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  • So, in this battle, as it says in the title, Naruto is the current Hokage. He is not allowed to use neither Kurama, nor SPSM. So the only amp he can use is SM.

    Itachi is the one from part 2. He can use his abilities to the same degree he did when he was an EDO tensei. So he won't get tired after one amaterasu or after 10 seconds of susanoo usage. To be clear, he is NOT and EDO, so he doesn't have the edo regeneration. He has kind of an EMS if you will, but he isn't able to conjure a Susanoo with legs or anything like that. Only feats that he displayed.

    They know about each other from their previous encounters from part 1/part 2/ the war.

    They fight in an opened field.

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    • Reasonably sure Itachi never saw Naruto in Sage Mode. He only ever saw his 9 Tails chakra mode. So Naruto has the advantage of Itachi not knowing about his Sage Mode.

      Naruto also has knowledge of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and I'm guessing we can count Naruto seeing Sasuke's Susanoo as some experience for seeing/fighting Susanoo.

      Sage Mode gives a pretty huge increase in strength that's usually underestimated; I keep remembering that giant rhino summon that Naruto caught dead in its tracks, then threw it straight in the air. By the horn too, which is harder than if he'd thrown the thing center mass.

      Naruto's reaction times and whatnot are greatly increased as well, enough to dodge and perfectly hit the Third Raikage's strongest attack. And I'm assuming that his strongest attack is very fast as well.

      These are all feats of Naruto when he was younger. So we can assume he's at least a little better when he's older.


      Now, I think Naruto will win. I feel like he's gotten a lot wiser in his age, so he wouldn't be such a bumbling idiot about things.

      Itachi is immensely fast, yes. But I don't think he's any faster than the 4th or 3rd Raikage. So Naruto and Itachi wouldn't be too far over the other in terms of speed probably.

      Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi can probably be sensed by Naruto. In turn, Naruto's Frog Kumite can't be read by the Sharingan effectively since Nature Energy is used as an extension of his limbs. And we know that Nature Energy can't be sensed by anyone who hasn't trained in Senjutsu.

      Susanoo is tricky to counter for Naruto, but I think enough Shadow Clones with huge Rasengans should be able to break it down, and by this point Naruto has enough of his own chakra to do it.

      Keep it mind that Naruto can now, on the fly and even without Sage Mode or clones, create and throw a Rasenshuriken with just one hand. On top of that, he can enter Sage Mode almost instantly.

      Naruto takes it, in my opinion.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Keep it mind that Naruto can now, on the fly and even without Sage Mode or clones, create and throw a Rasenshuriken with just one hand. On top of that, he can enter Sage Mode almost instantly.

      I do wonder about that Rasenshuriken feat.I mean I thought it was completely needed Sage chakra to be able to safely use it.But somehow he learned to do it, without it?

      Maybe, you know, he is still connected with Kurama.Since Kurama himself, gives powerful equal to sage chakra.I mean, yes, Naruto gets stronger with Kurama's chakra in his modes.But Kurama still yet gives him chakra.It's just that when he gives in more, it becomes a mode.As a perfect Jinchuriki.I think Naruto and Kurama's chakra mixed as one, to become stronger?Even at base?

      As well as it could be the six paths chakra.And I don't mean the SPSM.But just six paths chakra.Since itself is like Sage chakra.And it's shown to give Sasuke strong durability without any mode.I mean Naruto does have his SP chakra even in his base, just like Sasuke right? he just adds it with his Sage chakra to have a much more power with SPSM.And so with just SP chakra in base, he could perform the RS safely?Just asking.

      Anyways, Naruto has a better chance of winning this battle than Itachi.So Naruto wins.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      I do wonder about that Rasenshuriken feat.I mean I thought it was completely needed Sage chakra to be able to safely use it.But somehow he learned to do it, without it?

      Maybe, you know, he is still connected with Kurama.Since Kurama himself, gives powerful equal to sage chakra.I mean, yes, Naruto gets stronger with Kurama's chakra in his modes.But Kurama still yet gives him chakra.It's just that when he gives in more, it becomes a mode.As a perfect Jinchuriki.I think Naruto and Kurama's chakra mixed as one, to become stronger?Even at base?

      As well as it could be the six paths chakra.And I don't mean the SPSM.But just six paths chakra.Since itself is like Sage chakra.And it's shown to give Sasuke strong durability without any mode.I mean Naruto does have his SP chakra even in his base, just like Sasuke right? he just adds it with his Sage chakra to have a much more power with SPSM.And so with just SP chakra in base, he could perform the RS safely?Just asking.

      Anyways, Naruto has a better chance of winning this battle than Itachi.So Naruto wins.

      I'm pretty sure Naruto did it himself, usually his eyes will turn red or orange or yellow or something when he uses Kurama's chakra, even when befriended with him.

      The issue with Rasenshuriken before was that he himself didn't have enough control/chakra to throw it. Sage Mode gave him more potent chakra, so he could with Sage Mode. But as he got older, he became more proficient with the technique and he developed his own chakra pools. So he mastered it to the point of throwing it himself.

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    • For the same reasons as listed above, I also believe Naruto will take this.

      If you were to think about it, even without using Kurama and SPSM, Naruto is still basically one of the strongest Kage in history. Granted the usage of those powers has helped further his understanding of Jutsu and chakra, thus allowing him to master Sage Mode / Rasenshuriken to such an extent, it's pretty impressive how powerful he is without the enhancements anymore.

      inb4 naruto is rekt by some galactus tier bad bad yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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    • It was pretty obvious that Naruto created the rasenshurikens on his own in the Last. And i also think it's save to say that as an adult, he has a huge chakra pool on his own. So the mastery of the jutsu's such as the rasenshurikens can be possible for somebody like Naruto, even in base, considering that he has very strong chakra on his own as well.

      Is think it's save to say that as an adult in base he is stronger than he was as a teen in SM. In the last he created 2 rasenshurikens on the fly and throw/guide/detonate them, without even breaking a sweat. When he fought Pain he could only create about 2 per SM usage. That's a big difference.

      And i think in speed, Naruto and Itachi are about even, or i'd even argue that Naruto might be faster. Strength wise, it's not even comparable. In terms of sensing/tracking SM is likely superior to MS/EMS. Like it was said, Naruto could probably sense amaterasu, while Itachi can't sense frog kumite coming, for obvious reasons. And a hit from that can pretty much kill you, as seen.

      When i made this thread i was thinking more about how Naruto would defeat the yata mirror, hence why i gave Itachi his EDO tensei feats, where he doesn't get exhausted.

      So, Yata mirror can deflect any/most attacks because it can adapt to any chakra nature, right? But what if Naruto use senjutsu attacks, like a senjutsu enhanced rasenshuriken? I mean much like the TSB, the yata mirror would probably not be immune to nature energy. It makes about sense. Or if i think about, even an ultra-big ball rasengan might or a lesser variant might do the job, because the rasengan is not using any chakra nature.

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    • Not that I think it's not.I just wanted to know if Naruto actually does posses SP Chakra in his base like Sasuke.


      Well, I can't help but think that by removing Kurama, Naruto is in risk of genjutsu, against a guy with being one of the most skilled in it.So in a sense, Itachi does have his chance.

      And UBBR may destroy Susanoo.But I'm sure about it.But I guess, since UBBR been mentioned to be able to destroy a part of a mountain.Just like Kirin destroyed the mountain with the susanoo they had been in.And Naruto being more stronger than his previous times.I think he could break it.But can he break through it? I mean Itachi survived a mountain blasting Kirin, that was straight at him.Even if it got destroyed.Itachi was still fine.If anything, it means Itachi could just jump out of the susanoo when it get's hit and form another.Since he has infinite chakra.And he can still use Amaterasu at Naruto.And if by chance the orginal(considering Naruto probably use clones) gets hit.Then he can't escape it, without Kurama chakra.As well as TB.

      Other than these things.Naruto has more chances to win.

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    • Itachi does not have infinite chakra, i'm just allowing him to use his abilities at EMS standards.

      In the last, Naruto's rasengans broke through Toneri's TSB. Susanoo can't hold a candle to TSB, even with the yata mirror.

      And in SM Naruto can just do what Kabuto did and either sense the genjutsu or be smart enough to not look Itachi in the eyes. In SM Naruto can fight with his eyes closed i'd wager. Amaterasu get's sensed out and dodged. Even the forth raikage dodged amaterasu with pure speed, without any sensing. Naruto dodged the third raikage at full speed, as a shadow clone.

      And yes, Naruto does have SP in base. Him and Sasuke can sense each other out even when they are in different dimensions. Sasuke is no sensor whatsoever, but he still sensed Naruto from another dimension. So they both have SP chakra.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote:

      Sasuke is no sensor whatsoever, but he still sensed Naruto from another dimension. So they both have SP chakra.
      

      That wasn't because of SP chakra, but because both Naruto and Sasuke possess the power of their marks which they got from Hagoromo(power only, not the marks themselves, because thay can't do SPCT anymore), Zetsu too said that they are linked thrugh these marks.

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    • Wrong.Sasuke sensed Naruto in Boruto the movie as well. He is the one who said that he can still sense Naruto's chakra (and that he is alive),despite Naruto being in Momoshiki's dimension.

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    • Sasuke was able to sese Naruto through the link they have(the power of their marks).

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    • Anime2lover wrote: Sasuke was able to sese Naruto through the link they have(the power of their marks).

      They lost them.

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    • They lost the marks and the ability to perform SPCT, but not the ability to sense themselves and their powers.

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    • Yes, because they both have six path chakra.C'mon...

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    • the last Naruto has sm naruto feats so... so give sm 'sm' and u get kage Naruto in sm. itachi cant handle it.

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    • lol.

      Did base Naruto not create the Rasengan that sent Momoshiki to the outer space?

      He obviously fodderstomps itachi like a bug. He probably wouldn't even notice that he even crushed him. Not more than how a human wouldn't notice that s/he stepped on an ant.

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    • Used all of his chakra though.

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    • Yeah, but he was weakened as hell to begin with. Tanking a huge ass bijuu dama, then getting his chakra absorbed for who knows how long, fighting Momoshiki, getting impaled by 5-6 rinnegan chakra receivers and then creating a huge ultra big ball rasengan. And i don't remember mentioning to have used up all his chakra. He was near his limit, regardless. But it's understandable.

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    • Wanted to say remaining.And Kimoshiki only got hit cause sasuke distracted him at the end.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Wanted to say remaining.And Kimoshiki only got hit cause sasuke distracted him at the end.

      It doesn't matter why he got hit what Rex and Vlad are alluding to is the magnitude and destructive impact of the attack whilst he was in a weakened base mode state. kimoshiki was a god so what chance does itachi have.

      And it was never said he use all his chakra remaining or otherwise don't know why you always insert fiction.

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    • Just to clarify. Kurama's healing powers or SPSM healing isn't included right?(or any form of Kurama interference) So This like 50-50 I Guess Afterall Itachi hits him with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu its over for Naruto. Also Exploding Shadow clones could do the trick here. Whereas Naruto's improved power seems more like Jiraiya or Minato perhaps.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Just to clarify. Kurama's healing powers or SPSM healing isn't included right?(or any form of Kurama interference) So This like 50-50 I Guess Afterall Itachi hits him with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu its over for Naruto. Also Exploding Shadow clones could do the trick here. Whereas Naruto's improved power seems more like Jiraiya or Minato perhaps.

      He has uzumaki vitality, we don't know much this increased as an adult also it is highly unlikely that itachi would be fast enough to hit him remember how fast naruto was in apprehending boruto during the defacing of the hokage monument by feats hokage naruto in base is faster than itachi.

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    • And he has SM which increased resistance a lot. And he is an Uzumaki, and he could even temporary survive a tailed beast extraction. And has six paths chakra, and he is a reincarnation of the guy who inherited the Sage's body.

      Amaterasu would most likely kill him, no question, since it burns forever, but the explosive shadow clone won't do to much. But in SM amaterasu surly doesn't land, the same for totsuka blade. And on top of having better feats in almost every departament, except genjutsu obviously, Naruto also has the advantage in numbers. As a teen, one of his shadow clones could defeat the third raikage with intel. Another shadow clone created a bunch of shadow clones who could stop even Madara's deep forest with a rasengan barrage, and he wasn't even in SM. It was stated that he can easily make a 1000 shadow clones in Boruto. Itachi's biggest thing here is the susanoo, but again, even Toneri's TSB were destroyed by Naruto's rasengans.

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    • yeah, u people are trying to legitimately make itachi win against 2000 sage naruto's throwing rasenshurikens...

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    • Ninjachris wrote: He has uzumaki vitality, we don't know much this increased as an adult also it is highly unlikely that itachi would be fast enough to hit him remember how fast naruto was in apprehending boruto during the defacing of the hokage monument by feats hokage naruto in base is faster than itachi.

      Well would he be as fast as Kyubi mode? In base that is? I don't think so. That seems quite too much. That's like fastest ninja at base
      Well Every Body flicker is that fast there is no way to know how fast it actually was unless used in a fight.

      Vladosaurus wrote: And he has SM which increased resistance a lot. And he is an Uzumaki, and he could even temporary survive a tailed beast extraction. And has six paths chakra, and he is a reincarnation of the guy who inherited the Sage's body.

      Isn't he half Uzumaki? And Unlike Kushina who was conscious for several minutes may be 1-2 hours Naruto instantly fainted. And Sakura was pumping his heart to keep himalive with Medical Ninjutsu.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Amaterasu would most likely kill him, no question, since it burns forever, but the explosive shadow clone won't do to much. But in SM amaterasu surly doesn't land, the same for totsuka blade. And on top of having better feats in almost every departament, except genjutsu obviously, Naruto also has the advantage in numbers. As a teen, one of his shadow clones could defeat the third raikage with intel. Another shadow clone created a bunch of shadow clones who could stop even Madara's deep forest with a rasengan barrage, and he wasn't even in SM. It was stated that he can easily make a 1000 shadow clones in Boruto. Itachi's biggest thing here is the susanoo, but again, even Toneri's TSB were destroyed by Naruto's rasengans.

      If I remember correctly last time Itachi used Amaterasu to burn the field as well, Now that does pack some punch. Two it's not like normal shadow clones cannot be effected by Genjutsu and Itachi's clone can too get him in Genjutsus. Also Itachi also has some skill with Sharingan, Since he did find the original Naruto and gave him Shisui's eye before dying.
      Explosive Shadow clone should take out couple of them together and if he gets the real one the real one might die.
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    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Well would he be as fast as Kyubi mode? In base that is? I don't think so. That seems quite too much. That's like fastest ninja at base Well Every Body flicker is that fast there is no way to know I how fast it actually was unless used in a fight.

      The technique naruto used was never named you are assuming its body flicker, another thing to consider is the distance naruto covered body flicker was only shown to be used in short distances in a fight. Even if he is half uzumaki it does not change the fact that he is ashura's transmigrant who has been repeatedly stated to have high vitality and chakra reserves of his own

      Explosive shadow clones are not going to catch much less do any significant damage to an adult naruto. The same cannot be said for itachi almost all of naruto's attack can oneshot him.

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    • explosive clones wont even damage him. he tanked momo's kick (and although momo is weaker than kinshiki, he cant be any weaker than 1st juubito, so just use logic, and u can tell that Naruto cant be damaged in this fight. especially in sm)

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      The technique naruto used was never named you are assuming its body flicker, another thing to consider is the distance naruto covered body flicker was only shown to be used in short distances in a fight. Even if he is half uzumaki it does not change the fact that he is ashura's transmigrant who has been repeatedly stated to have high vitality and chakra reserves of his own
      It was teleportation / Body Flicker. You can check out fight with Raikage or when he first awakens KCM. However you are avoiding my question.
      Even if I were to consider Ashura's prowess the very best Naruto would be at this stage be at best an equivalent of SM Kabuto. I think so as foe Itachi can take him. And it's not like in base he can necessarily survive strong genjutsus. This includes even finger ones as well.

      Ninjachris wrote:

      Explosive shadow clones are not going to catch much less do any significant damage to an adult naruto. The same cannot be said for itachi almost all of naruto's attack can oneshot him.

      Shouldn't Exploding Shadow clone be capable of taking down base naruto Afterall base naruto or most Ninjas in their base die with being hit by paper bombs?
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      It was teleportation / Body Flicker. You can check out fight with Raikage or when he first awakens KCM. However you are avoiding my question.
      Even if I were to consider Ashura's prowess the very best Naruto would be at this stage be at best an equivalent of SM Kabuto. I think so as foe Itachi can take him. And it's not like in base he can necessarily survive strong genjutsus. This includes even finger ones as well.

      Your question doesn't make sense since we're talking about base hokage naruto, KCM is really overkill for itachi, and again we do not know what speed tech naruto used and even if it was body flicker it his highly likely that naruto improved it over the years like he has always done with his techs. You know like minato did with ftg. Just because it's the same tech doesn't mean it's at the same level.

      And I don't know how in the world you can compare a ashura (body of the SOSP) to sm kabuto that's laughable. His vitality/healing is near hashi, and naruto is the closest thing to hashi/ashura. Why don't we talk about itachi's durability it's basically fodder level before naruto's attacks.

      Naruto isn't getting caught in any genjutsu from itachi sorry, not with his superior speed, sensory abilities and experience fighting way superior wielders.


      Shouldn't Exploding Shadow clone be capable of taking down base naruto Afterall base naruto or most Ninjas in their base die with being hit by paper bombs?

      Again naruto isn't most ninjas thought that was an established fact even Without KCM a paper bomb isn't going to harm the ashura reincarnate. When naruto was in his infancy stage of learning SM he fell stories unto a pointed rock and it didn't scratch him, what is a paper bomb supposed to do to a matured naruto whose mastery of SM exceeds his predecessors that's an illogical argument.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      It was teleportation / Body Flicker. You can check out fight with Raikage or when he first awakens KCM. However you are avoiding my question.
      Even if I were to consider Ashura's prowess the very best Naruto would be at this stage be at best an equivalent of SM Kabuto. I think so as foe Itachi can take him. And it's not like in base he can necessarily survive strong genjutsus. This includes even finger ones as well.

      Lol what? At best equivalent of SM Kabuto?

      Naruto created and threw a Rasenshuriken in midair with no clones, one hand, and not even SM. Overall, Naruto as a Hokage is just too powerful for Itachi.

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    • ``Finger one as well``.You relaise the only genjutsu that could possibly work is Tsukuyomi right?

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: ``Finger one as well``.You relaise the only genjutsu that could possibly work is Tsukuyomi right?

      Um, but why? I mean why?When did Naruto ever showed any genjutsu resistence? Even with Kurama, he never showed a chance of that genjutsu immunity.Yet now without Kurama, Naruto is able to resist it? In what way, bro?Even Jiraya as old and experienced he was(like Naruto)Wasn't able to learn genjutsi resistence.Why Naruto?

      AsianReaper wrote

      Lol what? At best equivalent of SM Kabuto?

      Naruto created and threw a Rasenshuriken in midair with no clones, one hand, and not even SM. Overall, Naruto as a Hokage is just too powerful for Itachi.

      Too powerful? yes.But undefeateble? Nah, not without Kurama.

      Itachi has shown that he's more of the type of a guy who uses brains against people who have more power than him.He's more like a Shikamaru but with more skills and powers.And Resenshuriken, as you mentioned would be pointless with Itachi's Susanoo shield.

      @Vlad. Yes, Naruto's Rasengan broke through Toneri's TSB.But I think, that was mostly because of sage chakra.TSBs can only be destroyed by it.So making it seem like a power feat, is well, a bit wrong.

      Any technique with tremendous power will not hurt Ten tails Jinchuriki, without Sage chakra(Or SP),yet a small sage chakra infused jutsu could do better damage than the former. So in my belief, it's not a power feat.

      But yes, it still can break Susanoo.But Itachi can escape as soon as possible.And let's skip all the other techniques I mentioned in my previous post.

      Itachi still has Izanami.If as you would say, Naruto attacks him with Rasengan.And Itachi will Susanoo as a shield and jump back and form back again.He can atleast play Naruto till he falls in it.And even if you say, Naruto can't be affected by it.He'll still have to take time in escaping it.And Itachi needs only a few seconds for Amaterasu.

      So again, Naruto has more chances of winning.But Itachi still has his chances.

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    • But if we go by that logic, Itachi has his fair chance of winning against anybody. Totsuka blade will seal anybody who MAYBE isn't a TTJ, and amaterasu will burn to death anybody who isn't a TTJ or who can't absorb/repel jutsu. Even in the later case it can still win.

      Fact of the matter is that against certain opponents these attacks are very very unlikely to land.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      Kakashisologod1 wrote: ``Finger one as well``.You relaise the only genjutsu that could possibly work is Tsukuyomi right?

      Um, but why? I mean why?When did Naruto ever showed any genjutsu resistence? Even with Kurama, he never showed a chance of that genjutsu immunity.Yet now without Kurama, Naruto is able to resist it? In what way, bro?Even Jiraya as old and experienced he was(like Naruto)Wasn't able to learn genjutsi resistence.Why Naruto?

      AsianReaper wrote

      Lol what? At best equivalent of SM Kabuto?

      Naruto created and threw a Rasenshuriken in midair with no clones, one hand, and not even SM. Overall, Naruto as a Hokage is just too powerful for Itachi.

      Too powerful? yes.But undefeateble? Nah, not without Kurama.

      Itachi has shown that he's more of the type of a guy who uses brains against people who have more power than him.He's more like a Shikamaru but with more skills and powers.And Resenshuriken, as you mentioned would be pointless with Itachi's Susanoo shield.

      @Vlad. Yes, Naruto's Rasengan broke through Toneri's TSB.But I think, that was mostly because of sage chakra.TSBs can only be destroyed by it.So making it seem like a power feat, is well, a bit wrong.

      Any technique with tremendous power will not hurt Ten tails Jinchuriki, without Sage chakra(Or SP),yet a small sage chakra infused jutsu could do better damage than the former. So in my belief, it's not a power feat.

      But yes, it still can break Susanoo.But Itachi can escape as soon as possible.And let's skip all the other techniques I mentioned in my previous post.

      Itachi still has Izanami.If as you would say, Naruto attacks him with Rasengan.And Itachi will Susanoo as a shield and jump back and form back again.He can atleast play Naruto till he falls in it.And even if you say, Naruto can't be affected by it.He'll still have to take time in escaping it.And Itachi needs only a few seconds for Amaterasu.

      So again, Naruto has more chances of winning.But Itachi still has his chances.

      Naruto is far too good a sensor to fall for when his chakra is being manipulated now. And he can sense the when Itachi will attempt these and avoid it all together. Even as a teen, Naruto reacted to things much faster than any attack Itachi has. Namely, the Third Raikage.

