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  • Tsukiyomi is a the 3rd most powerful genjutsu in the naruto universe. Can the Rinnegaan block it with eyes open.

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    • No. The Rinnegan doesn't grant immunity to genjutsu.

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    • does that mean Itachi can defeat nagato

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    • Ahya07 wrote: does that mean Itachi can defeat nagato

      Didn't he already, as an Edo Tensei?

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    • With the help of a perfect jinchuuriki and an almost perfect jinchuuriki, yes. Don't even go there, please.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: With the help of a perfect jinchuuriki and an almost perfect jinchuuriki, yes. Don't even go there, please.

      wasn't that mutual? Afterall they were acting like a battery to nagato too.
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    • can he do it alone?

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: wasn't that mutual? Afterall they were acting like a battery to nagato too.

      Pretty much, yea. Nagato got a ton of power from Gyuki, and became notably faster and stronger.

      Ahya07 wrote: can he do it alone?

      Presumably, though it would be a close fight. The databook puts Jiraiya and Itachi as equals (exact same final score, down to the half-point), and it was noted by Nagato that if Jiraiya had known his secret he'd have lost. It depends on how fast Itachi would figure out the Paths, since Jiraiya wasted a lot of his power and time on fruitless efforts which led to his defeat.

      Keep in mind that we don't know much about Tsukuyome's weaknesses. We know a basic sharingan is enough to break it, provided the user has the skill. So evidently skill weighs more heavily in this regard than power. The Rinnegan seems to grant some degree of insight into jutsu as well, although it's not clear how and to what extent. But it's fairly safe to say it grants enough that Nagato could conceivably break it.

      ALso keep in mind that it was Itachi who said genjutsu doesn't work on people with the same eyes. This isn't that people are literally immune, but as Obito V Kakashi showed, the other can simply decode and deny the genjutsu fast enough that it doesn't matter. It's not that you don't get caught, it's that you don't stay caught.

      So no, Nagato wouldn't shrug off Tsukuyome like nobody's business, though it's feasible that he can rapidly break it down and stay largely unaffected.

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    • Sasuke did it with Tomoe rinnegan+PS.I dont think rinnegan can do it alone.

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    • Nagato was able to predict Amaterasu, he was hinting that Itachi was building up chakra in his eyes. The same should apply to Tsukuyomi, so Nagato should be able to act accordingly to it and that would explain why Itachi didn't use it against Nagato. Not to forget do I doubt that Itachi would have been able to destroy the gravity ball/center. I doubt that Itachi can do much against Nagato.

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    • Ace Chouno wrote: Nagato was able to predict Amaterasu, he was hinting that Itachi was building up chakra in his eyes. The same should apply to Tsukuyomi, so Nagato should be able to act accordingly to it and that would explain why Itachi didn't use it against Nagato. Not to forget do I doubt that Itachi would have been able to destroy the gravity ball/center. I doubt that Itachi can do much against Nagato.

      Bro its not about predicting. The thread is about if Rinnegan breaking or blocking Tsukuyomi. Most Dojutsu's would forsee the chakra build up in his eye.
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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Sasuke did it with Tomoe rinnegan+PS.I dont think rinnegan can do it alone.

      Tsukuyome, not IT

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    • @NamikazeNaruto> I was just responding to this.

      Ahya07 wrote: does that mean Itachi can defeat nagato

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Most Dojutsu's would forsee the chakra build up in his eye.

      Not really. We've only seen it with Nagato and Kaguya, really. While in theory any dojutsu can detect so, it seems that actually noticing the buildup of chakra in the eye takes considerable skill.

      Ace Chouno wrote: The same should apply to Tsukuyomi, so Nagato should be able to act accordingly to it and that would explain why Itachi didn't use it against Nagato.

      Seems reasonable, yea. The best defense is to not get hit in the first place, so if Nagato sees it coming (Literally) then he can either avert is eyes or otherwise defend (buildup of chakra, maybe use Preta?)

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    • Well with Most Dojutsus is he kinda right. The Byakugan should be able to detect it without much effort

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    • Ace Chouno wrote: Well with Most Dojutsus is he kinda right. The Byakugan should be able to detect it without much effort

      My point is that it takes skill. Kakashi didn't seem to notice Itachi's Tsukuyome, Sasuke didn't notice Itachi's Amaterasu. It was only people with extremely high skill levels, like Nagato and Kaguya, who detected the chakra buildup.

