see that happening, and its obvious because gaara had a sturdy defense. Kakashi never ran far away from mahiru or zabuza or Deva Pain to build up speed for penetrative power, the raiton chakra was enough to cut those foes. Not to mention, at a certain point every runner has a maximum velocity, nothing suggests that he needed ALL the space to reach his top speed. Still doesn't change the fact that those two quotes directly show there is a speed boost, because it causes tunnel vision. You also didn't address any of my other critical points, it doesn't matter if rasengan is a grinding attack, more momentum = more force. It's basic physics. try throwing a baseball at 5 miles per hour versus one and 40 miles per hour and see which one hits harder.

      There isn't any prize, nor am I trying to win one. But other users make it seem like winning over moderators suddenly changes my argument.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Ninja of War


      We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle.

      And the sasuke point is debunked because that is the only time we ever see that happening, and its obvious because gaara had a sturdy defense. Kakashi never ran far away from mahiru or zabuza to build up speed for penetrative power, the raiton chakra was enough to cut those foes. Still doesn't change the fact that those two quotes directly show there is a speed boost, because it causes tunnel vision. You also didn't address any of my other critical points, it doesn't matter if rasengan is a grinding attack, more momentum = more force. It's basic physics. try throwing a baseball at 5 miles per hour versus one and 40 miles per hour and see which one hits harder.

      There isn't any prize, nor am I trying to win one. But other users make it seem like winning over moderators suddenly changes my argument.

      Look, I'm really done with points that hinge on tangents and exaggerations. 8th gate Guy had attacks that weren't in a straight line. So enough said there. Sasuke point is debunked because it only happened one time??? What??? Idk man, you call that a counter? Of course the amount of penetrative power you need depends on what you are trying to pierce.

      Great sand defense needs more penetrative power over a body.

      Also, since you are continuing this line of rebuttal, slinging "debunked" after you make a point, it made me lose interest in trying to converse with you. So, I'll address your "critical points" in short.

      1) I don't know what point you are trying to make, as I never said anything like that.

      2) Addressed already, rasengan does not rely on penetrative power.

      3) Because the eight gates boosts speed? Because Lee and Guy's attacks are not penetrative ones?

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War

      My point number 1 is critical, all I'm saying is that the sharingan provides the reflex boost/perception boost so that the user of chidori doesn't suffer from tunnel vision due to the speed boost. Speed boosts cause tunnel vision unless they are accompanied by techniques that boost the nervous system. Most techniques do that, but kakashi screwed up in his technique design, which is why Minato told him to throw it out the window, it was incomplete.

      Look, I'll try to keep my statements more clean, because at least you aren't using strawman arguments.

      What does guy having attacks that aren't in a straight line have to do with my point exactly? kakashi has also been seen changing his direction while running with it. The issue is seeing the counter attack, nothing about the direction change.

      There is a difference between speed and reflexes. The 8 gates boost speed and power yet there is no tunnel vision, which means the gates has a corresponding adaption for the user's nervous system.

      So let me get this straight, kakashi literally got stabbed by pain's rod at point blank range and yet he immediately used raikiri with intent to kill, and are you implying that the raikiri cannot cut through pain without a running start? The technique is made of raition chakra, meaning it already has penetrative and cutting abilities, and raiton is often compared to fuuton in these qualities. Your argument seems to imply that speed is needed for raikiri to achieve something that it's already good at, cutting through things. I also already stated that more momentum =more force, and sasuke needed more force in general to get through a hard defense, but that doesn't suddenly mean that the technique doesn't give a speed boost. As I said, kakashi and sasuke have used the technique in other contexts and yet there is still dangerous tunnel vision associated with the technique when they start running. Kakashi clearly has stated his technique's speed can finish his opponents in an instant, he literally did so to 17 out of 18 targets.he wasn't using the speed for penetrative power, the jutsu already had that, he was using the speed to minimize his enemi'es reaction time.

      My point about rasengan still stands. We see naruto and minato running in a straight line with the jutsu, and more speed = more momentum when they finally hit their opponent. You are missing the point. Minato and naruto are seen running at their TOP speed when using rasengan and yet they have suffered no tunnel vision. I have no reason to believe that they weren't running at their maximum velocity. when rasengan collides with the target, there is still concussive force before the technique begins grinding, and concussive force alone can kill people. running at 5 mph with a dense sphere in your hand and hitting an object will have less concussive force than running at 30 mph.

      Your argument literally implies that rock lee's running speed causes tunnel vision, which I have already shown to be not true. the sasuke you referenced was shown and stated to have the same speed as weightless rock lee. rock lee never suffered tunnel vision, yet when he witnessed sasuke's chidori he clearly stated that he wouldn't use the speed "like that" because the technique does not stimulate his nervous system. The proof is that rock lee in the 5th gate is faster than sasuke wielding chidori, and yet rock lee doesn't experience tunnel vision despite lacking a sharingan, and that was when rock lee ran in a straight line.

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War.

      That's what I've been saying. This guy likes to takes something you said, and twist it to something you didn't even say. Either he is reading too much into what we say trying to find another meaning or he just spouts things to spout em.

      Then he makes more stuff up that never was stated like Eight Gates boosting perception. He goes too far into things and if he had his way, we'd change a lot of techniques and give them abilities they never had. Even when everyone disagrees except two other people with one even saying perception isn't boosted for Eight Gates, he just says it's strawman logic and that everyone but him is wrong. Even when everyone sees how horrid his logic is, all he keeps saying is how we don't make sense when Chakra concentrated in the arm boosting leg speed makes 0 sense. His answer to that is "Kishimoto logic", lol. LIke we can use that to every argument he has too. Smh.

      Obviously the Eighth Gate didn't show case Tunnel Vision simply because a) he can handle that speed or b) it didn't matter since he was moving so fast, no one was going to counter attack anyways. Tunnel vision is apparent for Chidori BECAUSE people can react to it with ease. Not many can react to Eight Gates and Eight Gate user's rarely attack in straight line where Tunnel Vision is stated to be apparent, and even when they do there's no counter attack waiting for them cause they're that fast.

      I'm just going to use his own argument against him. I accept your concession on Chidori's variants, Sasuke's standstill Chidori, the horrid logic of chakra concentrated in the arm boosts your leg's speed, and how your argument makes no sense.

        Loading editor
    • Chidori is a lightning jab. Raikiri is a faster one. The show deals quite a lot with the concept of exertion, this is a very draining technique because Kakashi is exerting 100% of his speed. Which in turn grants him tunnel vision (he's running at his body's maximum speed which is faster than his own perception) causing Minato to tell him to abandon the technique. The jutsu's power is directly related to the users speed. Simply covering your hand in lightning is not a jutsu, kid Kakashi could only generate enough power to make chidori an A-rank jutsu by increasing his momentum strengthening his lightnig jab (increased momentum = increased destruction, this is what makes Raikiri S-rank as opposed to chidori's A) .

      ... if chidori increases Sasuke's speed how fast is everyone who has grabbed his wrist while using it, Itachi deflected it into a wall then broke Sasuke's hand, Kakashi redirected Natuto and Sasuke's attacks into water towers

      That being said the cutting nature of chidori would practically erase wind resistance (drag) so they would apear to move faster as their speed would no longer be dampened running into air molecules.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote:

      Obviously the Eighth Gate didn't show case Tunnel Vision simply because a) he can handle that speed

      And Chidori/Raikiri users cant handle Chidori/Raikiri's speed. Which is why they get tunnel vision without the Sharingan.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Obviously the Eighth Gate didn't show case Tunnel Vision simply because a) he can handle that speed

      Or b) the gate of pain increases chakra flow to the spinal cord enhancing his perception by flooding his nervous system with chakra along the lines of Lightning Release Chakra Mode, Lightning Strike Armour, Lightning Release: Overdrive, etc minus lightning nature obviously

        Loading editor
    • If chidori/raikiri has an effect like tunnel vision what would be the cause if not a speed boost?

        Loading editor
    • Because the technique requires the user to move at top speeds for its best effect. Running at top speeds, especially when capable of breaking the sound barrier, would lead to tunnel vision.

        Loading editor
    • Low tier chuunins break the sound barrier easily.

        Loading editor
    • @Aboo

      Running fast. Lol.

      If Chidori boosted speed, why is it stated to only be concentrated in the arm?

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote: Because the technique requires the user to move at top speeds for its best effect. Running at top speeds, especially when capable of breaking the sound barrier, would lead to tunnel vision.

      Rasengan doesnt have this issue and Naruto charges in a straightline dash with it.

      The user could also simply not run so fast when they use it so there is some property to it that makes it difficult for the user to run slower once it picks up momentum

      LoneNinja wrote: @Aboo

      Running fast. Lol.

      If Chidori boosted speed, why is it stated to only be concentrated in the arm?

      Why do you associate speed boost with chakra in the the legs. Jugo literally creates chakra jet thrusters to move faster and this doesnt concentrate chakra in his feet.

        Loading editor
    • I associate it due to the fact that Chidori isn't a jet thruster and we're talking about movement speed. How does concentrating Chakra in your arm, make your legs move faster? Last I checked, Chidori doesn't get shot out from behind the user like jet thruster, so that's irrelevant. So far you have failed to explain how concentrating the chakra within the arm, boosts one's movement speed and instead, resorted to trying to change the subject.

        Loading editor
    • I dont have to explain chakra in the feet because thats not the point im making, it never was if you paid attention to what i have been saying.

      Chidori has its own momentum. Which is why Kakashi says it is fast. This momentum causes the user to move faster than they would without Chidori's momentum.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: Rasengan doesnt have this issue and Naruto charges in a straightline dash with it.

      The Rasengan isn't a piercing attack nor is it for assassination.

        Loading editor
    • Piercing doesnt cause tunnel visions and Chidori is based off of Rasengan so there purpose is pretty much the same, especially considering that Rasengan is typically a one hit kill.

      The execution is exactly the same, but only Chidori has a tunnel vision problem because of how it is executed? That makes zero sense.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      So you're saying Chidori moves on it's own? Like it's a thruster flinging the owner with it?

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: Piercing doesnt cause tunnel visions and Chidori is based off of Rasengan so there purpose is pretty much the same, especially considering that Rasengan is typically a one hit kill.

      The execution is exactly the same, but only Chidori has a tunnel vision problem because of how it is executed? That makes zero sense.

      No. The Chidori is a failed evolution of the Rasengan. And that failed jutsu was converted into am assassination piercing technique. The Rasengan grinds on contact and violently disperses to knock opponents back. For the Chidori to be effective it needs to be used quickly at high speeds.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      So you're saying Chidori moves on it's own? Like it's a thruster flinging the owner with it?

      Yep. This would give kid Kakashi and kid Sasuke a purpose for dragging it against walls/the ground.

      It explains how no matter how fast the user is without Chidori they suffer tunnel vision and why they dont just run slower to avoid gettimg tunnel vision in the first placr.

      It explains how it pushes the body past its limits.

      And it explains why Kakashi called the jutsu fast and why Minato banned it for being too fast.

      Littlegen wrote:

      No. The Chidori is a failed evolution of the Rasengan.

      Failed evolution still means its based off of the Rasengan. They are the same concept, chakra condensed into one hand and pushed into an enemy at close range.

      Littlegen wrote:

      And that failed jutsu was converted into am assassination piercing technique. The Rasengan grinds on contact and violently disperses to knock opponents back.

      And the Rasengan isnt an assasination technique? Its not a technique meant to kill? Its not a one-shot on almost every enemy it has hit thus far? Just because they kill people differently doesnt mean they werent meant to kill people.

      And if we are being honest, Guy called Chidori a technique meant for assassination, its creator said its meant to protect whats important to the user

      Littlegen wrote:

      For the Chidori to be effective it needs to be used quickly at high speeds.

      Running doesnt effect its peircing ability, running is to try and bypass the enemies reflexes but it would be much safer to use it in mid-range to CQC as opposed to long range and there are multiple instances where it is used that way

        Loading editor
    • I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

        Loading editor
    • I feel like you failed to make a real point. Peircing vs grinding has nothing to do with tunnel vision or movement speed.

        Loading editor
    • You're ignoring the actual explanation.

      https://gyazo.com/bb4c26fdf8a333e621ac98f1570e8e7c https://gyazo.com/fd3cb2687a0ca6cc78bf4b49c6fc815a You need speed to utilize Chidori to its full potential.

      https://gyazo.com/06dddd200c6f250dda3054caa25392be https://gyazo.com/98f06e0254c5aa20064a4cdfa8ba4d6e The Lightning release is meant to increase the piercing potential of the jab while the discharge increases its range.

      https://i.gyazo.com/97caa92706e1ec70d8a021f167970859.png The speed necessary to effectively reach their opponent and then execute the technique leads the user to running in predictable patters as the user's focus makes them partially blind.

      The technique in no way increases one's speed but forces one to use their full speed. Sasuke is unique because he is one of the fastest Characters in the series and always uses his Sharingan in conjunction with it. The time he doesn't, Naruto is able to counter him.

        Loading editor
    • Chapter 228 p10 and chapter 244 p4 show that Chidori is just as effective in CQC without running from distance.

      Chidori itself is fast, as explained by Kakashi and Minato in 240.

        Loading editor
    • Its 227. And again, it's a freaking jab. Naruto was prone and he had free rain to punch Naruto through the chest with Chidori.

      https://gyazo.com/8eda188e745b1f72c4172bbf4494e5e2 Do you not see him kicking off the ground to gain speed?

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      If that was the case how would one be able to use it standstill? You would see them struggle as this technique pulls them. Not to mention, dragging it would slow the user down since it would be pointing downwards. Don't think you thought that theory through.

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote:

      Its 227.

      228 shows the aftermath of the attack.

      Littlegen wrote:

      And again, it's a freaking jab. Naruto was prone and he had free rain to punch Naruto through the chest with Chidori.

      Free reign or not the result was exactly the same as a full sprint. Naruto wasnt restrained or incapacitated, he could have tried to defend himself.

      Littlegen wrote:

      https://gyazo.com/8eda188e745b1f72c4172bbf4494e5e2 Do you not see him kicking off the ground to gain speed?

      Ch. 420 p7 Kakashi used Raikiri point blank without a dash/sprint and even with his chakra disrupted Raikiri got his whole hand into the wall

      608 p8 Kakashi cut through giant shuriken and took one step

      674 p12 Chidori was used just fine while in standing position

      LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      If that was the case how would one be able to use it standstill?

      Because the force is used to propel the arm instead of the whole body.

      Sasuke got blindsided by Naruto in 621 even though he wasnt running after his Sharingan faded

      LoneNinja wrote:

      You would see them struggle as this technique pulls them.

      Chidori users have a tendancy to hold their arms and Chidori is pushing downwards the few times that they dont immediately start moving at the enemy.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Not to mention, dragging it would slow the user down since it would be pointing downwards.

      Yep. Slowing them down would help them control it better and allow an extra suprise burst of speed once they were close enough to go for the actual hit. After they both got older and got faster they stopped dragging it, they also stopped using it from long distances

        Loading editor
    • The Chidori is Best utilized when it is a dash attack, having the users quickly zone in and striking than moving on to the next target. Unlike the Rasengan it is not effective motionless, it requires movement.

      It doesn't bolster speed but requires high speed for the best result. It can't effect the body or arm as the Chakra is focused in the palm. The discharge is added range and doesn't propel anything.

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote:

      Unlike the Rasengan it is not effective motionless, it requires movement.

      This is untrue. I just dropped like, 3 chapters where users just took a swing and it did just as much damage as it does when the user runs

      Littlegen wrote:

      It doesn't bolster speed but requires high speed for the best result. It can't effect the body or arm as the Chakra is focused in the palm. The discharge is added range and doesn't propel anything.

      Thats the exact opposite of what Kakashi and Minato have to say about it in chapter 240

        Loading editor
    • You know what.... enjoy being wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote: You know what.... enjoy being wrong.

      I can quote the chapter directly if you want and you can claim Kishimoto is wrong about the fictional thing he made up.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      Still doesn't make sense. If the force of speed is faster than the user, at such a degree that they can't even see; then obviously they don't possess the strength in their body to get to that speed. All of what you said is hypothetical and I find it extremely impossible to believe the Manga wouldn't state one thing you just said. I also find it extremely impossible to believe that the Databook would make no single ounce of mention of what you just said.

      The fact Sasuke can easily swipe his arm, standstill, at Sakura, slashing with extreme ease with no amount of struggle; disproves your theory.

      FYI: The chapter you provided is your interpretation. I already proved that others don't interpret it the same way. What you interpret is in the minority. The only single evidence you actually might have, is Kakashi saying flash. Even then, that can be interpret into time to kill, or can be ignored since it was proven not to be even fast.

        Loading editor
    • Its not my interpretation, Kishimoto is spellng it out in 240. Kakashi called the jutsu fast. Idk how you can keep saying its not fast when Kishimoto wrote it this fact into the dialogue. Ill get mutliple translatioms, official and unofficial if you want. In every version ive seen he calls the jutsu fast.

      Better yet, provide a translation where he doesnt say the jutsu is fast since you want to claim thats not what he said.