      If you want a durability feat for those TSB, TSB have tankes a giant Senjutsu Rasengan made by Naruto, Minato, and both halves of Kurama. So Naruto managing it now just proves his improvement in power and precision. The TSBs are still durable. It's just that they can literally nullify Ninjutsu, so they don't have to use that durability often.

      The Rasenshuriken is far from useless. Why did I mention he could make it extremely quickly with no clones and one hand and give it a guided throw? Because litearlly all Naruto has to do is make 10 clones and throw it from all angles. The Yata Mirrow can't deflect them all. And we saw exactly how strong the Rasenshuriken is when Naruto wants it to be; he basically stomped Kurama into the ground with the technique. Susanoo of Itachi's level doesn't have Tailed Beast durability. THat thing's going to get eviscorated, then the rest of the Rasenshurikens will close in and cut off his ability to use chakra.

      Hokage Naruto doesn't lose to anyone on Itachi's level, strong as Itachi is. Without SM, I guess I can see him having a chance. But SM Hokage Naruto... it's just kind of a mid-low diff battle tbh.

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    • One Senjutsu enhanced big ball rasenshuriken might be enough to destroy Itachi's Susanoo, even with Yata mirror. It was powerful enough to restrain EDO Madara and to destroy 2 of Hashirama's wood dragons at the same time.

      Again, as i said, much like the TSB, i don't see the yata mirror standing tall against powerful senjutsu attacks. It might be able to change it's chakra nature in order to counter most jutsu's, but it is not imune to senjutsu, most definitely.

      Even if big ball rasenshuriken might not be enough to destroy both the susanoo and yata mirror, there is ultra big ball rasenshuriken in line, or couple of them thrown at the same time.Yata mirror is also in frot of the susanoo, and considerint Naruto's clear advantage in numbers thanks to his shadow clones, he can just sent some of them behind itachi and attack.

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    • If I'm not mistaken, Yata Mirror appears that it can only block attacks from one direction. From the magnitude of power the Rasenshuriken exhibited against Kurama (push force, as well as cutting power), and the Massive Rasengan (the thing cut through massive thick solid landmass and still contained enough force to propel Kimo into the stratosphere) used against Kimoshiki without Senjutsu enhancement, Itachi's Susanno will not be able to survive or tank such an attack.

      Landing genjutsu and explosive clone techniques on an expert sensor that is as fast or faster than Itachi himself would be extremely difficult, but not impossible. Given the chances, Itachi would most likely abandon it as a main strategy.

      Given that Naruto has more initial knowledge on Itachi's abilities than Itachi has on him, he gains an advantage at the start of the fight. At this point, Naruto has more knowledge on the mechanics of the Sharingan than Itachi himself does, and Naruto would not be surprised or shocked at the appearance of Sussano, which is Itachi's final trump card.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: amaterasu will burn to death anybody who isn't a TTJ or who can't absorb/repel jutsu. Even in the later case it can still win.

      The Raikage was able to dodge it and so was Sasuke. Naruto was able to repel it as a Jinchuriki, simply by activating his chakra cloak and discarding the chakra.

      Sasuke was also able to overcome it by body replacement.

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    • I said if it lands, which is unlikely against top notch opponents.

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      Your question doesn't make sense since we're talking about base hokage naruto, KCM is really overkill for itachi, and again we do not know what speed tech naruto used and even if it was body flicker it his highly likely that naruto improved it over the years like he has always done with his techs.
      Can you improve a jutsu maybe. But a basic one like Shadow clone or Body flicker is less likely to be improved. Timing, Mastery Yes you can improve it but jutsu by itself its unlikely. Also this is riding on an assumption that Naruto made some progress on those areas.
      I didn't Say Hokage Naruto using KCM, I said What is Base Naruto's speed? Is it equal to Shippuden Naruto's KCM. Because that's quite hard to believe. That would imply Naruto is fastest Ninja in Base, Even the Raikage can't claim something like that.

      Ninjachris wrote: And I don't know how in the world you can compare a ashura (body of the SOSP) to sm kabuto that's laughable. His vitality/healing is near hashi, and naruto is the closest thing to hashi/ashura. Why don't we talk about itachi's durability it's basically fodder level before naruto's attacks.

      Is it? Kabuto has probably best healing. He has hashi's cells, Jugo, Orochimaru and Karin's Powers still think My estimate is way off?

      Ninjachris wrote:

      Naruto isn't getting caught in any genjutsu from itachi sorry, not with his superior speed, sensory abilities and experience fighting way superior wielders.
      Well Itachi did keep up with KCM naruto quite easily. So I don't think its quite the advantage Naruto has there.

      Ninjachris wrote:

      Again naruto isn't most ninjas thought that was an established fact even Without KCM a paper bomb isn't going to harm the ashura reincarnate. When naruto was in his infancy stage of learning SM he fell stories unto a pointed rock and it didn't scratch him, what is a paper bomb supposed to do to a matured naruto whose mastery of SM exceeds his predecessors that's an illogical argument.
      SM Naruto surviving paper bomb is believable, But Base not so much. Without some kind of Armor or Chakra protecting ninja it would be quite hard to believe. Also Just so you know Edo Hashirama and Tobirama's body were blown up with paper bomb which means it is fatal for base ninjas.


      To be very Honest I think Naruto might have improved Genjutsu weakness. In fact in all my statements I haven't accounted for the frogs. Having said that I think Naruto should take it mid difficulty

      AsianReaper wrote: Lol what? At best equivalent of SM Kabuto? Naruto created and threw a Rasenshuriken in midair with no clones, one hand, and not even SM. Overall, Naruto as a Hokage is just too powerful for Itachi.

      Where would you put Sage mode Naruto than? His Senjutsu can't better than Kabuto.
      Rasenshuriken feat is really good but no way do we know how much naruto has improved in Genjutsu?

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    • @NamikazeNaruto,

      His Senjutsu probably is better than Kabuto's. While he can't passively draw in Nature Energy, it takes him very little time to do so. With his clones, he shouldn't have a problem.

      And his actual usage of Sage Mode is arguably the most mastered out of anyone. At least by the time he was Hokage. Kabuto doesn't have nearly enough experience to put him on par with it.

      As far as Genjutsu, I'm pretty sure that Naruto can sense when it's going to be cast in order to avoid it. And even if he couldn't I feel there's a reason Sasuke chose to use Genjutsu on all the Tailed Beasts, but not Naruto in their final fight. His new mastery over chakra in general would likely mean that he's able to disrupt his own chakra to release the Genjutsu much better than before.

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    • I like how we are assuming that Naruto will be the one having a hard time dealing with Itachi's shadow clone. It's not like shadow clones are Naruto's speciality and that Itachi is actually the one who will struggle with Naruto's shadow clones. Oh, wait...

      And when was it stated that Kabuto's Sage Mode was superior? His biggest thing was the fact that he had the surroundings advantage and was able to manipulate his cave. You put him in an opened field and he is reduced pretty much.

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    • @namikazinaruto9 I still can’t fathom you actually trying to compare Kabuto to naruto who has the SOSP body durability wise. Kabuto is a watered down Frankenstein while naruto is on par with Hashirama. Currently until shown otherwise naruto has the by far the greatest durability in the narutoverse and IMO next level is Sasuke and itachi did no notable damage to Kabuto.

      Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t itachi keep up with a teenage naruto so I guess an adult physically stronger naruto will be just as fast right?

      Base adult naruto is leagues ahead of itachi durability wise, naruto is one of the physically strongest ninja alive when it come to brute strength and durability. Itachi was never known for any of this and in addition the OP said naruto was allowed to use SM

      Ain’t no way itachi winning this fight.

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    • Next in the line of durability would be Bee, for obvious reasons, if we count the chakra mode.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: @namikazinaruto9 I still can’t fathom you actually trying to compare Kabuto to naruto who has the SOSP body durability wise. Kabuto is a watered down Frankenstein while naruto is on par with Hashirama. Currently until shown otherwise naruto has the by far the greatest durability in the narutoverse and IMO next level is Sasuke and itachi did no notable damage to Kabuto.

      And when did Base Naruto showed any feat on par with Hashirama? OR that SOSP body without SPSM?
      Kabuto's body potential was on par with anyone in the series. In terms of ability and potential he's leagues ahead of Naruto without Kurama. By the way Frankenstein Monster was unstoppable, none of the Humans were capable of stopping him. He killed himself. Thank you for making my point.

      Ninjachris wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t itachi keep up with a teenage naruto so I guess an adult physically stronger naruto will be just as fast right?

      Base adult naruto is leagues ahead of itachi durability wise, naruto is one of the physically strongest ninja alive when it come to brute strength and durability. Itachi was never known for any of this and in addition the OP said naruto was allowed to use SM

      Ain’t no way itachi winning this fight.

      That's the Big question I asked you. Is KCM naruto stronger or Base Adult Naruto? Both power and speed wise. According to me I don't think so. Also Normal SM takes few secs to activate enough for Amaterasu too hit. He has only one option of using shadow clones but most of them will be blown away by Exploding ones from Itachi. Still think it should be some what difficult for Naruto to win

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    • Itachi is not on par in speed with KCM Naruto.Just because Naruto fought with him in taijutsu while talking to him doesn't mean that they are at the same speed. Naruto could dodge the 4th raikage at full speed, with speed and nothing else. Teleportation jutsu or not, he still did it. Itachi would not be able to do it with just speed or sunshin, not even close. So please, give me a break.

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    • Chakra cloak-----amaterasu rendered useless.Naruto is faster than itachi.His Rasengan also destroyed entire Shinju trunk.If he can find angle where YM isnt prottecting..GG itachi.

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    • @namikazinaruto9

      Stopping a moon splitting beam from a Toneri who happened to be in a SPM. And he may have channeled Kurama’s chakra but it doesn’t mean he couldn’t do the same with his own and how can you assess how close his body is to Hashirama/ashura if he always had Kurama even when in base. The fact remains he his ashura reincarnation who is known to have possibly the strongest body, no matter how well nagato used the rinnegan he could never wield it like madara or Sasuke same goes for Kabuto. And What feats of durability does Kabuto even have?? What massive attack did he tank?? Kabuto is fodder compared to naruto where durability is concerned.

      When naruto went against the fourth he was seen running, then when A punched a yellow flash was seen and naruto ended up right behind A comparing that with what he did to catch boruto, considering he had to cover a large distance and he appeared in an instant. Hokage Naruto in his base mode is faster than teenage KCM naruto.

      Naruto was shown to instantly go into SM now as shown in the nue arc.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Chakra cloak-----amaterasu rendered useless.Naruto is faster than itachi.His Rasengan also destroyed entire Shinju trunk.If he can find angle where YM isnt prottecting..GG itachi.

      Chakra cloak from whom no Kurama in the fight.
      Susanoo by itself is good enough to knock projectiles out of trajectory no need of YM

      Ninjachris wrote: @namikazinaruto9

      Stopping a moon splitting beam from a Toneri who happened to be in a SPM. And he may have channeled Kurama’s chakra but it doesn’t mean he couldn’t do the same with his own and how can you assess how close his body is to Hashirama/ashura if he always had Kurama even when in base. The fact remains he his ashura reincarnation who is known to have possibly the strongest body, no matter how well nagato used the rinnegan he could never wield it like madara or Sasuke same goes for Kabuto. And What feats of durability does Kabuto even have?? What massive attack did he tank?? Kabuto is fodder compared to naruto where durability is concerned.
      Channeled? Didn't he concentrate all his KCM chakra into his arms?
      Kabuto possess the best body simply because he has an Ashura's reincarnation's cell graft whose potential was more than even Naruto's. And other than that he possess several modification like Karin's cells( whose ability can beat even Wood Release), Jugo's ability (ability to form body parts-Animal parts by passively absorbing NE), Orochimaru's Poison resistance ability, His own Exceptional healing powers that almost healed Rasengan damage, Suigetsu's liquefaction ability, Sound -5s ability. Still do you think Naruto has better powers without Kurama?

      Ninjachris wrote: When naruto went against the fourth he was seen running, then when A punched a yellow flash was seen and naruto ended up right behind A comparing that with what he did to catch boruto, considering he had to cover a large distance and he appeared in an instant. Hokage Naruto in his base mode is faster than teenage KCM naruto. Naruto was shown to instantly go into SM now as shown in the nue arc.

      He isn't. And two what does running have to do with Body flicker. And two don't pretend like it was very far. Boruto was on Hokage's face carving which isn't far from the office. IT does take him few secs still.(even in nue arc) Which he won't get in hand to hand combat.

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    • @namikazinaruto9

      1. Naruto running and being able to see his yellow flash means it could not have be faster than what he did with boruto since he was still visible. And again how you do know for a fact that that was body flicker, the distance between the office and monument is larger than the any distance BF was used but feel free to provide evidence to the contrary, happy to explain.

      2. So like I guessed you padded the fact that Kabuto has absolutely zero feats of durability with speculative theories but require one from naruto, then you say that he has a stronger body than naruto based your opinion/speculation. Do you know the quantity or quality of the grafts Kabuto used? All grafts Zetsu etc other than naruto’s arm have been repeatedly shown to be weak and extremely easy to destroy.

      Do you know what percentage of his body, we know that naruto is 100% SOSP body and probably to a greater degree than Hashirama was since his body is also infused with pure SP chakra. Who said Hashirama’s body was superior to naruto’s, his body is more sort after for WR than anything, he augmented his healing with a tech the same that tsunade uses so how do you know his vitality is greater than naruto. What feats of durability does he have that are greater than naruto’s?? but here you making a blanket statement to argue a point which has repeatedly been proven to be ridiculous.

      3. After naruto and kakashi speak he goes into SM mode in and instant. And even if it takes a couple of seconds as you erroneously claim then it’s still faster than the time it takes to activate Susanoo or to focus on a target to use ameretsu or to used genjutsu, so that’s simply irrelevant.

      Naruto wins probably mid or less difficult 10/10.

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    • @AsianReaper.Um,what about sensors like Kabuto and Nagato? Kabuto literally closed his sight or something, so to avoid genjutsu.And Nagato was caught by a very slow genjutsu.

      I don't think Toneri's TSB is equal to a Ten tails jinchuriki's.They certainly have they're difference in power.One of you might come and say that Toneri sliced off the moon.But I'm gonna say that a number of a few hundred or something common shinobies charged they're chakra together enough to destroy the moon.So there's that.

      While Itachi isn't dumb enough to jusy stand there in the middle of a fight.I would like to point out that base naruto's clones never shown a feat of using RS.Not that I would be surprised.But they never shown.As long as now, only base Naruto could perform RS.Not his clones.So I don't think Itachi's gonna Rasenshurikens surrounded over him.He'll only face One RS only.I think he can manage that.

      @Vlad.Itachi's jutsus does have the potentiel to defeat most of the top ten opponents.But ONLY if it's hit.Though in most case everyone above Nagato can't be defeated by it, at they're complete strength.

      Now, I don't wanna go round and round in this debate.So I'm just gonna piint two things that I think gives Itachi a chance of winning as well.One is, that like it or not, Naruto has knowledge about Itachi yet Itachi doesn't have much on him.

      If this fight parhaps went with a, "No intel between each other" kind of fight.That is neither Naruto nor Itachi knowing each other's abilities, to the point where it should be foreign to each other.Probably considering it as a alternate dimension, with Naruto never meeting the Uchihas, nor they him.Like some past debates in here.

      I think then, Itachi would have the advantage.Since he catches his opponents in genjutsu at the beginning itself.And Naruto not knowing would fall for it.Even with his sensing abilities, how fast could he sense, the Sharingan, being activated and casted at the same minute?

      2.Remember people get used to their habits.Naruto with the help of Kurama and his opponents weirdly not using their genjutsu abilities against him, gave him the luxary of fighting freely, without the worry of falling into a illusion.And he probably would not evade the Sharingan as his force of habit.It happens even with the praticed ones.

      Like how Sasuke used Genjutsu on Danzo and Deidera.And Bee(I think he got caught for a second).It becomes a force of habit for them.And it'll end in they're defeat.

      That's how I think, the series pratically makes it.I mean, we know in a pratical way, it is possible.Naruto by his force of habit, with the comfort and protection Kurama gave him.Will not remember to evade it, before it's too late.

      Well that and some other chances are the only thing Itachi has.While again Naruto has more chances.And I guess, I won't be able to reply back.So Peace.

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    • Amaterasu also has delay before its fired.Sasuke was able to dodge it,who was at that time league below naruto in speed.And Armored susano cant tank multiple RS.@Blaze when naruto was,along with sasuke,destroying CT`s from madara,i think he used shadowclones to send multiple RS`s.

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    • Naruto's clone used it against the 3rd Raikage, and in the Kaguya fight.

      Chakra isn't a problem either, since his clones have displayed multiple times their chakra reserves are Kage tier.

      Adult Naruto seems to only spam clones when either massively outnumbered, or he decides he needs to completely overwhelm his opponent through sheer offense. Otherwise he seldom seems to use it in battle against single targets...

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    • @Blaze Release

      I'm not sure but I think only Nagato's body has sensing. The other bodies never displayed it. And Kabuto closed his eyes to avoid Genjutsu, yes. That means Naruto can too. Madara demonstrated that you can fight with no eyes if you have Sage Mode.

      The TSBs are very likely similar in power. Nothing suggests they weren't.

      I really have no idea why you don't think that Naruto's clones can't use Rasenshuriken, based on how easily he managed it himself. And that was when he was 19; he wasn't even Hokage yet. No, Naruto can have his clones use it.

      Yes, Itachi generally won't stand still, but I was talking about when he has Susanoo activated. And we already know he's not as mobile as the third Raikage while using Susanoo. Yeah, Itachi will get hit. And from all sides.

      This fight isn't about no intel. We have the specifications on the fight, so anything other than those specifications are moot.

      Naruto has knowledge on Tsukuyomi. He'll know to avoid it at all costs. And with his sensing, he can avoid it.

      In fact, when they were fighting Itachi as an edo and Naruto was in NINE TAILS CHAKRA MODE, he was telling Bee to avoid it at all costs. So yeah, no matter what form of Naruto it is, he KNOWS to avoid the Genjutsu

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    • @Ninjachris
      I am not entirely convinced about your Body flicker stuff. Maybe it might be different jutsu.
      You want proof about Hashirama's cells being better than Naruto's? Well for starters, Naruto is half uzumaki where as Hashirama epitome of Senjus. His cells enable people to survive even without Food or Water.
      Lastly Itachi like Kakashi has shown to have reacted to Lightning(Kirin). He can easily take on Naruto's speed.

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    • So, Itachi could react to lighting, but he couldn't react to Kabuto, on multiple occasions as well. I guess Kabuto is faster than Kirin.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: So, Itachi could react to lighting, but he couldn't react to Kabuto, on multiple occasions as well. I guess Kabuto is faster than Kirin.

      Do you mind recollecting a few? I don't remember multiple, Only 1-2. One was when he used that Light Sound jutsu and second was when he stabs Itachi with Sasuke's sword.
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    • Those and there were other situations.

      Not to mention that Itachi's feat with the Susanoo in that particular moment made 0 sense.

      So you mean to tell me that Itachi, with barley any chakra left who had already exhausted his eyes beyond everything he ever did before, who spammed amaterasu like crazy, and also used tsukuyomi, had enough power to conjure and fight with a full armored Susanoo? After also being canceled out by Kirin? That was one of the biggest asspulls in the whole series.

      And by the way, ignoring the fact that i made no sense at all, Sasuke did take a while to fire the Kirin. By that a i mean that although he formed Kirin for Itachi to see it, it took him couple of seconds to send it to the ground, giving Itachi plenty of time to prepare for the impact.

      Itachi is not as fast as the fans make him to.And his reactions are based on his sharingan, NOT on his speed. It's actually a combination of both obviously, but like Sasuke, he clearly relies on his sharingan most of the times. And the sharingan was tricked and/or outpowered many times before.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote:

      Those and there were other situations.
      As far as I see Itachi had no problems about being stabbed since now he was an edo. The first one I agree fair and square Kabuto maneuvered him but that doesn't make Kabuto faster than Lightning.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Not to mention that Itachi's feat with the Susanoo in that particular moment made 0 sense.

      So you mean to tell me that Itachi, with barley any chakra left who had already exhausted his eyes beyond everything he ever did before, who spammed amaterasu like crazy, and also used tsukuyomi, had enough power to conjure and fight with a full armored Susanoo? After also being canceled out by Kirin? That was one of the biggest asspulls in the whole series.

      Well how do you know his chakra reserves exhausted. Were you there measuring it or was there any explicit statement? Yes there were heavy back lash from using MS techniques but they were mostly pain from using them. Two after that he goes on to fight Orochimaru and seal him which clearly shows he had enough reserves.

      Vladosaurus wrote: And by the way, ignoring the fact that i made no sense at all, Sasuke did take a while to fire the Kirin. By that a i mean that although he formed Kirin for Itachi to see it, it took him couple of seconds to send it to the ground, giving Itachi plenty of time to prepare for the impact.

      Itachi is not as fast as the fans make him to.And his reactions are based on his sharingan, NOT on his speed. It's actually a combination of both obviously, but like Sasuke, he clearly relies on his sharingan most of the times. And the sharingan was tricked and/or outpowered many times before.

      Kirin strikes while Sasuke is speaking his words and according to those panels Itachi didn't have Susanoo till kirin actually hit him. Two it's not that of an impossible feat if you consider Kakashi cutting Lightning. I don't recall many instances where Sharingan was tricked/Out powered.(actually can't recall any)
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    • I was not implying that Kabuto is faster than lighting. I was being ironic and wanted to prove how ridiculous some of you guys are with you speed and power scaling, and how you are only relying on a particular manga panels, although the manga has contradict itself many many times with different panels, that you just refuse to take in account for some (bias) reason.

      And yes, it is ridiculous what Itachi did. So, let me get this straight. In part 1, he had to completely shut his sharingan down because he used amaterasu and tsukuyomi in the same day.

      During his fight with Sasuke, he used tsukuyomi and he spammed amaterasu like a complete mad man. He used amaterasu non stop for a good amount of time. And that's on top of him using other jutsus as well, and on top of him actually being partial blind from the beginning of the fight.

      And it's not even like that Itachi from part 2 was in a better shape than part 1 Itachi, because according to the story, he progresevly got sicker and sicker.

      And you mean to tell me that after all of that, he was able to conjure a full armoured Susanoo, tank a Kirin and fight Orochimaru' snake for a good amount of time? Are you kidding me? And we know from Sasuke that even the lower level of Susanoo takes a hard hit on the user if he only has MS.

