FANDOM


  • Hello! I'm Isaac, and I'm representing FANDOM's Community Technical team. We help communities adopt to new technologies and features, like content portability. Narutopedia is a high priority for introducing Portable Infobox templates, which have a lot of benefits for your community; we've recently taken some time to develop some infrastructure (namely bridging high-performance Lua with SemanticMediaWiki) to make a serious performance upgrade that's also more simple to manage.

    Narutopedia experiences millions of pageviews per week, with 75% of those visits from mobile devices. Portable Infoboxes help your articles to be accessed from any device and the flow of your traffic is as important as it ever was. I'd like to reproduce as much as possible the look and feel of your desktop infoboxes in global CSS, and will update the Infobox templates themselves (initially as Drafts for you to approve or ask for changes to) so that they can be accessible on any current and future platform. Maintaining them if you want to make changes should be very simple, and we have extensive documentation on how to modify Portable Infoboxes in the help pages or on the Portability Hub. Whether you choose to go with Portable Infoboxes or not, the Lua functions will still improve your page performance without lots of nesting template code and functions; they are designed to eliminate calls to helper templates, so you'll see less reliance on calling the server for incremental processing.

    Improved mobile clarity is not the only reason why we'd like to introduce these; we're looking at all kinds of emerging devices. The Mercury skin and engine let us target all these devices, and the experience is centered around PIs as the focal point. The PIs also improve desktop performance, as the language is built for the server to produce them lightning fast. On mobile, the experience of infoboxes (when they aren't interpreted and stripped of other styling, as with non-portable code) goes from "looks fine" to "looks good". Mercury is another example of FANDOM tech that's going to be around for a while. It's constantly evolving, but the best benefits of new Mercury features will go to communities with portable code. Before you ask, customization of the Mercury skin is not something we're offering at this time, but if and when we do it will be first available for portable communities.

    Screenshot-naruto.wikia.com-2018.10.01-18-08-34.png Screenshot-naruto.wikia.com-2018.10.01-18-13-45.png Screenshot-naruto.wikia.com-2018.10.01-18-41-36.png Screenshot-naruto.wikia.com-2018.10.01-18-43-00.png

    For your review, I've created these first few templates and corresponding CSS (and of course, the Lua Modules). I did make some changes for readability and clarity, and easily visible data. I resized the width to be more in line with typical infoboxes encountered elsewhere, as we've researched and found it to be ideal. I am also working out some issues with {{Infobox/Naruto/Character}}, {{Infobox/Jutsu}}, and {{Infobox/Naruto/Team}}. That's why we've extensively tested these, after all: I want them to function perfectly both visibly and invisibly (with SMW). I intend to keep working on the remainder, but wanted to get your eyes on these to start with.

    My hope is to present additional proofs of concept for you to see that there's no loss of form or function, including your remaining infobox templates. Would your community consider approving them? I can do the coding and styling work myself, and save you from spending your valuable time. We would appreciate your go-ahead, but it is an incremental process and there are multiple stages where you can ask questions or for changes. We're expecting it may take a month or more to get full consensus. Please let me know. Thanks!

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    • >_>

      <_<

      I'm not very well versed in this part of the wiki (coding and display), but it looks good to me.

      And that kind makes me nervous lol. I'll hold off on my vote until someone more experienced with this takes a look. Looks promising though

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    • @FishTank, sorry to edit your post, but one of your images was linking to the wrong one, so I changed it to what was intended so users who had wanted to see larger versions of each image were not confused.

      As FANDOM already knows, we've been steadfast in wanting to maintain our SMW infoboxes over the portable infoboxes that FANDOM released years ago. We felt that, to be quite blunt, changing from SMW to portable infoboxes at the time would be a total degradation from what we currently had in nearly every way possible.

      However, this proposed amalgamation between SMW and Lua, from first glance, seems like a very nice compromise between maintaining the SMW functionality that we stand by, and the portability on the Mercury skin that FANDOM has been pushing on communities for a while.

      Again, given how stern we've been with keeping SMW here, I think the best case scenario in this would be us being able to preserve every function we currently have from SMW with little to no sacrifices, with it also being portable and upgraded by Lua. Nevertheless, I will admit, while I have experience in this area of the wiki, I am not a renown expert on it like say, User:UltimateSupreme. I'll observe from afar and hear opinions from him and others here who have similar experience and skill in this area more so than I after their inspections.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: @FishTank, sorry to edit your post, but one of your images was linking to the wrong one, so I changed it to what was intended so users who had wanted to see larger versions of each image were not confused.

      No problem. Glad you caught it! 😀

      As FANDOM already knows, we've been steadfast in wanting to maintain our SMW infoboxes over the portable infoboxes that FANDOM released years ago. We felt that, to be quite blunt, changing from SMW to portable infoboxes at the time would be a total degradation from what we currently had in nearly every way possible.

      Understandable. And that's why we took our time making sure we got things right.

      However, this proposed amalgamation between SMW and Lua, from first glance, seems like a very nice compromise between maintaining the SMW functionality that we stand by, and the portability on the Mercury skin that FANDOM has been pushing on communities for a while.

      You can try the Drafts that are already developed on live articles and compare the SMW properties. I've tested on a variety of articles, so I'm eager to have you find any faults (though I don't think you will).