        Loading editor
    • I never said Kakashi never said it was fast. I said that is only a possibility that he said it was fast because it can be interpreted differently. You say he meant speed. I say he could of meant Time to kill, thrusting speed, etc. I also pointed out that it was shown not to be fast in a few instances. Sasuke standstill point kills all your arguments alone. You can't use a technique standstill with that much ease if the technique pulls you faster than your eyes can handle without Sharingan. Also, how is a technique fast if you are already running at your target, get within 5 feet of that target, and only have to just hit the target, but they who waited to even move a centimeter until you got within five feet, yell and slash after yelling which almost kills the user of Chidori. Minato with ease, grabs the user of Chidori and saves him before anyone can react. The fact he waited until Kakashi got within five feet, yelled, then slashed, showcases a lack of efficient speed to get the job done.

      You also have no evidence to support your thruster claim that Chidori pulls it's target. Like you made that completely up. If Chidori did all these things you say it does which is so much important information, why hasn't Kishimoto stated any of it directly? Why did he leave all this information out in the Databook. He seemed to do a pretty good job explaining everything else even going so far as to fix false statements he previously said, but when it comes to a signature technique of two main characters, he neglects it?

      If Chidori is such a speed enhancer why is there no speed difference. Sasuke and Naruto in VOTE 1, were near even at their maximum. There was no gap in speed between the two, they kept up with each other. When we see the techniques clash, Sasuke and Naruto both moved the same distance before clashing. Which means Sasuke didn't get a boost of speed at all.

      In every single case, Chidori is seen with ease and reacted to when it comes to none fodder.

      The mere fact Naruto could even react to Sasuke's Chidori in a burnt out state, where as Sasuke was refueled by Kurama's Chakra, also kills your theory.

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote:

      I never said Kakashi never said it was fast. I said that is only a possibility that he said it was fast because it can be interpreted differently.

      So you are saying that Kakashi said Chidori is fast, but then saying Chidori isnt fast? For real.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Sasuke standstill point kills all your arguments alone. You can't use a technique standstill with that much ease if the technique pulls you faster than your eyes can handle without Sharingan.

      Even if hes at a standstill he can still direct the momentum without having to run with it. Weight throwers do something similar.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Also, how is a technique fast if you are already running at your target, get within 5 feet of that target, and only have to just hit the target, but they who waited to even move a centimeter until you got within five feet, yell and slash after yelling which almost kills the user of Chidori.

      Its called timing. Like how Naruto managed to counter the 3rd Raikage. Kakashi was far enough that the Rock ninja to find good timing.

      Kakashi in this scene had hit 17 targets successfuly and was only countered by the one who observed him and his technique land on 17 others.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Minato with ease, grabs the user of Chidori and saves him before anyone can react.

      You mean the dude who is only slower than God-tier characters?

      LoneNinja wrote:

      You also have no evidence to support your thruster claim that Chidori pulls it's target.

      That is a conclusion i came to. Its called a theory. Based on the fact that

      • Chidori has speed as stated by Kakashi
      • The speed makes Chidori an incomplete jutsu because of the tunnel vision effect
      • The fact that this flaw isnt subverted by the by simply running slower.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      He seemed to do a pretty good job explaining everything else even going so far as to fix false statements he previously said, but when it comes to a signature technique of two main characters, he neglects it?

      False statements? I like to think i have distinguished my theories facts from the series

      LoneNinja wrote:

      If Chidori is such a speed enhancer why is there no speed difference. Sasuke and Naruto in VOTE 1, were near even at their maximum. There was no gap in speed between the two, they kept up with each other. When we see the techniques clash, Sasuke and Naruto both moved the same distance before clashing. Which means Sasuke didn't get a boost of speed at all.

      1 Tail Naruto is fast enough that CM2 Sasuke had to block a direct hit from Naruto as opposed to dodging it. Ch. 232 p2-4

      LoneNinja wrote:

      The mere fact Naruto could even react to Sasuke's Chidori in a burnt out state, where as Sasuke was refueled by Kurama's Chakra, also kills your theory.

      So refueled that he couldnt properly keep his Sharingan active?

      Sasuke telegraphed that attack hardcore, monologuing before launching the attack giving Naruto a very clear indication when he should counter.

      The fact that Sasuke was so blindsided by Naruto supports Chidori having speed. Sasuke should have been able to see Naruto's attack and react to it in some way if running really fast is what made the user unable to see counters.

      There are plenty of methods available to make Chidori usable in combat but the series constantly says it impossible to use Chidori without a Sharingan, which wouldnt be the case if the problem is running too fast.

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero

      What causes concentrated lightning chakra in the palm of your hand to have an effect on your movement speed?

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War: The momentum/force/speed of the lightning.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      1) I didn't say Kakashi said anything. I merely said it's only one of many possibilities of what he was referring too.

      2) Not if he is doing it in that way. He performed it with such ease that it was portrayed like child's play.

      3) Timing? So let me get this straight. Kakashi runs full speed and gets within five feet. This fodder character sees him. Yells. Slashes. All because of timing? No. Timing would of been him seeing Kakashi ran from afar and as Kakashi approached from afar, began his slash. But he waited until the last moment and yelled then slashed. That isn't timing, that's showcasing that he could move just as fast if not faster therefore proving Kakashi just wasn't fast enough. Don't matter what he seen prior. He waited until Kakashi was within striking distance before he moved a single centimeter. Kakashi had every advantage. He had all the momentum. He failed.

      4) I don't care for theories especially when they are hard to even grasp. Run slower? Why can't Kakashi just use it standstill like Sasuke? Why couldn't he just use the derivations? Obviously Kakashi didn't want to. Running fast and straightforward gives Chidori it's best possible damage. If the user doesn't run straightforward at such speeds, what good is it? If people could react and counter before, what stops them from going the extra mile? Also the only thing that makes it incomplete is the fact people can react to it. If a technique moved so fast that it hit 99% of the Shinobi population faster than they can react even if the user could not see as it was transpiring, there still wouldn't be a problem because it still hit it's target.

      5) Key word. Block. If Sasuke dodged, he'd be faster. If he got hit, he'd be slower. But he blocked which showcases even speed. There's no way you're going to convince me they weren't near even in that fight when the Manga literally portrays it.

      6) I'm actually glad you brought that up. Naruto in his tired state, brink of collapsing, was able to uppercut Sasuke, who was already in momentum with his hand inches from Naruto's face, yet the propulsion couldn't beat Naruto's hand out that moved last second? The mere fact Sasuke could even use Chidori in that state proves there's no propulsion factor. He'd be dragged all across the valley, lol. Also he wouldn't be able to hold Chidori facing to his left while in air heading straight. If Chidori has a propulsion, it would pull him to his left and downwards and he wouldn't be able to resist cause he's in mid air, lol.

      Too many things wrong with your theory.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: @Ninja of War: The momentum/force/speed of the lightning.

      Again, how does it affect movement speed?

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      1) I didn't say Kakashi said anything. I merely said it's only one of many possibilities of what he was referring too.

      "Even if there are a lot of enemies, this jutsu can do it in an instant, its the same as your nickname... "

      "It doesnt matter how many enemies there are, this'll end it in a flash. Its the same as your nickname"

      Official anime dub: "no matter how many of them there are, i can take them down in an instant with this jutsu. Its exactly like your nickname sensei..."

      Every single translation Kakashi calls Chidori fast and says its able to take down a large number of enemies in a short period of time and then he even goes so far as to compare it to Minato's nickname. A nickname he recieved for being so fast, not because he has "fast thrusts" or short "time to kill" whatever that means.

      What Kishimoto wrote cannot be interpereted any other way and trying to find another meaning is denial/deflection considering the direct parralels he makes between Chidori's attributes and Minato


      LoneNinja wrote:

      2) Not if he is doing it in that way. He performed it with such ease that it was portrayed like child's play.

      Ease? Like the 17 shadow clones that failed before him?

      He did it with such ease that he was nervous and sweating?

      By the time he finished yelling the whole dodge and everything took place

      Compare this to the 3rd aikage in the 1st half of 554 if you want to see what it looks like to dodge something with ease

      3) Timing? So let me get this straight. Kakashi runs full speed and gets within five feet. This fodder character sees him. Yells. Slashes. All because of timing? No. Timing would of been him seeing Kakashi ran from afar and as Kakashi approached from afar, began his slash. But he waited until the last moment and yelled then slashed. That isn't timing, that's showcasing that he could move just as fast if not faster therefore proving Kakashi just wasn't fast enough. Don't matter what he seen prior. He waited until Kakashi was within striking distance before he moved a single centimeter. Kakashi had every advantage. He had all the momentum. He failed. </div> So jonin level ninja are fodder? I guess Kakashi is more fodder than the rock dude considering Kakashi is a fresh jonin.

      Watching someone charge from far away after having studied them for a while and getting an understanding of how fast they are is an advantage for Kakashi? Having tunnel vision and not being able to see anything less than a foot out of direct line of sight is an advantage for Kakashi?

      I also want to know how you can tell when he moved considering the ONLY frame with them together has Minato already pulling Kakashi back in the opposite direction he was running and the swing was already finished. For all you know he was yelling and dodging at the same time.

      Considering none of the 17 rock JONIN's shadow clones could reflexively dodge close range that means the original had to time it properly from a distance in order to land his strike

      LoneNinja wrote:

      4) I don't care for theories especially when they are hard to even grasp. Run slower?

      So pre-Sharingan and post Sharingan Kakashi would rather not use one of his most destructive jutsu because he refuses to move at a speed in which he can be aware of his surroundings? Thats like saying Naruto would refuse to use the Rasenshuriken unless he uses it the way he did against Kakuzu even though it will sever the chakra network in his hand.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Running fast and straightforward gives Chidori it's best possible damage.

      Thats not true.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Why can't Kakashi just use it standstill like Sasuke?

      He can. And he has.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Why couldn't he just use the derivations? Obviously Kakashi didn't want to.

      He didnt develop them. He hasnt seen them.

      LoneNinja wrote:


      If the user doesn't run straightforward at such speeds, what good is it? If people could react and counter before, what stops them from going the extra mile?

      Its actually plenty good considering it has the same destructive capacity when used while stationary. With the added benefit of seeing the opponants counters and being able to react to those counters properly. Its execution wpwould be exactly the same as the Rasengan

      Also, none of its destructive force was ever attributed to its speed

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Also the only thing that makes it incomplete is the fact people can react to it. If a technique moved so fast that it hit 99% of the Shinobi population faster than they can react even if the user could not see as it was transpiring, there still wouldn't be a problem because it still hit it's

      Ch 240 p14: "Because the speed of your movements are so fast, you can't see the opponants counter. Because of that, its an incomplete jutsu"

      The inability to see a counter makes it incomplete. Not that its easy to dodge.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      5) Key word. Block. If Sasuke dodged, he'd be faster. If he got hit, he'd be slower. But he blocked which showcases even speed. There's no way you're going to convince me they weren't near even in that fight when the Manga literally portrays it.

      Reaction time=/=running speed

      LoneNinja wrote:

      6) I'm actually glad you brought that up. Naruto in his tired state, brink of collapsing, was able to uppercut Sasuke, who was already in momentum with his hand inches from Naruto's face, yet the propulsion couldn't beat Naruto's hand out that moved last second? The mere fact Sasuke could even use Chidori in that state proves there's no propulsion factor. He'd be dragged all across the valley, lol. Also he wouldn't be able to hold Chidori facing to his left while in air heading straight. If Chidori has a propulsion, it would pull him to his left and downwards and he wouldn't be able to resist cause he's in mid air, lol.

      They werent as exhausted as you are making them out to be. Naruto literally punched Sasuke dozens of feet into a mountain, leaving a crater, and Sasuke had enough stamina to muster another Chidori, Amaterasu, and hold MS through out the entire last clash.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: @Ninja of War: The momentum/force/speed of the lightning.

      Again, how does it affect movement speed?

      It either pushes/pulls the user. Since no matter how fast a user seems to be or get they still have tunnel vision while using it so it seems to be addative

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      It either pushes/pulls the user. Since no matter how fast a user seems to be or get they still have tunnel vision while using it so it seems to be addative

      So you say that tunnel vision happens regardless of speed? Then it's a perception problem, not speed.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      1) It can be because it obviously is. Why couldn't someone interpret it differently when obviously so many are?

      2) What are you talking about? I'm talking about Sasuke thrusting standstill behind Sakura with enough force to kill her.

      3) Doesn't matter how far someone is and how much you observe them. If someone runs at you full speed, and you move back just as fast, you move as fast. Not too mention, he pulled a Minato. He literally waited to move until Kakashi was within five feet. We see them clearly in the panel as Kakashi states "Number 18". Kakashi is still in momentum. The guy screams (the scream tells me that Kakashi isn't faster than sound). Slashes upwards. His Slash > Kakashi's speed. One reached the other first. I also like to point out all the clones reacted to Kakashi, and had it not been for Minato blocking all their kunai, Kakashi would have been dead.

      But in anycase, I actually retract my argument of Chidori boosting speed. I wanted to see what was actually said from a legit translation. But I need to think and read it over more because of what the Viz has Minato saying...

      "From what I saw, it's a strike with a single focus. It certainly has speed and destructive power... But it makes you move too fast to ascertain the opponent's counter attack. It's still imperfect."

      I still disagree about Chidori's problem. If a technique connects then there's no reason to see your opponent's counter. Therefore, the problem isn't being able to see the counter, it's why they can counter. As long as the jutsu does it's job, there's no problem. If the target can counter, it is not doing it's job which is thrusting. Anyways, the statement "it makes you move too fast" can be evidence to Chidori boosting speed; therefore, I need to read Gai's and Lee's statements now.

        Loading editor
    • So to clarify are your assumptions based off the Chidori being a ball of tangible lightning or a death stab with said lightning?


      If Chidori is a ball of lightning, no the user controls the speed of the ball. If Chidori is the assassination, yes the speed the user moves at is part of the technique. See Eight Trigrams Revolving Heaven it is a technique whereby the user spins to deflect attacks, the power is based on the rotational speed of the user but does not accelerate said speed. The user can agument their speed like Neji using Lee's front lotus to spin them both faster.

        Loading editor
    • The whole thing about chidori not providing it's own propulsion on the grounds that kakashi and sasuke can create it while standing still is illogical, for the simple reason the raikage can stand still with his raiton armor, so that argument gets tossed out of the window. 8 gates guy can also stand still. 7 gates guys stood still over kisame. Almost all speed boosting techniques in naruto boost the user's parameters via a multiper. Obviously, if you are standing still your velocity is 0, so even if your multipler is x 100, 0 x 100 is still 0. basic multiplication people.

      And two, no one has properly addressed the tunnel vision issues, so that point still stands lol. The only person who addressed it directly was a moderator and the best argument they had was that naruto has inconsistent physics, which means at worst, we are at a draw, because the best argument the opposition has is that chakra to the arm boosting speed doesn't make sense with physics and logic. But news flash, my argument still stands as a valid theory for the simple fact it's also irrational to believe ninjas don't use their top speed and running. still waiting for proof that base naruto was runs slower with rasengan because he is afraid of tunnel vision. Furthermore the issue with tunnel vision comes when you are moving too fast for your OWN senses. The issue isn't the speed boost by itself. the issue is, can your BRAIN and EYES track the surroundings of your enviorment at those speeds. If you boost your speed to unatural levels, i.e to limits that push your body with a technique, that technique needs to also add a corrective factor to your reflexes,which is the whole reason why the raikage needs the nerve transmission boost from his raiton armor to complement the speed. Kakashi failed to incorporate this corrective facter, so Minato BANNED the technique. Banning a technique is a big deal that people are overlooking. there is a difference between saying a technique is not useful in some situations versus telling someone to never use it again.

      Furthermore, no one has proved that the 8 gates or bijuu chakra cloaks fails to stimulate nervous system as much as it boosts the user speed, so that doesn't refute my theory either. Might guy literally runs at relativistic speeds and doesn't have tunnel vision, so it is quite obvious in my point of view that the eight gays corrects for any tunnel vision issues those kinds of speeds would cause presumably by stimulating the nervous system. It isn't directly stated, but at the same time it is heavily implied, so either way it can't be used as a counterargument.

      Elvenora said it best: This discussion stems from one thing and one thing alone, people's attempts to explain thetunnel vision'.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      1) The Propulsion of Chidori is nothing like Lightning Armor and KCM Cloak. Last i checked Lightning Armor isn't something that moves on it's own. Legion thinks Chidori is like a thruster on an Airplane, it has its on push and the users have to pull it back. So no, Lighting Armor and KCM Cloak is nothing like that theory since they don't pull and push the owner, lmao.

      2) Why would anyone need to prove wrong an ability of any technique that it isn't stated to have? No one should ever have to prove an ability a fan created for a canon ability. The fan has to prove that they have that ability since the writer did not state they have that ability. That's literally like saying go prove too me there isn't a race of cookie beings on a planet called Bushnu. Smh.

