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  • Haven't seen this one before so thought I'd give it a go. This is the reformed Orochimaru with his arms restored and alive Itachi with no sickness.

    Rules:

    Fair fights, no plot armor.

    Both of them encountered each other before.

    Itachi's YM can only defend from one direction and it is strictly a shield, TB can only seal living things that the tip pierces and is strictly a sword.

    Orochimaru is limited to two edos, Edo Konan and Edo Kimimaro.

    Who would win and how?

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    • Orochimaru wins. Konan spams the Billion Paper God technique whilst Kimi cover the land full of bones.

      Snake barrage of Kusanagi (Tri-directional) can penetrate at the Susano after the explosion (Konan's) incase he survives, as he survived Kirin; a severely potent and hyped attack.

      If it's 1 v 1, Itachi edges the win.

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    • Did i miss something? Since when does Orochimaru have Konan as an EDO?

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    • ^lol, well she is for this fight.

      @KyfieLita68

      Billion Paper God requires enormous amount of prep, which we will exclude for this fight.

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    • Current Orochi prime would have hashi cell amp, so his raw strength would def have the upper hand, but at the end of the day, Orochi has no answer to Itachi's Genjutsu.

      In the one confrontation we see them in, and i say confrontation bc it def wasnt a fight, Oro was helpless against itachi's genjutsu. Itachi's method of fighting is Genjutsu first and foremost, with his reserves being undiminished due to illness, he can use more powerful genjutsu without fear of tiring out.

      TB is the answer to the edo's

      Therefore, Itachi > Oro

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    • Then Itachi wins.

      He utilizes his crows to get up into the sky to negate Kimimaro's bones. From there; he shoots his TB to kill via piercing Oro and his Edos. (Bone defenses are utmost futile whereas snake barrages accompanied by diamond cutting strength suffer the same fate; as TB is spiritual and ignores conventional durability and physical shield resistance)

      Note: DB confirm that TB is long ranged hence maintaining the distance and gaming the rest is child's play for whoever wields them.

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    • @Kyfie

      Check the DP on TB.

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    • It pierced Hydra that is Oro's strongest technique; piercing Bones won't be an issue. Itachi mid diffs. Going by the Manga and not by your fanfiction the TB phases and kills him through sealing.

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    • Kimmimaro's bones were said to be harder than tempered steel. Orochi's Eight Branches technique is Flesh. Last time i checked, Flesh<Tempered steel.

      What are you on about?

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    • Go read the manga instead of asking me the obvious.

      Flesh can be steel-like or much more durable given we've the 3rd Raikage in this Manga. It's like you're arguing for the heck of it. Stop doing that.

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    • Kirito975
      Kirito975 removed this reply because:
      I dont want to argue with this guy anymore
      17:44, September 6, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Since TB is only a sword and YM is only a shield, Orochimaru can knock it off Itachi's Susanoo. LoL.

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    • The thing is, will Itachi expect bones coming from the ground beneath him? Dance of the Seedling Fern could be a nice strategy to end the fight. So even with Susano'o the ground beneath him remains unprotected shown with Madara and Gaara. So a forest of blades coming up might just do Itachi in when he least expects it. If Itachi can seal Kimimaro away before that becomes an issue, then there goes that.

      Also, about the Genjutsu feat. Most of that feat for Itachi came from the anime therefore not canon. The only thing we seen of their fight was the end of it. Itachi places Orochimaru in Genjutsu, Orochimaru basically says "f your Genjutsu" and get's ready to perform Ninjutsu, and Itachi is basically like "Nope" and cuts his arm off. He literally just stunned him basically. With his knowledge of Itachi now (since they retain knowledge of each other according to the DP), I doubt Orochimaru will let that happen again. As for Konan, I feel her maneuverability will be a hassle for Itachi. She can turn into paper and split her body apart at will and mix herself among clones. Then put explosive tags in there. Etc. She's pretty versatile. Her hit and run with Kimimaro at support would probably force Itachi to use Susano'o. I can see Orochimaru just chilling back smiling. Itachi can win for sure, but Orochimaru has ways.

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    • Wiki classifies the illusion as non eye contact. Your opinion on that matter is irrelevant. Crows can be used to levitate him up; negating Seedling Fern. Plus, it has no feats it can surprise attack an S-rank shinobi and a renowned speedster.

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    • @Lone

      Sure Orochimaru would let the edos fight with Itachi first. I don't think genjutsu would be a problem for Orochimaru since he has edos to use Chiyo's strategy to deal with Sharingan genjutsu. I'm curious as to how you think Orochimaru would provide backup for Konan and Kimimaro. Also what would Itachi's strategy be?

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    • KyfieLita68: Wiki classifies the illusion as non eye contact. Your opinion on that matter is irrelevant.

      Opinion? That's exactly what happened, prove me wrong, show me the chapter that doesn't show what I said. Don't just talk about it, be about it. My "opinion" holds just as much relevance as yours. In fact more so, for 1) no one takes you seriously anymore. 2) My "opinion" is actually based off the Manga.


      KyfieLita68: Crows can be used to levitate him up; negating Seedling Fern. Plus, it has no feats it can surprise attack an S-rank shinobi and a renowned speedster.

      It definitely can when that person is in his Susano'o. If Madara can't react to sand fast enough, I see no reason why Itachi can react to spikes he didn't see coming.

      Ninja of War: I don't think genjutsu would be a problem for Orochimaru since he has edos to use Chiyo's strategy to deal with Sharingan genjutsu.

      That's a very very good point. That is indeed a great counter that might have Itachi on the ropes.

      Ninja of War: I'm curious as to how you think Orochimaru would provide backup for Konan and Kimimaro.

      I honestly don't know. We only seen him fight with his edo's once and he pretty much kicked back that entire fight until the end. I don't know if Orochimaru would even put himself in danger against Itachi. It honestly depends on the version, is this current Orochimaru or Shippuden prior to the war?

      Ninja of War: Also what would Itachi's strategy be?

      Itachi seems inconsistent to me. He was able to one shot Deidara, but doesn't really try to do so with anyone else really. Idk how Itachi will approach his opening move, however i know he's going to want to remove Kimi and Kon from the equation. The only way he can do that, is incapacitate with Genjutsu (but is countered by the strategy you said above), or being forced to use his Susano'o for the Totsuka blade to seal them. I don't really see anything else in his arsenal that would rid him of Edo's.

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    • Itachi's fighting style is either to continuously barrage ninjutsu and shuriken ninjutsu or to use genjutsu followed up by a finishing blow. To see how he uses ninjutsu, reference his first fight with kakashi, which should give you insight into how he can actually fight, and is the most reliable marker because this is how kishimoto established him. The way i see he it, he casted hand seals inside his robe and then sheathed his shurikens. the water technique was cast first, and his shadow clone jutsu was rigged to form behind kakashi in the event he survived the water attack. He is then clever enough to use substitution with his exploding shadow clone to put kakashi and kurenai in harm's way. That said, itachi is a 1v1 combat specialist, where genjutsu is one of his most powerful assets here, given that going against the sharingan 1v1 can be suicide.

      As for itachi's previous "fight" with oro, I think he casted the genjutsu immediately after oro captured him with the snakes. We know he didn't use susano'o in that fight, as oro didn't know itachi had mirror and totsuka blade until the fight with hebi sasuke. I'm pretty sure that 3 tomoe itachi was portrayed to be able to capture orochimaru in genjutsu and then one shot him with ease if he wanted to, defeating him in two moves. oro may have tried to break it, but it's clear that itachi always capitalizes on the moment his opponent is bound by genjutsu, he did the same thing to kurenai.


      Itachi has already seen through kidomaru's bone attack, so it's gonna take some creativity for him to be tagged by that, when SM kabuto failed to do so.

      Honestly, 1v1 I don't see how orochimaru deals with itachi. even if you restrict genjutsu, orochimaru, while decent at misdirection, doesn't seem to have the tools necessary to deal with itachi's tactics if itachi fights remotely similiar to how he fought p1 kakashi. Itachi has shown the ability to teleport clones behind his opponent. So grand fireball jutsu as a feint then exploding shadow clone following suit from behind, as secondary feint, then totsuka blade as per canon to finish oro off.

      With edo teammates however, itachi's regular genjutsu will be hard to pin down anyone, so only useful as feints. but itachi is smart enough honestly to use susano'o to ignore most of kona's and kidomaru's attacks, and I think he will focus most of his attention on oro. Konan's best strategy it seems was weaponizing papers and then throwing paper bombs at her opponent, but i don't see those attacks breaching susano'o. Actually, her explosions will backfire, as those create smokescreens, and we saw what happened to nagato when he created a smokescreen. I think the totsuka blade's speed is underestimated, because people cite nagato's lack of mobility, while seeming to forget he has a nifty technique called shinra tensei. The fact he couldn't use it in time, or even activate preta, shows that the blade is fast. orochimaru also didn't seem to mentally react to the blade until after it struck him, so yeah... I feel itachi is the suoerior tactician and more skilled at diversions too.

      Also, itachi doesn't need to spam susano'o, he can use shunshin to manuever, and keep susano'o on when he gets into a pinch and use it for offense and defense, then deactivate it when it's necessary. he can intelligently conserve stamina this way.

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    • @Lone

      This is Boruto era Orochimaru, sorry if that wasn't clear.

      @Combat

      Well, from what we've seen, Itachi likes to win fights before they even start. This will be hard for him in this case due to edo intervention. I don't think Itachi would continuously barrage Orochimaru's group with ninjutsu, he would be more strategic, trying to separate the edos.

      What are your thoughts on how Orochimaru will provide backup and how Itachi will deal with multiple opponents?

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    • If Oro has access to the KG and techniques Kabuto had access to, Oro still wins.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Yeah I know what you mean. When I say barrage , I of course mean that itachi will do it meticulously and carefully. He is always using misdirection/feints when he fights, he isn't a spammer, each attack optimizes the next attack. He quickly weaved the signs for two ninjutsu in his robe but he uses shuriken to cover his tracks, and an inexperienced enemy would just focus on the shuriken. But he knew kakashi wasn't inexperienced, so he waited to see how kakashi would defend himself. Kakashi being smart, chose a 360 degree wall to cover all angles, since he didn't know exactly was coming, but even that was a diversion, to lead kakashi into exploding shadow clone. If kakashi wasn't an expert clone feinter himself, and wasn't smart enough to try to steal back control of the fight by sneaking his real self under water and distracting itachi with a water clone, he would have died there. But that plan failed due to itachi's continued assault, and he was tipped off that the real kakashi was underwater. he then chained a substiution jutsu it seems. and then detonated the clone. But my other point here is that notice that while itachi was strictly fighting kakashi "1v1 here" , itachi didn't ignore kurenai, he had things setup so that if she interfered, she would die as well or be injured by his attack. And he didn't worry about asuma because kisame had him covered. so even with multiple opponents, he is always scheming and using creativity to lure them into traps, and he seems to utilize clones/subsitution to that effect pretty well

      So in a 3v1 fight, I think itachi's best course of action, if we were to restrict genjutsu for a second, would be to line up orochimaru and his edo tensei summons like the planets, as that's his quickest way to win without wasting stamina. He would meticulously try to overlay his attacks such that they are forced to line up in a straight line, then run them through with the totsuka blade. He likes to end the fight before it begins, no doubt, but even he realizes that that ins't always possible. Genjutsu is typically how he does it, but in this case genjutsu is not as effective. Plus, this is a fair battle and itachi's opponents should be smart enough to not willingly look in his eyes, so there is that lol. His best tactic with the genjutsu though could be tsukuyomi though, because he is smart enough to know that regular genjutsu would just be released by partner method, and he would have to use that as a feint. He can use 3 tsuykuyomi as per canon before experiencing significant eye effects to the point that he should deactivate his sharingan. He could easily achieve this with the grand fireball technique, and when used by his 30 percent version, it caused a fairly big smokescreen. Even if orochimaru blocks it with water style, that would simply cause steam to form. Once the smoke screen clears, he is probably clever enough to catch one of them off guard with it, since I don't think any of them are sensor types. I personally think he would aim for orochimaru, because i don't know how tsyukyomi interacts with edo tensei. He can also use the cheaper crow clones as diversions, as even those clones were capable of casting genjutsu and ninjutsu, and when they dissipate they further distract the enemy by turning into a flock of crows. I think is in IC as well, because before the fight with hebi sasuke, he used two crow clones, one to seek out sasuke and tell him where to find him, and one to put kotoamutskami in naruto. He then also used a third clone in the same day during his fight against sasuke, so yeah.


      So once the smokescreen comes up, I see him making two crow clones plus himself and using strategic positioning and manuevers to gain the advantage, trying to catch oro in tsyukyomi, crow clones divert kimiaro and konan's attention while he flanks them. susano'o can block any last ditch effort attack they try to use as well. If he is successful his crow clones should buy enough time for him to blitz them with totsuka blade. those same crow clones/crow subsitutions were capable of distracting a perfect sage in kabuto yakushi. If anything he could probably use amaterasu on one of them, because idk that konan or kimimaro has the speed feats to avoid it and while one is distracted by that, use totsuka on the other, then come back to finish the job. I think this is doable, because itachi should be faster than each of these shinobi individually too. Let me know what you think. I currently feel like itachi simply has better speed, reflexes , hax, and combat intelligence then these 3, though the victory will be very chakra taxing for him, so i say it's a high difficulty fight.


      Edit: forgot to include how orochimaru would react. I think he would keep his distance. to minimize the chance of seeing itachi's eyes. the edo tensei would keep themselves close to him, in order to user partner method more effectively and they would play mid-range to stop. Kimimiaro can do this with his bone attacks, as they are ranged and also can exploit the weakness of susano'o by attacking from underground. Konan could follow up this attack with her own paper shurikens. Orochimaru could use his own elemental ninjutsu and snake ninjutsu as well, all effective LOS blockers to avoid eye contact. I think it's their best option to stay close and move as a group if they need to. Their best chance is to use their techniques in unison, and pressure itachi to move around and maintain susano'o and outlast him basically. If orochimaru can use everything Sage mode kabuto could, then itachi would simply focus more on his ninjutsu tactics, which I think people sleep on. Itachi only struggled with SM kabuto because he couldn't go for the kill, so the only jutsu he could use was izanami. and even then he was cutting off his horns, imagine if sasuke's sword was the totsuka blade, it would have been a wrap, then and there lol. Orochimaru has intel on izanami, so orochimaru would realize it when itachi is baiting him into using the same moves over and over, but it doesn't mean he has an answer to itachi's ninjutsu combo's + totuska blade, which i think itachi would use first rather than sacrifice an eye IC.

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    • Arkangel08
      Arkangel08 removed this reply because:
      gdfssg
      16:38, September 15, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • I've never seen Itachi really end a fight before it began except once against Deidara and maybe some fodder.

      Kimimaro counters Itachi's Susanoo with his Dance of the Seedling Fern. Being edo counters his Taijutsu and Bukijutsu. Itachi is perfectly countered in this match up.

      He uses Shuriken? Don't work on Edo's and Orochimaru can definitely dodge his Shuriken if he can keep up with Kyubi Cloaked Naruto.

      Taijutsu? Kimimaro holds the advantage with his various dances. Konan can easily avoid him with her paper technique and maybe hit him with a few explosions. He won't get to Orochimaru if he can't get passed them, and even then Orochimaru can avoid with Hiding in Surface Technique.

      Genjutsu? Multiple teammates as Ninja pointed out, counters this.

      Ninjutsu? Nothing but his Mangekyo abilities are really effective against the Edo's. If he uses Susanoo he is killed by Kimimaro. Amaterasu isn't effective since it can't kill, harm, or hurt anyone of them. Totsuka blade needs Susanoo.

      I think Orochimaru wins this with Mid difficulty. Itachi is strong and smart. But the same can be said about Orochimaru and he has two very powerful and smart edo's. Itachi will likely find he isn't going to have his way with them. Against Orochimaru, sure. Konan and Kimimaro are no push overs. Konan especially. I don't see any attacks from Itachi landing on her except Genjutsu.

      As for Orochimaru helping. I think he doesn't except to help them break free from Genjutsu. I know his healing factor is on another level and that he has enough power to control Tobirama. But other than that, his powers at this point in time are mysterious. Does he have all Zetsu's abilities? Does he have Sage Mode now cause he obtained a body and the reason he couldn't use it was cause of his body? Can he use Wood Release? These questions are possibilities that are unanswered. So until we get a showing on Orochimaru, I think he'd steer clear from Itachi due to how Itachi outplays him whenever it's a 1v1. So he's more a liability to his edo's if he is involved in anything other than helping break free from Genjutsu.

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    • @LoneNinja,

      Itachi has already countered/seen that bone jutsu, so he isn't getting tagged by it without a good diversion. when the bones start erupting out of the ground he can simply jump in the air, use susano'o to block any attacks while he is in the air, then land on the bones. That technique also has a huge area of effect, and kimimaro has allies here. Don't see it being effective.

      Amaterasu can definitely pin down edos. It won't kill but the edo tensei won't be fighting anymore unless they can dispel the flames like nagato did. they would get tagged by totuska blade afterward.

      Itachi is smarter and faster than each of them. What speed feats does konan have? she couldn't even evade jiraiya's oil bomb. She has decent tactics but that was against obito who has a limited arsenal. Itachi does it better. her attacks are countered by katon and susano'o. I doubt she can even react to amaterasu or tostuka blade due to non existent speed feats.

      also, Itachi doesn't fight the way you described. He is facing edo tensei here so he is smart enough to pull out his big guns, he did so against Nagato. He also overlays his attacks. He doesn't do one attack at a time, he is always guiding his opponent and looking for any gaps in their experience to exploit. He has shown to use the same mindset shikamaru does: the first attack is the diversion, the second is the real one. Orochimaru also can't react to the totsuka blade as per canon. Itachi didn't even use a diversion when he launched it at him during the fight with sasuke and it hit with ease. Orochimaru knows what to expect this time around, which simply means itachi will use a diversion to land it.

      Orochimaru plays around too much when he fights. He is experienced and competent and powerful, but his intelligence isn't at all as a strategist, his intelligence is in the biology lab. His best tactic in battle is catching people off guard with oral rebirth.

      Itachi ends the fight before it begins in every battle when he isn't jobbing. His fighting style means that once he takes initiative, he doesn't let you gain back control easily. It's just a matter of when he finally tags you, unless you can outsmart him. He doesn't always makes the first move, but when he does a make move he is skilled at breaking down the opponent's defenses such that his attack lands.

      Kurenai, reversed her genjutsu, then didn't stand there looking pretty, he immediately pressured her and outdid her in taijutsu. even followed her on to the water so she couldn't initiate another counter-attack.

      -kakashi, shuriken feint, water-style feint, exploding shadow clone+ subsitution feint, then finally tsukyomi. kakashi had no time to actually launch an offense manuever ( his one attempt was countered easily), he was on the defensive the whole time. - deidara, this deidara was highly inexperienced, so genjutsu gg.

      -orochimaru, round one. genjutsu gg plus kunai slash to armgg. -orochimaru, round 2, totsuka blade gg. -nagato- amaterasu gg. After that, itachi suffers from PIS so that we can see how strong nagato is in dealing with two perfect jins. Itachi then saves naruto and bee, he devised strategy to counter chibaku tensei. one shots with totsuka blade. The battle literally ends before it begins once he starts fighting offensively. Itachi is calculated, aggressive, and fast in his approach to battle. This is what defines the guy.


      Orochimaru can beat itachi just not with these edo tensei imo.

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    • @Combat

      Seems like your opinion is biased for various reasons.

      1) You automatically gave Itachi insight on who Kimimaro is. Giving him the knowledge that Kimimaro's ability was the one that allowed Kabuto to summon bones from the ground when Kabuto never mentioned it to him.

