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  • Rachin123
    Rachin123 closed this thread because:
    Too long
    02:57, March 24, 2018

    This is Menma Uzumaki vs alive Itachi. Menma has access to Obito's MS abilities and Itachi has TB and YM. Menma is limited to two minutes of continuous intangibility and regular kamui speed. Itachi's TB and YM are strictly considered to, seal individuals that only the tip pierces and only block attack's in one direction respectively. They are to be considered as physically a sword and shield.

    Fair fights, no plot armor.

    Who would win and why?

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    • Itachi would win her since he has Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror. Again,he would put Menma in Tsukuyomi and it said that only a Sasuke can break out of Tsukuyomi but I think Itachi let Sasuke get out. Itachi is far smarter than Menma.What about Amaterasu? Surely,Menma can’t dodge that either.Lots of ways Itachi could win against Menma.

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    • TB is just a sword and YM just a shield. Menma can break out of Tsukuyomi thanks to the black Kurama. Can sharingan genjutsu be cast on someone who wears a mask like that? Amaterasu can be dealt with the repulsion technique. Don't forget kamui is in play as well.

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    • any particular reason why Menma has Obito's MS?

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    • None in particular, but at one point Memna did posses it.

      P.S. Actually, Menma needed a few more jutsus for a discussion.

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    • Itachi finishes him off with super charged Tsukuyomi?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: TB is just a sword and YM just a shield. Menma can break out of Tsukuyomi thanks to the black Kurama. Can sharingan genjutsu be cast on someone who wears a mask like that? Amaterasu can be dealt with the repulsion technique. Don't forget kamui is in play as well.

      Well,then if your gonna say that,Itachi would still win with Izanami. Izanami can be cast on any shinobi,with eyesight or not. Another way,he can win is with Yasaka Magatama. Itachi takes this.

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    • ^How though? Izanami is literally the last resort Itachi would have. Would it even work on Menma? How would Yasaka Magatama allow Itachi to win?

      Spiraling-ring can overpower any jutsu Itachi can throw.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^How though? Izanami is literally the last resort Itachi would have. Would it even work on Menma? How would Yasaka Magatama allow Itachi to win?

      Spiraling-ring can overpower any jutsu Itachi can throw.

      Your underestimating Itachi too much. Izanami would be the way to Itachi's victory here.By the way,you know when Killer Bee,Naruto and Itachi were going to get locked up in Chibaku Tensei,Itachi said,'Use your strongest long-rage jutsu' Itachi used Yasaka Magatama (which he called it Yasaka Beads) meaning it's his strongest long-range Jutsu. Another way he could win.Healthy Itachi is a major ass threat to anyone.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^How though? Izanami is literally the last resort Itachi would have. Would it even work on Menma? How would Yasaka Magatama allow Itachi to win?

      Spiraling-ring can overpower any jutsu Itachi can throw.

      Wait a minute MEnma is Kurama's jinchuriki?

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    • ^Not sure how to respond to that question.

      @Naruto10647

      I'm asking how. You just reposted what you already stated. Yasaka Magatama may be Itachi's most powerful long range jutsu, but how powerful exactly? Regular spiraling-ring has the same destructive power as a Rasenshuriken. While the great spiraling-ring can destroy Konoha. Really no contest there.

      How do you think the fight will proceed?

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    • It's tough to say. Menma can destroy a village that holds over fourteen thousand people with a single technique. Where as Itachi has a Susano'o equipped with a sword that can cut through almost anything and seal whatever the tip hits, and a shield that protects it from all nature attacks. This includes the Yin and Yang natures, since they are stated to be natures. Even then/ Sasuke was able to disrupt Kurama's connection to Naruto in an instant before he even unlocked Mangekyo. Obito was able to control Kurama. Itachi's a Genjutsu mastermind. I don't see why he can't just point his finger, trap the guy in a Genjutsu to distract him momentarily, conjure his Susano'o, and pierce the guy before he breaks free.

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    • ^Kamui?

      Also, Itachi is not gonna immediately use his Susanoo and all related abilities. Black Kurama is there to help with Genjutsu.

      How do you think the fight will proceed?

      P.S. Surprised you are back, @LoneNinja.

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    • Menma has Kamui? I don't recall that. But that might change things.

      In all likeliness though this would most likely be the scenario.

      Scenario: Itachi and Menma would meet on the battlefield with no knowledge of who they were fighting. They know they must kill each other for whatever reasons. Itachi reveals his red hues to Menma and traps him in his Sharingan: Genjutsu due to him having no reasons not to look. I would like to believe Kurama could help him here, but due to the fact Yagura's Tailed Beast could not help him break free from Genjutsu, and he had complete mastery over it; I don't see how Kurama could help Menma. Especially since Yagura was manipulated by Obito's Sharingan: Genjutsu which controlled him for years and his tailed beast could not do anything to help him. With that in mind, Menma would have to break free on his own. But if Obito was capable of controlling Yagura with it, despite not specializing in Genjutsu; Itachi should have no problems in controlling Menma. If someone can show me a way Menma can break free and explain why Yagura could not do the same, then I'll continue the battle scenario passed this point. Until then, Itachi has the victory.

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    • Itachi isn't Obito and we don't know why Obito's genjutsu was so effective on Yagura. And with the Sharingan and MS, I'm sure Menma can fight off any non-kinjutsu Genjutsu Itachi has. Gyuki broke Bee out of the Genjutsu Sasuke put him in and he is a perfect jinchiriki. Don't just assume Itachi will win based solely on his Genjutsu prowess. Menma was soloing other Jinchiriki like playthings. I'm positive Menma can take Itachi based on what we've seen.

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    • @NinjaofWar
      Actually i was first confused about who this guy was, I thoght that this guy was menma from Ten-Ten's dream.

      Princeharris1993 wrote: Itachi isn't Obito and we don't know why Obito's genjutsu was so effective on Yagura. And with the Sharingan and MS, I'm sure Menma can fight off any non-kinjutsu Genjutsu Itachi has. Gyuki broke Bee out of the Genjutsu Sasuke put him in and he is a perfect jinchiriki. Don't just assume Itachi will win based solely on his Genjutsu prowess. Menma was soloing other Jinchiriki like playthings. I'm positive Menma can take Itachi based on what we've seen.

      The key point here is that jinchuriki has to break the genjutsu, in the fight with Killer Bee neither Bee nor Gyuki realize that they are in Genjutsu. It's only when Itachi gives the clue about being Genjutsu that Gyuki breaks the Genjutsu. Time Dilation is strong Suite of Tsukuyomi so such difference in breaking the Genjutsu could cause the opponent the fight.

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    • actual fight with no extreme hax? menma. with all hax? itachi

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    • LoneNinja
      LoneNinja removed this reply because:
      For some reason it has this scroll bar on one of the messages and it won't go away.
      04:14, February 8, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • @PrinceofHarris

      When exactly did Gyuki break Bee out of Genjutsu? And you're exactly right. Itachi isn't Obito. Itachi is better than Obito in Genjutsu. Obito rarely used Genjutsu except to control people. If his Genjutsu was more powerful than Itachi's, I'm sure he would of used it constantly in the war especially on the enemies. Itachi is one of the best in Genjutsu, Obito isn't really up there. So if you can provide me a reference as to how Bee escaped the Genjutsu and explain why Yagura could not do the same, then I will continue with the scenario that I believe would happen. Also instead of everyone saying "Menma wins" describe a scenario as to how he wins, or else it's just words.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: The key point here is that jinchuriki has to break the genjutsu, in the fight with Killer Bee neither Bee nor Gyuki realize that they are in Genjutsu. It's only when Itachi gives the clue about being Genjutsu that Gyuki breaks the Genjutsu. Time Dilation is strong Suite of Tsukuyomi so such difference in breaking the Genjutsu could cause the opponent the fight.

      If this is also true, then I stand firmly in believing Itachi wins by the scenario I provided since Kurama (A Tailed Beast who has been controlled countless times by the Sharingan) isn't likely to sense being in the Genjutsu and help Menma break free. Also can anyone provide me a reference to Menma using Obito's abilities?

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    • Gyuki broke Bee out of Sasuke's MS genjutsu and broke Bee out of edo Itachi's genjutsu before his shuriken got close. In the Sasuke vs Bee instance, Bee explained how genjutsu is useless to a perfect Jinchuriki.

      Furthermore, Menma has the nine masked beasts. This according to Chiyo's words, multiple allies can overcome sharingan genjutsu, makes effective genjutsu quite unlikely. Plus, Menma has unrestricted access to Black Kurama's power, meaning if his chakra is disturbed by genjutsu, he can easily reset his chakra with Kurama's chakra. In addition, Menma has Obito's MS, which can see through genjutsu and was powerful enough to control Kurama and Yagura.

      Considering all of this, Itachi's genjutsu would be highly ineffective.

      Scenario: Itachi and Menma face off. Itachi throws his kunai at Menma, which Menma using telekinesis stops. Menma unleashes the nine masked beasts. This makes sharingan genjutsu effectively useless. Itachi manages to dodge the beasts' attacks and starts using elemental ninjutsu.

      Menma would then switch to spiraling-ring and hurl it at Itachi, Itachi would obviously dodge, but his ninjutsu would be overpowered. Itachi would prepare Amaterasu at this point, with Menma and the nine masked beasts staring him down.

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    • @Ninja of War

      After re-reading the war arc, I come to the realization that Bee was in fact effected by Itachi's Genjutsu and Gyuki did not break him free. In fact it wasn't until they realized it was Genjutsu when he was replaced by crows and he warned them. Reference = Itachi and Nagato vs Naruto and Bee. Also Itachi usually starts off with Sharingan active and a Genjutsu attack right off the back. Nearly every fight he starts off with Genjutsu, so the scenario you provided doesn't fit his style. So the scenario is:

      Itachi and Menma would meet on the battlefield with no knowledge of who they were fighting. They know they must kill each other for whatever reasons. Itachi reveals his red hues to Menma and traps him in his Sharingan: Genjutsu due to him having no reasons not to look.

      Menma doesn't just go full on Nine-tails off the back to just anyone. So there isn't a reason it'd be his second move, so the multiple enemy thing, isn't a likely scenario. Now I tried finding the chapter where Bee stated Genjutsu is ineffective to him (Which would be a contradiction since Itachi did get him later on during the war), but I cannot find it, can you provide it for me? Also that statement is kind of bull since Yagura was a perfect Jinchuriki but was controlled by Obito's Genjutsu, a lesser Genjutsu user.

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    • So, you are giving Itachi prep? Why?

      Gyuki clearly breaks Bee twice out of Sharingan genjutsu. Reference is, Sasuke vs Bee and Naruto and Bee vs Itachi and Nagato. So don't know what you're talking about.

      Menma knows about the Uchiha and their abilities. Furthermore, he has Obito's MS in this case, he isn't gonna be surprised that Itachi is gonna use his Sharingan. I've used multiple points to show that sharingan genjutsu is, for all intensive purposes useless in this fight. Also, is Menma's eyes even visible due to his mask?

      Menma always uses the nine masked beasts in his fights, so why are you saying he won't use it?

      Obito controlling Yagura seems to be plot, since what was the point of controlling Kirikagure? It's not mentioned how useful it was to his plans.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: So, you are giving Itachi prep? Why?

      Gyuki clearly breaks Bee twice out of Sharingan genjutsu. Reference is, Sasuke vs Bee and Naruto and Bee vs Itachi and Nagato. So don't know what you're talking about.
      Really.
      A Jinchuriki isn't immune to Genjutsu, they can get out of one very easily. Also if you would observe ITachi Vs Bee fight, Neither Gyuki nor Bee know that they are in Genjutsu until Itachi actually tells them. So Menma would probably die in Genjutsu.
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    • A Jinchurki isn’t immune to Genjutsu. If you think about Itachi vs Naruto (I think episode 15 in Shippuden), Itachi raised one finger and Naruto was under Genjutsu. And yet the fact that he had Nine Tails inside him,he still didn’t break it. Also when Itachi landed Tsukuyomi on Kakashi,Kakashi had to stay in the hospital,Correct me if I’m wrong. Itachi takes this. I’ve said this multiple times and yet the one who created this thread doesn’t understand.

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    • ^You're quite mistaken. Itachi vs Naruto, Naruto was not a perfect Jinchuriki at that point. From Sasuke vs Bee, Bee clearly states why genjutsu is not effective when you have a partner to break you out of it. So no, what you said is not happening.

      You are forgetting that Menma also has Obito's MS and has unrestricted access to black Kurama's chakra. Menma not gonna get caught in regular sharingan genjutsu for sure. Menma also has Uzumaki stamina and Kurama's healing ability, he not Kakashi.

      I think the user above doesn't understand lol. Try reading above.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^You're quite mistaken. Itachi vs Naruto, Naruto was not a perfect Jinchuriki at that point. From Sasuke vs Bee, Bee clearly states why genjutsu is not effective when you have a partner to break you out of it. So no, what you said is not happening.

      You are forgetting that Menma also has Obito's MS and has unrestricted access to black Kurama's chakra. Menma not gonna get caught in regular sharingan genjutsu for sure. Menma also has Uzumaki stamina and Kurama's healing ability, he not Kakashi.

      I think the user above doesn't understand lol. Try reading above.

      Finally understand you. So Menma has Obito’s MS abilities,right? Menma gives Itachi a damn hard time and then Itachi activates his Susano’o and raises one finger,traps him in a genjutsu and Itachi cuts him with his sword by the time Menma would’ve got out.

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    • ^Don't think genjutsu on that level will work on Menma, but thanks for the mini-rundown.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Don't think genjutsu on that level will work on Menma, but thanks for the mini-rundown.

      If I remember correctly despite Kurama's cooperation Naruto actually falls for Genjutsu in the movie. In fact Kurama clearly states that it's over if he looks into his eyes.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: If I remember correctly despite Kurama's cooperation Naruto actually falls for Genjutsu in the movie. In fact Kurama clearly states that it's over if he looks into his eyes.

      Not only is that non-canon (which, now that I think about it, doesn't really matter much in this particular thread), Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that time

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: If I remember correctly despite Kurama's cooperation Naruto actually falls for Genjutsu in the movie. In fact Kurama clearly states that it's over if he looks into his eyes.

      Not only is that non-canon (which, now that I think about it, doesn't really matter much in this particular thread), Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that time

      Cannon , Non Canon Seriously? We are talking about non canon character and now you are bringing that up?
      Kurama willingly gives complete cooperation in the movie for just that once.
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    • @Ninja of War

      "I've used multiple points to show that sharingan genjutsu is, for all intensive purposes useless in this fight." Incorrect. You used the fight Nagato and Itachi vs Naruto and Bee. This doesn't work merely for the fact that Bee and Gyuki did not realize they were in Genjutsu until Itachi warned them and they seen the crows. This actually counters your statement. Yes Gyuki can free Bee from Genjutsu, but it does not detect when it's in it unless it's plainly obvious.

      "So, you are giving Itachi prep? Why?" What did I give Itachi before the fight? Nothing. I merely stated he starts off with his Sharingan merely due to the fact there hasn't been a single fight he doesn't start off with it since joining the Akatsuki.

      "Menma always uses the nine masked beasts in his fights, so why are you saying he won't use it?" Incorrect. I never stated he wouldn't use it at all, I just stated based off all his fights, it wouldn't be his second move.

      "Menma also has Obito's MS" Can you provide a source to Menma using Obito's Ms? Or did you give him it to give him a fighting chance?

      With that being said. My scenario basically proves Itachi wins with a glance with no plot armor to save Menma. It's highly likely Itachi can control Menma with the Genjutsu just as Obito did with Yagura.

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    • ^I'm afraid you are incorrect. After re-reading the manga, in the instance of Itachi vs Bee. After Bee 'caught' Itachi with his tentacle, and Itachi dispersed into crows, Bee said, that Itachi was an illusion. After that, Itachi said, Bee shouldn't look into his eyes directly. And then Gyuki broke him out of the genjutsu, so no, my point stands firm.

      I meant that Itachi can't start the fight with his sharingan already active. But, either way, Menma won't be affected by normal sharingan genjutsu. Re-watch road to a Ninja for the reference to Obito's MS. And I already explained why I gave Menma Obito's MS.

      How can Itachi control Menma, when Obito's MS can see through genjutsu and Kurama can break him out of it? Also, don't give feats of Obito to Itachi.

      You haven't proven Itachi wins, just that you think he does, despite my points.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Cannon , Non Canon Seriously? We are talking about non canon character and now you are bringing that up?
      Kurama willingly gives complete cooperation in the movie for just that once.

      How did you miss the part where I said, "which, now that I think about it, doesn't really matter much in this particular thread". Reading comprehension, use it.

      Also, Naruto still wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that time, otherwise he would have had Kurama Mode and Tailed Beast Mode. Even if you can consider Naruto a temporary perfect jinchuriki, the "Tailed Beast breaking out their jinchuriki from genjutsu" thing happened before the events of the movie, therefore Kurama's statement is null and void.

      You have two options:
      A.) Accept that Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that moment in the movie
      or
      B.) Disregard Kurama's statement because it's non-canon and contradicts the manga

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    • tsukuyomi is not normal genjutsu so black kurama is helpless.

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    • "Itachi dispersed into crows, Bee said, that Itachi was an illusion. After that, Itachi said, Bee shouldn't look into his eyes directly. And then Gyuki broke him out of the genjutsu" Did I not say that? "In fact it wasn't until they realized it was Genjutsu when he was replaced by crows and he warned them." /AND/ "Bee and Gyuki did not realize they were in Genjutsu until Itachi warned them and they seen the crows." I did. So how am I incorrect? I clearly stated they didn't know it was Genjutsu until they seen the crows. In fact, Bee was trapped in the Genjutsu before he even grabbed Itachi with the tentacle due to him looking into his eyes which Itachi then states not to do for future references after they seen the crows.

      "so no, my point stands firm." Actually it doesn't since they didn't break out until they noticed they were in Genjutsu. They needed to see Itachi's crows before realizing they were in Genjutsu. Gyuki did nothing until after Itachi said something, thus he didn't even know. My argument is the one that stands firm.

      "Re-watch road to a Ninja for the reference to Obito's MS. And I already explained why I gave Menma Obito's MS." Uhh. No. I don't want to watch a movie to find out lol. I just read the site's run down of what happened. After reading it, I've learned that it was Obito in Menma's body, not Menma possessing it. After Obito leaves, he no longer has it. So the thread should be Obito in Menma's body vs Itachi. But that doesn't really matter.