      Again, given how stern we've been with keeping SMW here, I think the best case scenario in this would be us being able to preserve every function we currently have from SMW with little to no sacrifices, with it also being portable and upgraded by Lua. Nevertheless, I will admit, while I have experience in this area of the wiki, I am not a renown expert on it like say, User:UltimateSupreme. I'll observe from afar and hear opinions from him and others here who have similar experience and skill in this area more so than I after their inspections.

      That's our best case scenario, too. While I did make some design changes for readability and usability, there should not be any SMW functions sacrificed.

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    • I have no issue viewing the infoboxes on mobile, and the current infoboxes are fine tbh. I don't see the reason to change them, and while there might be millions of page views on the wiki, the series as a whole is winding down (with only Boruto to keep it going). We don't see that many edits here so I don't think there's much reason to go around changing the entire wiki's infoboxes, since little gets edited.

      Looking at one of the example infoboxes via diffs on one of the articles, the new infoboxes extend down much further than our current ones (for clarity, I checked it on Hate Among the Uchihas: The Last of the Clan!). The current infobox stops just at the end of the "Trivia" section, but the new one leaves a large white space for no reason after Trivia, presumably because of the arbitrarily decided "width" based on supposed "research", which leaves little space for things to fit in a single line.

      If this was being proposed, say 5 years ago when the series was still going strong and the wiki getting daily editors, I would agree with the change, but right now, with the wiki mostly dead and most activity in the forums, I don't think updating infoboxes really has any benefit to the wiki as a whole: it only really benefits Wikia/Fandom in the end.

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    • The community receives a very healthy amount of traffic, and even if the original subject ends we expect it will still be an active community for years to come. Many of our communities experience active editing long past their expected expiry dates, and plenty of reading besides. Further, you do have daily editors, so we would disagree that the wiki is "mostly dead".

      "The current infoboxes are fine" is not a strong reason not to change. There are performance reasons, unrelated to mobile display, that are involved. Communities with features like Portable Infoboxes get the best of FANDOM's infrastructure and are the first to be able to try out new products that you may want. While it does benefit FANDOM, it doesn't only benefit FANDOM.

      Additionally, simplifying the templates to a FANDOM standard tech makes maintenance easier for changes even after this generation of leaders. Untangling the iBox system and all of the helper templates that have been set up drastically improves the comprehension of code, on this community and for anyone that wants to learn from it to replicate experiences elsewhere.

      The real question is: "If FANDOM is doing all the work of migration, what's the downside of switching over?"

      SuperSajuuk wrote: Looking at one of the example infoboxes via diffs on one of the articles, the new infoboxes extend down much further than our current ones (for clarity, I checked it on Hate Among the Uchihas: The Last of the Clan!). The current infobox stops just at the end of the "Trivia" section, but the new one leaves a large white space for no reason after Trivia, presumably because of the arbitrarily decided "width" based on supposed "research", which leaves little space for things to fit in a single line.

      The design can be altered via CSS, of course. They do extend further down as a result of a narrower box, which is indeed the recommended width based on UX research from our network and beyond. Plenty still fits on single lines, and is not cramped when it does not. The whitespace you mentioned is quite minimal for me, but your experience may vary based on any number of factors.

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    • FishTank
      FishTank removed this reply because:
      02:22, October 5, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Do we have any sort of consensus?

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Do we have any sort of consensus?

      You say it like we'll have a choice >___< Need I remind you this?

      That being said, I don't really mind these changes, though I do think that the actual look of the infoboxes could use a bit of refining, but maybe it's just me appreciating our more sleek and minimalistic approach a bit too much.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Do we have any sort of consensus?

      Not yet. It's far too soon to have one, given these infoboxes need to be rigorously tested on live articles. Not to mention:

      FishTank wrote: We would appreciate your go-ahead, but it is an incremental process and there are multiple stages where you can ask questions or for changes. We're expecting it may take a month or more to get full consensus. Please let me know. Thanks!

      This is something that'll take time.

      BerserkerPhantom wrote: You say it like we'll have a choice >___< Need I remind you this?

      We do. If it's one thing FANDOM hasn't been forceful with, it's their portable infoboxes. Otherwise, they'd have changed our SMW ones years ago irrespective of the complaints we'd have thrown at them. Trust me, they've tried to add portable infoboxes to another wiki I've worked on, but they never got implemented there because of the reasons I provided as to why they wouldn't help much (btw, I like your Nightwing avatar, BerserkerPhantom).

      Just to be clear: if everything (or mostly everything) works on the SMW end, I'll say yes to the changes. But they still need to be tested on articles. Currently, I'm finding issues with the volume pages.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Currently, I'm finding issues with the volume pages.

      Excellent! I'm glad you found a potential bug. Feel free to mention these on my talk page, and I am happy to squash the bugs. I'll look into that one.

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    • FishTank wrote: Excellent! I'm glad you found a potential bug. Feel free to mention these on my talk page, and I am happy to squash the bugs. I'll look into that one.

      No problem. I'll test more and let you know. And I found a weird form issue as well.

      EDIT: Never mind, that "form issue" is related to the current SMW infobox, not the draft.

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    • It's been a couple weeks, and I feel like there's an agreement in principle that I can continue putting up some more drafts for testing, so long as they're feature-complete. In that respect, have you found any SMW issues with the Drafts, WindStar?