        Loading editor
    • Can this thread be closed? All it is is going in circles.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      LegionZero wrote:

      It either pushes/pulls the user. Since no matter how fast a user seems to be or get they still have tunnel vision while using it so it seems to be addative

      So you say that tunnel vision happens regardless of speed? Then it's a perception problem, not speed.

      It has always been a perception problem. The manga says said that the Chidori makes the user too fast to see counter attacks. Kakashi said the Sharingan (which has heightened perception)

      LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      1) It can be because it obviously is. Why couldn't someone interpret it differently when obviously so many are?

      "no matter how many of them there are...." The number of enemies is inconsequencial

      "i can take them down in an instant with this jutsu." With Chidori i can kill them in a very short amount of time

      "Its exactly like your nickname sensei..." Chidori is like your nickname that you recieved for being so fast.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      2) What are you talking about? I'm talking about Sasuke thrusting standstill behind Sakura with enough force to kill her.

      Ch. 420 p6

      LoneNinja wrote:

      3) Doesn't matter how far someone is and how much you observe them. If someone runs at you full speed, and you move back just as fast, you move as fast.

      Baseball players can retract swings after looking a split at a baseball flying at 90-100 mph. Pretty sure that an elite level ninja can perform a last second dodge from someone faster than him coming from a distince.

      He moved one foot back and slashed. You are acting like he did some sort of huge dodge, he side-stepped the attack and took a swipe at Kakashi. Which is exactly what Minato told Kakashi made the jutsu incomplete.

      Also, until you can provide an exact panel that shows the Rock Jonin not moving before Kakashi would have hit him

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Not too mention, he pulled a Minato.

      Minato used FTG

      LoneNinja wrote:

      He literally waited to move until Kakashi was within five feet. We see them clearly in the panel as Kakashi states "Number 18". Kakashi is still in momentum. The guy screams (the scream tells me that Kakashi isn't faster than sound).

      That doesnt mean Kakashi isnt faster than sound. How would this even be relevent?

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Slashes upwards. His Slash > Kakashi's speed. One reached the other first. I also like to point out all the clones reacted to Kakashi, and had it not been for Minato blocking all their kunai, Kakashi would have been dead.

      All the clones were hundreds of feet away minimum. You can throw crap at a car on a highway if its far enough.

      Also Baseball players average 70-80 mph swings. The fastest runner is like what? 20-30mph? A well timed swing can definitely land on a Chidori user.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      I still disagree about Chidori's problem. If a technique connects then there's no reason to see your opponent's counter. Therefore, the problem isn't being able to see the counter, it's why they can counter. As long as the jutsu does it's job, there's no problem. If the target can counter, it is not doing it's job which is thrusting.

      If being the keyword. There are too many variables in any given combat situation to assume Chidori will land without a problem. This was shown in the series multiple times.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      1) Again, who are you to say no one can interpret it differently when people clearly do? Doesn't matter what one illegal translation says. People interpret it differently. I interpreted that statement differently. The Mods. The other users. Are you Kishimoto? Is your way the only way? Are you all knowing? Okay then.

      2) Again what are you talking about? I said Sasuke performed standstill Chidori with ease which you replied with that chapter. What does that chapter have to do with Sasuke using Chidori with ease?

      3) Baseball players swing between 70-80 mphs. With a slight reaction speed, and a swing that fast anyone can hit a 90-100 mphs pitch. To be more precise, baseballs that move 90 mphs only move 1 foot around 8 milliseconds. Baseball swingers who swing at 70 mphs, swing up to a foot around 10 milliseconds. There's not much of a gap in timing here which means a minimal reaction speed is needed.

      4) The distance as shown when Kakashi states "18" is about 5 feet. We can clearly see where his sword is, where he is standing, etc. So why are you acting like he was already in movement when there's no movement lines around the fodder character? If Kakashi was moving faster than sound, he would hit his target at precisely five milliseconds aka 40x faster than the average human blinks. The guy then shouts, takes a step back, and slashes. Shouting takes time. Stepping backwards takes time. Slashing upwards with a foot of movement takes time. He did all that within five milliseconds? No. The fact he even shouted proves they weren't moving as fast as sound. He formed a complete sentence "Don't push your luck, runt!". The word "Don't" alone, proves it isn't. The man wouldn't have been able to even say "don't" if Kakashi was moving 1.1 feet per millisecond (the lowest speed of sound) since the first sound of the word couldn't be formed since Kakashi would be moving at the same exact speed of that first sound. The man would of been interrupted. But he wasn't. He formed a complete sentence, took a step back, slashed. All that > Kakashi's speed. It's simple, if Kakashi was as fast as sound, the man wouldn't have shouted cause he wouldn't have been able to, he wouldn't have been able to take a step back (from the distance it looks to be above a foot apart) unless it moved around the speed of sound, and he wouldn't have slashed Kakashi unless his arm's movement was moving faster than sound (which is actually possible in the Narutoverse). The reason this is relevant is because I said Chidori wasn't fast which you disagreed. I have always stated if something is slower than sound, it isn't fast in my opinion.

      5) Look at 4.

      6) Exactly, if. There's an if. Why? If Chidori moved as fast as you claimed (Lightning Speed), there wouldn't be an if. Lightning moves at 1/3rd the speed of light. Or to be exact 320,000,000 feet per second. Or 320,000 feet per millisecond. Or 320 feet per microsecond. Or 1 foot about every 3 in and half nanoseconds. That would mean Kakashi moves 1 foot at every 3 in and half nanoseconds. That is by far faster than 99% of anyone in the entire world can react therefore there'd be no reason to worry about an if. Therefore, why can anyone can counter?

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      It has always been a perception problem. The manga says said that the Chidori makes the user too fast to see counter attacks. Kakashi said the Sharingan (which has heightened perception)

      You can't say tunnel vision occurs regardless of speed, while saying chidori makes the user too fast to see counter attacks. That's a contradiction right there. So what is the cause of the tunnel vision? What is your evidence that the chidori boosts speed?

        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      I'll stop you right there. You are simply misinterpreting Legion's words. I'm fairly confident that when that user says propulsion, he is referring to chidori providing a speed boost, so that is a simple semantical issue. Like I said, Chidori adds a SPEED BOOST the same why those other techniques do. the only difference is it that it fails to stimulate the user's nervous system. Your point 2 is debunked because you and other opposition claim that the tunnel vision comes from kakashi simply building too much "rock lee" speed, which is debunked because other characters who use speed boosting techniques are ten times faster than rock lee and don't experience any tunnel vision. Therefore, the only other possibility is that the speed itself isn't the problem, it's whether or not your nervous system can handle the speed boost. That is the grounds upon which i said it's implied that the chakra cloaks of bijuu and the 8 gates boost the user's reflexes. It properly accounts for all issues. So I'll continue to wait for an actual rebuttal to my theory.

      Ninja of War is doing the same thing by taking a few sentences out of context instead of looking at the overarching points Legion has been making. Legion is clearly saying that the speed boost offered by chidori causes tunnel vision because it doesn't add a corrective factor for the nervous system. I genuinely don't understand how this point hasn't gotten across to you lot yet. the Sharingan adds the corrective factor, it's that simple. Kakashi failed to add a nervous system boost to his technique the same way the raikage did, which is why the technique was incomplete. There is no point in boosting your speed if you can't actually properly observe what's going on in the environment around you.

      @littlegen, the thread is only going in circles because the opposition clearly doesn't even understand our arguments up to now, based on what I just read.

        Loading editor
    • If your synapses/nervous system are not prepared or boosted enough to help with the tech then that is why it creates tunnel vision. Raikiri/Chidori does give a great speed boost but as was pointed out it lacks the ability to boost the synapses and nervous system that help with eyesight, therfore tunnel vision occurs for those with no Dojutsu.

      Edit

      If Kakashi was to learn the Lightning Release Chakra Mode then he could use Chidori again, as it boosts the synapses and nervous system.

      https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_Release_Chakra_Mode

        Loading editor
    • THANK YOU someone else understands what we are saying.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Stop yourself, I already asked him what he meant and he said it.

      "@Legion

      So you're saying Chidori moves on it's own? Like it's a thruster flinging the owner with it?"

      "Yep. This would give kid Kakashi and kid Sasuke a purpose for dragging it against walls/the ground."

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero
      LegionZero removed this reply because:
      Whoopsie
      08:09, November 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      1) Again, who are you to say no one can interpret it differently when people clearly do? Doesn't matter what one illegal translation says. People interpret it differently. I interpreted that statement differently. The Mods. The other users. Are you Kishimoto? Is your way the only way? Are you all knowing? Okay then.

      Go ahead an interperet it. I didnt even quote one of the illegal ones i quoted the official dub.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      2) Again what are you talking about? I said Sasuke performed standstill Chidori with ease which you replied with that chapter. What does that chapter have to do with Sasuke using Chidori with ease?

      Kakashi using Chidori from a standstill.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      3) Baseball players swing between 70-80 mphs. With a slight reaction speed, and a swing that fast anyone can hit a 90-100 mphs pitch. To be more precise, baseballs that move 90 mphs only move 1 foot around 8 milliseconds. Baseball swingers who swing at 70 mphs, swing up to a foot around 10 milliseconds. There's not much of a gap in timing here which means a minimal reaction speed is needed.

      This only backs up the point that the rock jonin can counter properly even if he isnt as fast.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      4) The distance as shown when Kakashi states "18" is about 5 feet. We can clearly see where his sword is, where he is standing, etc. So why are you acting like he was already in movement when there's no movement lines around the fodder character? If Kakashi was moving faster than sound, he would hit his target at precisely five milliseconds aka 40x faster than the average human blinks. The guy then shouts, takes a step back, and slashes. Shouting takes time. Stepping backwards takes time. Slashing upwards with a foot of movement takes time. He did all that within five milliseconds? No. The fact he even shouted proves they weren't moving as fast as sound. He formed a complete sentence "Don't push your luck, runt!". The word "Don't" alone, proves it isn't. The man wouldn't have been able to even say "don't" if Kakashi was moving 1.1 feet per millisecond (the lowest speed of sound) since the first sound of the word couldn't be formed since Kakashi would be moving at the same exact speed of that first sound. The man would of been interrupted. But he wasn't. He formed a complete sentence, took a step back, slashed. All that > Kakashi's speed. It's simple, if Kakashi was as fast as sound, the man wouldn't have shouted cause he wouldn't have been able to, he wouldn't have been able to take a step back (from the distance it looks to be above a foot apart) unless it moved around the speed of sound, and he wouldn't have slashed Kakashi unless his arm's movement was moving faster than sound (which is actually possible in the Narutoverse). The reason this is relevant is because I said Chidori wasn't fast which you disagreed. I have always stated if something is slower than sound, it isn't fast in my opinion.

      Characters move faster than sound all the time in the series while speaking. This point is beyond moot.

      All we see of the jonin before the moment after the counter is his face with nothing but lines behind it.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      6) Exactly, if. There's an if. Why? If Chidori moved as fast as you claimed (Lightning Speed), there wouldn't be an if. Lightning moves at 1/3rd the speed of light. Or to be exact 320,000,000 feet per second. Or 320,000 feet per millisecond. Or 320 feet per microsecond. Or 1 foot about every 3 in and half nanoseconds. That would mean Kakashi moves 1 foot at every 3 in and half nanoseconds. That is by far faster than 99% of anyone in the entire world can react therefore there'd be no reason to worry about an if. Therefore, why can anyone can counter?

      The series has characters who can react to lightning. The only time it would be used would be on a high level opponant who could potentially counter it.

      Haku did it. Twice.

      Gaara protected himself from it.

      Pain did it. Twice.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      You can't say tunnel vision occurs regardless of speed, while saying chidori makes the user too fast to see counter attacks. That's a contradiction right there. So what is the cause of the tunnel vision? What is your evidence that the chidori boosts speed?

      Ok hold on. I dont think im being clear about what i mean.

      Chidori In Use=User max speed+push/pull of Chidori

      So hypotheitically, if Kakashi can run at 200 mph and Chidori moves at 100 mph, then Kakashi using Chidori moves at 300 mph. This would cause the tunnel vision since Kakashi can only percieve 200 mph.

      So even if Kakashi can run at 400 mph, Chidori would still cause tunnel vision because it would boost him 100 mph over his limits

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero
      LegionZero removed this reply because:
      Whoops wrong forum
      10:24, November 22, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • @Legion

      2) ???

      Me: "Sasuke standstill point kills all your arguments alone. You can't use a technique standstill with that much ease if the technique pulls you faster than your eyes can handle without Sharingan."

      You: "Even if hes at a standstill he can still direct the momentum without having to run with it. Weight throwers do something similar."

      Me: "Not if he is doing it in that way. He performed it with such ease that it was portrayed like child's play."

      You: "Ease? Like the 17 shadow clones that failed before him? He did it with such ease that he was nervous and sweating? By the time he finished yelling the whole dodge and everything took place. Compare this to the 3rd aikage in the 1st half of 554 if you want to see what it looks like to dodge something with ease."

      Me: "What are you talking about? I'm talking about Sasuke thrusting standstill behind Sakura with enough force to kill her."

      You: "Ch. 420 p6"

      Like what? Ch. 420 doesn't have all that, that you stated. Nor do I see a point of Kakashi using Raikiri standstill. If anything it proves my point that the user's don't suffer from a pull.

      3) The baseball batter is just as fast as the baseball. So what are you talking about? As fast. As, Adverb, used in comparisons to refer to the extent or degree of something. 2 millisecond difference definitely fits that definition. So, lol.

      4) Proof?

      5) Why would it only be used on people who can counter it? That makes zero sense, lol. "I'm only going to use this fast boosting jutsu only against people fast enough to dodge or counter it. It doesn't matter if I struggle against an opponent, I will only use this if only they are fast enough to dodge it." What, lol?

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      Please, don't misinterpret me. I clearly asked @Legion to explain what he claims. Note: He did say what I posted before, that's why I had to bring it up.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Ok hold on. I dont think im being clear about what i mean.

      Chidori In Use=User max speed+push/pull of Chidori

      So hypotheitically, if Kakashi can run at 200 mph and Chidori moves at 100 mph, then Kakashi using Chidori moves at 300 mph. This would cause the tunnel vision since Kakashi can only percieve 200 mph.

      So even if Kakashi can run at 400 mph, Chidori would still cause tunnel vision because it would boost him 100 mph over his limits

      I get your explanation. But you didn't answer my second question. Regarding your claim that chidori boosts speed, why can Sasuke/Kakashi use it standing still then?

      Where is the pull/push effect then??

      Again, what is the proof that this pull/push effect exists?

        Loading editor
    • Chidori boosts movement speed, but only for whatever body part is moving whether its just the arms or the legs. Kakashi cannot use it without the Sharingan because of the tunnel vision effect. Tunnel vision effect would be gone if Kakashi for example had the lightning release armor.

        Loading editor
    • @FlatZone

      Proof?

        Loading editor
    • LoneNinja wrote: @Legion

      2) ???

      Me: "Sasuke standstill point kills all your arguments alone. You can't use a technique standstill with that much ease if the technique pulls you faster than your eyes can handle without Sharingan."

      You: "Even if hes at a standstill he can still direct the momentum without having to run with it. Weight throwers do something similar."

      Me: "Not if he is doing it in that way. He performed it with such ease that it was portrayed like child's play."

      You: "Ease? Like the 17 shadow clones that failed before him? He did it with such ease that he was nervous and sweating? By the time he finished yelling the whole dodge and everything took place. Compare this to the 3rd aikage in the 1st half of 554 if you want to see what it looks like to dodge something with ease."

      Me: "What are you talking about? I'm talking about Sasuke thrusting standstill behind Sakura with enough force to kill her."

      You: "Ch. 420 p6"

      Like what? Ch. 420 doesn't have all that, that you stated. Nor do I see a point of Kakashi using Raikiri standstill. If anything it proves my point that the user's don't suffer from a pull.

      Kakashi does use Raikiri from a stand still in 420. Its on page 6-7

      LoneNinja wrote:

      3) The baseball batter is just as fast as the baseball. So what are you talking about? As fast. As, Adverb, used in comparisons to refer to the extent or degree of something. 2 millisecond difference definitely fits that definition. So, lol.

      That just means that the rock Jonin swings just about as fast as Kakashi was running or he was able to time it properly to intercept Kakashi.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      5) Why would it only be used on people who can counter it? That makes zero sense, lol. "I'm only going to use this fast boosting jutsu only against people fast enough to dodge or counter it. It doesn't matter if I struggle against an opponent, I will only use this if only they are fast enough to dodge it." What, lol?

      Kakashi would use it on any enemy he deemed necessary to use it on but Kakashi but the technique can be countered and he would never see it coming

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      I get your explanation. But you didn't answer my second question. Regarding your claim that chidori boosts speed, why can Sasuke/Kakashi use it standing still then?

      Where is the pull/push effect then??

      Either it doesnt kick in until the user is in motion

      Or they direct it downwards. The bolts always shoot upwards once Chidori is formed until the user swings/runs. This trait doesnt carry over to any other lightning jutsu that doesnt is left contained

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Again, what is the proof that this pull/push effect exists?