      "Also, don't give feats of Obito to Itachi." Which feat did I give Itachi that Obito did? Controlling people via Genjutsu? Itachi was stated to be able to control people via Genjutsu, 4th war, reveal of white Zetsu transforming into people, chapter 540. Also Itachi > Obito in Genjutsu. Itachi also possesses the Genjutsu Obito used. So... if Itachi has the jutsu, has the ability, has the skill, then he can do it?

      "How can Itachi control Menma, when Obito's MS can see through genjutsu and Kurama can break him out of it?" Now that I know he has Obito's Mangekyo for sure, you make a good point. But just cause he has Sharingan, doesn't mean he can detect when he's in Genjutsu. I mean, the whole "See through Genjutsu" thing was abandon a long time ago. It was even remove from this wiki. The reason being, those with Sharingan, being caught in Genjutsu without knowing such as Sasuke and Kakashi. Since this is Menma, he won't have mastered the eye which makes him as good with Sharingan as a Genin Sasuke, unless you can prove Menma can wield the Sharingan more proficiently than Genin Sasuke, which you can't cause Menma has never used it, Obito in his body did. But I'll bite.

      Scenario continues: Menma is trapped in the Genjutsu. Somehow he discerns he is in one. Kurama free's him, but by the time he comes to, Itachi who had already detected Kurama's presence such as Sasuke did with the Sharingan when he first saw Kurama, is already there trying to stab his neck.

      Even if he can discern he is in Genjutsu, he doesn't break it instantly. That's all the time Itachi needs since they were within visual range of each other. And we seen how fast Itachi is when he wants to be, granted that was sick Itachi so this Itachi isn't limited physically. So the question now is, can you prove Menma can detect and break the Genjutsu before Itachi moves a few feet to stab his throat?

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    • ^Bee already knew it was genjutsu when Itachi dispersed into crows. Hence the words, "An illusion". Itachi said that Bee shouldn't look directly into his eyes, for further combat. Gyuki broke him out. Itachi's help wasn't needed. So yeah, my point does stand firm.

      What genjutsu did Obito use to control Yagura? And how does Itachi know this genjutsu?

      Sharingan can see through genjutsu, it's one of it's base abilities. MS more so. It's unlikely anyone with an MS is gonna be caught by regular sharingan genjutsu.

      Scenario continues: Itachi faces off against Menma and the nine masked beasts. Itachi tries to one-shot Menma with Amaterasu, which then gets blocked by the repulsion technique. Itachi realizes this and tries to stream Amaterasu to the beasts. He manages to burn three of the beasts but the others attack him. While dodging, Itachi sees another spiraling-ring launched at him.

      He dodges but his cloak is gone and is suffering backlash from Amaterasu.

      So the question now is, what is Itachi's next move?

      P.S. I have answered your question in the text above, however I see you are ignoring the fact that Menma has unrestricted access to black Kurama's chakra, why is that?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Bee already knew it was genjutsu when Itachi dispersed into crows. Hence the words, "An illusion". Itachi said that Bee shouldn't look directly into his eyes, for further combat. Gyuki broke him out. Itachi's help wasn't needed. So yeah, my point does stand firm.

      What genjutsu did Obito use to control Yagura? And how does Itachi know this genjutsu?

      Sharingan can see through genjutsu, it's one of it's base abilities. MS more so. It's unlikely anyone with an MS is gonna be caught by regular sharingan genjutsu.

      Scenario continues: Itachi faces off against Menma and the nine masked beasts. Itachi tries to one-shot Menma with Amaterasu, which then gets blocked by the repulsion technique. Itachi realizes this and tries to stream Amaterasu to the beasts. He manages to burn three of the beasts but the others attack him. While dodging, Itachi sees another spiraling-ring launched at him.

      He dodges but his cloak is gone and is suffering backlash from Amaterasu.

      So the question now is, what is Itachi's next move?

      P.S. I have answered your question in the text above, however I see you are ignoring the fact that Menma has unrestricted access to black Kurama's chakra, why is that?

      I dont think Obito controlled Yagura under Genjutsu. Kabuto probably controlled Yagura with Edo Tensei.

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    • @Ninja of War

      "Itachi said that Bee shouldn't look directly into his eyes, for further combat. Gyuki broke him out. Itachi's help wasn't needed. So yeah, my point does stand firm." How does this prove Bee and Gyuki together know when they are in Genjutsu? Itachi and Bee make eye contact and Bee got caught in Genjutsu. Bee gets behind Itachi and uses tentacle to catch him. Itachi then disperses into crows revealing Bee is in a Genjutsu. Bee states "Illusion". Itachi warns Bee. Gyuki nags Bee. Gyuki frees Bee. This basically says from the moment eye contact was made to when Bee states "Illusion" Bee and Gyuki had no idea they were in a Genjutsu. So how does that prove they can detect Genjutsu? Just so you know, my argument was never about Bee and Gyuki not being able to break out of Genjutsu, I actually agreed up above that they could. My argument is they won't know they're in one.

      "Sharingan can see through genjutsu, it's one of it's base abilities. MS more so. It's unlikely anyone with an MS is gonna be caught by regular sharingan genjutsu." Uhh no it doesn't. Sure at one point in the story that was said, but not anymore. That was changed even in the Databook, it's now to discern Chakra. The reason being too many Genjutsu have worked on Sharingan users without them knowing. They can, with enough skill discern when they're in Genjutsu, sure. But Menma? No LOL. Not someone who has never used it before. Especially against Itachi's who has fooled many Sharingan users. But even if he did have the skill to detect when he is in Genjutsu, scroll down to my scenario.

      "What genjutsu did Obito use to control Yagura? And how does Itachi know this genjutsu?" Maybe the only Genjutsu Obito is listed in having (Minus Izanagi and Infinite Tsukyomi for obvious reasons)? Sharingan: Genjutsu. Itachi is listed a user, so ask the Databook, Manga, and Kishimoto.

      "Scenario continues: Itachi faces off against Menma and the nine masked beasts." Why does Menma have them out? Did you give him prep time now? You must really want him to win, lol. You also neglected to answer my scenario and completely ignored it, thus meaning Menma gets stabbed in the neck and dies, until you give a counter as to how Menma detects Genjutsu, breaks it, detects Itachi, and reacts before Itachi who was a few feet away from him, stabs him in the throat. Itachi is shown to be insanely fast so do not underestimate his speed. He was shown to be able to move faster than most Jonin could follow.

      "P.S. I have answered your question in the text above, however I see you are ignoring the fact that Menma has unrestricted access to black Kurama's chakra, why is that?" You didn't answer all my questions. Also, I didn't disagree with it so I didn't address it, never stated Menma couldn't use Kurama's Chakra. Still doesn't matter. Menma still has to discern, break, and react. Sharingan doesn't break you out of Genjutsu. Only can discern it.

      P.s. You still have yet to prove Menma has the knowledge on how to use a Mangekyo Sharingan. It took Kakashi a decade before he was able to use his Mangekyo despite having it unlocked already. You also have yet to prove Menma can utilize it more sufficient than a Genin Sasuke Uchiha.

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    • LoneNinja wrote:

      Itachi also possesses the Genjutsu Obito used. So... if Itachi has the jutsu, has the ability, has the skill, then he can do it?

      Even if he can discern he is in Genjutsu, he doesn't break it instantly. That's all the time Itachi needs since they were within visual range of each other. And we seen how fast Itachi is when he wants to be, granted that was sick Itachi so this Itachi isn't limited physically. So the question now is, can you prove Menma can detect and break the Genjutsu before Itachi moves a few feet to stab his throat?

      My argument is that anything lower than MS-level genjutsu is unlikely to work on Menma. And you said Itachi had to tell Bee that he was in a genjutsu, which didn't happen. That's why I had to explain it to you.

      What is your basis for, "Sharingan seeing through genjutsu" not working? When has Itachi fooled Sharingan users with regular genjutsu? On the genjutsu Obito used on Yagura, you said Itachi can use it. So what is the name of that genjutsu and how did Itachi learn it? You stated it, so you please answer. You have to back up your points.

      Don't act like you can't read, the scenario continues from my previous one above. I showed you why sharingan genjutsu would be useless, so I kinda ruined your rundown. Since all it had was, "Itachi uses sharingan genjutsu."

      P.S. Menma has instant access to Kurama's chakra, so if he is caught in a genjutsu, he can instantly break out. Also, he has exceptional chakra control, due to the fact of him being able to craft the nine masked beasts(living entities) out of Kurama's chakra.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: So, you are giving Itachi prep? Why?

      Gyuki clearly breaks Bee twice out of Sharingan genjutsu. Reference is, Sasuke vs Bee and Naruto and Bee vs Itachi and Nagato. So don't know what you're talking about.

      Menma knows about the Uchiha and their abilities. Furthermore, he has Obito's MS in this case, he isn't gonna be surprised that Itachi is gonna use his Sharingan. I've used multiple points to show that sharingan genjutsu is, for all intensive purposes useless in this fight. Also, is Menma's eyes even visible due to his mask?

      Menma always uses the nine masked beasts in his fights, so why are you saying he won't use it?

      Obito controlling Yagura seems to be plot, since what was the point of controlling Kirikagure? It's not mentioned how useful it was to his plans.

      Obito has mangekyo Sharingan

      mangekyo Sharingan has the power to control a bijuu

      Obito as a revenge on mist cast a genjutsu on yagura for killing rin

      Usually a genjutsu cast on a jinchuriki is negated by bijuu sealed within him/her

      But obito cast a genjutsu on sanbi and then yagura hence he was able to maintain his genjutsu. Or He used the sharingan:genjutsu jutsu.

      This is a jutsu granted to all users of the sharingan, its one of the most versatile genjutsu and could be used in many ways. Obito was skilled enough to control kurama with his mangekyo sharingan, he was probably skilled enough to use a genjutsu that could last for a really long time. Either one of those. We never know. Also,both Gyuki and Bee didnt know they were in a genjutsu till Itachi dispersed his crows and warned both. That is when Gyuki broke Bee out of Genjutsu. You really want Menma to win,lol. Also,Izanami is hax like Kotoamtsukami. It can be cast on anyone,with eyesight or not,or with Tailed Beast or not. In other cases,it is an infinite loop. You simply cannot escape it unless you accept yourself. I am saying this because a Jinchuuriki has never escaped Izanami before and it has only been used on Kabuto.

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    • ^That paragraph can be summed up by saying, you don't know what genjutsu Obito used and you deny what happened in the instance of Itachi vs Bee. Gotcha.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^That paragraph can be summed up by saying, you don't know what genjutsu Obito used and you deny what happened in the instance of Itachi vs Bee. Gotcha.

      Your ignoring my statement completely. Again I say,Itachi warned them that it was a genjutsu. Gyuki broke Bee out of the genjutsu.

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    • Nice edit though, so what was your point again?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Nice edit though, so what was your point again?

      It is so clear that you are avoiding my Izanami statement. I want you to show me how he would counter Izanami.

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    • @Ninja Of War

      "My argument is that anything lower than MS-level genjutsu is unlikely to work on Menma." But you aren't 100% sure that's the case, so I can't believe your statement if you, yourself have doubt.

      "When has Itachi fooled Sharingan users with regular genjutsu?" There are a few instances. Sasuke vs Itachi is a good one. Though they do eventually recognize it's Genjutsu, they were still temporarily caught in it.

      "On the genjutsu Obito used on Yagura, you said Itachi can use it. So what is the name of that genjutsu and how did Itachi learn it? You stated it, so you please answer. You have to back up your points." I did state it, what? Genjutsu: Sharingan. It's the only Genjutsu out of three that Obito has that controls people. It should also be noted in Chapter 501, Obito was able to use this Genjutsu to control the Tailed beast inside a Jinchuriki after the Jinchuriki looked into his eyes. It's one of the most basic Sharingan techniques, even Kakashi had it.

      "Don't act like you can't read, the scenario continues from my previous one above." Actually I posted my scenario first so I don't have to address yours. Especially since you start Itachi off with a Shuriken attack when 95% of his fights, he starts off with Genjutsu.

      "so I kinda ruined your rundown" You didn't. You just state, Menma breaks out instantly cause he has Obito's Mangekyo and has Kurama reserves, lol. No one has been shown ever to break out instantly from Genjutsu they get caught in. That's just a made up ability you are giving him.

      "if he is caught in a genjutsu" He would be. There'd be no reason for him not to look in Itachi's eyes, unless you are giving them absolute knowledge on each other. I never denied he could break out either. I just merely stated by the time he did, Itachi would already cut his throat due to his speed and the distance between them.

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    • @Naruto10647

      You clearly avoided my statement, but I'll indulge you.

      Izanami requires a lot of prep. According to this wiki, Izanami is cast through physical sensations shared between the user and the target. Now, for Itachi to cast it, he'll have to set up some scenario and then somehow make physical contact with Menma. There are a few problems to this:

      1) Menma obviously has the nine masked beasts, and they are not gonna stand idle while Itachi is busy with some jutsu. They won't let up, and Itachi is gonna have his hands full. Furthermore, Menma is probably gonna be throwing rasen-rings all day. Itachi doesn't have time to prep in that case.

      2) In some far fetch scenario, Itachi manages to prep and goes in to make physical contact. Menma has Obito's MS and the ability to phase through anything. Itachi won't be able to make physical contact with Menma in that case.

      3) Menma can use the repulsion technique to repel Itachi if he gets close. From anywhere on his person.

      4) Izanami is a glorified Uchiha talk no jutsu. It's designed to make the target accept who they are. Not for combat. Also, would it even work on Menma, does he accept who he is? This fight is also a death battle, Itachi's motives are not to 'save' Menma. He doesn't know anything about Menma why would he want to save him? Does he know it would work?

      So, what was your point again?

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    • TSUKUYOMI is enough for itachi to win.

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    • @Ninja of War

      It’s clear that you are a Menma fanboy. I already said that Itachi would activate his Susano’o and then trap him in a genjutsu and by the time he is out,Itachi would’ve killed him. This would happen because of the distance and Itachi’s speed.

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    • ^I'm a fanboy for dismantling your point? Good one lol.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^I'm a fanboy for dismantling your point? Good one lol.

      No,your a fanboy because your literally wanting Menma to win and denying all our solid statement and proof.

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    • ^Except you are the one denying my post about Izanami. And acting out lol.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Except you are the one denying my post about Izanami. And acting out lol.

      I answered all your questions about Izanami.

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    • ^Um no...

      Let me tell you why you lost this argument. You could have argued against my points or scenario. Instead you chose to ask me why Izanami won't work, which I answered in full. This answer apparently upset you so much, you decided to call me a fanboy.

      You literally could not construct any reasonable answer, so you resorted to name calling. You lost all credibility on this thread.

      P.S. You didn't answer anything on Izanami.

      @LoneNinja

      It's obvious we don't agree on the genjutsu point. I just can't understand why you think regular genjutsu will have any effect on these two. But not gonna argue further, since it is pointless.

      Sasuke vs Itachi wasn't an example of fooling someone with regular genjutsu. Both Itachi and Sasuke were standing still and only using genjutsu on each other. No-one was fooled in combat. Black zetsu even commented that they were just feeling each other out with genjutsu.

      So where is the proof that indeed that is the technique Obito uses on Yagura? Show me in the manga where it is stated. Once again, your scenario is quite thin. All it has is Itachi uses genjutsu. Nothing else. So it isn't a scenario.

      Ignoring everything in my points might seem fun, but when looking at all these things, it does paint a very different picture.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Um no...

      Let me tell you why you lost this argument. You could have argued against my points or scenario. Instead you chose to ask me why Izanami won't work, which I answered in full. This answer apparently upset you so much, you decided to call me a fanboy.

      You literally could not construct any reasonable answer, so you resorted to name calling. You lost all credibility on this thread.

      P.S. You didn't answer anything on Izanami.

      @LoneNinja

      It's obvious we don't agree on the genjutsu point. I just can't understand why you think regular genjutsu will have any effect on these two. But not gonna argue further, since it is pointless.

      Sasuke vs Itachi wasn't an example of fooling someone with regular genjutsu. Both Itachi and Sasuke were standing still and only using genjutsu on each other. No-one was fooled in combat. Black zetsu even commented that they were just feeling each other out with genjutsu.

      So where is the proof that indeed that is the technique Obito uses on Yagura? Show me in the manga where it is stated. Once again, your scenario is quite thin. All it has is Itachi uses genjutsu. Nothing else. So it isn't a scenario.

      Ignoring everything in my points might seem fun, but when looking at all these things, it does paint a very different picture.

      So you are ignoring our points? And the statement didn't upset me at all. You are literally underestimating Itachi's speed.

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    • Naruto10647 wrote: And the statement didn't upset me at all. You are literally underestimating Itachi's speed.

      Your actions say otherwise. I think you have to explain your points. To show that you are not biased.

      I see you sweeping my statement under the rug, why is that?

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    • Well Itachi is in fact very fast, remember that Kakashi couldn't keep up with his handseals and he has Sharingan.

      If you want speed feats, go to the fight Itachi & Nagato vs Killer Bee & Naruto.

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    • Vinuth123 wrote: TSUKUYOMI is enough for itachi to win.

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    • ^Except Kakashi did keep up. He saw the water technique incoming.

      No speed feat in the instance of Itachi and Naruto. Check chapter 548.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: How did you miss the part where I said, "which, now that I think about it, doesn't really matter much in this particular thread". Reading comprehension, use it.

      You dismissed a feat which I mentioned in the previous reply. That's why I even said about Cannon-Non Cannon stuff. It could be good for you to keep track of what others are talking about before blaming others for comprehension problems.

      UltimaDude wrote: Also, Naruto still wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that time, otherwise he would have had Kurama Mode and Tailed Beast Mode. Even if you can consider Naruto a temporary perfect jinchuriki, the "Tailed Beast breaking out their jinchuriki from genjutsu" thing happened before the events of the movie, therefore Kurama's statement is null and void.