      2) You gave Itachi the ability to dodge the attack and used his knowledge on a lower scale version. Just look at the page that i linked and anyone can say that what Kabuto did was minuscule to what Kimimaro did.

      3) Then you gave Itachi the ability to expect it despite it being a off guard kind of technique.

      4) Then you slowed Konan's speed, someone who was fighting Obito just fine. A guy known to keep up with speedsters.

      5) Then you said Amaterasu incapacitates her, despite her being able to split apart at will. Amaterasu is a single target move, can't do much against thousands of papers.

      6) Then you downplay Orochimaru. Obviously when he was struck Orochimaru showed he didn't care at first. As if he didn't care for the sword to strike him. He was also just revived with no actual host for him. He was also in the mouth of a giant snake head. So many things that went into that strike and so many reasons why Orochimaru might not have dodged it. He didn't think he had to. He might have been in a weakened state. He might not have the ability to move out of the way until exiting the snake's mouth. Or other reasons that could easily explain that. You downplay him hard.

      Itachi is strong, but stronger than 3 S Class Shinobi with one being Hokage level? I mean I considered Obito Hokage Level and Konan was just about even with him. Itachi is Hokage level. He isn't far beyond the Hokage's terms of power. Therefore, against this team, i have zero doubt he should lose. The fact is Genjutsu is his main arsenal and that is greatly weakened in this fight. So he is weakened in this fight. Then Mangekyo usages do more harm then good and he's limited on them.

      Not saying you are biased. But you make yourself seem that way when you greatly downplay Shinobi who said to be powerful. Konan is by no means a joke.

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    • 1) Itachi is known for his insight in battle, another defining quality. Kimimaro is also made of bones . How exactly does that technique one shot itachi when pre time-skip gaara reacted to it? Itachi has also seen his face before, because he literally saw kimimaro's face on sage kabuto's chest. So why exactly wouldn't he recognize him? The technique has already been seen through. It was used on a smaller scale before, but the bigger scale doesn't make it uncounterable. Kimimiaro has allies in this fight, and despite the area of effect the technique was countered by non-hokage level opponents in the past. Gaara was able to fly, sure, but nothing says itachi can't just run on the bones. And what happens when kimimaro uses that technique while orochimaru is trying to send snakes at itachi? there would be a ton of friendly fire. You haven't refuted my counter to it. Many S class shinobi can evade that attack, hence why I said Team Oro needs a diversion for it to land. It's deadly and useful, but you made it seem like kimimaro resolving it is a guaranteed win.


      2) Where was konan's speed exactly? She got one shotted by one technique from jiraiya that she failed to dodge. She also didn't show any speed feats against obito. I can recite that fight from memory. she threw paper shurikens, obito phased through. Obito then stood in one spot . Konan flew at him and threw papers and paper bombs. Obito still stood in the same spot, and caught her by the neck. Then the bombs detonated. So, where was her speed feat there exactly? After that, she split the ocean. She detonated more paper bombs. Then she straight up got blitzed by obito and put under genjutsu. She didn't keep up in speed. I didn't slow her speed, I asked for actual speed feats, as I've seen none. The strengths shown was her planning and tactical mind, which itachi already beats her in.


      4) I said that if Itachi used amaterasu on Konan herself, she wouldn't be able to react based on feats. Turning into paper after the fact doesn't solve the problem as all the papers would continue to burn. Sure, if she turns into paper beforehand, then it won't work. We don't have enough information to know how the totuska blade interacts with her when she is in her 1,000 paper form. we know she isn't completely immortal in that form because she was nearly killed by her own paper bombs against Tobi.



      6) Orochimaru mentally reacted to the blade after it already struck him. After it struck him, he assumed the attack was fodder. Nothing indicates he actually mentally reacted to the blade beforehand. Why? look at his dialouge. Orochimaru was in the middle of his sentence, and the last word he said was defeat, then he got stabbed, then he said "you". do you know quickly the human voice can utter words in a sentence? and itachi literally caught him in between words. You also see the question mark by orochimaru, showing he was clearly surprised at the speed of the blade. This time around, he knows about the blade so he has the ability to predict it, which gives him a better chance of avoiding it. My proof that that blade is ridiculously fast is that Nagato, the same dude who can react to rasenshurikens couldn't activate preta path/shinra tensei in time to repel the blade. Just because it tagged immobile opponents doesn't mean they actually mentally reacted to it, the evidence suggests they couldn't.

      7) common misconception. Itachi is a ninja versed in all fields of combat, ninjutsu, taijutsu, weapons, and genjutsu. He is a prodigy when it comes to all 3. There is a reason why I keep citing his fight with kakashi in part one, because it's the easiest fight to reference where we can see what he is capable of with ninjutsu tactics, though you can still see it in fights even when he was jobbing or limited by circumstances. Al He clearly is skilled and intelligent in the use of ninjutsu/weapons tactics, one of the best we have seen, from his ability to spawn clones in your blindspot from who knows where, to using diversions and misdirection to confuse you about the true nature of his attacks, to creating a blindspot in the RINNEGAN's shared vision. He makes up for raw power with the strategic use of his attacks. Itachi is a preferred pacficist, and has low stamina, hence his preference for genjutsu since it can subdue the enemy quickly and efficiently without killing and all he has to do is take initiative. Nothing says his power is gone once you take away his genjutsu. His real power is strategic mind and the ability to read his opponents actions, predict them, then counter them effectively.


      MS usages allow him to finish the fight quicker. Totsuka blade is still a one shot kill for each opponent. Itachi can use 3 MS techniques before experiencing significant strain as per canon. that corresponds to 3 amaterasu. Sick Itachi used several amaterasu during his fight with sasuke, used a tsukyomi, 3 crow clones, several genjutsu, then susano'o for several minutes. If he sticks to MS for finishers then he would be extremely strained afterward but still alive if he is healthy for this fight. Susano'o usage is a concern. but Itachi knows how to fight efficiently, I cited many battles, even ones where he wasn't using genjutsu, where he was able to end the fight before it began with a simple diversion, sometimes without it. Hence why I said he could win with high difficulty, he won't be any condition to fight anymore after it's all said and done.

      If you feel what I said is biased, then provide some counters to these points. I didn't feel I was biased, because I asked actual good questions, like these speed feats for konan, or how itachi loses to a technique he has already seen which grants him the ability to enact a counter-measure when he sees it a second time. or why there is a misconception that itachi is "weakened" without genjutsu. Sure his genjutsu is very limited here and he can't just gg anyone with it, so he is limited, but His genjutsu isn't as restricted as one might think here. Partner method is still a reactionary counter. we don't know how tsukyomi would interact with edo tensei. Partner method also requires his opponents to be close by to each other, and his strategy would be to separate them. Itachi would only need genjutsu to create a temporary opening for the totsuka blade. And to recap, itachi is still highly versatile even without genjutsu.

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    • 1) First off, Itachi did not see Kimimaro's face. There was a wall of Amaterasu between them. That is the main reason Itachi was cut off from his sentence of asking if Sasuke was alright when Tatsuya was used and they were caught in Genjutsu right after Kimimaro was used. Sasuke and Itachi could not see him cause they put a wall of black flames between them and him when the webs were used. Secondly, the one Kimimaro utilized is twenty times better than the one Kabuto used. It conjured tens of thousands of bones. Bones that sprout out in multiple directions and isn't just a single straight bone which means "walking" on them isn't an option when the bones are more like tree branches in the way they are formed. Even Lee needed to be saved, someone who is very fast. They're sharp to shred anyone who comes in contact with them. And they form high up dozens of feet in the air becoming a forest of blades. The reason why I'm so sure it will work is because A) How will he know such a wide range technique is happening until it happens when he isn't even aware of the ground. B) I only see this being used when Susanoo is used since it's the biggest counter technique for it. If Gaara's sand can catch Madara off guard, I see no reason this won't catch Itachi off guard especially when Kabuto used something similar on Itachi and easily wrecked him utilizing Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation which wasn't even on the scale of the Bone forest Kimimaro can erect. Then there's the contingency he can turn into any one of the bones should they not finish the job. Thus providing a strike from behind.

      2) Seeing how both tried to outsmart Obito and one succeeded and the other didn't, Konan proves to be the better tactician. She did something Itachi failed to do. Hit Obito, multiple times. Even without the thousand of explosions, when he went to suck her into Kamui, she blew him up a little according to him. Then her well thought out plan that exploited Obito's every weakness that even Itachi failed to find out. So yea. Itachi definitely doesn't beat her in planning and being a tactician. So again, quit downplaying her by saying things the manga showed otherwise. The best example is how they went about Obito. One succeeded in a way that he had to use Izanagi, the other did not.

      3) As shown Amaterasu flames burn very slow compared to regular fire. So slow, Ay wasn't even tripping for a few instances and after a few words were spoken, then he proceeded to remove his hand. Konan was burned by Jiraiya in her paper form and she came out unscathed, I see no reason why she can't do the same with Amaterasu. She utilizes Chakra to create and shape paper as well as turn into paper. I doubt Amaterasu will work on someone who can split themselves apart and replace any lost paper.

      4) And there's no proof that the blade is instant as you seem to suggest. Or fast. It's just a sword. All it does is seal and be a sword. The Susanoo is what swings and thrusts it. Therefore, Orochimaru just has to react to the Susanoo which I'm sure he can do. Whatever happened in that instance is dandy and all, but plenty of people could react to a Susanoo. As I said, Orochimaru lacked a lot of things. You can't sit here and say Orochimaru was at 100%. You can't say he cared if he got hit. You can't say he could move out of the way. You can't even say if the drool that was all over him was in his eyes or not. So that isn't a feat. Orochimaru reacted and kept up with Kyubi cloaked Naruto. I'm sure he can react and dodge a swing from Susanoo.

      5) His fight with Kakashi in part 1 is kind of irrelevant. In every regard part 1 Kakashi fails to measure up to the ability these three can dish out and the intelligence they possess.

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    • 1)

      Still haven't refuted any of my main points here. pre-time skip Gaara reacted to the technique without any prior knowledge, enough said. if he couldn't react he wouldn't have had time to rise into the sky and save lee as well. ABC logic with gaara's sand doesn't work, as that sand was amplified by ohnoki. Don't see how gaara's amplified sand = kimimaro's bones, plus madara wasn't expecting the sand to get so fast, he had no trouble avoiding it before hand, notice how gaara never pulled that trick on him again, enough said. And not to mention, madara was already standing on the sand, which is way different than bones disturbing the ground and fissuring it, which can be heard/ seen beforehand. Still haven't addressed friendly fire from the technique. Like I said, if gaara had the common sense to jump, so can itachi. he can use susano'o in the air to prevent himself from being impaled, then land on a safe-haven bone. Ninjas are literally trained in the ability to move on trees and other objects, it can be done. You just assume itachi is inexperienced enough to just stand there and use susano'o when he has experience seeing bones erupting out of the ground all over the place. He is a mobile opponent and can jump. The technique is clearly deadly and a threat, but not something uncounterable by itachi. hence, why team oro needs to a bit more creative to actually land that technique on him. Itachi speficially failed to react to the inorganic renamiation because he used up that time protecting sasuke. he would have dealt with it accordingly without being distracted. I feel like you aren't giving the appropriate credit to itachi's abilities here.

      2)um, what now? OBito underestimated her. He knew she was preparing a trap yet walked right into it. Doesn't show a speed feat from konan. Shows her tactics, which I've stated multiple times to be good, so this is beating a dead horse, and is no grounds to call me biased. Konan better tactician than itachi? seriously? She used a suicide attack instead of using a clone to take the fall for her, and it still failed. By your logic itachi is at minimum just as competent because amaterasu actually landed on obito (and the dude wasn't even alive, we are talking about itachi in death here, and yet you are comparing to that to konan in actual battle, where she has more attempts to enact a win-condition), forcing him to use izanagi (there is no proof that kamui was used to remove the flames), whereas konan's initial attack took away an arm, but still left obito in fighting condition. The dude had no trouble sacrificing his own arm against fuu and torune. She also overextended her hand, using a big technique that wasted all her chakra, despite having prep time, and doing "many simulations". guess those simulations didn't account for the fact that she would be defenseless after the technique was completed. She analyzed kamui because she observed obito specifically for years, and she still assumed that the great "madara uchiha" was a one trick pony, and that's how she ended up being countered and outsmarted. Itachi's goals were different. his main priority was protecting sasuke from the darkness. He first planted amaterasu in his eyes. obito countered it whatever, most likely using izanagi there too ironically, given that obito admitted he would have been dead otherwise if itachi knew whatever additional scecret he had. itachi is dead at that point, nothing he could do, except he had a contingency. Kotoamatsukami crow in naruto. Obito didn't see that one coming, now did he? Obito would have been outsmarted by itachi in terms of his goals to manipulate sasuke if not for kabuto reviving itachi, enough said. And even ignoring this, itachi has shown better in-battle intelligence and wisdom feats than konan, don't see how this is even debatable. Itachi's goal wasn't to kill obito in the same way that konan did. Konan opted for a straight up battle, albeit with prep time, and still failed. Itachi simply didn't want obito manipulating sasuke, and he set two traps, and while the first one failed, the second one would have succeeded. Itachi actually had a backup plan in case his first one failed, whereas Konan literally overextended to the absolute limit, both times. All those years of observation then enough prep time to do simulations and she couldn't come up with a plan that didn't invlove A, killing herself, or B, exhausting ALL her stamina and leaving herself defenseless? Konan is being overrated in this department, she is good but not on itachi's level. ITachi had the foresight to know Obito would give sasuke itachi's eyes and then have sasuke fight naruto. It was itachi who foresaw all of obito's moves in the end, not the otherway around. Itachi clearly knew it was possible for "madara" to escape the amaterasu. If itachi felt the amaterasu trap was enough, then there would be no need to give naruto shisui's eyes, as obito would have died and sasuke wouldn't have learned the truth and wouldn't have turned on konoha. So no, Konan isn't better than itachi at tactics. Itachi, even in death, was scheming and succeeding, whereas konan had multiple tries to enact her win condition against obito and failed to get the job done and didn't even optimize her own moves.


      3) Amaterasu burned through the fire-resistant toad stomach instantly. Amaterasu burning slowly only happens for plot purposes. it engulfed the eight tails pretty fast, also itachi killed nagato's cerberus summon fairly quickly. And now amaterasu is being compared to mere katon? c'mon


      4) Did I say the blade was instant? No I didn't. But faster than orochimaru's reaction time, yes. You could see the question mark in his dialouge, indicating surprise.Him being able to move or not is irrelevant when he clearly failed to register a mental reaction to the blade. Orochimaru has to predict the blade to avoid it, can he do so? yes. So itachi will have to outsmart him to land it, which is within his area of expertise. comparing the totuska blade to kn4 naruto is baseless, because the same dude who could react to kn6 naruto couldn't react to the blade with his signature moves-preta path, shinra tensei, enough said. It's clear that the speed of susano'o's thrust with the blade is fast.


      5) Sure it is. We are gonna ignore the clear feats of itachi's intelligence with clone feints and ninjutsu tactics? Kakashi by his own admssion admitted that that what itachi showed there was "barely half " of what he could actually do with ninjutsu and stuff. So a jobbing 3 tomoe itachi literally outsmarted kakashi with his tactics and didn't leave himself open to any attacks from kakashi. Itachi is clearly on par with shikamaru when it comes to tactics like that, and argubaly better because shikamaru needs time to sit and think. And I'd argue that kakashi is a better tactician than konan is. kakashi figured out the weakness of kamui in less time and coordinated the use of kamui multiple times with allies and outsmarted obito several times, obito only lived due to his durability. they both had the tools to take on their opponent, and kakashi did it better. Obito knew what kakashi was capable of with the other kamui and was still outsmarted.

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    • 1) Lol. See this is why you are coming off biased. You're giving Itachi the ability to react just because Gaara reacted to a buried barely alive Kimimaro with no sensory skills and activated it from underground and from Lee's perspective, from afar. Then the irrefutable fact that he came up behind Gaara and even his sand didn't have time to react due to how much of a surprise attack it was. You can say Itachi this and this. Don't matter. If Itachi uses Susanoo. Kimimaro uses this. He dies. You have no proof he doesn't. He failed to dodge Inorganic. He has 0 knowledge on Kimimaro except maybe his name. And what did Itachi do to dodge the minuscule version? Oh wait he didn't. He used Susanoo to cut them. What happens when he does so again, against the wide range version? As he goes to slash, one rises from the ground and hits him. You say he's going to jump? He didn't jump last time, he ain't going to jump now.

      2) Lol. So now you're going to downplay Konan? Feats > Statements. Konan landed a hit on Obito. Outsmarted him. He just outpowered her. Itachi couldn't outsmart Obito once and if he could have done a better job than Konan, he would've since anything better than what Konan did would be killing him. It's stated Itachi planned out his attack on Obito. He planned out everything. Just as Konan did. The difference, Konan actually hurt Obito and almost killed him. Meanwhile, Itachi failed to even realize Obito had Kamui. The feat speaks for itself. Konan did what Itachi could not. Her tactics proved better. You ain't convincing me otherwise due to the fact if Itachi could have killed Obito, he would have.

      3) Only once did Amaterasu engulf an entire being fast (Killer Bee's tentacle disguised as Gyuki). That could be debated, since he was a big target therefore Sasuke could use a wide spread attack of Amaterasu. It has engulfed slowly more than it has fast. Therefore it is a slow engulfing technique and the wiki even states this "For all its lethal potential, Amaterasu burns fairly slowly, allowing targets to remove burning clothes before their body is caught ablaze or, if it's too late for that, remove the burning body part(s) before it spreads.[13]". Therefore if Konan is hit, she just turns into paper and replaces the paper that are caught on fire. You can keep downplaying her all you want but Amaterasu is not going to even catch 50% of the dozen papers on fire. You also missed the point on Jiraiya. She was hit by a blast of flames while partially in paper form. Though some of her papers were destroyed by the fire, she came out just fine. Why? Cause she can replace burned paper.

      4) So Susanoo is faster than Chakra Cloaked Naruto? Doubt it. Therefore he can be dodged. A simple Flicker would allow anyone to dodge it. I haven't seen any real speed feats from any Susanoo to the degree you're going on. So by that logic, I can use the argument you've been using and say it was all plot.


      5) Part 1 Kakashi wasn't even close to being on par with part 1 Orochimaru. Even he knew it when he coward in fear before him. Enough said.

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    • 1) Already debunked this. Itachi didn't jump last time because he didn't need to, common sense. If the technique is greater in scale, a different adaption will be used. All I see here is fallacy and making itachi out to be some inexperienced character. Sure, nerf his intelligence and he loses the way you described. Give him is IC intelligence, he jumps in the air, protects himself with susano'o, chops off some bones and lands on them safely. Kimimaro isn't surprising him without a diversion. All I see is more ABC logic here, like Itachi being slower than pre-time skip gaara , despite having a MS and better reflex feats and generally being portrayed to be a of a much higher speed tier. Prime Kimimaro is featless with the jutsu because we haven't seen him at full health, so this is pure speculation. and you ignored the fact that the gaara was caught off guard because he presumed his target to be already dead, not to mention he couldn't have seen kimimaro crawling into the bones when the dude is 200 meters below ground. Sure, it can catch itachi off guard in the right circumstance, but I could just as easily use the fallacy that Itachi one shots him with totsuka blade before he activates the technique. So, please give a credible strategy for how Team oro is gonna land this technique, not to mention, you still haven't addressed the friendly fire argument. The bones still portrude out of the ground and itachi had no troubles with muki tensei outside of being distracted.

