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  • As we know that the original contents on the tablet were altered by Black Zetsu suggesting that the Infinte Tsukuyomi was bring peace rather than destruction but it never explained how the people would live inside the Infinte Tsukiyomi.

    People can't dream forever. They need to have enough life force. Madara never explains how people would live FOREVER in a dream without eating or drinking. Also what was Madara's plan after everyone was in the genjutsu? Did he himself plan to get caught in it? Did he want all mankind to eventually die inside the genjutsu in order to bring PEACE? Why did he want to get revived anyway, since Obito could have fulfilled his duty? IMO, Madara was just a selfish person who wanted to control the world and desire was so strong that he couldn't let anyone take his place.

    Was The legendary Madara Uchiha so dumb as to never question the consequences of this Infinte Tsukuyomi?

    Also how did he just believe that Black Zetsu was the manifestation of HIS will without any PROOF that he created it? I am sure he wasn't so dumb as to just blindly believe whatever Black Zetsu told.

    The concept of Infinte Tsukuyomi was great but it wasn't explained properly.

    Please let me know what you guys think of the above questions.

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: People can't dream forever. They need to have enough life force. Madara never explains how people would live FOREVER in a dream without eating or drinking.

      People with Zetsu cells do not need to eat or drink. So presumably, Madara thought that the plant part of the IT would keep them nourished (rather than using them as nourishment, as the actual IT did).

      Gagua2028 wrote: Also what was Madara's plan after everyone was in the genjutsu? Did he himself plan to get caught in it? Did he want all mankind to eventually die inside the genjutsu in order to bring PEACE? Why did he want to get revived anyway, since Obito could have fulfilled his duty?

      He wanted people to live in the genjutsu in order to create peace. He intended himself to be the Savior, so presumably he'd have guided the IT in order to create the world he wanted. Maybe at some future point he would've released the jutsu once everyone was more or less brainwashed to accept his worldview. But creating this world would be difficult, so Madara didn't really plan beyond it (and once achieved, would have all the time and power to plan for it).

      Gagua2028 wrote:

      Also how did he just believe that Black Zetsu was the manifestation of HIS will without any PROOF that he created it? I am sure he wasn't so dumb as to just blindly believe whatever Black Zetsu told.

      Black Zetsu manipulated him to believe such things. He was manipulating from the shadows, and simply made Madara believe he could manifest his will in such a fashion. It's implied at various points that some sort of connection exists between both White and Black Zetsu and Madara/Obito, so presumably Zetsu did it in such a way that his suggestions appeared as Madara's own ideas. And once out in the open, he could simply pretend to be Madara's will.

      Gagua2028 wrote: Why did he want to get revived anyway, since Obito could have fulfilled his duty?

      Because he wanted to be the savior himself, and didn't trust obito (which was entirely justified, since Obito was thwarting his plans).

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    • I agree with most points but you say that he may have planned to release IT once everyone was brainwashed but the way he and Obito were controlling the ten tails it seemed that they were ready to destroy the whole world to cast the IT. If the TSB from the ten tails weren't deflected or countered in time no one would have survived, not even the civilians since the range was enormous. Even if a few thousand civilians could remain living what good could Madara accomplish with them?

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: If the TSB from the ten tails weren't deflected or countered in time no one would have survived, not even the civilians since the range was enormous.

      Even if all Shinobi died, there are easily 10-100x as many non-shinobi for every shinobi.

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    • C`mon, I think that during the meeting with Naruto Hagoromo explained that the IT itself doesn't just lock people within a genjutsu, but it's also meant to keep them alive as dreaming slaves forever via the God Tree lifeforce and their own chakra. So, that's not an issuie, although it's not actually very clear what Madara intended to do when the world was dreaming.

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: C`mon, I think that during the meeting with Naruto Hagoromo explained that the IT itself doesn't just lock people within a genjutsu, but it's also meant to keep them alive as dreaming slaves forever via the God Tree lifeforce and their own chakra.