      Also, I'm reluctant to wait on UltimateSupreme to move forward (even if moving forward is in baby steps). His editing is fairly sporadic for the last year, and so I'd like to see other opinions as well. Perhaps this sort of change can help simplify things for the less technically-oriented.

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    • FishTank wrote: It's been a couple weeks, and I feel like there's an agreement in principle that I can continue putting up some more drafts for testing, so long as they're feature-complete. In that respect, have you found any SMW issues with the Drafts, WindStar?

      Also, I'm reluctant to wait on UltimateSupreme to move forward (even if moving forward is in baby steps). His editing is fairly sporadic for the last year, and so I'd like to see other opinions as well. Perhaps this sort of change can help simplify things for the less technically-oriented.

      UltimateSupreme, plus Dantman, are the two main editors of this wiki who know how to use the SMW templates and have the most knowledge with using them. He responds when he can, he shouldn't just be sidelined because he doesn't edit as much. Post on his talkpage (as well as Dantman's) and they'll step into the discussion when they're able to.

      Our wiki has always been technically orientated with the information displays. It should not be a goal of this change to make it easier for people to add false or unverified information to wiki articles and infoboxes.

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    • SuperSajuuk wrote:

      FishTank wrote: Perhaps this sort of change can help simplify things for the less technically-oriented.

      It should not be a goal of this change to make it easier for people to add false or unverified information to wiki articles and infoboxes.

      I believe you misunderstood what I meant: both the PIs and the existing classic infoboxes use the same methods for information entry in articles. The template coding itself would be simplified with PIs + Lua, and PIs are indeed simpler to understand (rather than the iBox system) for the less technically-oriented should changes or maintenance be required.

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    • FishTank wrote: It's been a couple weeks, and I feel like there's an agreement in principle that I can continue putting up some more drafts for testing, so long as they're feature-complete. In that respect, have you found any SMW issues with the Drafts, WindStar?

      Yes, I have. The proposed draft infobox for Tools removes the slideshow in the infobox. Ideally we'd like to keep those in the infoboxes that use slideshows along with maintaining tabbers in infoboxes that use them (such as character infoboxes). Not to mention in the draft, the "Name" sub-infobox listing the different names of the subject looks different from the current infoboxes, particularly the lack of appearance of the words "Kanji", "Rōmaji" and "Alternative names" in their respective parameters. I would think we'd like those to be formatted the same way you format the "Literal English" and "English anime" parameters in your draft for Tools.

      FishTank wrote: Also, I'm reluctant to wait on UltimateSupreme to move forward (even if moving forward is in baby steps). His editing is fairly sporadic for the last year, and so I'd like to see other opinions as well. Perhaps this sort of change can help simplify things for the less technically-oriented.

      I was aware that UltimateSupreme is busy and may not give a timely response, so my contingency plan for that from the beginning was to contact Dantman by email. Though UltimateSupreme did test the draft on a page here so I presumed he'd have responded by now. So I'll get Dantman, as he usually appears when he's contacted by email. Both of them have a more in-depth understanding of the infoboxes than I do. Even if I agree to them being implemented here given everything goes smoothly, either one of them can ensure that everything works more proficiently than I.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      The proposed draft infobox for Tools removes the slideshow in the infobox. Ideally we'd like to keep those in the infoboxes that use slideshows along with maintaining tabbers in infoboxes that use them (such as character infoboxes). Not to mention in the draft, the "Name" sub-infobox listing the different names of the subject looks different from the current infoboxes, particularly the lack of appearance of the words "Kanji", "Rōmaji" and "Alternative names" in their respective parameters. I would think we'd like those to be formatted the same way you format the "Literal English" and "English anime" parameters in your draft for Tools.

      Those were intentional alterations.

      The elimination of the Infobox/Slideshow helper template is by design, as that's handled by Lua now and creates a tabber where appropriate. An actual slideshow that changes images is actually a readability and usability issue, and is not possible on mobile, regardless. Being able to focus on one image at a time and select an alternative is the preferred data thinking, and timed transitions between images were intentionally omitted from PI capabilities.

      The alternate showing of names also is clear data-delineation, as it is fairly apparent what the differences are in kanji and romaji and making labels for them is both redundant and considered oversimplified bad design. Marking them as Japanese is also unnecessary, as that's assumed. From a data-first and readability / usability perspective, placing them at the same level as the English title is both more appropriate and reads better. I understand that it's a change, but I hope that you will consider it is a change for good reason. I'd also like to consider consolidating both the English and Japanese titles above the image, for consistency.

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    • Note: as some of the templates with drafts were altered today, they may not have direct correlation until the drafts are also altered. I'll do that tomorrow.

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    • Dantman replied to me via email. In his words, he said he "[doesn't] really have any input. [He] made the base infobox system, but to [his] memory others expanded it beyond [his] knowledge. [He doesn't] know all the intricate details that need to be covered by a new implementation."

      He also noted that we should ensure that things like auto-populating of SMW data for other infoboxes still works.

      I'll try pinging UltimateSupreme again on his page, as I don't have his email address.

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    • It's been over a month since this post launched, and about two weeks since the last reply. I'm interpreting Dantman's response as "yes, so long as SMW works". UltimateSupreme gave a go-ahead in other internal communications when he was a part of Vanguard. Can we move ahead at this point?

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    • FishTank wrote: UltimateSupreme gave a go-ahead in other internal communications when he was a part of Vanguard.

      How recently was this?

