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  • It states that if the user does not have prerequisite abilities for said jutsu, then they cannot perform it. Such as kekkai genkai or natures they haven't learned to perform, but if they copying the hand seals aren't they learning to perform that jutsu? What is the point of that example?

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    • Madara copied Hashirama's wood release abilities. Yet, since he doesn't have wood release, he is physically incapable of using it. Once he acquired Wood Release, he was able to use these techniques.

      Simply put, i can teach you to fire a gun, but if you don't have a gun, then you can't fire it. You know how, but lack the physical capability to do so.

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    • Well I mean yea, he couldn't use the kekkai genkai, but on the article it says they can't perform a nature releas- oh I are they still refering to kekkai genkais?

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    • I'm just confused if whether it's actually nature transformations that they haven't mastered yet or not having the necessary chakra lvlv, or is it actually nature transformations they haven't learned to perform. Though it doesnt make sense to me as sarada performed lightning release from Buntan but showed no prior training for that

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    • Kingomanoki wrote: I'm just confused if whether it's actually nature transformations that they haven't mastered yet or not having the necessary chakra lvlv, or is it actually nature transformations they haven't learned to perform.

      If they can copy the jutsu, they can copy how to perform the nature release. As long as the user has the theoretical capability to perform the jutsu, they can.

      Kakashi can't do Rasenshuriken because he either lacks the skill or the chakra. Since he doesn't seem to use wind release a lot, it's probably both. He can't do Ice Release because he lacks ice release. Madara couldn't do Wood Release because he lacked Wood Release, but upon gaining it could perform the jutsu.

      So if Sarada had the ability to easily use Lightning release, then even if she didn't know it she could copy it easily. Remember that hand seals make performing jutsu easier. Sasuke did Fire Release:Fireball jutsu without apparent teaching of Fire Release, just the hand seals. Therefore, if Sarada learned the hand seals to a lightning jutsu, she could perform it.

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    • There was the problem that the Rasenshuriken would hurt him if he used it....

      Given that the Sharingan can see the flow of chakra and copy any movement and what not i dont see why it wouldnt be able to copy jutsu of an unmastered nature. The reason nature transformation is hard is because it requires the person to figure out how to manipulate their chakra, but the Sharingan sees all that, sooooo it should be capable of copying whatever it sees so long as its not KKG or tool reliant.

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    • I don't get what's so difficult about this. Sharingan copying non-kekkei genkai nature transformation jutsu is a bit like copying taijutsu. Sure, the Sharingan can copy the movements, but if the Sharingan wielder doesn't have the body skill to perform at the same level, there's significant strain and they can't perform the taijutsu quite the same way. Sasuke had some issue with it in early part I when copying Lee's taijutsu. With nature transformation jutsu, sure, you can copy and understand how the jutsu works, but if you don't have the skill with the nature transformation, it won't work. Knowing how to perform a jutsu and actually doing it are different things. Even after Naruto learned from Asuma how to better use wind chakra, it still took him time to actually perform it. For another comparison, think of it like chakra control. Trying to use a nature you haven't trained in is a bit like having poor chakra control, you end up using more chakra than you need, for a weaker effect. If Sharingan could simply just copy every non-kekkei genkai nature transformation jutsu, then every Uchiha who ever awakened the Sharingan should have no excuse for now knowing jutsu for the five nature transformations just from watching someone else doing it.

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    • But Sasuke did copy Lee's taijutsu, with an incomplete Sharingan mind you. He may have not been able to do it as fast but he still did it with like, no practice. Chakra reserves seem like the only real limitation. The manga says it can copy anythig it sees but never stated the user cant copy am unknown transformation.

      Who is to say the Uchiha don't know a few jutsu per nature transformation. As we have seen with Kakashi, characters have a certain transformation they specialize and prefer over others.

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    • Nope. He copied it, and used it, but he struggled with it at first. He had to focus on taijutsu training to make proper use of it, to use it at least as good as Lee was with it. When Lee saw Sasuke in his fight with Gaara, he was impressed at how in one month or so Sasuke's taijutsu training allowed him to use what he copied more effectively.

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    • Where did he show that he struggled when using the copyed taijutsu move, and yea kakashi has access to all 5 natured, and that's obviously because of sharingan

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    • I was talking about Shadow of the Dancing Leaf. Sasuke used that no practice. Following this logic, the worst that would happen to a Sharingan user copying ninjitsu would be failure due to lack of sufficient chakra.

      The only thing Sasuke's training did was increase his speed, the motions themselves would be essentially the same, just at a slower speed.