      You have two options:
      A.) Accept that Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchuriki at that moment in the movie
      or
      B.) Disregard Kurama's statement because it's non-canon and contradicts the manga

      Granted Naruto wasn't Perfect Jinchuriki. however from Kurama's words you would come to realize that he was giving complete cooperation. He even gave that vital intel. If you really want to void well documented statement backed by previous victims(*cough* Kushina) by all means.
      And those two aren't my only options,
      I could easily go about saying that Perfect Jinchuriki isn't immune to certain genjutsu. Which I Know for a fact is true. And that in this case that Menma guy can be controlled with Genjutsu.(Even Obito controls him with genjutsu after Naruto defeats this guy, So that's the Second evidence against your statements.)
      @Ninja OF War
      When Obito actually controls this Menma guy, Menma is incapable of using his own techniques. He couldn't even unleas Kurama, so I think so this might be more like Obito Vs Itachi?
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    • @Ninja of War

      Cause Genjutsu still has effect on Sharingan users. They don't automatically break out.

      Cases: Itachi vs Kakashi, Kakashi's clone got trapped in Genjutsu despite having Sharingan. Sasuke vs Itachi, even if they were testing each other out, they were still trapped in Genjutsu. Sasuke vs Danzo, Danzo was trapped in Genjutsu. Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto, both Uchihas were trapped by Tatuyas Flute Genjutsu. And many more. Just cause you have the Sharingan, doesn't mean you are immune to Genjutsu dude.

      "So where is the proof that indeed that is the technique Obito uses on Yagura?" The proof is in the Databook. He only has three Genjutsu's. Infinite Tsukyomi (Needs ten tails). Izanagi (doesn't control people and Obito didn't lose his vision). And Sharingan: Genjutsu, the only Genjutsu he has, stated to control people. Therefore it's Sharingan: Genjutsu. Even if it wasn't, he still used it to control the Kyubi and is able to look a Jinchuriki in the eyes and control the tailed beast inside them. So if Itachi wanted, he can make Kyubi turn on Menma, since he has the skill and jutsu to do so.

      My scenario yet again: Itachi and Menma would meet on the battlefield with no knowledge of who they were fighting. They know they must kill each other for whatever reasons. Itachi reveals his red hues to Menma and traps him and Kurama in his Sharingan: Genjutsu due to him having no reasons not to look. |If Scenario| Menma somehow recognizes he is in Genjutsu, but no longer has access to Kurama's abilities due to Itachi controlling Kurama. So he cannot break free. |Another If Scenario| Menma somehow manages to break free, but by the time he comes to, Itachi already cuts his throat.

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    • ^Kakashi's clone in that instance wasn't affected. It grabbed onto Itachi and Itachi himself commented that his genjutsu was not working. For Itachi vs Sasuke, neither one of them were fooled, so it's not what you said. Danzo was trapped in combat, but Shisui's eye was on cooldown. So it doesn't count.

      In any case, the genjutsu user is also preoccupied with the genjutsu. It's not as cut and dry as you think. I asked for proof and you didn't deliver, so you can't say. Furthermore, it is not acceptable to give Itachi this genjutsu, since there is no basis.

      So you're still clinging to that scenario hey? Not surprised. But, what about Menma's chakra control abilities and Itachi's preoccupation? Not well thought out. Itachi isn't cutting his throat.

      Reminder: Menma has instant access to Black Kurama's chakra. Menma would likely use a well placed repulsion technique on Itachi. Might even cause Itachi's own kunai to slit his own throat.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Kakashi was indeed affected what? Did you not see the clone in the Genjutsu realm as thin as paper and burned alive? If not, then I suggest you re-read or re-watch it. Unless you're making things up, which isn't the first time in your post. Literally your post is made up of taking jutsu Itachi has (In Manga and Databook), away saying he doesn't have them, and placing limitations not stated to be there, lol. Itachi did not say it didn't work, he said it did not work on Kakashi cause it was a clone affected by the Genjutsu. As for Itachi vs Sasuke, they were fooled. Sasuke was fooled enough to stab a chair, so your point there is mute. Even if Danzo's Mangekyo was on cool down, his basic Sharingan wasn't. His Sharingan didn't just disappear from his eye socket, lol. Whenever Kakashi's Mangekyo went on cool down, his eyes reverted back to basic three tomoe. Danzo's Sharingan didn't just magically disappear, so your point there is also mute.

      "In any case, the genjutsu user is also preoccupied with the genjutsu." Where does it state when using Genjutsu: Sharingan, the user is preoccupied? Cause that's the Genjutsu we're talking about. Sasuke was moving pretty fine when he used it on Danzo to think he had an extra Izanagi. In Chapter 15, Kakashi also seemed to move just fine. So another mute point.

      "I asked for proof and you didn't deliver" I did deliver. You just don't want to accept it. If you state it wasn't Genjutsu: Sharingan (The name of the actual Genjutsu), then what was it? If you say it's a different jutsu, then you are giving a jutsu to Obito that he isn't stated to have.

      "Furthermore, it is not acceptable to give Itachi this genjutsu, since there is no basis." Uhh. Itachi sure the hell does have Genjutsu: Sharingan, that was a poor attempt at trying to prove me wrong. He is listed in the Databook in having it. It is also listed that you can control a Tailed Beast, people, and even a tailed beast inside a person, through eye contact. So good game.

      "So you're still clinging to that scenario hey? Not surprised. But, what about Menma's chakra control abilities and Itachi's preoccupation? Not well thought out. Itachi isn't cutting his throat." Sure I am, since you haven't countered anything and keep taking things away from Itachi that he is stated to have, and giving Menma things he doesn't, so Menma could win. At what point does it stop being a debate, and become more about a fan arguing over a character he likes despite being wrong. You're starting to reach there bud, I suggest you stop taking things away from Itachi such as Genjutsu: Sharingan and putting limitations it isn't stated to have on it. And FYI, he is cutting his throat, since Kakashi was able to move in Chapter 15, Itachi can move as well. :]

      Reminder: The moment Itachi and Menma made eye contact, Menma lost access to Kurama's reserves. Menma won't be repulsing anything while inside Genjutsu: Sharingan. His throat will be slit by Itachi.

      Note: If your next reply is placing more limits on a technique not shown or stated to have such limits, or disregarding a technique's abilities stated to have, I won't be replying. You already gave Menma an ability he didn't have since it was Obito in his body, controlling him. At a certain point, it becomes a fan trying arguing over a character he likes despite that character not being able to win. And I don't like to argue, I like challenging debates.

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    • ^LOL

      Kakashi's clone grabbed Itachi. Itachi commentated that his genjutsu wasn't taking effect. I think you need to re-watch lol(ch 260). Don't deny just because you want to. Sasuke and Itachi were both standing still, they were not in combat. If you say they were fooled, then why didn't Sasuke try and stab Itachi in the throat? Danzo's sharingan eye was covered, it was clear that it was not active. Points standing.

      Chiyo's words, multiple allies can overcome sharingan genjutsu when the user is preoccupied with the genjutsu. You didn't deliver proof on Obito's technique. You couldn't provide me a reference where it states what technique Obito used on Yagura. So wanting to give that ability to Itachi goes out the window, when you don't know what it is just ridiculous.

      How does Obito's abilities relate to Itachi? Where is the precedent of Itachi controlling a tailed beast? Please, you are grasping straws there.

      Anyways, back in the actual scenario. Having dealt with a few of Menma's masked beasts, Itachi switches tactics, trying to level the playing field. He uses crow clones and fire release to blindside a few beasts. Menma sees this and counters by working together with the remaining beasts. Menma manages to defeat the crow clone, but by now only has three masked beasts remaining.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Instead of watching the anime I suggest you read the Manga. Chapter 260. He never states it doesn't affect the clone. Stop grasping at straws. 1st, Kakashi's clone seen he was paper then was burned to ash (if it didn't trap it, what was this then? LOL was Kakashi's clone day dreaming?). Itachi: "Indeed, you are a skilled Jutsu user. Cause you concealed yourself with that Doton (Earth Release), I didn't see you until it was too late. No wonder... I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu. This was a Kage Bunshin (Shadow Clone)." LOL Where does he state the Shadow Clone wasn't affected? Look at you making more stuff up.

      "If you say they were fooled, then why didn't Sasuke try and stab Itachi in the throat?" Why waste the energy and stab him at all? Answer, he was fooled momentarily.

      "Danzo's sharingan eye was covered, it was clear that it was not active." I'll actually give you that one. Cause you're right on that. Now you're starting to use actual facts. Maybe this debate isn't a lost cause after all.

      "Chiyo's words, multiple allies can overcome sharingan genjutsu when the user is preoccupied with the genjutsu." Your point, in my scenario, Menma is alone.

      "You didn't deliver proof on Obito's technique. You couldn't provide me a reference where it states what technique Obito used on Yagura." I did. Please provide a reference to another Genjutsu Obito has that controls people, other than Genjutsu: Sharingan. If you can't, then that's the jutsu he used. Why? Same reason the wiki has the Kekkei Genkai Manget Release listed as wind and earth. Cause those were the only elements the user had that weren't occupied for another canon nature Kekkei Genkai. If that bothers you, then I suggest using another site. Since this is the wiki, I'm going by this wiki's rules.

      "How does Obito's abilities relate to Itachi? Where is the precedent of Itachi controlling a tailed beast? Please, you are grasping straws there." It's the jutsu that allows the user to control people, tailed beasts, and do various other things. Even if Genjutsu: Sharingan isn't the technique Obito used on Yagura (It is, until proven otherwise just as Magnet Release is the combination of Wind and Earth), it still stated to do all that, and even stated to be able to control a tailed beast inside it's Jinchuriki. Thus, my scenario still works and thus Menma dies, until you can prove Menma and Kurama can both break free from Sharingan: Genjutsu.

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    • @LoneNinja

      This is quite interesting. After a long time I found something new in Naruto.

      While I do admit, Itachi's statement on the clone is anime from what I remember, "No wonder... I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu." can also refer to the clone. Even though I said I'm not gonna argue on genjutsu anymore, evidence trumps everything.

      Ch 260, the clone attacks from the underground and Itachi intercepts the attack. He then proceeds to cast a sharingan genjutsu. A genjutsu sequence plays out. What are the facts? Itachi casts a genjutsu, it appears the clone is caught. In the real world, the clone grabs Itachi, the clone has no visible signs of fatigue, stunning, immobilization, hypnosis or any of that.

      Which means there are three options:

      1) The genjutsu was cast, the clone was affected by it, but instantly broke out, while suffering no ill effects. And grabbed Itachi before he realized.

      2) The genjutsu was cast, the clone experienced the genjutsu, but was not affected by it( similar to Itachi vs Kurenai), was able to push through it's effects and continued to grab Itachi.

      3) The genjutsu was cast, the clone caught Itachi in a genjutsu that showed him what he wanted to see. The clone then proceeded with the plan to grab Itachi.

      Either way you look at it, the clone was still able to proceed and grab Itachi. I think I have just shown that sharingan genjutsu is not as unbeatable as you think. (A clone can push through it lol.)

      Also, If Itachi was momentarily fooled, Sasuke could have stabbed him. Is he not fast? I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove your statements. Which you haven't in this case. You are making up things.

      Look, can we stop with this. Your scenario, is quite lame.

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    • No he was talking to Kakashi. Because the clone did not use Doton. Kakashi did.

      "Indeed, you are a skilled Jutsu user. Cause you concealed yourself with that Doton (Earth Release), I didn't see you until it was too late. No wonder... I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu. This was a Kage Bunshin (Shadow Clone)." /This/ Refers to Shadow Clone. /You/ Refers to Kakashi.

      If he was referring to the Shadow Clone, he would've said "I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu. /You're/ a Kage Bunshin (Shadow Clone)."

      I never claimed the Sharingan: Genjutsu was unstoppable. And it wasn't instant. The Genjutsu was shown. He was trapped in it for a bit to the point that he was nearly burned completely to ash, and Itachi was even talking. That isn't instantaneous. I also never said there was no doubt Menma couldn't break the Genjutsu. All I've been asking you is how does he? You stated, with Kurama's Chakra, which I countered with Genjutsu: Sharingan can control Kurama and prevent Menma from using his reserves. So that means you have to tell me how Menma breaks the Genjutsu without Kurama's reserves.

      Then you have to explain why Itachi is holding still, since in Chapter 15, Kakashi wasn't. Why Itachi wouldn't cut Menma's throat while Menma is trapped in Genjutsu, before he breaks it.

      I don't care if the scenario is lame. Change the fight description to them having prep time if you want them going all out, and having Itachi have his Susanoo out and Menma with his masked beasts.

      My scenario is the most likely to happen since Itachi does this all the time. His first move is almost always a Genjutsu. Besides, you asked for my scenario first. I gave it. It's only right to disprove my scenario and debate it before moving on to yours which was posted after mine.

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    • Itachi easy win. He could use his Tsukiyomi and finish Menma off. Itachi just has more experience and more skill than Menma. Sure Menma is one of the most powerful members of the namikaze clan but compared to Itachi...no its just not a fair fight. Itachi has some of the most powerful genjutsu in the series and has a full susanoo. This fight could last some time and Menma could almost beat Itachi... but in the end Itachis power is just simply greater than Menma's. Good matchup but this one goes to Itachi.

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    • @LoneNinja

      The clone used earth release. It tunneled underground to attack Itachi. Itachi made that comment though, you can't deny it. Look, I've just showed that a clone pushed through Itachi's sharingan genjutsu. It's safe to say Menma can do better. So Menma's throat is not getting slit. Also, please stop giving abilities to Itachi that he doesn't have, it's getting real old.

      In any case, Itachi doesn't know anything about Menma. How does he suddenly know he must control Kurama? I see you giving Itachi prep again. So your scenario is once again ruled out. If you have a problem with this, you have to disprove the clone feat. Until then, Menma can handle sharingan genjutsu.

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    • When Kurenai put Itachi under genjutsu,didn't Itachi use reverse genjutsu and put Kurenai in genjutsu instead?

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    • I think this battle will go in Menma's favor for a variety of reasons. For one, we've seen Obito keep a Perfect Jinchuriki in Genjutsu, something Itachi has never done. People keep saying Itachi will trap Menma in Genjutsu then finish him off, but being that Obito (and by extension Menma because he is being possessed by Obito and having his Sharingan) was able to keep a PJ in Genjutsu for a long time, I dont see how Itachi can counter that, even with his Genjutsu prowess. For all we know he could just as easily keep Itachi in such a genjutsu.

      But that's besides the point. In most ITachi fights, they never allow Itachi to rely on his Ninjutsu, they always jump straight to the Hax like TB and YM and Koto. Why not let them both duke it out with ninjutsu since we dont know what will happen if he uses Non-Kinjutsu Genjutsu on Menma?

      Based on Menma's fighting style, I dont see him giving Itachi the chance to seal him with the TB, being that he is fast on his feet. He has an amazing connection with Kurama to the point that he can manifest the beast outside his body and with the two working together, I dont see Black Kurama falling pray to the Genjutsu like normal Kurama would. Hell, if Menma reflects his Sharinga into Kurama's eyes, Kurama will has access to Kamui as well, which will pose even greater problems for Itachi.

      "Itachi can put him in Genjust and finish him with Totsuka Blade" Well Menma can finish him off by sending him to Kamui's Dimension, spam Spiralling Rings or Great Spiralling Rings, can easily dodge his techniques by sensing the negative intent, can have the Shinigami use his scythe to extract the chakra directly from Itachi's body with a simple swing. Not to mention he countered blows from Naruto's Sage Mode and could increase his own strength.

      "Itachi will then slice his throat" As if Kurama will sit by and let Itachi do so andwon't just heal Menma's throat if it happened.

      When fighting a very skilled opponent, you can't just rely on one field to defeat them. When people pit Madara and Hashirama against each other, they usually assume Madara's Genjutsu won't work on Hashi and I've read this on multiple occasions. Why do they assume this without solid proof? I have no clue, but they do. Yet people assume Menma will automatically fall for Itachi's non-hax genjutsu just because he's Itachi, when Obito has shown an impressive feat of genjutsu use with the standard Genjutsu: Sharingan. And this isn't even including Obito granting Menma use of his other abilities within the Genjutsu World.

      I like Itachi, but Genjutsu and tools alone won't win him this battle when he is working against a tailed beast and a skilled fighter that in base state can compete with a Sage Mode user.

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    • @Ninja of war

      As im reading the posts im starting to realize your very one sided on this debate.

      Whenever someone brings up solid evidence of Itachi beating Menma you just deny it and act like a total fanboy for Menma.

      A little advice try not being one sided next versus you create.

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    • @AyyynimeBoy

      Certain users bring up false points and twist evidence to fit a certain narrative. I don't stand for such things. I have not denied anything. Similar to @Naruto10647, you fell down the big gaping hole. You could have countered my points or scenario. Instead you chose to call me one sided and throw around the word fanboy.

      You now have lost credibility on this thread. Construct a reasonable counter and take your own advise.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @AyyynimeBoy

      Certain users bring up false points and twist evidence to fit a certain narrative. I don't stand for such things. I have not denied anything. Similar to @Naruto10647, you fell down the big gaping hole. You could have countered my points or scenario. Instead you chose to call me one sided and throw around the word fanboy.

      You now have lost credibility on this thread. Construct a reasonable counter and take your own advise.

      What makes you think that we don't have solid proof and evidence? I already said my scenario and you didn't counter it. As I said, Itachi had enough strength and speed to be able to be on par with Naruto in Rikudo mode, same Naruto who said he was superior to Sennin mode. Itachi also has Susano'o which was capable of tanking Kirin. An S-class jutusu in it’s own right. He’s also capable of forming it faster than actual lightning, which he did with insanely low chakra reserves. And what about Itachi's explosive clones,in addition to having the Susanoo to protect them from attacks.

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    • @Ninja of war

      While the point of users brining up fake evidence is clear in almost every versus and I fully agree with you on that. One thing no one has brought up to my knowledge, is that Menma would have to fight blind seeing that if he looked at Itachi, Menma would be trapped in his genjutsu. But like you said this battle will not be won with only genjutsu, and again I agree with that 100%. The thing is Itachi is one of the seven ninja (in the entire world!) to be able to use the full susanoo which could easily keep up with Menmas SM.


      This fight could easily go either way in a split second of battle. Seeing that you gave Menma the abilites of Obitos MS. But with a combination of his Susanoo and TB Itachi could put Menma in a genjutsu, have his Susanoo keep Kuruma busy while Itachi goes in for the kill.

      I would like to see a counter that will make me question this fight and let me put more thought into the subject.