      The God Tree actually uses their chakra as nourishment, since it drains them of chakra and personality and turns them into White Zetsu. Sure it ensures these people don't need to eat, but it's not healthy. And it's not clear what Black Zetsu or the Monument tell about the mechanics of IT, and whether Madara understood they'd be maintained.

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    • I am just saying that Madara was shown to be an excellent planner and so he should have checked the consequences of his actions beforehand.

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: I am just saying that Madara was shown to be an excellent planner and so he should have checked the consequences of his actions beforehand.

      He couldn't have known. He couldn't have known how IT would really react, nor could he have planned for the Post-IT phase since he wouldn't be able to understand the power he'd have. Besides, once the major part of his plan was done, there would be nobody to oppose his plans and he'd be effectively immortal and so have all the time to plan.

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    • Well you just found his IT plan edgy? I felt whole part of relying on Obito was edgy. What would he have done if Obito completes the plan in his place? My guess is that he had some eventualities planned for every situation other than the actual IT since he was actually relying completely on Sage's words-->Tablet.
      He would have never questioned it since it gave him an alternative to Hashirama's vision. A World where everyone had everything. Its lot more better if it can be done. I won't be surprised if people would actually follow some plans to implement it.

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    • Yeah but I think Kishimoto should really have had Madara explain what he was going to do after casting the IT because all we can make are theories that this or that might have happened.

      So basically Madara wanted to use the Divine tree as an ultimate weapon to control people by fear for achieving peace just as Pain wanted peace by striking fear into people of the weapon he was creating with the tailed beasts, right?

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Well you just found his IT plan edgy? I felt whole part of relying on Obito was edgy. What would he have done if Obito completes the plan in his place?

      Not sure what edgy has to do with it. Zetsu was madara's real agent, and moved in order to make Obito stick to the plan. Obito already tried to complete the plan in his place anyway, and we saw what madara did against it.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Not sure what edgy has to do with it. Zetsu was madara's real agent, and moved in order to make Obito stick to the plan. Obito already tried to complete the plan in his place anyway, and we saw what madara did against it.

      Madara did what? Nothing. Naruto instead convinced him other wise.
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Madara did what? Nothing. Naruto instead convinced him other wise.

      Madara stole Sage Mode and moved against Obito. Why do you think he explained the plan to Hashirama>? To get him to counter it of course, but not so much that he couldn't complete it himself. After all, although he seems to be caught in Hashirama's binding before he forces Obito resurrect him, once revived he loses the Rinnegan yet breaks the bind as if it was never there, implying he was simply playing along.

      In the event that Obito was truly beyond controlling, he could simply let Black Zetsu force him to give up. Which he kinda did with Rinne Tensei.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Madara stole Sage Mode and moved against Obito. Why do you think he explained the plan to Hashirama>? To get him to counter it of course, but not so much that he couldn't complete it himself. After all, although he seems to be caught in Hashirama's binding before he forces Obito resurrect him, once revived he loses the Rinnegan yet breaks the bind as if it was never there, implying he was simply playing along.

      In the event that Obito was truly beyond controlling, he could simply let Black Zetsu force him to give up. Which he kinda did with Rinne Tensei.

      Madara stole sage mode? Sorry I feel like you are trying to divert the point I am trying to drive home. I am talking about the scenario where Obito successfully casts IT while Madara waits on the other side. When Madara became TTJ he made some comment about how it all happen how he wanted-planned. I am skeptical about that, Since once Obito remained unopposed(as TTJ) there was no way in hell Madara could stop him. And I doubt Zetsu would help madara considering how he back stabbed Madara.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Sorry I feel like you are trying to divert the point I am trying to drive home. I am talking about the scenario where Obito successfully casts IT while Madara waits on the other side.

      "Waits on the other side"? What do you mean, that madara is still dead? I thought we were talking about Edo Madara, who already took measures against obito in the Manga. He would never allow Obito to cast IT, he made that clear.