      The user has an inablility to use it at speed that doesnt exceed their perception.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      2) Still don't see the relevance. How does that prove Chidori has propulsion?


      4) So no proof of character moving faster than sound while talking. Therefore, Kakashi was not moving faster than sound.

      5) "but it can be countered". Why? Why can it be countered by anyone? If it moved 1/3rd the speed of light, how can just anyone counter? As I shown with point 3), you have to be moving as fast to counter it. Not just anyone can move 1/3rd the speed of light. Heck not just anyone can react to lightning.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, I can't believe it but, Loneninja and Ninja of War and all the others are actually right.

      See, the reason it took me so long to realize it is because the opposition refused to explain why other characters faster than rock lee didn't experience tunnel vision, so I needed to figure it out my own by doing significant rereading and keeping an open mind.

      My arguments rested on the idea that ninjas always use their top speed in battle, ironically because of Loneninja and LegionZero. But this obviously isn't true. Think about it. Ever did martial arts? Ever watch boxing? notice how the fighters aren't using their top running speed all the time. It would be stupid if they did. The fighters would run at their top speed and collide into each other. Fighters only use their top speed if they need to retreat or chase after someone, but in the heat of battle it's risky to do that because of tunnel vision plus the fact it's hard to accelerate to a stop easily. So fighters find a middle ground, fast enough to pressure their opponent and close the distance but slow enough to avoid tunnel vision. The only reason minato and tobi appear to be the same speed is because minato is running slower than he normally does to avoid tunnel vision, plus if he runs too fast obito would just slip through and catch him with the chains again. Now, of course there are exceptions. The Raikage runs at his top speed without any fear because he has the extra reflex boost from the ration armor. but even he doesn't always use top speed 24/7.This explains why KCM naruto appears to be slower than he actually is at times. KCM naruto doesn't use his top speed all the time, which explains how all those characters who should be much slower than him were keeping up. When naruto actually tried to get away from obito for example, he successfully did so. The only reason obito caught him was because he sneaked his gunbai through a rock in naruto's blindspot. other than that naruto appeared slower against obito because he was trying to balance avoiding tunnel vision with also trying to hit a dude who goes intangible in an instant. Basically, while I now agree that raikiri doesn't boost speed, all that other stuff about obito being as fast as kcm naruto or minato isn't true either.

      The opposition also did a poor job in my opinion of explaining rock lee. but I see it now. Rock lee only used his top speed in small bursts against gaara, while constantly changing direction, so he never built up too much running speed to the point it would create a significant tunnel vision issue. I'm still confident that rock lee experiences some tunnel vision in the 5th gate but there is probably a reflex boost to reduce it. plus he appeared to jumping off the ceiling and stuff to help himself change directions quickly and not build up too much speed.

      Also, look at jiraiya vs pain. When sage mode jiraiya blinded the human path of pain, I now believe the human path couldn't react to the kick because of his tunnel vision. Why? because that same path had no trouble reacting to jiraiya's punch. the human path was probably running at his top speed when he thought jiraiya was distracted by ma and pa and because of that he didn't see the kick coming.

      So yeah, raikiri/chidori does not boost one's speed. The reason the technique is "instant" and is kakashi's fastest technique is because when uses it optimally, he runs at his absolute top speed, a speed he wouldn't dare run at in battle in normal circumstances. this would normally cause tunnel vision but the sharingan corrects it. Raikiri is meant to be a technique that ends the fight with impossible speed and the pinnacle of penetration power. the reason they only run so fast when using that technique is because if the technique fails to kill their opponent, they are dead, so they have to run as fast they can to minimize the chance of a reaction but also to ensure penetration occurs. However, Minato banned the technique because without a sharingan, it's far too risky for kakashi to use against opponents who can react to his absolute top speed. Kakashi would be limited to using it as a kunai, which is pointless because raikri saps a ton of chakra and a kunai can get the job done just fine.

      the reason I'm confident it's kakashi's speed and not a boost from the technique is because now the whole thing about sasuke having to train to rock lee's speed makes a lot more sense. He needed to be at rock lee's level of speed because rock lee was the fastest character in the chunin exams at the time. If sasuke is as fast as rock lee then all the characters would have trouble reacting to his full speed chidori.

        Loading editor
    • @Combat

      I'm pretty sure everyone has stated majority of what you said. So if no one has done a good job, you haven't either.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Okay, I can't believe it but, Loneninja and Ninja of War and all the others are actually right.

      See, the reason it took me so long to realize it is because the opposition refused to explain why other characters faster than rock lee didn't experience tunnel vision...

      While I appreciate the nice words, explanation and the manner of explanation, I have to address something. I can only speak for myself in saying that I never understood why others claim the chidori boosts speed. As I saw no feats for it nor any mechanism that 1) links concentrated lighting nature chakra in your hand to foot speed, or 2) How chidori apparently affects the nervous system, as some claim.

      As I did not (and still don't) see this, I asked those who claimed it to explain it to me. I got some explanations, but proof is still lacking. There is a lot of speculation going around.

      Now, it is not my job or anyone opposing this assumption that Chidori boosts speed to explain, why other characters than rock lee don't experience tunnel vision. I'm not making that statement, so I don't have to defend it.

      So respectfully, "No u".

        Loading editor
    • @ninja of war: admittedly the mechanics of how it boosts speed is speculation on my part but these are the facts as stated in the manga:

      • Chidori makes the user too fast to see counter attacks. Ch 240 p14
      • Chidori is incredibly fast. Ch 240 p2
      • Chidori is impossible to use in combat without the Sharingan. Ch 128 p19
        Loading editor
    • @Loneninja

      I'm ok with that, like I said from the beginning if someone actually debunked my argument properly, I am more than capable of changing my stance.


      @Ninja of War What you said there isn't wrong, but my logic is this: The other characters are a big deal because you don't see anyone else complaining about tunnel vision issues when they fight, it's always seemed to be a chidori thing. If the other characters are using their top speed when they fight, then the argument that rock lee's speed causes tunnel vision clearly creates an issue because rock lee isn't even close to being the fastest character in the manga despite being up there. which is the whole reason why I had to go back and analyze if that assumption was true. If the opposition fails to address that issue, then they have failed in defending their stance as well, even if their stance is correct.


      @LegionZero,

      Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. But again, the jutsu is fast because the users have to use their top speed as a requirement for the penetration. The evidence is clear because other characters are seen not using their top speed during a fight 24/7. Look at how fast Minato was in comparison to the other hokage when he ran to the battlefield and then look at how he compares to the other hokage during battle. The speed difference between them seemed to become a lot smaller. That's because all the characters seem to be cautious about tunnel vision or overextending with their speed. kakashi designed the technique to utilize his absolute top speed and to end his opponent as fast as possible with penetrative force. but minato banned it because using your top speed in a fight is dangerous unless your opponent is guaranteed to be unable to react.

      Look at the raikage vs obito at the kage summit. Ayy charged at obito presumably with his V2 speed and went crashing into a wall after slipping through obito. Ayy had little to no tunnel vision because of the reflex boost, but he was still incredibly off balanced and couldn't immediately stop his speed.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote:

      @Ninja of War What you said there isn't wrong, but my logic is this: The other characters are a big deal because you don't see anyone else complaining about tunnel vision issues when they fight, it's always seemed to be a chidori thing. If the other characters are using their top speed when they fight, then the argument that rock lee's speed causes tunnel vision clearly creates an issue because rock lee isn't even close to being the fastest character in the manga despite being up there. which is the whole reason why I had to go back and analyze if that assumption was true. If the opposition fails to address that issue, then they have failed in defending their stance as well, even if their stance is correct.

      I've always wondered about the tunnel vision for chidori. There are inconsistencies with motionless and in motion chidori regarding tunnel vision. No mechanism explained. So it is speculation. Please don't paint such broad strokes with the "opposition". I don't have to defend it, because it's a negative (And I didn't make that statement to begin with). You have to defend your assumptions though.

      Since your point of view is a positive, you are one of the users claiming it. I don't have to try and "prove" you wrong. You are wrong until proven right. Unless you just want to say your opinion or deal with assumptions. Which is fine, just don't switch between them when making your point.

        Loading editor
    • @Ninja of War

      The idea that the chidori requires your absolute top speed to be used makes sense. but then again saying it's a requirement is misleading because we have clearly seen that sasuke and kakashi don't always run while using it. It's just optimal to use your absolute top speed so that it finishes your opponent with maximum efficiency and effectiveness with penetration while minimizing the reaction time. It's just how kakashi designed the technique to be used. I don't think there is an inconsistency with chidori between standing and running in terms of the tunnel vision. The tunnel vision is purely due to running too fast in a singular direction as rock lee stated. that's how tunnel vision works in real life. You move too fast and it's hard for your eyes to see objects in each of your peripheral vision centers. The only inconsistency however is the fact that the characters opt to use it standing still where they aren't running, which seems to defeat the purpose of the technique. At that point, why wouldn't kakashi simply use rasengan? it doesn't require hand signs, doesn't drain his chakra as heavily, and can kill easily on it's own with the grinding and explosion effect. Hokage kakashi stopped using the rakiri technique but it isn't completely useless. kakashi had no trouble using raikri even though he was only standing a few inches from deva pain when he got stabbed by Deva's rod, but I don't see why he would opt to use raikiri over rasengan unless it's just kakashi's personality to always use raikiri.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero,

      Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. But again, the jutsu is fast because the users have to use their top speed as a requirement for the penetration.

      Except its not. The speed was never stated to be necessery for the technique or contribute to it penetrative power. In fact the manga has shown the exact opposite of this claim multiple times.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: The evidence is clear because other characters are seen not using their top speed during a fight 24/7. Look at how fast Minato was in comparison to the other hokage when he ran to the battlefield and then look at how he compares to the other hokage during battle. The speed difference between them seemed to become a lot smaller.

      Travel speed=/=Combat Speed

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      That's because all the characters seem to be cautious about tunnel vision or overextending with their speed.

      High speculation.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      kakashi designed the technique to utilize his absolute top speed and to end his opponent as fast as possible with penetrative force.

      Never stated

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      but minato banned it because using your top speed in a fight is dangerous unless your opponent is guaranteed to be unable to react.

      This wouldnt be a good reason to ban the technique altogether.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Look at the raikage vs obito at the kage summit. Ayy charged at obito presumably with his V2 speed and went crashing into a wall after slipping through obito. Ayy had little to no tunnel vision because of the reflex boost, but he was still incredibly off balanced and couldn't immediately stop his speed.

      That was A V1 and even non-speedsters have a similar problem after passing through Obito. 541 shows that stopping his momentum isnt a problem for him

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero

      I never imagined I would be arguing against you on this, but here goes lol.

      1) The speed isn't "necessary" per say but the issue is the nature of the attack. It's a piercing move. Yes the raiton chakra has penetrative abilities but penetration attacks benefit heavily from speed. the problem in close quarters combat, the technique requires hand signs. You don't have time to weave those, so you need to start weaving the techique outside of the enemy's attack range, or you are gonna be tagged. That's exactly what happened to kakashi. why do you think he got tagged by pein's rod even though he easily dodged the kick? because he was weaving the signs for raikiri. The cinematics don't always show the hand signs but it's happening. if kakashi starts out of the range of his opponent, he needs to use his top speed to ensure the technique lands and penetrates, or else he is wasting chakra, it's a finishing move. kakashi used it against pain in CQC because he was presumably desperate, but it's still an inconsistency/ a personality issue.


      2) I'm actually not referring to combat speed. His running speed easily dwarfed that of the previous 3 kage yet when when we see him running with them in the midst of battle he is not much faster than them.


      3) It's not speculation, it's physics.It explains why kcm naruto isn't always running at his top speed. If you run too fast in one direction you will be off balance and slower to recover. the proof? Killer bee commented on naruto specifically using the body flicker to blitz kisame, and as a result naruto ended up getting his foot in the ground by accident. Naruto isn't always using his top speed. Chapter 541 also proves both Ayy and naruto weren't using their top speed the whole time. By your logic base bee is as fast as V2 Ayy if we assume everyone is using their top speed 24/7 in a serious fight/dispute.


      4) It was stated. kakashi was seen using his top speed to the point it created tunnel vision. sasuke also had to train to rock lee's level of speed to make the technique fast enough to compete in the chunnin exams. Rock lee said he wouldn't run at his level of speed in a straight line like that because he doesn't have a sharingan. rock lee has run at his top speed only in small bursts.

      5) It is a good reason. Using your top speed in a fight causes tunnel vision, cause you to be off balanced, can cause you to collide into your opponent, etc... Again, watch any boxing or karate fight in real life and you will see people aren't running at their top speed the whole time lol. naruo works the same way. when minato uses his actual top speed body flicker, obito comments on it, yet minato and obito run at the same speed? nope, minato is running at a slower speed, just like everyone else to avoid tunnel vision. If minato runs at his top speed obito would just phase through and minato would get tagged by the chains. It's a balance between defense and offense. once minato closed the distance, he used superior combat speed and FTG to ensure he tagged obito, not his running speed.

      6) proof that it was v1? Everyone has the problem but the issue is the magnitude. And how does 541 prove your point? again, the faster you run the harder it is to slow down immediately, it takes time and is dependent on the speed you are running at. That's why Ayy ended up punching the wall even though naruto already moved. it's just basic physics. People only use their top running speed to escape an attack if it's necessary, to retreat, or chase after someone, just like kcm naruto did to escape ayy, and to tag kisame. the only exception is if your like A4, who's fighting style involves him using his top speed to end the fight before it begins, he can get away with it because he is one of the fastest character in the manga and it's hard to react to him, and the tunnel vision isn't too bad because of his reflex boost.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero

      I never imagined I would be arguing against you on this, but here goes lol.

      1) The speed isn't "necessary" per say but the issue is the nature of the attack. It's a piercing move. Yes the raiton chakra has penetrative abilities but penetration attacks benefit heavily from speed. the problem in close quarters combat, the technique requires hand signs. You don't have time to weave those, so you need to start weaving the techique outside of the enemy's attack range, or you are gonna be tagged. That's exactly what happened to kakashi. why do you think he got tagged by pein's rod even though he easily dodged the kick? because he was weaving the signs for raikiri. The cinematics don't always show the hand signs but it's happening. if kakashi starts out of the range of his opponent, he needs to use his top speed to ensure the technique lands and penetrates, or else he is wasting chakra, it's a finishing move. kakashi used it against pain in CQC because he was presumably desperate, but it's still an inconsistency/ a personality issue.

      Raikiri/Chidori stopped requiring handsigns by the time of the Pain fight. He spontaniously activates it on the very next page and Sasuke had done it on numerous occasions

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      2) I'm actually not referring to combat speed. His running speed easily dwarfed that of the previous 3 kage yet when when we see him running with them in the midst of battle he is not much faster than them.

      Chapters?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      3) It's not speculation, it's physics.It explains why kcm naruto isn't always running at his top speed. If you run too fast in one direction you will be off balance and slower to recover. the proof? Killer bee commented on naruto specifically using the body flicker to blitz kisame, and as a result naruto ended up getting his foot in the ground by accident. Naruto isn't always using his top speed.

      Naruto attributed his foot getting stuck to hitting the wall too hard, not moving too fast

      Naruto was shown coming to a sudden stop right after.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Chapter 541 also proves both Ayy and naruto weren't using their top speed the whole time. By your logic base bee is as fast as V2 Ayy if we assume everyone is using their top speed 24/7 in a serious fight/dispute.

      A shows no sign of carrying forward momentum at the moment the punch landed or after.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      4) It was stated. kakashi was seen using his top speed to the point it created tunnel vision. sasuke also had to train to rock lee's level of speed to make the technique fast enough to compete in the chunnin exams. Rock lee said he wouldn't run at his level of speed in a straight line like that because he doesn't have a sharingan. rock lee has run at his top speed only in small bursts.

      It was not stated and its been shown to be as effective without the run as it is with it.

      What was stated was that Chidori made Kakashi fast.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      5) It is a good reason. Using your top speed in a fight causes tunnel vision, cause you to be off balanced, can cause you to collide into your opponent, etc... Again, watch any boxing or karate fight in real life and you will see people aren't running at their top speed the whole time lol. naruo works the same way.

      Its not a good reason to ban the technique because it can be used safely and effectively without running.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      when minato uses his actual top speed body flicker, obito comments on it, yet minato and obito run at the same speed? nope, minato is running at a slower speed, just like everyone else to avoid tunnel vision. If minato runs at his top speed obito would just phase through and minato would get tagged by the chains. It's a balance between defense and offense. once minato closed the distance, he used superior combat speed and FTG to ensure he tagged obito, not his running

      Its because they are actually very close in speed. Obito was very powerful when he faced off against Minato and showed speed & reflexes close to if not on par with Minato. If this wasnt the case minato would have run circles around him like he did with most other opponents.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      6) proof that it was v1? Everyone has the problem but the issue is the magnitude.