      2) I don't need to convince you of anything, because your claim is false. You have no proof that itachi didn't know about kamui, nor do you have any proof that kamui was used to stop the amaterasu, as he was clearly already tagged by the attack, and then faded into the darkness. Obito would not commend itachi if he didn't feel that the attack was well excecuted. You can even see obito wallowing in pain from the amaterasu, so yes itachi injured him. He could have just as easily used izanagi there retroactively. All I know is this. Itachi's goal: stop obito from manipulating sasuke. Itachi knew that obito would approach sasuke after itachi's death. Itachi knew that obito would reveal his sharingan to sasuke. Itachi knew that obito might survive and still tell sasuke the truth, and so he placed a contingency inside of naruto. Period. The plan would have worked if not for third party intervention, Obito didn't see through it. and obito didn't "overpower" her. He outwitted her with izanagi. Konan didn't see it coming, so she was outsmarted despite her years of observation and prep. Your logic that he overpowered her can be thrown back, because I can simply say she overwhelmed him with tons of bombs. so that excuse doesn't work. Itachi actually foresaw obito surviving his attack, while konan didn't, enough said. And there is also no proof that itachi had access to the same information that konan did. Even if he didn't know as much about kamui, his contingency plan covered that scenario. Also, that itachi would have killed obito if he could have is another fallacy, he never tried once to kill any of the akatsuki members, that much is obvious. Obito can easily stall him out with kamui, or almost anyone for that matter.If he tried to engage obito nothing said it would be a 1v1 battle. Itachi did his job, protected konoha for 16 years before the akatsuki started making their moves, and only after most of the bijuu were captured and only when he was nearing his death, was Pain allowed to destroy konoha. At that point, itachi's love for sasuke and desire to die took over, but he made sure that naruto had gained significant development. Even so, he replicated the same thing konan did, injuring but failing to kill obito, when it wasn't even his primary objective.

      No one is downplaying konan, her plan , while good and effective, had flaws in it. Using a suicide attack instead of using a clone instead, and if her suicide attack failed she wouldn't have even gotten the chance to use her 600 billion paper bombs, making her prep worthless. >wasting all her chakra on one big attack instead of leaving some behind as a contingency. Period. Her best tactic outside of her 600 billion bombs was one diversion, paper bombs hidden within other papers. That's nice. Jobbing itachi showed more complexity. He used a water style jutsu and concealed it by using shuriken to draw his opponent's attention, and that's not much different than konan concealing paper bombs within her regular papers. And then guess what actually, even THAT was a diversion for his great clone explosion. and according to kakashi, itachi was capable of much more. Itachi easily could have replicated what konan did against tobi, he clearly has more going on when it comes to tactics and diversions. He used diversions within diversions, while jobbing, while the best konan could do is kamikaze herself after using one diversion. Enough said.

      3) already debunked. I cited a character reacting to kn6 naruto-Nagato. That same nagato couldn't react to the totsuka blade from a decent distance. The smoke was clearing and there was already a good distance between himself and the smoke, and he still couldn't react with Preta Path or shinra tensei, period. He saw it coming and couldn't react. So yes, totsuka blade is faster than kn6 naruto.


      4) You say that I come across as biased and yet you cite PIS stupidity feats/statements. Amaterasu upon it's introduction instantly burned through a fire resistant toad stomach from mount myoboku. Period. Any feat that contradicts that is an outlier. I go by established feats, not low end-outliers. I'm supposed to believe amaterasu could burn through that, but can't burn through mere clothes in under a second? The 8 tails and cerberus retained the proper feats for amaterasu. everything else is plot, except where it was specifically shown that amaterasu couldn't burn through the target, such as gaara's sand or chakra cloaks. If konan anticipates it, i see her subsituting with papers sure, but not if she doesn't react. Nothing says she is perfectly immortal in that form, as she nearly died to her own paper bombs. The flames could easily kill her in the right circumstances by burning through the papers before she gets a chance to de-materialize her self completely.


      5) Nowwhere was it stated that kakashi wasn't on par with orochimaru due to a difference in tactics. The gap between them simply could have been due to stat differences, plus orochimaru's durability. we saw how easily orochimaru countered a chidori attack from sasuke on his death bed, so logically he could easily counter raikiri from part one kakashi with snake hax/oral rebirth and then one shot kakashi. So you're abc logic doesn't work. Shikamaru is smarter than a lot of characters yet would still lose to them. and I like how you use part one kakashi as a moniker, as if the character underwent significant changes. He gained more experience and gained stat boosts and improvements in ninjutsu, but nothing showed incredible changes. His fighting style and tactics in part two largely resembled what he was already capable of in part one. And undermining kakashi doesn't change the quality of tactics itachi was shown using, period.

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    • 1) Firstly, you haven't debunked anything. You haven't shown me one feat of Itachi jumping from a similar attack. Secondly. He didn't jump the first time, he won't the second. He didn't have too? Sorry not credible seeing as that's only based off your opinion. Has Itachi ever even jumped while in Susanoo? The reason I haven't answered your question of friendly fire is because I don't need too. Why would Orochimaru be near Itachi? And why would Konan die from an attack like that? She's an edo who has Shikigami. Enough said.

      2) I can say the same as you, your claim is false. The difference between the two is my claim comes from the Manga. We seen Konan actually go all out against one person. And in that instance she did something no one could do alone. She forced Obito to use Izanagi. If the situation was reversed, Itachi wouldn't have even took a finger from Obito even with Prep time. Enough said.

      3) Don't even need to address this since you made it up. Shown in the anime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8zdqr9-_Qc and in the Manga Chapter 551. Susanoo was covered in smoke as Nagato was struck. Can't react to what you can't see.

      4) Now my statements are stupid? Yikes. I can understand when fans don't want their character to lose, but going as low to insult another is just distasteful. Relax, it's just a debate. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Moving forward. Just because you chose one feat as the best feat doesn't mean anything. Majority accept that Amaterasu is slow. The wiki even states it. Using part 1 isn't viable no more. Everything from part 2 debunks anything from Part 1. Therefore until Kishimoto himself shows otherwise, then it ain't true. Amaterasu couldn't burn through Gaara's sand. Ay's arm. Samurai's armor. Karin's cloak. Don't get me wrong, it has shown some impressive feats at times. But majority has shown it burns slow. Even against the toad, it burned so slow, Jiraiya and Naruto were able to examine it without hindrance and it barely spread if at all. It's a very hot technique sure, but spreading wise it just burns far too slow to do any real damage. Amaterasu is not effective against Konan if it can't consume her faster than she can turn into paper, and that isn't the case.

      5) It was shown when he coward before him lol and said it himself in Chapter 70 lol. "Compete with him? Am I an idiot?". According to Kakashi, anyone who thinks Kakashi can compete with him is an idiot. So, yeah. Orochimaru outclasses him.

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    • Quick question, what genjutsu did Itachi use on orochi? I'm dure it can't be anything normal but tsukuyomi. If Itachi had a powerful enough genjutsu to put orochi in a bad state, why didn't he use it on Kakashi instead of tsukuyomi

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    • It was Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique but even then in the Manga it was shown to prove ineffective. Orochimaru shrugged it off and went to perform a Ninjutsu but the Genjutsu was only to stun lock him so Itachi could get close enough to cut his arm off. It wasn't the Genjutsu that really did a number on Orochimaru, it's what happens before he can do something. Itachi capitalizes on his stun lock and strikes. No one is immune to Genjutsu. Even people with Sharingan have shown to be caught in Genjutsu from time to time. They just can recognize it instantly and break free. But that means it isn't instantly broken and for that brief time, you are stun locked. That's why Genjutsu is such a cool ability. Cause even if the target can break free, as they are breaking free you can attack them.

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    • This jutsu is related to tsukuyomi then with the temporary thing and red sky. Genjutsu might be cool and all but against experienced shinobi, it's starting yo ineffective unless it's extremely powerful. If kaguto could shrug off most of itachi's powerful genjutsu, what would a orochi do when he got serious? The only reason he escaped was because of the other akatsuki and Itachi wasn't sick at that time

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    • Nirvanaslayer: The only reason he escaped was because of the other akatsuki and Itachi wasn't sick at that time.

      Don't know what you're trying to say there. Seems like you're saying that Orochimaru only escaped cause of another Akatsuki member. But that didn't happen. Oorchimaru was shown to be caught in it. Saw it was Genjutsu. Made a hand sign. And Itachi cut off his hand. There was no other Akatsuki member with them.

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    • "Itachi knew that obito would approach sasuke after itachi's death. Itachi knew that obito would reveal his sharingan to sasuke. Itachi knew that obito might survive and still tell sasuke the truth, and so he placed a contingency inside of naruto."

      Itachi didn't know any of these things. He simply anticipated them them to happen. The Sharingan can't see the future and Itachi doesn't know the future. Besides Obito, Sasuke and himself, he didn't know anyone else with a Sharingan, so he programmed the eye to react to a Sharingan because he figured Sasuke would come for his eyes at some point because blindness is the ultimate demise of the Mangekyo Sharingan. He didn't know Obito was going to reveal his Sharingan to Sasuke, because Obito, iirc, usually keeps it active to begin with, and the mask he typically wears shows that right eye all the time, never the left.

      "Obito KNEW he MIGHT survive." Itachi didn't know if Obito would survive or not, so he planned just in case he did.

      Stop making Itachi seem like someone that can see the future bro. Anyone with a brain can anticipate and plan for future events, not just Itachi.

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    • @Princeharris

      Itachi knew that obito would approach sasuke after death, and his transcription seal was set to react to tobi's sharingan. this was explained in the canon. Plus what you said was a contradiction, as even if he doesn't take off his mask he still has to look at his target with his right eye, and he looked sasuke in the eye, he had no reason not to, so itachi predicted it, and it doesn't take a genius to predict that. Part of intelligence is foresight. Everyone can see the future to an extent, some do it better than others, thus some are smarter than others. No one ever said itachi was the only who can predict, so I feel you are grasping at straws and semantics. If I say I know it will rain tomorrow, and it rains tomorrow, then it means I knew/predicted it/deduced it. My argument was simply that itachi has better foresight and tactics than the specific combatants in this thread, period, not that he was the smartest in the series, there are a few smarter than him. plus, what you stated had a degree of headcanon, as itachi clearly was worried about sasuke learning the truth about konoha from tobi. he was worried that sasuke would seek the EMS and become vengeful while being goaded by Tobi, he stopped that right in its tracks by preparing that fail-safe.

      @Loneninja

      1) Itachi hasn't been in the situation before yet you have the omniscience to claim he won't be able to counter the technique based on your own perception that he would choose an ineffective counter. That much was your assumption. And I don't need to explain that if itachi is close enough to kimimaro's allies, then the technique obviously would cause friendly fire if used on the scale depicted, and it doesn't have to kill his allies to be disruptive, his technique can still stun his allies and disrupt their own attacks. and yes Itachi didn't have to jump. The bones weren't near enough to warrant such an action.


      2)WRONG. There is NO PROOF obito wasn't forced to use izanagi to save himself from amaterasu. He was clearly tagged by the technique, and was in pain. When he remerges, there aren't any scorchmarks or burns on him, just like in the case of Danzo when Danzo was hit by amaterasu and then remerged good as new. If he used kamui, there would be more proof, like scorch marks still being present on his clothes, Period. he used izanagi as far as I am concerned, or some other hidden technique, hence why he claimed it was a secret that even itachi couldn't have known about. We even see his mask conveinently fall off, and we know that he needs to remove his mask to use izanagi in his hidden eye. Then he conveniently falls into the darkness so that the audience can't see. Obvious foreshadowing. The author is preparing us for izanagi in the future. All the physical evidence suggests he used izanagi. So yes, itachi forced obito to stop being a one trick pony and use a fail-safe. And sorry, but it's your personal opinion that itachi couldn't beat One MS obito, because I believe he can do it, just like I explained in the itachi vs obito thread from a while back, so not even go there here. Itachi >konan based on feats in tactics. I already debunked your claims. Itachi's primary goal was to keep sasuke from being drawn into the darkness by tobi, and he would have succeeded, period. In conclusion, Itachi nearly killed obito the same way konan did and with less effort, less mistakes, and while in death (post-mortem), and while it was only a secondary objective, meaning he had a backup in case it failed. Enough said.


      3) Nagato is clearly standing several feet from the smokecreen in the manga So he would have seen the blade coming out of the smoke and still had plenty of space to react. He has reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens before and at closer ranges, like a point blank shadow-shuriken-rasenshuriken, so there is no other excuse. So the blade is fast given his lack of a mental reaction to it. So yes the blade is faster than kn6 naruto and even rasenshuriken.


      4)I didn't say your claim is stupid. I said you cite PIS stupidity feats/steatements, meaning feats that happened under plot influence or characters who don't have the proper knowledge on the jutsu being debated. Part 2 trumps part one? No it doesn't work like that. A retcon is a plot-hole, meaning we use the proper feats, as clearly the technique was already established to be able to do one thing. So if it does something new, then the new thing is a left as an outlier that shouldn't be used in vs battles, especially when it's clear when the jutsu resumes it's initial capabilities again suddenly when it's needed for the plot. Amaterasu burned down an immortal dog summon very quickly, that same summon that didn't go down to rasenshuriken, and now it can't burn through clothes fast? Yet people would call me stupid if i said that same rasenshuriken couldn't rip through mere clothing. Amaterasu burned through the toad stomach instantly, as itachi and kisame were able to escape immediately after it was cast. You are referring to the residual flames, which is not the same thing as the initial combustion which clearly created a huge hole in the wall in an instant. So, I agree konan has a counter to amaterasu though it's slightly imperfect.


      5) Like I said, orochimaru being stronger has nothing to do with him being a better strategist or tactician than kakashi. Shikamaru is a better tactician than kaguya yet kaguya would stomp him in a fight, even if we gave him a few days prep time, and she outclasses him.

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    • 1) I can use that exact same logic against you and say him jumping is based on your own perception. Then again, at least I can prove myself right using similar circumstances. Such as Inorganic and his encounter with Kabuto's minuscule version. While Itachi is focusing on three individual target's, he isn't going to be able to sense and see a bone coming from below him faster than Lee can move. Surprises can slow a some Shinobi down remember, and this technique is a big surprise.

      2) There is no proof he did. That's all just your opinion. It wasn't stated by the author or any character. That's just what you think happened. There are clear instances of people being caught by Amaterasu and coming out not burned. The Samurai. Bee who had to be caught in Amaterasu then replaced himself and somehow got rid of any flames in contact. Etc. Obito screamed just like Bee screamed. You saying he needed to waste Izanagi when he could phased through it is just hyperbole. Obito had to use Izanagi against Konan. He didn't against Itachi's plan. You keep saying you debunked my claims. But no you didn't. All you been doing is using your opinions with no feat to support it. He'd jump. He used Izanagi. All opinions. A fact in writing is a piece of information that came directly from the writer. These opinions did not come from the writer. These are just your interpretations of what might have happened or would happen. I prefer going off of feats to decide a battle's outcome. You're just overhyping Itachi saying he can beat these three as if they're all individual fodder for him. Sorry but Itachi isn't a god nor is he close to being as powerful as what you seem to think.

      3) Kind of a headcanon. Wiki policy says that anime scenes that cover manga panels are facts. Facts, susanoo was covered in smoke and Nagato couldn't see it. So...

      4) Very very wrong. This wiki has been going by the rule that new evidence triumphs old. It's called being retconned. That is the very reason Amaterasu is listed as something that burns slowly on the wiki. When I say burn, I mean it's verb form. As in the consuming of a material.

      5) Kakashi cannot compete with Orochimaru. This includes intelligence. It's kind of hard to believe any quality Kakashi has in part 1 is on par with Orochimaru.

      I value your opinion, but it's just far fetched to me that Itachi can react to a bone coming from beneath him that he doesn't see coming. I don't think you'll be able to convince me otherwise due to the only two similar cases, Itachi didn't do what you suggest. So I guess it's just agree to disagree.

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    • 1) we came full circle here, I conceded long ago the technique was a problem, just not uncounterable. In the right situation it could end itachi.


      2) I accept your concession. You're entire argument is based on a few fallacies. You claimed that itachi failed to tag obito, false. Obito was tagged by amaterasu, period. You also have no proof that kamui was used, whereas I pointed towards evidence of izanagi used, then you retract your claim by saying there is no proof either way, which is the entire point. So you can't say that konan did better than itachi, period, because for all we know, obito was forced to use izanagi, and amaterasu>kamui. Also, false, we clearly saw amaterasu scorch marks on killer bee's decoy and sasuke's curse mark 2 decoy, so you're wrong. The real killer bee was actually hiding in a tentacle that was not affected by amaterasu and he substituted himself into it. Obito's shoulder and arm were clearly burning him. Additionally, you're argument that he "phased" through the flames makes no sense, as he was clearly tagged by the flames. even if he sent the flames to the other dimension and detached them somehow, there would still be burned clothing. To say that he merely used kamui requires a bunch of contrived events to have happened, not to mention there is still obito's character statements. Additionally, I already debunked your other claims. Itachi was smart enough to use a exploding clone to take all the risk, and detonate the clone to harm his enemies, and was smart enough to stay at a safe distance while the clone exploded and nearly subdued his enemies. Konan instead opted to detonate bombs near herself in a suicide attack when she could have used a paper bomb clone instead and remained at a safe distance. One used a clone to take the fall for them, the other nearly threw their life away when they KNEW they already had another trump card waiting. No matter how you twist it, itachi has made better tactical decisions than konan. Itachi isn't overhyped at all, he has his weaknesses but tactical prowess in battle and foresight and insight isn't one of them, he is most certaintly above the characters here. Put him next to people like Black Zetsu, shikamaru, shikaku, tobirama senju, or minato, then we can start talking.

      Plus we know obito didn't detach the flames and drop them on the ground or something, because then the whole cave would have started burning.

      3) Nope. Manga>anime. I already knew this excuse would come up, but I'm not buying it. Nagato himself has reacted to plenty of attacks coming out of smokescreens and even attacks that were done while he was in a smokescreen. From kakashi attacking from underground, to rasenshurikens coming out of smokescreens, etc. There is no way you can suddenly make an exception for the totsuka blade for your convenience. He couldn't react, fair and square. Seeing susano'o or not is irrelevant, because he can still see the blade coming out of the smoke, and he is smart enough to use preta path/or shinra tensei to block it, if he could. Totsuka blade's speed was the bane of nagato's existence.


      4) The wiki is written by humans, who aren't omniscient or always correct. If I see a jutsu clearly has shown top tier feats but suddenly has low end feats when the plot is needed, I call it out. IF Minato's FTG suddenly became a slow technique and cost minato a battle, I doubt people would suddenly ignore the previous established feats. Plot armor and deus ex machina don't count imo.

      5) Nowhere was it stated that he couldn't compete with him in intelligence. I agree that orochimaru is smarter than kakashi in many ways and is more experienced, but he is not a better combat strategist imo. There are different aptitudes even in intelligence. Intelligence isn't just a one size fits all, some people are really smart in physics and some are smarter at learning new languages. Not being able to compete with someone could mean many things, he clearly meant he couldn't defeat orochimaru in 1v1 combat.

      Well, the bone argument is fine, I never said it wouldn't be a threat, but he is an experienced ninja who most certainly has seen high level earth techniques before, there is no reason to assume the technique is uncounterable, which is why I kept saying there needed to be a diversion for it land. Team Oro could pull it off, but I'm not sure given that I believe itachi is their tactical superior and he is significantly faster than each of them, in jutsu speed, running speed, reflexes, everything I can think of. their numbers help offset this weakness, but itachi is proficient in the use of clones. I continued this argument because I wanted to see altnerative explanations, this is supposed to be a fair battle. You don't always get to use your trump card. Dediara with his c4 could solo most of the verse, even hashirama or madara in the right circumstance but doesn't mean he will get to use it in battle if his opponent gets the better of him first. But, if nothing else will change, then this was an interesting discussion, and I don't really have a problem with your opinion outside of the Itachi and obito thing.