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    • Kingomanoki wrote: Where did he show that he struggled when using the copyed taijutsu move, and yea kakashi has access to all 5 natured, and that's obviously because of sharingan

      Go back and reread the end of Sasuke's fight with Yoroi early the Chunin Exams arc. Sasuke is forced to rely on taijutsu so as not to trigger the cursed seal. He uses the taijutsu he copied from Lee. Just after Sasuke is declared winner, he feels quite some pain from strain of using Lee's move, as Sasuke lacks the same taijutsu training. Having watched the fight, Guy also ponders to himself that even having copied it with the Sharingan, it's not something one just performs with no issue.

      Prove that Kakashi has access to all five specifically because of the Sharingan. He was already a prodigy before getting the Sharingan, and after getting it, it's not like he could spam it, too chakra taxing for him to whip it out for everything. If he was simply so good then, why did Naruto have to go to Asuma for advice on wind nature transformation if Kakashi was right there and could use it too? If Kakashi was any good with Wind Release, he'd have been able to advice Naruto himself.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Prove that Kakashi has access to all five specifically because of the Sharingan.

      To add to this, even Sasuke had to train in Lightning Release. Yet he performed Fireball with knowing apparently only the seals, pre-sharingan. Clearly the sharingan doesn't make you equally capable at every nature transform. It's still a tool, one that needs skill to be wielded. And while it makes a lot of skill requirements softer (e.g it makes jutsu easier to understand and learn), it doesn't make them all equivalent.

      Kakashi clearly favored Lightning Release followed by Earth and Water. Sasuke clearly favored Lightning and Fire. I think it's clear that the user's skill still counts.

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    • Sasuke was in pain because of the curse mark not the taijutsu.

      The only nature Kakshi confirmed to learn himself was lightning and he said most jonin know 2. Sending Naruto to Asuma actually makes it more likely that Kakashi learned wind via the Sharingan because he would have bypassed most of the learning process while Asuma would have first hand experience learning it like a normal person and could explain it better.

      Sasuke and lightning release could easily have been a stamina issue or because his Sharingan was incomplete. but he learned the fireball jutsu at a very young age. He didnt "just know the seals"

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    • Training for different elements takes time, and kakashi Isn't that old. HE showed access to fire, water, and wind after he acquired sharingan.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Sasuke was in pain because of the curse mark not the taijutsu.

      Go read chapter 68. When Sasuke feels the pain, he immediately thinks of the taijutsu he just used, and then Guy makes a mental note of it as well. That's the focus of two pages.

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    • But gai was talking about leaf shadow technique,lee says that he mastered the techniqye and when sasuke was feeling pain he alreadu had his chakra absirbed and had to shake off curse mark

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    • And shadow leaf is the taijutsu Sasuke copied, modified, and got strained by. Not once in those pages Sasuke or anyone mentions anything about the cursed seal, only the taijutsu. It's basic reading comprehension.

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    • That's not what I'm saying, he was already drained anywat, since he had to deal with curse Mark involuntarily activating and straining him so of course he couldnt use that move a lot

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    • LegionZero wrote: but he learned the fireball jutsu at a very young age. He didnt "just know the seals"

      I know. I meant that Sasuke wasn't shown or implied to have been taught Fire Release specifically. Rather, it seems to me that the seals in part ensure the nature transform. Similar to how the Alliance could use Earth Release through a low-level jutsu by knowing the hand seals. Ergo, learning releases isn't necessarily that hard. But as shown with Naruto, using them on a large scale is hard.

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    • Excepr Sasuke's dad tought him as child which took him a week to learn and after his first successful fireball was barely standing. Sasuke didnt have fire release down because he knew the seals he had it down because he learned fire release.

      Naruto used clones to turn days of training into the equivilent of0 months with shadow clones so how is thats irrelevent.

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    • LegionZero wrote: The only nature Kakshi confirmed to learn himself was lightning and he said most jonin know 2.

      Kakashi had Earth Release before even the academy. He always had the capacity to learn other techniques. His Sharingan just showed him exactly how to perform the technique. If he himself was skilled enough to replicate it, then he could do it. Being the prodigy that he was, most techniques he could copy as soon as he saw it.

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    • Kingomanoki wrote: That's not what I'm saying, he was already drained anywat, since he had to deal with curse Mark involuntarily activating and straining him so of course he couldnt use that move a lot

      The seal didn't strain him because he was able to make it recede on his own. Once again, for two pages after Sasuke got in pain, all they focused on was the taijutsu. If you wish to remain ignorant and forego basic logic, be my guest, I won't waste any more time on you.

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    • Asian Reaper: what chapter was this did Kakashi use Earth release in the acadamy?