      Madara told Hashirama about the plan so that he could counter it. Once Obito is down and out, he thanks Naruto and co for weakening him so he doesn't have to do it himself. However, he also quickly obtains sage mode (since that allows him to damage Obito) and wrecks the Alliance with ease. This implies that he did indeed have the power to take down Obito himself, though he obviously didn't like the risk. Note that Madara seems bound by Hashirama's torii, yet when resurrected he loses his Rinnegan and still wrecks the Torii as if they weren't there. So it's implied Madara simply was misleading his enemies.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      And I doubt Zetsu would help madara considering how he back stabbed Madara.

      He helped resurrect Madara, both as an Edo and as a Rinne Tensei.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      In the event that Obito was truly beyond controlling, he could simply let Black Zetsu force him to give up. Which he kinda did with Rinne Tensei.


      BZ wouldn`t do a thing against TTJ Obito. Madara admitted that Obito could prevent him from using his trump card by being Jinchuuriki. He even thanked Naruto for weakening Obito in the first place. Preparation of Obito for casting IT also affected him briefly.

      His statements about being able to cast IT under those circumstances by himself could be an act of self-confidence, cause i see no ways for him to overpower Obito in a row fight.

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    • LovelyFox wrote: BZ wouldn`t do a thing against TTJ Obito.

      Madara used BZ to ressurect himself. He didn't know that BZ did that on his own. So he likely had planned to use BZ to control Obito if needed.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Well you just found his IT plan edgy? I felt whole part of relying on Obito was edgy. What would he have done if Obito completes the plan in his place?

      This is the original question, but we already know some of those answers. For one, Madara placed a Cursed Puppet seal on Obito to prevent him from becoming TTJ in the first place. He made Black Zetsu to enact his will in times of need (or so BZ made him believe), so any time Obito strayed from the plan, BZ would correct. While not every part of his plan went well (He was supposed to be resurrected first, then the biju were to be collected), Madara was aware of Edo Tensei so doubtlessly had instructed BZ to use it in case Obito would not come trough (though obviously, BZ wasn't his minion in reality).

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      LovelyFox wrote: BZ wouldn`t do a thing against TTJ Obito.

      Madara used BZ to ressurect himself. He didn't know that BZ did that on his own. So he likely had planned to use BZ to control Obito if needed.

      I meant BZ arguably wasn`t strong enough to control Obito.

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    • LovelyFox wrote: I meant BZ arguably wasn`t strong enough to control Obito.

      He was strong enough to control TTJ Double rinnegan Rinnesharingan Madara. So yea, he could control Obito.

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    • Thekillman wrote: He was strong enough to control TTJ Double rinnegan Rinnesharingan Madara. So yea, he could control Obito.

      Madara was caught off-guard by BZ and also he got weaker after using IT at some degree (bags under his eyes after IT clearly indicate that).

      Obito wouldn`t have let BZ even to get close to him if the latter had tried to overpower Obito (however, it could have happened due to Obito`s arrogance since getting that power). Even if BZ actually could do it, I assume he would have accomplished his goals via Obito instead of Madara then (which would have left Madara behind anyway).

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    • LovelyFox wrote: Madara was caught off-guard by BZ and also he got weaker after using IT at some degree (bags under his eyes after IT clearly indicate that).

      Doesn't change the fact that he was still insanely powerful. BZ was able to subdue both Naruto and Sasuke for a while, who were together more or less equivalent to TTJ DR Madara. So yea, indication is that Black Zetsu could also control Obito.

      Besides, it's about what Madara would've planned, not about what BZ actually intended. BZ was fast enough to outplay Minato, and stealthy enough to mislead and backstab Madara. Obito would not have much choice in this whole affair, if BZ would chose to supplant Obito with Madara.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Besides, it's about what Madara would've planned, not about what BZ actually intended. BZ was fast enough to outplay Minato, and stealthy enough to mislead and backstab Madara. Obito would not have much choice in this whole affair, if BZ would chose to supplant Obito with Madara.

      The thing is it`s unknown whether BZ wanted to use anybody who was able to cast IT (i.e Obito) or not, even if he originally had been considering Madara as a major candidate. And if he did, then Madara should have defeated Obito without BZ assisstance which would eventually lead Madara to death.