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    • 1) Again, that's just what you believe. It's not a fact. Unless Kishimoto or Koda state it, or the Manga states it, it simply is just a theory. I did originally say Itachi failed to hit Obito, I concede on that and admit i was wrong. But the Izanagi statement is just pure opinion. The problem with your opinion is why? Kamui allows Obito to phase through whatever is in contact with him. It does this automatically and he doesn't get the choice in the matter (Evidence when Gai went to hit Obito's head and Obito was trying to grab Naruto's face. He was forced to Kamui his head and hand cause they both made contact with something). Even if Amaterasu did hit, as we seen with Karin; he had more than enough time to activate Kamui and phase any part of his body that'd make contact with the flames and leave the area. Yet, he just wasted an eye? Why was this also never stated? Why wait all the way until Konan for it to be revealed he can use it? What I do know without a doubt, is he used it on Konan. And he was forced to cause he had nothing else. Seeing as I can't say the same for Itachi, her tactic beats his. Therefore, I give her the edge in tactics. If you're really so gung ho about it, prove it, put Itachi in Konan's shoes. How does he stop Obito from getting the Rinnegan from Nagato? He has zero way even with Prep to stop him. Especially when he has Izanagi. But getting him to even use would be enough to convince in my opinion. This isn't about Obito vs Itachi, this is about Itachi vs Konan in tactics. If given the same situation, how could Itachi have done better?

      2) You're right. Manga > Anime. And the Manga shows the exact same thing. Susanoo is covered in smoke. Panels zoom in on Nagato's eyes. Nagato's eyes change to show he is back in control of himself. Then it zooms out to show (with smoke still looming around) he was stabbed by Totsuka. You saying the smoke cleared as Susanoo struck is fallacy. That isn't shown in the Manga. It was shown to be somewhat visible after Nagato had been hit. Therefore the anime's version is just as canon since it followed the scenes down to the wire. Not one panel from that Managa page wasn't shown in the anime. Therefore it's canon. Nagato didn't see it. Show me where it shows Susanoo is visible and show me where Nagato can see it before it hits him.

      3) And? You aren't always correct either which you have shown from time to time? What makes what you say more valuable than the wiki? The wiki is a highly trusted source cause though it can make mistakes, they make a habit to never go by opinions and take all their information from the canon sources. Yes people can come in here and edit the pages with whatever they want, but they're instantly corrected and punished. You can go change an entire article right now with false information, and I guarentee you it'd be corrected and you would find that the staff act swiftly and will punish you accordingly. When you say the wiki is wrong then it isn't just me you are debating with. It's the entire staff. So if you truly believe that, go take it up with them. If you're just going to be like "Naw it's wrong" but don't have the courage to go and act on your claim, then I really don't hold any value to that statement. Actions speak louder than words. Go prove to them that they are wrong if you truly believe that.

      4) He stated he couldn't compete with him. Period. Even when Kakashi is outmatched in terms of power, he'll still fight. Yet, against Orochimaru, he didn't. For the first and only time, he was scared of the enemy to the point he didn't want to fight. Not because he cared for him. But because he felt inferior.

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    • 1) .

      show me a scan or statement that obito saw through itachi's contingency crow placed in naruto. Until then, Itachi's outsmarted obito and stopped sasuke from being his eternal pawm. His plan to kill obito may have failed but he clearly had a backup tactic to protect sasuke from the darkness. konan on the other hand failed to kill obito, and that was her only objective. Also, then another scan that itachi knew about kamui beforehand. This is me playing devil's advocate to my own previous argument, just to show you I can tackle this from another perspective. Nothing suggests he knew about it. Obito knew itachi was a wild card so I feel obito was inclined to not go showing his abilities to him in the little time they spent together, whereas he saw konan as an ally and had no trouble using his main abilities around her. and we perfectly and well know obito still has mokuton, katon, and other jutsu he could have been using instead if he was ever around itachi. After, all obito said himself he went out of his way to keep secrets from itachi. Nowhere was it stated that he did the same to konan, but after the uchiha massacre he simply kept a spare eye just for times when an enemy got the drop on him it seems.

      Itachi can take obito imo in a circumstance where obito can't simply stall with kamui. So yes, let's pretent that itachi was the one hiding nagato's rinnegan and obito needed to capture him and beat the information out of him or get out of him with genjutsu. The easiest way is a simple clone feint. If the battle is on water, it would resemble the part one fight with kakashi alot. Itachi uses the shuriken ruse and uses water-style attacks while obito phases through. Itachi blocks his Line of sight with the water style. Obito blitzes him by simply phasing through the water. He says "you're finished" as he managed to grab itachi and starts sucking him into kamui land by the throat, as itachi explodes. as it turned out, itachi used his water style as a Line of sight blocker to swap himself out with a clone and move into obito's blindspot, just like he did to kakashi. Obito is stunned/suprised from the explosion, s and the real itachi stabs him in the back with the totsuka blade instead of the kunai he used against kakashi. You can modify this with other things like tsykyomi coming into play. That said, Obito is weak to deception due to his overconfidence. he would assume that itachi's water style attack was mere fodder, and he wouldn't think itachi would use the water style as diversion to set up his clone feint.


      2) I honestly don't see what the issue is here. No one batted an eye when nagato could react to rasenshurikens coming out of smokescreens, yet when it's itachi's weapon the smokescreen is purely to blame? Ok, so the smoke didn't clear before the blade was launched. Still doesn't stop him from seeing the blade coming out of the smoke, when he is standing several feet away from the smoke. If the blade is as slow as you claimed, there is no reason why Nagato wouldn't have been able to absorb or block the blade once he saw it coming out of that smokescreen.


      3)Cowardice? C'mon. This is a public thread and it's moderated. It's an open discussion. Everyone is wrong from time to time which is why we have discussions and try to come to consensus. Yes I have been wrong. And this wiki is open to edits for a reason. There are many discussions that happen and then information gets corrected. As we speak, I'm part of another thread that's discussing the SPSM article. So yes, I know the proper channels needed to confirm information or verify that information is correct. This isn't a tyranny, and no one should feel they can't offer their opinion nor is any one required to go trying to convince everyone that their opinion on a topic is right. For the purposes of this thread, I simply stated we have clearly seen Part two amaterasu burning down beings, even immortal ones, at a fast rate, so there is an inconsistency in the feats of amaterasu, and I see no reason why low end feats automatically trump high end ones. So yes, if I felt the need to bring this to someone's attention I would or someone feels my opinion on the matter is disruptive, they can tell me, as I'm sure moderators are watching this thread. This is a versus debate which hinges on the use of feats and the interpretation of them.


      4) I feel this is reaching. Nowhere was it stated that being unable to compete with someone in battle means you are outclassed in every possible way, that is a fallacy. Kakashi felt out of place in the battle with kaguya before his DMS upgrade, does that suddenly mean he was dumber than kaguya? Kakashi simply wasn't Sannin level in part one nor most of part two, so he couldn't compete in battle, nothing says he had no advantages over each of the individual sannin.

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    • Obito escaping Itachi's Amaterasu via Kamui was stated in the third or fourth databook.

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    • @LoneNinja,

      ok so apparently he did use kamui, I was wrong, but, I still have a rebuttal implemented into my above editted reply.

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    • @Combat

      Nagato could not react because it never came out of the smokescreen until after he was hit. So no reacting for him.

      As I said. Kakashi has only shown to not fight someone due to being outclassed once. Even with DMS, Kakashi was not = Kaguya, so that isn't a good example. If Kakashi can compete with intelligence alone, he would fight. Itachi outclasses in almost every regard but Kakashi kept going back for more. Yet, against Orochimaru, he was absolutely terrified to even press him. Why? Cause in his words "Compete with him? Am I an idiot?". So in his own words he cannot compete. Compete in what? In overall everything. If it was just Ninjutsu he'd just say Ninjutsu. If it was Genjutsu, he'd just say Genjutsu. So on. There hasn't been a single case of Kakashi being terrified to fight another cause he felt he couldn't compete except this one.

      As for the rest. Seel already crumbled the basis of the argument that it was Izanagi. With that being the root of all your points, there's nothing to really reply to. Konan forced him to use Izanagi, Itachi could not. Konan technically killed him. Itachi did not. Both planned. One almost succeeded.

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    • @LoneNinja

      1. That is not true. We literally see nagato standing in one spot. He didn't move an inch. He is clearly watching the smoke screen from a distance. There is no reason why he can't see the blade coming out of the smoke, when he has seen attacks coming out of smoke before and reacted just fine. I don't know what else to tell you.


      2. lol no. kakashi clearly felt out of place in the kaguya fight, chapter 686 pg 7. He couldn't compete with a fight among god tiers and he felt depressed, yet he isn't dumber than kaguya. H Nothing says he was outclassed because of intellect. Being outclassed in one thing doesn't mean everything, that is a fallacy. Just to show that flaw in logic, that same orochimaru who is supposedly outclasses kakashi in every single way (he doesn't, but let's say he does), admitted inferiority to itachi. Itachi >oro> kakashi, yet kakashi fought itachi. Clearly this logic doesn't work. Kakashi doesn't have a way of killing orochimaru, while he can theorectically kill itachi if he lands an attack, that is the clear difference. Itachi also had a harder time putting down kakashi compared to orochimaru. Kakashi actually has better genjutsu resistance than orochimaru due to his sharingan, as his skill with sharingan allowed him to even resist tsukyomi a little, whereas orochimaru can't achieve that same feat because he lacks a sharingan. So this also proves this fallacy that anything kakashi can do orochimaru does it better wrong.


      3) There is much to reply to. Like obito being so afraid of itachi he never used kamui in front of him despite it being his favorite ability. In obito's own words, he would have been dead if he didn't hide kamui from itachi. In obito's own words, itachi was a thorn in his side. Lmao, think about that for a second. Obito's "fail-safe" was not using his best and favorite ability in front of him. All Seel's verification does is prove itachi's tactics even more. Obito who had no trouble using kamui in front other high level ninja felt the need to hide that information from itachi. Obito was never shown or stated to have hid kamui from konan. I already proved itachi could have taken out obito 1v1 even with the tactics he showed in part one. Instead of addressing his tactics, like how he can spawn exploding clones behind his opponent out of nowhere after distracting them with other techniques and then swap places with them, you instead focused on degrading kakashi, as if that somehow changes itachi's fast-paced, combo oriented, misdirection- fighting style. You also have ignored itachi's kotoamatsukami backup plan for who knows how long now, which proves he had a contingency in the event obito was able to evade amaterasu. I don't know what else to tell you, the facts are all there. Konan came closer to beating obito due to information, not due to superior tactics. Obito made it impossible for itachi to learn about kamui because they barely spent time together and obito hid it whenever he was around him apparently, where as konan could see him use it many times for years to the point she could actually pinpoint specific weaknesses like the 5 minute weakness. Obito isn't dumb, he knew itachi wasn't a friend and knew how dangerous itachi's mind was, while on the other hand he saw konan as a friend, and was in fact surprised she betrayed him. Obito clearly stated that itachi's amaterasu failed due to a lack of knowledge :" even itachi didn't know everything about me". In an actual battle, itachi could do what minato did and figure out that obito's weakness is in the moment of attack, and he can use a exploding clone feint to take him out.

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    • 1) What we see is Susanoo covered by smoke. His eyes show he's under Kabuto's control. Then it clears up. NOTHING SHOWS THE SMOKE CLEARING BEFORE THE BLADE ALREADY PIERCED. Prove it. Show me where he see's the blade clearly. If you cannot then it's false since that specific anime scene is canon and it shows he was hit while the smoke covered Susanoo. You keep saying fallacy, this fallacy that; but you been using the biggest made up facts thus far. Izanagi made up. This is made up. You can deny what you want. In Canon, Susanoo was covered in smoke and that is a fact. The smoke didn't clear and Susanoo was not visible until AFTER it stabbed him. That is a fact. So he couldn't react.

      2) Yet, he fought Itachi anyways? So let me get this straight. According to you, Itachi is superior to Orochimaru who Kakashi wouldn't fight cause he felt inferior to, but will fight someone more superior than the guy he wouldn't? Yea, no logic there. Orochimaru's experiments to himself wasn't revealed at that time, so that wasn't the reason. You saying he couldn't hurt him is just another thing you cooked up. What's stated is he couldn't compete. That alone. That is the reason therefore.

      3) As I said, not even going to address it. Especially when your opening is "obito being so afraid of itachi", the bias point of view is clear here. Itachi wasn't special. He hid his abilities from majority. I guess he was afraid of Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, and Kakuzu too lol (sarcasm).

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    • 1)


      Like I said idk what to tell you. it's hard to believe we are looking at the same manga panel. We clearly see nagato isn't standing in the smoke. He is several feet in front of it. That same nagato reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens, so what is your excuse now? Naruto threw a gigantic smokescreen in front of nagato and yet nagato reacted to the rasenshuriken coming out of it just fine lol. In fact naruto used smokescreens multiple times against nagato and he formed a reaction each and every time. yet now when itachi uses a smokescreen, nagato can't react. It means the totsuka blade is faster than the rasenshuriken at the very least, as nagato reacted to one at point-blank range after it came out of a smokescreen, just fine. You still haven't addressed these points.


      2) Idk what to tell you. I just cited evidence of kakashi admitting he couldn't compete with a god tier. I guess kaguya is smarter than kakashi. and my point about itachi>oro> kakashi still stands, don't see how its a debate. it's canon. orochimaru tried to compete with itachi and then was forced to leave the akatsuki lol, enough said. and I'm willing to take a leap of faith with some headcanon- I'm pretty sure orochimaru outright stated itachi was his superior, I hope that you won't make me actually look for the chapter because I'm sure it exists. Orochimaru has oral rebirth in part one if I remember correctly, because we saw him using it on kid kabuto in a flashback. even if kakashi could kill orochimaru it does not prove that he couldn't compete due to being an inferior strategist. Like, how does this logic even hold up? It goes without saying that shikamaru cannot compete with hashirama in battle even though shikamaru is smarter than him. There is still combat experience, there is still speed, reflexes, power, skill, and several more relevant reasons why you wouldn't be able to compete someone in combat. next you will be saying that shikamaru can "compete" with hashirama in 1v1 fair combat because he is smarter. Kakashi fought against itachi because it was a confidence thing. Kakashi was outright surprised that jiraiya could fight 6 paths of pain, and kakashi is below sannin level, yet he fought against pain with confidence. You simply misunderstand kakashi's personality and how it changes depending on what's at stake. he fought itachi because he wanted to at least put up an effort. he would have put up an effort against orochimaru too, he was willing to sacrifice his life, and he realized it was a fool's errand after the fact, but orochimaru was also retreating , so it's not like they would have actually fought there.

      3) I call bias on you. Why? because we have canon statements of obito being wary of itachi, and statements of him hiding information from itachi in fear that the information would lead to itachi killing him. Information is only half the battle, yet obito conceded he would have been dead to itachi with full knowledge. You don't hide your trump card from someone you see as a non-threat. Obito specfically stated he hid the information from itachi, that's why he called it his "fail-safe". At this point I can cite all of the statements and you still will ignore them, just like you ignored most of my other important points. It's just your opinion that itachi was below obito when all the evidence suggests otherwise. You even now grasp at straws with deidara, sasori, hidan, and kakazu, who were all allies of obito. Obito wasn't even an official "member" of the akatsuki until sasori died, he was out roaming doing his own thing, and he only checked in with konan and nagato every so often. Obito was the one who recruited itachi directly, and obito immediately recognized itachi as a threat, but he took itachi in because it allowed him to get sharingan eyes plus a capable member for capturing bijuu. obito and itachi had an understanding. once the clock ran out and itachi was ready to die, most of the bijuu captured, and half the akatsuki dead, only then did obito resume his origninal plans the way he wanted, which was allowing pain to burn konoha into the ground. If itachi wasn't a thorn in his side, pain destroys most konoha in part one and then there is no plot lol. Konan only knew so much about obito because they were together from the beginning, and there is no telling how many missions they went on together when the akatsuki was still a 4 man organization of tobi, nagato, konan, and zetsu. and we know that the akatsuki has gone through many member changes over the years, so that's plenty of time for konan to have observed obito, until obito decided to step into the shadows and let nagato run the day to day activites. You have no proof of your claim that itachi had access to info about kamui when all the evidence suggests otherwise, but if you do I'm happy to hear it.

      You don't have to address my point, but don't say I'm biased when I have used facts here. and while I was wrong on some of these facts, I corrected myself when it was clear I was proven wrong and have offered a new argument. If you provide facts like you and others did before there is no reason why I wouldn't be able to take your argument into consideration.

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    • @Combat

      Show me these things.

      1) Show me the chapter when Nagato reacted to smoke screened RasenShuriken.

      2) Show me the chapter where he stated he can't compete with Kaguya.

      3) Can't be biased when I ain't making stuff up to downplay a character. I know Itachi's capabilities. Three S Class aren't within his capability. Show me a chapter where Obito states he is afraid of Itachi. The fact of the matter is Obito used Itachi to get what he wanted. Itachi couldn't stop Obito even though his mission was to protect Konohagakure. The fact of the matter is, Itachi was the one who never made a move against Obito to stop the Akatsuki. Obito didn't fear Itachi. There's no reason to fear a puppet under your control. Obito expected Itachi was against him, but even so he kept him by his side. If he feared him, he wouldn't have let him in the Akatsuki to begin within. It was Itachi who pleaded for Obito to not attack Konohagakure again. So Obito obviously knew where his allegiance lied from the beginning. Even so, he had no problem using him to get what he wanted. That isn't fear.

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    • @LoneNinja

      Didn't Nagato react to smoke-screened Rasen-Shuriken in Naruto vs Pain? When he brought the Preta Path to absorb it?

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    • I can't recall which is why i asked for a chapter.

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    • @LoneNinja


      1) Exhibit A, Chapter 433, pg 13-14. Nagato is clearly reacting to a rasenshuriken coming out of a smokecreen. rasenshuriken is mach speed +. Yet he reacted with preta barrier. And this situation is directly comparable to the one with naruto bee and itachi. Exhibit B chapter 441 pg 16. Nagato reacts yet again. He even has gained experience in reacting to attacks out of smokescreens to the point he is confident in reacting to high speed attacks coming out of them. Bonus exhibit, turn one more page in chapter 441 to pg 17, and nagato reacts to another rasenshuriken that was hidden within the first one. It was a surprise attack, he didn't see it coming beforehand, and he still reacted.

      There is your proof. The fact that nagato could not react to a huge, long, yellow blade coming out of the smokescreen proves that the blade is faster than rasenshuriken, argubaly faster even then kn6 naruto. The blade was always fast, my point about orochimaru being surprised by the blade's speed still stands. People just downplay the blade by focusing on the fact that his opponents were supposedly completely immobile, yet they both failed to register a mental reaction.


      2) chapter 686 pg 7-9. Kakashi admits he can't do anything. He can't compete. The characters he is with are out of his league. IF he tried to jump in, all he would do was get in naruto's way or get himself killed, which would disturb naruto's emotions and allow kaguya an opening.