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    • I haven't talked to UltimateSupreme directly in several months, but PIs have been part of the plan for over a year.

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    • I don't currently have the time to take a thorough look but they look good at a glance. As long as we can replicate all of the current features (mainly smw and forms related), I think we can move ahead with this

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
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      16:21, November 13, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • looks good to me

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    • At first glance, they look amazing, but when you pay attention, you can see the mess-ups and I understand it. I'll ask before editing now, so I don't mess anything up :)

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    • FishTank, are we going to move ahead with this? UltimateSupreme has already given his reply.

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    • Yes, I would like to. Now that we're agreed in principle to move forward, let's make a different thread (or put on my Talk page) the flaws you guys are seeing in the Drafts that are here, so that they can be corrected before deployment. Let's do that before rolling out the next batch.

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    • Since there were no other flaws identified in your testing or mine, I have started rolling a couple of these out. Let me know if there are issues.

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    • Something not quite right with the volume form, see any volume page to see some extra code showing up, and no inclusion of chapter summaries. In tools volume, the other name field is being rendered different from before, instead of being another entry under names, it's sort of a subclass of its own, see Kubikiribōchō.

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Something not quite right with the volume form, see any volume page to see some extra code showing up, and no inclusion of chapter summaries.
      Yep, I saw that after I started rechecking. I've reverted it and taken it back to Draft form. I think it's not understanding the difference between Naruto and Boruto, to start.
      In tools volume, the other name field is being rendered different from before, instead of being another entry under names, it's sort of a subclass of its own, see Kubikiribōchō.

      That was intentional. See Thread:269574#17. I'd like to consolidate the names that are in that format.

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    • FishTank wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:

      In tools volume, the other name field is being rendered different from before, instead of being another entry under names, it's sort of a subclass of its own, see Kubikiribōchō.

      That was intentional. See Thread:269574#17. I'd like to consolidate the names that are in that format.

      The thing is, the "other names" field is a "catch all" field for assorted names that don't necessarily fit anywhere else, that goes for every form that has that. In the tool example, that's a weapon moniker, but not its actual name, the way currently formatted puts the moniker on par with the actual name. You run into a similar, but more complex problem when it comes to the jutsu form.

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    • That's easy enough to adjust. How would you feel about placing the (full-width) Kanji/Kana+Romaji title fields above the image immediately after the English title?

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    • I know nothing about code, but whatever you did that made the article look like it did at the time of this post is ok. Another thing did pop up with episodes though. Boruto episodes are showing links to original Naruto episodes in the previous and next fields.

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    • I dig the overall look of the info boxes, but are the images always going look this big, or can that adjusted to fit the sleeker design we’ve always had? Maybe it’s just me....

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    • Omnibender wrote: Boruto episodes are showing links to original Naruto episodes in the previous and next fields.

      Can you show a link on where you see this? Metal Lee Goes Wild! looks fine.

      Minamoto15 wrote: I dig the overall look of the info boxes, but are the images always going look this big, or can that adjusted to fit the sleeker design we’ve always had? Maybe it’s just me....

      The images are sized to meet the width of the infobox, which is a little different in dimension. They're resampled to be optimal at that size. In many cases, that's actually smaller at 270px than the classic infobox's 300px. Interesting feedback that you think they look bigger when they're actually smaller. 😀

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    • Oh I believe you that they're actually smaller dimension wise. I should've clarified that I"m on mobile, but I didn't know images were already scaled. They just look bigger to me on my phone.

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    • Another issue: the infobox in this chapter article links to an anime episode despite there being no anime adaptation for the respective chapter.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Another issue: the infobox in this chapter article links to an anime episode despite there being no anime adaptation for the respective chapter.

      That's another Naruto / Boruto confusion that I'll square away tomorrow.

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    • FishTank wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: Boruto episodes are showing links to original Naruto episodes in the previous and next fields.

      Can you show a link on where you see this? Metal Lee Goes Wild! looks fine.

      It's not. The previous and next episodes linked in the infobox, My Name is Konohamaru! and Pass or Fail: Survival Test, are episodes 2 and 4 of the original Naruto anime. The correct episodes to be linked as previous and next are The Hokage's Son…!! and A Ninjutsu Battle of the Sexes!. Something else I discovered that I don't know if it's temporary is that the ai rdates have vanished in arc pages. Go to the Academy Entrance Arc page linked in this episode, or any page in Category:Arcs save Plot of Naruto, every one that has episode lists lacks air dates.

      Regarding Boruto/Naruto confusions, we've seen something like this before. I don't recall if it was specific to Boruto/Naruto, but I do recall there being some weird chapter/episode overlap. If something showed up in say chapter 12 of Naruto, it would also show up in chapter 12 of Boruto, and vice versa. The stuff from both chapters would also show up in corresponding volumes, and in the episode articles that covered the material from those chapters. Might have happened with Naruto/Naruto Shippuden instead, don't remember if Boruto manga and anime were a thing alread. I don't recall who I reported this to, or how they fixed it, but they did.

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    • The Arc page airdates are fixed. But I'll definitely try to fix the Boruto issue, which is causing the Metal Lee Goes Wild links to be incorrect.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Something not quite right with the volume form, see any volume page to see some extra code showing up, and no inclusion of chapter summaries.

      • Extra code fixed in the draft.
      • Chapter summaries still aren't working, and I'll figure this out before reinstalling the draft.