      His hair wasnt spiky

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      And how does 541 prove your point? again, the faster you run the harder it is to slow down immediately, it takes time and is dependent on the speed you are running at. That's why Ayy ended up punching the wall even though naruto already moved. it's just basic physics. People only use their top running speed to escape an attack if it's necessary, to retreat, or chase after someone, just like kcm naruto did to escape ayy, and to tag kisame. the only exception is if your like A4, who's fighting style involves him using his top speed to end the fight before it begins, he can get away with it because he is one of the fastest character in the manga and it's hard to react to him, and the tunnel vision isn't too bad because of his reflex boost.

      Naruto stopped fairly easily after dodging A's full speed punch

      Ay was already midswing so him punching the wall isnt proof that he could stop his run. Im fact if this was true he would have faceplanted into the side of the mountain if he was moving as fast as he could but had in inability to properly stop himself.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      Its because they are actually very close in speed. Obito was very powerful when he faced off against Minato and showed speed & reflexes close to if not on par with Minato. If this wasnt the case minato would have run circles around him like he did with most other opponents.

      Proof that Minato was using his top speed there? @Combat actually made a good argument about characters not always using their top speed. It made me think of this instance in a different light. One could argue that Minato didn't use his top speed to gauge "Madara's" abilities at that point.

        Loading editor
    • Same argument would be applied to every character

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero

      1) Or it's a cinematic issue. The author doesn't always show the handsigns on panel, even for techniques that always require them.


      2) It's hard to see with minato because the author switches the camera a lot, so a better example is kcm naruto. Chapter 565 pg 11, why is he complaining about being unable to hit his opponents, despite running directly toward roshi? We even see him running toward roshi and meeting him for close combat? With naruto's top speed shunshin that he used to blitz kisame, that shouldn't be an issue. Roshi woud have been rofl blitzed there if naruto was always using his top speed.The issue is tunnel vision plus being off balanced kakashi and guy were also "keeping up" with those jinchuriki even in v2 form. Clearly we aren't gonna say they are all the same speed. Why isn't naruto "running circles" around them here? I highly doubt roshi is anywhere near as fast as full speed kcm naruto

      Furthermore, again, the proof that characters don't always move at their top speed is right there in those chapters you cited. If kcm naruto can run faster than absolute V2 Ayy, then how is naruto being intercepted by V1 Ayy? Exactly, because you elevate your speed when the situation calls for it. He wasn't expecting Ayy to be fast enough to intercept him.


      3) It's literally impossible for obito be as fast as minato in running speed. Again, whenever we actually see obito commenting on minato's actual speed, he is always impressed. Minato uses top speed to save kushina, uses top speed to save naruto, but using your top speed mid battle constantly is a different thing. Furthermore, I already stated why minato didn't "run circles" around him. Obito can phase in an instant, plus both characters are on the clock. If minato uses top speed he would suffer from tunnel vision and easily phase through and get tagged by obito's chains, and he is also physically off balanced. Minato would only use his top speed if he certain the opponent can't react to him. So like I said, the characters find a middle ground with speed, fast enough to pressure their opponent, but not so fast it causes tunnel vision, but it's situational. There is no evidence that obito himself was running at his top speed there either, unless we are gonna say they are exactly the same speed just because they covered the same distance lol.

      Going by that same logic, base Might Guy is as fast as obito and minato because guy was able to chase down obito and engage him in CQC.

      4) Further proof? Chapter 641 pg 10-11 I'm not buying for a second that kcm naruto and sasuke are the same speed and they are both running at their fastest just because they are running together in a serious fight against a god tier. Sasuke isn't even anywhere near as fast V2 ayy. If the characters are always concerned about running at their fastest, then there is literally no reason why naruto wouldn't just use his top body flicker and try to hit obito with his rasengan. that shows the characters are willing to run at a mid-ground speed because there are more variables/risks involved, aka physics. Tunnel vision+ the opponent reacting to their attack/ and being off balanced.

      5)

      Again, it's relative. Ayy wasn't moving so fast he face planted but there is considerable distance between himself and that wall before naruto moves. If he could stop immediately there is no reason why he is crashing into the wall. Ayy was confirmed to be running at his absolute fastest there and yet he still ended up hitting the wall. Again, physics still applies in naruto even though there are some fictional aspects. You didn't see how naruto came to a stop there, he still has movement lines on him. Killer bee/tsunade said he had "yellow flash" speed and then the manga panel just shows naruto still slowing down his speed.


      As for raikiri, as I said the reason Minato banned the technique is because the way kakashi was using it, he was clearly running at his top speed and it caused tunnel vision for him, and the reason kakashi was doing it was because it's a piercing move plus it requires handsigns, unlike rasengan. Kakashi has speed and power with the piercing and running at his top speed but it isn't worth getting tagged by an unseen counterattack. In close range kakashi might as well use a kunai or rasengan, but he doesn't do so because of personality in my opinion. Now that he has lost his sharingan, there is 0 reason why he can't form it in his hand and use it in CQC just like he did to Deva pain. If it's true that raikiri boosts his running speed, then using it when your opponent is right in your face doesn't really offer any advantage, especially since kakashi boxed pain in by placing the earth wall right behind him, there was no space for pain to run to.

      Also, The fact that ayy used V1 against obito against obito at the kage summit doesn't help obito's case. If ayy was using v2 there obito would have lost his head because he seem surprised by Ayy's v1 speed.


      @Flatzone, It's situational. In some situations the characters take the risk but there is always circumstances. It's high risk high reward to use your top speed, and by the end of the manga many of the characters have advanced dojutsu or sensory abilities that would reduce the effect of tunnel vision. * gates guy can get away with using his top speed with night guy because that attack is something 99 percent of the cast can't react to once he starts running. Characters use their top speed mostly to evade extremely fast attacks, or to run to someone's rescue, or to retreat. Not even ayy is running at his top speed 24/7, unless you think v1 ayy is exactly as fast kage summit sasuke just because they both ran at each other, I highly doubt that, as that same v1 ayy when using his top speed could blitz a kisame clone's head off before it can finish a single hand seal.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: Same argument would be applied to every character

      Only characters with unknown abilities, or first time combat.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Proof that Minato was using his top speed there? @Combat actually made a good argument about characters not always using their top speed. It made me think of this instance in a different light. One could argue that Minato didn't use his top speed to gauge "Madara's" abilities at that point.

      Minato is guaging a man who had already shown to be fast enough to keep up with him, had released the 9 tails on his village, kidnapped hos wife, bypassed super high level barriers, displayed intangibility and who he had recognized as having superior time-space jutsu? Minato had gone so far as to believe he was Madara on feats alone and only ruled it u likely because Madara was supposed to be dead. At minimum he believed "Madara" to be a Kage level fighter so i find it highly unlikely that he was testing him at all.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      1) Or it's a cinematic issue. The author doesn't always show the handsigns on panel, even for techniques that always require them.

      Its not. A majority of the time it will show at least 1 hand sign. Chidori has been activated multiple times with no need for hand signs by Sasuke and Kakashi.

      2) It's hard to see with minato because the author switches the camera a lot, so a better example is kcm naruto. </div> Then how can you make this claim at all?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Chapter 565 pg 11, why is he complaining about being unable to hit his opponents, despite running directly toward roshi? We even see him running toward roshi and meeting him for close combat? With naruto's top speed shunshin that he used to blitz kisame, that shouldn't be an issue. Roshi woud have been rofl blitzed there if naruto was always using his top speed.

      They were outnumbered, fighting against opponents of a similar level with connected vision and Sharingan, a variety of different abilities, and who could use the forrst as cover for sneak and surprise attacks. Naruto caught Roshi just after the moment you specified and was about to merc him until another jinchuriki blindsided him. Then on the same page this occured, Bee and Gyuki discuss how the forest is getting in the way of them seeing the enemy.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      3) It's literally impossible for obito be as fast as minato in running speed.

      Says you but he did it. Its in the manga. Its why Minato had to use FTG to finish him instead of a good old fashion speedblitz from a blind spot.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Again, whenever we actually see obito commenting on minato's actual speed, he is always impressed. Minato uses top speed to save kushina, uses top speed to save naruto, but using your top speed mid battle constantly is a different thing.

      So a character has to comment every single time that another character is doing something?

      Minato states that the winner of the fight would be the one who is a split second faster. By his own words, the difference in their speeds were fractions of a second. The split second Minato needed was afforded to him by FTG not his raw speed.

      Kishimoto emphasized this even more by writing on the panel that it was a high speed battle.

      Ch 503 p8 Obito states that he is surprised Minato was able to hit him.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      There is no evidence that obito himself was running at his top speed there either, unless we are gonna say they are exactly the same speed just because they covered the same distance lol

      Not sure how you think this warrents a "lol" as you said both characters are on a clock and then you defeated your own claims that its possible that neither of them are using their top speeds.

      "Both characters need to finish their task ASAP. But neither of them are using their top speed but maybe they both were at their top speed and the only instant the manga gave us a direct comparison of their speed they covered the same distance over the same amount of time but im going to laugh because you think that means they are the same speed."

      Like, really bro?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Going by that same logic, base Might Guy is as fast as obito and minato because guy was able to chase down obito and engage him in CQC.

      This never happened. Guy never chased down Obito. Obito was constantly toying with Guy when they were in a confrontation and Naruto/Kakashi/Bee/Gyuki butted in whenever Obito was going to try something.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      4) Further proof? Chapter 641 pg 10-11 I'm not buying for a second that kcm naruto and sasuke are the same speed and they are both running at their fastest just because they are running together in a serious fight against a god tier. Sasuke isn't even anywhere near as fast V2 ayy. If the characters are always concerned about running at their fastest, then there is literally no reason why naruto wouldn't just use his top body flicker and try to hit obito with his rasengan. that shows the characters are willing to run at a mid-ground speed because there are more variables/risks involved, aka physics. Tunnel vision+ the opponent reacting to their attack/ and being off balanced.

      Since they are suppose to be working together so why would Naruto leave Sasuke in his dust?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      You didn't see how naruto came to a stop there, he still has movement lines on him. Killer bee/tsunade said he had "yellow flash" speed and then the manga panel just shows naruto still slowing down his speed.

      The movement lines are super tiny, showing no distance covered in that moment. If his stop took place over a longer distance then the motion lines would be longer.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      As for raikiri, as I said the reason Minato banned the technique is because the way kakashi was using it, he was clearly running at his top speed and it caused tunnel vision for him

      It doesnt make sense to bam a technique because one way to use it is dangerous.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      and the reason kakashi was doing it was because it's a piercing

      This is both unconfirmed, debunked by the manga, and nonsensical. Peircing attach do not require the user move at high speeds.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      move plus it requires handsigns

      As do most techniques in the Narutoverse

      Kakashi has speed and power with the piercing and running at his top speed but it isn't worth getting tagged by an unseen counterattack. In close range kakashi might as well use a kunai or rasengan, but he doesn't do so because of personality in my opinion. </div> Chidori does significantly more damage than a kunai. The only reason Kakashi uses Chidori after Minato banning it is because the Sharingan canceled the tunnel vision. After losing the Sharingan he abandoned Chidori.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Now that he has lost his sharingan, there is 0 reason why he can't form it in his hand and use it in CQC just like he did to Deva pain.

      Because the speed of Chidori would be transferred into the swing, resulting in distorted vision.

      Sasuke in Boruto again states that Chidori only works in conjunction with the Sharingan dispite having used it without running which is what so many on the wiki attribute the tunnel vision to.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      If it's true that raikiri boosts his running speed, then using it when your opponent is right in your face doesn't really offer any advantage, especially since kakashi boxed pain in by placing the earth wall right behind him, there was no space for pain to run to.

      Besides the fact that Chidori busts through water tanks and boulders?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Also, The fact that ayy used V1 against obito against obito at the kage summit doesn't help obito's case. If ayy was using v2 there obito would have lost his head because he seem surprised by Ayy's v1 speed.

      He seemed surprised but he noticed A moving at him from quite a distance away and reacted appropriately and then proceeded to give 0 craps about A or his abilities. Casually hopping about and telling his stories. It wasnt even stated that he surprised by his speed at all. Could have been suprised that A went for an attack at all.

      Being surprised=/=being slower

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      @Flatzone, It's situational. In some situations the characters take the risk but there is always circumstances. It's high risk high reward to use your top speed, and by the end of the manga many of the characters have advanced dojutsu or sensory abilities that would reduce the effect of tunnel vision. * gates guy can get away with using his top speed with night guy because that attack is something 99 percent of the cast can't react to once he starts running. Characters use their top speed mostly to evade extremely fast attacks, or to run to someone's rescue, or to retreat. Not even ayy is running at his top speed 24/7, unless you think v1 ayy is exactly as fast kage summit sasuke just because they both ran at each other, I highly doubt that, as that same v1 ayy when using his top speed could blitz a kisame clone's head off before it can finish a single hand seal.

      Kisame was faking his death to spy on them...

      A didnt start outspeeding Sasuke until he went V2 so yea, Sasuke was competantly competing with V1 A. If V2 wasnt necessary then A would just move faster while in V1

      It should also be noted that Purple Lightning and powerful breath are lightning Style techniques that have been used and executed in the same fashion as Chidori but are safe to use.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      Minato is guaging a man who had already shown to be fast enough to keep up with him, had released the 9 tails on his village, kidnapped hos wife, bypassed super high level barriers, displayed intangibility and who he had recognized as having superior time-space jutsu? Minato had gone so far as to believe he was Madara on feats alone and only ruled it u likely because Madara was supposed to be dead. At minimum he believed "Madara" to be a Kage level fighter so i find it highly unlikely that he was testing him at all.

      So no proof on Minato using top speed? When did Obito keep up with Minato before then? Obito set up explosive tags on Naruto which Minato, removed and avoided the explosion. Later Obito appeared behind Minato, and used Kamui to phase through Minato's slash. To grab Minato.

      You are wrong in saying that Obito kept up with him speed wise before then.

      Also, my point was that Minato was gauging Kamui.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      So no proof on Minato using top speed?

      Ch 502 p 9 and 12 The fact that he caught Minato's hand means that his reflexes and combat speed were on par with Minato's, he also pulled a 180 and captured Minato in his chains before Minato could react

      502 p 14: Obito and Minato cover roughly equal distance in thair charge at one another

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      You are wrong in saying that Obito kept up with him speed wise before then.

      Im wrong? Then explain how it is that in CQC Obito wasnt overwhelmed by Minato and Minato couldnt speed blitz Obito from a blind spot.

      How about you prove that he wasnt using his top speed since you believe he wasnt.

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero Context. Obito was talking about his phasing speed. It's a battle of speed because once obito senses an attack, he can phase borderline instantly. Minato needs his FTG level 2, his fastest attack, in order to combat that effectively. That is a very different thing then running speed. there is zero evidence that they were using their top speed there. They were standing what? 18 feet away? Minato throws his kunai and then teleports to it like a few seconds after. Using your top running speed is also not critical if you have ever watched a boxing match or karate. If both characters are willing to come in close to each other for Close quarters combat, then running at your top speed is irrelevant because the fight switches to combat speed.

      Like I said, be consistent. why didn't obito run circles into might guy's blind spot if he is as fast as minato? Having minato's running speed means you are faster than the 3 previous hokages. With that speed, base guy would have been warped away without any issue. Guy chased him down and stalemated him in CQC. Obito was never shown to be as fast as minato. why isn't he running circles around Fuu and Torune? why isn't he shit blitzing base kabuto? Obito's speed is hard to scale because his fighting style doesn't require him to move much in the first place.


      Yes they are on the clock, which means there is no time for mistakes. Every second of analysis counts, and minato can't afford to be zipping around at his top speed when he doesn't understand the mechanics of kamui. He needs to be close to obito when he intiates ftg level 2 otherwise obito would have time to phase out. He needed to bait obito into materializing and he can't do that if he was zipping through obito at blistering speed, tunnel vision at all. FTG doesn't cause tunnel vision because it's instantenous movement.

      The notion that raikiri boosts speed comes with a plethora of inconsistencies. Again, let's take a look at kakazu. Shikamaru was fast enough to escape kakazu's suprise attack. Izumo and kotetsu "kept up" with that same kakazu in speed. That same kakazu intercepted kakashi's raikiri before he could finish hidan. So now shikamaru is as fast as kakashi when he is wielding rakiri? izmuo and kotetsu are as fast raikiri kakashi because they ran at kakazu with the same speed and covering the same distance?Something is clearly amiss.

      Second of all, Minato should be faster than kakashi in running speed, raikiri or not, yet he does not experience tunnel vision, and last I checked base minato doesn't have any enhanced sensory abilities or a sharingan, so that also debunks that he was using his top speed against obito. why would minato do the very same thing he told kakashi never to do again if his life, his family, his village are all on the line against "madara uchiha"

      Of course he was gauging madara's abilities. Minato only knows of what madara can do from the legends, and clearly "madara" is immortal because he is still alive. He has no idea what "madara" is capable of in terms of jutsu and techniques, so he has to analyze.

      Like I said, kcm naruto should have been running circles around him if he is using his top speed... By your own logic he should have been able to blitz slap roshi, not trade blows. Why not blitz into his blind spot and wack him in the head with rasengan, then pull the rod out while roshi is stunned/injured?