      3) I disagree. First of all, you are oversimplifying a few things. You missed the part where itachi wanted to die for sasuke. The whole plot point was that itachi's love for sasuke> konoha. Konoha came second. He did a half-assed job of protecting konoha because of that, but even then he still did his job within reason. he survived long enough for the akatsuki's power to weaken. with itachi's death, the akatsuki was down to half its strength. Akatsuki also couldn't attack konoha directly with him there. Without his love for sasuke/ self-hatred for killing his clan getting in the way, itachi would have probably lived long enough to join konoha in taking down the akatsuki, who by the end of the series was weakened to just obito, zetsu, and kisame. In death, his amaterasu trap was mostly to protect sasuke but it had added benefits to cover konoha's protection and blindside obito. But It's clear that itachi wanted konoha to pull most of its own weight in dealing with the akatsuki, or he wouldn't have let himself die. His hope was that sasuke would return to the village being a hero, and that he could leave the rest to naruto. Obito literally wanted sasuke badly, and itachi would have succeeded in stopping him, which is the whole reason he made that contingency with naruto in case amaterasu failed to kill obito.

      Second of all Itachi was dying of a terminal illness. He didn't make any moves on akatsuki because that wasn't his job. Show me one panel of itachi trying to kill kisame, or even trying to hunt down any of the weaker members. even if he made a move, akatsuki members move in pairs. It wouldn't be a 1v1 fair battle. Itachi's weakness is stamina. If he takes out members, he overextends his hand and dies. almost any akatsuki duo have a solid chance of taking him out. He would be forced to retreat. Obito was the only person who knew itachi's true role in the akatsuki, not even nagato knew, so itachi had to do his job so that obito held his end of the bargain. If obito can't use itachi for capturing bijuu, then he has no reason to keep up the bargain, as that was the deal. ITachi helps akatsuki, obito can't attack konoha or sasuke directly with his full force. OBito already tried to destroy konoha but failed thanks to the 4th hokage. Itachi stopped future attempts up until itachi was already near death, and akatsuki was nearing its end game. and guess who took out most of the akatsuki members? ninja from konoha. If obito betrayed the deal and tried to kill itachi, then itachi had nothing to lose. Itachi would try to take out as many members as he could before going down. and he still had kotoamatsukami as a trump card. Akatsuki would still be weakened, and konoha would have a decent chance of winning. and like I said, obito vs itachi is complicated just like obito vs anyone except kakashi. IF obito really, really doesn't want to be hit, you can't hit him because he will just hide in kamui land and can escape if he wants to. In a 1v1 battle itachi could analyze kamui the same way minato did and can take him out if obito tries to attack, but obito isn't guaranteed to do that, and he could easily await backup to ensure itachi goes down.

      404 pg 17 (Obito admitts itachi was standing in his way, and with his death he can pursue konoha with full force.) You don't consider someone you can swat like a fly an obstacle that you can only avoid once they are dead lol. at that point they already had 7 bijuu too. It was end game. Obito has no reason to say something like that if he didn't regard itachi highly as an opponent. Obito recruited itachi because like I said, they had an understanding. chapter 397 pg 12. Obito admits he would have been dead without hiding his secrets from itachi. one of these "secrets" was confirmed to be kamui. This means itachi didn't know about kamui.

      I haven't made any further commment on the battle because that discussion won't go anywhere if you are claiming that konan is a better tactician than itachi, which has an effect on the battle. My argument is that that is simply not true, itachi lacked the knowledge that konan had. he was also already dead at the point his trap went off. a one time booby trap isn't comparable to what itachi could actually do if he was in that cave with obito and sasuke. You also downplayed itachi's tactics multiple times. I cited you feats of his tactics, like how he overlays attacks, keeps you guessing about how many moves he has enacted, and clone feints in your blindspot and stuff of that nature, and you're only rebuttal was that part one kakashi was irrelevant, which is unsatisfactory. Kakashi is literally just a placeholder, itachi's decision making skills in battle still remain the same whether or not kakashi was a worthy opponent.

      Konan's tactic of using a ruse to hide her real attack is something itachi does all the time in battle, and I proved he does it better because he used a similiar manuever and he did it without unnecessarily risking his own life. He distracted killer bee with fireball shuriken to catch him in genjutsu, all while he was holding back the best he could not to kill killer bee. He distracted kakashi with shuriken and a water-style technique to set up his exploding shadow clone feint, and that itachi was jobbing too, meaning he can add more layers to his attacks. He feinted a perfect sage with a crow-style substitution feint multiple times. We have yet to see healthy itachi go all out in a battle. The few times he got the chance to he didn't need strategy. Nagato got one shotted by totsuka blade with ease. Plus, for the record, I have never downplayed konan. In fact, in that itachi vs obito thread from a few months ago, someone was downplaying konan's abilities, and I called them out and corrected them. I gave konan the respect she deserved, but she very clearly made a few mistakes in that battle that had nothing to do with obito surprising her with izanagi, mistakes that I don't see itachi making based on the feats I've shown.

      I'm more inclined to believe itachi can lose this battle now only because his speciality is 1v1 battle due to his stamina and the nature of most his techniques. Team oro has a few counters for him I admit, but itachi has a few for them as well. It depends on who takes initiative and whether or not Kimimaro in character would use that bone technique sooner than later, so I'm not sure. But either way, we can't get to that point until the other stuff has been cleared.

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    • 1) Okay, noted. However. 1st example. Shared Vision. Plenty of time to react. Looking directly at it. In control of his body. Same with the second and third example except for shared vision. Also what's your proof that it's as fast as sound? I also want to point out one thing you're neglecting.

      File:Nagato's pupil.png

      His pupil is obviously looking upwards therefore he wasn't looking at the sword which hit his lower chest, upper abdominal.

      2) No. That never came out his mouth. He says is there anything he can do? Even Sakura and Obito are doing something. Then he goes on to say there must be something he can do. That isn't someone saying they can't compete. AND THIS IS EXHAUSTED Kakashi. Who has been fighting in a war, went heads with tailed beasts, went heads with 7 swordsmen, went heads with Obito, etc. Even then, against the greatest foe in the history of shinobi; he still thinks he can do something. Horrible example compared to a Kakashi not inhibited by anything against Orochimaru.

      3) You missed the part where Itachi asked for Konoha to be untouched, in return he'll help him take down the Uchiha. If Itachi could take him down, he wouldn't need to ask. He would tell him, you ain't touching my village. The difference between Obito and Kisame, is Obito is the leader. If Kisame or the others die, then they can be replaced. You kill Obito, you end everything. He chose not to, not because he wanted to die by Sasuke's hand, cause if he killed Obito nothing stops him from doing that; but because he couldn't. If Obito was scared of Itachi, he wouldn't have had him under his thumb to begin with. And I clearly see in chapter 404 that Obito said "Itachi is dead... Nothing stands in my way now. Konoha is no longer off limits." That isn't him saying Itachi was a thorn in his side. That's him saying the deal he made with him was. I like how you just took the first part of the statement and ignored the second. Obito needed as many powerful members as he could get. Itachi is obviously a benefit to have under your thumb. Sasuke as well.

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    • LoneNinja wrote:

      2) Yet, he fought Itachi anyways? So let me get this straight. According to you, Itachi is superior to Orochimaru who Kakashi wouldn't fight cause he felt inferior to, but will fight someone more superior than the guy he wouldn't? Yea, no logic there. Orochimaru's experiments to himself wasn't revealed at that time, so that wasn't the reason. You saying he couldn't hurt him is just another thing you cooked up. What's stated is he couldn't compete. That alone. That is the reason therefore.

      Kakashi wasn't afraid of Itachi, because he had a counter to his genjutsu. Notice when Itachi so much as turned on the Mangekyou, Kakashi reaction was much more fearful than it was against Oro.

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    • @Brain

      Not really. Because he still stood in Itachi's way where as he let Oro go. I also don't think Kakashi was as scared due to the fact he still looked into Itachi's eyes while telling the others not to. If anything, he was scared for his comrades. He didn't know how powerful Itachi's ascension was, he felt he was still safe from Genjutsu (why else did he keep staring into his eyes?).

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      Not really. Because he still stood in Itachi's way where as he let Oro go. I also don't think Kakashi was as scared due to the fact he still looked into Itachi's eyes while telling the others not to. If anything, he was scared for his comrades. He didn't know how powerful Itachi's ascension was, he felt he was still safe from Genjutsu (why else did he keep staring into his eyes?).

      Him letting Oro walk away doesn't mean much, the difference is Itachi planned to fight Kakashi (as far as Kakashi knew), Oro didn't care about fighting Kakashi either way. Kakashi had a rough idea how strong Tsukuyomi was, otherwise why would he be so frantic about closing their eyes and why would he say if you open your eyes your finished?

      It makes sense Kakashi kept staring at Itachi's eyes, because he would be a sitting duck if he closed them both. Kakashi wouldn't have started sweating so profusely or had the dire expression on his face, if he felt safe from genjutsu.

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    • @Brain

      So you expect me to believe Kakashi was scared of the Genjutsu capabilities but still chose to be trapped in it on purpose??????????????????????? No logic behind that argument. He obviously had no idea it would effect his Sharingan. He could have looked at anything else other than his eyes. Even could of looked at his feet like Gai does. But no. He didn't. Therefore, he wasn't afraid of being trapped by Genjutsu. You aren't convincing me that Kakashi knew that Itachi's Mangekyo would be able to do what it did and still chose to allow it to happen while being oh so scared of it happening. Either a) He didn't care. or b) he didn't know. Either way, he wasn't afraid for himself, or he wouldn't have let Itachi put him in it to begin with.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      So you expect me to believe Kakashi was scared of the Genjutsu capabilities but still chose to be trapped in it on purpose??????????????????????? No logic behind that argument. He obviously had no idea it would effect his Sharingan. He could have looked at anything else other than his eyes. Even could of looked at his feet like Gai does. But no. He didn't. Therefore, he wasn't afraid of being trapped by Genjutsu. You aren't convincing me that Kakashi knew that Itachi's Mangekyo would be able to do what it did and still chose to allow it to happen while being oh so scared of it happening. Either a) He didn't care. or b) he didn't know. Either way, he wasn't afraid for himself, or he wouldn't have let Itachi put him in it to begin with.

      Kakashi obviously wasn't thinking clearly or didn't have experience in the matter.

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    • @Brain

      Kakashi not thinking clearly is your answer? Lol. A) He didn't care. Or B) He didn't know. These two options are the only options based off the scene. Either way you look at it, he wasn't afraid for himself or he too wouldn't of been looking at Itachi's eyes and that's a fact. Kakashi isn't an idiot, if he knew Itachi's Genjutsu could affect him, he wouldn't have looked.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      Kakashi not thinking clearly is your answer? Lol. A) He didn't care. Or B) He didn't know. These two options are the only options based off the scene. Either way you look at it, he wasn't afraid for himself or he too wouldn't of been looking at Itachi's eyes and that's a fact. Kakashi isn't an idiot, if he knew Itachi's Genjutsu could affect him, he wouldn't have looked.

      That's not a fact. Kakashi went to Guy after the fight to ask how to deal with sharingan genjutsu, after being hit by Tsukuyomi. It wasn't obvious to Kakashi even after the fight that he should look at Itachi's feet, because he was inexperienced in fighting the sharingan.

      Kakash definitely knew Itachi had a OHKO genjutsu otherwise he wouldn't have said open your eyes and your finished.

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    • @Brain

      It is stated that Sharingan makes one close to invulnerable to Genjutsu. You're right, he said if they open their eyes, they're finished. He never said anything about himself being at risk. So either A) He didn't care or B) He didn't know. He assumed Itachi was heightened. Therefore his Genjutsu would. But that doesn't mean he knew the Genjutsu would affect him to the point he couldn't break free, someone who possessed the Sharingan. So he was confident enough to look into Itachi's eyes. FACT.

      What chapter did Kakashi go to Gai? If I remember correctly, Kakashi didn't ask a single thing, Gai was talking to Asuma and Kurenai while Kakashi was incapacitated and Gai had him over his shoulder. Gai literally stated he invented that way of fighting to fight Kakashi. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that Kakashi never witnessed it.

      And yes it is a fact. If Kakashi knew it could have affected him, he wouldn't have looked. He's not an idiot like you seem to suggest.

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    • Kakashi said that Itachi was a true heir of the sharingan and he had to expect the worse. So Kakashi expected the worse from Itachi's genjutsu.

      Chapter 257

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    • @Brain

      That's part 2. We're talking about part 1. Damn straight he's expecting the worst after part 1. NOW HE KNEW, he could be trapped by Genjutsu. Part 2 statement doesn't help you when talking about part 1 and he clearly wasn't afraid to get aggressive in part 2. So what's your point in bringing up part 2 when Kakashi already knew he could be trapped by Genjutsu?

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      That's part 2. We're talking about part 1. Damn straight he's expecting the worst after part 1. NOW HE KNEW, he could be trapped by Genjutsu. Part 2 evidence doesn't help you when talking about part 1. And he clearly wasn't afraid to get aggressive in part 2.

      No he said he had to expect the worse in part 1

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    • Chapter 257 takes place after Naruto is 15ish. Chiyo is there, so this is part 2 during the Gaara retrieval. Show me where he says he expects the worst to happen to him in part 1.

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    • Chapter 142

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    • Chapter 142 doesn't say anything about him expecting the worst. Also on page 15 of that very chapter, Kakashi literally states "Only another person with Sharingan could probably fight with his" referring to Itachi's Mangekyo after he freaked out and told everyone to close their eyes. So I was right, you were wrong. He assumed he would be fine, and was only worried about Asuma and Kurenai. Then Itachi warned him he was wrong and used Tsukuyomi on him to prove it. Check Mate.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: Chapter 142 doesn't say anything about him expecting the worst. Also on page 15 of that very chapter, Kakashi literally states "Only another person with Sharingan could probably fight with his" referring to Itachi's Mangekyo after he freaked out and told everyone to close their eyes. So I was right, you were wrong. He assumed he would be fine, and was only worried about Asuma and Kurenai. Then Itachi warned him he was wrong and used Tsukuyomi on him to prove it. Check Mate.


      Chapter 142, pg 1, in the viz version he does say that.

      lol that's definitely not checkmate. Unfortunately I can't post the picture here, but on pg 15 where he says only another sharingan user can handle him, look at his face. That's not the expression of someone who thinks he'll be fine, in fact he has a desperate expression on his face and he's sweating profusely.

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    • @Brain

      What kakashi says > what you think he feels. I'd rather take him at his word thinking he can compete with Itachi, rather someone on the internet who seems to only participate in Itachi vs debates. The fact is, he said he can compete with Itachi and said he couldn't with Orochimaru. So it is Checkmate.

      Also, you are obviously not reading Viz cause Kakashi speaking is not on page 1, it's a cover photo on page one. It also covers volumes and not chapters. But if you insist that Kakashi literally states that he expects the worst, than you can post a picture on my talk page outside of the Naruto wiki. Just hit the big fandom on the left top corner, click profile, then instead of your username after the = sign, you put mine.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      What kakashi says > what you think he feels. I'd rather take him at his word thinking he can compete with Itachi, rather someone on the internet who seems to only participate in Itachi vs debates. The fact is, he said he can compete with Itachi and said he couldn't with Orochimaru. So it is Checkmate.

      Also, you are obviously not reading Viz cause Kakashi speaking is not on page 1, it's a cover photo on page one. It also covers volumes and not chapters. But if you insist that Kakashi literally states that he expects the worst, than you can post a picture on my talk page outside of the Naruto wiki. Just hit the big fandom on the left top corner, click profile, then instead of your username after the = sign, you put mine.

      I am reading Viz, I wasn't counting the cover page. It's on page 2 then, if you count the cover page. Just read the first couple pages of the viz chapter, the actual chapter and not extraneous pages.

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    • Itachi witnessed obito place nearly 20 people in genjutsu at once. This happened in itachi’ novel which is included on the canon timeline(s) hosted on this site. Also, Sasuke used basic 3 tomoe sharingan to read a life time of memories in an instant. You could argue that this ability scales to anyone with 3 tomoe sharingan, or you could argue that the ability is unique to his eye, but either way Itachi gets the feat because those are literally his eyes Sasuke used for it. Plus this feat happened in Sasuke’ novel which is just as canon.

      Keep in mind that basic sharingan genjutsu can be placed in under 1/100 of a second, and ms genjutsu under 1/1000. This is also found in itachi’ novel.

      Plus edo Itachi’ clash with bee and Naruto prove a strength and speed gap. Itachi not only exchanged blows with kcm Naruto, he also massively outpaced bee and Naruto while they were in mid swing. Knowing what edo’ mechanic is and how it works, alive Itachi’ stats are more impressive.

      So even though yata mirror was nerfed to one directional here, it’s fine because he wouldn’t really need them.

      Itachi makes a shadow clone that he sends to blitz and place them all in genjutsu at once. He then spawns totska and seals.

      There’s also koto, shisui’ genjutsu, which proved effective against edo. So konan could wind up killing orochimaru. Or Itachi could just force orochimaru to undo the jutsu himself just like with sage kabuto.

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    • @Brain

      I don't see the statement. Just post the picture on my actual talk page.

      @Hag0r0m0

      Except Naruto was trying to speak to Itachi the entire time, trying to have a full conversation. Therefore, it's generally not accepted as a feat since Naruto wasn't trying to kill Itachi as Itachi was trying to kill him (reanimation forces his body even if his mind isn't into it). So Itachi's speed isn't on KCM level especially when Kakashi could keep up with him and I will not accept that Kakashi is the same speed as KCM Naruto prior to the 4th War.

      And no. Itachi isn't putting them all in Genjutsu at once. Where's your proof Itachi has the skill to put multiple S Class Shinobi in Genjutsu? Obito and Sasuke's feats do not = Itachi's feats. His eyes don't give Sasuke his Genjutsu prowess. That's just a made up fact on your part.

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    • @loneNinja

      I rather not, I don't think that's allowed on this site. Where are you reading the chapter at. I know I'm reading the Viz chapter, if you don't see it than your not reading the Viz chapter.

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    • On this site? My individual wiki talk page outside Narutopedia isn't apart of the site therefore isn't reprehensible. So you can't hide behind that to get away with a fabrication, if that's what you are trying to do. Also, look on my talk page, "Links can be posted, it just depends on the contents of the link. an English Scanlation (fan translated scans of panels) are prohibited.", stated by the mod AsianReaper. Viz isn't a fan made scanlation. It's a legal official licensed anime and Manga distribution company. So posting a link to it is perfectly okay.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: On this site? My individual wiki talk page outside Narutopedia isn't apart of the site therefore isn't reprehensible. So you can't hide behind that to get away with a fabrication, if that's what you are trying to do. Also, look on my talk page, "Links can be posted, it just depends on the contents of the link. an English Scanlation (fan translated scans of panels) are prohibited.", stated by the mod AsianReaper. Viz isn't a fan made scanlation. It's a legal official licensed anime and Manga distribution company. So posting a link to it is perfectly okay.

      lol fabrication, that's what you think? Also you didn't answer my question. Are you using a website to view it? If so which one? I will only point you to the website I was using, after you tell me how you where and how you were viewing the chapter.

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    • @Brain

      Obviously you're dancing around the truth. You obviously are wrong, or you would've posted a link to the page by now. Cause if it was actually from Viz you would have nothing to fear.

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    • Fkw123
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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      Obviously you're dancing around the truth. You obviously are wrong, or you would've posted a link to the page by now. Cause if it was actually from Viz you would have nothing to fear.

      I don't have problem with telling you the website, provided you answer my questions, which your avoiding for some reason. Why are you avoiding my questions? You can believe what you want, but I'm certain that you are not reading the Viz version.

      Ask someone else to post what the viz version say on your talk thread, if you don't believe me. If someone post a real physical copy of that page of the chapter and it says something dissimilar to what I said, I'll admit I'm wrong.

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    • @Brain

      Good try. But it's not my job to prove your sources. It's your job to do that. I have no reason to address your questions cause they're irrelevant. I got you on the ropes and you're trying to retreat. Why would I allow that? No, i'm going to press for your source that obviously doesn't exist or you would of posted it by now and showed you were right. No site has what you say is stated and now you're just digging your own grave. Either show proof or it's false. Simple as that.