      I'm not buying it. For me it makes no sense.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: I was not implying that Kabuto is faster than lighting. I was being ironic and wanted to prove how ridiculous some of you guys are with you speed and power scaling, and how you are only relying on a particular manga panels, although the manga has contradict itself many many times with different panels, that you just refuse to take in account for some (bias) reason.

      And yes, it is ridiculous what Itachi did. So, let me get this straight. In part 1, he had to completely shut his sharingan down because he used amaterasu and tsukuyomi in the same day.

      During his fight with Sasuke, he used tsukuyomi and he spammed amaterasu like a complete mad man. He used amaterasu non stop for a good amount of time. And that's on top of him using other jutsus as well, and on top of him actually being partial blind from the beginning of the fight.

      And it's not even like that Itachi from part 2 was in a better shape than part 1 Itachi, because according to the story, he progresevly got sicker and sicker.

      And you mean to tell me that after all of that, he was able to conjure a full armoured Susanoo, tank a Kirin and fight Orochimaru' snake for a good amount of time? Are you kidding me? And we know from Sasuke that even the lower level of Susanoo takes a hard hit on the user if he only has MS.

      I'm not buying it. For me it makes no sense.

      First of all I don't know why you are arguing about stamina when you have given Edo like state.
      Whenever I give you any feat about anything about Itachi you say that its plot hole. Whether I talk about Kabuto Vs itachi, Or Sasuke Vs Itachi, Or Give you any speed feat. You keep comparing it to part-1 where he might not have mastered Tsukuyomi or MS. Also in Sasuke Vs Itachi(after Itachi uses Tsukuyomi) for brief moment the Sharingan is deactivated and Itachi is paralyzed with Backlash from the technique. In part-1 same thing happened but Itachi after this still uses amaterasu to quickly burn Jiraiya's toad(a complete wall sized hole) and escape. Perhaps Tsukuyomi requires lot more chakra then Amaterasu.
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    • Yes, becase as i said, it's BS. Because he couldn't react to Kabuto although he had EDO abilities that allowed him to use his MS without drawbacks, yet he could react to Kirin, weakened as hell, and already crushed by MS drawbacks. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Yet he could react to Kirin

      He didn't have to react to Kirin. He only had to keep an eye on Sasuke's hand and the moment it moved down, he would have to activate Susanoo. \

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @Ninjachris
      I am not entirely convinced about your Body flicker stuff. Maybe it might be different jutsu.
      You want proof about Hashirama's cells being better than Naruto's? Well for starters, Naruto is half uzumaki where as Hashirama epitome of Senjus. His cells enable people to survive even without Food or Water.
      Lastly Itachi like Kakashi has shown to have reacted to Lightning(Kirin). He can easily take on Naruto's speed.

      Uzumaki’s have been identified with the longest life span in the narutoverse (otsutsukis excluded) as in the case of Mito. When Mito was nearing death she personally chose Kushina to be the new 9tails jink whom even among Uzumakis had special chakra. Not much is known about the Namikaze Clan but they are known for speed and judging by minato probably strength and intellect also.

      So even among Uzumaki Naruto’s mother was exceptional and I’m guessing his father was the most exceptional Namikaze also. And being ashura’s transmigrant and subsequently inheriting the body of the SOSP trumps all.

      Minato(exceptional speed, exceptional sensory ability, possibly strength), Kushina(exceptional chakra and vitality even among Uzumaki), Ashura’s body infused directly with hags chakra this is naruto don’t you think hags chakra will amplify naruto’s body durability etc. And you claim Kabuto is more durable than him with zero feats to support that claim. Hashirama was the only person to use WR this is the main reason ppl experiment with his dna, the healing is good too but healing can be achieved without hashi cells while WR cannot. And we don’t know how much interest will be placed in naruto’s dna until he is dead.

      Lastly a hashi graft can’t compare to hashi himself, juugo’s clan is a subset of hags most likely ashura. No matter how much you mix the subsets it can’t amount to more or be greater than the original. Naruto is the original/universal set directly from the source.

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    • Itachi didn't react to Kirin. He had he Sharingan active and just saw Sasuke's hand coming down and activated accordingly, since Sasuke spelled out his jutsu before firing. So Itachi knew he needed his best defense

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    • @AsianReaper.If Naruto closes his eyes for the battle, then it'll obviously increase the chance for Itachi to strike him.

      Yes, Madara did show the feat with sage mode.But remember who he was.He was a just revived enhanced with Hashi cells body.He also had SP chakra due to him awakening Rinnegen.And he was an Uchiha.As in he dodged alot of Sasuke's attacks with his skills.You know the flexible/gymnastic/Acrobatic fighting style most of the Uchihas have.Yes, he was able to only sense it because of Sage mode.But even then, his skills helped him alot.Just saying.Do you think adult Sage Mode Naruto is stronger than that Madara?In terms of skills that is.

      Um, well, Obito used those TSBs to protect himself from the Ten tail's tailed beast balls blast, without it even breaking.So what would you say about that? Is Naruto's Rasengan stronger than the Ten tails TBB? Well,I off course think that there really is a power difference in both of they're TSBs.At one side, you have the most powerful form possible.Even stronger than the Sage.The Ten tails Jinchuriki mode.And then there is a person with probably equal strength to Hamura.So yeah, I think there is a difference.

      Um, I think the difficulty/mastery level of a jutsu goes to on from yourself to your clones.Like for instance.Naruto at first couldn't do it without his clones.And after and after he shown to be able to do it without his clones in modes and then shown mastery with it at base.Yet he never showed his clones to be able to use RS without any higher modes than SM.You can only have assumptions about it. While if you can agree on it.Then I guess you won't have a problem with acknowledging Itachi's shadow clones being able to use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.Considering he showed mastery with shadow clones as well.As a kid, he was able to use it on the fly.And as his skills and talent goes.He should be able to do it, right?

      Well, even if a situation comes with Itachi being infront of RS, then can't he just repel it back with a mix of amaterasu and fire release?Since as a Wind release jutsu,RS is also quite open to being send back at the user with a equally strong fire release.Which woukd be amaterasu.As Sasuke did it with his sharingan, helping him in pacing up the ratio.So wouldn't it backfire at Naruto?

      I know that this isn't that debate.But still, I was just pointing out a point.

      Doesn't everybody in the series know that Sharingan is not be looked at?It just so happens that everyone falls for it.As one can only control himself like that for a short time.Just as the necessary "Two person against one Uchiha" guideline came.Guy had to train himself at fighting with just feet, for who knows how long?And interestinly Bee already knew about the sharingan.Yet he fell for it, wonder how that came to be?And I believe, he was never given the info about the Jinchuriki Immunity at then.Not that, anyone even thought of using Genjutsu on him.

      And one more thing,I think it's fact that Naruto's training obviously stopped in after the movie.As he progresses on to be Hokage.Which results in him being less and less in training and become, as would some people say, a bit rusty.I think it's already been said by Boruto in the manga.That if you don't keep on training you will lose your ability or something to that rich kid, while training him.So yeah, I don't think judging Hokage Naruto to be way stronger than Last movie Naruto would be appropriate, just because of the age difference.Since as I said, he probably didn't train between that period onwards.

      And I have to agree on @Vlad.About the Susanoo thing.It seemed a bit off, for Itachi to have susanoo amount of chakra even with his sick state, and after alot of chakra expensive jutsus with a couple of fire releases and other genjutsus.That and him already possesing only a naturally small amount of chakra. Sasuke should have atleast how much chakra he had left,considering for the susanoo, it should be alot. But I guess, it could have been the powerscale difference between shippuden and the orginal series, like for the one tails and the summonings.

      Did Itachi even react to Kirin? I really don't think so.As others have pointed out.I think Itachi merely prepared his susanoo when Sasuke lowered his hands, in the most dramatic way, possible.I guess by then, everything went too bright for even Sasuke to see.And thay would be the moment Itachi releases susanoo.As we see, Itachi scared face becomes more and more consumed in brightness of Kirin.Though, Susanoo has shown in many scenes, to be instant in it's activation.Against Danzo,Sasuke activated it at the same second, the kunai came close.And against Raiakage as well.

      @Ninjachris.I really don't even think there is a real clan named Namikaze.Let alone have genetics for speed, strengtth and intellegence.

      Naruto's whole character was that he never properly inherited anything from his parents.Thus being talentless.Admitting that to the sage as well.His only main help was his chakra supply partly from Kurama and partly from Uzumaki heritage.

      And I really don't think Naruto nor Sasuke gets anything being transmigrants.I actually believe that it's more of a destiny/personality thing.Or else, Naruto and Sasuke should have been as strong as their preceders as children.Yet they werent.I really just think, it gives them some chakra feats and all.Not much than that, I guess.

      And obviously, Hashi was a whole different case, with his wood release and his chakra supply.Naruto most likely isn't the same case.

      These are all my opinions.And I most likely won't reply back.So Peace.

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    • @Blazerelease the wiki names some Namikaze and states that they are known for speed as far as transmigrants are concerned I don’t know what you are trying to say, when children are growing up they develop at different rates. Indra developed faster than ashura, Hashirama developed faster than madara and Sasuke developed faster than naruto, their development never had anything to do with the body/dna they inherited. Ashura already had the SOSP body despite his slow development the raw material was already there. Same goes for all who followed after. And that shows that their final outcome isn’t determined by development rate but by raw material and determination. Naruto has the SOSP body which is the strongest most durable body until stated otherwise and Sasuke possess the strongest eyes until stated otherwise,

      And again as I have stated numerous times naruto was never talentless or dumb, he was substantially abandoned at a very young age and Kurama messed with his chakra control. But once in his teenage years everyone started to realize that naruto was actually intelligent and talented starting with kakashi.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: Kurama messed with his chakra control.

      He didn't. The Five Element Seal was messing with it.

      Ninjachris wrote: And again as I have stated numerous times naruto was never talentless or dumb

      To some degree, he was dumb and talentless. he had no talent with elemental transformations nor talent for analysis. Naruto isn't a good abstract thinker. His lack of education definitely hurt, but we also plainly saw that Naruto doesn't think and work like others. It took a few years but he eventually learned to fight to his own strengths, something he was encouraged to do by Jiraiya.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Ninjachris wrote: Kurama messed with his chakra control.

      He didn't. The Five Element Seal was messing with it.

      Ninjachris wrote: And again as I have stated numerous times naruto was never talentless or dumb

      To some degree, he was dumb and talentless. he had no talent with elemental transformations nor talent for analysis. Naruto isn't a good abstract thinker. His lack of education definitely hurt, but we also plainly saw that Naruto doesn't think and work like others. It took a few years but he eventually learned to fight to his own strengths, something he was encouraged to do by Jiraiya.

      I am getting the feeling like I have thoroughly dealt with this erroneous misrepresentation of manga facts before. Oh yes! I refer to Boruto episode 25 discussion where I extensively proved it was Kuruma messing with his chakra control. Pay particular attention to my reply to posts 77 & 81, you must have selective memory since in post 77 I replied specifically to you and in 81 I gave manga chapter and page.

      Naruto was NEVER talentless or dumb, he was orphaned at birth placed in an apartment by himself without any consistent adult supervision, how can he think like others if he was never taught to think like others. What did all of. Naruto peers have in common? They all had parents and adult supervision even Sasuke up to a certain age. what did you expect him to teach himself at home? Later on when naruto is a teenager kakashi is impressed by his work ethic and intelligence.

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      I am getting the feeling like I have thoroughly dealt with this erroneous misrepresentation of manga facts before.

      As far as i remember, you never answered my question there. If Kurama is what reduces his chakra control, how can restoring Kurama's influence improved Naruto's chakra control? If Kurama is what reduces his chakra control, how come the 5 element seal worsened his control, since it prevented Kurama's chakra from mixing?

      On the other hand, Naruto demonstrated clear and massively improved control after the 5 element seal was broken. So Kakashi was wrong.

      Ninjachris wrote: Naruto was NEVER talentless or dumb

      Even during the 4th war, Naruto could come up with a complicated plan yet he couldn't articulate why it worked. He is not good at abstract thought or complex theory. He's a thoroughly intuitive thinker.

      Secondly, whether he's talentless depends on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of talent. He didn't really improve until Jiraiya taught him to play to his strengths. He didn't really display a talent for learning in any way. I've said this before, but someone like Kakashi could only train Chidori a few times per day due to reserves. Naruto trained Rasengan for most of the day, repeatedly, for days on end. Any other child would've died of chakra exhaustion. He has a knack for mischief, but he had years of practice. And while he defeated enemies through unconventional tactics, he could only pull them off due to his unusual situation. A normal ninja couldn't do half the stuff he pulled, which is why his normal enemies never expected it.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Ninjachris wrote:

      I am getting the feeling like I have thoroughly dealt with this erroneous misrepresentation of manga facts before.

      As far as i remember, you never answered my question there. If Kurama is what reduces his chakra control, how can restoring Kurama's influence improved Naruto's chakra control? If Kurama is what reduces his chakra control, how come the 5 element seal worsened his control, since it prevented Kurama's chakra from mixing?

      On the other hand, Naruto demonstrated clear and massively improved control after the 5 element seal was broken. So Kakashi was wrong.

      Ninjachris wrote: Naruto was NEVER talentless or dumb

      Even during the 4th war, Naruto could come up with a complicated plan yet he couldn't articulate why it worked. He is not good at abstract thought or complex theory. He's a thoroughly intuitive thinker.

      Secondly, whether he's talentless depends on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of talent. He didn't really improve until Jiraiya taught him to play to his strengths. He didn't really display a talent for learning in any way. I've said this before, but someone like Kakashi could only train Chidori a few times per day due to reserves. Naruto trained Rasengan for most of the day, repeatedly, for days on end. Any other child would've died of chakra exhaustion. He has a knack for mischief, but he had years of practice. And while he defeated enemies through unconventional tactics, he could only pull them off due to his unusual situation. A normal ninja couldn't do half the stuff he pulled, which is why his normal enemies never expected it.


      Wow! So now you are saying a stated manga fact is wrong lol. No you are the one Who is wrong, the manga is the source to establish facts not your erroneous opinion. Naruto was a child with an enormous malevolent being made of pure chakra sealed in him of course it was going to affect his chakra control. Naruto had problems molding chakra and especially with chakra control techs like walking on water long before oro even made an appearance in the manga kakashi being the highly intelligent and observant ninja he is figured out it was Kuruma. All oro did was make a bad situation worse. However as naruto grew so did his own chakra reserves and by sheer will and determination he improved and IMO over the years Kuruma started to admire even like naruto but just wouldn’t admit as shown when naruto just gained KCM and was supposed to die whenever he used too much chakra causing Kuruma to absorb his but Kuruma never did.

      A building is only good as it foundation ask any teacher and they will always say the most important time where learning is concerned of a child’s life is 1-5years old. Of course people can catch up later on but this is the period when the brain develops the most and naruto never had that. Name one other character who was an orphan from birth and abandoned like naruto who is highly intelligent. You can’t.

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    • So...are we still talking about Naruto vs Itachi...?

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    • Yes we are, people are trying to discredit various attributes of naruto to make it seem that itachi actually has a chance. Nonsensical Claims like Kabuto having a body that is more durable than naruto and again with this erroneous claim that naruto is dumb and talentless when clearly adult Hokage Naruto is highly knowledgeable and level minded despite is very unfair start in life. After the last naruto had a strenuous study regime to become hokage he definitively one of the more intelligent ninjas in Konoha now as a adult.

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    • From the little we've seen of him in Gaiden and Boruto, he's become highly analytical, and deduced Shin's abilities from a single attack, and realized Momoshiki and Kinshiki were after him specifically without Sasuke needing to tell him. His composure is also well maintained, and basically ignored all of the taunting his opponents threw at him.

      Hokage Naruto is just a completely different opponent, compared to Shippuden.

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    • UntappedRage wrote: From the little we've seen of him in Gaiden and Boruto, he's become highly analytical, and deduced Shin's abilities from a single attack, and realized Momoshiki and Kinshiki were after him specifically without Sasuke needing to tell him. His composure is also well maintained, and basically ignored all of the taunting his opponents threw at him.

      Hokage Naruto is just a completely different opponent, compared to Shippuden.

      Agreed and that’s all I’m saying we are talking about Adult Naruto lets be fair in our assessment of him.

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    • UntappedRage wrote: So...are we still talking about Naruto vs Itachi...?

      Not sure what there's left to discuss? The extent to which Naruto wins?

      Ninjachris wrote: Yes we are, people are trying to discredit various attributes of naruto to make it seem that itachi actually has a chance. Nonsensical Claims like Kabuto having a body that is more durable than naruto and again with this erroneous claim that naruto is dumb and talentless when clearly adult Hokage Naruto is highly knowledgeable and level minded despite is very unfair start in life.

      People are retroactively trying to apply all sorts of labels to Naruto that simply don't fit. Naruto has been taught to play to his strengths, which has made him a considerably more capable ninja. It hasn't magically made all his weaknesses and lack of talent go away. Like how he was never great with analysis. Sure years of study have improved it, but he's not suddenly the best analytical ninja out there.

      In the Academy, Naruto was the worst student, literally.

      Secondly, in some ways Kabuto does have a superior body. I don't see Naruto with Shikotsumyaku for instance.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      UntappedRage wrote: So...are we still talking about Naruto vs Itachi...?

      Not sure what there's left to discuss? The extent to which Naruto wins?

      Ninjachris wrote: Yes we are, people are trying to discredit various attributes of naruto to make it seem that itachi actually has a chance. Nonsensical Claims like Kabuto having a body that is more durable than naruto and again with this erroneous claim that naruto is dumb and talentless when clearly adult Hokage Naruto is highly knowledgeable and level minded despite is very unfair start in life.

      People are retroactively trying to apply all sorts of labels to Naruto that simply don't fit. Naruto has been taught to play to his strengths, which has made him a considerably more capable ninja. It hasn't magically made all his weaknesses and lack of talent go away. Like how he was never great with analysis. Sure years of study have improved it, but he's not suddenly the best analytical ninja out there.

      In the Academy, Naruto was the worst student, literally.

      Secondly, in some ways Kabuto does have a superior body. I don't see Naruto with Shikotsumyaku for instance.

      And people are trying to say their opinion trumps manga facts. Obviously naruto was the worst student but not because he was retarded or had some mental disability but because he no one to teach him as child how you cannot understand this is beyond me as it common sense children who lack adult supervision don’t do well.

      He was bad at ninjutsu because of Kuruma not some lack of talent and the sad part was he taught of himself as being dumb because he didn’t even know this creature was inside of him. Naruto has proven through his teens and more as hokage that he does have high intelligence and analytical abilities. Naruto and Shikamaru have been close friends for years now he is naruto’s advisor it’s only logical that Shika and naruto communicating everyday about strategies etc that naruto would become more astute.

      He has far greater durability than itachi for obvious reasons, he has way more battle experience than itachi, he is faster than itachi and as adult probably just as intelligent and if itachi is more intelligent it’s not by much and wouldn’t change the outcome of the fight.

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    • Naruto's older, he even has much ore experience

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    • Naruto wins this hands down. i don't even know why anyone still has these match ups. the only way itachi could have a chance is if you are severely limiting Naruto. even than limiting him to SM is still not enough nerfing.

      in the Boruto movie Naruto and sasuke fought momishiki without any power ups and they both were able to keep him at bay, at no time did they fight seriously, Naruto and sasuke both were insanely fast. no character in the Naruto series so far has moved as fast as naruto and sasuke were moving when they fought momishiki. and don't even say that 8 gate gai moved faster because thats B.S 8 gate gai was able to move fast enough to nearly kill madara but at the same time madara was actually toying with him allowing him to hit him to see what the power of 8 gates has. a moment later after naruto kicked his truth seeking ball away naruto speed blitzed madara, who only had enough time to summon one of his truth seeking balls as a shield while madara had enough time to not only block with his truth seeking ball but realize that gai's kick was distorting space. later on when fighting kaguya naruto was able to speed blitz kaguya with the boil release unrivaled strength.

      people also incorrectly assume that since teenage Naruto was unable to break free of itachi's regular genjutsu that means adult Naruto would be unable to.

      the reason this is incorrect is simply because of what we know about Six paths senjutsu, the datebook stated that the senjutsu of the six paths grants Naruto understanding of chakra and all things universal. meaning since gaining access to the the Senjutsu of the Six Paths, Naruto would have gained understanding of chakra on a far superior level to itachi. not only does the datebook state that Naruto has access to all nature transformations. Naruto has perfect chakra control what this means is that absolutely no regular genjutsu would effect Naruto.


      also yes you can improve on the shadow clone jutsu and body flicker technique. with his perfect chakra control Naruto can create a shadow clone that has a high level of durability with out waiting any chakra like he use to, when Naruto and sasuke had their final battle naruto's base shadow clones were tanking kicks from sasuke despite his old shadow clones going poof from the lightest blow of wind as for the body flicker, the raikage are all masters in body flicker technique thats how they are so fast. they enhance the body flicker via lightning armor that allows them to enhance there reaction time so they can actually keep up with there own speed and with superior chakra control a shinobi like Naruto would be able to perform the body flicker with less chakra, its been stated that the speed of your body flicker depends on how much chakra you use for the technique a shinobi with naruto's chakra as well as his current chakra control would be able to use the body flicker far superior to any other shinobi ever

      as far as itachi's Susanoo, naruto's rasenshuriken could tank it. with his perfect chakra control it would be believable that he could still use the tailed beast rasenshurken which were able to destroy giant Chibaku tensei. if you disagree with this let me remind you that Naruto tried creating tailed beast bombs outside of biju mode and only was unable to because his regular body couldn't handle the weight of the ball. yet naruto is no longer that normal human since hagoromo gave him his powers meaning Naruto now has the body of a GOD. not to mention jinchuriki are still able to use tailed beast techniques without the tailed beast. example Gaara used techniques that relied on shukuku's ultimate defense. the sand is gaara's own ability but the ultimate shield factor of the sand is something he inherited from Shukaku

      as for naruto's healing ability. people need to stop saying that hashirama's healing is superior. old school naruto Yes not current naruto. the only reason hashirama had said healing ability was because he WAS a transmigrant of asura. yet his DNA no longer has asura's chakra attached to it since hagoromo referred to him and madara as naruto and sasuke's predecessors. naruto on the other hand is the current transmigrant of asura plus he was given power directly from hagoromo meaning its evolved to the power hagoromo had

      also Izanami wouldn't work on Naruto as Naruto already knows who he is and is content with who he is, he isn't riding in anyone shadows trying to find the real him

      Naruto has shown time and time again that when the time calls for it he is a genius, while people like shikamaru and itachi can think 20,30 and 200 moves ahead. Naruto doesn't need this. he can create a strategy in the heat of battle that wins without having to think much it just comes to him like a light bulb going off

      Naruto as a child had no supervision, no one there to teach him how to be a good student, history shows that people who are in his situation often lack good grade's in school

      in the end we have naruto who has superior chakra volume(transmigrants have the chakra volume comparable to that of the original hashirama had chakra being a kurama, naruto and minato combined therefore naruto has a chakra volume comparable to hagoromo without kurama) superior speed, superior knowledge of chakra(via six paths senjutsu which gives understanding of chakra and all things universal basically relative omniscience), every chakra nature, superior strength, superior ninjutsu, taijutsu and a high resistance of genjutsu via his perfect chakra control. the only thing itachi has going for him is that he has superior intelligence(simply because no one was there to teach naruto how to be intelligent) in the end itachi doesn't stand a chance

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    • I don't even think Naruto can take the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist. let alone Itachi.