      Omni: Sasuke was talking about how the curse mark was sending waves of pain throughout his body before he fought Yoroi. After losing all his chakra and fighting the curse marks control, you are telling me that didnt do anything to to cause him pain? Also no one ever said the Dancing Leaf Shadow would cause any kind of bodily stress, everyone was just impressed that he manage to successfully pull it off. It doesnt even require Gates to be open so why would it cause bodily stress?

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    • </div> The seal didn't strain him because he was able to make it recede on his own. Once again, for two pages after Sasuke got in pain, all they focused on was the taijutsu. If you wish to remain ignorant and forego basic logic, be my guest, I won't waste any more time on you. </div>

      I'm not being ignorant, i'm being logical. He obviously was experiencing pain, did you not see him cough up blood or are you being too much of an ass? This was a question and discussion, there's no need for you to comment insults for your own personal whim, try using basic logic like you said.

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    • I LOVE how noobs ask a question, but once they get an answer that they personally don't like, they suddenly turn into the more knowledgeable ones and start to lecture others.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I LOVE how noobs ask a question, but once they get an answer that they personally don't like, they suddenly turn into the more knowledgeable ones and start to lecture others.

      I find it more interesting that people use "logic" as a synonym for "my version of the truth".

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    • Technically, that's what logic is. There is no universally objective logic, only subjective assertions of certain things being correct and true according to an individual's own moral standing and knowledge.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Technically, that's what logic is. There is no universally objective logic, only subjective assertions of certain things being correct and true according to an individual's own moral standing and knowledge.

      Logic is merely a means. If A=B and B=C then it follows that C=A. Logic says nothing about whether this is actual truth.

      I can say "all apples are green" and "Apple is a fruit" therefore "some fruits are green". it's logical, even though it's wrong.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I LOVE how noobs ask a question, but once they get an answer that they personally don't like, they suddenly turn into the more knowledgeable ones and start to lecture others.

      I'm just questioning his answer as I don't understand it, do you have something to bring to the table? Also, i'm not lecturing anything but just saying that this is a discussion, I don't intend to get into petty arguments. Though I also would like to mention that I was already satisfied with killman's answer, but this turned into a completely different argument about did sasuke feel pain or not

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    • First, does everyone possess the ability to use any nature as long as it isn't Kekkei Genkai (For example, can an Academy Student with a Fire Release Affinity, learn how to use Water Release if he is trained under it)? If so, then next question.

      Second, are hand signs the way a Shinobi manipulates their Chakra? If so, then next question.

      If anyone has the capacity to learn any nature minus Kekkei Genkai, and they can perform the Hand Signs necessary to perform a Jutsu as long as they have the necessary Chakra to do so, that would mean that a Sharingan User can indeed, copy any jutsu they see, right?

      Of course, just cause they know how to do what is required, doesn't mean they possess the skill to do it. For example, you see someone do a back flip. You seen everything that went into it, but you might need to practice before you can do it. You just don't magically become flexible to do it. The same can be said with Hand Signs. You might have seen a hand sign and memorized it, but you would have to practice how to make the Hand Sign or else it might not turn out right. Your hands might hurt from the strain as well since they aren't used to the positioning. It's like looking at Hand Signs on this very wiki. You see them, you know how they are done, but you might not be able to make them perfectly.

      If you state no to any of the questions above, then your answer is simply, Sharingan cannot copy any jutsu then.

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    • Yes. And kind of. From what is shown hand signs are used to manipulate chakra but tgere is a bit more nuance to nature transformation. Naruto required a lot if training to perfect it, but the war implies that a simple enough jutsu requires just knowing the hand seals and a basic understanding/skill of nature transformation.

      Even jutsu of the same nature transformation requires a lot of practice though. Naruto got the Wind Rasengan fairly quickly but the Rasenshuriken wasnt complete/mastered for some time. Then fast forward to Sarada with 1 tomoe per eye copying a bunch of lightning techniques that were supposedly sword exclusive.

      Given that the Sharingan can see/record/copy all the body movements and it can see chakra flow as well there isnt a reason it shouldnt be able to record and copy that as well. The only restriction should be chakra reserves.

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    • @Legion.

      "Given that the Sharingan can see/record/copy all the body movements" As I said. Just because your Sharingan has it recorded and memorized, doesn't mean you can do it perfectly. The Sharingan isn't performing the Jutsu, you are. As I said. It's like going to look at Hand Signs on this very site. I can show you a picture of how to perform the Tiger Hand Sign. But chances are without practice you won't be able to perfectly wield that hand sign even while looking directly at the picture of the Hand Sign.

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    • The Sharingan can allow the user to copy any movement it sees as well. It may not always be to the same scale but it can. Anyone out of the acadamy knows the 12 basic handsigns.