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    • This is terrible logic, your making this leap that I must be lying if I don't do what you want and you don't have any proof. You don't know why I'm not posting scans on this website and you're making the assumption that it's because what I said is false. It can be for any reason, as far as you know.

      And for the record you haven't posted any scans to back up your claims about what you said Itachi or Kakashi said are either.

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    • @Brain

      I don't need to because I posted Manga chapters that anyone can read and verify. You on the other hand stated that Kakashi stated on chapter 257 that he expected the worst. Then when I stated that's part 2, you quickly stated that it was another chapter. Then when I said that statement wasn't there, you leaned on Viz so not everyone can verify what you were saying. So obviously your credibility is questioned with all the bull that led up to your "evidence". Now you simply can't even post a link to prove yourself. If it comes directly from Viz, you would have no reason not to be able to present your evidence. Posting links to legal canon sources are allowed, and you can ask any mod that. So therefore, you obviously have no proof.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      I don't need to because I posted Manga chapters that anyone can read and verify. You on the other hand stated that Kakashi stated on chapter 257 that he expected the worst. Then when I stated that's part 2, you quickly stated that it was another chapter. Then when I said that statement wasn't there, you leaned on Viz so not everyone can verify what you were saying. So obviously your credibility is questioned with all the bull that led up to your "evidence". Now you simply can't even post a link to prove yourself. If it comes directly from Viz, you would have no reason not to be able to present your evidence. Posting links to legal canon sources are allowed, and you can ask any mod that. So therefore, you obviously have no proof.

      No I said chapter 257 in response to you asking what chapter does Guy talk to Kakashi.

      You can check if you go to the website, all I asked is you answer my question before I tell you, than you can go see for yourself. Is there some reason you can't just answer my question and check for yourself?

      Where did you post chapters 142 and 257?

      LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      It is stated that Sharingan makes one close to invulnerable to Genjutsu. You're right, he said if they open their eyes, they're finished. He never said anything about himself being at risk. So either A) He didn't care or B) He didn't know. He assumed Itachi was heightened. Therefore his Genjutsu would. But that doesn't mean he knew the Genjutsu would affect him to the point he couldn't break free, someone who possessed the Sharingan. So he was confident enough to look into Itachi's eyes. FACT.

      What chapter did Kakashi go to Gai? If I remember correctly, Kakashi didn't ask a single thing, Gai was talking to Asuma and Kurenai while Kakashi was incapacitated and Gai had him over his shoulder. Gai literally stated he invented that way of fighting to fight Kakashi. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that Kakashi never witnessed it.

      And yes it is a fact. If Kakashi knew it could have affected him, he wouldn't have looked. He's not an idiot like you seem to suggest.

      The bolded is where you asked me about what chapter does Kakashi talk to Guy

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    • @Brain

      All I see is excuses and dodging. I wash my hands with you. I'm not addressing you moving onwards if all you're going to do is make statements without proper sources. I questioned your source and said you made that up and you failed to prove your sources credibility. You still refuse to provide evidence, so I don't need to do anything else.

      Besides. Kakashi said it himself. He can compete with Itachi cause he has Sharingan. So i don't need to waste my time. You can call it whatever you like, him not thinking straight, him losing his mind, etc. It doesn't matter, he thought that and didn't against Orochimaru.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      I don't see the statement. Just post the picture on my actual talk page.

      @Hag0r0m0

      Except Naruto was trying to speak to Itachi the entire time, trying to have a full conversation. Therefore, it's generally not accepted as a feat since Naruto wasn't trying to kill Itachi as Itachi was trying to kill him (reanimation forces his body even if his mind isn't into it). So Itachi's speed isn't on KCM level especially when Kakashi could keep up with him and I will not accept that Kakashi is the same speed as KCM Naruto prior to the 4th War.

      And no. Itachi isn't putting them all in Genjutsu at once. Where's your proof Itachi has the skill to put multiple S Class Shinobi in Genjutsu? Obito and Sasuke's feats do not = Itachi's feats. His eyes don't give Sasuke his Genjutsu prowess. That's just a made up fact on your part.

      The feat I’m talking about was during bee and Naruto’ attack. They weren’t distracted at that moment, though I agree they did lose focus at one point. Still, Itachi put several paces worth of distance between them before they finished their strike. It is underrated as a speed feat.

      Itachi is putting them under genjutsu, he put deidara in genjutsu. He put orochimaru in one also. Plus obito’ feat was very casual.

      Koto has proven effective against edo, it should cause enough trouble to secure a win.

      Also Itachi has killed using genjutsu alone. He made Izumi live out a lifetime in under a second using tsukuyomi. Kakashi was placed for a mere 3 Days. Keep in mind that was a clone of Itachi at 30% of his true power. Itachi spared kakashi’ life like he did kurenai and asuma and jiraiya from kisame’ wrath. He kept kisame in check each time. Even told asuma I don’t want to kill you. He prevented the worse outcome, because he was still trying to protect them while undercover in akatsuki.

      I’m not sure how to add spoilers but I do know this reply needs it.

      Point is Itachi does outclass kakashi in genjutsu and visual prowess in general, barring war arc kakashi.

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    • @Hag0r0m0

      No speed feat for Itachi in the instance of him versus Naruto and Bee. A single dodge from Samehada and the scuffle between Itachi and Naruto when they are trying to have a conversation is not indicative of a speed feat.

      Koto is programmed to Itachi's own eye, that will not help him. Itachi's genjutsu on Izumi is not canon though. And no, it was real Itachi that placed Kakashi under Tsukuyomi, not 30% clone Itachi. 30% clone Itachi's genjutsu was easily shrugged off by a shadow clone of Kakashi.

      Itachi's sharingan genjutsu doesn't actually seem all that special if you know what to expect.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0

      No speed feat for Itachi in the instance of him versus Naruto and Bee. A single dodge from Samehada and the scuffle between Itachi and Naruto when they are trying to have a conversation is not indicative of a speed feat.

      Koto is programmed to Itachi's own eye, that will not help him. Itachi's genjutsu on Izumi is not canon though. And no, it was real Itachi that placed Kakashi under Tsukuyomi, not 30% clone Itachi. 30% clone Itachi's genjutsu was easily shrugged off by a shadow clone of Kakashi.

      Itachi's sharingan genjutsu doesn't actually seem all that special if you know what to expect.

      You can’t say no plot then say Itachi’ koto is restricted to his own eye. What’s stopping him from reprogramming it? Nothing.

      It is a combat/reaction speed feat. It is shown in both anime and manga. Plus it was a 30% clone. In fact it was nagato’ impersonation jutsu.

      Izumi is canon, the novel is canon, this very forum hosts a timeline that confirms it.

      Just because that what it seems like doesn’t mean that’s what it is.

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    • @Hag0r0m0

      But then you are giving Itachi prep time if you allow him to use Koto. Plus additional prep time for re-programming of koto for combat. You are confused between two instances, the first is the 30% shape-shifting technique Nagato used on Itachi, back when he fought team 7 with Chiyo. The second is when edo Nagato and Itachi fought Bee and Naruto.

      In the second instance mentioned above, there is no speed feat for Itachi because, 1) Naruto and Itachi were trying to have a conversation, therefore they are not fighting full out and 2) One dodge from Samehada doesn't make Itachi a speed monster.

      The first instance mentioned above showcased a clone shrugging off Itachi's genjutsu and furthermore no indication of a speed feat, since Kakashi was fighting quite fine.

      Izumi is not canon, sorry.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      All I see is excuses and dodging. I wash my hands with you. I'm not addressing you moving onwards if all you're going to do is make statements without proper sources. I questioned your source and said you made that up and you failed to prove your sources credibility. You still refuse to provide evidence, so I don't need to do anything else.

      Besides. Kakashi said it himself. He can compete with Itachi cause he has Sharingan. So i don't need to waste my time. You can call it whatever you like, him not thinking straight, him losing his mind, etc. It doesn't matter, he thought that and didn't against Orochimaru.

      I actually said I will tell the website I'm using provided you tell me what I want to know, but you for some reason you don't want me to know what website your using when you make these claims about what Kakashi and Itachi said. Also you haven't told me where you posted chapters 142 or 257.

      The funny thing is, Kakashi when up against Oro, just like when he was up against Itachi and thought he could take him until Oro showed his strength, it was similar with Itachi. So that doesn't really prove that Oro was superior at all.

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    • @Loneninja

      Peripheral vision is a thing, plus he was pretty far away from the smokescreen. the totsuka blade is also a fairly large object. It's impossible to miss an object like that coming out of the smokescreen. It is more accurate to say nagato barely had the time to even make a slight alteration to his eye position- that is the speed of the blade.


      Lol kakashi can't do anything though even if he was full against kaguya. how is he gonna compete? how is he gonna do anything meaningful? it's basically the same situation with orochimaru. the best kakashi said he could do to oro was throw away his life, but you are neglecting the fact that he had a huge raikiri in his hand and was willing to fight if need be. kakashi isn't a coward. he has shown the ability to try and fight against impossible odds, even in the kaguya situation, but he also knows that there is a time to sit out a fight and there is a time to sacrifice your life. Jiraiya had that same circumstance when he decided to go back out and fight the 6 paths of pain for the last bit of intel even though he knew it was certain death.

      kakashi fought itachi knowing itachi was superior to him because kakashi had nothing to lose. The fight is in konoha. there is no where to retreat to, but he has allies by his side. so might as well try and fight and stop the intruders. kakashi thought he had a chance to resist itachi's genjutsu, and he was right. Notice how itachi didn't bother using 3 tomoe genjutsu on him. itachi even stated kakashi resisted his tsykyomi a little despite not being an uchiha blood due to his skill with sharingan.


      Obito was scared of itachi because obito only made his big moves when he knew itachi was about to die. I already told you why itachi didn't make a move on obito. first he has to find obito. then what is he gonna do if obito decides to stay intangible for 5 minutes and retreat/call for back-up? obito is wary of itachi. he would call nagato at minimum for back-up, and then itachi is stuck with a 2-1 on fight. itachi can take nagato, itachi can take obito, but he can't take them both at the same time without having a high chance of death. itachi would retreat from that fight or simply be killed, and then the whole akatsuki deal is over. itachi would go rouge and abide his opportunities to ambush an akatsuki member/use koto, and then the village would be in all out-war with the akatsuki. who is to say that itachi and naruto wouldn't teamup in this alternate storyline? but see, killing itachi, as you said, wouldn't be in obito's favour either, as itachi was useful for catching the bijuu and other stuff. also, you are forgetting that itachi genuinely thought obito was madara. but in an actual battle obito isn't on madara's level, he literally only has kamui allowing him to compete.and no, itachi wanted to die by sasuke's hand since the beginning. this was stated multiple times. it was just a matter of when. itachi waited until the akatsuki was down to half its strength, and itachi was also dying of his terminal illness, who knows how long he had left? he wanted sasuke to be the one to kill him since the night of the massacre of the uchiha clan. itachi if anything was cautious of "madara uchiha" not obito. he set the trap to kill "madara" and then had a backup trap in case it failed. his primary objective was making sure sasuke didn't learn the truth. his secondary objective was taking a shot at obito for konoha's sake. but obviously, he wanted konoha to do most of the heavy lifting, otherwise he wouldn't have waited until he was on the cusp of death due to his illness and guilt over sasuke to make a contingency.

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    • @Brain

      As I said. Nothing to say since there's no evidence listed. I don't need to post picture of chapters because no one has denied that's what the pages said or shown, unless you are? Which if you do, I have no problem posting a source to prove you wrong and ruining your credibility. But I questioned your source itself, saying the source you provided is fake. You can do the same, and I'll be much obliged to prove once again, that I am right. Just name which one is wrong.

      @Combat

      Those statements are just based on your opinions, so i'm not going to acknowledge them. I've gotten to the point where I just want cold hard facts, if you can't bring that to me; you're just wasting mine and your time.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Brain

      As I said. Nothing to say since there's no evidence listed. I don't need to post picture of chapters because no one has denied that's what the pages said or shown, unless you are? Which if you do, I have no problem posting a source to prove you wrong and ruining your credibility. But I questioned your source itself, saying the source you provided is fake. You can do the same, and I'll be much obliged to prove once again, that I am right. Just name which one is wrong.

      @Combat

      Those statements are just based on your opinions, so i'm not going to acknowledge them. I've gotten to the point where I just want cold hard facts, if you can't bring that to me; you're just wasting mine and your time.

      Forget about the point about what Kakashi said, it doesn't matter. The mere fact that Kakashi thought he could handle Oro, until Oro showed his strength, is enough. It was exactly the same with Itachi, Kakashi thought he could handle him until he showed his true strength. What was different was Kakashi was shown to be sweating way more against Itachi, than against Oro.

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    • Orochimaru and Kakashi never fought. They only exchanged words. They talked about Orochimaru's village, his pawns, and then Sasuke. Then after hearing what Sasuke was, Kakashi gathered his Lightning Blade.

      Kakashi: "Even though you are one of those three ninjas, right now i can at least compete with you..."

      Orochimaru just laughs and say his seal was useless. Then he explicitly says...

      Orochimaru: "You were going to compete with me? Why don't you try?" Turning his back and walking away carelessly.

      Orochimaru: "If you can that is..."

      Kakashi's eyes widen in fear and freezes in his place.

      Kakashi: "Compete with him? Am I an idiot?"'

      Kakashi literally said he'd be an idiot if he thought he could compete with him. Meanwhile against Itachi, he said he can compete using his Sharingan. Completely different.

      Him sweating is your proof he was more scared? I think freezing in place in fear, eyes wide, and calling himself an idiot if he thinks he can fight > sweat. He still went heads with Itachi, he didn't even make a step towards Orochimaru.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: Orochimaru and Kakashi never fought. They only exchanged words. They talked about Orochimaru's village, his pawns, and then Sasuke. Then after hearing what Sasuke was, Kakashi gathered his Lightning Blade.

      Kakashi: "Even though you are one of those three ninjas, right now i can at least compete with you..."

      Orochimaru just laughs and say his seal was useless. Then he explicitly says...

      Orochimaru: "You were going to compete with me? Why don't you try?" Turning his back and walking away carelessly.

      Orochimaru: "If you can that is..."

      Kakashi's eyes widen in fear and freezes in his place.

      Kakashi: "Compete with him? Am I an idiot?"'

      Kakashi literally said he'd be an idiot if he thought he could compete with him. Meanwhile against Itachi, he said he can compete using his Sharingan. Completely different.

      Him sweating is your proof he was more scared? I think freezing in place in fear, eyes wide, and calling himself an idiot if he thinks he can fight > sweat. He still went heads with Itachi, he didn't even make a step towards Orochimaru.

      Oro used his killing intent to cause a fearful reaction from Kakashi and Itachi showed his MS to do the same.

      It's your assumption, Kakashi was frozen in place, we don't know if Kakashi could move or not, he didn't try. Kakashi could of just decided there's nothing he could do to Oro and let him leave. Kakashi eyes were wider and he was sweating more against Itachi, when he was about to use Tsukuyomi.

      It doesn't make a difference if Oro and Kakashi physically fought or not. Itachi could of done the same thing if he wanted. All he would have to do is to turn on MS from the start of the battle and than boom, Itachi causes a fearful reaction to Kakashi without even fighting. Oro only caused Kakashi to fear fighting him after Oro's killing intent reached him. After Itachi used Tsukuyomi Kakashi didn't think he could beat Itachi, himself.


      Also in the translation of that chapter I'm reading he doesn't say:


      Kakashi: Compete with him? Am I idiot

      He says this:

      Kakashi: Did I miscalculate?! What kind of fool am I?!

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0

      But then you are giving Itachi prep time if you allow him to use Koto. Plus additional prep time for re-programming of koto for combat. You are confused between two instances, the first is the 30% shape-shifting technique Nagato used on Itachi, back when he fought team 7 with Chiyo. The second is when edo Nagato and Itachi fought Bee and Naruto.

      In the second instance mentioned above, there is no speed feat for Itachi because, 1) Naruto and Itachi were trying to have a conversation, therefore they are not fighting full out and 2) One dodge from Samehada doesn't make Itachi a speed monster.

      The first instance mentioned above showcased a clone shrugging off Itachi's genjutsu and furthermore no indication of a speed feat, since Kakashi was fighting quite fine.

      Izumi is not canon, sorry.

      Koto should be allowed because the OP says alive with no sickness, not ‘before shisui dies’ or ‘without shisui’ eyes’. Likewise, the OP doesn’t state this fight takes place after he programed koto. Plus it’s no different from kakashi receiving obito’ sharingan. That said, koto should force orochimaru to forfeit or tsukuyomi kills him. Like it or not, Itachi’ novel are canon. The speed feat does exist because they were fighting in that moment. Not many words were exchanged in those exact panels, if any at all. No one called him a speed monster smh. You can’t debunk what’s literally handed to you on a platter in the manga.

      Itachi has completed missions PERFECTLY. In this regard, he is unrivaled in efficiently. Even shikamaru has ran into unforeseen problems. So think about that and how Itachi has always been in control of the situations he’s put in.

      This match ends faster than the Itachi v. Deidara fight.

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    • Where are you reading that from? That isn't even in the anime either. But even so, fool = idiot. It remains the same. Kakashi froze in fear. He didn't freeze against Itachi. But against Orochimaru he just stood there afraid, unable to do anything as he let a wanted rogue criminal walk away.

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    • @Hag0r0m0

      Check again who the OP is. Koto needs to be reprogrammed to be used in combat, then also it comes into question whether koto will be available for use in the first place due to 10 year cool down period. And no, I'm not allowing it just to pander to your assumptions.

      Speed feat doesn't exist for the reasons mentioned above, explain to me why my points are invalid. Don't tell me I can't debunk something that is featless. Otherwise I can say that Kurenai is faster than Itachi because she could dodge Itachi's kunai.

      Itachi completed missions perfectly? What is meant by that? Killing Obito? Failed. Manipulating Sasuke? Failed. Hindering the Akatsuki? Failed. Unrivaled in efficiency? In what exactly lol. Itachi always been in control of the situations he's put in? Yeah, forgot about when he was reanimated by Kabuto or when he was "forced" to kill off his clan.

      My point is not to dismantle each of your points, but to point out that you like to hype up Itachi, but say nothing about how this battle will go. Maybe try to give a rundown of this fight, taking into account how these two combatants will think and how they will fight in their preferred methods.

      Novels are not canon, it's not about whether I like it or not.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: Where are you reading that from? That isn't even in the anime either. But even so, fool = idiot. It remains the same. Kakashi froze in fear. He didn't freeze against Itachi. But against Orochimaru he just stood there afraid, unable to do anything as he let a wanted rogue criminal walk away.

      Orochimaru and Itachi are two different people. One is immortal, and the other is a skilled genius. He met Itachi in the middle of the village, in an open field, along with Asuma and Kurenei and knew eventually there would be back ups. And in this case, Itachi can be killed or hurt, as he is mortal, and Kakashi's attempt won't be in vain.

      While on the other case, he met Orochimaru in a hidden building or somewhere, where he thought he was safe from everyone. Orochimaru appeared out of nowhere and showes him to be unfazed by Kakashi's Chidori. Orochimaru then laughed on how Kakashi said "Atleast I can kill you as you kill me", since it was universal that Oro is an immortal, and can't be killed. A simple Chidori will not do anything, and Kakashi knowing that was out of odds, he had to protect Sasuke, but he knew he can't kill Orochimaru, and he knew backup won't come either. And he knew Orochimaru had hundred of ways to kill him and take Sasuke away. If he said that to Jiraya or Tsunade, it would be reasonable( a little not in Tsunade's case) but not even the prisioners that were being freed in Oro's lairs weren't fully convinced that Orochimaru is dead. They even questioned if he can be killed? That's why Sasuke killing Orochimaru was a big thing at that time.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: Where are you reading that from? That isn't even in the anime either. But even so, fool = idiot. It remains the same. Kakashi froze in fear. He didn't freeze against Itachi. But against Orochimaru he just stood there afraid, unable to do anything as he let a wanted rogue criminal walk away.