      My point about sasuke and naruto is that it debunks the claim that the characters always use their top speed. Sasuke is completely irrelevant if naruto's goal is to use his absolute top speed. Forget amaterasu, leave sasuke in the dust, and charge at juubito with the rasenshuriken using his "yellow flash speed" Clearly, there are circumstances where the characters opt not to use their top speed.

      As for handsigns, I can easily debunk this. Chapter 332 pg 11. We know for a fact Doton: domu requires at least one earth style handsign, yet he activates it with no shown handsign. Fast forward, and when the plot required it, we can see his hand seals when kakashi is watching him use it to protect himself from choji's attack. The characters can weave seals really fast and it's not always shown for cinematic purposes.

      Again, the bigggest mistake I was making before was forgetting the nature of the attack. It's an assassination technique and any one can see and hear it coming from a mile away. You have to start the technique outside the attack range or it isn't gonna tag any decently skilled opponent. The speed closes the distance efficiently, which is why kakashi needs his top speed. Furthermore, the techinique is chakra intensive. Furthermore, it's a piercing move. Piercing moves benefit from increased speed to ensure you stab through your opponent for a certain kill. But without a sharingan, if your opponent reacts your screwed.

      There is no evidence that sasuke is as fast as v1 ay. They both charged at each other and sasuke used his sharingan for combat speed to dodge the elbow. Ayy tanked chidori so that he could then transition into a body slam, because sasuke's hand was lodged into his body.

      Want more proof the characters don't use their top speed always? Killer bee shunshined across a mountain when he attempted to escape and jugo didn't even notice. yet the whole rest of time they were fighting bee wasn't "running circles" around them, proving my point that using your top speed isn't always applicable in the heat of battle.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      Ch 502 p 9 and 12 The fact that he caught Minato's hand means that his reflexes and combat speed were on par with Minato's, he also pulled a 180 and captured Minato in his chains before Minato could react

      Not quite, Obito predicted the slash(MS) and knew he should counter after he used Kamui intangibility, with Kamui warping. All he had to do was reach out his hand and time the grab(closing his hand). Which he could gauge before since he knows Minato. There is no foot-speed involved.

      LegionZero wrote:

      502 p 14: Obito and Minato cover roughly equal distance in thair charge at one another

      My point was that Minato was gauging Kamui then.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Im wrong? Then explain how it is that in CQC Obito wasnt overwhelmed by Minato and Minato couldnt speed blitz Obito from a blind spot.

      How about you prove that he wasnt using his top speed since you believe he wasnt.

      I showed you how in my previous post, note which part of the fight I'm talking about. Should I post it again?

      Don't have to prove that, since I'm asking you for proof on one of your statements.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja of War wrote:

      Not quite, Obito predicted the slash (MS) and knew he should counter after he used Kamui intangibility, with Kamui warping. All he had to do was reach out his hand and time the grab(closing his hand). Which he could gauge before since he knows Minato. There is no foot-speed involved.

      Excellent point. I think the sharingan is often forgotten but it's predicability is a big deal, plus obito's insight into his former master would have given him the advantage there. lol if obito didn't have kamui I'm certain after gauging him minato would have used his top speed against him without any worry, because if your opponent can't react then there is no reason to worry about tunnel vision. I'm certain Obito is fast just by virtue of having hashirama cells but nothing says he is as fast minato.

        Loading editor
    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero Context. Obito was talking about his phasing speed. It's a battle of speed because once obito senses an attack, he can phase borderline instantly. Minato needs his FTG level 2, his fastest attack, in order to combat that effectively. That is a very different thing then running speed. there is zero evidence that they were using their top speed there. They were standing what? 18 feet away? Minato throws his kunai and then teleports to it like a few seconds after. Using your top running speed is also not critical if you have ever watched a boxing match or karate. If both characters are willing to come in close to each other for Close quarters combat, then running at your top speed is irrelevant because the fight switches to combat speed.

      Cool and all but this isnt a boxing or karate match. There was much more at stake and Minato's best/quickest win method would be to get behind Obito and get hit on him, which he needed FTG for. Because Obito could read his movements and keep up with them.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Like I said, be consistent. why didn't obito run circles into might guy's blind spot if he is as fast as minato? Having minato's running speed means you are faster than the 3 previous hokages. With that speed, base guy would have been warped away without any issue.

      Because he was screwing with Guy, Naruto, Kakashi, and Bee the whole time. He wasnt the least bit concerned about any of them.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Guy chased him down and stalemated him in CQC.

      On some realness, chapters.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Obito was never shown to be as fast as minato.

      He was when he and Minato fought and Minato couldnt speed blitz him or pull some "super speed suddenly appear behind the enemy" thing. If Minato was faster he would have been able to get around Obito or strike Obito without Obito realizing it.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Why isn't he running circles around Fuu and Torune?

      He punked them what are you talking about?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      why isn't he shit blitzing base kabuto?

      Chapter?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Yes they are on the clock, which means there is no time for mistakes. Every second of analysis counts, and minato can't afford to be zipping around at his top speed when he doesn't understand the mechanics of kamui.

      He did understand the mechanics of Kamui, he analyzed it when he first swung at Obito and phased right through him.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      He needs to be close to obito when he intiates ftg level 2 otherwise obito would have time to phase out. He needed to bait obito into materializing and he can't do that if he was zipping through obito at blistering speed, tunnel vision at all. FTG doesn't cause tunnel vision because it's instantenous movement.

      If he was faster than Obito then Obito wouldnt have time to react and activate Kamui or even see Minato once Minato moved out of his line of sight. Zipping around into his blind spots and sneaking an attack is actually one of the best bets.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      The notion that raikiri boosts speed comes with a plethora of inconsistencies. Again, let's take a look at kakazu. Shikamaru was fast enough to escape kakazu's suprise attack. Izumo and kotetsu "kept up" with that same kakazu in speed. That same kakazu intercepted kakashi's raikiri before he could finish hidan. So now shikamaru is as fast as kakashi when he is wielding rakiri? izmuo and kotetsu are as fast raikiri kakashi because they ran at kakazu with the same speed and covering the same distance?Something is clearly amiss.

      They didnt keep up with him. In fact the 1st thing they did was stop him from moving his feet and he just punked them with some midrange stuff

      Shikamaru managed to dodge the initial attack but after that Kakuzu was going to merc him before he could get up off the ground and he needed to be saved by Asuma.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Second of all, Minato should be faster than kakashi in running speed, raikiri or not, yet he does not experience tunnel vision, and last I checked base minato doesn't have any enhanced sensory abilities or a sharingan, so that also debunks that he was using his top speed against obito. why would minato do the very same thing he told kakashi never to do again if his life, his family, his village are all on the line against "madara uchiha"

      Because Minato's senses have grown alongisde his speed. Chidori's speed boost is not something the user would be accustomed to.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Of course he was gauging madara's abilities. Minato only knows of what madara can do from the legends, and clearly "madara" is immortal because he is still alive. He has no idea what "madara" is capable of in terms of jutsu and techniques, so he has to analyze.

      Minato knew dick all about A and his abilities and the 1st thing he did was go for the kill. He knew dick all about Bees abilities but he decided to taunt him.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Like I said, kcm naruto should have been running circles around him if he is using his top speed... By your own logic he should have been able to blitz slap roshi, not trade blows. Why not blitz into his blind spot and wack him in the head with rasengan, then pull the rod out while roshi is stunned/injured?

      What blind spot? His vision was connected to 5 other people and when Naruto was in the middle of mercing him one of the other Edo-jin sucker punched him. In a one-on-one he would have beat them easy, but the environment+their shared vision prevented that from happening.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      My point about sasuke and naruto is that it debunks the claim that the characters always use their top speed. Sasuke is completely irrelevant if naruto's goal is to use his absolute top speed. Forget amaterasu, leave sasuke in the dust, and charge at juubito with the rasenshuriken using his "yellow flash speed" Clearly, there are circumstances where the characters opt not to use their top speed.

      It wasnt his goal to use his top speed at that time. His goal was to cooporate and communicate with Sasuke

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      As for handsigns, I can easily debunk this. Chapter 332 pg 11. We know for a fact Doton: domu requires at least one earth style handsign, yet he activates it with no shown handsign. Fast forward, and when the plot required it, we can see his hand seals when kakashi is watching him use it to protect himself from choji's attack. The characters can weave seals really fast and it's not always shown for cinematic purposes.

      Not debunked. It was explained on page 333 that he is fast enough that it typically cant be seen.

      Ch 308 p5: Sasuke activated Chidori Nagashi while Naruto held one hand

      Ch 308 p 7: Sasuke flows Chidori into his sword while holding said sword

      Ch 348 p12: Kakashi activates Chidori with no hand signs

      Ch 358 p5: Sasuke activates Chidori and then used Sharp Spear while holding his sword in one hand.

      Ch 411 p17: B channels lightning chakra into his sword while holding 7 other swords

      Ch 412 p3: Sasuke activates Chidori without even lifting his hand from the ground

      A's Lightning armor doesnt even use handsigns. The series has made made it chlear that Chidori/Raikiri can be done without hand signs and implies that a variety of lightning jutsu dont beed hand signs.

      There are more insances but im honestly bored of scanning damn near the whole manga to find it.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Furthermore, it's a piercing move. Piercing moves benefit from increased speed to ensure you stab through your opponent for a certain kill. But without a sharingan, if your opponent reacts your screwed.

      Punches, tackles, slashes etc etc, 90% of moves benefit from speed, Chidori is not special

      I dont know how many times i have to say this but Chidori is shown capable of piercing just about whatever without running. The series has never said the speed increases its peircing power and has never shown less peircing power without a run.

      The only thing i recall the series stating about the purpose of the speed is that it is to try to completely bypass reaction time.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      There is no evidence that sasuke is as fast as v1 ay. They both charged at each other and sasuke used his sharingan for combat speed to dodge the elbow. Ayy tanked chidori so that he could then transition into a body slam, because sasuke's hand was lodged into his body.

      They were legit swapping hands and A didnt start dominating Sasuke until going V2.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Want more proof the characters don't use their top speed always? Killer bee shunshined across a mountain when he attempted to escape and jugo didn't even notice. yet the whole rest of time they were fighting bee wasn't "running circles" around them, proving my point that using your top speed isn't always applicable in the heat of battle.

      Bee wasnt taking them seriously. If he was he would have started his fight with his Bijuu abilities.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Not quite, Obito predicted the slash(MS) and knew he should counter after he used Kamui intangibility, with Kamui warping. All he had to do was reach out his hand and time the grab(closing his hand). Which he could gauge before since he knows Minato. There is no foot-speed involved.

      Predicted? The series established that the Sharingan is useless if the the user is too slow to react properly to an opponant back in the Chunnin Exams arc.

      LegionZero wrote:

      My point was that Minato was gauging Kamui then.

      He had already analyzed Kamui after his hand slipped through Obito.

      If he wanted to guage Kamui he would throw things at him or use a shadow clone, not run face first and then get cought off guard. If those chains were like barbed wire or razor wire or if Obito decided to crush his throat he would be dead.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      It was preempted. Obito knew what Minato would do, all he had to do was to time the counterattack. It's not the same as reaction or first time combat.

      On gauging Kamui the second time, no the first time he reacted to it. The second time was the analysis. Minato has no idea of this technique. The second instance was most likely to determine that Obito needs to materialize to interact, as with the chain.

      Really? Minato would be dead from barbed wire? No man. Obito would have just phased through anything Minato threw at him, shadow clones require hand signs, which Minato does not prefer in combat.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Legion

      It was preempted. Obito knew what Minato would do, all he had to do was to time the counterattack. It's not the same as reaction or first time combat.

      Obito was going for a warp. Which is why he came up behind Minato just like he does with 90% of his opponants.

      In order to properly time grabbing Minato, especially they was he cought him, he needs the necessary reaction time.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      On gauging Kamui the second time, no the first time he reacted to it. The second time was the analysis. Minato has no idea of this technique. The second instance was most likely to determine that Obito needs to materialize to interact, as with the chain.

      He didnt just react after the 1st time. He sat there and basically narrated what Obito did. Noting that Obito solidified to to catch him.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Obito would have just phased through anything Minato threw at him,

      Thats the point. This is the sensible and safe way to gauge Kamui, if thats what he was doing, but instead he was shocked he slipped through him and he wouldnt have got cought in the chains

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      shadow clones require hand signs, which Minato does not prefer in combat.

      He prefers notnto have to use signs but he doesnt have a problem using them when it benefits him. He used a shadow clone in 4SWW, he used them for the summoning jutsu, when he FTGed Kurama's TBB, and for Reaper Death Seal.

        Loading editor
    • @Legion

      It's not reaction when you know exactly what your opponent is gonna do, plan a counter and time it perfectly. Knowing is half the battle.

      The second instance, Minato needed to confirm his hypothesis. He needed confirmation to determine when to strike.

      Flinging projectiles while Obito phases through all the time is effective? No. Minato needed to land a physical hit to win. So, he needed to figure out when/if Obito would solidify and work around that. Minato wouldn't learn about that by just throwing projectiles.

      Minato prefers to use hand-signs when not in combat. 4SWW? Minato weaved a sign for shadow clone outside of combat, which he then teleported for FTG slash. FTG Kuama's TBB? Good point there, although Minato did not actually engage Kurama yet, so is that really combat? Reaper Death Seal? Kurama was already restrained then, so not combat.

      LOL, I think we went off topic here. Back on topic now?

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero, Those hand sign instances you sighted can be debunked because I can simply argue the signs were too fast to be seen just like you are claiming, and just like I already said in my previous. The writer doesn't always show them for cinematic purposes unless it's needed for the plot. Kakashi can follow kakazu's signs and we see a snapshot of kakazu's seal so that the reader can see Domu requires earth style seals. In the sasuke vs deidara instance, sasuke could have easily placed his sword in his armpit before casting the seals. Sasuke could have moved his hand and then placed it back on the ground. Killer bee wasn't stated to require handsigns for his lightning release technique though. Lol no, in a boxing or karate match victory is on the line. The fighters don't always use their top speed because that's not how a fight works. They close the distance between each other, or run away to avoid dangerous combos, but other than that, the emphasis is mostly on combat speed.

      Obito kept up in combat speed due to sharingan, incredible reflexes, and kamui, and knowledge on minato's abilities, nothing more nothing less. Nothing says he was as fast in running speed. FTG level 2 is minato's fastest attack. The kunai was directly above obito. FTG is instant. All minato had to do was slightly adjust his arm and then obito was easily tagged by his rasengan. Minato's top running speed is slower than his FTG. As Ninja of War already explained, it's impossible for minato to have analyzed kamui the first time aroundbecause he was clearly suprised by it. He simply observed, and that was the begininning of his analysis During round 2, Minato was analyzing kamui and obito's fighting style. The proof is on Chapter 502 pg 13, Minato confirms obito's fighting style and he is confident in how kamui works enough to reveal his FTG level 2 trump card. Refer to that user's post, because they explained it perfectly. There is no guarantee obito wouldn't sense minato's top running speed.. We have seen obito reacting to attacks coming into his blindspots multiple times, he clearly has good situational awareness and he has two ears to hear objects coming near him. The second he hears something sus he can phase in an instant. It would be stupid for minato to use his regular running speed to combat such an ability, which is why the second he understood how obito operates, he used FTG level 2 to guarantee he tags obito.

      Lmao what? OBito wasn't screwing around. Project Tsykuyomi was on the line. Chapter 595 pg 10, Obito says to Guy "I'll start with you". Guy stalemated him in CQC, fair and square. Obito wasn't zipping around him because he is not as fast as you think he is. Why throw shurikens at him when he can rofl blitz guy according to you on Chapter 595 pg 9. Let Guy come in close then run a circle around him into his blindspot and warp him away. Obito was stated to be capable of defeating anyone of them with a single touch lmao. Even if Obito is significantly faster than guy, The characters don't always use their top speed. Therefore you don't have any solid evidence that obito is as fast minato. In fact, the fact that obito is always impressed by minato's bodyflicker (such as when minato rescued naruto before obito can stab the baby naruto, minato using his body flicker after warping to kushina and running on top of a nearby tree to avoid kurama's palm) would suggest he isn't as fast as minato.

      So you concede that naruto doesn't always use his top speed in a serious battle. He felt the combination attack with sasuke was worth more than using his top speed, which is the whole point. You can't just say that the characters always use their top speed 24/7 unless you can be sure of their mindset and all the other variables involved, aka PHYSICS and TUNNEL VISION.

      Lol no, who cares that the other jins can see him. The point is, if kcm naruto uses his top speed, roshi can't react to him, and neither can any of the other jins. It doesn't matter that they have shared vision. the characters don't always use their top speed. We see naruto using his top speed to slap away bijuu damas that would have vaporized both guy and kakashi. he used his top speed there because bijuu damas can't "counter attack" like people can, so there was no risk, and when he uses that speed the characters always compare his running speed to the yellow flash's running speed.