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    • So in the end even though Obito was ready to cast the IT, Madara wouldn't let him do so since he himself wanted to be the "hero" or the "saviour" and be in the spotlight even if a major portion of the world perished and wouldn't let anyone else in the limelight even though both of them had the same goal, right?

      Madara was such a hypocrite!

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: Madara was such a hypocrite!

      Which was kind of the point. He notes that throughout history, there's always been war, but never stops to think that he's been the cause of a whole lot of fighting himself. He caused a Fourth World War, to end war.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Gagua2028 wrote: Madara was such a hypocrite!

      Which was kind of the point. He notes that throughout history, there's always been war, but never stops to think that he's been the cause of a whole lot of fighting himself. He caused a Fourth World War, to end war.

      Madara actually had a potential to best villain but... things didn't work out so well for him. Kishimoto should have really explained Madara in depth actually. His motives are still kinda unclear to me. And his plan wasn't foolproof either I mean what if someone had taken Nagato's Rinnegan?! Then no Rinnegan and no Madara. The plan was too much dependent on luck despite Madara taking so desperate measures as to implant the 3 tails in Rin and let her get killed by Kakashi specifically when Minato wasn't present!

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    • Gagua2028 wrote:

      Kishimoto should have really explained Madara in depth actually. His motives are still kinda unclear to me.

      Not sure what you mean. Madara read the Tablet and learned that before and after Kaguya, people warred. Even the power of a god could not stop people from warring indefinitely. So Madara vowed to end this, and create a world that would be free from war. IT is strong enough that people don't know they're in it, so functionally it's the same as creating an actual world for each being to live in. Hence, he would bring about world peace forever.

      It's not entirely clear if he intended to actually keep people in there forever, or merely wanted them to learn to cooperate. However, what is clear is that Madara got used to doing things through sheer power, and couldn't conceive of an alternative where people could be convinced otherwise. Hashirama bet on the fact that allowing people to cooperate would lead to greater understanding, and facilitated that via the Village. But rather than pooling together to achieve a common goal, Madara only saw it as a defeat for the Uchiha (and in a sense, he was right), and so also worked hard to undo Hashirama's plans.

      Gagua2028 wrote:

      And his plan wasn't foolproof either I mean what if someone had taken Nagato's Rinnegan?!

      No plan is foolproof. Nagato was clearly strong enough to handle his own, but even then Madara had many Zetsu and probably had quite a few shadowing him permanently. In the event someone stole his eyes, the next target would be used to resurrect Madara. In the end, this was the only reason for Nagato's existence: to control the Rinnegan to such an extent that he could Rinne Tensei Madara.

      Gagua2028 wrote: Then no Rinnegan and no Madara.

      Whosoever holds the Rinnegan would be the one forced to Rinne Tensei Madara. Black Zetsu and Obito existed to guide the Rinnegan user and make him ressurect Madara. Note that Nagato believed he could survive Rinne Tensei, so obviously Obito had planted the seeds for his resurrection. he just never followed through.

      Gagua2028 wrote: The plan was too much dependent on luck despite Madara taking so desperate measures as to implant the 3 tails in Rin and let her get killed by Kakashi specifically when Minato wasn't present!

      No, not really. Zetsu are perfect spies, Madara must've planted a few to ensure he knew Minato's schedule. Zetsu can copy chakra and appearances, so a few planted strategically could convince people that sealing the 3-tails in Rin and sending her to Konoha as a biju bomb would be a great idea. He could similarly use a few to keep guard for when they showed up, and "by accident" have Spiral Zetsu leak that information and aid Obito.

      The rest of it was pretty much all planned. Obito had a Cursed Puppet seal on him so he couldn't go against Madara's plan (though notably, he could switch around the order of the plan e.g. resurrect madara later), Black Zetsu would have the power to force him to do specific tasks, and Nagato seemed poisoned by Obito's words into concocting a similar plan, so worst-case, Madara would still have most of his plan set in motion.