      It’s from itachi’ novel. This very forum has multiple official timelines, the novels appear on them all. Itach beats orochimaru. He bested orochimaru already. In fact, it was orochimaru’ loss to Itachi that made him leave the akatsuki. Why would two edos change what the manga makes crystal clear. Itachi wins.

      Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0

      Check again who the OP is. Koto needs to be reprogrammed to be used in combat, then also it comes into question whether koto will be available for use in the first place due to 10 year cool down period. And no, I'm not allowing it just to pander to your assumptions.

      Speed feat doesn't exist for the reasons mentioned above, explain to me why my points are invalid. Don't tell me I can't debunk something that is featless. Otherwise I can say that Kurenai is faster than Itachi because she could dodge Itachi's kunai.

      Itachi completed missions perfectly? What is meant by that? Killing Obito? Failed. Manipulating Sasuke? Failed. Hindering the Akatsuki? Failed. Unrivaled in efficiency? In what exactly lol. Itachi always been in control of the situations he's put in? Yeah, forgot about when he was reanimated by Kabuto or when he was "forced" to kill off his clan.

      My point is not to dismantle each of your points, but to point out that you like to hype up Itachi, but say nothing about how this battle will go. Maybe try to give a rundown of this fight, taking into account how these two combatants will think and how they will fight in their preferred methods.

      Novels are not canon, it's not about whether I like it or not.

      Why add in more rules on the fly if not to nerf one side of the fight? Your original post did not say koto was already programmed. You must realize that Itachi spent many years alive without sickness. You are deliberately attempting to pick a specific point in the range of time where koto is already programmed. Which sucks for you because I can just as easily point to moments before when it wasn’t programed. Both meet the criteria of the OP. You are free to change the original match, but that in it self is a concession. The speed feat does exist for the reasons mentioned above. Your denial of Itachi’ blatant superior reaction to Naruto and bee is amusing. Those events are solidified. Itachi took several steps back while Naruto and bee were still striking. So tell me again how were they distracted at the that very moment. Chapter 549 pages 5, 11, and 14 you’ll see Itachi and nagato helping bee and Naruto. Page 7 is where you’ll find the blitz, remind me again how were they distraction during their attack?

      Why create false equivalences when you can just concede? I take it you haven’t read the novel. Don’t worry it was stated in manga also. His efficiency on missions were perfect.[1] If he treats this fight like another mission, it’s his W. How exactly is orochimaru going to win here? Itachi’ knowledge of jutsu makes him more than prepared.[2]

      Yea, but I’m not hyping him. I just gave you evidence of most of what I told you. I got proof of the rest also. So yes, Orochimaru lose and you now know why.

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    • @Hag0r0m0

      As I said before, I'm not pandering to your multiple assumptions on koto's use. And no, that is not adding anything to this fight, in fact the DP has remained unchanged, and it will remain so. It was very clear that Itachi's use of koto was strictly not for combat. So you trying to use it for combat goes above the realm of possibility.

      Now, ch549, page 6, Itachi jumps in, Naruto jumps up to engage. They both have a little skirmish while trying to have a conversation and falling back to the ground. They both reach the ground. Page 7, Bee comes in for a swing of Samehada, which Itachi dodges. Itachi then re-positions himself next to Nagato all the while they are still conversing with one another.

      So once again, there isn't a speed feat for Itachi since, 1) Itachi and Naruto are both in the air, foot-speed is non-existent. 2) Itachi dodging Bee's Samehada isn't indicative of footspeed. 3) At no point did Itachi out speed, outmaneuver or outrun Naruto or Bee. 4) Itachi and Naruto were trying to have a conversation, and were clearly not going full out battle mode.

      So once again there is not a speed feat. If you want to say there is, give valid reasons why my points 1-4 are not correct. Also, I never said anyone was distracted lol. Don't spew falsities.

      I guess you disregarded my points at how Itachi failed. Sure, it's nice to disregard what you don't like.

      Give a rundown, then we can talk.

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    • @Blaze

      Orochimaru's "Immortality" wasn't universal until he killed Hiruzen. So no.

      @Hag0r0mo

      Two Edo's can do a lot. A single edo was able to save the entire Shinobi Alliance. So quit downplaying, Konan and Kimimaro provide options that inhibit Itachi.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @Blaze

      Orochimaru's "Immortality" wasn't universal until he killed Hiruzen. So no.

      If I remember right, Hiruzen discovered Oro's experimentation on Immortality with a forbidden long ago. Also Jiraya did spy on Orochimaru.

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    • @Loneninja

      I brought you cold-hard facts though.

      the totsuka blade is hypersonic+++, defeating both orochimaru and nagato without so much as a mental reaction from either.


      while most of the itachi vs obito thing is opininated, I simply pointed out there were many complicated circumstances surrounding itachi and his time in the akatsuki. What did I prove here though is that itachi didn't have a complete set of knowledge about obito's abilities, which is what caused merely ONE of itachi's fail-safes to fail, notice i used plural for the word "safes". so this whole argument about itachi being weaker in tactics compared to konan has been debunked. I also referenced several feats of his tactical prowess in other battles that also debunk that claim. konoha was always intended to do most of the heavy lifting against obito and the akatsuki, otherwise itachi would have taken out some more members before dying, and even then that wouldn't be easy. Even if obito is the head, obito clearly complained about the dwindling members of the akatsuki. by the end of it all the akatsuki was reduced to obito, kisame, and zetsu.recruitment wasn't as easy as you made it seem.

      so, back to the battle, and why itachi wins. Itachi's ideal goal would be to line the trio up and take them out in one go with the totsuka blade. I see no reaction feats from the trio to suggest they could react to a totsuka blade finisher supplemented by an effective diversion (orochimaru already can't mentally react, konan got tagged by a much slower attack already, and unless you think kimimaro has better reflexes than oro I don't see it happening. so if it comes down to that, it's over for them. On the flip-side, I can fairly acknowledge that kimimaro's bone dance technique is a win-condition for team oro. itachi is a 1v1 specialist, so many of his normal advantages are dwindled in this fight. But like I said before, it's about execution. Itachi is faster than each of these opponents in every way, jutsu speed, reflexes, movement speed, striking speed plus a MS sharingan enhancing his own reflexes, but the fact he is up against 3 opponents might even out the stat differences in speed, but he still has much better offensive and defensive hax. he can practically ignore 99 percent of their attacks by using susano'o. so, the bone dance technique is a trump card, something they use when itachi's focus is completely misdirected. But how do they set it up? konan has a really one dimensional arsenal if she fires origami projectiles, he would dodge those, use katon, or susano'o, paper bombs can also be prematurely detonated by katon. she probably would throw a ton of papers to blind him, and then kimimaro can cast his bone technique, but itachi isn't a purely reactionary fighter. he insightful enough to see through konan's tactic with the papers and he would clear most of them with katon. And in the smokescreen he would swap himself out with a crow clone while he tries to flank. what will orochimaru do exactly though? none of these fighters can deal with itachi's ninjutsu combos and clone feints. even if he can't line them up, i don't see how they outsmart him when he should be able to react to each of their attacks. they get exploding shadow clone feinted or crow clone feinted, and oro gets caught in tsykuyomi, konan ain't reacting to the blade, and basic genjutsu feint + totsuka finishes off kimimaro, he can even use the finger genjutsu and that would be a sufficient diversion for kimi.

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    • @Combat

      First you said the speed of sound which is 1.1 feet per millisecond. Now you're saying hypersonic which is 5.5+ feet per millisecond? You don't even know the speed you're arguing about. Nagato couldn't react cause he was looking up and was stabbed below from within the smoke. Orochimaru was stabbed cause he didn't care.

      You were wrong about Izanagi. You were wrong about the smoke. You're giving me two different speeds. You were wrong about a lot, so why should I even take in what you say when your interpretation is consistently wrong?

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    • Oro can easily summon Rashomon Gates to divert Itachi's TB, which he already knows about. Konan can easily turn into paper upon being stabbed, not to mention Orochimaru can just use his body replacement technique to escape before he is sealed away. If Orochimaru has access to Kabuto's techniques (Strange Transmission Distant Shadow and the like), he could easily break down his body and escape being stabbed. Not to mention he could use use the genjutsu on Itachi and trap him. Without another Sharingan user to help him escape, he is pretty much screwed.

      Orochimaru may have been defeated easily with Genjutsu the first time and the Totsuka Blade the second time, but since he has knowledge of the past encounters, his chances of survival go up exponentially. Even if Itachi catches Oro in genjutsu, Kimimaro and Konan keeping him on the ropes for even a second is long enough for Oro to break the Genjutsu. With access to the KG and abilities of the Sound 4 (5), Orochimaru has a great advantage over Itachi this time around. Add in actual Senjutsu (non curse seal) and his power and range are increased several times over.

      Not saying it will be easy, but I don't see Itachi beating Orochimaru this time around.

      @ Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki "It’s from itachi’ novel. This very forum has multiple official timelines, the novels appear on them all."

      Yeah, no. Novels aren't canon and this wikia DOESN'T have multiple OFFICIAL timelines. There is only 1 canon timeline and that is the Manga and "The Last" movie along with anything else that was official stated as being "Canon". The novel for the Boruto Movie set the foundation for the movie itself, iirc, so if it indeed came before said characters were featured in the manga, then it may be considered canon to an extent.

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    • @loneninja

      Nope. I did research and most people say that the rasenshuriken is hypersonic. Totsuka blade is faster than that. We already have been through this.

      Sure, nagato conveniently lost his peripheral vision according to you. This is the lengths you go to downplay a clear speed feat lol. Nagato was stabbed in his chest. he got wtfblitzed, end of story.

      Orochimaru also got wtfblitzed. I showed you crystal clear proof of the question mark that appears in his dialouge when he got stabbed. I clearly showed you that he was stabbed in between words. it's obvious itachi only needs a second to land that blade. These opponents aren't anywhere near raikage levels of speed and reflexes. Why should I take you seriously when you can't acknowledge a clear speed feat? There is no more excuse left to play. Nagato has reacted to smokescreen attacks before. his lack of mobility is irrelevant because he uses preta path and shinra tensei to block most attacks, which require only a mental reaction. Orochimaru didn't care AFTER he already got blitzed , and initially believed he was fine due to his immortality, so let's not twist that around. he got blitzed, period. me being wrong about izanagi is irrelevant, as I retracted it and showed that itachi simply didn't know enough about kamui.

      @Princeharris Rashomon gates are irrelevant. Orochimaru sees the blade and bends down to summon the gates one second, and the next second he is stabbed by the totsuka blade as per canon. There is a clear difference in jutsu speed between the two. Nothing says the blade can't penetrate those walls either. Itachi can also simply run around the gates.

      Wrong, konan cannot turn into paper after being stabbed. orochimaru couldn't use oral rebirth after being stabbed or he would have done it last time. nagato couldn't use any more jutsu after being stabbed and kabuto even lost control over him. the totsuka blade clearly is a one shot finisher, no second chances.

      Experience from previous counters goes both ways. orochimaru didn't suddenly gain anything new that would be able to deal with itachi. everything new that orochimaru has itachi has already seen. the best thing orochimaru has going for him is the genjutsu immunity in sage mode, which again is irrelevant because itachi has a whole lot more going on outside of genjutsu.

      You also choose static scenarios for counters. You assume itachi would put oro in a regular genjutsu and not have any follow up attacks and just stand there and wait for konan and kimimaro to free orochimaru. This isn't shoten itachi vs team rescue gaara, where he was obviously jobbing and was missing 70 percent of his reserves. I already stated, he overlays attacks. he has faster jutsu speed. He puts oro in genjutsu, he spawns an exploding shadow clone in the blindspot of the others simultaenously just like he did to kakashi. orochimaru gets wtfblitzed by totsuka. the shadow clone can cast any jutsu itachi can, and once it outlives it's usefulness it can explode and create another opening. Konan and kimiaro can't match itachi's speed, their speed feats don't cut it. they will be able to get off a few attacks but again, katon and susano'o counters konan. kimimaro 's best hope is to launch his bone dance, which isn't finishing itachi since it's literally the only attack he has to worry about. itachi won't be distracted by anything orochimaru and konan can do because susano'o ignores almost all of it, and he can finish oro before his problematic jutsu come into play.

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    • @Combat

      All you given me so far is opinions. No factual evidence to support anything on Totsuka's speed. Orochimaru's Eight Branches didn't seem super slower just barely, than Itachi's Susano. Nagato is clearly looking up which you haven't denied so it doesn't matter what you say. He didn't see it coming cause he didn't see it. You also can't even get your speed down. Hypersonic is not supersonic. Hyper sonic > supersonic. First you said it was sound speed, now you're increasing it. That alone discredits you. Next you going to say it's mac 20? LOL. Finally you have given no evidence to even suggest Rasenshuriken is hypersonic speed. So your argument fails indefinitely until there's proof on that.

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    • @Loneninja

      I accept your concession. You ignored peripheral vision, and didn't address it, and haven't denied it either. He also isn't looking as high as you seem to be claiming him to be either. It's just an excuse at this point. He saw the blade, he simply couldn't react.

      I didn't "increase" anything. I simply did more research. the rasenshuriken was seen crossing a crater at a speed that would make it hypersonic during the final skirmish with deva path, in the same manga panels I referenced to you earlier, starting from chapter 441 pg 17. Do the calcs/research, it's a popular topic across the fanbases online. The calc is based on the fact that shinra tensei has a 5 second cool down, and after about one second passed the rasenshuriken that naruto threw at pain already crossed the mountain sized crater about halfway. and Regardless of the actual numerical speed of the blade, it's faster than orochimaru's reaction time, which is all that matters. And Itachi's blade was decapitating those snakes without much of a problem in the manga, so no clue what you are talking about it.

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    • "I accept your concession" Another example as to how you put things that aren't there. Good job further disproving your credibility. I'm not going to address everything you say, especially stuff that is irrelevant. He was caught off guard due to not being able to see the object clearly. Using your own popular argument against you on this one.

      More opinions. Not on the wiki. I'm pretty sure if such evidence existed, it'd be on the wiki. The fact you brought this up and haven't even attempted to add that information, must mean you don't even find whatever you're reading as viable proof. So disregarded.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: Oro can easily summon Rashomon Gates to divert Itachi's TB, which he already knows about. Konan can easily turn into paper upon being stabbed, not to mention Orochimaru can just use his body replacement technique to escape before he is sealed away. If Orochimaru has access to Kabuto's techniques (Strange Transmission Distant Shadow and the like), he could easily break down his body and escape being stabbed. Not to mention he could use use the genjutsu on Itachi and trap him. Without another Sharingan user to help him escape, he is pretty much screwed.

      Orochimaru may have been defeated easily with Genjutsu the first time and the Totsuka Blade the second time, but since he has knowledge of the past encounters, his chances of survival go up exponentially. Even if Itachi catches Oro in genjutsu, Kimimaro and Konan keeping him on the ropes for even a second is long enough for Oro to break the Genjutsu. With access to the KG and abilities of the Sound 4 (5), Orochimaru has a great advantage over Itachi this time around. Add in actual Senjutsu (non curse seal) and his power and range are increased several times over.

      Not saying it will be easy, but I don't see Itachi beating Orochimaru this time around.

      @ Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki "It’s from itachi’ novel. This very forum has multiple official timelines, the novels appear on them all."

      Yeah, no. Novels aren't canon and this wikia DOESN'T have multiple OFFICIAL timelines. There is only 1 canon timeline and that is the Manga and "The Last" movie along with anything else that was official stated as being "Canon". The novel for the Boruto Movie set the foundation for the movie itself, iirc, so if it indeed came before said characters were featured in the manga, then it may be considered canon to an extent.

      Itachi novel is canon. You saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

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    • ^Actually you saying it is doesn't make it so.

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    • @Loneninja

      It's a concession. you claiming something is irrelevant when it clearly is relevant means you don't have a counterargument, or if you do, you refuse to speak your mind for whatever reason, and I can't read minds. either way, my point still stands until the argument has been sufficiently refuted.

      You going back to previously refuted arguments is proof. I don't care about the smokescreen because nagato has reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens multiple times, and I showed proof. You even go as far as to claim he can't see the blade due to his pupils being at a slight angle upward, as if that somehow erases his peripheral vision. The human eye can see objects to the side, and above and below it's direct line of sight within a certain range. anyone with a silver of life experience knows that, and I'm sure you know it too, it's just a matter of admitting that the blade is fast is the problem for you. If the blade was as slow as you claimed he would have reacted to it by seeing a large yellow object coming toward him in his lower peripheral vision.

      Furthermore, You ignore what see on panel. We clearly see orochimaru could not mentally react to the blade. But see, you skip that panel and don't address it. You then focus on the panel where orochimaru laughs the blade off. I am more than capable of looking at all the facts. The facts are simple: orochimaru could not react to the blade, it clearly caught him in between words, and he was surprised. AFTER, he thought he didn't have anything to worry about because he knows he is immortal and highly durable, the guy can tank punches from tsunade..., and most attacks aren't gonna kill him. Then he realized that he was stabbed by the totsuka blade which is a one shot sword of sealing, and then his facial expression changes to surprise/anxiety.

      And plz, save me your third concession. I don't work on anyone's schedule here nor is it my job to constantly take extra time out of my day to update and micromanage the wiki for supplementary details that should be common knowledge, and you are the only person here who has contested the feat to my knowledge. You can see with your eyes in chapter 442 pg 6-10 that the rasenshuriken crosses a huge crater comparable to mountain size in under a second. How do I know it's a second? because kishimoto kindly narrates through deva path how much time is passing in those panels. A simple estimation of the diameter of that crater relative to the mountains in the background plus the time interval of one second allows you to use the simple formula , speed = distance/time, and the rasenshuriken is clearly hypersonic levels of speed. you don't even need to sit down and do the math and get an exact number, the size of the crater alone tells you. The panel is there, i referenced it to you, you can see those things for yourself. If I feel the need to actually modify the rasenshuriken article, I can go through the proper channels on my own time, I don't need to do that to convince one person in a versus debate board when i already cited the manga as evidence. The fact that it isn't listed in the article could simply mean no one has broached the subject of calculating the speed of rasenshuriken.

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    • 1) I accept your concession that he was caught off guard.

      2) So what if there was a question mark? Doesn't mean anything. Whether he seen it or not, he'd still talk. If he was interrupted there'd still be a question mark. He said he said he didn't care, that's enough proof for me.

      3) I use this argument because people who like spouting fallacy are easily shut down. A simple permanent change in the wiki and the argument is over. But you don't do it? That's cause it's false.

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    • @Loneninja

      1)Nope he wasn't caught off guard. You can clearly see the movement lines around nagato which indicate his body jerked when he was stabbed. it's not surprising that his eye suffered a reflex. He was clearly looking at the center of the smoke, where the blade emerged. Even if his eyes were in that position before the blade struck him, there is still peripheral vision. He can see the blade. This is blatant denial of an on panel feat.

      2) Sure, the question mark doesn't mean anything, when it means the blade is fast lol. he wouldn't have a question mark in his dialouge for any other reason. he was in the middle of making a statement, which ends in a period, not a question mark. The question mark is due to his surprise. The only thing he can be surprised at in that panel is the speed of the blade. One panel the blade isn't anywhere near him, and the next panel the blade is coursing through him with evidence of surprise for him. as long as itachi has the totsuka blade, orochimaru isn't even a threat to half dead & blind itachi.