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    • Lol, Hokage Naruto even with just Sage Mode is on a whole other level than the 7 Ninja Swordsman combined. He can definitely take all of them on and win with little difficulty. Naruto's clones are of Kage tier, and due to his sensory abilities, they have no chance of surprising him. None of them can tank his jutsu (nor match it in power), and he is simply faster and physically stronger than most of them. The most difficult opponent would be Kisame, but would still get overwhelmed by Naruto's sheer power. Not to mention with Naruto's reserves and stamina, he can outlast them all as well in a prolonged battle.

      They are simply just outclassed here, including Itachi.

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    • @Actionmanrandell
      First of all Fighting against the two Ōtsutsuki in base wasn't good proof of strength. Momoshiki sucked at taijutsu and Kinshiki barely kept up with other two kages. So their fighting ability wasn't exceptional unlike Kaguya
      I am pretty sure by now everyone agrees that Naruto's win is confirmed however question is Does Itachi has some chance Or how difficult the fight would be..
      @UntappedRage
      There are still many kages who can fight naruto with his clones and you know it. There are some on whom None of Naruto's attack wouldn't even leave a scratch on their body. There are some Kage level opponent whose chakra reserves surpass even his(of course without the buffs or Kurama). So Don't talk like he can beat anyone.
      EDIT: I definitely don't think Naruto can take on Kisame. Definitely not He is the worst possible(in base). Even with SM it should be tough.
      @Ninjachris
      First of all the Body flicker like Jutsu Naruto did in Boruto is definitely not faster than usual. Two to compare that speed it should have been used in combat which gives far better perspective. finally Itachi did keep up with KCM Naruto speed is definitely not a problem which he can handle in this fight.
      Kabuto definitely has better Body. Karin's healing powers are the best in the series. Kabuto possesses them. Taijutsu won't likely work because he can liquefy his body like he liquefied out of Susanoo. He also has oro's substitution jutsu and immortality jutsu. You Seriously think Naruto in base is better than all THAT? I havent' even included sound 5 here or his regeneration capabilities.

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    • What?Kinshiki got caught off guard.He murdered chojuro when he was fighting him aloneAnd Kimoshiki kept up with weakend naruto and sasuke.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      I don't think Kaguya was that good of a fighter she just had time space powers that made fighting her impossable. Sakura was able to land a blow on her.

      Itachi does not even have to fight his genjutsu skills work on eye contact or finger pointing. and Koto does not even need eye contact.

      I also don't think Naruto can take on Kisame props for you man for bringing this up. Kisame samehada counters Naruto 9-tails or other tailed beast such as the 8 tails and 4 tails. and his base form took the 7th gated 1 hit death blow to not even kill him. with the sword he is just as strong as a tailed beast.

      Kakashisologod1 wrote: What?Kinshiki got caught off guard.He murdered chojuro when he was fighting him aloneAnd Kimoshiki kept up with weakend naruto and sasuke.

      Sasuke was having a hard time was saved by Chojuro who pined him with the twin swords chakra blades and the lime stone from the earth girl.

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    • Namikazenaruto9

      @Ninjachris
      First of all the Body flicker like Jutsu Naruto did in Boruto is definitely not faster than usual. Two to compare that speed it should have been used in combat which gives far better perspective. finally Itachi did keep up with KCM Naruto speed is definitely not a problem which he can handle in this fight.
      Kabuto definitely has better Body. Karin's healing powers are the best in the series. Kabuto possesses them. Taijutsu won't likely work because he can liquefy his body like he liquefied out of Susanoo. He also has oro's substitution jutsu and immortality jutsu. You Seriously think Naruto in base is better than all THAT? I havent' even included sound 5 here or his regeneration capabilities.

      Wrong on all accounts and I have already extensively proven why in my posts.

      And if Karin healing was the best why didn’t she instantly heal herself when Sasuke impaled with Kirin. Karin is nowhere close to naruto and she is also one of oro’s lab rats. Kabuto is a cheap knock-off with zero feats of durability.

      Naruto can’t defeat Kisame lmao I swear that’s one of the funniest things I ever heard on this forum. Shippuden Naruto would obliterate Kisame so don’t even mention hokage naruto lol.

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    • I swear if i hear one more time that Kisame is stronger than Bee...

      FFS, if Bee wanted to, he could've ended that battle in one move.He literally stated that he didn't want to go all out so that he won't make to much of a fuss and get caught by the Hidded Cloud. Kisame is NOT tailed beast level. He just isn't. Bee could've just TBB him and that would've been it. And let's not even go through Bee's feats from the war. Give me a break already...

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: I swear if i hear one more time that Kisame is stronger than Bee...

      FFS, if Bee wanted to, he could've ended that battle in one move.He literally stated that he didn't want to go all out so that he won't make to much of a fuss and get caught by the Hidded Cloud. Kisame is NOT tailed beast level. He just isn't. Bee could've just TBB him and that would've been it. And let's not even go through Bee's feats from the war. Give me a break already...

      And he didnt want to hurt the bear and the other guy.

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    • Nerosmoke wrote:

      I don't think Kaguya was that good of a fighter she just had time space powers that made fighting her impossable. Sakura was able to land a blow on her.
      She isn't, agreed. But still she did lot better than Kinshiki and Momoshiki, that's my point.

      Nerosmoke wrote:

      Itachi does not even have to fight his genjutsu skills work on eye contact or finger pointing. and Koto does not even need eye contact.
      o crow in the fight.

      Nerosmoke wrote:

      I also don't think Naruto can take on Kisame props for you man for bringing this up. Kisame samehada counters Naruto 9-tails or other tailed beast such as the 8 tails and 4 tails. and his base form took the 7th gated 1 hit death blow to not even kill him. with the sword he is just as strong as a tailed beast.
      Kisame is as strong as the opposing Ninjutsu user. So he is as strong as Tailed beast when he fights them. And I agree Naruto or Bee should struggle or even lose to him.

      </div>

      Ninjachris wrote:

      Wrong on all accounts and I have already extensively proven why in my posts.
      Yeah you proved with conjectures .

      Ninjachris wrote:

      And if Karin healing was the best why didn’t she instantly heal herself when Sasuke impaled with Kirin. Karin is nowhere close to naruto and she is also one of oro’s lab rats. Kabuto is a cheap knock-off with zero feats of durability.
      Why do you just talk about durability? It's not like Naruto ever showed anything even close in base
      Karin healed Other ninjas with broken ribs etc with just bite. the scenario about which you are talking about is the one where she was completely exhausted after refilling Sasuke's chakra several times and healing his wounds. Why don't you check out Her going past the 100 hand Buddha. Perhaps you would see my perspective. And do note she did all that after restoring Tsunade's 100 seal mark.

      Ninjachris wrote: Naruto can’t defeat Kisame lmao I swear that’s one of the funniest things I ever heard on this forum. Shippuden Naruto would obliterate Kisame so don’t even mention hokage naruto lol.

      How is it funny? Guy's Hirudora didn't kill him(when he was already weakened) what makes you think Naruto could kill him?

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    • @namikazinaruto9

      Conjecture?? That must be what they call facts where you’re from.

      Wow so here we go with the bs excuses she is the best healer and can heal others but not herself that’s ridiculous. Sakura has better healing feats than her, Sakura was fighting in the war and still healed others, she took a sword in chest from madara and was normal but Karin the “most superior healer” couldn’t heal herself because she was too tired??

      And you do know that even Base Naruto still has Kuruma right and he doesn’t need to don KCM cloak to have superior healing. Base mode naruto survived Toneri basically expelling all his chakra, base mode naruto survived enormous amount of his chakra being absorbed by Momoshiki not to mention tanking a gigantic biju bomb (TBM) just prior to that, fought Momoshiki and then was stabbed by him with multiple chakra rods and despite being totally exhausted and having a shit load of his chakra drained he still healed immediately.

      Itachi has no hope against naruto.

      Guy is not naruto, I’m not even going to respond to that absurdity about Kisame any further.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: Obviously naruto was the worst student but not because he was retarded or had some mental disability but because he no one to teach him as child how you cannot understand this is beyond me as it common sense children who lack adult supervision don’t do well.

      I'm not saying he's retarded. Him using some basic level analysis doesn't surprise me. It didn't require huge mental skills to figure out that the special power you see a ninja (with eyes granting special powers) use, are connected. I mean i would've been surprised if Pt1 Naruto figured that out, but a Hokage Naruto? Naruto is an intuitive learner, not an analytical one. And since nobody can apparently answer my question, i'm gonna ignore the comment about Kurama.

      On the other hand, Naruto didn't notice Sasuke couldn't use Susanoo against Shin, and he still tried to use Shadowclone against Momoshiki despite Momo absorbing Ninjutsu. Which points to the fact that while his Analysis isn't as ridiculously bad as it used to be, it's still not his strength.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Ninjachris wrote: Obviously naruto was the worst student but not because he was retarded or had some mental disability but because he no one to teach him as child how you cannot understand this is beyond me as it common sense children who lack adult supervision don’t do well.

      I'm not saying he's retarded. Him using some basic level analysis doesn't surprise me. It didn't require huge mental skills to figure out that the special power you see a ninja (with eyes granting special powers) use, are connected. I mean i would've been surprised if Pt1 Naruto figured that out, but a Hokage Naruto? Naruto is an intuitive learner, not an analytical one. And since nobody can apparently answer my question, i'm gonna ignore the comment about Kurama.

      On the other hand, Naruto didn't notice Sasuke couldn't use Susanoo against Shin, and he still tried to use Shadowclone against Momoshiki despite Momo absorbing Ninjutsu. Which points to the fact that while his Analysis isn't as ridiculously bad as it used to be, it's still not his strength.

      Man naruto was thought absolutely nothing for probably the first 5-7years of his life which are the formative what part of that is difficult for you to get. He was at a major disadvantage in the beginning but worked twice as hard and is actually an intelligent accomplished adult now. Naruto is the hokage of the leaf the strongest village in the narutoverse do you really think they would let him be the hokage if he didn’t have a strategical mind. Sure Shikamaru is his advisor but the buck stops with naruto the lunch codes are in his hands. Don’t you think some of the things naruto had to study would be war/battle strategy people behavioral patterns etc. And I didn’t recall Sasuke or any other of the kages making and battle changing observations.

      The question about Kuruma was answered by Kishi through kakashi in the manga it’s a cannon manga fact. But just for the sake of argument, I will make it simple Kuruma’s chakra constantly flowing into naruto’s caused a continual disturbance in naruto’s chakra which made it very difficult for him to control chakra. Oro’s stopped this continual flow of Kuruma’s chakra whilst also unbalancing naruto’s own chakra making it almost impossible to control his chakra. So in short Kuruma’s interference made it very difficult (drastically more difficult than any of his peers) to control chakra, but naruto still managed through sheer determination. And oro seal made dam near impossible:

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    • Kisame was not weak.In fact,he was even stronger duo to absorbing all of that chakra and guy had no intentions of killing him.He is only strong as opposing ninjutsu user IF he can absorb their chakra.B already gave a tough time to kisame in v2 cloak.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: The question about Kuruma was answered by Kishi through kakashi in the manga it’s a cannon manga fact.

      By Jiraiya you mean.

      Ninjachris wrote:

      Oro’s stopped this continual flow of Kuruma’s chakra whilst also unbalancing naruto’s own chakra making it almost impossible to control his chakra.

      Not what the Manga says. Manga doesn't say it disturbs his own chakra, just that it stops Kurama's from mixing with Narutos. Once that flow of chakra was restored, Naruto's chakra control made a massive leap. This wasn't said or hypothesized, it was demonstrated. Hence, kakashi was wrong. Kakashi was also unaware of the Seal, so that explains his hypothesis. It's not the last time that someone explained something, only for it to be elaborated later. In this case, Kakashi was half-right, since it was the absence rather than presence of Kurama that screwed up his control.

      Ninjachris wrote: Man naruto was thought absolutely nothing for probably the first 5-7years of his life which are the formative what part of that is difficult for you to get.

      No idea what your point is here, since i don't see the connection with what i was saying. My point is that Naruto fixing his weaknesses doesn't make him a genius. It doesn't retroactively make him just a poorly misunderstood ninja. He didn't get the most basic explanations. He didn't get the most elementary tactics. He showed trouble paying attention in school, and showed trouble understanding 1-to-1 explanations. Being reasonably versed in analytics doesn't retroactively make him an analytical genius.

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    • Still in awe that some people are finding arguments for Itachi winning here.

      I mean, sure, people have their opinions and from different points of view and all. But this seems kind of ridiculous.

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    • @Thekillman

      Not according to chapter 90 page8. If you are talking about Oros seal well yea Jiraiya released that but Kuruma’s interference was solved by naruto and Kurama’s chakras synchronizating over time.

      I don’t know how going from being unbalanced on water to balancing is a massive leap in chakra control did learning new ninjutsu suddenly become easy for him? He still had trouble learning the Rasengan and still didn’t have enough control to do it one handed until late in his teens is this massive control leap you are referring to. it’s more like a massive exaggeration. Kakashi was right as proven by naruto learning faster as he got older and his and Kurama’s mixed more essentially becoming naruto’s own chakra.

      It’s beyond on me how you don’t understand why as an adolescent basic concepts would be difficult for naruto to understand when he was never taught basic concepts. It the equivalent to not knowing how to read and being placed in the third grade with kids who are already advanced readers. That has zero bearing on intelligence, don’t teach a genius to read then give them a text book and ask them to read does not being able to read means the kid is not a genius.

      And I don’t know why you are throwing around the term genius I never claimed he was a genius, you do understand that geniuses are rare right? and there are exceptionally intelligent persons who aren’t geniuses themselves. Naruto had the same potential as everyone else but had the distinct disadvantage of beginning at a much later age than everyone and in addition to that not having adult supervision at home to help him learn. But he worked hard and attained his full potential as an adult which is actually being one of the more intelligent persons in Konoha as hokage.

      @AsianReaper, I know right smh.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Nerosmoke wrote:
      She isn't, agreed. But still she did lot better than Kinshiki and Momoshiki, that's my point.

      Also agreed. To a weaker Naruto and Sasuke

      Ninjachris wrote: Naruto can’t defeat Kisame lmao I swear that’s one of the funniest things I ever heard on this forum. Shippuden Naruto would obliterate Kisame so don’t even mention hokage naruto lol.

      How is it funny? Guy's Hirudora didn't kill him(when he was already weakened) what makes you think Naruto could kill him?

      I mean Kisame did not even have his chakra eating sword and all of Naruto's attacks use chakra. So the only way Kisame can lose to naruto is if he does not have his sword or if Naruto has a attack that does not use chakra.

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    • Nerosmoke wrote: I mean Kisame did not even have his chakra eating sword and all of Naruto's attacks use chakra. So the only way Kisame can lose to naruto is if he does not have his sword or if Naruto has a attack that does not use chakra.

      Naruto can literally Frog Kumite him into oblivion. He can't absorb Nature Energy, and he can't absorb Sage chakra. Kisame loses.

      That's not even the debate. This is Naruto vs Itachi.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Naruto can literally Frog Kumite him into oblivion. He can't absorb Nature Energy, and he can't absorb Sage chakra. Kisame loses.

      That's not even the debate. This is Naruto vs Itachi.

      It's very unlikely it would work. Especially since when Hirudora didn't.
      Two His water super shark bomb can absorb chakra to become stronger. there it doesn't matter whether its Senjutsu or not.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: It's very unlikely it would work. Especially since when Hirudora didn't.
      Two His water super shark bomb can absorb chakra to become stronger. there it doesn't matter whether its Senjutsu or not.

      Senjutsu chakra will petrify anyone who isn't trained to use it. Sharks aren't exactly excluded.

      Hirudora is one technique. Naruto can pummel him over and over and over again because Frog Kumite is just Taijutsu. And if he's strong enough to be one-shotting Pains, he's strong enough to hit Kisame and hurt him. All he has to do is do it multiple times.

      Again though, Naruto vs Itachi, not Kisame

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:
      @UntappedRage
      There are still many kages who can fight naruto with his clones and you know it. There are some on whom None of Naruto's attack wouldn't even leave a scratch on their body. There are some Kage level opponent whose chakra reserves surpass even his(of course without the buffs or Kurama). So Don't talk like he can beat anyone.
      EDIT: I definitely don't think Naruto can take on Kisame. Definitely not He is the worst possible(in base). Even with SM it should be tough.

      Name a Kage-level opponent outside of Edo-Tensei and TTJ feats who have the durability to tank one of Naruto's Jutsu, and one who's reserves surpasses his in Base Mode or Sage Mode. The First Hokage and Madara? Kisame hasn't shown anything to reinforce that he himself does. The only other dude I can think of that can surpass has comparable reserves to Naruto's Base reserves is Nagato and Sasuke? So there are what, a total of around four three people who are comparable to him in base chakra reserve?

      Has anyone even directly tanked a regular Rasenshuriken outside of Edo-Tensei and TTJ level combatants? Not to mention when it's combined with other nature transformations? Edo-Tensei doesn't count (i.e. 3rd Raikage), simply because he didn't actually tank it, he was reconstructed. If he were alive when taking that hit, he'd be dead. Rasenshuriken's molecular chakra severance ability also doesn't work on Edo-Tensei.

      Because from what I've seen, whoever took a direct hit from any one of them, even with defensive jutsu in place, usually ended up taking severe damage. Even the Massive Rasengan, a Jutsu which has enough force to obliterate a giant wooden stump, plow throw swaths of rock, and still have enough force to break into the stratosphere, please tell me, who can possibly tank that, when even Kimoshiki was completely obliterated.

      Legitimate question, because it's pretty important to the outcome of any SM Hokage Naruto vs x person.

      Because the thing you don't seem to realize is, Base + SM Hokage Naruto can defeat any shinobi we've seen outside of Hashirama and above level opponents.

      Nerosmoke wrote: I mean Kisame did not even have his chakra eating sword and all of Naruto's attacks use chakra. So the only way Kisame can lose to naruto is if he does not have his sword or if Naruto has a attack that does not use chakra.

      You assume only one attack is headed for Kisame like only one opponent attacks you at a time in Assassin's Creed. His sword doesn't help much when there are a few different attacks coming at him.

      This plays into Itachi fight as well. Why does everyone assume a defensive technique designed to block jutsu from one direction can block multiple different ones from different directions?

      Even if he can, Naruto would've already accounted for chakra absorption techniques and have closed the distance Taijutsu range anyway. He always does this with opponents that can absorb ninjutsu

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    • @namikazinaruto9

      Why are you trying to make this naruto vs Kisame, are you throwing out random scenarios because of how easily naruto defeats itachi and you want naruto to lose so badly.

      Naruto defeated pain who was the rinnegan wielding leader of the Akatsuki, the same person who killed Jiraiya whom Kisame and itachi ran from and he did it without KCM while he was still a teenager. Yea Kurama helped but naruto had already destroyed all but one of his bodies a feat no else previously done and he withstood almighty push while Is base to finish of the last body.

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    • UntappedRage wrote: Has anyone even directly tanked a regular Rasenshuriken outside of Edo-Tensei and TTJ level combatants?

      The 3rd Raikage did tank one with his lightnings shield though. It wasn't a perfect tanking (we did see some damage), but it's the closest thing i've seen to a direct hit. Everyone else, as far as i know, has always done their best not to get hit in the first place.

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    • Nagato and Sasuke surpassing Naruto's base reserves? Lol. They most likely don't even come close. As a teen Naruto stated that the rasenshuriken blows up almost all of his chakra when he was first using it. And even as a teen he had huge reserves. Again, with the Last feats, he created like 2 rasenshurikens back to back without breaking a sweat. In Boruto, to the limit as he was, he still amped Boruto's rasengan to many many many times larger than the usual one. I don't think some of you realize how chakra taxing these techniques really are. I don't see anybody pulling what Naruto does even in base.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Nagato and Sasuke surpassing Naruto's base reserves? Lol. They most likely don't even come close.

      I think they do. The stuff Nagato pulls out of his hat seems comparable to other people with Biju-level reserves.

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    • That's just ridiculous... Again, they probably don't even come close... I think you people overestimate too much dojutsu abilities in terms of chakra-taxing. It was never mentioned that either Nagato or Sasuke have large reserves, while on the other hand it was always stated that Naruto does in fact have massive reserves.

      Just because Nagato was spitting blood when he created chibaku tensei vs Naruto, it doesn't mean that it is that much of a chakra taxing. He was crippled and sick at the time. We've seen first hand that dojutsu abilities are not chakra taxing. In the sharingan case it's about what kind of eye you have. If you have MS, is not a matter of chakra. Your eyes just get deteriorated, and it can be fixed with EMS. It's not like EMS is increasing the user's chakra. Same for the rinnegan. It's about if you can withstand it's power. Nagato was an Uzumaki, so he could do it. He could use shinra tensei, one of the more powerful rinnegan abilities every 5 seconds, and even overdoing it to destroy and entire village. But he doesn't run out of chakra. As seen, that particular ability/path just gets blocked for a while. When he was reanimated the created chibaku tensei with no problem whatsoever. He did absorb Bee's v2 cloak, but a bunch of that chakra was use to revitalize his body.

      Naruto is an Uzumaki and most importantly a reincarnation of Asura, who inherited the Sage's body. You mean to tell me that these 2 have more chakra than the guy who as a kid pulled 1000 shadow clones? Please... They are not even in the same category.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: That's just ridiculous... Again, they probably don't even come close... I think you people overestimate too much dojutsu abilities in terms of chakra-taxing. It was never mentioned that either Nagato or Sasuke have large reserves, while on the other hand it was always stated that Naruto does in fact have massive reserves.