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    • @Naruto10647

      I did. Scroll up, it's there. I countered that "speed feat" of yours. Susanoo did defend Itachi, but after the attack, his cloak was gone and his arm was damaged. So, Kirin got through Susanoo and injured him. But what does this have to do with Menma?

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    • ^ The main purpose of susanoo for this battle is to fight Kuruma and keep him busy so Itachi could put Menma into a genjutsu and finish him off. Basicly susanoo would be used as a diverson to keep kuruma from stopping Itachi kill Menma. If he did not have susanoo this battle would go to Menma...(but he does)

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Naruto10647

      I did. Scroll up, it's there. I countered that "speed feat" of yours. Susanoo did defend Itachi, but after the attack, his cloak was gone and his arm was damaged. So, Kirin got through Susanoo and injured him. But what does this have to do with Menma?

      When Sasuke used Kirin on Itachi,he wasn't it in his susano'o. Tell me,how would Menma go through Susano'o as well? Just a reminder,explosive clones would be around Susano'o protecting Itachi.

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    • ^How though? The scenario you have crafted doesn't just appear like that.

      I can agree with your previous post, to a point. Menma doesn't have SM. A few users have brought up that point that you mentioned. I even brought evidence how that can be dealt with. You didn't see that? Anyways, you haven't countered my scenario, (based on your posts I don't think you even read my scenario), so I don't feel the need to counter yours.

      However, if you are willing to have a discussion, then so do I. So, what's your counter?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^How though? The scenario you have crafted doesn't just appear like that.

      I can agree with your previous post, to a point. Menma doesn't have SM. A few users have brought up that point that you mentioned. I even brought evidence how that can be dealt with. You didn't see that? Anyways, you haven't countered my scenario, (based on your posts I don't think you even read my scenario), so I don't feel the need to counter yours.

      However, if you are willing to have a discussion, then so do I. So, what's your counter?

      What scenario?

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    • ^My Itachi vs Menma scenario.

      Short version: (neglecting sharingan genjutsu) Itachi starts off with kunai that are stopped by Menma. Menma releases the nine masked beasts. A scuffle breaks out, but Itachi uses Amaterasu, crow clones and fire release to defeat all but three masked beasts.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^My Itachi vs Menma scenario.

      May you send it again?

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    • @Ninja of War

      Never have I gave Itachi an ability he doesn't have? Which ability? Now you have reached the point of a fan arguing over a character he likes, and lying. The moment you said Itachi did not have Genjutsu: Sharingan, you lost the debate. When did you say that? When you said I gave abilities to Itachi he didn't have. However, the only ability I have mentioned to the post you replied to is Genjutsu: Sharingan. Therefore, you lied and said he didn't have it. Thus I can no longer trust anything you say. He does indeed have this jutsu since he is listed as a user in the Databook, and been shown to use it in the Manga.

      Then you say I have to disprove a Clone breaking out of Sharingan: Genjutsu. No I don't. Why? It wasn't instant as you suggest it is, which is a lie. Instant means the moment it happened. Yet, the clone was stuck in the Genjutsu for as long as it's entire body was burned. Sorry but that doesn't fall under the category as instant. In fact, Itachi even spoke, and it was still in Genjutsu while he spoke. So at least a few seconds passed.

      No. Menma cannot do the same until you prove he can. You are the one giving abilities to Menma that he doesn't have. He does not, nor have ever been shown to break Genjutsu instantly.

      Also, just cause Kakashi can break Genjutsu, doesn't mean Menma can. What kind of logic is that? That's like me saying just cause Gai can run non stop for days, so can Itachi. You have to prove Menma can break Genjutsu without Kurama, but you obviously can't which is why you dodge the question, thus Menma loses.

      P.s. "Certain users bring up false points and twist evidence to fit a certain narrative." This is rich coming from a guy claiming Itachi doesn't have Genjutsu: Sharingan and said Kakashi's Clone broke out instantly. We got a case of a pot calling a kettle black, here.

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    • ^If you think I'm referring to sharingan: genjutsu, then you are truly lost. You just made a false point. I'm referring to the genjutsu Obito used to control Yagura that you can't name. You gave that genjutsu to Itachi, even though you can't name it. Now you are trying to seg-way into Sharingan:Genjutsu to cover yourself. That is making up facts. Don't try to put words in my mouth and muddle the truth.

      Stop twisting things to seem right.

      On the clone point, guess you just disregarded my analysis of what transpired. Nothing surprising there considering how 'selective' you are. You disregarded several things, such as the clone using earth release. I didn't say the clone breaking out of the genjutsu was instant, I said it was one of the options.

      Again, you are crafting a narrative here by putting your own spin on what I said. I then said that, despite all the options of what happened, the clone was still able to proceed to grab Itachi, which is true. The clone had no visible signs of incapacitation. The clone didn't even hesitate.

      So yeah, you do have to show why a full powered Menma(with an MS) won't be able to do the same or better.

      Don't come at me with false accusations just to seem right, this is a discussion. If you don't understand ask, say no to ignorance.

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    • "If you think I'm referring to sharingan: genjutsu, then you are truly lost. You just made a false point. I'm referring to the genjutsu Obito used to control Yagura that you can't name. " Where in the post you replied to, did I mention the Genjutsu Yagura was put in? No where. So that wasn't the Genjutsu you were referring to, since I stopped mentioning cause you couldn't accept that Genjutsu was Genjutsu: Sharingan, despite that being the only Genjutsu Obito used. So yes, you referred to Genjutsu: Sharingan, since it was the only technique I mentioned. I didn't even mention the Yagura controlling abilities. Only the abilities Genjutsu; Sharingan is stated to have, check the Databook, Manga, and Wiki.

      So therefore, since it was the only Genjutsu and it's abilities were the only thing I mentioned, you could only be referring to it. Therefore you lied.

      "Stop twisting things to seem right." You're the one grasping at straws and taking things from Itachi and giving Menma abilities he never had. Like Obito's Mangekyo LOL. He never had it. Never did the character Menma use Mangekyo. Obito did though. Obito also possessed Menma's body, sure. But Obito does not equal Menma.

      "On the clone point, guess you just disregarded my analysis of what transpired. Nothing surprising there considering how 'selective' you are. You disregarded several things, such as the clone using earth release. I didn't say the clone breaking out of the genjutsu was instant, I said it was one of the options." Darn straight I'm going to disregard what you said. For the mere fact /If he was referring to the Shadow Clone, he would've said "I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu. /You're/ a Kage Bunshin (Shadow Clone)."/ He wouldn't have went from calling the Shadow clone /you/ to /this/. By saying /this/, it shows that he is talking to someone else, which you disregard. /This/ and /you/ are different identities associated to different things in this instance. It's common English.

      And no I don't have to prove why Menma with the ability to use Mangekyo can't break Genjutsu. Sharingan is never stated to be immune to Genjutsu. That argument is horrible. That's like saying "You have to prove why Sakura can't break Tsukuyomi". That's not how it works. I proved how Itachi can cast Genjutsu on Menma, you don't get to just say he breaks it just because he's Menma. LOL. That's called fanboy logic. I want proof he has the ability to do so. You have to prove why Menma is immune to Genjutsu or can break it, Lol. You also have to prove how Menma even has the knowledge on how he can even use the Mangekyo since it took Kakashi years before he was able to use it, despite unlocking it years prior.

      They're not accusations if those are the things you literally said.

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    • ^No, that's not what I was talking about. You have a bad habit of telling people what they must mean, that must stop. You want to be right by constructing falsities. Don't cry wolf just because things aren't going your way.

      You didn't prove what genjutsu Obito used on Yagura. So yeah, I can deny that Itachi suddenly has this technique. Are you also this late whining about the DP? LOL. Why then did you bother with this thread? Someone's true colors are showing.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Darn straight I'm going to disregard what you said.

      Everything I said about Kakashi's shadow clone was true. So you are denying the fact that the clone was able to 'push' through the genjutsu and grab Itachi? That part particularly bothers you. Why are you denying this? Again, don't cherry pick things because Itachi is involved.

      Gosh, you are running away with your own version of what I said. I'm saying, if a clone was able to 'push' through sharingan:genjutsu, Mema should be able to do the same or better. Due to him also having an MS and exceptional chakra control (Masked beast point). There is also the issue of the genjutsu maybe not being as strong as you think it is. I'll say it again, the clone was not visibly affected( real world).

      I'm not sure what you mean anymore, since it looks like all you have are false accusations and comparisons that don't make sense. Apparently a genjutsu that a clone can handle can't be handled by someone with similar abilities and exceptional chakra control, in your mind.

      Don't project your frustrations on me. You, like so many others, have fallen down the pit of ignorance, by throwing the word fanboy around. In doing so you have lost credibility on this thread.

      @Naruto10647

      I think I replied with the wrong post to your previous question. First off, the battle won't start with Itachi in Susanoo. There are preliminary stages of the fight. Secondly, why would Itachi have explosive clones around his Susanoo? Can he even? Susanoo requires a lot of chakra. We haven't seen him using any other technique while in Susanoo.

      Thirdly, Menma has a few options. Great-spiraling ring, Kamui for phasing and Kamui for absorption. Also maybe the grim reaper's jutsu would work as well. To get through Susanoo. Please give a scenario after you commented on mine.

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    • 1) Please show me where in the post you replied to, where I mentioned the Genjutsu that Yagura was placed in. If you can't, then why did you mention it when I stopped talking about it? No logic.

      2) Again. I don't need to prove it, since I don't need that Genjutsu. Genjutsu: Sharingan is already stated to have those abilities anyways. Please refer to the wiki page to see for yourself. :]

      3) When have I ever denied the clone pushing through the Genjutsu? I haven't. So why are you putting words in my mouth? Smh. All I stated was that the Clone was caught in the Genjutsu for a brief time. He was affected and there was a time duration. He was turned to paper, burned entirely, and Itachi was talking. /Then/ the clone grabbed Itachi in real life. The Genjutsu was never stated to have time diluting abilities so you can't give it that.

      4) Since the Clone was indeed affected, or that Genjutsu scene would of never been shown, I don't have to go on about this. Naruto proved that Itachi's Genjutsu isn't easy to break. He tried using the methods, Jiraiya, a legendary Sannin, gave him. How can Menma do what he did not? Is he going to use a different method? If so, what method?

      5) What I meant, you don't get to just say Menma breaks the Genjutsu instantly with the logic that he gets to do it cause he's Menma. You need to prove that he has the ability to break a Genjutsu from a high class Genjutsu user like Itachi. Menma is not Kakashi. He does not possess the same experience as Kakashi with Sharingan.

      6) I am neither frustrated or ignorant. If majority of people believe you to be an overly loving fan, then that is how you project yourself. That is no fault of anyone's, other than yours. I have lost no credibility since you are clearly a fan. Are you stating you are not a fan of Menma? Doubtful. Your arguments prove otherwise. The way you hype him up without feats an actual proof of having such abilities (such as being able to break Itachi's Genjutsu, just cause Kakashi can), proves you are an overly loving fan, or really want to win a debate and will do anything to do so, LOL. I'm a simple guy. All I require is proof. So far, you have given me none. I have retracted statements in the past after you have showed me actual proof. I am reasonable. But when I give proof, you twist it like saying "Kakashi was probably never affected by the Genjutsu, the whole Genjutsu thing never really happened" not your exact words, but from what you said, to me, looks like your analysis. How is that not fan logic? You also disregard the fact that Sharingan: Genjutsu's abilities and just state Menma can break the Genjutsu just because. How is that not fan logic? You see how it's hard not to call you a fan, this is how what you type looks to some people, if this is not the case, then you need to clarify.

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    • 1&2) It's because you didn't make a point of distinguishing the two or explaining you were wrong on the first point. You just seg-wayed into sharingan:Genjutsu and acted like you were talking about it all along, to seem right. Claiming you had proof on something you didn't know lol. So yeah, I'm not standing for such behaviour.

      3.1)In my earlier post, I called you out for disregarding my analysis of the entire Kakashi clone scenario. Where I explained everything that happened as it did. Trying to reason why the clone was able to do what it did. In your next post you confirmed that you denied what I said. So no, you can't weasel your way out of that one lol.

      3.2) The clone didn't seem too concerned in the genjutsu, so don't know what you are trying to achieve by bringing that up. Yes, Itachi started talking in the genjutsu, to the clone. Ch 260 confirms this, the bottom panel transitions to Kakashi's clone after Itachi comments how good a jutsu user he is.

      4)Yes you do. There is a precedent for Itachi's sharingan:genjutsu being dealt with easily by a clone. That alone is enough to discredit your point of Itachi winning with sharingan genjutsu only. Naruto is not a good indication of genjutsu strength. Up until that point he didn't experience sharingan genjutsu. And the training he received also calls into question when you consider who taught it to him.

      Yes, Jiraiya, is a Sanin. That don't make him the best teacher of genjutsu or how to deal with it. He himself claimed genjutsu is not his forte. Don't run with the Sanin narrative, I see what you are doing. Also, you are comparing that Naruto to Menma. Which is just laughable. Again, don't craft such narratives. Menma is more comparable to SM Naruto.

      5) If you actually read what I said. After the new evidence, I said Menma could also 'push' through the same way the clone did. The instant part is just you crafting things. Now, here is something. High class genjutsu is in question as I said, or are you denying again? So are you saying due to the clone having the sharingan, that resulting in the clone not being affected by the genjutsu?

      6)Lol, you think just because a majority thinks something is x, it has to be x. Now that's bad logic. No, it wasn't a majority, it was two users, which you are now the third. Yes you have lost credibility just like the others, you could have reasoned, but chose to use fanboy instead. Funny, you talk about proof, but deny actual feats. Ironic.

      Then claim I haven't given proof, when I was talking about actual feats. Again, bad logic. I copied what Itachi said and showed you how he was talking to the clone. But you write that off as fanboy logic. Lol, as I said, you are projecting. In paraphrased words of Itachi, Take a good look at yourself @LoneNinja or you will find yourself in trouble.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Boy someone is getting mad. Getting hostile there buddy. Simmer down.

      1&2) So now you are implying Obito could of used Izanagi or Infinite Tsukyomi to control Yagura? Boy are you grasping for air here. My proof is that Obito only has those two Genjutsus and Genjutsu: Sharingan. So those are the /only/ choices Obito could've used. If you say it isn't or might not be Genjutsu: Sharingan, then you imply it is one of the other two. Unless you're saying Obito might have another Genjutsu even though that isn't stated nor shown, thus means you are making up more facts.

      3) Disregard does not mean to deny. I suggest you look it up in a dictionary. Disregard means to ignore so no one is trying to weasel out of anything. You also keep dodging this "/If he was referring to the Shadow Clone, he would've said "I wouldn't expect /you/ to be affected by the Genjutsu. /You're/ a Kage Bunshin (Shadow Clone)."/ He wouldn't have went from calling the Shadow clone /you/ to /this/. By saying /this/, it shows that he is talking to someone else, which you disregard. /This/ and /you/ are different identities associated to different things in this instance. It's common English." The fact you dodge this, is all I need.

      3.2) He was caught for a brief time is my point. Menma can be as well, and thus get his throat slit.

      4) I can use the fact that he has never experienced Sharingan: Genjutsu argument for Menmas Case, since he also has never been stated to experience it.

      5) Where's your proof he can? Where has it been stated that Menma has any skills whatsoever against Genjutsu? Has it ever been shown Menma being caught in Genjutsu? How do you know he isn't weak to Genjutsu? You don't. All these ifs, buts, might, this, and that, does not work or equal proof.

      6) What actual feats have I denied? Stop getting hurt over a computer screen.

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    • All I see, is a bunch of whining. you both look like you're twisting facts to suit your needs. This vs forum is flawed as hell. It should have a panel of non biased judges and go by actual debate rules. That way only facts can be presented. A mod should come and ban this thread or something. You can see Ninja of War and LoneNinja getting hostile with each other. Both Ninjas wanna out ninja the other.

      From what I am reading though, War you seem incredibly biased, everyone seems to think Itachi wins, with a small amount thinking Menma does. I read the panel in Chapter 260. No way is Itachi talking to Kakashi's clone. But just cause Kakashi's clone can break a Genjutsu doesn't mean Menma can.

      Lone the point that Obito can only have three Genjutsu's is kinda dumb. Kakashi was said to have copied over a thousand jutsu but his jutsu list isn't over a thousand, so you can assume he has more jutsu then the jutsu he has listed.

      A mod should close this thread though, before it gets out of hand. I see name calling. People who get petty over a debate is eww.

      Naruto also makes a good point. I don't think Menma has the capability of getting through a Yata Mirror enhanced Susanoo. Menma's most op attack is his Great Spiralling Ring and I think I've seen a Susano'o survive worst.

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    • @LoneNinja

      Lol, project all you like, it's your coping mechanism.

      1&2) That isn't proof. I asked where in the manga is the genjutsu specifically stated. Since you stated it to be true, provide that evidence. If you don't, then you can't use it as a point.

      3.1) So you ignore my points which reflect feats. Yep, weaseling out is your specialty. He was talking about the technique, he didn't have to use another /you/. The fact that /you/ (lol) think that what /you/ said overrides what I said is hilarious.

      3.2) Yes, he experienced the genjutsu. 'Caught', implies he was affected by the genjutsu, i.e. suffered some negative effects. Which the clone visibly did not. What did Itachi do? Nothing. Itachi said he was too late in the genjutsu already. Menma throat not getting cut.

      4) You can try, but Menma has a MS.

      5) Yes, like all versus threads, there are a lot of ifs, buts etc. That's what a discussion is. From what I've come to realize, you don't want a discussion. You want to say your points, and then somehow think you are the supreme authority on what others say when they criticize it. Your language is quite snobbish and you like to talk down to people.

      When a point with an accompanying feat directly opposes your point. You try and discredit the opposing point by, downplaying, ignoring, and making up your own narrative.

      6) Scroll up, it's all there in my previous posts.

      @JamesDuh

      Nah, haven't been whining or biased. I understand it can seem that way since I have been defending Menma. But if you actually look at my posts, in particular, the ones where I describe my scenario, you'll see what I'm really talking about.

      Ch260, Itachi begins his speech inside the genjutsu. To the clone. Please explain that then. Yes, a clone can push through the genjutsu. Why is it a significant genjutsu then?

      Guess you didn't see my reply to @Naruto10647 also. It's a shame.