      Lol, even after killer bee cleared the forest, naruto wasn't seen using his top speed. We see him opting to block attacks instead of "running circles" like you are claiming would happen if there is a huge speed difference. Like I said, be consistent. Either concede he doesn't always use his top speed or then you are arguing all those V2 jins are as fast as kcm naruto, and by extension, 6 gates guy is as fast as kakashi and they are both as fast as kcm naruto.

      Lol. obito wasn't running circles against Fuu and torune, therefore by your logic Fuu and torune are as fast as minato lmao. Obito punked them by doing what he always does, phase through attacks, and then materializing to counter attack. He sneaked up on insect boy from behind and warped him away. He used a feint to disract mind transfer boy and then warped him away by coming out of the ground.

      Also, not how tunnel vision works. When running, objects in front of you get bigger as you get closer but your peripheral vision gets weaker the faster you run and the longer you run for at that speed the harder it is to see stuff right in front of you. The sharingan increases visual acuity. Raiton armor increases your reflexes, which means your synapses are processing visual information more efficently, also sage mode presumably increases danger sensing, so even if you can't see the attack it's easier for you to be aware that a counter attack is coming. Minato is a literal speed demon. Even for his reflexes, running at his absolute top speed would still cause tunnel vision, because he lacks a sharingan, raiton armor, or sage mode danger sensing. Minato would only risk that if he confident his opponent wouldn't be able to react effectively, and if his opponent blocks it, that isn't too bad because then it becomes a battle of taijutsu skill and combat speed. but if they actually counter attack him, he could be dead. There is no reason for him to risk that against an oppponet he knows can phase, and all that's waiting for minato are chains ready to grab him so that obito can warp him away.

      Minato vs raikage and bee? When did minato ever use his running speed in that fight lol? He used FTG the whole time. V1 ayy wasn't necesaarily using his top speed against sasuke there, so debunked.

      Obito vs kabuto Chapter 489 pg 18-19. Where is obito's yellow flash speed? With that speed he would be able to blitz base kabuto with ease since according to you the characters use their top speed to blitz always. kabuto wouldn't have even had time to weave a single hand seal with that speed coming at him.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Legion

      It's not reaction when you know exactly what your opponent is gonna do, plan a counter and time it perfectly. Knowing is half the battle.

      When/where was it stated that Obito planned on wasting time by having Minato take a swing at him while he snuck up behind him to warp him away with Kamui? When has Obito EVER made it a part of his plan to get cought sneaking up behind an enemy to warp them away?

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      The second instance, Minato needed to confirm his hypothesis. He needed confirmation to determine when to strike.

      And he could have done so by throwing a kunai or using a shadow clone instead of putting humself in unnecessary danger.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Flinging projectiles while Obito phases through all the time is effective? No. Minato needed to land a physical hit to win. So, he needed to figure out when/if Obito would solidify and work around that. Minato wouldn't learn about that by just throwing projectiles.

      Shadow clone.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Minato prefers to use hand-signs when not in combat. 4SWW? Minato weaved a sign for shadow clone outside of combat, which he then teleported for FTG slash.

      It was war. They were in the middle of the battlefield and made a shadow clone to take part in combat. He wasnt in the middle of a fight but Minato had time to cast a shadow clone to test Obito since they werent engaging in hand-to-hand.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      FTG Kuama's TBB? Good point there, although Minato did not actually engage Kurama yet, so is that really combat?

      Really? Minato making the 1st move to confront Kurama and his attack isnt engaging him?

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Reaper Death Seal? Kurama was already restrained then, so not combat.

      Tell that to the fatal injury he sustained 5 seconds after casting it. The battle wasnt over since Kushina was barely concsious and struggling to hold Kurama back.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      LOL, I think we went off topic here. Back on topic now?

      O yes. Kakashi called Chidori fast and Minato says it makes him fast in chapter 240 so that should be the end of the discussion.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero, Those hand sign instances you sighted can be debunked because I can simply argue the signs were too fast to be seen just like you are claiming, and just like I already said in my previous. The writer doesn't always show them for cinematic purposes unless it's needed for the plot.

      Absolutely not. If it wasnt stated/shown to have happened then it didnt happen.

      The manga has shown that a user can reduce or even eliminate the need for hand signs for a technique if they are skilled enough in using it.

      It has also shown that characters who are low on chakra need hand signs to perform jutsu they otherwise wouldnt need signs for.

      There are very few times in the series where no signs are shown without a character explaining they are just super fast at it.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      In the sasuke vs deidara instance, sasuke could have easily placed his sword in his armpit before casting the seals. Sasuke could have moved his hand and then placed it back on the ground. Killer bee wasn't stated to require handsigns for his lightning release technique though.

      So Sasuke went from a vulnerable position to upright so that he could weave signs so that he could lay back down in a vulnerable position to activate Chidori to get back upright to flow it into the sword while Bee who was already shown to be faster than Sasuke was cutting through said sword to kill him.... right....

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Obito kept up in combat speed due to sharingan, incredible reflexes, and kamui, and knowledge on minato's abilities, nothing more nothing less. Nothing says he was as fast in running speed.

      You say nothing more nothing less but Obito was able to tag Minato using combat speed twice and Minato wasnt shown to move faster than Obito at any point in the fight.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      As Ninja of War already explained, it's impossible for minato to have analyzed kamui the first time aroundbecause he was clearly suprised by it. He simply observed, and that was the begininning of his analysis.

      Simply observed? His breakdown was literally written on the page. If Kakashi can figure out Domu after one look and figure out what he needs to do to beat it then Minato can do the same.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      During round 2, Minato was analyzing kamui and obito's fighting style. The proof is on Chapter 502 pg 13, Minato confirms obito's fighting style and he is confident in how kamui works enough to reveal his FTG level 2 trump card.

      If round 2 was about analysis he wouldnt have rushed in himself and then let himself get cought in the chains. He has at least 3 safer and even more effective options if his goal was just analysis.

      He thought he was fast enough to get the kill and he was wrong.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lmao what? OBito wasn't screwing around. Project Tsykuyomi was on the line.

      Obito was screwing around. He was also fighting all 4 of them for next like, 8 chapters with 0 struggle. Even if his plan was "on the line", he was fighting the strongest the Alliance had to offer and he was handling them all by himself with little effort.

      Ch 473 p 3: after Seeing Naruto use TBB and TBM, Obito states than Naruto is nothing more than a pawn to him and that he knows the limits of his power and that he wouldnt break a sweat against him.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Chapter 595 pg 10, Obito says to Guy "I'll start with you". Guy stalemated him in CQC, fair and square.

      Stalemate? Guy got one good counter in before Naruto intervened.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Obito wasn't zipping around him because he is not as fast as you think he is. Why throw shurikens at him when he can rofl blitz guy according to you on Chapter 595 pg 9.

      Because he needed to put a bit of distance between himself and Naruto who was holding a mini-TBB right behind him. He was also mid-air.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Let Guy come in close then run a circle around him into his blindspot and warp him away.

      Because Naruto was right there with a mini-TBB

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Obito was stated to be capable of defeating anyone of them with a single touch lmao. Even if Obito is significantly faster than guy, The characters don't always use their top speed.

      You keep referring to this like its a 1-v-1 but Obito has to make sure hes not leaving himself open to an attack from 3 other characters.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      In fact, the fact that obito is always impressed by minato's bodyflicker (such as when minato rescued naruto before obito can stab the baby naruto, minato using his body flicker after warping to kushina and running on top of a nearby tree to avoid kurama's palm) would suggest he isn't as fast as minato.

      Being impressed=/=inferiority. If so, then Sasuke surpassed Kakashi in the bell test and surpassed Guy in the Chunnin exams.

      Minato rescued Kushina from Kurama and impressed Obito but could body flicker before getting hit by Obito's chain. HMMMMM

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      So you concede that naruto doesn't always use his top speed in a serious battle. He felt the combination attack with sasuke was worth more than using his top speed, which is the whole point. You can't just say that the characters always use their top speed 24/7 unless you can be sure of their mindset and all the other variables involved, aka PHYSICS and TUNNEL VISION.

      I dont understand this argument. So because Naruto had to lower his speed in this specific instance in order to cooporate and strategize with a character who is slower than him against an enemy with almost totally unknown powrrs means that Minato who had already seen Obito's abilities wasnt using his top speed?

      Worst decontextualization i have seen all month.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol no, who cares that the other jins can see him. The point is, if kcm naruto uses his top speed, roshi can't react to him, and neither can any of the other jins. It doesn't matter that they have shared vision. the characters don't always use their top speed.

      Clearly not. He showed no problem dodging and countering them 1-on-1 but when they ganged up on him he got rocked.

      Even Minato got tagged by Bee because Bee took advantage of his outside perspective and being out of Minato's line of sight so dont even act like speed is enough to handle multiple opponents under the circumstances Naruto was presented with.

      Kaguya got tagged by Sakura of all people because she got ganged up on by characters who were all slower than her.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      We see naruto using his top speed to slap away bijuu damas that would have vaporized both guy and kakashi. he used his top speed there because bijuu damas can't "counter attack" like people can, so there was no risk, and when he uses that speed the characters always compare his running speed to the yellow flash's running speed.

      There were only 7 characters who could have attacked him in that moment but whatever.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol, even after killer bee cleared the forest, naruto wasn't seen using his top speed. We see him opting to block attacks instead of "running circles" like you are claiming would happen if there is a huge speed difference. Like I said, be consistent. Either concede he doesn't always use his top speed or then you are arguing all those V2 jins are as fast as kcm naruto, and by extension, 6 gates guy is as fast as kakashi and they are both as fast as kcm naruto.

      I suggest you read that again. The 1st thing that happened after clearly in the forest was Narutogetting knocked off balance then smacked around before he could regain his footing.

      Then Obito comments about how 2-v-6 was too much of a disadvantage for Naruto and Bee. The manga right here confirms it wasnt the stats that put Naruto at a disadvantage.

      I really dont know why Guy you bringing up Guy and Kakashi's speed here..

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol. obito wasn't running circles against Fuu and torune, therefore by your logic Fuu and torune are as fast as minato lmao. Obito punked them by doing what he always does, phase through attacks, and then materializing to counter attack. He sneaked up on insect boy from behind and warped him away. He used a feint to disract mind transfer boy and then warped him away by coming out of the ground.

      Why would he need to run circles around them?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Also, not how tunnel vision works.

      Apparently thats how it works in Naruto considering characters who have achieved their speed through training can reach speeds far above real life human perceptions and be just fine.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Minato is a literal speed demon. Even for his reflexes, running at his absolute top speed would still cause tunnel vision,

      Until the manga states that he has this problem then this is your headcanon.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:


      Minato vs raikage and bee? When did minato ever use his running speed in that fight lol? He used FTG the whole time.

      I didnt say he used his running speed. My point i was trying to make was that he did t know anything about their abilities and went straight for kills/checkmates. No reason to believe it was different after he had already seen Obito's phasing ability, especially since he went in for an attack himself rather than using safer, more effective methods to test/analyze/observe/guage Obito.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      V1 ayy wasn't necesaarily using his top speed against sasuke there, so debunked.

      Then he wouldnt have bothered using V2...

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Obito vs kabuto Chapter 489 pg 18-19. Where is obito's yellow flash speed? With that speed he would be able to blitz base kabuto with ease since according to you the characters use their top speed to blitz always. kabuto wouldn't have even had time to weave a single hand seal with that speed coming at him.

      That wasnt a fight. Obito was shown to have traveled much further than Kabuto had so we already know he is faster. He didnt know about Kabuto's upgrades so its very likely he underestimated him and once Kabuto started using Edo Tensei, killing him would have been a bad idea.

        Loading editor
    • True, Obito's good but he's not 'taking on a literal army of reanimated ninja that also includes Madara Uchiha' good.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      When/where was it stated that Obito planned on wasting time by having Minato take a swing at him while he snuck up behind him to warp him away with Kamui? When has Obito EVER made it a part of his plan to get cought sneaking up behind an enemy to warp them away?

      You can't seg-way out of Obito's preferred method of combat. Obito didn't waste time, he counterattacked at the correct moment.

      LegionZero wrote:

      And he could have done so by throwing a kunai or using a shadow clone instead of putting humself in unnecessary danger.

      How though? Obito wouldn't fight the clone, he would just remain intangible. Also, not in character for Minato.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Shadow clone.

      Not in character for Minato.

      LegionZero wrote:

      It was war. They were in the middle of the battlefield and made a shadow clone to take part in combat. He wasnt in the middle of a fight but Minato had time to cast a shadow clone to test Obito since they werent engaging in hand-to-hand.

      Still not combat. Minato and the other hokage erected a barrier to contain the ten-tails, Minato himself was outside the barrier. He was definitely not in combat. Had time to cast the clone? Of course he did, Obito was far away, while his sealing jutsu was taking time to cast. Lol, don't understand, don't think you have a point here.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Really? Minato making the 1st move to confront Kurama and his attack isnt engaging him?

      No, Kurama fired a TTB at Minato, that was the first move lol. Also, Minato didn't confront Kurama, he warped the TBB away from the village, how is that engaging him??

      LegionZero wrote:

      Tell that to the fatal injury he sustained 5 seconds after casting it. The battle wasnt over since Kushina was barely concsious and struggling to hold Kurama back.

      Sigh. Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Kurama was restrained, Kurama decreased in size, chains loosened, Kushina and Minato protected Naruto. Kurama didn't break free, he could just move a little better. LoL, "the battle wasn't over because Kushina was dying from tailed beast extraction", what kind of argument is that??

      LegionZero wrote:

      O yes. Kakashi called Chidori fast and Minato says it makes him fast in chapter 240 so that should be the end of the discussion.

      ch240, Minato calls kakashi's movements fast. So yeah, let's end it there.

        Loading editor
    • I somehow doubt this is going to end here but it's good to have dreams.

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero

      I have already shown you a manga panel with Kakazu activating Doton:Domu without any handsigns, despite the fact that later on in the same chapter, we get to see his handseals when it's necessary for the plot. Not seeing handsigns =/= them not being cast. It's true that skill can reduce the amount of handseals required for a technique but that doesn't necessarily mean that the technique requires zero hand signs. Sasuke could have easily weaved signs on the ground while killer bee was cutting through suigetsu's sword. Further proof? When have you ever seen deidara weaving hand seals for his bombs other than those two fingers he puts up to detonate them? never, except for one occasion : when we get to see his earth style seals when sasuke tracks them with the sharingan. Hand seals are only focused on when it's necessary for the plot is my point.

      Lol, guy and kakashi were keeping up with those same V2 jinchuriki, so guy and kakashi are as fast as kcm naruto following the logic you used for obito. You have to be consistent. Naruto got tagged on 566 pg 16. he failed to run circles therefore that V2 jinchurki is the same speed as him by your logic. Naruto opted to block an attack, proving that he doesn't always use his yellow flash speed in battle.

      Lol no, my point is that you keep going on about how the characters always use their top speed but it's been debunked. Naruto didn't use his top speed against juubito. His combination attack with sasuke took priority. The characters choose when to and when not to use their top speed depending on the circumstances.

      Lol no, naruto slapped the bijuu dama away, there was no counter attack for the bijuu to make. They weren't close enough to a make a counter attack. The danger of the counter attack happens in close range/taijutsu range.

      Lol no, guy chased obito down and naruto let guy fight obito by himself. Obito had time to run a circle around guy and warp him away going by your logic. That wasn't even the only time. He had another chance to do when he was warping guy's numchunks away. Guy stalemated obito in CQC, and obito wasn't shown to be faster than guy, therefore they are the same speed. Don't you see the problem with that logic?

      The point is, I understand Obito is incredibly strong, but he is not yellow flash levels of speed. He is so strong because of combat speed and kamui, not running speed lol. Minato's actual combat speed isn't as fast as his running speed.

      Lol no, Obito with his purported yellow flash speed would have been able to bitz kabuto before he finished his hand seal in the first place.

      You still ignore context for the Minato vs obito. Minato was analyzing obito's fighting style, not just kamui. He needed to ensure he ended the fight in a single clash. What happens when his FTG level :2 rasengan misses because he fails to analyze obito properly? Then obito sees through it, and now the fight will drag out. You play your trump card when you are confident your opponent won't adapt.


      Minato wouldn't use a shadow clone. One, chakra reserves, two, he has to fight the nine tails afterward, and he barely managed to seal half the nine tails chakra away with the death reaper seal. Minato also needed to expend an incredible amount of chakra summoning gamabunta, and then teleporting nine tails away. If he made a shadow clone vs obito he is risking his ability to subdue the ninetail.

      Lol, what headcanon? Rock lee clearly states a beeline attack is easy to counter, and that running at an incredible speed makes it hard to see your opponent's counter attack without the "eye". Minato is no exception. He didn't use his top speed against obito because :1) tunnel vison, 2) obito would still be able to react and phase 3), there are nice handy dandy chains waiting for minato once he phases through obito, and 4) he is analyzing obito's fighting style carefully, he wanted to learn when obito becomes solid with certainty. Seeing something once is not enough to deduce that. you need to see a pattern. With Obito, the same exact thing happened twice, so minato was confident it would happen a third time once he baited obito into materializing. My point about obito vs Fuu and Torune is that when obito fights the yellow flash, you say with confidence obito is as fast as minato because they weren't running circles around each other, but now when it's Fuu and Torune they aren't as fast as obito and minato ? lol, it's clear that obito isn't as fast as minato, and even if he was even remotely as fast, the characters don't always use their top speed is the point.