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    • "The Sharingan can allow the user to copy any movement it sees as well." That isn't stated. Please provide a reference as to where it states it allows the user to copy physical abilities. Cause I see "Although a Sharingan user can see these things, they also need the physical ability to actually act on the visual information."

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    • Sasuke copied Shadow of the Dancing Leaf. A move stated to require intense training to do correctly and Sasuke did it perfectly in the first try.

      That particlular quote you are referencing has to do with reaction not copying. As again Sasuke couldnt react to Lee and his Dancing Shadow but mimiced it.

      Also Madara was able to use perfect wood clones evem though had zero experience with.

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    • @Legion

      I said to provide me a reference of where it stated it. That isn't a statement saying it allows the user to copy and perform whatever it sees. Sasuke did not copy Shadow entirely, he edited and performed it his way thus why he said "It's all original moving forward" after kicking the opponent into the air. He also did not perform it perfectly lol. Not with his curse mark activating, so why you making things up?

      "Also Madara was able to use perfect wood clones evem though had zero experience with." Lol, don't use a god as a reference. LOL. Madara is overpowered as hell. His Sharingan is nothing like any others. He can discern Shadow Clones and the real person ffs.

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    • Dancing Leaf Shadow is the part where the user floats behind the airborn enemy. He copied it flawlessly. Guy even remarks how impressive it is that he was able to use it as well he did. Even when fighting the curse mark he had Dancing Leaf Shadow down. Chapter 68

      Regardless of how OP Madara is he did it. He copied a technique perfectly without practice or without ever using wood release beforehand.

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    • "He copied it flawlessly." Again. No he didn't. Curse Mark ensured that.

      "Guy even remarks how impressive it is that he was able to use it as well he did." Gai also stated "Even with the Sharingan, it's not something that can be perfected that quickly" which goes to show that not everyone with a Sharingan can do what Sasuke did and states that Sharingan user's would need time before they can do it perfectly thus require practice, proving my point. Sasuke wasn't even able to copy the entire move, he was only able to barely perform a piece of the technique Lee performed. "You were able to copy /part/ of my t-"

      "Regardless of how OP Madara is he did it. He copied a technique perfectly without practice or without ever using wood release beforehand." yes he did. Your point? Just cause Madara can do it, anyone can? It doesn't work like that. Madara can also discern Shadow Clones, so that means all Uchiha can right? He can also summon Meteors from the sky, that means all Uchihas can right?

      The fact that you still haven't provided a reference to the Sharingan being able to copy and allow the user to perform anything they see, proves you wrong. Sharingan can copy and memorize. But it does not give the user the physical capability of performing the action. If it did, it would be able to use Kekkei Genkai.

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    • How are goimg to quote Guy saying Sasuke perfected something but say Sasuke didnt use it perfectly? Cmon.

      Anyone with Susanoo+Rinnegan can summon meteors. Madara was as good as he was through experience, and notging says that an Uchiha with the same amount of battle experience cant see through Shadow Clones or perform fire jutsu on the same level as him. From what the series has shown us, no one thus far had mastered the Sharingan to the extent that he did.

      Chapter 12 and 26 state that it can copy the jutsu it sees with the only exception being KKG. So long as the user has the potential to use an element they can perform the jutsu it sees. Madara showed that, and since all ninja have the potential to use any basic nature, then can any basic nature technique can be copied.

      Komahamaru also explained to Sarad that it can copy most jutsu, the only exception being high level jutsu (which may be referring to just her because she is young and inexperienced) and special jutsu(KKG/special weapon jutsu/summoning etc.)

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    • Thekillman wrote: Madara copied Hashirama's wood release abilities. Yet, since he doesn't have wood release, he is physically incapable of using it. Once he acquired Wood Release, he was able to use these techniques.

      Simply put, i can teach you to fire a gun, but if you don't have a gun, then you can't fire it. You know how, but lack the physical capability to do so.

      In exact,Madara took some of Hashirama's chakra. Kakashi has a reason for the nickname,'Kakashi,the copy ninja.' He copied Zabuza's jutsu.

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    • LoneNinja
      LoneNinja removed this reply because:
      Need to redo argument.
      19:41, February 9, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • All I have to say at this point is "Even with the Sharingan, it's not something that can be perfected that quickly". A Reference you used, Gai, said the Sharingan doesn't allow you to perform techniques instantly. Good game.

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    • Yet Sasuke did it first try. So Gai wasnt referring to the Sharingans inability to copy it he was referring to the grueling physical conditioning needed to pull it off. He explained this within those same pages. Normally it would take immense practice and training. Since Sasuke had the conditioning already he didnt need to practice because of the Sharingans copy abilities.