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    • Ninja of war. You should re-read yours and Lone's posts. It can be perceived as you both whining. You both have gotten pretty hostile, at least to me. As for the chapter. I see Itachi talk to the clone then stops. The clone then grabs Itachi. Then Itachi goes to speak. The manga panel switches from Itachi to Kakashi as he speaks, implying he is talking to Kakashi not the clone since the Manga doesn't showcase it anymore or it's reaction, which Kakashi replies with an order for Naruto to get Itachi and his Shadow Clone. And I can't be expected to read all your posts War. There's a lot, and most of them are wall texts. I don't have that kind of time. But if you want to restate your counter, I'll be happy to read it and tell you what I think.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Go ahead and deny all you want, that's /your/ coping mechanism.

      There's really no reason to continue with so many off topic discussions. All I gotta say, is you can't prove Menma can break Sharingan: Genjutsu in time before Itachi can cut his throat. If you can simply state it, then I'm done. No need to get all booty hurt. Sharingan: Genjutsu is stated to be able to control a tailed beast within a Jinchuriki, so Kurama's reserves are a no go.

      @JamesDuh

      I was neither hostile, nor whining. If I was, show me where. You are right about the Kakashi statement, and copying a thousand jutsus. I retract that statement.

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    • @JamesDuh

      I have. I admit, I got side-tracked trying to show him why his point won't work. Hostile? That's a strong word. I called him out on the things he did. Never did I whine.

      Yes, the panel does shift to Kakashi crawling out of the hole. But how does that refer to real Kakashi? Itachi says in the genjutsu that he didn't see the earth release in time. In any case, what's this alternative argument you are trying to say. Itachi saying to Kakashi that he expected his genjutsu not to work on him? How does that explain Itachi going in for genjutsu?

      There is a lot. Yet, you saw fit to judge me based on only what you wanted to read. This is a problem that a few other users also seem to have.

      Would you care for a rundown of the fight after you commented on my scenario?

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      My Itachi vs Menma scenario. Short version: (neglecting sharingan genjutsu) Itachi starts off with kunai that are stopped by Menma. Menma releases the nine masked beasts. A scuffle breaks out, but Itachi uses Amaterasu, crow clones and fire release to defeat all but three masked beasts.


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    • War. The problem with Itachi talking to the Shadow Clone theory that you are saying is that it becomes a contradiction. Since the clone was trapped in Genjutsu for a short amount of time. Sure, the clone pushed through it somehow and broke it. But if he was talking to the clone and said "I wouldn't expect you to be affected" then it becomes a contradiction to what we just witnessed. So it doesn't make sense for him to be talking to the clone. Why does it even matter if he was or not? What does that even have to do with Menma vs Itachi? Anyways, I did judge you off what I read. What else would I judge you on? Not sure what you're trying to say here. And sure, but first can I ask why Itachi is using Amaterasu so early in the fight? I don't think he would use such a jutsu so early, since Itachi doesn't have an Eternal Mangekyo, I don't think he would use his Mangekyo so carelessly, since it would result in him going blind.

      Lone. You were both whining in a way. You guys both got petty and resorted to name calling, he calling you ignorant, you calling him Fanboy. That too me, is whining. That is also a reasonable statement. Do you have a way for Menma to break Itachi's Genjutsu if he should get trapped in it? @War

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    • @JamesDuh.

      Yes, it does become a contradiction. I'm saying that Itachi was talking to the clone because the clone wasn't affected (note: I'm not saying he didn't experience the genjutsu.) If Itachi was talking to the real Kakashi, why did he try and use genjutsu, if he said Kakashi wouldn't be affected? That to me is your point.

      Again, this instance calls into question the genjutsu that Itachi used. It pokes some holes in the argument of Itachi catching people in genjutsu and winning. That is my point.

      You judge me off everything. Not just a few things you read of me defending Menma. That's not the whole story. I posted the short version of the scenario, it's just highlights. Black Kurama can help Menma out with genjutsu. But as I stated before, if a clone can push through, why can't Menma?

      Furthermore, @LoneNinja confirmed to ignore my points which had supporting feats. So yeah, I called him out on that.

      @LoneNinja

      Yeah, keep on projecting. Keep on ignoring my points. We can all see what you are doing. It's better to have a discussion, than trying to be right all the time.

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    • War. The problem, again, is that the clone was affected. Affected means to be influenced, which means to have an effect. The effect here is that the clone was in a Genjutsu realm for a short time. That is being affected. So if he stated to the clone "You weren't affected" then it is a contradiction that doesn't make sense. So there's no way he was talking to the clone for this very reason. I don't see why that's hard to grasp. I can't judge you off everything dude. As I said, I don't have the time to read everything you post since there is indeed a lot. And what do you even mean by judge you? Judge your point? Or you, yourself? Cause I don't think I judged any of your points except the ones you have provided since I joined the debate. Also can you answer Lone's question instead of trying to be hostile with each other? That's not how debates should work. :I

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    • @JamesDuh

      The clone experienced the genjutsu that's for sure. Affected, not so much. The contradiction here is apparent to me, that's why it's hard to grasp your interpretation. I'm also trying to indicate that, if you just read the posts where I defend Menma, then of course you will think I only want Menma to win. Which is not the case.

      I don't feel the need to answer Lone's question again. I have already answered it. Lone posted that he chose to ignore my points, so yeah, can't have a discussion there.

      Are you going to give a scenario though?

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    • War. Affected is to be influenced by. Influenced by means to have an effect. The effect here was Kakashi's clone was in the Genjutsu for a small amount of time. And if the contradiction is apparent to you, why go with that theory? If you theorize that Itachi is talking to a clone but the theory contradicts itself, that would prove the theory wrong. I still don't understand why this Manga Chapter even matters. I don't see you defending Itachi anywhere dude. So you definitely want Menma to win. And no I'm not giving a scenario, I'm looking at points and basing the winner off the most facts. I also have not seen you answer Lone's question as I skimmed through the posts. Can you quote yourself, where you answered it? It will help me see your side of things.

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    • @JamesDuh

      JamesDuh wrote: The effect here was Kakashi's clone was in the Genjutsu for a small amount of time.

      That may be true, but Itachi wasn't able to capitalize on that effect. So it wasn't that effective.

      JamesDuh wrote: And if the contradiction is apparent to you, why go with that theory? I still don't understand why this Manga Chapter even matters.

      No, your interpretation has the contradiction in it, not mine. That's why I don't understand it. The clone managed to overcome Itachi's genjutsu, quite easily. Itachi wasn't able to counter it. So, it speaks to the effectiveness of Itachi's genjutsu in general. That's the point.

      JamesDuh wrote: I don't see you defending Itachi anywhere dude. So you definitely want Menma to win.

      Once again you are being selective. Most of my posts with Lone have been trying to show why the fight won't end with genjutsu. That's what I've been showing the whole time. Never have I stated that Menma would win. Defending Itachi? Against what? I've been trying to move on from the genjutsu point. Please try to understand where I'm coming from.

      JamesDuh wrote: And no I'm not giving a scenario, I'm looking at points and basing the winner off the most facts. I also have not seen you answer Lone's question as I skimmed through the posts. Can you quote yourself, where you answered it? It will help me see your side of things.

      That's quite unfortunate. I was looking forward to your scenario. In any case, if you are not going to give one, I don't see the point of continuing. I don't know how objective you can be to be honest.

      I've got no beef with you or anyone here. Just can't understand why certain things are taken the way users want them, instead of how they are. I might have not been clear on my points, but I've tried to clarify them. I think that if we all try to understand what the post is trying to mean, then we can have an actual discussion.

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    • War. I don't see a contradiction in my post man. All I said is he can't be talking to the clone because then it contradicts itself. Because it was affected by the Genjutsu for a small amount of time. But he said it didn't affect the person he was talking to. Where's the contradiction other than that? I don't think I ever said the clone never overcame the Genjutsu. I actually agreed with you. I think you might be confusing me with Lone. I don't want to provide a scenario just in case i miss certain points. Since I don't have enough knowledge on Menma to give an accurate one. As long as you don't come at me like you came at Lone, we'll be fine. I won't attack you for your points, so go ahead and say them. I just want to see your side of things. That's why I'm asking to see a counter to Lone's question. You obviously know Menma, so I would like to know his capabilities so I myself can come to a scenario of how this fight will go.

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    • Vinuth123 wrote:

      Vinuth123 wrote: TSUKUYOMI is enough for itachi to win.

      dudes I said it 3 times

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    • @JamesDuh

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      If Itachi was talking to the real Kakashi, why did he try and use genjutsu, if he said Kakashi wouldn't be affected? That to me is your point.

      ^That is your contradiction. Honestly, it's not acceptable.

      I never came at you. Note, please don't come at me with accusations of being biased towards Menma, when I am not.

      @Vinuth123

      Care to give a rundown?

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    • @JamesDuh. You're wasting your time lol. He is a fanboy, the fact that only he seems to think Itachi was talking to Kakashi's clone, is priceless and doesn't make sense. You even came to the same conclusion as me.

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    • War. "If Itachi was talking to the real Kakashi, why did he try and use genjutsu, if he said Kakashi wouldn't be affected? That to me is your point." He used Genjutsu before he was talking? He wasn't talking to Kakashi, then used Genjutsu dude. He literally cast the Genjutsu. The clone was in the Genjutsu. Itachi started to talk to the clone. He stopped talking. Clone grabs him. Itachi begins talking to the real Kakashi who reveals himself. I can see now where you got confused. However, it's impossible for him to be talking to the clone in that instance for two very reasons, the clone is no longer shown but Kakashi himself as Itachi speaks, implying he is talking to Kakashi. And secondly, he stated to the person he was talking to that they weren't caught in the Genjutsu. The statements showcase two subjects, a person, and an object. object being a clone, person being Kakashi.

      Lone. Quit insulting War. I don't care if you agree with me. Do not act childish.

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    • @JamesDuh

      I can now understand you better. In ch260, the clone is still visible in the same panel. Let's look at the facts, Itachi clearly states that he wouldn't expect (insert Kakashi/clone) to be affected by the genjutsu. Your interpretation doesn't supersede mine, since Itachi wouldn't try to use a technique that he knows won't work on Kakashi. Please explain why your interpretation does.

      @LoneNinja

      It's clear that you don't want a discussion. It's also quite unfortunate that you think insults enhance your 'points'. Your use of the word 'fanboy' is once again incorrect. This casts you in a bad light. Please refrain from posting here if you are not gonna add anything to this discussion.

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    • War. The clone being slightly visible doesn't show much reaction. The only one reacting to Itachi, is Kakashi, this implies Itachi is talking to Kakashi. Itachi clearly states Kakashi will not be affected by the Genjutsu, because he was not caught in it. "This is a Shadow Clone." was his words being the reason why it wouldn't affect the person he was talking to. If he was referring to the clone, it becomes a contradiction and a statement that doesn't make sense. Cause the clone was caught in the Genjutsu. And if he was talking to the clone as you say, he is basically saying Shadow Clones are impervious to Genjutsu. Why would being a Shadow clone prevent it from being caught in it? Last I checked, Shadow Clones weren't impervious to Genjutsu. This indicates that he was talking to Kakashi, telling him he would not expect Kakashi to be affected by the Genjutsu since his clone was the one caught in it.

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    • Ninja of war said: @Vinuth123 Care to give a rundown?

      how will Menma counter tsukoyomi? It can be countered by an Uchiha who has the sharingan.

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    • @JamesDuh

      I can respect your interpretation, but it's still a bit lukewarm. Why would Itachi state the obvious? I still don't agree with it, but not gonna argue further. What do you think of the effectiveness of Itachi's genjutsu in that case? It shows a precedent for individuals handling Itachi's genjutsu.

      @Vinuth123

      Will Itachi immediately use Tsukuyomi? I also have a theory that Kamui can be used to counter Tsukuyomi.

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    • War. On that particular Genjutsu and other's can be broken pretty easily, which has been shown.

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    • @JamesDuh

      So, do you think the fight will end with genjutsu?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123

      Will Itachi immediately use Tsukuyomi? I also have a theory that Kamui can be used to counter Tsukuyomi.

      teleporting into kamui may be used to counter tsukuyomi, but, to win the battle, menma has to come back to earth at some point,and then itachi can use tsukuyomi. The only effective way to avoid tsukuyomi is to close one's eyes, but does menma have the ability to fight eyes closed like zabuza did?

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    • @Vinuth123

      Well, Menma does have negative emotion sensing.

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    • Menma is kinda on the top here, having more chakra plus obitos freaking ability '-' but itachi has a ace jutsu "tsukuyomi" it's like a one hit kill technique, just like totsuka. ...tsukuyomi does work on perfect jinchuriki's so I say it's a win win for itachi '-'

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    • War. No. I don't think a normal Genjutsu will be enough. But like my fellow peers say, Tsukuyomi is a great way to beat Menma.

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    • If you read the Itachi shinden novel you'll see that itachi can really manipulate time to a really small time, the novel explained the tsukuyomi to be one Pico second, I don't know which tailed beast would react to that if itachi uses it 😂

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    • @ ninja of war: negative emotions and genjutsu are two different things

      @james duh: Tsukuyomi is not NORMAL genjutsu.

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    • He can make however much time he wants pass, but he can't kill with it, as Kishimoto stated himself that Genjutsu can't kill by itself. Should Itachi use it even once, his vision will be blurry as shown and stated on the Tsukuyomi page. He'll need more than Genjutsu to win this battle.

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    • Literally everyone here says that Itachi will win and I agree. Well,it's time for the smart one to come in. Let's talk about Itachi's speed.We have seen he has the ability to anticipate and defend himself from such attacks such as Bees unique sword dance which tore apart sasuke. We have also seen part 2 kakashi keep up with Itachi taijutsu and speed wise however Itachi handspeed for forming seals is incredibly fast.

      I would put his speed feats on par or slightly better then your average kage level shinobi except for the likes of nins such as raikage, bee, naruto, gai and etc. the seven sword style does not utilize high speed movement in that you cross long distance quickly. It utilizes high speed striking, which is countered with reactions, something that Itachi is top tier at. As a weaker version of himself(Edo Tensei) he was the same speed as Sasuke(Able to match Kurama Chakra Cloak Naruto in speed in the Jinchuriki vs Nagato and Itachi fight). More information is that in the Itachi vs Sasuke fight,his speed was so incredible and fast that he appeared right infront of Sasuke and kicked him. Sasuke didn't even keep up with Itachi with his speed in that fight. Of course,Itachi was holding back. And yes, Itachi stated that tsukuyomi can only be broken by a relative sharingan user, but there are many things that were stated and ended up contradictory. At the end of the day, tsukuyomi is still a genjutsu. A tailed beast's mind is separated from the mind of a jinchuriki, yet they share the same plane. It's not like the tailed beast will also be put under the genjutsu.


      Itachi also stated this in part one, which was waay before the whole idea of jinchuriki-tailed beast cooperation. There are so many contradictions between the two parts...But Tsukuyomi is not a normal genjutsu,it would not be an easy task to break out of Tsukuyomi, which would give Itachi plenty of time to end Menma and with his susano'o sword,he would slit his throat...boom~ Itachi wins. Ninja of War,I have given you two ways how Itachi would win.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: He can make however much time he wants pass, but he can't kill with it, as Kishimoto stated himself that Genjutsu can't kill by itself. Should Itachi use it even once, his vision will be blurry as shown and stated on the Tsukuyomi page. He'll need more than Genjutsu to win this battle.

      tsukuyomi kills the victim psychologically

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    • @Vinuth123

      Yes they are. Itachi has the intent to kill and Menma can sense it.

      Tsukuyomi deals mental damage, if it is not broken. Menma has kyubi regeneration and Uzumaki stamina.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Which two ways?

      @Everyone

      Itachi is not immediately going to use Tsukuyomi in the fight. There are different phases in this fight. So, does anyone care to give a rundown?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123

      Yes they are. Itachi has the intent to kill and Menma can sense it.

      Tsukuyomi deals mental damage, if it is not broken. Menma has kyubi regeneration and Uzumaki stamina.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Which two ways?

      @Everyone

      Itachi is not immediately going to use Tsukuyomi in the fight. There are different phases in this fight. So, does anyone care to give a rundown?

      The two ways that I stated. Read my last post.And I know he won't use Tsukuyomi straight away. He'll first think of a plan and then lay it out as an improved plan. We all know he thinks fast.Also being intangabile and regular kamui speed is limited to two minutes. You said that,yourself.

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    • I did, but can't make out the points. Speed and genjutsu?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123

      Yes they are. Itachi has the intent to kill and Menma can sense it.

      Tsukuyomi deals mental damage, if it is not broken. Menma has kyubi regeneration and Uzumaki stamina.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Which two ways?

      @Everyone

      Itachi is not immediately going to use Tsukuyomi in the fight. There are different phases in this fight. So, does anyone care to give a rundown?

      Dude,go to narutopedia search and type "killing intent" it clearly states that it is not genjutsu.

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    • @Vinuth123

      I know man, I'm agreeing with you. I agree that negative emotion sensing is not a genjutsu.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123

      I know man, I'm agreeing with you. I agree that negative emotion sensing is not a genjutsu.

      Negative emotion sensing was never a genjutsu..lol.And yes,my two points are speed and genjutsu. Just read the whole post before you just counter the points that I gave.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Need a bit more than that. How would Itachi use those two points to win?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      Need a bit more than that. How would Itachi use those two points to win?

      I don't think you've read my whole post. I already said it in my last post. I'm posting it again. Literally everyone here says that Itachi will win and I agree. Well,it's time for the smart one to come in. Let's talk about Itachi's speed.We have seen he has the ability to anticipate and defend himself from such attacks such as Bees unique sword dance which tore apart sasuke. We have also seen part 2 kakashi keep up with Itachi taijutsu and speed wise however Itachi handspeed for forming seals is incredibly fast.

      I would put his speed feats on par or slightly better then your average kage level shinobi except for the likes of nins such as raikage, bee, naruto, gai and etc. the seven sword style does not utilize high speed movement in that you cross long distance quickly. It utilizes high speed striking, which is countered with reactions, something that Itachi is top tier at. As a weaker version of himself(Edo Tensei) he was the same speed as Sasuke(Able to match Kurama Chakra Cloak Naruto in speed in the Jinchuriki vs Nagato and Itachi fight). More information is that in the Itachi vs Sasuke fight,his speed was so incredible and fast that he appeared right infront of Sasuke and kicked him. Sasuke didn't even keep up with Itachi with his speed in that fight. Of course,Itachi was holding back. And yes, Itachi stated that tsukuyomi can only be broken by a relative sharingan user, but there are many things that were stated and ended up contradictory. At the end of the day, tsukuyomi is still a genjutsu. A tailed beast's mind is separated from the mind of a jinchuriki, yet they share the same plane. It's not like the tailed beast will also be put under the genjutsu.