      Omnibender wrote: Another thing did pop up with episodes though. Boruto episodes are showing links to original Naruto episodes in the previous and next fields.

      Fixed.

      WindStar7125 wrote: Another issue: the infobox in this chapter article links to an anime episode despite there being no anime adaptation for the respective chapter.

      Fixed.

      Omnibender wrote: Something else I discovered that I don't know if it's temporary is that the ai rdates have vanished in arc pages. Go to the Academy Entrance Arc page linked in this episode, or any page in Category:Arcs save Plot of Naruto, every one that has episode lists lacks air dates.

      Fixed.

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    • Could you change "Airing" to "Air date" please?

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    • Seelentau wrote: Could you change "Airing" to "Air date" please?

      Done.

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    • FishTank wrote: That's easy enough to adjust.

      I presume "other names" became "Alternative names" in the infoboxes in this article for example, correct? If this is the case, thanks for the adjustment.

      How would you feel about placing the (full-width) Kanji/Kana+Romaji title fields above the image immediately after the English title?

      I presume this is a move for consistency (which I have no issues with) across infoboxes, since the Volume infobox, unlike others, has displayed the triad of names above the image before the proposal? Or are there other reasons too for this move?

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    • Not sure if it's been mentioned, and I don't feel like reading everything here, so I'll just ask anyway. In the Technique Infoboxes, the 'n' in 'classification' doesn't fit, placing it below the rest of the word. Can this be fixed?

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    • Munchvtec wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, and I don't feel like reading everything here, so I'll just ask anyway. In the Technique Infoboxes, the 'n' in 'classification' doesn't fit, placing it below the rest of the word. Can this be fixed?

      Can you provide a screenshot and a link?

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    • From Spiralling Absorption Sphere, but it seems to be every jutsu article. Can delete after

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    • I'm seeing it on a single line, but this might be a good time to rename that to "Jutsu Type".

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    • It's on a single line for me as well. Might be because of computer screen settings? Mine are 1920x1080.

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    • Not really a complaint, but a necessary note going forward, at least in jutsu articles, we can no longer finish lists with multiple entries with a comma like we used to. Check revisions before and after my edit on Kāma around the time of this comment. This might also apply to other forms that have multiple entry fields that yield links.

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    • FishTank, something else popped up: In this article, (Movie canon only) is being displayed in the Users section of the infobox, which should not be the case.

      To my understanding, how the Jutsu infobox works is when we list a character as one of the users in the jutsu infobox, SMW allows that jutsu name (hyperlinked and all) to appear in the jutsu section of the respective character infobox (we do this so we don't have to manually list all of the jutsu of a character in their respective infobox, as it would be a hassle to do so for characters like Naruto or Sasuke, both examples of characters who have used a vast array of jutsu).

      Most of the Naruto films are regarded as non-canon, so for instance, if a canon character uses a jutsu that they've only been shown to use in a non-canon movie, we still list them as a user of that jutsu in the jutsu infobox, but the addition of ~movie next to the character's name in the source code yields a (Movie only) tag that is displayed in the jutsu infobox, and most importantly, the jutsu name does not appear in the respective character infobox due to this addition.

      Things got a bit interesting when the recent two films, The Last: Naruto the Movie and Boruto: Naruto the Movie were confirmed as canon, so the purpose behind appending ~movie canon to a character's name in the source code of the jutsu infobox is so that the jutsu name does appear in the respective character infobox. Aside from that, ~movie canon works no differently than ~movie and should still display (Movie only) in the jutsu infobox. If I recall correctly, UltimateSupreme is the one who implemented this when canon movies became a thing, so can you fix this please?

      Also, this post of mine never received an answer.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      I presume this is a move for consistency (which I have no issues with) across infoboxes, since the Volume infobox, unlike others, has displayed the triad of names above the image before the proposal? Or are there other reasons too for this move?

      There are minor semantic / UX reasons, but this is mostly for consistency.

      WindStar7125 wrote: Aside from that, ~movie canon works no differently than ~movie and should still display (Movie only) in the jutsu infobox. If I recall correctly, UltimateSupreme is the one who implemented this when canon movies became a thing, so can you fix this please?

      Yes, though it may take a day or two.

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    • Alright, thanks.

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    • The "n" thing isn't going into a second line for me, but I'm using Custom CSS so that the look of the pages is more consistent with older versions of Wikia (because I don't like the new style and never will).

      Looking on that article linked earlier, I don't like that the Kanji/Romaji bar is above the image. This is especially the case, given that the text is so large compared to before (which makes it hard to read because there's too much large text too close to each other). I feel the infobox could be ever so slightly wider, but with smaller label text so it doesn't look so bad, imo.

      It feels out of place as if it was just shoved there due to having no other place to be put. Can that bar be moved below the image, so it goes like:
      PAGE TITLE
      IMAGE
      KANJI/ROMAJI (in translation template)

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    • Something functional I've noticed. Before, when a manga/anime jutsu had derived jutsu in a lower canon, while it wasn't listed in the infobox, the infobox did contain a piped link reading "derived jutsu" to a query that listed the derived jutsu, like there is for jutsu and tools in character infoboxes at the moment, with those listing all the jutsu and tools used by the character regardless of medium. This was something that made game, movie, and novel jutsu easier to find. For example, Chidori True Spear is derived from Chidori Sharp Spear, but since there is no longer the link to the query, nothing in the CSS articles indicates the existence of CTS. The link still shows up and has that function for jutsu that do have manga and anime derived jutsu, like Rasengan and Chidori.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      I'm admittedly a bit confused here as to what the desired behavior is, and want to make sure I have this right.