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    • @Legion

      "Even with the Sharingan" It's not saying what you are saying it says. It is saying it's not something anyone can do even with the Sharingan.

      It seems to me, you are trying to give Sharingan user's the ability to copy any jutsu they see minus Kekkei Genkai. Yet, only Kakashi was known as the copy cat ninja, and some Uchiha have had there Sharingan longer. Heck, if the Sharingan allows you to copy everything, why didn't Izuna use Flying Raijin? Or why was the war between Senju vs Uchiha so close, when Uchiha would have the ability to copy every ability they had besides Hashiramas. Why aren't the Uchiha's regarded even more so for being able to use all 5 natures or even jutsu itself without effort? Why didn't Sasuke just copy Karin's and Suigetsu's abilities and move on without them? Why didn't Sasuke just copy Naruto's Rasengan as Genin when he seen it was more powerful than his Chidori? No logic behind the statement.

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    • Gai literally explained what he meant in the same panel. Everyone attributed his execution of it to the Sharingan.


      Izuna didnt use FTG because it requires a special seal.

      Sasuke doesnt copy Naruto's moves because he prefers his own and thinks Naruto's moveset represents weakness. He said so in VOTE2.

      Saradas incomplete Sharingan copied Borutos Shadow Colne jutsu after seeing it just once, sooooo....

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    • @Legion "Yet, only Kakashi was known as the copy cat ninja, and some Uchiha have had there Sharingan longer." Why wasn't any of the Uchiha regarded as copy cat ninjas? "why was the war between Senju vs Uchiha so close, when Uchiha would have the ability to copy every ability they had besides Hashiramas. Why aren't the Uchiha's regarded even more so for being able to use all 5 natures or even jutsu itself without effort? Why didn't Sasuke just copy Karin's and Suigetsu's abilities and move on without them?" Don't neglect the questions that make your theory flawed now.

      You don't gain the physical ability to perform every technique watching with the Sharingan. It has been stated many times in the series. It's literally the entire argument for it not being able to copy Kekkei Genkai. All I see are bull excuses.

      "Saradas incomplete Sharingan copied Borutos Shadow Colne jutsu after seeing it just once, sooooo...." Obviously she possessed the skills necessary to do it. So....

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    • Despite having copied over a thousand jutsu Kakashi sticks mostly to Raikiri and its varients because his entire fighting style is based around that. Likewise, the Uchiha had their own unique fighting style that they knew best. In all reality we only know how Tobirama/Hashirama and Izuna/Madara performed against eachother in combat. Both Senju had unique Jutsu that either required a pre-req or was a KKG. This silly argument can be applied to Naruto and why he only used Rasengan varuents even though SPSM gave him fundamental understanding of chakra and he had 9 tailed Beasts with various elements/attacks that he never used. Either way part of the reason the Sharingan is so coveted is because of its copy abilities

      Sasuke didnt copy Suigetsu's abilities because they conflicted with his fighting style, made him vulnerable to his own main element, and would hamper his other element. Some of Karin's moveset was relient on her Uzumaki traits. There is also strength in numbers. There are numerous occasions when Sasuke would have died had he been alone.

      Sasuke and Sarada have perfectly copied techniques they had only ever seen once and never preacticed beforehand. It is stated multiple times in the series that it can copy whatever it sees. The only exceptions specifically noted have been KKG or techniques that require specific items/contracts. It was never stated to be unable to copy jutsu of a nature the user hasnt mastered/unlocked. In fact Madara showed us the opposite by just having the potential to use wood release he was busting out jutsu he had only ever seen.

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    • You are talking about the Sharingan itself. I am talking about the user of the Sharingan. The user can have his Sharingan copy a jutsu, yes. But without the physical ability to perform said jutsu, the user won't be able to use the jutsu. Again, this is LITERALLY THE REASON the user's can't copy Kekkei Genkai. They can copy it with their Sharingan, but they don't have the ability to perform it.

      "why was the war between Senju vs Uchiha so close, when Uchiha would have the ability to copy every ability they had besides Hashiramas. Why aren't the Uchiha's regarded even more so for being able to use all 5 natures or even jutsu itself without effort?" Still have these to answer.

      "Sasuke didnt copy Suigetsu's abilities because" I'm calling bs. Hydri is an op jutsu, even Sasuke called it powerful, yet he didn't copy it. And turning to liquid to avoid attacks does not conflict with his lightning since he wouldn't be using lightning when he used it. Mind's Eye of the Kagura as well is a pretty powerful technique. Even the Nara, Akimichi, and Ino clans abilities that he has witnessed, he didn't copy. The Eight Gates and various other powerful techniques. Your argument here is flawed for one very reason, Sasuke was seeking power. If he had the ability to copy all these powerful jutsu that would of only benefited him in killing ztachi, why didn't he? He was a kid in a free candy store, hungry for candy, yet didn't eat any? Bs.