      Itachi also stated this in part one, which was waay before the whole idea of jinchuriki-tailed beast cooperation. There are so many contradictions between the two parts...But Tsukuyomi is not a normal genjutsu,it would not be an easy task to break out of Tsukuyomi, which would give Itachi plenty of time to end Menma and with his susano'o sword,he would slit his throat...boom~ Itachi wins. Ninja of War,I have given you two ways how Itachi would win.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      I guess I'm asking for a scenario here. Your post isn't telling of how the fight would proceed.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      I guess I'm asking for a scenario here. Your post isn't telling of how the fight would proceed.

      It's clear your avoiding my post. And I do have a small scenario there. Please counter the points that I have given to you.

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    • Um no, I'm asking for a scenario. All you say is speed and genjutsu. Then you say Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and Susanoo to win. That isn't a scenario. You said yourself that Itachi won't use Tsukuyomi immediately, so please elaborate.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Um no, I'm asking for a scenario. All you say is speed and genjutsu. Then you say Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and Susanoo to win. That isn't a scenario. You said yourself that Itachi won't use Tsukuyomi immediately, so please elaborate.

      Scenario: Itachi and Menma meet up on the battlefield and know that they have to kill each other for whatever reasons. Itachi first would throw multiple shurikens connected with wire which would tye Menma up. In that time,Itachi would quickly think of a plan that could be used to defeat Menma. He succesfully does so and Menma dodges the shurikens easily with no diffuculty. Itachi would dash at him with his speed with a paper bomb in his hand ready to explode at any time. He would try to put a paper bomb on Menma and finds that he is intangible but Itachi turns out to be an explosive clone exploding damaging Menma slightly. Itachi appears a few feet away. He then does the jutsu, Fire Style: Fire Ball Jutsu! Menma would easily jump out of the way leading the fire ball to nothing. Since the two minutes between being intangabile and kamui speed,Itachi then dashes at him with just two kunai paper bombs in his hand,with his speed he appears behind him and puts a paper bomb on him exploding on Menma's back. Menma then decides to go serious.While Itachi didn't react in time,Menma used the jutsu,Repulsion Technique blasting Itachi far back.Since Itachi's handseals are so fast,he instantly used the jutsu,Water Release: Starch Syrup Capturing Field!. This jutsu caused the immobilization of them and Itachi went ahead and prepared his Tsukuyomi giving him enough time since Menma was immobilized. He then uses Tsukuyomi on him and activated his Susano'o,while he was in the Tsukuyomi,Itachi quickly reacted and slit his throat chopping his head off.

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    • Vinuth. I never said Tsukuyomi was a normal Genjutsu, what?

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Thank you for your rundown.

      A few problems there are. Menma would 'stop' those multiple shurikens connected with wire. They would not even reach Menma. Itachi would see this and begin to analyze Menma's abilities. Itachi would be cautions. I don't see Itachi using paper bombs, did he ever use them? Menma's reaction speed is quite immense.

      After the first instance with Itachi, Menma would likely release the nine masked beasts. Itachi doesn't have the starch syrup technique. Even if he did, Menma can repel it. Itachi can't use Susanoo and Tsukuyomi at the same time, too much chakra. Did you account for Menma throwing spiraling rings?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      Thank you for your rundown.

      A few problems there are. Menma would 'stop' those multiple shurikens connected with wire. They would not even reach Menma. Itachi would see this and begin to analyze Menma's abilities. Itachi would be cautions. I don't see Itachi using paper bombs, did he ever use them? Menma's reaction speed is quite immense.

      After the first instance with Itachi, Menma would likely release the nine masked beasts. Itachi doesn't have the starch syrup technique. Even if he did, Menma can repel it. Itachi can't use Susanoo and Tsukuyomi at the same time, too much chakra. Did you account for Menma throwing spiraling rings?

      Yes,he does have the starch syrup technique. It states in this wiki itself. Thank you for your counter about both Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. I think that is right about using too much chakra however there could still be a way.Itachi could use Chakra Suppression Technique! This technique makes their chakra undetectable. Can you have a counter to this technique?

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    • ^Negative emotions sensing. How do you think spiraling rings would affect the fight?

      P.S. Itachi won't be able to use jutsu, if he uses the suppression technique.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Negative emotions sensing. How do you think spiraling rings would affect the fight?

      P.S. Itachi won't be able to use jutsu, if he uses the suppression technique.

      I know he won't be able to use jutsu. And for spiraling rings,hmmm..it's said to be equal in power with Naruto's Sage Mode rasenshuriken.He could possibly anticipate Menma's movement before he attacks. He has sharingan so he could which further proves my theory.He could use crows...those are the only two ways that I think he can counter spiralling ring.

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    • ^And Great spiraling rings?

      Also, Menma has a technique that stops projectiles. Taking projectiles out of the equation is going to limit Itachi quite a bit.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^And Great spiraling rings?

      Also, Menma has a technique that stops projectiles. Taking projectiles out of the equation is going to limit Itachi quite a bit.

      I think he can predict it with his Sharingan so he can move away with his speed. But before he would move away,he would blast something back or intercept so he would have time to move away.How will Menma counter Early Sacrifice? (check in the wiki about the Jutsu,it’s listed as an Jutsu in Itachi’s Page,I cba to explain the Jutsu right now.) And How will Menma counter Izanami?

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    • Great Spiraling rings have a large radius of exposure. Itachi can't simply dodge that.

      Both early sacrifice and Izanami require physical contact, Menma has Kamui. Also Menma has the repulsion technique. Izanami requires a lot of prep as well, Menma not gonna let up during this fight.

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    • @jamesDuh:

      sorry I thought you were talking about tsukuyomi when you said normal genjutsu.

      @ninja of war:

      can you tell me how menma will do against tsukuyomi

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Great Spiraling rings have a large radius of exposure. Itachi can't simply dodge that.

      Both early sacrifice and Izanami require physical contact, Menma has Kamui. Also Menma has the repulsion technique. Izanami requires a lot of prep as well, Menma not gonna let up during this fight.

      Simply by that,he could make a clone that could take the hit and Itachi would move back

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    • ^I don't think you understand. One Great spiraling ring can destroy an entire village. Making a clone to take damage isn't going to help.

      @Vinuth123

      Like I said before, Menma has the masked beasts to help with that. Also, a more obscure method would be to use Kamui.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^I don't think you understand. One Great spiraling ring can destroy an entire village. Making a clone to take damage isn't going to help.

      @Vinuth123

      Like I said before, Menma has the masked beasts to help with that. Also, a more obscure method would be to use Kamui.

      I know it destroyed an whole village but Itachi can move far away with his speed,can't he?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^I don't think you understand. One Great spiraling ring can destroy an entire village. Making a clone to take damage isn't going to help.

      @Vinuth123

      Like I said before, Menma has the masked beasts to help with that. Also, a more obscure method would be to use Kamui.

      How does that help with tsukuyomi

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    • There's no way Itachi can escape the Village of Konohagakure before Menma's Great Spiraling Ring goes off. He may be fast, but he isn't that fast.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: There's no way Itachi can escape the Village of Konohagakure before Menma's Great Spiraling Ring goes off. He may be fast, but he isn't that fast.

      He simply uses his crows to go off.

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    • LMFAO. A crow can't fly that fast. Name a proven method in the series that he has shown. I watched the scene where Menma destroyed Konoha and it took 6 seconds for it to casually fall out his hand from high up and detonate, and that's the attack just being casually dropped, not thrown or shot from his hand. Show me a crow that's both big enough to carry Itachi and that can escape Konoha in 6 seconds before the village detonates.

      His body flicker isn't gonna save him this time.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: LMFAO. A crow can't fly that fast. Name a proven method in the series that he has shown. I watched the scene where Menma destroyed Konoha and it took 6 seconds for it to casually fall out his hand from high up and detonate, and that's the attack just being casually dropped, not thrown or shot from his hand. Show me a crow that's both big enough to carry Itachi and that can escape Konoha in 6 seconds before the village detonates.

      His body flicker isn't gonna save him this time.

      The hell you talkin about? Crows dont carry Itachi...the crows would emerge as a part of his body and fly away. And yes,he can fly far away in 6 seconds but would be part of the explosion and damaged. While the smoke clears,Itachi activates his susano'o and slits his throat.

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    • Just my two sense, Menma didn't destroy Konoha, he destroyed a part of Konoha (Most). And no way is Itachi escaping such an attack with crows. However. If a Body Flicker can allow Genin such as Sakura, outrun sound, it just might allow Itachi to dodge. But that's still a tough call.

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    • JamesDuh wrote: Just my two sense, Menma didn't destroy Konoha, he destroyed a part of Konoha (Most). And no way is Itachi escaping such an attack with crows. However. If a Body Flicker can allow Genin such as Sakura, outrun sound, it just might allow Itachi to dodge. But that's still a tough call.

      I did say he would be damaged but while the smoke is there,he would activate his susano'o and chop off his head.

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    • Typical fanboys "Itachi gonna activate Susanoo and slit his throat". Also, Menma can fly, so he doesn't need to casually drop the attack from high up. He could very well throw it at Itachi as he flies up in the air or away from him.

      Also, good luck dodging an explosion like that. People never have Itachi using his brain anymore, they rely on the chance that smoke blocks an opponents vision so he can use his sword, then they have him use a shield that doesn't live up to its hype.

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    • @Princeharris1993

      Truth has been spoken. Although, in this case @HeroOfSacrifice is confused.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Itachi isn't dodging that. Firstly, Itachi can't disperse into crows. Itachi's crow clones disperse into crows when they are defeated. When Itachi uses genjutsu, his victims perceive him to disperse into crows.

      Secondly, Great spiraling ring is too vast to be simply dodged. It's similar to when Pein destroyed Konoha. Thirdly, Great Spiraling ring looks like a regular spiraling ring. Itachi won't know what's coming nor will he know how far he needs to run.

      Finally, even if Itachi uses Susanoo to block the great spiraling ring, can Susanoo tank it? Menma can throw multiple Great spiraling rings. Menma can fly, how is Itachi gonna get in range to stab Menma, while Itachi himself is injured and running out of chakra?

      P.S. Menma has negative emotion sensing, so smoke is not gonna hinder Menma, but it would hinder Itachi's sharingan.

      @Vinuth123

      Look at the chiyo strategy for dealing with sharingan genjutsu.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Princeharris1993

      Truth has been spoken. Although, in this case @HeroOfSacrifice is confused.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Itachi isn't dodging that. Firstly, Itachi can't disperse into crows. Itachi's crow clones disperse into crows when they are defeated. When Itachi uses genjutsu, his victims perceive him to disperse into crows.

      Secondly, Great spiraling ring is too vast to be simply dodged. It's similar to when Pein destroyed Konoha. Thirdly, Great Spiraling ring looks like a regular spiraling ring. Itachi won't know what's coming nor will he know how far he needs to run.

      Finally, even if Itachi uses Susanoo to block the great spiraling ring, can Susanoo tank it? Menma can throw multiple Great spiraling rings. Menma can fly, how is Itachi gonna get in range to stab Menma, while Itachi himself is injured and running out of chakra?

      P.S. Menma has negative emotion sensing, so smoke is not gonna hinder Menma, but it would hinder Itachi's sharingan.

      @Vinuth123

      Look at the chiyo strategy for dealing with sharingan genjutsu.

      So you're saying that Itachi can't use susano'o when injured? Look at the Susano'o Itachi vs Sasuke when Itachi is badly injured and yet activated his susano'o.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Please answer my questions. Itachi is gonna spend a lot of chakra reforming Susanoo.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      Please answer my questions. Itachi is gonna spend a lot of chakra reforming Susanoo.

      It looks as if you,the one who created this thread,is backing up for Menma. As I said,he would have explosion clones guard the Susano'o around him and each would take the hit as well as damaging the real one. And yes,Menma can fly but I don't think he will expect the cut from the susano'o sword but who knows? He might or might not. Honestly,it also seems as if your a fanboy. No wonder why only me and you are arguing. No wonder why this is a dead thread.

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    • HeroOfSacrifice wrote:

      It looks as if you,the one who created this thread,is backing up for Menma. As I said,he would have explosion clones guard the Susano'o around him and each would take the hit as well as damaging the real one. And yes,Menma can fly but I don't think he will expect the cut from the susano'o sword but who knows? He might or might not. Honestly,it also seems as if your a fanboy. No wonder why only me and you are arguing. No wonder why this is a dead thread.

      ?? Actually, there are a few others still giving their input.

      It's unfortunate that you have to incorrectly throw around the word 'fanboy'. The discussion was going fine, until you spoiled it. Well, if you can't answer my questions, then thats that.

      Please try to accept criticism constructively of Itachi. As you seem to be a fan of him.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      HeroOfSacrifice wrote:

      It looks as if you,the one who created this thread,is backing up for Menma. As I said,he would have explosion clones guard the Susano'o around him and each would take the hit as well as damaging the real one. And yes,Menma can fly but I don't think he will expect the cut from the susano'o sword but who knows? He might or might not. Honestly,it also seems as if your a fanboy. No wonder why only me and you are arguing. No wonder why this is a dead thread.

      ?? Actually, there are a few others still giving their input.

      It's unfortunate that you have to incorrectly throw around the word 'fanboy'. The discussion was going fine, until you spoiled it. Well, if you can't answer my questions, then thats that.

      Please try to accept criticism constructively of Itachi. As you seem to be a fan of him.

      I answered your questions. Please read the post again.

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    • ^Um no, you didn't. Please read the post again.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Um no, you didn't. Please read the post again.

      Um no....please the read the post again.

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    • ^Lol

      Ok, since you missed it, I'll rephrase. Do you think Itachi's Susanoo can tank a great spiraling ring?

      P.S. Clones can't tank it.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Lol

      Ok, since you missed it, I'll rephrase. Do you think Itachi's Susanoo can tank a great spiraling ring?

      P.S. Clones can't tank it.

      No.

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    • ^OK

      So how is Itachi gonna defend himself?

      Also, how would Itachi know to put up Susanoo?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^OK

      So how is Itachi gonna defend himself?

      Also, how would Itachi know to put up Susanoo?

      Merely by the susano'o defending himself. He would be injured badly but Itachi's susano'o sword chops off Menma's head and they both die meaning it's a draw.

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    • ^What?

      Menma would be floating above the blast radius. Itachi is nowhere near there. Please explain.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^What?

      Menma would be floating above the blast radius. Itachi is nowhere near there. Please explain.

      By pointing his susano'o sword up to Menma and chopping it off.

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    • ^Lol

      Itachi is not in range. As you stated, the smoke will hinder Itachi's vision.

      A rethink on that one?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Lol

      Itachi is not in range. As you stated, the smoke will hinder Itachi's vision.

      A rethink on that one?

      How exactly will the smoke hinder Itachi's vision? He has sharingan to look through the smoke.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123 Look at the chiyo strategy for dealing with sharingan genjutsu.

      this would work against genjutsu:sharingan, but tsukuyomi can only be countered by an Uchiha with the sharingan.

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    • Vinuth123 wrote:

      Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123 Look at the chiyo strategy for dealing with sharingan genjutsu.

      this would work against genjutsu:sharingan, but tsukuyomi can only be countered by an Uchiha with the sharingan.

      I agree. Tsukuyomi can only be countered with a sharingan and the same blood as the caster. It states in this wiki itself. Plus,Obito kept Yagura who was a perfect jinchuuriki under a genjutsu.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Sharingan can't see through everything.

      @Vinuth123

      Chiyo's strategy would work, the masked beasts would act as the multiple allies.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      Sharingan can't see through everything.

      @Vinuth123

      Chiyo's strategy would work, the masked beasts would act as the multiple allies.

      You have not countered my post. Tsukuyomi cannot be countered in Menma's case. Tsukuyomi can only be countered if you have a sharingan and the same blood as the caster. The wiki states it itself. And if I believe correctly,Itachi also states that.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      I don't have to, since I'm not disagreeing. Chiyo's strategy will work, since it would prevent Itachi from using Tsukuyomi.

      What does Obito's abilities have to do with Itachi?

      P.S. When Itachi said that, he was still lying to Sasuke as I recall. It does cast a bit of doubt, you have to admit.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @HeroOfSacrifice

      I don't have to, since I'm not disagreeing. Chiyo's strategy will work, since it would prevent Itachi from using Tsukuyomi.

      What does Obito's abilities have to do with Itachi?

      P.S. When Itachi said that, he was still lying to Sasuke as I recall. It does cast a bit of doubt, you have to admit.

      Hm..yes..it does cast a bit of doubt. And Itachi did let Sasuke out of the tsukuyomi,I think so. And this is not Obito vs Itachi. It is Menma with Obito's MS's abilites vs Itachi. Note that Obito was nigh unbeatable because of his intangibility, or in other words, evasion against physical attacks, which is what most characters in the series have. But Itachi's skillset doesn't require much physical contact.

      Tsukuyomi warps perception of time in a world where Itachi is literally god. Intangibility doesn't remove eyesight so it's gg. Amaterasu is the answer to kamui, since it casts instantly as the eye focuses and there is a time delay when using Kamui to go intangible and Menma isn't fast enough to dodge it. Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the answer to Menma's Kamui.Moreover, itachi didn't die from chakra exhaustion, he died because he succumbed to his disease.Sasuke's experience with Tsukuyomi wasn't all that hard. He got his eye taken. So what? Kakashi had to suffer 3 days of torture and was in a coma for weeks. So Tsukuyomi, even if breakable is still gg due to time difference. The 1 second it takes to break Tsukuyomi is already enough for Itachi to make you live a lifetime of hell.

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    • ^Well, glad we can understand each other.

      Obito's intangibility warps parts of the user's body into kamui space. Theoretically, Menma could warp his head only to avoid Tsukuyomi. No, Amaterasu is not instantaneous. There is a slight delay. Which Menma can capitalize on.

      Kamui intangibility doesn't have a delay. Kamui teleporting has a delay. There's a big difference.

      Menma doesn't have to dodge Amaterasu, he can repel it or stop it.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Well, glad we can understand each other.