      Even then, BZ was supposed to be his will, and Madara knew of Edo Tensei, so if things truly went dire then his own Will could simply Edo Tensei him and so restore him to his own agent. But even then, Obito implies he tried to kill himself and because of the Curse Seal, couldn't do even that. He had literally no choice but to enact the plan, and only could become TTJ because he was able to survive Kakashi's chidori long enough (the circumstances of which were mostly luck).

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    • I don't think Nagato had Zetsu spies following him since at one point he was about to die of starvation and it was only luck that Konan found him. The Zetsus didn't help him no matter how dire the situation was. And even if he had Zetsu spies, I agree that Zetsus are great spies but there was no guarantee that they could protect Nagato. Even you know how weak they are. Any person capable of taking Rinnegan from Nagato wouldn't be a chicken. What if Orochimaru had killed Nagato and taken his Rinnegan. Of course, Zetsus couldn't match him. Despite being useful spies they could never find Orochimaru's hideout. They only had a specific area under them. They couldn't do anything out of their range.

      If Madara's plan failed, he couldn't use the Edo tensei since he wouldn't be able to be the "saviour" then and wouldn't be able to become the TTJ and then no IT.

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    • I just think that Black Zetsu fooled Madara into doing it so he can bring back Kaguya. Like he said it was his plan all along, he probably didn't tell Madara that it slowly kills people to make another chakra fruit. Madara was probably gonna backstab Black Zetsu and just take the chakra fruit when it emerges.

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: I don't think Nagato had Zetsu spies following him since at one point he was about to die of starvation and it was only luck that Konan found him.

      It seems exceptionally stupid to me that Madara would not have the kid with his Rinnegna, who is a major point of his future plan, permanently shadowed. Zetsu can hide from even the most expert Ninja sensors, so there's zero chance that Nagato or Konan would even know they're there. Plus, he got saved in the end didn't he? They would never give up their cover unless they absolutely had to. And they didn't have to.

      Gagua2028 wrote:

      Even you know how weak they are. Any person capable of taking Rinnegan from Nagato wouldn't be a chicken.
      Any person capable of taking that Rinnegan would likely get a visit from Obito. The Zetsu don't have to physically defend him, worst case scenario they can encase him and hide underground. Zetsu may not be great combatants, but they have some very useful abilities when you want to keep an eye on a kid with god-eyes and keep him safe from most reasonable sources of danger.

      Gagua2028 wrote: If Madara's plan failed, he couldn't use the Edo tensei since he wouldn't be able to be the "saviour" then and wouldn't be able to become the TTJ and then no IT.

      He could use Edo Tensei to enact his plan himself, to recover his Rinnegan himself and ensure his plan that way. With Black Zetsu, he could force someone to revive him with that Rinnegan. Plus, at the time nobody understood the true power of the Rinnegan, so it's not like they'd risk their lives for a kid with a weird eye pattern. Not even Jiraiya understood his full power until he faced him as an adult. There's thus no reason to believe that he'd be at risk from capture by Orochimaru (who didn't understand the implications until much later, when nagato was already able to defend himself).

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    • @Killman
      No. Madara never gave any such information to zetsu. If he did BZ would have given his plan a rush. he wouldn't have needed anything but to manipulate the Rinnegan bearer. Someone like Madara would have been pain in the ass. While they might have found out after some time(after Jiraiya's training) Nagato was still quite safe in his organization. It's only after Danzo-Orochimaru play their move to create civil war that Nagato actually goes to Madara(Tobi).
      And its not like Obito himself was too mature at this point. He was still teenager. No way he was match for Orochimaru. There's nothing he could have done no matter how you splice it. Jiraiya keeping the 3 under his tutelage was the best bet.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      No. Madara never gave any such information to zetsu. If he did BZ would have given his plan a rush. he wouldn't have needed anything but to manipulate the Rinnegan bearer.