      Nagato fought an entire village alone, then fought Naruto and Kurama and even then he didn't run out of juice. The Fourth Raikage does only a fraction of this, yet he is stated to have biju-levels of chakra.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      UntappedRage wrote: Has anyone even directly tanked a regular Rasenshuriken outside of Edo-Tensei and TTJ level combatants?

      The 3rd Raikage did tank one with his lightnings shield though. It wasn't a perfect tanking (we did see some damage), but it's the closest thing i've seen to a direct hit. Everyone else, as far as i know, has always done their best not to get hit in the first place.

      I mentioned that part in my post, but from the visible damage inflicted onto the 3rd while in Edo-Tensei, I believe he would've been left in a near-death state if hit while actual flesh and blood. The chakra severance ability of the Rasenshuriken probably cut through his Lightning Cloak as well, hence the damage to the Raikage, but since he regenerates, it did nothing. Hence why I omitted anyone Edo-Tensei, but also used it as an example of how tanking it is basically impossible for anyone alive.

      Dodging it is very possible, as seen many times, but what will you do about the second one? from a completely different direction in intersecting lines of fire. Surely it must be easier for Hokage Naruto to do this as it no longer takes him decades to prepare the Jutsu in Base?

      Thekillman wrote:

      Vladosaurus wrote: That's just ridiculous... Again, they probably don't even come close... I think you people overestimate too much dojutsu abilities in terms of chakra-taxing. It was never mentioned that either Nagato or Sasuke have large reserves, while on the other hand it was always stated that Naruto does in fact have massive reserves.

      Nagato fought an entire village alone, then fought Naruto and Kurama and even then he didn't run out of juice. The Fourth Raikage does only a fraction of this, yet he is stated to have biju-levels of chakra.

      Agreed, I drew my conclusion for Nagato from that as well. I also believe Sasuke has levels on par or surpassing even base Naruto, as he did fight for a while (not as much as Naruto, however) in the 4th Shinobi World War, and then Kaguya, then VoTE2. Both hadn't shown signs of exhaustion until the clash of their two massive jutsu, which they poured most of their remaining chakra into. Susanoo is also very chakra taxing as well. If he doesn't match or surpass his base reserves, he's damn well close to his levels since Sasuke is technically in base all the time, and has no higher modes that boost chakra levels.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Nagato and Sasuke surpassing Naruto's base reserves? Lol. They most likely don't even come close. As a teen Naruto stated that the rasenshuriken blows up almost all of his chakra when he was first using it. And even as a teen he had huge reserves. Again, with the Last feats, he created like 2 rasenshurikens back to back without breaking a sweat. In Boruto, to the limit as he was, he still amped Boruto's rasengan to many many many times larger than the usual one. I don't think some of you realize how chakra taxing these techniques really are. I don't see anybody pulling what Naruto does even in base.

      I do realize how taxing those techniques are, and hence why I mentioned in an earlier post he can easily outlast any of the people mentioned in this thread with his reserves alone. His ease of use of the Rasenshuriken without any visible fatigue reinforces the fact his reserves have grown massive, many times bigger than any average Kage-level opponent.

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    • Again, ridiculous. Susanoo is not chakra taxing as you make it out to be. These are made up things that you want to believe. Don't be fooled by Sasuke's use of susanoo from the time he only had MS.

      Even Itachi with his average level of chakra could use the armored version of Susanoo, which is pretty large in size as well, as seen. MS/Rinnegan abilities, again, are not as chakra taxing as you make them up to be. Also don't be fooled by the size of Sasuke's PS. It's not like in Naruto's case, where he is literally coating himself in Kurama's massive chakra. Compared to Kurama's chakra avatar, The PS is using barely a fraction of chakra.

      They made it pretty clear that MS/Rinnegan abilities are about the eye exhaustion, and not as much about chakra. Rinnegan doesn't increase chakra levels, EMS doesn't increase chakra levels. It's all about exhaustion your eyes. Let's take Sasuke's ameno. After about 3 uses of it, Sasuke can't use it for a while. Is is because of chakra? No. It's simply because of the continuous usage of the eyes.

      And you bring up Sasuke fighting in the war as a large chakra-pool feat? Lol. Sasuke joined the war after the jiuubi was released. Which was at the beginning of the second night, of the war that lasted 2 days. He even wandered around for a while when he was trapped by Kaguya in the desert dimension. Hell, Kakashi fought from the beginning of the war until the end. I guess Kakashi also has larger chakra than Naruto, right? No.

      And you bring up the fact that Sasuke and Naruto were at the same level of exhaustion at VOTE2. Again, makes no sense. First of all, as i mentioned before, Naruto's abilities require way more chakra than Sasuke's. Only one of Naruto's TBB require way more chakra than Sasuke has in total. And Naruto was spamming that during the war. Second of all, Sasuke was drawing chakra from 9 tailed beasts, while Naruto was drawing chakra from one. And you mean to tell me that they were at the same level of exhaustion fairly?

      Naruto had a way larger chakra pool than Sasuke to begin with. Than they both receive six paths power, which is arguably if it increased their chakra level at all, since i don't think it was ever confirmed. Than you have the fact that Naruto is a transmigrant of Asura and has the sage's body. While growing in age, their respective chakra pools increased until now, and it was pretty obvious that Naruto's chakra pool increases incredibly fast, since the Last happened only 2 years after the war.

      So at what point exactly did Sasuke's chakra become even comparable to Naruto's? Let alone surpass it... I know that you probably want to believe that in base Sasuke has more chakra, since Naruto outshines him by mile by having Kurama, but it's not the case. Even without Kurama, Naruto has way way more chakra than Sasuke. It was never even brought up canonically that Sasuke might have even impressive chakra reserves, and you want to compare him with Naruto...

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    • AsianReaper wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: It's very unlikely it would work. Especially since when Hirudora didn't.
      Two His water super shark bomb can absorb chakra to become stronger. there it doesn't matter whether its Senjutsu or not.

      Senjutsu chakra will petrify anyone who isn't trained to use it. Sharks aren't exactly excluded.

      Hirudora is one technique. Naruto can pummel him over and over and over again because Frog Kumite is just Taijutsu. And if he's strong enough to be one-shotting Pains, he's strong enough to hit Kisame and hurt him. All he has to do is do it multiple times.

      Again though, Naruto vs Itachi, not Kisame

      I made a Naruto vs Kisame thread. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:248936

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Again, ridiculous. Susanoo is not chakra taxing as you make it out to be. These are made up things that you want to believe. Don't be fooled by Sasuke's use of susanoo from the time he only had MS.

      Even Itachi with his average level of chakra could use the armored version of Susanoo, which is pretty large in size as well, as seen. MS/Rinnegan abilities, again, are not as chakra taxing as you make them up to be. Also don't be fooled by the size of Sasuke's PS. It's not like in Naruto's case, where he is literally coating himself in Kurama's massive chakra. Compared to Kurama's chakra avatar, The PS is using barely a fraction of chakra.

      They made it pretty clear that MS/Rinnegan abilities are about the eye exhaustion, and not as much about chakra. Rinnegan doesn't increase chakra levels, EMS doesn't increase chakra levels. It's all about exhaustion your eyes. Let's take Sasuke's ameno. After about 3 uses of it, Sasuke can't use it for a while. Is is because of chakra? No. It's simply because of the continuous usage of the eyes.

      And you bring up Sasuke fighting in the war as a large chakra-pool feat? Lol. Sasuke joined the war after the jiuubi was released. Which was at the beginning of the second night, of the war that lasted 2 days. He even wandered around for a while when he was trapped by Kaguya in the desert dimension. Hell, Kakashi fought from the beginning of the war until the end. I guess Kakashi also has larger chakra than Naruto, right? No.

      And you bring up the fact that Sasuke and Naruto were at the same level of exhaustion at VOTE2. Again, makes no sense. First of all, as i mentioned before, Naruto's abilities require way more chakra than Sasuke's. Only one of Naruto's TBB require way more chakra than Sasuke has in total. And Naruto was spamming that during the war. Second of all, Sasuke was drawing chakra from 9 tailed beasts, while Naruto was drawing chakra from one. And you mean to tell me that they were at the same level of exhaustion fairly?

      Naruto had a way larger chakra pool than Sasuke to begin with. Than they both receive six paths power, which is arguably if it increased their chakra level at all, since i don't think it was ever confirmed. Than you have the fact that Naruto is a transmigrant of Asura and has the sage's body. While growing in age, their respective chakra pools increased until now, and it was pretty obvious that Naruto's chakra pool increases incredibly fast, since the Last happened only 2 years after the war.

      So at what point exactly did Sasuke's chakra become even comparable to Naruto's? Let alone surpass it... I know that you probably want to believe that in base Sasuke has more chakra, since Naruto outshines him by mile by having Kurama, but it's not the case. Even without Kurama, Naruto has way way more chakra than Sasuke. It was never even brought up canonically that Sasuke might have even impressive chakra reserves, and you want to compare him with Naruto...

      Okay fine, maybe not Sasuke. What about Nagato? Surely he has a bunch of chakra comparable to Naruto's from what we've seen?

      It still doesn't change the fact that only a very small number of people (3?) we know of has chakra levels comparable to a Base Hokage Naruto.

      That was the point I was originally trying to make, the fact that literally only less than a handful of people had reserves matching or maybe surpassing his in base, because I was attempting to explain how Naruto could outlast them all in a prolonged battle if for whatever reason he can't beat them all.

      EDIT: I edited my original post.

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    • UntappedRage wrote: I mentioned that part in my post, but from the visible damage inflicted onto the 3rd while in Edo-Tensei, I believe he would've been left in a near-death state if hit while actual flesh and blood.

      I don't share that opinion. From the manga, the damage is difficult to tell (also because of his scar). While he was injured somewhat, i don't think it was enough to finish him off. Notably the rasenshuriken blades tend to cut whatever they hit, and in this case there was no visible cutting damage, implying that the brunt of the hit was already tanked by his lightning shield. Naruto notes that his Rasenshuriken had no effect, so it indeed seems that the damage to the 3rd was minimal, and if he'd been alive he still would've been able to fight.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Again, ridiculous. Susanoo is not chakra taxing as you make it out to be. These are made up things that you want to believe. Don't be fooled by Sasuke's use of susanoo from the time he only had MS.

      But these jutsu DO take up a lot of chakra. We've seen MS users prepare these techniques in their eye repeatedly, and we've only seen jutsu be prepared when they are immensely chakra taxing. Sasuke could use Chidori twice in part 1, fight Itachi for a few minutes with Curse Seal, with MS he fought Danzo with Susanoo exclusively and with EMS was shooting Amaterasu bolts and cloaking Kurama in Susanoo. I don't think Chidori costs more chakra than an Amaterasu or a Susanoo, yet he used high-level jutsu more and more.

      Nagato had to recall Deva Path and his nose bled from casting Chibaku Tensei, despite the fact that spamming ninjutsu for minutes on end across 6 bodies barely made him sweat. yet Sasuke cast 9 CB's at the same time without a sweat. I'm sorry, but the idea that MS or Rinnegan techniques don't cost a lot of chakra simply doesn't hold.

      Perfect Susanoo is still a massive chakra giant, and in size and power outdoes many jutsu that are used by Biju-level opponents. It's immense defenses suggests that the chakra armor is no less than that of Kurama, it's immense cutting power is no less than a Biju's taijutsu.

      Considering that the Raikages are cloaked in an insanely powerful lightning armor and have biju-levels of chakra, i don't see why it's so hard to believe that Sasuke with his superior armor (both in size and toughness), superior firepower and immense fighting duration also does.

      We don't know how strong Base Naruto's reserves are, but for any kind of fight he almost instantly relies on Kurama, suggesting his own power isn't as great (Comparable). While he may be Biju-level even in base, Biju-level stretches anywhere from low-end (implied with Raikages) to high-end (Hashirama)

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    • Nonsense. Again, it's about the eye power. Sasuke could bearly keep the Susanoo and could bearly use amaterasu couple of times when he only had MS. After he obtained EMS, he could spam those abilities, as he did, like a madman. But the EMS does NOT increase one's chakra reserves. So MS abilities clearly don't require much chakra. Sasuke could keep the Susanoo on for a long time in the 4th war, yet his chakra levels were the same as they were at the 5 kage summit. Again, even Itachi with his mediocre chakra reserves and MS (not even EMS) could use the full armored susanoo for quite some time.

      Just give me a break already. It's pretty clear that these abilities don't require much chakra to use.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Nonsense. Again, it's about the eye power. Sasuke could bearly keep the Susanoo and could bearly use amaterasu couple of times when he only had MS.

      Sasuke noted that his entire body hurt from using Susanoo for so long, during the 5 Kage summit. Evidently it costs a lot.

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      Again, even Itachi with his mediocre chakra reserves and MS (not even EMS) could use the full armored susanoo for quite some time.

      Itachi does not have mediocre reserves.

      Vladosaurus wrote: But the EMS does NOT increase one's chakra reserves.

      Not necessary. using ninjutsu counts as training, and training increases your reserves.

      Unless you mean to imply that summoning a 30+m giant that cuts mountain costs about as much as a Chidori. Hebi Sasuke ran out of juice after a few Chidori and a few fireballs, yet with MS he can keep a Susanoo running for 10 minutes while shooting chakra projectiles and throwing all-burning fire. These aren't the same, not remotely.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Just give me a break already. It's pretty clear that these abilities don't require much chakra to use.

      It's pretty clear that Sasuke's reserves have improved considerably over the series.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: @NamikazeNaruto,

      His Senjutsu probably is better than Kabuto's. While he can't passively draw in Nature Energy, it takes him very little time to do so. With his clones, he shouldn't have a problem.

      And his actual usage of Sage Mode is arguably the most mastered out of anyone. At least by the time he was Hokage. Kabuto doesn't have nearly enough experience to put him on par with it.

      As far as Genjutsu, I'm pretty sure that Naruto can sense when it's going to be cast in order to avoid it. And even if he couldn't I feel there's a reason Sasuke chose to use Genjutsu on all the Tailed Beasts, but not Naruto in their final fight. His new mastery over chakra in general would likely mean that he's able to disrupt his own chakra to release the Genjutsu much better than before.

      Just saying , kabuto was someone who stated himself to be the closest thing to the sage of the six paths imo . Ofcourse he has the better senjutsu because of jugo's kekkei genkai thats without doubt . Naruto cannot evade Totsuka Blade which has shown to be perfect in offensive capability . Zetsu knew enough about it to make that statement . He shouldve seen it work since he was there from the Time Of Kaguya or he mightve read it from hagoromo's tablet since he fabricated it . Yata mirror is Omnidirectional , I cant believe that excuse still lives , if it isnt an omnidirectional defense how is itachi invincible? Not to mention no physical form means it transcends space . Meaning it can convert into any shape necessary . That scene where the snakes got around Yata was anime only , most of people like to point at that scene to give proof , yata is unidirectional .

      Itachi Wins .

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    • @Thekillman Honestly, you are hurting my brain. It physically hurts. The reason why Susanoo was "hurting" Sasuke's body, was because he was using it via MS and as i said 1000 times before, exhausted MS eyes, hurt AS IT WAS STATED. It's f*cking obvious that this things do not apply to EMS, since that's the whole point of EMS.

      And no, EMS does not increase chakra reserves one bit. First use of Sasuke's EMS was when he took out those black zetsu's combining guess what amaterasu and Susanoo. And he did it without training at all. Then after couple of hours max he fought Kabuto, again spamming susanoo and amaterasu, without training, and without exhaustion his chakra. Then it came the war.

      And yes,Itachi dies have average chakra reserves.

      Honestly, i don't even know why i bother explaining. Even a 5 year old would understand.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Just saying , kabuto was someone who stated himself to be the closest thing to the sage of the six paths imo . Ofcourse he has the better senjutsu because of jugo's kekkei genkai thats without doubt . Naruto cannot evade Totsuka Blade which has shown to be perfect in offensive capability . Zetsu knew enough about it to make that statement . He shouldve seen it work since he was there from the Time Of Kaguya or he mightve read it from hagoromo's tablet since he fabricated it . Yata mirror is Omnidirectional , I cant believe that excuse still lives , if it isnt an omnidirectional defense how is itachi invincible? Not to mention no physical form means it transcends space . Meaning it can convert into any shape necessary . That scene where the snakes got around Yata was anime only , most of people like to point at that scene to give proof , yata is unidirectional .

      Itachi Wins .

      lol

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    • YM isnt omnidrectional.

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    • he forgot the /s

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: YM isnt omnidrectional.

      Why do you think so? Databook says its a perfect defense and zetsu says its an invincible defense . Whats to say it isnt omnidirectional? Do you have proof of any sort?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Why do you think so? Databook says its a perfect defense and zetsu says its an invincible defense . Whats to say it isnt omnidirectional? Do you have proof of any sort?

      Do you have proof it is? We've never seen it actually change shape.

      Vladosaurus wrote: @Thekillman Honestly, you are hurting my brain. It physically hurts. The reason why Susanoo was "hurting" Sasuke's body, was because he was using it via MS and as i said 1000 times before, exhausted MS eyes, hurt AS IT WAS STATED. It's f*cking obvious that this things do not apply to EMS, since that's the whole point of EMS.

      He didn't say his eyes hurt. He said every cell in his body hurt. So you know, his toes, his fingers, his belly button. Every cell. Not just his eyes.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Just saying , kabuto was someone who stated himself to be the closest thing to the sage of the six paths imo

      Something that got disproven quite hard by Madara "rules, what rules" Uchiha himself.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:Naruto cannot evade Totsuka Blade which has shown to be perfect in offensive capability .

      Based on what? The two times Itachi hit someone with it, it was against a stationary target. One didn't even try to dodge and the other was attacked from a blind spot and never saw it coming. How does that translate to "perfect offense". How does a shield that tanked a few explosive kunai translate to "omnidirectional invincible shield"?

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Why do you think so? Databook says its a perfect defense and zetsu says its an invincible defense . Whats to say it isnt omnidirectional? Do you have proof of any sort?

      Do you have proof it is? We've never seen it actually change shape.

      Vladosaurus wrote: @Thekillman Honestly, you are hurting my brain. It physically hurts. The reason why Susanoo was "hurting" Sasuke's body, was because he was using it via MS and as i said 1000 times before, exhausted MS eyes, hurt AS IT WAS STATED. It's f*cking obvious that this things do not apply to EMS, since that's the whole point of EMS.

      He didn't say his eyes hurt. He said every cell in his body hurt. So you know, his toes, his fingers, his belly button. Every cell. Not just his eyes.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Just saying , kabuto was someone who stated himself to be the closest thing to the sage of the six paths imo

      Something that got disproven quite hard by Madara "rules, what rules" Uchiha himself.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:Naruto cannot evade Totsuka Blade which has shown to be perfect in offensive capability .

      Based on what? The two times Itachi hit someone with it, it was against a stationary target. One didn't even try to dodge and the other was attacked from a blind spot and never saw it coming. How does that translate to "perfect offense". How does a shield that tanked a few explosive kunai translate to "omnidirectional invincible shield"?

      Oro didnt move so its not itachi or yatas fault . Databook and manga states it to be a perfect flawless defense . Go read it . Zetsu has read it somewhere , possibly the tablet , that yata is a perfect defense hence why he said it made the user invincible . How can a defense be flawless if it only protects one side?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Databook and manga states it to be a perfect flawless defense

      The Databook also states that Shikotsumyaku is an omnipotent ability, and calls several powers the power of a god. The Databook is filled with fancy language. It's also known to have mistakes.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: that yata is a perfect defense hence why he said it made the user invincible . How can a defense be flawless if it only protects one side?

      Zetsu also said Itachi should've been able to dodge those shuriken but he didn't. Seems like he wasn't perfectly informed of everything. He also said he was the manifestation of Madara's will. Gaara's defense and Susanoo have both been called Absolute but neither was Absolute.

      If it's such a flawless defense, why did Itachi not use it against Kabuto? Why didn't he use it against Nagato? Why didn't he use it all the time, in stead of blocking a few explosive kunai?

      Itachi's feats are just databook hype, and even then it's not even itachi's strengths but purely his weapons.

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    • Kabutos sound wave was AOE and itachi did not pull out The mirror.He only used it vs Immobile orochimaru

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Databook and manga states it to be a perfect flawless defense

      The Databook also states that Shikotsumyaku is an omnipotent ability, and calls several powers the power of a god. The Databook is filled with fancy language. It's also known to have mistakes.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: that yata is a perfect defense hence why he said it made the user invincible . How can a defense be flawless if it only protects one side?

      Zetsu also said Itachi should've been able to dodge those shuriken but he didn't. Seems like he wasn't perfectly informed of everything. He also said he was the manifestation of Madara's will. Gaara's defense and Susanoo have both been called Absolute but neither was Absolute.

      If it's such a flawless defense, why did Itachi not use it against Kabuto? Why didn't he use it against Nagato? Why didn't he use it all the time, in stead of blocking a few explosive kunai?

      Itachi's feats are just databook hype, and even then it's not even itachi's strengths but purely his weapons.

      Itachi face turn was a current situation not the past . Not only that itachi couldve dodged it if he didnt purposefully get hit because he wanted sasuke to believe he got stronger which wasnt the case . Itachi already knew he was going to die by sasuke's hands so why dodge simple flesh wounds? No one does that. Only tobi knew about it . Zetsu knows everything from the past and Totsuka and Yata are objects of the past . Shikotsumayo being omnipotent doesnt take away anything from itachis weapons . BZ knows the entire stuff in the Rikudou Tablet so he wouldnt say that simply at a whim . He knew what he was saying . Databook of itachi isnt hype because it was stated to make him completely invincible in the manga . Shikotsumayo have been stated to a perfect attack? Is it? Or perfect defense? Or that physical , astral , ninjutsu and all sorts of attacks are useless against it? Nope Im sure . But for yata and totsuka , its stated to be magical matchless weapons which means its stronger than Nunoboku no ken which was stated to have shaped the world since obito didnt call it the best sword . Absolute = Omnidirectional . Perfect = No weakness . Totsuka and yata have this statement " Itachis Susanoo Boasts an Absolutely Perfect Attack and Defense"....which means the mirror is both omnidirectional and perfect in repelling everything . Totsuka has been shown to change shape and DB confirms it doesnt have physical form which means both weapons can convert or morph into any shape necessary to protect the castor hence why both are magical , they can do anything the castor wishes according to the need of the situation . Unless you can prove that page is a mistake , the manga and statement still stands . He didnt use it logic is flimsy at best . Its like saying nagaro didnt use ST and BT on itachi so hes automatically immune to it . Or maybe he might be? Lol . This kind of logic doesnt work unless there is serious point to be proven backed by manga .

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    • Shapes the world>>>>>>>>>>procceds to get destroyed by MAS`sword and it was not even close.Why didnt itachi use it against kabuto.Use brain please.