      To confirm:

      • ~movie in a jutsu's users= should display in the jutsu's "Users" as (Movie only).
      • ~movie in a jutsu's users= should not display in the user's "Jutsu".
      • ~movie canon in a jutsu's users= should display in the jutsu's "Users" as (Movie only).
      • ~movie canon in a jutsu's users= should display in the user's "Jutsu" without any special qualifier (such as (Movie only)).

      SuperSajuuk wrote: Looking on that article linked earlier, I don't like that the Kanji/Romaji bar is above the image. This is especially the case, given that the text is so large compared to before (which makes it hard to read because there's too much large text too close to each other). I feel the infobox could be ever so slightly wider, but with smaller label text so it doesn't look so bad, imo.

      It feels out of place as if it was just shoved there due to having no other place to be put. Can that bar be moved below the image, so it goes like:
      PAGE TITLE
      IMAGE
      KANJI/ROMAJI (in translation template)

      Screenshot 2019-01-02 17.49.31

      Common display, default skin

      As mentioned above, there are both semantic (they are equivalent titles in a different language (which happens to be the source language), and therefore should be equal in terms of placement and size) and UX (putting titles / names for the same thing should be clustered near each other) reasons for placing them together consistently. These are true titles, rather than key/value pairs. Because they describe the object, rather than the images (specifically) or subobjects, placing them at the topic makes more topological sense. The text for English and Japanese titles was previously below the size threshold for basic readability but is now at 14px (the same as paragraph text in the body of the article). Therefore, I would dispute that it is "too much large text too close to each other". Smaller label width would indeed cause words like "Classification" to be broken onto two lines, but a smaller font-size would also begin to present legibility problems (12px is the UX threshold, for both English and Japanese text).

      As for the infobox size itself, our research shows that 270px is pretty optimal for desktop screens (and most wiki authors seem to agree as it's the most common, average, and most moderate size of infoboxes surveyed throughout the network). It's pretty well balanced on Fandom's default skin (which you really should try).

      Omnibender wrote: Something functional I've noticed. Before, when a manga/anime jutsu had derived jutsu in a lower canon, while it wasn't listed in the infobox, the infobox did contain a piped link reading "derived jutsu" to a query that listed the derived jutsu, like there is for jutsu and tools in character infoboxes at the moment, with those listing all the jutsu and tools used by the character regardless of medium. This was something that made game, movie, and novel jutsu easier to find. For example, Chidori True Spear is derived from Chidori Sharp Spear, but since there is no longer the link to the query, nothing in the CSS articles indicates the existence of CTS. The link still shows up and has that function for jutsu that do have manga and anime derived jutsu, like Rasengan and Chidori.

      I'm unclear what the difference is that you'd like to indicate between Chidori's

      and Chidori's

      Which jutsu media should show a derivation, and which should not?

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    • Jutsu derivation in Chidori looks and functions like it should. As a manga and anime jutsu, it shows "children" and "grandchildren" jutsu that appear in the those media, and the "derived jutsu" title of the section links to a query that shows every "children" jutsu, but not "grandchildren" jutsu across all media. In Chidori Sharp Spear, while there is no derived jutsu in manga and anime, it does have in games. While the list should be empty in the article, the "derived jutsu" link to the query should still show up, where the "children" jutsu would be listed.

      Other stuff I've noticed, for the forms and infoboxes that have been updated, unnamed jutsu are not showing up in italic. When a certain specific jutsu is defined, but has no official name, it is simply tagged as unnamed. The italic is our shorthand for unnamed things, like jutsu, character, tools and teams. For example, Water Release: Hiding in Water Technique is unnamed, but in chapter and episode articles showing its debut, it's not showing up in italic, giving the impression it's a named jutsu. It remains in italic when showing up in other not yet updated forms.

      What else? Air dates are not showing up for episodes in List of Animated Media. And since you're making changes anyway, issues and inconsistencies we've had for a while that no one has been able to fix as far as I'm aware of: italics not being applied to certain unnamed things in infoboxes, like teams in character infoboxes; for characters in lesser canon, like movies, if they use jutsu that is from manga, anime, novel, and canon movies, it doesn't show up in their character infobox. For example, Hiruko (missing-nin) uses Projection Technique, Big Ball Rasengan, and Lightning Cutter, but they don't show up in his character infobox. I believe that has something to do with the movie/canon movie situation WindStar7125 has explained above.

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    • Please confirm that the ~movie / ~movie canon behavior above is the expected behavior.

      Omnibender wrote: Jutsu derivation in Chidori looks and functions like it should. As a manga and anime jutsu, it shows "children" and "grandchildren" jutsu that appear in the those media, and the "derived jutsu" title of the section links to a query that shows every "children" jutsu, but not "grandchildren" jutsu across all media. In Chidori Sharp Spear, while there is no derived jutsu in manga and anime, it does have in games. While the list should be empty in the article, the "derived jutsu" link to the query should still show up, where the "children" jutsu would be listed.

      I've made a fix to this. Tell me what you think about it.