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    • the user is able to copy almost any jutsu they see, memorising ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu with near-perfect accuracy. They can then either perform that jutsu or modify it to suit their needs, as when Sasuke Uchiha bases his Lion Combo on Rock Lee's Front Lotus. Again, Sharingan users need the prerequisite abilities before they can mimic a jutsu they have seen, and for that reason they cannot, for example, reproduce kekkei genkai abilities they do not have or nature transformations they haven't learned to perform.

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    • Mind's eye of Kaguya, hydrification technique and eight gates, don't use hand signs to activate those jutsu. That could also be a factor.

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    • Idk why u keep bringing up kkg. I am talking about the 5 basic natures and techniques open to everyone. Since the Sharingan sees chakra flow and how it is manipulated and allows the user to perfectly mimic what it sees then they can mold the chakra to match the technique they see. In Boruto episode 24, Konahamaru explains that it can see the structure of a jutsu and copy it and make it the users own. His list of exceptions does not include previously unmastered natures. Sarada then busts out a shadow clone simply because she seen it with her Sharingan.

      Being able to use any nature transformation comes with the "can copy any jutsu". The Senju were also the clan of a thousand jutsu so their arsenal was diverse enough to keep up with whatever the Uchiha had. Tobirama and Hashirama have all 7 Nature transformations but they arent especially noted for it.

      Hydro is so OP that any lightning jutsu counter results in instant K.O. it also requires constant hydration and Sasuke isnt one to carry anything on him but the bare necessities. Sasuke never saw any of the Konoha 11's hiden. He was passed oit during all of the Chunin exam prelims and was late for his fight.

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    • @Legion

      "the user is able to copy almost any jutsu they see, memorising ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu with near-perfect accuracy. They can then either perform that jutsu or modify it to suit their needs" I don't even know why I argue with you when this is the description of Sharingan. If a Sharingan user can just copy any jutsu they see, they wouldn't need to modify it.

      "allows the user to perfectly mimic" Doesn't do that. Stop trying to give an overpowered move to an already overpowered Jutsu.

      "The Senju were also the clan of a thousand jutsu so their arsenal was diverse enough to keep up with whatever the Uchiha had." Wrong. If the Senju had that much, Uchiha by your logic, would of just copied it all so that point is mute.

      And on the KKG, it's because it's the best argument in this case. Why can't the Sharingan reproduce Kekkei Genkai? Cause the Sharingan does not give the user the physical ability to do every jutsu it sees.

      You seem to think the Sharingan just takes over your body and lets you do a jutsu. It doesn't work that way. It records everything it sees and you memorize it. Kakashi is able to perform his copied Ninjutsu without the Sharingan. Sometimes, yes, you don't need to train cause you possess the skills necessary to perform techniques. But other times you do need to practice, just like Lee's entire move that involved Dancing Leaf Shadow. Sasuke was only able to produce a part of the entire technique. Not the entire one even though he witnessed it. And even doing that, seemed to baffle Gai, who still believed he needed to train before being able to do it.

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    • LoneNinja wrote: "The Senju were also the clan of a thousand jutsu so their arsenal was diverse enough to keep up with whatever the Uchiha had." Wrong. If the Senju had that much, Uchiha by your logic, would of just copied it all so that point is mute.

      Actually the implication is that yes, their arsenal was big enough that the Uchiha couldn't copy it all. The Senju simply didn't specialize in any style of jutsu, so if a certain uchiha would face a different Senju, they would have to analyze it all from scratch. Contrast clans like the Ino-Shika-Cho where the clans all use similar jutsu, or the Uchiha themselves (genjutsu and fire jutsu, mostly). Or, say, the Sarutobi clan and their fire jutsu.

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    • @Killman

      Not really. Seeing how they fought in group battles since it was a war, after each battle, the Uchiha would've by Legion's logic, copied it all. Especially since they were battling since Indra vs Asura.

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    • Kkg is a bad example because only some people have the potential to use it. The 7 basic natures can be learned and used by anyone, therefore can be copied.

      Even if the Uchiha copied the techniques it doesnt mean they automatically win fights. There is also the techniques that require specific items.

      Copied techniques also arent necissarily as powerful. Best example would be Shairingan copying a professional weight lifter. If the Sharigan user is physically weaker, he/she can still copy all the proper form and technique but just wouldnt be able to lift as much weight. This is shown when Sasuke copied Dancing Leaf Shadow but wasnt as fast as Lee until his fight with Gaara.