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    • Well personally I think we can all agree that by the time they clashed during the Fourth Great Ninja War Naruto had surpassed Itachi. I mean Itachi is still a remarkably insightful and intelligent man but his greatest weapon is the Mangekyo Sharingan and his renowned genjutsu. Naruto knows enough but the three jutsu of the Mangekyo to be able to either evade them or be able to make them almost completely ineffectual. Genjutsu is useless agnaist jinchuriki who are harmonized with their tailed beast. Just about the only way Itachi could win would be to place Naruto under the Mangekyo's great genjutsu and thereafter someone extract Kurama from Naruto. That being said Naruto would still have a tough time agnaist Itachi (if no other reason than he seems to consider Itachi a comrade, if not a friend in full). Not to mention that even without assistance from Kurama (ie any of the tailed beast forms) Sage mode would just about close the case on its own. Itachi knows about sage mode and nature energy (although why that is or how he found out about either are never satisfactorily explained) but that just means he has an edge in preparation, which as we've seen doesn't do one much good agnaist Naruto. Plus Naruto (even when making use of neither sage mode nor Kurama) still has his sensory abilities to call on. That means that even if he's placed under a genjutsu Kurama can't snap him out of (which be very impressive in its own right) he could probably still fight using taijutsu in concert with his sensory abilities.

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    • Itachi's feats are not just Data book hype they are Data book legit.

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    • not really. he is said to have light speed water bullets, unpredictable exploding clones, can react to actual lightning (lol the guy was blind, and wasn't even a sensor, so I have no idea how that happened), and whatnot more. do I have to explain how allll of those were made untrue just by feats alone, much less statements?

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    • All of that was true he tanked a lighting bolt with this bone armor he even said that.

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    • Lol, Lightspeed water...

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    • Nerosmoke wrote: Itachi's feats are not just Data book hype they are Data book legit.

      The databook omits powers of people they blatantly had and gave powers that were never demonstrated. They are also filled with metaphor and hyperbole. At any point the Databooks must always be interpreted in the spirit of the manga. Considering that Itachi didn't use his Sword and Mirror for literally everything, not even in death where it would've had no downsides, it's quite clear that the Databook's entries for them are hyperbole.

      Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: (lol the guy was blind, and wasn't even a sensor, so I have no idea how that happened)

      He wasn't fully blind at that point. He also didn't have to react to lighting, since Kirin came down with Sasuke's hand movement so all Itachi had to do was predict this hand movement and activate Susanoo the moment it came down. Considering Sasuke was still talking at this point and had a bright blue/white bolt of lightning in his hand against a black/grey background, Itachi wouldn't have needed a lot of effort to figure out when the attack came.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Shapes the world>>>>>>>>>>procceds to get destroyed by MAS`sword and it was not even close.Why didnt itachi use it against kabuto.Use brain please.

      PIS. Absolutes can never be overcome in NV. Who can evade a perfect absolute attack? Lol.

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    • Sasuke and naruto already defeated it.And you have 0 argument against him not using it against kabuto.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Absolutes can never be overcome in NV.

      Gaara's defense was an absolute defense. Sasuke's susanoo was an absolute defense. Both were defeated.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Absolutes can never be overcome in NV.

      Gaara's defense was an absolute defense. Sasuke's susanoo was an absolute defense. Both were defeated.

      Read my statement correctly. Absolute defenses can be overpowered not absolutes of NV. Things like totsuka and yata who have no limit fallacy appointed to them in canon. Sasuke explained in part 1 that absolute defense means an omnidirectional defense. Absolute + Perfect = Omnidirectional All repelling defense. And offense.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Absolutes can never be overcome in NV.

      Gaara's defense was an absolute defense. Sasuke's susanoo was an absolute defense. Both were defeated.

      Read my statement correctly. Absolute defenses can be overpowered not absolutes of NV. Things like totsuka and yata who have no limit fallacy appointed to them in canon. Sasuke explained in part 1 that absolute defense means an omnidirectional defense. Absolute + Perfect = Omnidirectional All repelling defense. And offense.

      THEN.WHY.DIDNT.HE.USED.IT.AGAINST.KABUTO?

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote:

      THEN.WHY.DIDNT.HE.USED.IT.AGAINST.KABUTO?

      Kakashi didnt use kamui on deva's head.... kamui is useless against deva?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam, please do not pyramid quote. To prevent doing so, edit the quotes/comments in between the user's comment you are quoting, like this.

      Also, Kakashi has issues with his chakra reserves so he doesn't use Kamui often, at least at the time of the fight.

      Itachi had infinite chakra

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam, please do not pyramid quote. To prevent doing so, edit the quotes/comments in between the user's comment you are quoting, like this.

      Also, Kakashi has issues with his chakra reserves so he doesn't use Kamui often, at least at the time of the fight.

      Itachi had infinite chakra

      Kakashi was fresh back then .... he used kamui twice for useless projectiles when he couldve ended the main guy.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Kakashi was fresh back then .... he used kamui twice for useless projectiles when he couldve ended the main guy.

      Kakashi had trouble keeping it focused on Deidara long enough to portal his limbs, and that was with Deidara moving in a straight line. He can Kamui small objects or low-mass objects (not clear if mass or volume matters, or both) fast. He can't Kamui Deva's head fast. In later points in the Fourth War when he tries similar tactics against the Gedo Statue he doesn't get enough time to properly warp them, even though the enemy is subject to distractions.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Kakashisologod1 wrote:

      THEN.WHY.DIDNT.HE.USED.IT.AGAINST.KABUTO?

      Kakashi didnt use kamui on deva's head.... kamui is useless against deva?

      Deva path or deidara?Cause he tried it on deidara and vs deva path he couldnt even get close to him he almighty pushed him away every time.Nice try.YM overhyped bullshit itachi weakling.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Kakashi was fresh back then .... he used kamui twice for useless projectiles when he couldve ended the main guy.

      Kakashi had trouble keeping it focused on Deidara long enough to portal his limbs, and that was with Deidara moving in a straight line. He can Kamui small objects or low-mass objects (not clear if mass or volume matters, or both) fast. He can't Kamui Deva's head fast. In later points in the Fourth War when he tries similar tactics against the Gedo Statue he doesn't get enough time to properly warp them, even though the enemy is subject to distractions.

      He could accurately warp the small nail but couldnt warp a big head of deva? Please . You are reaching so bad , its not funny anymore lol . Why do you want to de-hype the mirror so bad?

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    • Yeah because nail has almighty push /s

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    • The question is why hype the mirror so much? We've only seen it like, once, and outside of being hyped by the characters' statements, it hasn't shown much of anything.

      It's like hyping up a game at E3, with the dev's touting all these features that we don't even see.

      "Ohh, Halo 5 is said to be the darkest game in the series!!"

      "Battlefront 2 will have an entirely Imperial centric campaign!!"

      "Yata Mirror makes Itachi invincible when used!!"

      Then everyone goes off making up their own assumptions and overhypes it. Whenever Itachi is brought up in a versus debate, everyone defending him only has one thing to fall back on when his opponent is stronger than him. Guess what it is?

      "So...the Yata Mirror..."

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    • UntappedRage wrote: The question is why hype the mirror so much? We've only seen it like, once, and outside of being hyped by the characters' statements, it hasn't shown much of anything.

      It's like hyping up a game at E3, with the dev's touting all these features that we don't even see.

      "Ohh, Halo 5 is said to be the darkest game in the series!!"

      "Battlefront 2 will have an entirely Imperial centric campaign!!"

      "Yata Mirror makes Itachi invincible when used!!"

      Then everyone goes off making up their own assumptions and overhypes it. Whenever Itachi is brought up in a versus debate, everyone defending him only has one thing to fall back on when his opponent is stronger than him. Guess what it is?

      "So...the Yata Mirror..."

      Fallacious logic . So kisame has samehada , so kisame vs guy , guy will win with eight gates , but with samehada? Nah ... the match wouldnt turn out A okay for either side .... so what you are indirectly or directly saying is kisame's samehada or kinkaku and ginkaku's sage tools shouldnt be brought up in a fight? Gunbai shouldnt be brought up in a madara fight? Seven swords of mist shouldnt be used in a versus debate? Lmfao you must be kidding me . Tools are the tool user's own power , you thinking its seperate from itachi so automatically null and results in oneshot of every other character doesnt mean its invalid . Thats just one sided excuse at best . By your logic naruto shouldnt use kurama in a fight . Bee shouldnt use gyuki in a fight . Is it thier own power? No . Gaara shouldnt even use the sand of his gourd because the sand is his mother's soul according to Rasa . Yamato shouldnt use wood element , madara shouldnt use wood element , Sasuke shouldnt use EMS etc etc etc all of these are not thier own power . I could go on about stolen powers and "asspulls" but you should get the point .

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    • Featless YM is somehow supposed to make Itachi win ever versus debate????

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Featless YM is somehow supposed to make Itachi win ever versus debate????

      Why should the director lie? Why need feats when feats and statements are written by the same director?

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    • By that logic hiruzen>hashirama

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: By that logic hiruzen>hashirama

      Agree. Hiruzen in his old age cannot even hold his enma staff properly , you cant compare that guy with a young fresh hashirama. Hiruzen is indeed stronger than hashirama.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Kakashisologod1 wrote: By that logic hiruzen>hashirama

      Agree. Hiruzen in his old age cannot even hold his enma staff properly , you cant compare that guy with a young fresh hashirama. Hiruzen is indeed stronger than hashirama.

      What....?

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    • Damn, then I guess Kimimaro can solo the whole Narutoverse.

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    • Hyperbull wrote: Damn, then I guess Kimimaro can solo the whole Narutoverse.

      If only he wasnt sick /s

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
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      16:11, December 5, 2017
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    • @kakashisologod why are you guys even bothering to argue this stupid notion that the Yata Mirror & Totsuka sword gave itachi perfect defense and offense is beyond me, wouldn’t that make itachi invincible.

      Not to mention he was an edo with free will but didn’t use either against Kabuto or Nagato, further to defeat madara or the ten tails or kayuga and end the war altogether you know since he was an invincible edo. Dude just ignore these guys with that ridiculous argument.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: @kakashisologod why are you guys even bothering to argue this stupid notion that the Yata Mirror & Totsuka sword gave itachi perfect defense and offense is beyond me, wouldn’t that make itachi invincible.

      Databook hype and the notion that words can only ever be meant literally, despite massive amounts of evidence that Databooks are not infallible and words are used in hyperbole and metaphor all the time.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Databook hype and the notion that words can only ever be meant literally, despite massive amounts of evidence that Databooks are not infallible and words are used in hyperbole and metaphor all the time.

      Exactly! We all know the Databooks are in fact fallible since characters rarely perform according to their stats. And the writer/s love to use colorful figurative language when describing the abilities of individuals. So why argue with these guys?

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      Thekillman wrote: Databook hype and the notion that words can only ever be meant literally, despite massive amounts of evidence that Databooks are not infallible and words are used in hyperbole and metaphor all the time.

      Exactly! We all know the Databooks are in fact fallible since characters rarely perform according to their stats. And the writer/s love to use colorful figurative language when describing the abilities of individuals. So why argue with these guys?

      Databook can be colorful language but not until its proven wrong by the director so until then the words are valid . So Totsuka and Yata are perfect offense and defense , you just cant accept that fact . The very reason he didnt use it suggests it can destroy the whole world if used , so kishi nerfed it , not only that , kabuto claimed itachi had more power and more jutsu than he had shown as of now , so that means itachi was completely holding back in kabuto's fight . Either itachi was holding back all the time like he did in kabutos fight or it was A pis made by kishi to not allow itachi to use it to destroy NV and kabuto . Will there be any plot progression if the weapons are used in that manner? Its very mechanics make it to be omnidirectional and capable of repelling every attack and sealing everything , so why should the words be hyperbole? Its only hyperbole when the mechanics dont go with the statement like temari's wind . She has never shown the capacity to wreck a continent let alone a universe and its mechanics are vacuum blades summoned to cut through substances , nothing more , but itachis weapons are different . It was stated to be perfect and the mechanics align with the perfection idea , not just words . Yet you are purposefully trying to find loopholes which the director denies . And the very manga denies . I can deny madara's feats and every statement about him then? They all come from the same manga ... so concede already , no use in denying straight facts .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Databook can be colorful language but not until its proven wrong by the director so until then the words are valid . So Totsuka and Yata are perfect offense and defense , you just cant accept that fact . The very reason he didnt use it suggests it can destroy the whole world if used , so kishi nerfed it , not only that , kabuto claimed itachi had more power and more jutsu than he had shown as of now , so that means itachi was completely holding back in kabuto's fight . Either itachi was holding back all the time like he did in kabutos fight or it was A pis made by kishi to not allow itachi to use it to destroy NV and kabuto . Will there be any plot progression if the weapons are used in that manner? Its very mechanics make it to be omnidirectional and capable of repelling every attack and sealing everything , so why should the words be hyperbole? Its only hyperbole when the mechanics dont go with the statement like temari's wind . She has never shown the capacity to wreck a continent let alone a universe and its mechanics are vacuum blades summoned to cut through substances , nothing more , but itachis weapons are different . It was stated to be perfect and the mechanics align with the perfection idea , not just words . Yet you are purposefully trying to find loopholes which the director denies . And the very manga denies . I can deny madara's feats and every statement about him then? They all come from the same manga ... so concede already , no use in denying straight facts .

      The only fact I have to accept is that those items were never shown to be what the Databook described to be either in the manga or anime, even when itachi had the perfect opportunity to display the power of said items when he was an edo. But he being a genius knew it would not be effective against high caliber opponents so he didn’t bother to use.

      Manga feats/lack there of trumps Databook accept it, your argument is ridiculous and this is the extent of my rebuttal of this nonsense.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Agree. Hiruzen in his old age cannot even hold his enma staff properly , you cant compare that guy with a young fresh hashirama. Hiruzen is indeed stronger than hashirama.

      nAtRiX oPiNiOn InVaLiDaTeD

      eRrOr

      fAcTs nOt fOuNd

      lOgIc cAnNoT bE pRoCceSsEd

      gOoD dAy

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Databook can be colorful language but not until its proven wrong by the director so until then the words are valid . So Totsuka and Yata are perfect offense and defense , you just cant accept that fact . The very reason he didnt use it suggests it can destroy the whole world if used , so kishi nerfed it , not only that , kabuto claimed itachi had more power and more jutsu than he had shown as of now , so that means itachi was completely holding back in kabuto's fight . Either itachi was holding back all the time like he did in kabutos fight or it was A pis made by kishi to not allow itachi to use it to destroy NV and kabuto . Will there be any plot progression if the weapons are used in that manner? Its very mechanics make it to be omnidirectional and capable of repelling every attack and sealing everything , so why should the words be hyperbole? Its only hyperbole when the mechanics dont go with the statement like temari's wind . She has never shown the capacity to wreck a continent let alone a universe and its mechanics are vacuum blades summoned to cut through substances , nothing more , but itachis weapons are different . It was stated to be perfect and the mechanics align with the perfection idea , not just words . Yet you are purposefully trying to find loopholes which the director denies . And the very manga denies . I can deny madara's feats and every statement about him then? They all come from the same manga ... so concede already , no use in denying straight facts .

      I'm translating...

      Basically Natrix is saying Itachi is the strongest being in existence and can defeat everybody all at once because he has the Yata Mirror of which we have only his FanFiction tier assumptions based on an inaccurate databook for it's feats and level of power because we've never actually seen it in action.

      Me having fallacious logic? The irony. I'm not the one that lacks evidence to support my claim, if you haven't realized that then, well, it's rather sad.

      Literally the foundation of your argument is built upon an already widely known inaccurate source, but you try and reinforce your reasoning with mere assumptions based on statements made by characters within the universe. It literally places your entire already rocky foundation under heavy amounts of conjecture. Not only that, but you state your assumptions as fact, of which it is not, due to the fact of the many inconsistencies within it and is purely speculative in nature.

      Yes, you can deny many of Madara's statements about his power, along with a plethora of other characters as most of it is mere exaggeration, but you cannot deny what we have seen in the actual manga. You cannot make the assumption that Hiruzen is more powerful than Hashirama just because Hiruzen was old and the title he held. Not only that, you claim that he couldn't even hold his staff properly in old age? Have you even read the manga?

      You repeatedly undermine your own logic countless times, contradicting yourself within your own arguments. It's only hyperbole when the statement does not go with the mechanics? But Itachi's is different because it's mechanics fall in line with statements made from characters? What? That doesn't even make any sense. You actually want to create a "supporting" argument based on complete character rhetoric? By your logic if my sword cuts, and someone I knew stated I could cut through composite armor, my mechanics align with the statement so obviously it isn't an hyperbolic statement. I suppose the classic example of hyperbole's is also not a hyperbole within your logic, wherein which if you were that hungry I guess you can eat full zebra's.

      Temari's wind is overstated because it has never shown the capacity to destroy continents, but Itachi "has" "shown" the "full" capabilities of the Tosuka Blade and Yata Mirror? Where was that? In your dreams? Seriously? What a way to undermine yourself.

      My previous argument's were not at all irrelevant, as it was an analogy to your entire rationale, because that's the substance of your argument: comprised of pure hypothetical guess work made with conjectural suppositional evidence.

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    • UntappedRage wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Agree. Hiruzen in his old age cannot even hold his enma staff properly , you cant compare that guy with a young fresh hashirama. Hiruzen is indeed stronger than hashirama.

      nAtRiX oPiNiOn InVaLiDaTeD

      eRrOr

      fAcTs nOt fOuNd

      lOgIc cAnNoT bE pRoCceSsEd

      gOoD dAy

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Databook can be colorful language but not until its proven wrong by the director so until then the words are valid . So Totsuka and Yata are perfect offense and defense , you just cant accept that fact . The very reason he didnt use it suggests it can destroy the whole world if used , so kishi nerfed it , not only that , kabuto claimed itachi had more power and more jutsu than he had shown as of now , so that means itachi was completely holding back in kabuto's fight . Either itachi was holding back all the time like he did in kabutos fight or it was A pis made by kishi to not allow itachi to use it to destroy NV and kabuto . Will there be any plot progression if the weapons are used in that manner? Its very mechanics make it to be omnidirectional and capable of repelling every attack and sealing everything , so why should the words be hyperbole? Its only hyperbole when the mechanics dont go with the statement like temari's wind . She has never shown the capacity to wreck a continent let alone a universe and its mechanics are vacuum blades summoned to cut through substances , nothing more , but itachis weapons are different . It was stated to be perfect and the mechanics align with the perfection idea , not just words . Yet you are purposefully trying to find loopholes which the director denies . And the very manga denies . I can deny madara's feats and every statement about him then? They all come from the same manga ... so concede already , no use in denying straight facts .

      I'm translating...

      Basically Natrix is saying Itachi is the strongest being in existence and can defeat everybody all at once because he has the Yata Mirror of which we have only his FanFiction tier assumptions based on an inaccurate databook for it's feats and level of power because we've never actually seen it in action.

      Me having fallacious logic? The irony. I'm not the one that lacks evidence to support my claim, if you haven't realized that then, well, it's rather sad.

      Literally the foundation of your argument is built upon an already widely known inaccurate source, but you try and reinforce your reasoning with mere assumptions based on statements made by characters within the universe. It literally places your entire already rocky foundation under heavy amounts of conjecture. Not only that, but you state your assumptions as fact, of which it is not, due to the fact of the many inconsistencies within it and is purely speculative in nature.

      Yes, you can deny many of Madara's statements about his power, along with a plethora of other characters as most of it is mere exaggeration, but you cannot deny what we have seen in the actual manga. You cannot make the assumption that Hiruzen is more powerful than Hashirama just because Hiruzen was old and the title he held. Not only that, you claim that he couldn't even hold his staff properly in old age? Have you even read the manga?

      You repeatedly undermine your own logic countless times, contradicting yourself within your own arguments. It's only hyperbole when the statement does not go with the mechanics? But Itachi's is different because it's mechanics fall in line with statements made from characters? What? That doesn't even make any sense. You actually want to create a "supporting" argument based on complete character rhetoric? By your logic if my sword cuts, and someone I knew stated I could cut through composite armor, my mechanics align with the statement so obviously it isn't an hyperbolic statement. I suppose the classic example of hyperbole's is also not a hyperbole within your logic, wherein which if you were that hungry I guess you can eat full zebra's.

      Temari's wind is overstated because it has never shown the capacity to destroy continents, but Itachi "has" "shown" the "full" capabilities of the Tosuka Blade and Yata Mirror? Where was that? In your dreams? Seriously? What a way to undermine yourself.

      My previous argument's were not at all irrelevant, as it was an analogy to your entire rationale, because that's the substance of your argument: comprised of pure hypothetical guess work made with conjectural suppositional evidence.

      The only fallacious logic here is yours and your biased way of making madara the god of everything which irritates me to no extent , your only argument is itachi didnt use it and that databook is hyperbole and manga statement is hyperbole , other than that which argument do you have? Yeah itachi would simply slap madaras arsenal around with these weapons , you know that , but you keep being in denial . Manga fact = Itachi is completely invincible with spirit weapons , spirit weapons are magical so can do anything , spirits weapons dont have physical form so cannot be damaged , spirit weapons were stated to be absolutely perfect offense and defense , Kaguya herself in the form of black zetsu stated this , Kaguya was only called merely immortal , madara was merely called immortal , all of these manga facts and you saying your stupid biased reasons for downplaying the weapons are manga facts , doesnt make it one . Yup hiruzen is stronger than hashirama in his prime = manga fact . Anything else you want me to debunk? Yup i would like it if you compare an old death bed strain naruto with a prime boruto when naruto gets old ... smh . See things with unbiased logic , or bring valid proof for your statements , simply using fallacious nonsense logic over and over again . You are acting fully stupid again , temaris wind is a hyperbole but isnt one in the contextual sense . Because she could rip the body of the strongest shield man with her vacuum blades though with some help . The description is the key , the description , not she has shown it or anything , stop misunderstanding my statements , even if she hasnt shown to be capable of wrecking a continent , if the description of her databook says she can destroy continents with the force of her wind , I'll believe it . Just the title alone is metaphor or a very contextual statement , though in a way , temari can destroy almost everything in NV considering she ripped 3rd's armour and body with some help . Yata mirrors mechanics have been stated to block and deflect all types of attacks , Totsuka has been stated to seal and cut any thing and cannot be avoided with speed or any other implement , because its an absolutely perfect attack which goes with unlimited speed and flawlessness in attack . These are stated as its mechanics , so if you dont want to accept it , even though BZ says these mechanics of weapons and attributes make him completely invincible unlike some mere rinnegan wielder you put above itachi , then i dont know what kind of proof to bring to prove it yet again . The proof is on the table , if you dont want to accept it , keep up your opinion its your wish though it doesnt agree with manga fact .