      The reason Ayy went V2 was clearly because he felt he needed that speed to evade amaterasu. He had the intel on amaterasu presumably from intel reports, so he figured sasuke would try to use it on him with the MS. Notice how Ayy didn't make a move until amaterasu was unleashed. After that he used his speed to close the distance, but clearly Sasuke could still react to him. V1 Ayy isn't as fast as sasuke just because they both charged at each other, it's been debunked. The characters don't always use their top speed lol. Base killer bee and even v1 killer bee is way faster than sasuke, so it's highly unlikely that sasuke is anywhere near ayy's top v1 speed. Sasuke only matched them in combat speed.

      Furthermore, you are still not understanding that while all attacks benefit from speed, chidori is a piercing move and as such momentum generated from running at extreme speeds makes the move's potency increase tremendously. Rasengan doesn't need those speeds because the sphere itself detonates on contact and grinds into the opponent.

        Loading editor
    • This page is two months old.

        Loading editor
    • Raikiri/Chidori causes a bit of tunnel vision due to the necessary speed involved. Without the perception powers of the Sharingan, it’s too easy for Kakashi to get counter-attacked. In short, he lacks the perception powers and reaction time to safely use his technique without the Sharingan.

      The Fourth Raikage uses Lightning Chakra to speed up his reaction time by making his nervous system respond faster and his brain process information faster. On top of simply being very fast movement-wise, he REACTS very quickly. He also does not use the Raikiri/Chidori. He just shrouds himself in Lightning Chakra and uses hand-to-hand combat maneuvers. A Chidori and a Lariat have the same basic principle, it utilises Lightening nature chakra to concentrate it on the hand, with minimum shape transformation. This is seen as the electric discharge on the hand, which is then used to stab the opponent. Chidori users don’t need to worry about this as long as they have Sharingan, and their body doesn’t need to be unnaturally fast, just fast enough to make it effective.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      O yes. Kakashi called Chidori fast and Minato says it makes him fast in chapter 240 so that should be the end of the discussion.

      ch240, Minato calls kakashi's movements fast. So yeah, let's end it there. </div> Official translation Minato says Chidori makes him fast and Kakashi says the Chidori is fast.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero

      I have already shown you a manga panel with Kakazu activating Doton:Domu without any handsigns, despite the fact that later on in the same chapter, we get to see his handseals when it's necessary for the plot. Not seeing handsigns =/= them not being cast. It's true that skill can reduce the amount of handseals required for a technique but that doesn't necessarily mean that the technique requires zero hand signs. Sasuke could have easily weaved signs on the ground while killer bee was cutting through suigetsu's sword.

      After providing numerous cases in the manga where characters were explicitly not shown using signs to perform certain techniques and you are applying situations that were confirmed by the manga to be speed signing and applying them to situations where it is improbable and nonsensical to impossible.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Further proof? When have you ever seen deidara weaving hand seals for his bombs other than those two fingers he puts up to detonate them? never, except for one occasion : when we get to see his earth style seals when sasuke tracks them with the sharingan. Hand seals are only focused on when it's necessary for the plot is my point.

      Holy hell. He was creating clones and blowing shit up with NO ARMS. This legit shouldnt be a discussion any more after that point.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol, guy and kakashi were keeping up with those same V2 jinchuriki, so guy and kakashi are as fast as kcm naruto following the logic you used for obito. You have to be consistent. Naruto got tagged on 566 pg 16. he failed to run circles therefore that V2 jinchurki is the same speed as him by your logic. Naruto opted to block an attack, proving that he doesn't always use his yellow flash speed in battle.

      Stop putting words on my mouth. I never said the Edo-jin were as fast as Naruto. Their connected vision+coordinated attacks+Sharingan were enough to make up for the speed difference.

      There were no scenes that showed running speed comparisons between Kakash/Guy and the Edo-Jin soooooo dont even bring this one one up again.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol no, my point is that you keep going on about how the characters always use their top speed but it's been debunked. Naruto didn't use his top speed against juubito. His combination attack with sasuke took priority. The characters choose when to and when not to use their top speed depending on the circumstances.

      Please stop applying the context of this situation to others with differrnt contexts

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol no, naruto slapped the bijuu dama away, there was no counter attack for the bijuu to make. They weren't close enough to a make a counter attack. The danger of the counter attack happens in close range/taijutsu range.

      Fireballs. Acid spit. Coral attacks. Bubble attacks. Lava attacks.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol no, guy chased obito down and naruto let guy fight obito by himself. Obito had time to run a circle around guy and warp him away going by your logic.

      When was he supposed to do that? When he was creating distance between himself and Naruto? Or when he was midair? Or when Naruto attacked him with a Mini TBB while still midair?

      Actually read chapter and you would realize that Naruto could have hit him if he tried warping Guy away.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      That wasn't even the only time. He had another chance to do when he was warping guy's numchunks away. Guy stalemated obito in CQC, and obito wasn't shown to be faster than guy, therefore they are the same speed. Don't you see the problem with that logic?

      Stalemate? Because Obito had to stop warping Guy to not get hit dead on with a Rasengan? Obito showed the combat speed to read Guys movements and catch his nunchucks with 0 effort

      Again, stop treating this like its a 1v1, because in this very scene Guy would have lost. If not for Naruto intervening.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      The point is, I understand Obito is incredibly strong, but he is not yellow flash levels of speed. He is so strong because of combat speed and kamui, not running speed lol. Minato's actual combat speed isn't as fast as his running speed.

      Tell that to 595 when Naruto was running for his life and Obito kept pace.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol no, Obito with his purported yellow flash speed would have been able to bitz kabuto before he finished his hand seal in the first place.

      Again, Obito clearly underestimated him. Obito was shown to be faster than Kabuto already but seeing as how Obito was still mid air by the time Kabuto hit the ground i dont know how you expect Obito to go at him faster

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      You still ignore context for the Minato vs obito. Minato was analyzing obito's fighting style, not just kamui. He needed to ensure he ended the fight in a single clash. What happens when his FTG level :2 rasengan misses because he fails to analyze obito properly? Then obito sees through it, and now the fight will drag out. You play your trump card when you are confident your opponent won't adapt.

      Context for Minato. Finish the fight ASAP to stop the strongest tailed beast from destroying the village

      Context for Obito: finish the fight ASAP to get away with Kurama

      Minato already analyzed Obito's abilities in their short encounter before the one where he got cought with the chain. You can read the pages where he breaks it down.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Minato wouldn't use a shadow clone. One, chakra reserves,

      He has plenty of chakra.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      two, he has to fight the nine tails afterward, and he barely managed to seal half the nine tails chakra away with the death reaper seal. Minato also needed to expend an incredible amount of chakra summoning gamabunta, and then teleporting nine tails away. If he made a shadow clone vs obito he is risking his ability to subdue the ninetail.

      Had he used a shadow clone he would have been able to see Obito's counter, FTG the clone out, and tag team Obito, disperse the clone and get that chakra back.

      Minato used FTG lvl 2 because he couldnt hit Obito otherwise, not because he was sure it would work. Read the manga and doesnt even think to himself that he can do it for a fact.

      But if you want to think that the chances of defending the village increase by Minato charging head first at a guy that he knows can turn intangible and solidify with enough reaction time counter him for the sake of analyzing the opponent then idk what to tell you. He didnt even learn anything new and is lucky Obito didnt know/use any lightning jutsu with his chains.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Lol, what headcanon? Rock lee clearly states a beeline attack is easy to counter, and that running at an incredible speed makes it hard to see your opponent's counter attack without the "eye".

      No one ever said this applied to Minato. It was never stated to apply to anyone besides characters who jave unnatural speed boosts.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Minato is no exception.

      0 evidence.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      He didn't use his top speed against obito because :1) tunnel vison,

      Again, no evidence that this is a problem for anyone but those with unnatural speed boosts

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      2) obito would still be able to react and phase

      0 evidence of this.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      3), there are nice handy dandy chains waiting for minato once he phases through obito

      Wait, wait, wait. So the chains are a problem if countered at full speed, but not a problem if countered at less than full speed? I cant even....

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      and 4) he is analyzing obito's fighting style carefully, he wanted to learn when obito becomes solid with certainty. Seeing something once is not enough to deduce that. you need to see a pattern. With Obito, the same exact thing happened twice, so minato was confident it would happen a third time once he baited obito into materializing.

      Kakashi broke down Pains techniques after seeing them once. And he used a Lightning clone+2 lightning Jutsu. Minato has a less chakra taxing main offensive jutsu and can keep his clone safe with FTG.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      My point about obito vs Fuu and Torune is that when obito fights the yellow flash, you say with confidence obito is as fast as minato because they weren't running circles around each other, but now when it's Fuu and Torune they aren't as fast as obito and minato ? lol, it's clear that obito isn't as fast as minato, and even if he was even remotely as fast, the characters don't always use their top speed is the point.

      This would be a somewhat decen argument if Obito didnt stand around the whole time.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      The reason Ayy went V2 was clearly because he felt he needed that speed to evade amaterasu.

      Notice how A didnt activate V2 from the start.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      He had the intel on amaterasu presumably from intel reports, so he figured sasuke would try to use it on him with the MS. Notice how Ayy didn't make a move until amaterasu was unleashed. After that he used his speed to close the distance, but clearly Sasuke could still react to him.

      So Sasuke can react to V2 "cant possibly" be as fast as V1?

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      V1 Ayy isn't as fast as sasuke just because they both charged at each other, it's been debunked.

      If Sasuke wasnt as fast as V1 A then V1 A would have taken him out. They charged at eachother with dashing attacks, Sasuke dodged and countered. A tried CQC, Sasuke countered.

      A was out for Sasuke's blood so i dont believe for a second that he was holding back V1's speed after seeing Taka's speed prior. To his confrontation with Sasuke.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Base killer bee and even v1 killer bee is way faster

      Debatable about base Bee. Base Be didnt land any hits until he attacked with multiple weapons at the same time.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Furthermore, you are still not understanding that while all attacks benefit from speed, chidori is a piercing move and as such momentum generated from running at extreme speeds makes the move's potency increase tremendously. Rasengan doesn't need those speeds because the sphere itself detonates on contact and grinds into the opponent.

      You are not understanding that no official information corroborates what you are saying and the manga shows multiple times that the speed doesnt contribute to its peircing potential.

        Loading editor
    • like I said, PLOT. In chapter 276 pg 17 Deidara himself says he can't cast any techniques because he lost his arms. Yet he is able to do substitution+ clay clone, exploding clone, and hiding like a mole. Blatant plot armor/inconsistency. The hand seals are only focused on when the plot needs it.

      Minato very clearly expressed concern about chakra when he was warping the nine tails away, so why would splitting his chakra in half beforehand be a good idea?

      Lol,If naruto tried to hit him with the bijuu dama from behind, all Obito has to do is predict it and phase through it, and guess what, Might guy dies to friendly fire lmao. Obito did that same feat against Fuu and Torune. So if Obito was as fast as you claimed he would have ran a circle around guy, pretend to try to warp him away, baiting naruto into attacking him, then bijuu dama phases through and hits might guy. Poor might guy dies, now obito can move back to attacking naruto, while naruto is in emotional discord from accidentally killing bushy brow sensei... Obito isn't as fast as you are claiming. KCM Naruto and Ayy were the fastest shinobi alive in terms of running speed before Minato , Tobirama, and six paths characters came into play.

      And lol no, Naruto's goal wasn't to retreat from the battle. He was trying to keep a safe distance in that instance with the rocks because one touch=death. Obito only tagged him by cunningly phasing the gunbai through a rock, which caused naruto to only see the gunbai at the last second, allowing obito to restrain him once he blocked it. That was a feat of cunning and combat speed, not running speed lol. Naruto wasn't using his top running speed there.

      I keep telling you the characters very obviously don't always use their top speed in the midst of battle. Killer Bee, while electrocuted, moved so fast that Jugo didn't even notice that he moved. Killer Bee used his top speed in base to escape, and Taka was forced to use Karin's sensing abilities to find him. Killer bee is objectively faster than sasuke and everyone on his crew. In a sword fight, you use your running speed to control the distance, and then the fight is about combat speed/skill. He is facing someone with the sharingan, and yet still outmanuevered and tagged sasuke multiple times, but that has nothing to do with running speed.


      Lol, like I said, we gotta talk about physics smh... It isn't Kishimoto's job to spoonfeed us details that should be common knowledge. A Piercing move benefits from added momentum even more so than other attacks because force is required to ensure the penetration is clean. Chidori =/= rasengan which is a dense rotating sphere of energy waiting to grind and then explode into it's target on it's own, chidori is simply a more powerful knife. Look back to the water tower scene betwen naruto and sasuke in part one. Then look back to when kakashi was a kid. His goal was to kill multiple opponents at once in an "instant". running at your top speed ensures the chidori gets the most momentum and force to aid it's raiton properties in piercing through and instantly kill the target, with the additional point that hopefully your opponent won't be able to react to a loud (sound of 1000 birds) and easy to see beeline attack. It's an assasination technique. Some characters in naruto have an ultimate defense (like gaara) or wear body armor, which would be harder to penetrate using a knife like stabbing attack. Even with his absolute top rock lee speed, Sasuke could only manage a cut on Gaara's shoulder through Gaara's ultimate defense. If he tried doing that without running first, chidori wouldn't have even penetrated the sand sphere at all.

      Rock lee already proved that running at your top speed without the "eye" causes tunnel vision. Guy also stated sasuke was trained to rock lee levels of speed in preparation for the use of chidori.

      My point about kcm naruto not running circles around the jinchuriki once the forest was destroyed still stands. when naruto uses his top speed, the characters make it abundantly clear. When he used his top speed to chase after kisame, kisame got blitzed, he was called the yellow flash, but naruto's foot got stuck in the ground, showing naruto's inexperience with using his newly found speed. When ayy used his absolute top speed, naruto was forced to use his absolute top speed to evade the attack. If naruto used his top speed24/7 then V1 Ayy wouldn't have been able to intercept him, period. Running at your top speed causes tunnel vision, and the faster you run the more time it takes to slow down. deceleration isn't instant. If naruto used his bamflash speed and gets counter attacked, he can likely sense it due to his malice sensing but his body is still off-balance from the extreme speed. In those precious seconds, a well timed attack can hit him while he is on the deceleration.

      So given that, why would Minato run at his top bamflash speed straight into a chain? The faster he runs, the more momentum he has , the more force he has, and Newton's third law still is in play. if those chains hit him in the neck while he ran at such speeds he would be dead. Minato isn't an idiot, so he ran at a moderate speed once obito charged at him, and then analyzed obito's fighting style further. Minato's thought bubbles after that debunk your claim.

      Here is the finale. The real reason Minato banned the technique is because the technique is designed to be used when the caster is running at high speeds. Hokage kakashi has lost his sharingan, so he cannot run at his top speed anymore with the jutsu. If you use the raikiri while standing still in CQC, that is also not worth the chakra cost when it requires handsigns (I'm ignoring plot armor here) and a kunai can serve the same function in most situations and it's easier to simply deflect kakashi's attack. kakashi uses the raikiri in situations where the rasengan is the better choice because of his personality, and because of the raiton chakra it can still kill people in close quarters combat but the penetrative force is not as devastating that way.

        Loading editor
    • So Kakashi chose not to use Rasengan even if it's the better choice because...personality?

        Loading editor
    • Starscream1998 wrote: So Kakashi chose not to use Rasengan even if it's the better choice because...personality?

      It better suits his fighting style. Its the same (non Meta) reason he doesn't always use his giant arsenal of Jutsu.

        Loading editor
    • True, that and the fact Kishi probably intentionally needed to nerf the guy because copying over 1000 jutsu is a bit ridiculous.

        Loading editor
    • Littlegen wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: So Kakashi chose not to use Rasengan even if it's the better choice because...personality?

      It better suits his fighting style. Its the same (non Meta) reason he doesn't always use his giant arsenal of Jutsu.

      Not really. Rasengan would suit him better in every way. Less chakra drain, self sustaining, less charge time, etc etc. after he got the Sharingan he decided to build a moveset around Chidori. the only reason i can think of that he doesnt use Rasengan as a main is because the level he mastered it at he couldnt expand on it the same way he did with Chidori. at that point in the Narutoverse, Rasengan was the limit of the technique

      Starscream1998 wrote: True, that and the fact Kishi probably intentionally needed to nerf the guy because copying over 1000 jutsu is a bit ridiculous.

      He didnt nerf him, he just never showed it. like, Kakashi picked up Kubikiribocho and was all like, "ima go buck wild in this bitch" and Kishimoto never showed us the beatdown he laid on the other Mist Swordsman

        Loading editor
    • Hey I'm not saying Kakashi doesn't have his moments all I'm saying is if I had 1000 jutsu I'd probably be a bit more liberal with using them.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message