      Not sure which information you're talking about specifically. Madara couldn't just manipulate the Rinnegan wielder, since Nagato wasn't old enough to master it yet. Madara would have to die in order to be Rinne Tensei'd, yet that would leave his ressurection plan hanging by only one thread, namely Nagato's willingness to revive Madara. With Black Zetsu there would be some safety in it, but for true safety Madara would need all three agents: Someone to wield his rinnegan, someone to wield his name and act for him, and someone to guard his intent and real plan (to be the savior). Obito, as a human being, would be able to act and fight on Madara's behalf. Black Zetsu is useful, but not great at such things. If Nagato knew the full plan, he would likely rebel and act on his own. After all, why would he revive some guy he barely knew? Especially, why would he die for him?

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Someone like Madara would have been pain in the ass.

      Again, it's not about what really happened. it's what Madara planned. Madara thought BZ was his own Will. So for the purpose of Madara's plans, he would have BZ act according to what he wanted himself.

      Neither Obito nor BZ wanted Madara revived. Obito rebelled against the plan as much as he could, which is limited thanks to the Cursed Puppet seal yet in the end it had considerable side-effects. It makes no real sense for Madara to stay dead for decades just so he could wait and step in at the last moment. Sure, Obito was supposed to do preparations in his name, but the real wait was for Nagato to gain the power necessary to Rinne Tensei. Which wouldn't have been terribly long, if Obito had manipulated him properly.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      And its not like Obito himself was too mature at this point. He was still teenager. No way he was match for Orochimaru.

      He was powerful enough to match Minato to a considerable degree. Nor does he necessarily have to defeat Orochimaru, the only point is to ensure Nagato survives, and he simply could've Kamui'd him to safety.

      EDIT: Madara also says that Obito was a spare so that he could be resurrected (N637). He clearly didn't want to rely on just one guy with his eyes.

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    • @killman

      You know orochimaru's hunger for knowledge and discovering new things. If he had seen Nagato's eyes, he would surely be interested in finding more about them and hence try to take them from him and as we can see in the episode, orochimaru is right in front of Nagato to kill him so there's no chance that Zetsus could have saved him in that situation if jiraiya hadn't been there.

      Also, you said that any Rinnegan bearer would get a visit from obito but if orochimaru had got the Rinnegan that time, Obito wouldn't have been able to do anything since he was just a kid at the time when jiraiya was young. And once orochimaru could tap the full power of the Rinnegan, even adult obito couldn't have stopped him.

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: You know orochimaru's hunger for knowledge and discovering new things. If he had seen Nagato's eyes, he would surely be interested in finding more about them

      It was believed to be nothing more than a mutation, IE just a coloration of the eyes. Orochimaru has no interest in such cosmetic appearances.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Gagua2028 wrote: You know orochimaru's hunger for knowledge and discovering new things. If he had seen Nagato's eyes, he would surely be interested in finding more about them

      It was believed to be nothing more than a mutation, IE just a coloration of the eyes. Orochimaru has no interest in such cosmetic appearances.

      Where is that implied in the series that his eyes were considered mutation? Anyways, it would anyways look completely suspicious to orochimaru for a war orphan to get a mutation for "cosmetic appearances"

      Leaving that aside, I REALLY have a hard time believing that orochimaru wouldn't know anything about the Rinnegan since jiraiya knew about it. I mean come on, we know jiraiya wasn't dumb but orochimaru researched about MANY things more than jiraiya while jiraiya was busy doing the pervy stuff. And while jiraiya knew a little about the Rinnegan, it should be obvious that orochimaru should also know at least something about the Rinnegan. Even shizune knew a little about the Rinnegan!


      Don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to point out the plot holes in naruto by putting such threads but it's still fun to speculate and do stuff like that on topics which weren't too specified in the manga/anime

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    • Gagua2028 wrote: Where is that implied in the series that his eyes were considered mutation? Anyways, it would anyways look completely suspicious to orochimaru for a war orphan to get a mutation for "cosmetic appearances"

      I think Jiraiya says it when he faces pain.

      Gagua2028 wrote:

      Leaving that aside, I REALLY have a hard time believing that orochimaru wouldn't know anything about the Rinnegan since jiraiya knew about it.