      You keep ignoring every part of the series that states it copies anything it sees. Even the most up to date parts of the series backs this. You also ignore the part of Gai's quote where he says using even part of the Front Lotus is impossible without grueling training, something Sasuke didnt go through.

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    • 5 Natures*

      I never once said it didn't copy everything it sees. Just you can't always do the copied jutsu. The reason it can't copy Kekkei Genkai is that the user does not have the physical ability to perform it. That is stated in the Databook. Kishimoto > You. Enough said.

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    • 7 natures. 5 basic natures, yin, and yang.

      Chapter 68, Chapter 577, and Boruto episode 24(the ladder 2 being the two more recent references) prove that a character only needs the potential to perform an ability.

      The wiki doesnt even have reference for the claim that a Sharingan user needs to already know a nature release to perform a jutsu of said release. And it directly refutes the manga. Kishimoto>the wiki

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    • I never stated nor argued that you need to know a nature release. I only stated, you can't use a copied jutsu if you do not possess the physical ability to perform that said jutsu.

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    • I was arguing that it allows the user to copy techniques and natures they have zero experience in.

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    • Though it can't copy Kekkei Genkai. ^

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    • LoneNinja wrote: I never stated nor argued that you need to know a nature release. I only stated, you can't use a copied jutsu if you do not possess the physical ability to perform that said jutsu.

      I think there's a misunderstanding here.

      The Sharingan can analyze anything it sees, and through analysis, copy it. That doesn't mean that the user can perform it. Madara had copied pretty much all of Hashirama's jutsu, but it wasn't until he had acquired Wood Release that he could use them.

      The notion of the Sharingan as a copy eye (even though it's in the name) is a wrong one. It's not that it automatically copies things, but rather that it analyzes what it sees and gives virtually perfect memory, so that even decades later the technique can be used the moment it is accessible.

      Similarly, Sasuke copied Lee's movies, but it wasn't until he had trained physically that he could really do them.

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    • @Naruto10647: that has already been established multiple times in this forum

      TheKillman: Except he pulled off Dancing Leaf Shadow without practice.

      Sarada used shadow clones without practice.

      Madara pulled off wood clones without practice.

      Konohamaru explains that it analyzes and copies. There are multiple instances of instant copying or copying without practice.

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    • @Killman

      Legion seems to think that it grants the physical ability to perform the jutsu. I've been trying to tell him it doesn't, another example would be Sasuke needing to train to obtain Lee's speed even though he seen it. When in truth he should of been able to copy that speed according to Legion's theory.

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    • Thats not what i am saying. Physical stats cant be copied. Form and technique can be copied, which is why Sasuke was able to use Dancing Leaf Shadow but wasnt as fast as Lee until his fight with Gaara.

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    • As long as you aren't saying they can reproduce physical abilities, you're fine.

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    • I made an edit to an earlier post that you probably missed because you replied while i was typing it but i made an analogy with a professional weight lifter.

      If a Sharingan user saw the weight lifter doing a dead lift, he would be able to copy the weight lifter's form and technique but wouldnt be able to pick up the same weight as the lifter.

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    • I think you two are misunderstanding each other's points.

      LegionZero wrote: There are multiple instances of instant copying or copying without practice.

      All that is needed is a theoretical capability to do it. Simply put:

      -1: have i analyzed the technique completely

      -2: have i got the skill to pull it off?

      -3: have i got the dependancies (e.g. weapons, bombs

      -4: have i got the KKG, if applicable?

      So:

      -Madara saw Hashirama's wood clones to the point he could tell which one was real

      -Madara has the Rinnegan, so he has considerable power over chakra and jutsu

      -Madara had obtained Wood Release

      Therefore, he could use Wood Clones.

      On the other hand:

      -Sasuke saw Chidori

      -Sasuke didn't know Lightning Release

      -Apparently the seals for Chidori aren't there for the Lightning Release

      -Sasuke couldn't copy chidori.

      On the other hand:

      -during the 4th war, everyone was shown the seals for Practice Brick and could use Earth Release that way, indicating that hand seals can be used for the Release part as well.

      -This implies the seals used for Chidori aren't there for the elemental part, but for the shape part.

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    • Chidori requires a lot of chakra. Sasuke's stamina may have been a problem and that was the focus of his training. Even Kakashi had limited number of uses per day as an adult jonin. Sasuke being a 12ish year old genin wouldnt have the reserves to maintain it unless trained specifically for it.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      I made an edit to an earlier post that you probably missed because you replied while i was typing it but i made an analogy with a professional weight lifter.