      Other stuff I've noticed, for the forms and infoboxes that have been updated, unnamed jutsu are not showing up in italic. When a certain specific jutsu is defined, but has no official name, it is simply tagged as unnamed. The italic is our shorthand for unnamed things, like jutsu, character, tools and teams. For example, Water Release: Hiding in Water Technique is unnamed, but in chapter and episode articles showing its debut, it's not showing up in italic, giving the impression it's a named jutsu. It remains in italic when showing up in other not yet updated forms.

      Should be fixed.

      What else? Air dates are not showing up for episodes in List of Animated Media.

      Fixed.

      And since you're making changes anyway, issues and inconsistencies we've had for a while that no one has been able to fix as far as I'm aware of: italics not being applied to certain unnamed things in infoboxes, like teams in character infoboxes; for characters in lesser canon, like movies, if they use jutsu that is from manga, anime, novel, and canon movies, it doesn't show up in their character infobox. For example, Hiruko (missing-nin) uses Projection Technique, Big Ball Rasengan, and Lightning Cutter, but they don't show up in his character infobox. I believe that has something to do with the movie/canon movie situation WindStar7125 has explained above.

      I haven't deployed character infoboxes yet, but I can pursue either solution if I know what you're looking for. I can include additional media appearances or do a similar solution in this case to Derived Jutsu where the current set is shown (plus canonical movies) and a link to show the non-canonical appearances.

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    • FishTank wrote: I'm admittedly a bit confused here as to what the desired behavior is, and want to make sure I have this right.

      To confirm:

      • ~movie in a jutsu's users= should display in the jutsu's "Users" as (Movie only).
      • ~movie in a jutsu's users= should not display in the user's "Jutsu".
      • ~movie canon in a jutsu's users= should display in the jutsu's "Users" as (Movie only).
      • ~movie canon in a jutsu's users= should display in the user's "Jutsu" without any special qualifier (such as (Movie only)).

      Sorry for taking long to respond, but this is all correct.

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    • ~movie / ~movie canon has now been fixed to the indicated behavior on jutsu articles.

      Omnibender wrote: italics not being applied to certain unnamed things in infoboxes, like teams in character infoboxes;

      I'll go back to those and get them consistent.

      for characters in lesser canon, like movies, if they use jutsu that is from manga, anime, novel, and canon movies, it doesn't show up in their character infobox. For example, Hiruko (missing-nin) uses Projection Technique, Big Ball Rasengan, and Lightning Cutter, but they don't show up in his character infobox.

      To clarify: if a given character is ONLY in games and / or non-canonical movies, you want to show all jutsu in their character article's infobox, and show them without a clarifier like (Movie only) (because that would be redundant). Correct? If so, I can do that when I do the character infoboxes.


      Screenshot 2019-01-04 18.01.32

      I wanted to run another design idea by you all. I'd like to consider moving the "edit" link in the infobox (seen in this screenshot) to a less obtrusive icon (that also won't show up in mobile). The proposed icons are:

      • an eye icon for "Browse" of the semantic data (though we could just as easily add that to the edit dropdown)
      • an image icon for image search, currently placed up against the title.
      • a pencil icon for form editing — It's actually redundant, given the "Edit with form" button for the article, but you may not want to get rid of it altogether.

      The icons move to the next line (in this case) if the title is sufficient length, but placing them on their own line below the titles (regardless of the title length) is also a path we can take. Tell me what you think, and what you'd prefer.

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    • The derived jutsu issue I pointed out with Chidori Sharp Spear seems to be resolved, but I don't quite get why there are now two links to the derived jutsu query, both in the section title, and as an entry reading "All derived jutsu". Does the way that work requires at least one entry to generate the "derived jutsu" collapsible section title?

      Unnamed jutsu issue shown with Water Release: Hiding in Water Technique has been fixed.

      FishTank wrote: To clarify: if a given character is ONLY in games and / or non-canonical movies, you want to show all jutsu in their character article's infobox, and show them without a clarifier like (Movie only) (because that would be redundant). Correct? If so, I can do that when I do the character infoboxes.

      Yes. Though we do have a few exceptions where we don't quite know how to make work, from the top of my head, there are some characters and jutsu from the first non-canon movie that appeared in games, but those characters also have game-only jutsu. There might be others that escape me. The entire ordeal of matching which jutsu shows where is essentially a lengthy and intricate if/then rationale with the media of the jutsu and the character. If a jutsu exists in the manga/anime/novel/canon movie, it should appear in the infobox of every manga/anime/novel/canon movie character that has used it in these media. For example, Rasengan showing up for Kakashi Hatake and Koji Kashin. If a manga/anime character uses a manga/anime jutsu but only in a lesser canon, like a video game, the user is listed in the jutsu article with the appropriate tag, doesn't show up in the character's infobox, but is listed in the query currently linked from the collapsible jutsu section title in the character infobox. An example of this is Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique for Roshi. Game jutsu only appears in character infoboxes if the character has not appeared in manga/anime/novel/canon movie. Tags appearing where appropriate and dropped where obvious. If a jutsu only exists in anime, manga character users will have the anime only tag shown in their infoboxes, while anime only characters won't have need for it, so on and so forth. I hope I made sense, I had to write and rewrite parts of this about three times, someone else correct me if something slipped by.

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    • i would like to add something about this topic

      the episode infobox has caused a close merge or something to the credits box

      for example this https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Deploy!_Team_Tenten?diff=1314958&oldid=1313914

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    • Also regarding infoboxes, something changed the Japanese air date field into a single field, instead of the separate month, day, year fields that still are the case for English air dates.