      Jiraiya thought it was just a legend. He didn't truly believe it until Nagato showed himself to be clearly above the rest during training. To orochimaru, the kid just had weird eyes like many other people. I don't see him abducting Kurenai because her eyes are suspiciously sharingan-like.

      On the contrary, we've seen him abduct people who clearly displayed unusual ability. Sasuke wasn't interesting to him until he was a ninja already and showed his Sharingan.

      Gagua2028 wrote:

      Don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to point out the plot holes in naruto by putting such threads but it's still fun to speculate and do stuff like that on topics which weren't too specified in the manga/anime

      It's perfectly fine to point out plotholes. But i often get the impression that people try too hard to find one, even when alternative explanations are available. The author may not have had time to express such explanations and only hints may exist.

      For instance, Kabuto's Rinnegan hypothesis is pretty interesting, but it requires for instance that he knew Madara survived the VotE fight. It seems to me that Orochimaru's interest in the Rinnegan couldn't have been stoked until he joined Akatsuki and saw Nagato (since it's similar to him meeting Sasuke and seeing his power for himself), and that his interest in Madara may not have been more than crude experiments into the Uchiha until Obito came forward. (well technically it was Kabuto, but he and Orochimaru shared all their research).

      Kabuto's Rinnegan hypothesis doesn't make much sense (or rather, would hinge on pure guesswork) unless he knew for a fact that a Rinnegan could truly exist and until he knew that Madara may have survived. Until that point, it seemed he was merely interested in Hashirama's power for power's sake (his experiments into wood release show an interest in the power for power's sake, rather than later guided sharingan/hashicell experiments)

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    • It's been a while since I followed the thread.
      @Killman
      Remember how BZ controls Obito to use Rinne tensei? IF BZ knew about Nagato having the Rinnegan he could have taken it from him controlled some random shinobi and brought Madara back to life. This didn't happen for some reasons. One of these reasons is that Nagato wasn't known to be Rinnegan bearer. It's only till later that we see BZ finding the Kid and Obito manipulating him.
      Also I don't think anyone knew about the eyes until Nagato protects yahiko from a ninja. It was mostly covered with hair. considering the fact that Nagato was a shy kid I am not surprised that Orochimaru didn't knew about rinnegan in first meet.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: It's been a while since I followed the thread.
      @Killman
      Remember how BZ controls Obito to use Rinne tensei? IF BZ knew about Nagato having the Rinnegan he could have taken it from him controlled some random shinobi and brought Madara back to life. This didn't happen for some reasons. One of these reasons is that Nagato wasn't known to be Rinnegan bearer. It's only till later that we see BZ finding the Kid and Obito manipulating him.
      Also I don't think anyone knew about the eyes until Nagato protects yahiko from a ninja. It was mostly covered with hair. considering the fact that Nagato was a shy kid I am not surprised that Orochimaru didn't knew about rinnegan in first meet.

      But any "random shinobi" couldn't control the power of the Rinnegan. Even Obito could control only one. Madara specifically choose Nagato for this purpose since being an uzumaki he had large chakra reserves and skills to control the Rinnegan. Also, from my observation, BZ can't possibly control anybody he likes. The person has to either be weak or be in a weakened state.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: IF BZ knew about Nagato having the Rinnegan he could have taken it from him controlled some random shinobi and brought Madara back to life

      If BZ had truly been madara's will, then he would have. It wasn't until late in Obito's plans that BZ suspected that Obito didn't want to complete the plan at all, and so had Kabuto discover the corpse in order to blackmail Obito.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Also I don't think anyone knew about the eyes until Nagato protects yahiko from a ninja.

      Considering plenty of ninja have weird eye designs, Kurenai for instance but also Shukaku, i think it was expected as nothing but just another weird eye design. Nagato didn't really manifest it's power until Yahiko died. And so Orochimaru had no reason to suspect it was something special until that point. But it's not until he joined Akatsuki that Orochimaru would've noticed Nagato's strange eyes and powers, and that's roughly the point in which his curiosity would've peaked.

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