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    • It isnt manga fact if it hasnt shown.Nice try though.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: The only fallacious logic here is yours and your biased way of making madara the god of everything which irritates me to no extent , your only argument is itachi didnt use it and that databook is hyperbole and manga statement is hyperbole , other than that which argument do you have? Yeah itachi would simply slap madaras arsenal around with these weapons , you know that , but you keep being in denial . Manga fact = Itachi is completely invincible with spirit weapons , spirit weapons are magical so can do anything , spirits weapons dont have physical form so cannot be damaged , spirit weapons were stated to be absolutely perfect offense and defense , Kaguya herself in the form of black zetsu stated this , Kaguya was only called merely immortal , madara was merely called immortal , all of these manga facts and you saying your stupid biased reasons for downplaying the weapons are manga facts , doesnt make it one . Yup hiruzen is stronger than hashirama in his prime = manga fact . Anything else you want me to debunk? Yup i would like it if you compare an old death bed strain naruto with a prime boruto when naruto gets old ... smh . See things with unbiased logic , or bring valid proof for your statements , simply using fallacious nonsense logic over and over again . You are acting fully stupid again , temaris wind is a hyperbole but isnt one in the contextual sense . Because she could rip the body of the strongest shield man with her vacuum blades though with some help . The description is the key , the description , not she has shown it or anything , stop misunderstanding my statements , even if she hasnt shown to be capable of wrecking a continent , if the description of her databook says she can destroy continents with the force of her wind , I'll believe it . Just the title alone is metaphor or a very contextual statement , though in a way , temari can destroy almost everything in NV considering she ripped 3rd's armour and body with some help . Yata mirrors mechanics have been stated to block and deflect all types of attacks , Totsuka has been stated to seal and cut any thing and cannot be avoided with speed or any other implement , because its an absolutely perfect attack which goes with unlimited speed and flawlessness in attack . These are stated as its mechanics , so if you dont want to accept it , even though BZ says these mechanics of weapons and attributes make him completely invincible unlike some mere rinnegan wielder you put above itachi , then i dont know what kind of proof to bring to prove it yet again . The proof is on the table , if you dont want to accept it , keep up your opinion its your wish though it doesnt agree with manga fact .

      You should understand what the words "fallacy" and "logic" mean, but, however ironic, your post is littered with many illegitimate points with faulty reasoning, let alone having any coherency nor evidence to back up your claims. If anything, your response is fallacy galore.

      The only fallacious logic here is yours and your biased way of making madara the god of everything which irritates me to no extent , your only argument is itachi didnt use it and that databook is hyperbole and manga statement is hyperbole

      Pray tell me, good sir, where have I made out Madara to be the "god of everything"? I wrote that they were prime examples of where characters make hyperbolic statements of their powers, not what you accused me of.

      My only argument is that Itachi didn't use it? I suggest you scroll up and read everything else that I, and many others have written. No, my argument right now is that we have not seen any of these "magical" abilities you speak of that the Yata Mirror or Totsuka Blade possesses outside of what was seen in the manga. There is just little-to-no evidence of it.

      I did not say that the Databook was hyperbole. No, you obviously did not read it, as I said it was full of inaccurate inconsistencies with the manga and thus an unreliable source of information.

      You only have the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror as the sole factor in winning this battle; 2 abilities that were shown once against a significantly weaker character in such a "limited" capacity, as well as having nothing you described ever shown in the manga.

      Yes, the manga statement would be taken as an exaggeration. It's character rhetoric. Nothing more, nothing less. It's less of a confirmation and more for shock and awe factor among the audience. It's been shown many times where one character utters how powerful the other one by overstating most of his abilities, and Madara was one of them.

      Yup hiruzen is stronger than hashirama in his prime = manga fact . Anything else you want me to debunk? Yup i would like it if you compare an old death bed strain naruto with a prime boruto when naruto gets old

      We've seen Prime Naruto and Prime Hashirama in action, we've never seen Prime Hiruzen in action, so they cannot be compared. You can compare old Hiruzen and Prime Hashirama because we have seen them at this stage, but you cannot compare them both in their primes for reasons explained. No, you cannot compare an "old death bed Naruto" with Prime Boruto because we have yet to see both of them at this stage. You also cannot "debunk" something with just your word and no evidence. Seriously, if you want to talk about logical fallacies, this is one of them.

      Manga fact = Itachi is completely invincible with spirit weapons , spirit weapons are magical so can do anything , spirits weapons dont have physical form so cannot be damaged , spirit weapons were stated to be absolutely perfect offense and defense , Kaguya herself in the form of black zetsu stated this

      Surely you mean FanFiction fact? Pulling information out of a Databook and then using your own head-canon is not actually "manga fact", so have you believe. None of what you just said was shown in the manga. In addition, Black Zetsu is a manifestation of her will, not actually "her".

      if the description of her databook says she can destroy continents with the force of her wind , I'll believe it

      That honestly would be less of a exaggeration and more of something to be disputed until Temari actually does something that makes that point actually believable. Until then, it would just be taken as an inaccuracy.

      Just as Itachi's Yata Mirror has not shown the abilities you have described, so it's a rather moot point. It's that simple.

      You are acting fully stupid again , temaris wind is a hyperbole but isnt one in the contextual sense

      What? Isn't one in the "contextual sense"? A hyperbole is a hyperbole, exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. If you change the context of the hyperbole to the point where it's no longer hyperbole, then obviously it's no longer a hyperbole! That way of thinking is just ridiculous, because then every hyperbole is only hyperbole in a contextual sense.

      "I'm so hungry I can eat a whole Zebra!"

      Hyperbolic statement, yes? Due to the nature of the limit human beings can actually ingest, you can't actually eat a whole Zebra obviously. But what if I change the circumstance's of me being human? What if I'm a 200ft tall giant? Exactly.

      That kind of logic, where "a hyperbole is only a hyperbole until it's not" is just flawed, because then everything will be a bunch of "what-if's".

      The Yata Mirror and Totsuka has not shown it is capable of many of the things you speak of, as it has only appeared a single time, with limited use. It can be used as a part of your argument, but it cannot be the backbone of it as it lacks too much evidence to actually be of use.

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    • Wow everything you just said is wrong . Lmfao what? BZ is Kaguya will but not Kaguya herself? Lmfao "will" means the exact same thinking and knowledge of kaguya not a fabricated one . Lmfao which means BZ has the exact information kaguya has stored in her mind when she lived in her time , should I give an englush lesson now? "Manifestation and will " = the exact same person as kaguya just that her human body doesnt exist in that form , if you know basic biology , info is stored in mind lmfao not in body . So there goes your argument .

      Ok if the feats done by yata mirror contradicts the DB , I can say its hyperbole but until then?

      BZ hyping the weapons are your famfiction fact not mine . Dont confuse that . He in other words kaguya's mind stated the weapons are absolutely invincible making the user completely invincible and the databook confirms it , so we've three sets of concrete evidence . I've zero need for your fanfic . I believe the manga more than your low balling of mighty characters and kishimoto's data book . Feats are decided by kishimoto so I've zero need to seperate the autheticity of feats from statements .


      By your logic , nagato defeats hashi? Huh? You may be wondering why I'm asking this question , but the thing is , hashi's wood was stated to be induced with life - force to make it a living thing unlike inanimate wood so thats a proof its not made of chakra . Its stated in a statement . Nagato can absorb all chakra so if you want to ignore the above statemwnt and go with feats , nagato simply trashes hashis arsenal ; as he can simply absorb the chakra composed wood infinitely as preta has never showed a limit . Madara also loses , Susanoo is a chakra composed being ; preta has infinite absorption so madara has zero hope of beating nagato . By your logic every thing in NV can be beaten by nagato because he can absorb chakra infinitely because ony statements confirm that there are things different from chakra so you don't like statements but pure feats by your statement .


      Again your fallacious-ness is showing ; we've proof that temari can destroy NV given the fact that she was claimed as the strongest win user and naruto FRS is not a penetrative attack but a poison . She ripped the strongest shield combined with lightning armor with some help which FRS couldnt scratch without even lightning armor coated in it . How about this ; there is obviously no natural substance more stronger than 3rd raikage's coated armor body so temari can destroy NV substances in a sense so no hyper-bole there .


      Kabuto said itachi didnt show a lot of powers in that fight meaning he was holding back to not hurt kabuto so another explanation why he didnt use weapons .


      Name one statement within a context which has been proven false lmfao and no excuses , Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi than every former and after kage according to iruka and konoha history , and hiruzen never denied that . You can't go giving excuses to prove a fact wrong because you're asspulling as far as I know , something which kishi contradicts with his reliable statements .


      Boruto sh*ts on old naruto's arsenal , or try claiming old madara beats prime hashi? Do you think or possibly believe old madara sh*ts on prime hashi's arsenal? Lmfao .

      Kaguya had every three great doujutsu and used IT and knew every thing in the world and manipulated the rikudou tablet so she knows whats written in that , so your lowballing statements are proven wrong .

      Not shown =/ not capable . If science says meteors can wreck the earth , who the hell are you to state a contradictory "fact"? Otherwise you should prove it can't which you without being a space scientist can't do , in this case you without being kishi can't go changing statements as you wish .

      Good day to you , and if you seriously believe your fanfic , then go ahead .

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    • Lmao.Why didnt he use YM to block kabutos attacks?Good day to you sir.

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    • Lmao , you read my comment? Kabuto clearly said itachi had so many powers which he was holding back .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Lmao , you read my comment? Kabuto clearly said itachi had so many powers which he was holding back .

      When did Kabuto say this? Can I see a chapter and page please?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Lmao , you read my comment? Kabuto clearly said itachi had so many powers which he was holding back .

      Why would he risk sasukes life?I can understand Tostuka blade,but not YM as it cant hurt kabuto.Nice try though.

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    • Ym repels things so kabuto's dragon would blitz kabuto himself . Anyway that is not enough proof to downplay yata mirror , my friend , nice try though .

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    • Yata mirror makes any attacks to Itachi pointless. Naruto can't win.

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    • Again, Yata Mirror is able to repel most attacks because it has that ability to adapt to any chakra nature. The rasengan for instance doesn't have any chakra nature. And also, it can't adapt so senjutsu attacks, much like the truth seeking orbs. So not any attack is rendered useless against it.

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    • The Rasegan is wind, and the Chidori is lighting,

      • source everthing ever.

      What is with the people on this forum trying to pass lies.

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    • No, the Rasengan in not Wind. Hence the entire sub-plot of Naruto trying to apply Wind Release to the Rasengan.

      The Rasengan is literally a swirling ball of chakra.

      Sorry to crash your parade once again.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Wow everything you just said is wrong . Lmfao what? BZ is Kaguya will but not Kaguya herself? Lmfao "will" means the exact same thinking and knowledge of kaguya not a fabricated one . Lmfao which means BZ has the exact information kaguya has stored in her mind when she lived in her time , should I give an englush lesson now? "Manifestation and will " = the exact same person as kaguya just that her human body doesnt exist in that form , if you know basic biology , info is stored in mind lmfao not in body . So there goes your argument .

      Ok if the feats done by yata mirror contradicts the DB , I can say its hyperbole but until then?

      BZ hyping the weapons are your famfiction fact not mine . Dont confuse that . He in other words kaguya's mind stated the weapons are absolutely invincible making the user completely invincible and the databook confirms it , so we've three sets of concrete evidence . I've zero need for your fanfic . I believe the manga more than your low balling of mighty characters and kishimoto's data book . Feats are decided by kishimoto so I've zero need to seperate the autheticity of feats from statements .


      By your logic , nagato defeats hashi? Huh? You may be wondering why I'm asking this question , but the thing is , hashi's wood was stated to be induced with life - force to make it a living thing unlike inanimate wood so thats a proof its not made of chakra . Its stated in a statement . Nagato can absorb all chakra so if you want to ignore the above statemwnt and go with feats , nagato simply trashes hashis arsenal ; as he can simply absorb the chakra composed wood infinitely as preta has never showed a limit . Madara also loses , Susanoo is a chakra composed being ; preta has infinite absorption so madara has zero hope of beating nagato . By your logic every thing in NV can be beaten by nagato because he can absorb chakra infinitely because ony statements confirm that there are things different from chakra so you don't like statements but pure feats by your statement .


      Again your fallacious-ness is showing ; we've proof that temari can destroy NV given the fact that she was claimed as the strongest win user and naruto FRS is not a penetrative attack but a poison . She ripped the strongest shield combined with lightning armor with some help which FRS couldnt scratch without even lightning armor coated in it . How about this ; there is obviously no natural substance more stronger than 3rd raikage's coated armor body so temari can destroy NV substances in a sense so no hyper-bole there .


      Kabuto said itachi didnt show a lot of powers in that fight meaning he was holding back to not hurt kabuto so another explanation why he didnt use weapons .


      Name one statement within a context which has been proven false lmfao and no excuses , Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi than every former and after kage according to iruka and konoha history , and hiruzen never denied that . You can't go giving excuses to prove a fact wrong because you're asspulling as far as I know , something which kishi contradicts with his reliable statements .


      Boruto sh*ts on old naruto's arsenal , or try claiming old madara beats prime hashi? Do you think or possibly believe old madara sh*ts on prime hashi's arsenal? Lmfao .

      Kaguya had every three great doujutsu and used IT and knew every thing in the world and manipulated the rikudou tablet so she knows whats written in that , so your lowballing statements are proven wrong .

      Not shown =/ not capable . If science says meteors can wreck the earth , who the hell are you to state a contradictory "fact"? Otherwise you should prove it can't which you without being a space scientist can't do , in this case you without being kishi can't go changing statements as you wish .

      Good day to you , and if you seriously believe your fanfic , then go ahead .

      My FanFic? Nah dude, I'm just cross-checking your statements with actual facts and pointing out the still very obvious irony when you said that I had "fallacious logic".

      Most of your posts contained actual things you made up, whilst I just challenged them with actual fact checking.

      I never wrote speculation, you did. Hence labeling my post as fanfic doesn't make any sense.

      "Kaguya's Human Body". Yep. Surrrrrreeee buddy.

      "Manifestation of her Will" doesn't mean it's actually her dude, it means he's a being created to do whatever she wants to do. Their goals are the same, but the way they think? Completely different.

      Just because they have the same information, doesn't mean they have the same personality or train of thought. A real-world example of this? Dissociative identity disorder.

      However in the case of Zetsu and Kaguya, they are two different beings.

      Information is stored in the mind, eh? Golly Gee Wiz, I did not know that! Where do you store your information? Your ass? /s

      You're also wrong there, since information is stored within the Brain, not the Mind, within the limbic system. The mind is part of the invisible, transcendent world of thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination whilst the brain is the physical organ that controls most of the activities of the body, processing, integrating, and coordinating the information it receives. Oh, but you would know this right? I mean, it's basic biology!

      Literally two (three?) of your statements that are completely inaccurate in the opening stages of your argument. I'm not going to bother with you anymore, seeing as how both you and Nerosmoke don't even bother using this wiki for the simplest of information pertaining to this verse.

      So you can keep your "englush" lesson, though I do advise you take some English lessons since you are in dire need of them.

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    • Rasenshuriken is chakra nature+chakra form.Rasengan is just chakra form.And btw it wouldnt be able to hurt kabuto because thats littearly sound and kabuto wasnt hurt by it.NICE TRY.

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    • I think this untapped rage guy thinks and logicalizes through his ass . Like literally . He's so stubborn and obnoxious , so much that he says , BZ is just another form of her lmfao . What kind of foolish garbage logic that is I wonder . It's literally stated that "manifestation of will" is same as the person at hand . That is why BZ could read the tablet . Only an utter gibberish fool would say BZ is not an exact memory possessor of kaguya , or he wouldn't say baseless statements would he? Why should he say baseless bullsh*t on things he has zero knowledge about? Go learn what "manifestation of will" represents in naruto without making yourself look foolish and retarded . There's no way he can read the rikudou tablet if he wasn't kaguya herself since he was one of the first beings and he didn't have the sharingan or rinnegan to decipher it . He wouldnt say baseless statements . "BUT oh it was simply hyped like any other statement !" my ass . I don't care about your stupid nonsense trash fanfiction . I believe the director more than I believe you , and there we've another guy so hyped on making himself look like a fool when the databook says it can repel anything by changing every attribute and Black zetsu confirms that statement . He called him completely invincible , which means yata expands and omnidirectionally repels all of naruto's attacks and kills him with his own attacks . Or Totsuka pierces or cuts him down at unlimited speed , it cannot be evaded because its an absolutely perfect attack . Yata is an absolutely perfect defense . By that vladroasus logic , Shinra tensei contains all elements except yin and yang so it converts into fire to repel wind and convert into water to block fire , is it? Lmfao . Contains all nature tranformation including yinyang doesnt it uses every element individually stop being stupid . And the irony is he agrees with the fact that BZ has the same information kaguya had , whats personality between them gonna change the fact behind the legend of the totsuka and yata mirror? Lmfao what foolish utter gibberishness . Naruto gets defeated easily .

      Vladroasus@ and just why can't it adapt to senjutsu sh*t attacks when it makes itachi completely invincible may I infer? Lmfao go away , TSB was not called completely invincible so don't post trash bin worthy posts . Why should the trash bin TSB be above yata mirror? When kaguya herself admitted yata + totsuka >>>> TSB + any other NV weapon including nunoboku no ken?

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    • @Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam I agree with @UntappedRage. Tbh it's you who's not thinking reasonably. In my opinion of course, you think however you want to.

      Like your argument about calling TSB "trashbin" and saying the Yata Mirror is better. That's pretty unreasonable. Lol it's actually kinda funny

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    • My kudos button doesn't work anymore :(

      Natrix is just salty at this point, literally his first sentence this man is calling me out lmao

      Are you seriously calling me stubborn and obnoxious? Can you actually not see how ironic that is? Sad!

      Also, get this man a dictionary! He doesn't seem to understand what we're even saying! Literally his entire reply doesn't even make sense in the context of mine.

      Hmmmmmmm 🤔🤔🤔

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    • Yeah okay , keep agreeing with each other , it's literally useless arguing with people who outright debunnk the manga with thier fucking claims . It's pointless to argue , since the manga states " Itachi is completely invincible" and confirmed by data book by saying " Perfect absolute offense and perfect absolute defense with no flaws or weakness" , kaguya's will said this fact, her will has the exact same information she'd in her lifetime otherwise he wouldn't know to read the tablet or know about kaguya's revival lmfao , but yeah people are so foolish these days , I can only see the salty foolishness in some comments , anyways fact is fact no matter what you try to change.

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    • Evry jutsu has a weakness-itachi.Yet it does not imply to himself?

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    • Don't care for your fanfiction when the manga directly contradicts your comment . It might not imply to himself since he's the author of that statement . Anyways fact is fact , you can't change that .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Yeah okay , keep agreeing with each other , it's literally useless arguing with people who outright debunnk the manga with thier fucking claims . It's pointless to argue , since the manga states " Itachi is completely invincible" and confirmed by data book by saying " Perfect absolute offense and perfect absolute defense with no flaws or weakness" , kaguya's will said this fact, her will has the exact same information she'd in her lifetime otherwise he wouldn't know to read the tablet or know about kaguya's revival lmfao , but yeah people are so foolish these days , I can only see the salty foolishness in some comments , anyways fact is fact no matter what you try to change.

      Gaara's absolute defense? Circumvented by Rock Lee.

      Gaara's dome which is his stronger self defense? Pierced by Sasuke.

      Chidori, famed to be able to pierce anything? Stopped by Fourth Raikage's armour.

      Susanoo, claimed to be the real absolute defense? Broken by many people like Hashi, Sasuke, Tsunade, etc.

      The manga might have some character say something. But it doesn't make it true. It's only true if Kishi actually proves the words through actual feats. If not, the statements were just hyperbole from the characters.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Don't care for your fanfiction when the manga directly contradicts your comment . It might not imply to himself since he's the author of that statement . Anyways fact is fact , you can't change that .

      Itachi has 0 feats and there are 0 facts about YM being omnidriectional.

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    • Ultra Big Ball Rasengan Barrage?

      Even the YT can actually block any Jutsu's,its defense is somewhat not 360

      -Aswell even the Armored Susanoo is technically durable, UBBRB was too much..it technically destroys anything into a molecular level,Hence even Naruto's normal Rasengan destroys Toneri's TSB.

      -in Base Form,..Lol SM Naruto owns him, SM Naruto's Frog Kata fighting style,Can definitely injure Itachi no matter what blocks he make.

      -Speed..SM is faster than Itachi

      I can't give any explanations here cuz' I'm seriously tired

      ~People whose obviously ItachiTards are seriously underating SM Senjutsu..Live a life guys.

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    • Blaming itachi tards even though there is only one "itachitard" here and thats me lol. Naruto fanboys are sucking his dick so hard right now. How is SM faster than itachi when hebi is sasuke is far faster than MS sasuke who with three tomoe was capable of piercing V1 A? An injured MS sasuke according to jugo was faster than V1 Bee who is near as fast or equally fast as V2 A . SM senjutsu can suck dick all day that dickless senjutsu . Lord itachi's taijutsu is the one getting underestimated here. He was simply spanking hebi sasuke around like nothing with taijutsu. Guy called the entire black ops force to fight three tomoe itachi in fear of his taijutsu . Even though he had asuma as backup . Guy didnt know tsukuyomi and amaterasu and susanoo at that time . Itachi ran so fast back to nagatos side before naruto and bee could recover from touching the ground or look up(talking about kcm + bee vs itachi confrontation look at those scans clearly) .

      Absolute defense means omnidirectional . Gaara sand is omnidirectional . Sasuke even said absolute defense means omnidirectional in naruto in gaara vs sasuke chuunin exams chapters .

      Gaara's defense was not called absolutely perfect defense so he cannot be correlated to itachi . Both those words must exist . Absolute and Perfect . Not ony that to be completely INVincible , your shield and offense must be completely perfect in its use . Itachi is completely invincible . Cannot be completely invincible if yata mirror is not 360° , yata mirror doesnt have substance , its intangible and spiritual , so it can convert into any shape necessary like gudodama . Data book states those facts so itachi defeats SM trash jutsu easily not even a contest . Itachi can simply react to naruto's every attack as he showed a light speed reaction by reacting to kirin in his blood coughing death bed . Not in prime . Kirin is lightspeed in data book . Sasuke even compared kirin to amaterasu speed , amaterasu is lightspeed as it appears wherever the eye looks as further fact . Chidori wasnt stated to unstoppable , chidori blade was and was proven by the fact sasuke sliced madaras body in half even though he was the strongest character with the best durability at that moment .