      Obito's intangibility warps parts of the user's body into kamui space. Theoretically, Menma could warp his head only to avoid Tsukuyomi. No, Amaterasu is not instantaneous. There is a slight delay. Which Menma can capitalize on.

      Kamui intangibility doesn't have a delay. Kamui teleporting has a delay. There's a big difference.

      Menma doesn't have to dodge Amaterasu, he can repel it or stop it.

      If he warps the head into kamui space,how will he be able to see?

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    • He won't need to see, he uses the MS to predict Itachi's actions and then warps to defend himself. Plus, Menma could use negative emotion sensing(NES) to err...sense Itachi.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: He won't need to see, he uses the MS to predict Itachi's actions and then warps to defend himself. Plus, Menma could use negative emotion sensing(NES) to err...sense Itachi.

      Itachi will use Chakra Suppression Technique,after some time,he would sneak up on Menma and stab him.

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    • ^Nice try, NES senses regardless of suppression.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Nice try, NES senses regardless of suppression.

      Okay.....Though Izanami has a lot of prep,Itachi would still put Menma in Izanami. We know that Itachi has intellect and will make a way of how to cast Menma in Izanami.

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    • Izanami requires physical contact and Menma can use Kamui.

      Lol, this debate is quite different from the wall posts before.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Izanami requires physical contact and Menma can use Kamui.

      Lol, this debate is quite different from the wall posts before.

      Menma's Kamui is limited to two minutes as you have stated. Itachi would make physical contact in that two minutes.

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    • Another two senses. Tsukuyomi only requires eye contact. It really doesn't matter if Menma's head is in another dimension. If eye contact is made, the technique can be cast. Amaterasu is sort of instant. The flames appear instantly, however only after the charge up of the technique. Or in other words, the user has to gather whatever needed to use it, while their eyes tend to bleed at times, then conjure the flames instantly on whatever their eyes are focused on. However, I don't see Itachi using these techniques so early in a fight.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Repulsion technique still in play.

      @JamesDuh

      Could Menma telekinetically stop Amaterasu?

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    • It does matter if his body is isn't there. If his body isn't there, how can true eye contact be established? He might as well be attempting to use Genjutsu on something without chakra. Basically Obito is teleporting himself to another dimension and leaving a shell of his former self in the default dimension. You can still see him, but you cant interact with him in any way, shape or form until either he returns, or you use his other eye to teleport to the current space he is in and harm him.

      If you cant touch him, what makes you think light reflecting off your eye will touch him? Everything uses a medium to transfer from place to place, even Genjutsu, whether it be sound, vibration, chakra, the earth, light or even space surrounding you.

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    • If obito can talk while being intangible,there is no reason why he can't be caught in genjutsu.

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    • I'm done with this. Nor of them two don't understand. I'm out

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    • Vinuth123 wrote: If obito can talk while being intangible,there is no reason why he can't be caught in genjutsu.

      Recall how kamui intangibility works. Then you'll see how it's possible.

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    • If you make valid points and I make valid points, then we can both agree that Genjutsu affecting an Intangible Obito remains uncertain. We have no proof if genjutsu can catch him while he's Intangible, but we DO know he can't be interacted with PHYSICALLY and Genjutsu PHYSICALLY disrupts the chakra in the brain of a target. If his body isn't physically there, it can't physically affect him. Also, Obito can apparently hear people when his body wasn't even in the real world (Naruto/466/17), as he replied to the Raikage and Tsuchikage even though he literally started warping his body back into the real world.

      Itachi stated that only those with the same blood as him can break it but umm.... guess what? No matter how closely related to someone you are, you'll never have the same blood as them. All Uchiha have "the same blood" running through them, but the blood isn't 100% the same. Madara stated that he and Sasuke were related by more than just blood, but that doesn't mean that their blood is 100% identical to one another. Itachi's statement was never proven because he's never proven, and even though people will point to him using it on Kakashi, that proves nothing, mainly because Itachi isn't a Uchiha and Itachi and Kakashi aren't related in any way, let alone by blood. Sasuke could have just as easily broke out of it because he's a blood relative of Itachi, a Uchiha or because of either or combined with the fact that he had a Sharingan. We have no solid proof if Itachi's statement is true or not because we don't have enough proof.

      There were talks floating around that the someone at the Kage Summit undid the effects of Kotoamatsukami because they were made aware that they was under its affects, despite the fact that it's supposed to be an unbreakable Genjutsu (Naruto/469/7). The Yata Mirror is supposed to block all attacks, yet it has no shown proof. Temari's fan is supposed to be able to blow away the universe (I think it was exaggeration and funny at that) but you get my point.

      Only the Shin's share the same blood, and even that will vary slightly with deformities in their genes due to genetic cloning.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Vinuth123 wrote: If obito can talk while being intangible,there is no reason why he can't be caught in genjutsu.

      Recall how kamui intangibility works. Then you'll see how it's possible.

      I went over the kamui page, but I didn't get what you meant.

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    • Since being intangible with kamui is limited to two minutes,Itachi would take that two minutes to hit his Tsukuyomi on him. Itachi's prowess with the technique has allowed him to alter the perception of time with ease within the genjutsu to make a few seconds seem like many days as a means to torture the target. This results in the victim suffering psychological trauma that incapacitates them for a considerable period of time. After Itachi used it on Kakashi Hatake in Part I, Kisame Hoshigaki was surprised that Kakashi's mind was still intact. Only Tsunade has been shown capable of curing this psychological damage. And Tsunade won't be there. The thing is that Tsukuyomi can only be broken with a sharingan and the same blood so it will be over for Menma. Furtheremore,f a victim is forced to experience a drastic passage of time in the fraction of a second Tsukuyomi is actually active, the stress on their mind would kill them, even if the genjutsu was a happy and peaceful one, such as when Itachi uses this technique to kill Izumi Uchiha by having her experience decades worth of time in a fraction of a second. This is definitely too much for Menma.

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    • @Vinuth123

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Obito's intangibility warps parts of the user's body into kamui space. Theoretically, Menma could warp his head only to avoid Tsukuyomi. No, Amaterasu is not instantaneous. There is a slight delay. Which Menma can capitalize on.

      Kamui intangibility doesn't have a delay. Kamui teleporting has a delay. There's a big difference.

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    • HeroOfSacrifice

      Kishi stated himself that genjutsu can't kill by itself and only when combined with Senjutsu can Yin Release be used offensively, as in killing a target. Kishi Canon > Novels.

      And Itachi's Genjutsu isn't going to physically disrupt Menma's chakra if his body isn't physically there.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: HeroOfSacrifice

      Kishi stated himself that genjutsu can't kill by itself and only when combined with Senjutsu can Yin Release be used offensively, as in killing a target. Kishi Canon > Novels.

      And Itachi's Genjutsu isn't going to physically disrupt Menma's chakra if his body isn't physically there.

      You haven't read my whole post. Having kamui and kamui intangibility is limited to two minutes.

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    • ^Of continuous usage yes.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^Of continuous usage yes.

      Meaning Itachi will hit Tsukuyomi on Menma in those two minutes.

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    • ^No, Itachi only has a chance to hit Menma outside of the two minute mark.

      Although, how would Itachi know?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^No, Itachi only has a chance to hit Menma outside of the two minute mark.

      Although, how would Itachi know?

      he would know because of his sharingan, duh

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^No, Itachi only has a chance to hit Menma outside of the two minute mark.

      Although, how would Itachi know?

      I doubt he'd take a break since Itachi has to kill Menma for whatever reasons so Itachi would keep attacking.

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    • @Vinuth123

      No, Itachi won't know the time limit.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Itachi won't be able to spam Tsukuyomi, he would try to use it once or twice at most.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinuth123

      No, Itachi won't know the time limit.

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      Itachi won't be able to spam Tsukuyomi, he would try to use it once or twice at most.

      I know he won't be able to spam. And if he uses it twice,a lot of chakra would be gone as well as Menma being killed. Still,I'd think that Itachi would survive.

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    • ^So, what do you think about Menma's telekinesis?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: ^So, what do you think about Menma's telekinesis?

      You haven't countered my post. I'll be waiting.

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    • "Itachi will know because of the Sharingan"

      What kind of logic is that? Kakashi couldn't tell whenever Obito was intangible even with Obito's Sharingan, lmfao, and didn't even know the eyes were linked for the longest time. Itachi's Sharingan won't tell him anything about Obito being tangible or intangible. And I did read your post. You didn't even reply to my entire post and I explained it in a very reasonable way, explaining how Kamui would be effective against preventing Menma from being caught in his Genjutsu as well as why Sasuke and Itachi don't share the same blood.

      There's nothing preventing Menma from sneaking up on Itachi from the ground while possessed by Obito and having his Sharingan. Obito sneaked up on Fuu and Torune like it was nothing and they were quite capable.

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    • @HeroOfSacrifice

      Menma wouldn't be killed like that, I already countered a similar post of yours. Please comment on my earlier post.

      P.S. Itachi has recoil when using MS techniques as well.

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    • Probably Itachi, we've got more stuff on him in the way of feats and stats but not much on Menma outside of his debut movie. I mean I guess you could use that Ten Ten filler episode if you were desperate but I'm pretty sure that's non-canon AF.

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    • ^That's not the same Menma @Starscream1998.

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    • I realise that hence why I said if you were desperate. I don't actually expect anyone would be stupid enough to actually use that filler.

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    • @Ninja of War
      Can Menma even use his power under Obito's control?

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    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Please read the DP.

      @Starscream1998 and @Namikazenaruto9

      Care to give a rundown?

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    • You don't need a rundown, I was making a joke that some people if desperate enough would use that Ten Ten filler even though it's not canon or even the same Menma. My serious answer to the OP is Itachi obviously.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Namikazenaruto9

      Please read the DP.

      @Starscream1998 and @Namikazenaruto9

      Care to give a rundown?

      DP? You don't seem to get gravity of the fight?
      I will cut to the chase, You have an Obito who has his Sharingan-Kamui and Nine-Tails. And possibly even Pain like abilities, Now tell me who would win?

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    • @Ninja of War

      You still haven't given me a counter to Tsukuyomi.

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    • HeroOfSacrifice wrote: @Ninja of War

      You still haven't given me a counter to Tsukuyomi.

      Guy is jinchuriki. what more do you need?

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    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Gravity? Yeah, I understand the fight, that's why I'm asking for a rundown.

      P.S. Menma is the jinchuriki (he might be something else since he lacks a seal) or is that sarcasm?

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      I have given several. You haven't commented on Menma using telekinesis though.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Namikazenaruto9

      Gravity? Yeah, I understand the fight, that's why I'm asking for a rundown.

      P.S. Menma is the jinchuriki (he might be something else since he lacks a seal) or is that sarcasm?

      Let's put another perspective here. How far do you think Would Itachi go against Obito/Tobi?
      Or How far Itachi can go against 6 paths of pain or Full fledged Kurama Jinchuriki?
      Maybe Itachi might win somehow against these guys after long struggle. But against person who can use all these three capabilities? I think so it should be stomp. Itachi shouldn't win, his only chance might be Tsukuyomi but Kurama's chakra might heal him completely.(after breaking genjutsu that is).

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    • The only requirement for Tsukuyomi is eye contact. Doesn't matter if the other person is in another dimension. If he can see into Itachi's eyes, and Itachi in his, then that is eye contact and Tsukuyomi can be used. Eye contact is the act of looking one another in the eyes. Looking. As in seeing. Therefore, Itachi only needs to see his target's eyes, and the target, his. But again, it's a Mangekyo ability, I don't see Menma using his Mangekyo abilities just as I don't see Itachi using his so early in the fight due to the excessive usages can result in blindness and the pain and drainage coming from using it.

      War. I suppose he can use his telekinetic ability on the flames after they've been conjured. I don't see why he couldn't do that.

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    • tsukuyomi can ONLY be countered by an uchiha with a sharingan

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    • @Vinth123

      Are you sure? Itachi was still lying when he was talking to Sasuke before their fight.

      @JamesDuh

      I think his telekinesis only has a short range. What are your thoughts about the masked sages barrier technique?

      @Namikazenaruto9

      Ok, so you're saying Menma would overpower Itachi? Please give a rundown. Nothing too hectic, but would be nice to see your perspective of the fight.

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    • Ok,we're assuming that Itachi wins as Ninja of War hasn't given any statements to counter Tsukuyomi..

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    • HeroOfSacrifice wrote: Ok,we're assuming that Itachi wins as Ninja of War hasn't given any statements to counter Tsukuyomi..

      And have you given any arguments about how he will set up Tsukuyomi?
      @Ninja
      Let's be clear All of Itachi's Arsenal is useless in the light of Kamui. Amaterasu or Totsuka Blade will be in effective. Also Itachi's Attempt at regular Genjutsu should be overridden by Obito's Sharingan and Jinchuriki Status.
      Also I feel that Itachi can easily be forced into Susanoo or continuous movement once Menma Starts firing the Great Rasen-Ring which destroyed the village in the movie. We all know that eve if he survives That Attack, Menma can spam it for quite some time thanks to Full control over Kurama. Probably Either Itachi will die out chakra depletion or sheer fire-power.
      For Itachi to win his only option would be Tsukyuomi for which he need to be close quarters. This is very dangerous and my opinion very difficult to pull off. Not to mention Tsukuyomi can fail as there is very high chance Kurama can heal the damage(Since Tsunade too heals it within matter of minutes) or Menma kamuing out of dimension.

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    • Nami. I wouldn't say Itachi's arsenal is mostly useless. Genjutsu might stun him momentarily since he isn't immune to Genjutsu. Amaterasu can kill shot him if used in the right way. Totsuka Blade, how is that useless? It can seal him away and would be the main counter to a full Kurama form. And Tsukuyomi has time dilution. So Menma won't be Kamui'ing when he is in the Genjutsu. And Kurama can't heal him. It's not physical damage done. It's psychological. If Itachi can land Tsukuyomi, he can trap the target in a time diluted Genjutsu state where decades can pass inside it while in reality a few seconds passed. That's why Tsukuyomi is such a powerful ability. It can kill you through stress and with a single glance.

      But again. I don't see Itachi using his Mangekyo abilities early on in the fight. Nor do I see Menma using his or his Great Spiraling Ring. Why would any character use their most powerful and draining ability to start off with? That's something they would use when they needed to. Also there is no evidence Menma can spam Great Spiraling Ring. He was only able to use it once. He never did so again. Not even when he was up against the Akatsuki. Not even when he was against Naruto and losing. Not even against Kurama to help his Kurama out. I mean. If he could, why didn't Menma just float up to the sky, Great Spiral Ring Naruto and the Akatsuki, call it a day? Or why did he use the Spiral Ring against Rasenshuriken instead of the Great version? It's damage is partial Konoha, it didn't destroy the entire village like Pain's Shinra did.

      Also I can see if Menma used the Great Spiral, Itachi with his visual prowess and the ability to see the concentrated mass form of Chakra, will conjure his Susanoo and can use Yata Mirror to block it.

      Point is, Itachi isn't useless. He has ways he can counter just as Menma has ways to counter Itachi. I don't see either one of these individuals using the said abilities above so openly and carelessly though. It'd be a while into the fight before these trump cards are even played.

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    • HeroOfSacrifice wrote: Ok,we're assuming that Itachi wins as Ninja of War hasn't given any statements to counter Tsukuyomi..

      Really? Come on man, don't be like that. Rather join in the discussion.

      @JamesDuh

      I agree, they won't start off using their most powerful techniques. Could you comment on my previous post?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Vinth123

      Are you sure? Itachi was still lying when he was talking to Sasuke before their fight.

      Yeah I'm sure, even narutopedia says so.

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    • ^So you believe all of Itachi's statements?

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    • ^All,well,most of the statements Itachi said to Sasuke while their battle was lies.

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    • HeroOfSacrifice wrote: ^All,well,most of the statements Itachi said to Sasuke while their battle was lies.

      Weren't they more like half-truths or not lies.
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    • War. I really don't have an answer since I have no clue what the barrier does. Is it just a regular barrier that traps a target? Can it be easily broken? I can see the barrier in combination with the Shinigami's Scythe attacks being a deadly combination. I watched the movie, but I think I missed the part of when the barrier was used. I just can't gauge it's strength. Surely it must be a powerful one since it's made out of Kurama's Chakra right?

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    • Vinuth123 wrote: Yeah I'm sure, even narutopedia says so.

      The databooks (2nd or 3rd) says something similar. Though, considering that Kakashi countered it with a Shadowclone, i think it's more that straight up breaking it can only be done with a Sharingan.

      That being said, i don't see why other techniques won't be able to break it. E.g. someone else breaking it, riling your own chakra to break it, etc. It may have a high difficulty level associated with it, but so does something like Amaterasu.

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    • I just realized something. Menma has full Kurama. It is mentioned that that Kushina had Kurama extracted from her and placed inside Menma. How does that affect the fight?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: I just realized something. Menma has full Kurama. It is mentioned that that Kushina had Kurama extracted from her and placed inside Menma. How does that affect the fight?

      I haven't commented for the past few days,and I'm sorry about that. I have an illness.But I'm well now.

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    • War. I think Menma will be at a disadvantage in a titan fight. If he went full Kurama, Itachi will be forced to use Susanoo. His Susanoo comes equipped with Totsuka and Yata. Then we got the long range abilities he has. While Kurama has large reserves and Tailed Beast Bombs. Normally the Tailed Beast Bombs would be pretty deadly but Yata Mirror is such a strong counter for them that Itachi's Susanoo can probably tank each one even if Kurama spammed it. If Itachi can manage to hit Kurama with the tip of Totsuka he would win or if Kurama can just passively dodge until Itachi's reserves run out he would win, or if Kurama would even go about that route since he is so prideful and likes to fight close and personal.

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    • Aint no way Susanoo tanking a TBB. Susanoo with the Yata Mirror barely protected Itachi from Kirin. What makes you think it will protect him from a Tailed Beast Ball? If Kurama uses Continuous Tailed Beast Balls, it will be overkill. Not to mention Menma can spam the Spiraling Ring and Great Spiraling Ring.

      Kurama can fight from long Range while Menma fights from mid range. Itachi doesn't have the reserves to keep advancing Susanoo to the next stage over and over from recover from damage.