      If a Sharingan user saw the weight lifter doing a dead lift, he would be able to copy the weight lifter's form and technique but wouldnt be able to pick up the same weight as the lifter.

      I like this example

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    • But if we go back at the beginning of the series, Sasuke vs Gaara makes no sense. So Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu moves, but how comes he suddenly gained his physical abilities as well? I mean, ok, Sasuke copied Lee's moves, but him moving as fast as Lee did without his weights makes no sense. They made him copy not only his moves, but his speed as well. Which is illogical. Sasuke was no where near as fast before that, but they made him ridiculously fast just because he "copied" Lee's moves, which makes no sense because you can't "copy" physical stats.

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    • Kakashi trained him to move that fast in the month. In the translation that i have it says he copied Lees style not his speed. Kakashi attributes Sasule speed to the training.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: but if we go back at the beginning of the series, Sasuke vs Gaara makes no sense.

      In addition to what LegionZero mentioned, keep in mind that there's definitely a technique to even things like moving fast. By analyzing lee's moves, Sasuke would be able to train much more efficiently.

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      I mean, ok, Sasuke copied Lee's moves, but him moving as fast as Lee did without his weights makes no sense.

      As Lee noted, Sasuke is a true genius. Lee isn't special and has to work insanely hard to be strong and fast. But those blessed with powerful genes can easily acquire such power.This has been a trend throughout the series. Hard work beats a genius, but a genius who works hard beats either.

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    • That's ridiculous and nonsense. If he would've used a technique to make himself faster, they would've mentioned it. And physical stats are still physical stats, no matter what.To say that he modified his body for that speed in one month what took Lee 2 years and training a hell lot more than Sasuke is straight up BS. And again, there is one thing to copy ones moves and another to copy his physicality.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote:

      That's ridiculous and nonsense. If he would've used a technique to make himself faster, they would've mentioned it. And physical stats are still physical stats, no matter what.To say that he modified his body for that speed in one month what took Lee 2 years and training a hell lot more than Sasuke is straight up BS. And again, there is one thing to copy ones moves and another to copy his physicality.

      What he means is technique helps in training. Lee had to practice correct form in order to exercise properly.

      Sasuke just copied the form down and trained with it for the speed and power. So he didn't have to practice form at all; he just copied it. The actual speed and strength was what he had to work for.

      It's like doing push-ups. If you do push-ups with bad form, then you won't get as strong and as fast as someone who uses good form. And in terms of moving and fighting, form is hard to learn. Unless of course, you have the Sharingan and can use the correct form from the start.

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    • I seriously doubt that Lee trained wrong all that time. These guys are ninjas, not regular people.The universe laws in Naruto are a lot different.Lee did know how to train, and beside Sasuke didn't even copy Lee's training. He supposedly copied some of his taijutsu moves. Whatever, believe what you want. For me this will always be a huge plot hole that makes no sense.

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    • @Vladosaurus

      I don't think you can achieve perfection in a few years. Gai stated before he trained him, Lee had absolutely no talent not even in physical abilities. He was basically a 1 out of 20, with 20 being where he was in Chunin Exams. Sasuke was probably at a 10 and needed less training. Then Sasuke just copied his form from his fight. Sasuke took Lee's movement speed, Lee moved plenty against Sasuke. Then you have the possibility of Kakashi who could have copied some of Lee's form and showed it to Sasuke and Sasuke could've copied that. In fact, I think it was stated Kakashi did do this, but I could be wrong. All Sasuke had to do was train in Lee's ongoing form, and produce results quicker than Lee since Lee spent years perfecting his art. Then you got Kakashi who Gai has spent his life trying to surpass, helping Sasuke. Kakashi has probably seen all that Gai has to offer. It's not even like Sasuke maintained that speed for a long period of time. It was mostly for the run for Chidori.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: That's ridiculous and nonsense. If he would've used a technique to make himself faster, they would've mentioned it.

      I don't know if you've ever practiced sport, but there are many techniques to get more out of training, and get more out of your strength and skill. The way you run, jump, breathe can all contribute. That's what i was talking about. Sasuke would go into his month of training understanding perfectly what to get out of it, while Lee would've started from the bottom.

      The training we've mostly see Lee do is endurance training (everything they do, they do for a ridiculous amount of time), whereas Sasuke could've gotten a good amount of speed for relatively few bursts. Keep in mind that the Gates place a huge strain on his body, so Lee would need far more endurance to use his techniques than Sasuke. We've also seen Sasuke use only a few of Lee's techniques and mostly maintained speed for speed's sake. I doubt that he'd be able to actually beat Lee in a pure taijutsu fight.

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