      Even if it was resisted , it doesnt matter , itachis weapons are called spirit weapons and perfect defense and perfect offense so until it is proven wrong you dont have the right to give it weaknesses .

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    • So, you say that Kirin is comparable with amaterasu in speed. The forth Raikage dodged amaterasu. The third Raikage is at least just as fast as the forth, probably faster. Naruto in SM dodged the third raikage, who is probably faster than the forth raikage, who dodged amaterasu.

      What does that tell us?

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    • You're so illiterate and so stupidity prone . Third Raikage was stated as a speedless little low level ninja . You're so stupid to claim he is faster than A . A never dodged Amaterasu . He dodged by seeing the blood in Sasuke's eyes as he knew Amaterasu before that . Your little retarded SM mode dickriding and hot tasty cum swallowing is so ridiculous and uncalled for. That little low level low bottom tier 3rd raikage was known for durability and not speed according to Cloud elder ninja . Sasuke was the one who compared it to Kirin , and the data book confirm its light speed , you're so uneducated and illiterate I cant even understand what kind of bullshit you watch daily. To say such mediocre trash garbage dump fart Diarrhea tier comments.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: You're so illiterate and so stupidity prone . Third Raikage was stated as a speedless little low level ninja . You're so stupid to claim he is faster than A . A never dodged Amaterasu . He dodged by seeing the blood in Sasuke's eyes as he knew Amaterasu before that . Your little retarded SM mode dickriding and hot tasty cum swallowing is so ridiculous and uncalled for. That little low level low bottom tier 3rd raikage was known for durability and not speed according to Cloud elder ninja . Sasuke was the one who compared it to Kirin , and the data book confirm its light speed , you're so uneducated and illiterate I cant even understand what kind of bullshit you watch daily. To say such mediocre trash garbage dump fart Diarrhea tier comments.

      How grossly immature and pathetic do you have to be, for your posts to degenerate into petty, idiotic, childish insults and rants just because you soundly lost a debate sad smh.

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    • isn't it time to close this pointless debate. It going nowhere.

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    • Guys, you have to remember intelligence and fighting style matters, along with how fights progress. But before that, there are some huge misconceptions I see here. Being a sensor type doesn't save you from genjutsu. Naruto has shown on multiple occasions that he cannot deal with Itachi's genjutsu without help. Itachi is the better genius of the two, and his combat aggression and IQ is such that each of his attacks serve as powerful feints that setup his subsequent attacks. Itachi is superior in misdirection and deception, and being a sensor doesn't help naruto undo the effects of genjutsu. His only option for doing that is Kurama. But as I said, Itachi is smart enough to chain attacks and take advantage of openings. Even if Kurama breaks naruto out of the first genjutsu in time to save him from a lethal totuska blade stab, itachi immediately chains another genjutsu to keep naruto on the defensive. You are never late once in combat. IT'ss only matter of time before Itachi tricks naruto into a tsyukyomi or a totsuka blade hit. Itachi's fighting style is control and aggro as we have seen on many occasions. Plus, from the sasuke vs killer bee fight, we have proof that jinchurki can't be freed from genjutsu instantly, they are vulnerable for a few seconds (sasuke simply failed to take advantage of this opening). Naruto's shadow clone diversions, rasenshuriken, and stamina benefits won't mean anything if he is ensnared perpetually in genjutsu meanwhile itachi has the yata mirror up for defense while the totuska blade is pressuring naruto offensively. Remember guys, its not just about brawns and what characters can do on paper, its how that specific character can manipulate their arsenal, and that's where differences in intelligence and combat experience/wisdom matter. If we take itachi's genjutsu off the table, then this would be a very different fight. But since naruto doesn't have enough experience against genjutsu, especially against amaster like itachi who already shut down naruto twice with his genjutsu, I don't see naruto winning. And its not like Itachi is also only good at genjutsu either, he has shown skillful ninjutsu tactics such as in his fight with kakashi in part one. Naruto is smart too but he isn't on itachi's plane of existence in that department.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Guys, you have to remember intelligence and fighting style matters, along with how fights progress. But before that, there are some huge misconceptions I see here. Being a sensor type doesn't save you from genjutsu. Naruto has shown on multiple occasions that he cannot deal with Itachi's genjutsu without help. Itachi is the better genius of the two, and his combat aggression and IQ is such that each of his attacks serve as powerful feints that setup his subsequent attacks. Itachi is superior in misdirection and deception, and being a sensor doesn't help naruto undo the effects of genjutsu. His only option for doing that is Kurama. But as I said, Itachi is smart enough to chain attacks and take advantage of openings. Even if Kurama breaks naruto out of the first genjutsu in time to save him from a lethal totuska blade stab, itachi immediately chains another genjutsu to keep naruto on the defensive. You are never late once in combat. IT'ss only matter of time before Itachi tricks naruto into a tsyukyomi or a totsuka blade hit. Itachi's fighting style is control and aggro as we have seen on many occasions. Plus, from the sasuke vs killer bee fight, we have proof that jinchurki can't be freed from genjutsu instantly, they are vulnerable for a few seconds (sasuke simply failed to take advantage of this opening). Naruto's shadow clone diversions, rasenshuriken, and stamina benefits won't mean anything if he is ensnared perpetually in genjutsu meanwhile itachi has the yata mirror up for defense while the totuska blade is pressuring naruto offensively. Remember guys, its not just about brawns and what characters can do on paper, its how that specific character can manipulate their arsenal, and that's where differences in intelligence and combat experience/wisdom matter. If we take itachi's genjutsu off the table, then this would be a very different fight. But since naruto doesn't have enough experience against genjutsu, especially against amaster like itachi who already shut down naruto twice with his genjutsu, I don't see naruto winning. And its not like Itachi is also only good at genjutsu either, he has shown skillful ninjutsu tactics such as in his fight with kakashi in part one. Naruto is smart too but he isn't on itachi's plane of existence in that department.

      All that you said would be true if we were talking about a teenage naruto but you seem to neglect a major factor which is that this is adult Hokage Naruto who has way may battle experience that itachi does since naruto is in his late twenties early thirties. naruto knows everything about itachi, itachi doesn’t know everything about naruto in this instance and knowledge is power, he has studied war/battle strategies since becoming hokage you can also see how his reckless approach to fighting has drastically changed he is more calculated and calm. He is way more proficient in all his techs and has probably learnt an arsenal of new ones, he has 100% kuruma and finally there is no way itachi can match naruto in speed itachi is would probably be dead before he knew the fight began.

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    • Dude,there is no genjutsu that will work on naruto besides Tsukuyomi.And itachi has to look at his eyes,which he wont be able to because naruto is god knows how much faster than him.

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      CombatIQmatters wrote: Guys, you have to remember intelligence and fighting style matters, along with how fights progress. But before that, there are some huge misconceptions I see here. Being a sensor type doesn't save you from genjutsu. Naruto has shown on multiple occasions that he cannot deal with Itachi's genjutsu without help. Itachi is the better genius of the two, and his combat aggression and IQ is such that each of his attacks serve as powerful feints that setup his subsequent attacks. Itachi is superior in misdirection and deception, and being a sensor doesn't help naruto undo the effects of genjutsu. His only option for doing that is Kurama. But as I said, Itachi is smart enough to chain attacks and take advantage of openings. Even if Kurama breaks naruto out of the first genjutsu in time to save him from a lethal totuska blade stab, itachi immediately chains another genjutsu to keep naruto on the defensive. You are never late once in combat. IT'ss only matter of time before Itachi tricks naruto into a tsyukyomi or a totsuka blade hit. Itachi's fighting style is control and aggro as we have seen on many occasions. Plus, from the sasuke vs killer bee fight, we have proof that jinchurki can't be freed from genjutsu instantly, they are vulnerable for a few seconds (sasuke simply failed to take advantage of this opening). Naruto's shadow clone diversions, rasenshuriken, and stamina benefits won't mean anything if he is ensnared perpetually in genjutsu meanwhile itachi has the yata mirror up for defense while the totuska blade is pressuring naruto offensively. Remember guys, its not just about brawns and what characters can do on paper, its how that specific character can manipulate their arsenal, and that's where differences in intelligence and combat experience/wisdom matter. If we take itachi's genjutsu off the table, then this would be a very different fight. But since naruto doesn't have enough experience against genjutsu, especially against amaster like itachi who already shut down naruto twice with his genjutsu, I don't see naruto winning. And its not like Itachi is also only good at genjutsu either, he has shown skillful ninjutsu tactics such as in his fight with kakashi in part one. Naruto is smart too but he isn't on itachi's plane of existence in that department.

      All that you said would be true if we were talking about a teenage naruto but you seem to neglect a major factor which is that this is adult Hokage Naruto who has way may battle experience that itachi does since naruto is in his late twenties early thirties. naruto knows everything about itachi, itachi doesn’t know everything about naruto in this instance and knowledge is power, he has studied war/battle strategies since becoming hokage you can also see how his reckless approach to fighting has drastically changed he is more calculated and calm. He is way more proficient in all his techs and has probably learnt an arsenal of new ones, he has 100% kuruma and finally there is no way itachi can match naruto in speed itachi is would probably be dead before he knew the fight began.

      As I said in my post, I acknowledge naruto's intelligence. I am one of the people who always knew naruto was smart from the beginning: he mastered shadow clones by teaching himself after stealing the ninja scroll, he saved kakashi from the water prison and nearly killed zabuza with a KUNAI, he outsmarted neji multiple times despite neji having near 360 vision, he defeated kakazu, he defeated the pains with strategy and smoke bombs, etc. I know naruto is smart and he gained experience since his teenage years, except for the fact none of that experience was against GENJUTSU. Name a genjutsu master naruto has effiecently learned how to beat in his adult years. And Like I said, even when he relies on kurama, the match isn't over. ITachi is smart enough to use genjutsu as a distraction. And Naruto isn't so much faster than itachi that Itachi can't cast a single jutsu to interrupt naruto's rythmn. Substitution is a thing, and genjutsu takes all but a single handsign to cast, and mind you sharingan kakashi and sasuke couldn't see itachi's handseals at all when itachi was fighting serious. Again Itachi's isnt stupid. He won't cast tysukyomi until he can trick naruto into looking into his eyes, and even if naruto manages to dodge that bullet, he has the totsuka blade waiting to take advantage of the fact he is afraid to look at itachi directly on the off chance their gazes accidentally meet. Itachi is a genius prodigy of his time as evidenced by the manga. Naruto's experience doesn't close that gap unless you show me some feats of him breaking high level genjutsu so fast that it doesn't leave him open.

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    • @CombatlQmatters, Shadow Clones are such an easy counter to Genjutsu. Itachi can't spam anything, and since Genjutsu is useless on a clone he probably won't use it when Naruto has clones out and he can't tell which is which.

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    • @AsianReaper but he wont need shadow clones.Naruto as a kid nearly broke through itachi`s genjutsus and now he has kurama to break him free and on top of that,he is adult now.Itachi wont be able to react to his speed to seal him or put him in tsukuyomi.

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    • Ninjachris wrote:

      How grossly immature and pathetic do you have to be, for your posts to degenerate into petty, idiotic, childish insults and rants just because you soundly lost a debate sad smh.

      How pathetic do you've to be to not admit you've lost a debate soundly . Always underestimating itachi and blaming people when they point it out? dont act pure and stop dickriding naruto's worm dick .

      Look at the scan of itachi speedouting before KCM naruto could touch the ground . Itachi is faster than KCM naruto and bee's reaction speed let alone footspeed feat smh . Stop spouting garbage shit . Stop dickriding and acting immature and childish like stupid little kids .


      Look at that scan clearly it was like time froze when itachi was back beside nagato while kcm naruto's hand was still in the air even though he threw a punch before itachi was speeding out . Go look at that scan . Which means itachi is already far faster than spsm and adult naruto . Someone who barely dodged a lightspeed attack , a narrow little wave .

      Bee has a reaction speed above light as minato has a reaction speed equal to light at base . Stop acting like a butt hurt little fan boy tard just because the manga don't bend to your will . Go check the scans I told you . Totsuka and Yata GG no matter how much you say it doesn't . Why? Because kishimoto said so .

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    • ROFLMAO.KCM naruto wasnt even serious with itachi and neither of them showed any speed.Just blocked punches.Itachi faster than light that why didnt he go and seal madara?Oh yea because he is a fucking weakling who cant compare to EDO madara let alone SPSM naruto.GTFO with your itachi ty,

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    • Lol, funny. Let me remind you that Itachi was reanimated at the time and was forced to fight at full potential by Kabuto's control. So he was fighting at full speed. nine-tails chakra mode Naruto was easily matching his speed and movements to the point where he could casually talk to Itachi mid battle.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: @CombatlQmatters, Shadow Clones are such an easy counter to Genjutsu. Itachi can't spam anything, and since Genjutsu is useless on a clone he probably won't use it when Naruto has clones out and he can't tell which is which.

      @AsianReaper That is a situational counter. The reason being that you are forgetting that the biggest plot point of all Itachi's fights is that he is always secretly casting genjutsu from the beginning of the fight. Even sasuke with a trained sharingan didn't notice itachi's genjutsus until after the fact. Deidara failed to notice it until after the fact, Killer Bee didn't notice it until after the fact. Sage mode Kabuto had no clue he was under izanami either until it was too late. ITachi is that skilled when it comes to genjutsu. Also, the two times it was used against Naruto in the anime he fell under itachi's genjutsu from the very beginning. It doesn't matter how many shadow clones naruto makes if he cant't distinguish genjutsu from reality. Proof of this is that he tried to make shadow clones and rasengan a 30 percent Itachi clone at the beginning of Shippuden and ended up hitting trees instead because he was under genjutsu. what good did shadow clones do him then? Also, Itachi's tsukuyomi can actually work against naruto's shadow clones. It is stated that when a skilled shadow clone user poofs his shadow clone, he gets all the mental experience the clone received. That means if itachi tsukuyomi's a clone and then kills it, the horrific mental experience will travel to the real naruto and knock him out. It's also been shown that naruto was unable to resist Itachi's genjutsu even after being aware he was in the genjutsu without external help.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @AsianReaper That is a situational counter. The reason being that you are forgetting that the biggest plot point of all Itachi's fights is that he is always secretly casting genjutsu from the beginning of the fight. Even sasuke with a trained sharingan didn't notice itachi's genjutsus until after the fact.

      I'm not forgetting anything, and Sasuke did notice. He fought back with his own Genjutsu until they both decided to finally do things forreal.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote:

      AsianReaper wrote: @CombatlQmatters, Shadow Clones are such an easy counter to Genjutsu. Itachi can't spam anything, and since Genjutsu is useless on a clone he probably won't use it when Naruto has clones out and he can't tell which is which.

      @AsianReaper That is a situational counter. The reason being that you are forgetting that the biggest plot point of all Itachi's fights is that he is always secretly casting genjutsu from the beginning of the fight. Even sasuke with a trained sharingan didn't notice itachi's genjutsus until after the fact. Deidara failed to notice it until after the fact, Killer Bee didn't notice it until after the fact. Sage mode Kabuto had no clue he was under izanami either until it was too late. ITachi is that skilled when it comes to genjutsu. Also, the two times it was used against Naruto in the anime he fell under itachi's genjutsu from the very beginning. It doesn't matter how many shadow clones naruto makes if he cant't distinguish genjutsu from reality. Proof of this is that he tried to make shadow clones and rasengan a 30 percent Itachi clone at the beginning of Shippuden and ended up hitting trees instead because he was under genjutsu. what good did shadow clones do him then? Also, Itachi's tsukuyomi can actually work against naruto's shadow clones. It is stated that when a skilled shadow clone user poofs his shadow clone, he gets all the mental experience the clone received. That means if itachi tsukuyomi's a clone and then kills it, the horrific mental experience will travel to the real naruto and knock him out. It's also been shown that naruto was unable to resist Itachi's genjutsu even after being aware he was in the genjutsu without external help.

      Are.You.Forgetting.About.Kurama?

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    • AsianReaper wrote:

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @AsianReaper That is a situational counter. The reason being that you are forgetting that the biggest plot point of all Itachi's fights is that he is always secretly casting genjutsu from the beginning of the fight. Even sasuke with a trained sharingan didn't notice itachi's genjutsus until after the fact.

      I'm not forgetting anything, and Sasuke did notice. He fought back with his own Genjutsu until they both decided to finally do things forreal.

      As I very carefully said, Sasuke didn't counter the genjutsus until AFTER the fact. Please refer to my previous comment and you will see that I made that distinction. After he realized he was in the genjutsu, only then did he use genjutsu reversal. But If itachi was serious about killing him, he would have already exploited the fact that Sasuke was slow to realizing he was under genjutsu multiple times during that fight. Again, it took him a quite a few precious seconds to realize he was under genjutsu each time before he countered, and that was with an Itachi who was sitting casually in a chair just talking to sasuke, not trying to kill his precious younger brother. @Kakashi. Please do not take comments to other people that I write out of context. I wrote about how ITachi could deal with kurama breaking naruto free previously. To explain again, he would understand that naruto has a partner and would simply use genjutsu as a distraction. Again Kurama can't break naruto free instaneously, its been shown that Tailed Beast Partner method still takes time to go off and that leaves itachi openings.

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    • 2 seconds is not enough.And i am wondering why is this still a debate?

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    • It is enough. And Since I'm likely to get this rebuttal, I have two instances of direct proof of Itachi's intellectual ability to use genjutsu as a distraction. Versus Orochimaru back when they were in the Akatsuki. Orochimaru tries to steal his body, Itachi counters with a paralysis genjutsu. Orochimaru tries to break out but Itachi had already sliced his arm off. If itachi so wished, he could have chopped orochimaru's head off instead and then seal the remains with totsuka blade just like he ended up doing in the Sasuke fight.

      Exhibit 2 Is Itachi versus Kurenai. Kurenai uses genjutsu on Itachi. ITachi counters her genjutsu and places her in her own genjutsu. Kurenai manages to break out just barely before she ends up getting kicked into the water. If itachi was serious, that kick would have been a totsuka blade. While I acknowledge that oro and Kurenai aren't anywhere on naruto's level, the parallel remains the same because naruto has trouble with itachi's genjutsu. The point is,is that even if you can break out of a genjutsu itachi places on you, he doesn't give you time to defend against his follow up attacks. He always moves quickly to take advantage of openings. Chain link one: Itachi casts genjutsu, naruto casts shadow clones/rasenshuriken as he is immersed in the genjutsu Kurama warns him and they both work to break him free. meanwhile Itachi was already preparing the super fast totuska blade to strike while naruto and kurama were distracted by the genjutsu. Naruto breaks out just in time to see himself getting sealed into a jar for all eternity. Hell, I could even use Sasuke vs Killer Bee. After Sasuke placed Killer Bee in his mangeyko genjutsu, If sasuke used his head, he would strike killer bee with a blow after killer bee fell on the ground. Sasuke just assumed his genjutsu did the trick and forgot that Killer Bee is a jinchurki. That is proof the opening is significant. Killer Bee explicitly said he couldn't move his body either for those good few seconds. Drawing the parallel to naruto, who is facing itachi, the second best non Jubbi genjutsu caster in the series, itachi can take advantage of that opening because he knows that the opening will be avialable. So yeah, why is this still a debate? If naruto was completely immune to genjutsu it would be a different story. In fact, I would give naruto the win in that case.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: ROFLMAO.KCM naruto wasnt even serious with itachi and neither of them showed any speed.Just blocked punches.Itachi faster than light that why didnt he go and seal madara?Oh yea because he is a fucking weakling who cant compare to EDO madara let alone SPSM naruto.GTFO with your itachi ty,

      Yeah because plot nerfed him . Edo madara was a weakling so he wasnt even a concern for lord itachi . Stop dickriding madara's hot dick and think for yourself . Stfu with your moronic logic .

      KCM naruto was not fighting seriously even though edo bodies can t be hurt? What stupidity . I'll lose brain cells arguing with butthurt naruto dickriding idiots . I rest my case , no need to argue with idiots who think Naruto never goes serious and Itachi always goes serious but all too well ignore the databook statement and take for granted everything against itachi .

      Tell you what , stop riding madara's dick and fact is , Itachi was going easy on Kabuto , because he shouldnt kill him and he wasnt even trying to hurt him as he said " Sasuke dont hurt him " so many times in the match.

      Itachi was holding back against naruto and bee did you know that? And stop acting like your IQ is the level of a braindead cow worm and start reading the fucking manga and stop acting like a biased dickriding worm.

      Go see the scans I told you , since if I could post them here , naruto fanboys would eat thier comments .

      Even Gai was scared of itachi and ran away so he has faster than eight gate speed .

      Tsukuyomi kills naruto by manipulating space time matter .

      Totsuka blade pierces narutos brain and kills him .

      Yata mirror reflects naruto's bijuu shit urine dama buttock rasen shit urine worm-gan back at him and kills him . Case closed .


      Itachi wins .

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    • LOL.You are so delusional its not even possible.When itachi faces tough opponents its plot that nerfed him.XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

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    • Yeah no , but KCM naruto was nerfed? HahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA shitty weakling like madara is of no concern for itachi OMOOOO , you're fucking delusional HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA .

      ITachi was not even trying to kill kabuto . Not even that , He blindsided the shared vision of nagato which not even bee could blindside . And also the fact that nagato didnt notice his summons were blindsided until itachi sliced his arm . Meaning Itachi is indeed faster than Naruto and bee can outrun nagato.


      Hahahahaha . The nagato who caugh naruto with his superior strike speed despite naruto having danger sensing got arm slapped by Itachi withoit him even knowing his summons were blinded . Wow . You're delusional .

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    • I know he is well aware of Itachi Genjutsu abilities, however, he was still caught in it after that by Itachi twice. Kabuto is well aware of it and he still got caught by a Genjutsu ability from Itachi. Even Kakashi is well aware of Itachi Genjutsu ability and he too still got caught in it. The only one that never got caught in it is Might Guy.Itachi could seal him with Totsuka Blade, that, and Genjutsu are the ways so I could see Itachi pulling off a win here.

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    • lmao,that was teen naruto who was taught by jiraya.And kakashi only got caught by tsukuyomi.I never fucking said KCM naruto was nerfed.Oh and btw that was controlled kabuto and he was blinded by smoke.Oh and he was immobile.THEN EXPLAIN TO ME WHY DIDNT ITACHI GO FOR MADARA WHO EASILY DESTROYED ENTIRE ALLIANCE IF HE IS A GOD.Delusional fanboy.

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