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    • Prince. First off, Yata did not block Kirin. Nothing can pretty much block it. It strikes in a single millisecond. Secondly, the Databook states for the Yata Mirror "to completely negate any attack, whether it be spiritual, or physical." Doesn't matter how strong the technique is, if it connects with the Yata Mirror it is negated. And again, there is no evidence that Menma can use multiple Great Spiraling Rings since he did not against Naruto even when losing. Nor did he against the Akatsuki. Nor did he when his Kurama was losing against Naruto's Kurama. All evidence points to him not being able to use it multiple times.

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    • @JamesDuh

      Well, I think due to the location Menma and Naruto were fighting in great spiraling rings would have not worked. Since Menma has instant access to Kurama's full power it's safe to say he can spam great spiraling rings.

      Kurama's one TBB would have annihilated the village, had Minato not warped it away. There is plenty evidence. Also, as the DP states, YM can only block from one direction and it's physically a shield.

      @Princeharris1993

      Good point of the double team with Menma and Kurama. Yeah, if Susanoo can be destroyed by Kirin, same would happen with TBB.

      Now, Kamui can extend to Kurama avatar right?

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    • War. The problem for me is that Menma has the ability to fly while others do not. When he was having trouble against the Akatsuki + Naruto, he should of just flew high up into the air and Great Spiraled Ring them all. This can be taken as Menma not being able to since he didn't when he should of and there are more instances when he should have. It's obviously a concentrated mass form of chakra so obviously has a huge Chakra depletion. Also, I should point out a Jinchuriki can't utilize all a Tailed Beast's Chakra, Naruto hasn't been shown capable of handling all of Kurama's Chakra all at once. He can only take in a specific amount. Notice when Kurama states Naruto will be able to recieve more than the first time. And a Tailed Beast Ball's overall damage varies. It also requires a large amount of charge up. In my opinion, there is no way Itachi will allow such a powerful mass of Chakra to be built. In all honestly, I can see him piercing the ball with Totsuka and just sealing it away before it is even released.

      YM still negates though? Doesn't matter if it's a one sided shield as long as it makes contact with a technique, it negates the technique. That's it's ability. Or are you nerfing it that far? If so, then you kind of nerfed Itachi extremely while buffing Menma extremely. I also do not think Menma will possess enough skill to wrap his entire Kurama into Kamui. He isn't Obito. And he hasn't had the technique for years like Kakashi. Unless you are giving prep time? Wait. Isn't this Obito's Kamui? The one that only works on himself and those in contact with him? If Kurama is conjured, how will Kamui extend to him when Menma has the power?

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    • TB can seal menma in one go.

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    • @JamesDuh

      I'll say it again, Menma has instant access to full Kurama's chakra since he lacks a seal. Naruto's seal regulated half Kurama's chakra.

      Now, considering the battle. Menma was fighting Naruto inside the training mountain for a time, no sense in blowing up the mountain you are fighting in. Moving on to the battle outside, if I recall correctly, Menma was after the scroll in Naruto's possession. Blowing them all up with a great spiraling ring would have been counterproductive, considering his objective.

      Menma's great spiraling ring contains a small amount of the total of Kurama's chakra, he can spam those. The charge up is what we saw in road to a ninja, is that considered long? Great spiraling rings =/= TBBs, Menma somehow can handle them with ease.

      TB traps it's victims in a genjutsu world. Meaning it only seals people/living things(with souls). It can't seal pure chakra or objects. The reason for the DP on the TB and YM is to avoid the head cannon and extreme speculation that always occur with those items. At least we can work with this DP.

      So, apparently Obito negated Kakashi's use of Kamui on the gedo statue. Logically, the only way he could do this is if he could cancel it out by using Kamui as well. So what are your thoughts?

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    • War. Naruto released the seal. That was why he could summoned Kurama himself if he needed to (according to the wiki). It's more about the vessel. Menma also destroyed most of Konoha. I don't think he cares much for the scroll since it could of been there lol. So if he was willing then, he was willing now. If he was losing the fights, there'd be no reason why he wouldn't use a technique that could kill them all in one go since he did so before just because.

      I also have a problem now. You have been nerfing Itachi heavily. While buffing Menma greatly. You gave him Kurama and Sharingan so he could break Genjutsu. You gave him Kamui to dodge Physical attacks. You gave him all of Kurama's reserves so he never drains. TB does not trap targets in Genjutsu. It traps targets in a genjutsu-/like/ world. It was stated to be able to seal "anyone and anything" by Orochimaru. Anything. This is starting to get incredibly one sided as you gave Menma abilities he does not have and nerfed Itachi heavily so he doesn't stand a chance.

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    • Healthy Itachi I think

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    • ^^ Agreed.

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    • @JamesDuh

      No, the seal is still present in Naruto, which is lacking in Menma. Nope, I haven't. I limited Menma in actual fact. Also, isn't it a bit late for you to be complaining about the DP lol?

      I didn't give Menma full Kurama, he already had that. What exactly about Itachi is nerfed? YM has shown inconsistencies when it didn't adapt to Orochimaru's snakes. Please, let's not go down this rabbit hole, it's not worth it. I can understand that you think I've nerfed Itachi, but when you truly think about it, you'll realize the DP makes a lot of sense.

      I already explained why I gave Menma those abilities, seems to me you are trying to craft a narrative here. Why is that?

      I honestly think this fight can go either way, but when users just jump on the Itachi bandwagon, for no reason other than "because he is Itachi", I feel I have to defend the other guy. More importantly, I made this thread to see if users would come up with rundowns of this fight, but alas, only a few have.

      @Quadraticequation

      Care to give a rundown?

      @HeroOfSacrifice

      No other comments or ideas?

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    • The problem is as I stated. Naruto removed the seal in chapter 570. Kurama was no longer contained. Naruto trusted Kurama at that point. Nothing suggests that Naruto's seal prevented him from receiving more Chakra from Nine Tails. Please provide a reference to where that was stated. And you have nerfed Itachi greatly. I wasn't referring to Yata Mirror. I was talking about TB. You limited it's capabilities to only living beings despite it being stated to seal anyone and anything. Both words were used separating the two from each other. That's a hardcore nerf. Then you buffed Menma to the point that he brushes Itachi off easily. I didn't have a problem before because it wasn't as bad. But you kept stacking it. Itachi can't use Genjutsu now since Menma can recognize Genjutsu and have Kurama break him free whenever. Itachi can't physically hit Menma since he has Kamui and from what you have shown, Obito's skill with it (referring to being able to utilize Kamui on an entire Kurama which would require tremendous skill). And you gave him the ability to separate from Kurama and spam Great Spiraling Rings while Kurama can use Tailed Beast Bombs from another direction. That's just too much of a buff and nerf. Itachi has no way of beating Menma except from Tsukuyomi which might not even work since Kurama is available. Itachi can't stop Great Spiral Rings now and Tailed Beast Balls. That is why I complaining. You gave Menma too much resources even resources he's never been shown to have. While limiting Itachi's abilities despite being stated to do more. The fight at this point is incredibly one sided.

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    • @Ninja of War

      I'm trying to understand your points and I do. I honestly think that Menma can win this since Menma has the sharingan there to break himself out of Tsukuyomi. Izanami takes a lot of prep. There's only one chance that Itachi can win. If he just gets contact with Menma and the tip of the sword,he will be sealed.

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    • you need to be an uchiha to break through tsukuyomi.

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    • @JamesDuh

      It's unfortunate that you feel that way, but the DP has remained unchanged from the start of this thread. I don't understand why you suddenly have a problem with it now.

      TB traps victims in a genjutsu world. You can't trap non-living things or pure chakra in a genjutsu world.

      Naruto's seal is still present, even after Naruto 'opened' it. Look at the markings when he is in TBM. What does that have to do with Menma though? I'm not sure how Black Kurama was placed inside Menma without a seal, but that's apparently what happened. Menma can summon Kurama like any other summoning. Why can't he and Kurama attack from different directions then?

      I think there is some miscommunication here. Are you understanding my points?

      @Hero and Vinuth

      I do think that Menma has a chance of breaking out of Tsukuyomi, but for the most part, Tsukuyomi would heavily damage Menma. That is why I suggested certain ways in that Menma could avoid Tsukuyomi.

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    • How can i start a thread such as this? im new here ^-^

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    • Can someone explain how Kakashi got out of Tsukuyomi when just an Uchiha of the same blood can free himself out of it? Even Tsukuyomi should be broken after someone gives you his chakra. Menmas spiral ball is way more destructive than any other jutsu Itachi has and since it is not the reanimated Itachi we are talking about won't he be able to use Susanoo for defense and attack that often. The Totsuka blade might work but good luck with hitting a Menma that has kamui and the kyubi freeing him from all genjutsu. The amaterasu might kill Menma though.

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    • War. Please refer to me in the Manga where it states it traps the individual in a Genjutsu world and not a Genjutsu-/like/ world. Genjutsu-like. Not actual Genjutsu, but like Genjutsu. It seals the target in a world. And again. It was stated to trap anyone and anything. Both words were used for a reason.

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    • It states in the wiki itself that it traps the individual in a genjutsu-like world. Go check the Sword of Totsuka page.

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    • That's exactly what I said? Why would I go check it if i state that. Genjutsu-like does not equal Genjutsu. It's just a world like Genjutsu.

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    • ^I said that to War.

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    • I amend my statement to genjutsu-like world then. But notice the choice of words. Similar to genjutsu world? So an illusion world only existing in your mind? I don't see it making a difference to my point though, please explain.

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    • Not an illusion world, but a world like an illusion. That's all that's stated. But notice the choice of words when it states to be able to seal /anyone/ and /anything/. If it can only seal those that can be placed in Genjutsu, why would it state anyone and anything, instead of just anyone?

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    • I am noticing the choice of words. It could have said sealed in a separate world, dimension or plane. Instead it states a genjutsu-like world. A world similar to an imaginary place only existing in the victim's mind. So yeah, only living things can be placed in such a world.

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    • I am also noticing a choice of words here. Anyone and anything. Explain that.

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    • Woah. This is still going?

      @James. You're wasting your time. @War only reads what he wants to read. Everything is irrelevant to him even if it's undeniable proof.

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    • @JamesDuh

      The problem here is, if you want to take statements like that literally, you have to take all of it literally. Yes, it says anyone and anything, but the genjutsu-like world part supersedes that part of the statement.

      @LoneNinja

      Again, please refrain from posting here if you don't have anything to add. Don't know what 'undeniable proof' you are talking about anyways.

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    • I agree with JamesDuh If the totsuka blade can't seal non-living objects that means that the victims clothes wold remain in the real world, which is impracticle.

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    • ^That's actually a good point, but TB actually hasn't sealed clothes. When used on Orochimaru, it only sealed his organic form. When used on Nagato it sealed the edo replication clothes, not actual clothes. But I do agree that it is not practical to leave clothes behind.

      Now, considering the DP, do all see how Kurama and Menma can attack Itachi from at least two fronts?

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    • LoneNinja wrote: Woah. This is still going?

      It's itachi. Of course it's still going. The guy runs on vague wording and unproven claims.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Now, considering the DP, do all see how Kurama and Menma can attack Itachi from at least two fronts?

      With susanoo in play, they can't!

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    • @War. Don't tell me what I can and can't do. Anyways. The guy literally shows undeniable proof that Totsuka can seal anything and you are completely ignoring it cause of why? "Genjutsu-like world"? That can mean anything. A world that is like an illusion, (like) an illusion. Not a illusion, but like one. It's not a world of illusions. And no, the statement doesn't supersede it. It's always the latter mentioned information that supersedes the prior.

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    • Vinuth123 wrote:

      With susanoo in play, they can't!

      Why though? Kurama can be summoned like any other summoning.

      Thekillman wrote:

      It's itachi. Of course it's still going. The guy runs on vague wording and unproven claims.

      Truth.

      @LoneNinja

      You don't seem to want a discussion, so why are you still posting here?

      Also, there is no proof of TB sealing anything. Just a contradictory statement. So wrong there lol. Genjutsu-like == imaginary. If it's not, please explain how genjutsu suddenly takes place the physical world.

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    • @War.

      Don't assume what I want. I speak only fact. When someone has something that is undeniably proof, you disregard it and try to change it or call it fake. It was stated in the Manga, and it was stated in the Databook. Nothing shown afterwards contradicts it, so therefore it is a fact. Genjutsu-like does not mean Genjutsu. If it did why did the writer put the word (like) in it? Your argument makes no sense. It can mean anything. A world like an illusion. A world made of Yin Release. Or more. You can't sit here and state what that sentence means. You are not the writer of the series. Genjutsu-like has various meanings. However, the statement states it can seal anyone and anything thus proves your theory wrong. If it was a world made of illusion they would of just called it a Genjutsu world. If it could only seal people, it would of just said anyone.

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    • I have to agree with Lone here. Just too many variables. I mean. Why was Orochimaru's eight headed snakes, stated to be his Chakra sealed with him? Why was Sasuke's Curse Mark sealed away? Why was Nagato sealed when he was just a soul and not the body? Why is Orochimaru still awake now if he's supposed to be trapped in a Genjutsu world? Heck. Why couldn't objects be sealed in a world like illusions? It's a world right? Why can't objects go to such a world?

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    • JamesDuh wrote: why is Orochimaru still awake now if he's supposed to be trapped in a Genjutsu world?

      I can answer that one: Orochimaru's revival is similar to Muu's fission jutsu. It's not that he was unsealed from totsuka, but rather that he was remade from another seal. He's essentially a clone, but given the terminology, it's better to say he's essentially a fission.

      The rest, we don't know. I think it's simply a retcon or some dropped idea for the story. If the Totsuka is so great, why not seal enemy attacks? Why throw Magatama at the Chibaku Tensei, why not just seal it? If yata's so great, why does he never use it? Why not block the sound and light of Kabuto's jutsu? Why take such risks?

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    • @Killman

      You're asking why something didn't happen while @James asked why something happened. Your questions are like me asking stuff like why didn't Kisame just use his giant water sphere against Gai, or why didn't Madara just spam Meteors until the war was over, or why couldn't Obito use Kamui as a Ten Tails Jinchuriki but Madara could, or why didn't Hagoromo just stop the war himself, or why Hinata doesn't have Tenseigan even though it's stated you just need to combine the Chakra's of Hyuga and Hamura's Descendants, etc. Your questions are about why something didn't happen, with many variables possibly being the answer. It's just not the same as asking why something happened.

      Totsuka showed it can seal Chakra when it sealed Orochimaru's Chakra Manifestation and techniques when it sealed the Curse Seal of Sasuke. It also sealed a spirit. So living beings aren't it's limitations since it's shown otherwise. It was stated to seal anything and been shown to seal anything. Until a statement is stated or it is shown, that it can only seal people, then it can seal anything because it was shown and stated to seal anything.

      Maybe not in this thread, but in the actual series it does.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: @War.

      I speak only fact. When someone has something that is undeniably proof, you disregard it and try to change it or call it fake.

      LOL. Nope, that is not proof. Statements don't equal 'undeniable proof'. Please don't create such narratives. You didn't speak fact there lol. Never did I call it fake, leave the pettiness behind man, it's not worth it.

      Databooks are unreliable. Until we see a feat, statements are only statements. Don't disregard my interpretation you don't know what the author meant lol. What I do know, is if the author wanted to be clear that the TB seals the target into a separate physical world, he would have said so.

      Furthermore, my interpretation makes sense since I'm including the entire statement. I'm not leaving any part out, like some are. Adding to the statement of the genjutsu-like world, I believe the words, " drunken dreams" follow on. The reference to genjutsu is quite obvious.

      @JamesDuh

      Orochimaru's technique was a phyiscal transformation, not chakra. Sasuke's curse mark disappeared due to Orochimaru reabsorbing his sage chakra and using the curse seal as a medium to restore his body. Edo Nagato can still be affected by genjutsu. Let me ask you, how do you trap a non-living object in a genjutsu?

      Breaking it down further, how do you trap a non-living object in it's own mind?

      One step further, how do you trap a non-living object in something like it's own mind with your chakra disrupting it?

      Do you see where the problem is?

      This is all remedied, if you take the TB sealing living individuals only(with souls, cloths and chakra for practicality).

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    • LoneNinja wrote: You're asking why something didn't happen while @James asked why something happened.

      uh. I answered his question regarding orochimaru.

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Your questions are like me asking stuff like why didn't Kisame just use his giant water sphere against Gai, or why didn't Madara just spam Meteors until the war was over, or why couldn't Obito use Kamui as a Ten Tails Jinchuriki but Madara could, or why didn't Hagoromo just stop the war himself, or why Hinata doesn't have Tenseigan even though it's stated you just need to combine the Chakra's of Hyuga and Hamura's Descendants, etc. Your questions are about why something didn't happen, with many variables possibly being the answer. It's just not the same as asking why something happened.

      he already had a ton of water present so no need to make more. Madara was just playing with jutsu, he made that clear, it wasn't until Naruto and Sasuke were dangerously close to defeating him with SP powers that he got serious, distracted them and cast IT. Obito couldn't partially Kamui the Juubi, but Madara transported himself entirely. Hagoromo was just a spirit, he couldn't interact with the world, Obito had to possess kakashi just to use his power. Hinata doesn't have tenseigan because she's missing the flesh, same as why Naruto doesn't have Rinnegan despite getting some Hagoromo chakra (chakra by itself has NEVER given new powers).

      LoneNinja wrote:

      Your questions are about why something didn't happen, with many variables possibly being the answer. It's just not the same as asking why something happened.

      The difference is that if Totsuka can seal ANYTHING, why did Itachi ever put himself at risk? There's no risk to Totsuka or Yata, yet there's considerable risk in betting that nuking the CT would destroy it, or guessing that Kabuto would go for Sasuke. Why didn't he just seal Obito them, and prevent all this pain and suffering? Why not seal the Biju and die at Sasuke's hands, permanently preventing the plan from coming in effect?

      The simple answer is that it clearly doesn't work that way. Itachi himself said "every jutsu has a weakness" pretty much all the time. Totsuka can't both seal people in a drunken genjutsu world AND seal everything. And if Yata can block anything, why is it's only feat that it blocked a few kunai?

      Databooks have exaggerated before. Made mistakes before. Story elements have been outright retconned (Like Shukaku being a Sand Priest). I don't see why people insist Totsuka and Yata work like the Databook says, when the Manga suggests it doesn't? wouldn't be the first databook mistake or retcon. it reeks to me of dropped story ideas, not facts.

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