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      I don't quite get why there are now two links to the derived jutsu query, both in the section title, and as an entry reading "All derived jutsu". Does the way that work requires at least one entry to generate the "derived jutsu" collapsible section title?

      Yes, because a list of or search for derived jutsu literally is data, and shouldn't just have a header. This way, there is indeed a visual indication, and that "All derived jutsu" only appears if the only derived jutsu are non-canon. Otherwise, the link in the header when there are at least some canonical jutsu goes to the same place.

      Yes. Though we do have a few exceptions where we don't quite know how to make work...

      Is the way it works currently how you want it? Or did you want to make a specific change in how exceptions are handled that is different from how it is now?

      Kunoichi101 wrote: the episode infobox has caused a close merge or something to the credits box

      It appears properly for me on both desktop and mobile. The infobox may have pushed the full-width table down, but that's to be expected with a full-width table.

      Omnibender wrote: Also regarding infoboxes, something changed the Japanese air date field into a single field, instead of the separate month, day, year fields that still are the case for English air dates.

      I've looked back through the last few years of revisions to the Episode infobox, and I don't see where the Japanese dates were separated in the manner you describe, though I would suspect they really should not have been separated and should be a consistent and comprehensive date.

      Any response to the design proposal above?

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    • recently i've been editing with a clear space on some episode excluding boruto episodes

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    • FishTank wrote:

      Yes. Though we do have a few exceptions where we don't quite know how to make work...

      Is the way it works currently how you want it? Or did you want to make a specific change in how exceptions are handled that is different from how it is now?

      Like I mentioned, there are a couple characters from the first non-canon movie that have appeared in a game. I haven't checked the specifics in a while, but I believe there's a mix of jutsu they only use in the movie, they only use in the game, and they use in both. And as if that wasn't enough, there's an issue of classification because what some of those jutsu were called at the time (Ice Release), was something that showed up in a completely different form in the manga later on, so their listing also makes a matter of concern at the Ice Release article.

      I've looked back through the last few years of revisions to the Episode infobox, and I don't see where the Japanese dates were separated in the manner you describe, though I would suspect they really should not have been separated and should be a consistent and comprehensive date.

      I don't know how they'd be in the infobox code, but you can see the effect of what I mean by trying to edit any episode article with the form. You'll see there's a single entry for the Japanese air date, while year, month and day are separate entries for the English air date. I know this stuff, I the one who creates most episode articles, and have been for quite a while, and until you started updating the episode infobox code, the Japanese air date field was like the English one, with a dropdown menu for selecting months, and separate fields for day and year.

      Something else I noticed, now in jutsu infoboxes. We use several icons in jutsu infoboxes. If the jutsu has a chakra nature, you'll see them listed in the nature section, and each chakra nature has a corresponding icon. We also have icons for things like kekkei genkai/tota/mora, and clan icons. We use those in the classification section, using annotations to add things like the kekkei genkai used so it shows up in the corresponding kekkei genkai article, and if it's part of clan specific hiden jutsu so it shows up in the corresponding clan article. The adding to the article part is working as it was previously, but something broke with the icons. When tagging kekkei g/t/m, adding which one is used is supposed to add the icon, like it does with chakra natures, and the icon is also a link the the kekkei g/t/m article. For some reason, that no longer works for kekkei g/t/m which are also chakra natures. Similarly, adding which clan the hiden jutsu belongs to no longer adds the clan's icon. You can see both issues in Allied Shinobi Forces Technique, which is an army-wide collaboration which involves both multiple nature kekkei genkai and multiple clan jutsu. Curiously, dropping the "Release" from the tag causes the icon to appear, but the icon instead links to a redirect (like just Lava or Storm). The same thing happens when dropping "Clan" from hiden jutsu. The issue is not the tags having more than one word, non-nature kekkei genkai tags work for other kekkei genkai, like jutsu tagged for Sakon and Ukon's Kekkei Genkai, except for clan tags, where more than word seems to be the issue. Also, going by the Allied Shinobi Forces Technique example, icons are also being cluttered together when they're not supposed to be. If you preview the article after making the one word changes so the icons show, the kekkei genkai icons are grouped with the clan icons. The kekkei genkai icons precede that classification, after which there's a comma to add the next classification, in this case hiden, and the clan icons should precede the hiden classification, not being throw before the previous classification.

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    • FishTank wrote:

      Screenshot 2019-01-04 18.01.32

      I wanted to run another design idea by you all. I'd like to consider moving the "edit" link in the infobox (seen in this screenshot) to a less obtrusive icon (that also won't show up in mobile). The proposed icons are:

      • an eye icon for "Browse" of the semantic data (though we could just as easily add that to the edit dropdown)
      • an image icon for image search, currently placed up against the title.
      • a pencil icon for form editing — It's actually redundant, given the "Edit with form" button for the article, but you may not want to get rid of it altogether.

      The icons move to the next line (in this case) if the title is sufficient length, but placing them on their own line below the titles (regardless of the title length) is also a path we can take. Tell me what you think, and what you'd prefer.

      Interesting modification. Personally I don't mind, but I'd rather have everything on one line if possible.

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    • Something Kunoichi101 found, there's something going on in articles with converted infoboxes and galleries. See Hiramekarei.

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    • A FANDOM user
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