      3) Yeah, classic strawman. The wiki article even tells you it's fast based on those same chapters I linked, turns out there isn't even much to edit despite you making it such a big deal. I'm not taking the time out to sit down and do calcs for something that obvious and for a user that doesn't look at the evidence. It's clearly hypersonic based on the feat, you not being able to see that is on you. and lol, so basically your argument is that unless I post an edit on the wiki as opposed to the naruto versus debate forum, I'm not contributing? Because I haven't taken it to the talkpage, my argument is a fallacy? sure. That's something you made up. But sure, I'll play your game. I'll leave a note on the talkpage, even though it makes no difference. I've provided the evidence I've needed to.

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    • @Combat

      Well, I can clearly see that you and @Lone are going at it, and I ask that you two please remain civil. My concern with the TB is that I don't see any speed feats. Let me explain my view point,

      1) TB used against Orochimaru. Before the instance, Itachi used the TB to slice off the heads of Orochimaru's eight branches technique. Orochimaru pops out, monologues, get stabbed, laughs it off, gets sealed.

      2) TB used against Nagato. Before the instance, Itachi saves Bee and Naruto by slicing off Nagato's mechanical arm. Itachi blinds the summoned creatures preventing shared vision. Smoke, Nagato stabbed, Nagato monologue, Nagato sealed dramatically.

      Now, I don't see a speed feat for instance 1), since, target was standing still, target seemed to have no reason to dodge, target was not visibly out-sped or outmaneuvered. I don't see a speed feat for instance 2), since, target was once again standing still, target was still limited in movement. I'm not even sure if the target was in control at that moment.

      My biggest gripe with those claiming that there is a speed feat, is the nature of the exaggeration. Even if there is a speed feat, how does it have such a great meaning? Nagato and Orochimaru are not known for their speed, they are not mentioned as being speed demons or some of the fastest in the series.

      Reaction speed does not equal foot speed, they are separate. And just because a character has one, doesn't mean the character has the other. Instance 1) and 2) are not conclusive on reaction or foot speed since there is no measure of comparison for the reasons mentioned above.

      So, could you please explain to me, by addressing my points on the matter and what you see? Since I don't see significance in those instances regarding speed for the TB.

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    • @Ninja of War


      The reason I see it as a speed feat is that although itachi's targets were immobile, Kishimoto has shown us hints that the blade is really fast.

      Nagato and orochimaru aren't known for reflexes, but nagato isn't exactly average either. he reacted to kcm naruto's chakra arm rasengan and other highly fast attacks, and orochimaru has good reaction feats too. My point about the totsuka blade is that it's faster than orochimaru's ability to react, and by extension konan and kimimaro who have not shown reaction feats that would convince me they would do better than orochimaru. Factor in the fact that itachi use's diversions when he fights and I'm sold on the ability for the blade to tag these specific opponents.

      So now that I have re clarified my argument, your points will be addressed

      1) I would agree with you except for the fact that kishimoto puts in a question mark at the end of orochimaru's statement. That question mark doesn't belong there because orochimaru was making a statement, not a question. The question mark therefore is the platform for my argument, a question mark in that context is used to indicate surprise. he was clearly surprised by being stabbed out of nowhere. His surprise is what tells me it's a speed feat, he literally got stabbed in between words. he only laughed it off afterward, after he already got blitzed. so, why does orochimaru's foot speed matter if he can't react to the blade in the first place? you have to react before you can run.

      2)Again, similiar scenario. Why people focus on Nagato's mobility is beyond me. He was never known for his mobility. No one ever regarded him as an overwhelming speedster. Nagato was in control by kabuto, so he was active in the fight. He was doing kabuto's bidding. It's been shown that when a user is under control they do kabuto's absolute bidding. Nagato didn't cast that chibaku tensei because he was being friendly. He was simply awaiting itachi's next move, but it was too bad he got blitzed before he could do anything about it. My point here is, Nagato's biggest selling point is preta path and shinra tensei. Those two jutsu are by far his most annoying defensive jutsu, and they are also the fastest to activate, all they require is a mental reaction, a thought, a reflex. That's all. And he couldn't use either jutsu to defend himself. that constitutes a clear speed feat in my book. That manga panel shows it all. Either way you twist it, he could see the blade and he simply couldn't react. Kabuto lost control over nagato AFTER nagato was stabbed.

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    • @Combat

      The reason I'm talking about mobility, or in this case the lack thereof, is that is the best way to determine if there is a speed feat or not. If someone outmaneuvers, out-speeds or outruns someone else, we can definitely say the first is faster. Reaction speed is not equivalent to this for obvious reasons.

      The main reason it isn't, is due to the nature of the reaction. A shinobi needs to "see" an attack in order to react to it properly. If they cannot sense an attack, or they are out of chakra, jutsu is on cooldown, then they can't react. It's not a direct indication of superior speed when talking about reaction speed.

      1) But what does the question mark mean exactly? Orochimaru could be surprised that Itachi doesn't allow him to finish his monologue. Or that he thinks Itachi has lost his cool and is enraged. There is no direct indication. On Orochimaru laughing the attack off, the eight branches technique was cut down by the TB. Orochimaru had seen this and concluded the TB was just a regular chakra blade.

      2) That's actually a good point you bring up about Nagato repelling TB. Something I noticed from recently watching the Pain vs Jiraiya fight comes to mind though. ch377, pg 15, Jiraiya fighting SPoP(3) and blindsides a Pain in a smoke cloud. Shared vision is active and the Pain blocks the attack, due to the animal path seeing the silhouettes of Jiraiya and the Pain in the smoke cloud.

      ch551, pg 14, smoke cloud in front of Nagato. Shared vision is no longer active. Notice no silhouette from Itachi, Bee or Naruto present. That indicates to me that Nagato couldn't see and therefore he couldn't sense the attack in time. More of a blindside than a speed feat.

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    • Fair enough. I argued itachi is faster than each of them in every way if that is what you are referring to mostly based on speed feats and scaling. But I can address that more after this TB discussion.

      1)See that's actually a well thought out counter-argument by you. I have considered that point of view, but the timing is off. My point about the question mark is the platform of my argument, but it's support is the speed of human speech and the timing. Orochimaru was in the middle of a sentence and before he could utter his final word, "you" he got blitzed, is surprised, and then finishes his sentence. the middle panel is connected to the first row of panels by the dash mark linking "defeat" and you". I would agree with the possibility you mentioned if it wasn't clear that those panels had an extremely small amount of time difference. Itachi only needs one second to land that blade. one second is a long time in the naruto world only when dealing with speedsters like minato and raikage or sages and above, who have the nerve transmision and the speed necessary to react to and avoid that blade. But even people like kakashi and chouza thought that the 5 second cool down between deva path's shinra tensei was almost unexploitable, just to scale the blade a little.

      2) why does the shared vision matter so much? the shared vision simply gives nagato better field of vision than most ninja, even byakugan users, but that doesn't suddenly mean that without the shared vision he can't see attacks right in front of him. There isn't a silhouette yes, but my point is that we have seen him reacting to attacks coming out of smokescreens before many times. naruto vs pain. Chapter 441 pg 16-17, chapter 433 13-14. All examples of him reacting to attacks coming out of smokescreens sufficient he can see it coming out of the smokescreen. The reason that it's still a speed feat is that he can still see the blade coming out of the smoke. sure, the smoke has an effect, but not anymore than the effect it had on the rasenshurikens. Why? because nagato couldn't see through the smoke naruto created either. he didn't see naruto using the transformation justu, nor did he see the naruto clone jumping above the smoke on chapter 433 pg 13-17, and was tricked by it, but that has nothing to do with the fact he could react to the rasenshuriken with preta barrier in the first place. The fact that nagato can react to rasenshurikens coming out of smokescreens but couldn't do so with the totsuka blade clearly shows the blade's speed in my current opinion. Speed feats and reaction feats are also situational because of distance. If the target is far enough away then they can avoid the attack too. but nagato is a good distance away from that smokescreen itachi used. And this is me giving as much advantages to nagato too. There isn't even enough information to say that by the time itachi launched that blade, there was still smoke obscuring nagato's vision. In the following panels we can see that smokescreen was clearing at some unknown rate, but unfortunately, kishimoto limits us to nagato's face in two of the panels. So , I'm just gonna say that the smokescreen was always there until after nagato got stabbed to give him the benefit of the doubt, and even in that event, I think my point about the rasenshurikens still stands.

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    • LoneNinja@

      1) Says the guy who kept ignoring canon for his twisted beliefs. Denied Minato had killing intent. Denied A4 ain't got V2 at that point. Refuses to acknowledge Bee's comment, and feat. What a joke. Your fanboyism won't be taken seriously in the slightest. 2) That's not how burden of proof works. You're the one claiming it does require eye-contact, so you should prove it.

      3) You've yet again proven that your knowledge of this manga, is near 0. Why? Because he cannonically chopped off his bones, with a regular Susano'o blade. The sheer fact you're resorting to false equivalences, tells me that you've no argument, given the fact that Kabuto - a much superior user of Senjutsu - failed to do much against Itachi in canon.

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    • @Kyfie

      What are you even talking about? What relevance does Minato and Ay have in this debate? Stirring the debate off topic can lead to a ban, just so you know. But just in case you've actually got a point and not just blowing stuff out the air.

      1) I assume the killing intent is about Minato vs Ay and Bee. If so, you have not given any proof he had killing intent in that situation. If he had Killing Intent, why didn't he stab Bee like he said he could instead of warning him? Intent means, Purpose, intention, aim, objective. If his objective is to kill, then why isn't Bee stabbed? Why did he leave? Why isn't any of them dead? Why did he waste his time telling Bee he liked him and gave him the name Killer Bee? That's such killing intent right there (Sarcasm).

      "I'm going to kill you but first I'm going to tell you I like you and give you a nickname that will be renowned. I'm also going to tell your brother the next time we meet will be as Kage (killing intent? His intent is to leave obviously). Cause I so want to kill you." ~ Minato Namikaze according to Kyfie's Logic. Makes no sense.

      2) Since we were talking about the Genjutsu Itachi used on Orochimaru, then that's easy.

      "Firstly, this technique requires the use of the Genjutsu: Sharingan." ~Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique.

      "By establishing eye contact with a target, the Sharingan user traps them within a genjutsu" ~Genjutsu: Sharingan.

      You need eye contact for Genjutsu: Sharingan. You need Genjutsu: Sharingan for Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes. Therefore it requires eye contact. Where's your proof it doesn't or is that another false statement everyone can see?

      3) "Because he cannonically chopped of his bones". Lol, and? Where did I ever state he couldn't chop bones? The only thing I said is a surprise attack will get him with Seedling Fern. Nothing about him not being able to cut the bones.

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    • @Combat

      Thanks for taking the time to consider my point of view.

      1) I think we both understand that there is no direct comparison for a speed feat. So that leaves the indirect comparison. It would take more than a question mark as evidence to say for sure. Some supporting evidence is needed.

      2) I looked at the chapters you mentioned. ch 441, Nagato was expecting a rasenshuriken, look at his mental analysis of the battle. Nagato expected the attack and countered it, because he knew it was coming. ch 443, shared vision was active, the preta path pain saw the rasenshuriken as well as the Naraka pain, they were both closer and further away from the rasenshuriken, meaning Nagato had already predicted the attack and countered it.

      Shared vision is very important for Nagato's battle style.

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    • 1)

      I gave you the supporting evidence though. Orochimaru's words "defeat" and "you" are linked by a dash mark. That proves the the top row of panels and middle panel are directly linked in time. In that extremely small interval of time orochimaru got blitzed. you can see the surprise on his face as well as the question mark.

      2) Not quite. in chapter 433, For one, shared vision wasn't in play there. they were all standing one behind the other looking straight ahead, meaning the preta path is actually harming the vision of deva and naraka. Their shared vision's usefulness happens when they are covering different angles, not all the same angles... The whole point of his shared vision is so that he can't get taken from behind easily. If two pains are watching each other then they can see attacks coming from behind, which is what deva and asura did to kakashi. Two, there was no silohuteete in the smoke naruto threw. Nagato didn't know a rasenshuriken was coming, he had no way of knowing that. if he saw the rasenshuriken then that means he would have seen naruto transforming into it, and he would have seen the other naruto jumping. these two facts debunk the idea that he knew those attacks were coming. he was simply reacting in the moment. as for chapter 441, sure you are right nagato was mentally prepared for the first shuriken, but he wasn't mentally prepared for the second shuriken which was hidden behind the first one. Yet he still had time to mentally react to it and two other naruto clones, and then even dodge successfully, and the rasenshuriken is hypersonic based on the speed at which it crossed the crater behind nagato, all in one second.

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    • @Combat

      1) Maybe, but we don't have anything to compare the time interval to. Orochimaru, Itachi, Sasuke and even Zetsu didn't comment on the speed of the TB. I could say the dash indicates an abrupt action, but for it to be a speed feat, it requires more than that.

      2) I said the wrong chapter, my apologies. Ch433 was the one I was talking about. In that chapter, the shared vision occurs. Preta pain was closer to the rasenshuriken, while Naraka pain was the furthermost from the rasenshuriken. My point is with that instance, is that the Nagato was alerted in time to block the second attack. It is not clear which pain saw the second attack first though, it could have been been either preta or naraka pain.

      ch441, actually no, earlier he analyzed that portion of the fight and said, all he had to do was to dodge two rasenshuriken and then he would be able to win. He knew two were coming, and he knew from the instance above the tactic of the double feint. Which is why he was able to dodge the second time around.

      Lol, we really went on a tangent here.

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    • 1) Sasuke never saw the blade from what I could tell. orochimaru was in the way and seemed to have complete control over sasuke's body at the time. Black Zetsu didn't comment on the speed of the blade but he also said the blade and mirror together makes itachi invincible, so go figure. The reason I think it's a speed feat is because orochimaru has not been shown to a monster at reflexes. One second shouldn't be enough time for someone at his level to react. The dash-mark, as you said, at the very least indicates abrupt action. So the next question of interest is, what action could have happened so fast in that small amount of time that it caught orochimaru in between words and made him surprised. well there is a giant yellow blade coursing through him, there isn't any other stimulus. Itachi didn't even take orochimaru seriously in that panel, saying "sasuke, got anything else?". Even so, I think you have addressed my point here fairly even if you still disagree.

      2) Ok,so the shared vision had an effect there but it's not particularly huge. I could argue that Deva path's eyes by itself was enough to see that rasenshuriken. He could still react to the first rasenshuriken that naruto threw in 433 without any issue.


      Ah, fair enough about 441 actually, I forgot deva path actually showed good learning skills. So maybe i can't use chapter 441, but still, edo nagato and kabuto had no reason to not be expecting an attack after chibaku tensei was destroyed. they were facing two perfect jinchuriki and itachi uchiha after all. I still believe that the distance nagato had between himself and the smoke should still have been enough for him to see and react to the blade coming at his lower peripheral vision.

      lol yeah, well its a neccesary tangent so we can scale the speed of the blade.

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    • cant we let itachi win

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    • Itachisempi wrote: cant we let itachi win

      Lol, not on this thread.

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    • awww man

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    • Well we don't have to let him win in this case. none of the three opponents he is facing in this battle can react to his trump card, especially since itachi is at minimum as smart as shikamaru. shikamaru overlays attacks and told tayuya (the first attack is the fake out, the second is the real attack). itachi while jobbing does that. his first attack was a water-style to fake kakashi out, and shuriken to also fake him out, for his shadow clone attack from behind, and then detonated his shadow clone once kakashi got close to it. his first attack against bee was shuriken, the real attack was the genjutsu followed with shrunken. In other cases he was able to comfortably counter his opponent's initial attack then counter attack accordingly.

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    • orochimaru can't counter his genjutsu so I don't see him winning. and his two edos are kinnda screwed if orchimaru is put in genjutsu, so they wont help. I think orochimaru has to take the L

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    • @Itachisempi

      Well don't use the genjutsu argument because then someone will just cite shoten itachi vs naruto kakashi chiyo etc again while ignoring the context of that battle. Show how he overlays attacks , and uses feints when he fights. reference how he subsitutes with clones out of nowhere and gets them behind his opponents like he did to part one kakashi, like how he did to a SAGE MODE kabuto, and then was easily cutting his horns off from behind. cite how nagato and orochimaru can't react to totsuka blade. cite how konan has no way of penetrating susano'o with her bombs without significant prep time. Cite how konan got one shotted by one technique with like 0 speed feats from jiraiya, and she really has no good speed and reflex feats. Itachi overlays attacks when he fights, these 3 stand no chance. If oro wants any chance to beat itachi, he first needs an edo tensei that can react to the totsuka blade and is comparable to itachi in tactics. minato fits this bill, considering based on feats and his chunnin exam scores, itachi and minato are on the same playing field when it comes to intellect, and has the speed and reflexes to give itachi problems. This way, minato can FTG orochimaru around and actually give him a decent chance of setting up his techniques. Add in tobirama as well, who is highly experienced, fast, and smart, and I see orochimaru being able to defeat itachi.

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    • if itachi cant use genjutsu he loses his strongest tool he. his best MS ability is the Tsukuyomi. but even with out genjutsu with itachi might still win

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    • @Itachisempi

      Again, common misconception... Where did people ever get the idea that Itachi's strongest tool is his genjutsu???? His strongest tool has always been his intellect. Itachi is a prodigy in all forms of shinobi combat. The mangaka literally established this from the beginning of the manga. His shuriken techniques took a huge poop over nagato's shared vision. His physical speed could compete with killer bee. He was comparable in speed to sage mode kabuto. While both itachi and kcm naruto were holding back, it's still an impressive taijutsu feat that itachi could spar with kcm naruto while simultaneously dodging an attack from killer bee. his jutsu speed was rediculous against konoha's jounin. He overlays attacks. The dude is literally comparable in intelligence to both minato and shikamaru. Itachi uses fake outs when he fights. Many ninja can't even plan one move ahead, they just use on big technique at a time until one finally works and then they can finish their opponent. Yet we have itachi off the cuff scheming 3 moves in advance, against kakashi, while jobbing..., shuriken as a feint, water style as a feint, and then a shadow clone out of nowwhere stabs kakashi from behind. he then adjusted accodrdingly to kakashi's clone feint. Please tell me how itachi was clone feinting a perfect sage user like how many times, and cutting his horns off? He is also a prodigy in genjutsu, and genjutsu is simply his favourite move. How did people miss the fact that itachi was established to be a pacificst, which is the whole reason why killing his own clan took such a heavy toll on him. It wasn't in his nature, but he is still a shinobi. Kakashi and kisame even say that his tsyukyomi can kill, yet he didn't kill kakashi because that wasn't his goal.

      Ironically, the only person in this thread who seemed to understand how itachi fights is Ninja of War. the dude literally goes to the end fight before it begins. He deduces counter-measures to his opponent's attack. then, whether it's using genjutsu to trick his opponent, or blitzing them with totsuka blade, he goes to end the fight before it begins, which is a perfect mindset because itachi's only real weakness is stamina.

      It's kinda lame how many people disregard this, and then resort to fights where we already know itachi was holding back to draw feats from, or cite shortcomings that were based on itachi's lack of knowledge.

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    • orochemaru cant counter his genjutsu there for in this fight it would be his strongest asset. and if you want to talk strongest jutsu orochemaru doesn't have a lot going for him. add the edo's, ok itachi would have a harder time with that but he could sit in the Susanoo and form a plan. he is extremely smart. if you can give me a fair situation with itachi losing then ok, but I cant think of one right now

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    • A FANDOM user
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