      So evidently, it's not a basic power at all, but rather an ability that comes with skill.

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    • Wasn't Nagato kind of a sensor with or without the rinnegan? So sensing chakra build is not strange at all for a sensor. That being said, i believe that when Nagato "sensed" from where he was being controlled by the reanimation jutsu, he was able to because of his rinnegan. I'm not sure that's correct though.

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    • @killman actually itachi allowed sasuke to break out of Tsukiyomi. He couldn't kill him inside the genjutsu because itachi wanted to remove the curse mark from sasuke. This proves that normal sharingaan cannot break out of tsukiyomi.

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    • Ahya07 wrote: @killman actually itachi allowed sasuke to break out of Tsukiyomi. He couldn't kill him inside the genjutsu because itachi wanted to remove the curse mark from sasuke. This proves that normal sharingaan cannot break out of tsukiyomi.

      No. Itachi outright stated that only a true Sharingan user can break it, IE an Uchiha (or even more specifically, Sasuke). It wasn't watered down.

      Besides, the Sharingan can analyze jutsu even retroactively, and decode how they work. Against Itachi it is, if i counted correctly, the 3rd time he gets hit. He had plenty of time to analyze how it works.

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      Wasn't Nagato kind of a sensor with or without the rinnegan? So sensing chakra build is not strange at all for a sensor.

      I think so, yea. He also sensed where Kabuto was based on his Edo Tensei connection.

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    • Considering Sasuke managed to break out of one with a regular Sharingan it would seem a little stupid to say that someone who possesses one of the highest calibres of visual prowess would not also be able to defend against it.

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    • I disagree. Rinnegan is NOT equal to sharingan. The sharingan is known for it's genjutsu and genjutsu resistance. The rinngean has no genjutsu feats. It doesn't matter if the rinnegan is the superior eye. It just doesn't have influence over genjutsu.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: I disagree. Rinnegan is NOT equal to sharingan. The sharingan is known for it's genjutsu and genjutsu resistance. The rinngean has no genjutsu feats. It doesn't matter if the rinnegan is the superior eye. It just doesn't have influence over genjutsu.

      Sure it doesn't *cough* Sasuke putting all 9 tailed beasts in genjutsu. *cough*

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    • Yes, but that's because Sasuke's rinnegan is unique. He is allowed to retain his original sharingan/mangekyo sharingan abilities in his rinnegan. Including his genjutsu abilities. He is also able to shoot amaterasu from his rinnegan, but that doesn't mean that all rinnegan users can use amaterasu.

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    • Yeah but I'm pretty sure Madara using his Susanoo with a Rinnegan means he can also use his MS abilities with his Rinnegan and there's no way to Sunday anyone here is going to convince me Rinnegan Madara would get punked by a Tsukiyomi. Maybe Nagato could get punked by it but that's about it.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Yeah but I'm pretty sure Madara using his Susanoo with a Rinnegan means he can also use his MS abilities with his Rinnegan

      He can't. We've seen that MS powers are a huge part of one's fight style, yet Madara hasn't used his once. Susanoo doesn't come from the eyes (even though it's initially cast from it). Tobirama explained that the Sharingan's source of power is the brain, and it seems that Madara proved that Susanoo too comes from the brain.

      Starscream1998 wrote: there's no way to Sunday anyone here is going to convince me Rinnegan Madara would get punked by a Tsukiyomi.

      While i'm fairly certain he would get caught in it, my argument was that most powerful people wouldn't stay caught. Sasuke broke out of it pretty fast, and he had a base Sharingan. Kakashi v Obito suggests that with equal eyes, the genjutsu manifests but the victim isn't bound by it. With the Rinnegan, i think Madara would at worst be briefly held by it and at best you wouldn't notice he got hit at all.

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    • Ok yeah the point about the Susanoo is true I'll give you that. Actually, would the Tsukiyomi work on a blind guy or not hypothetically?

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    • No, tsukuyomi requires eye contact. That's why SM users or high sensing ninjas, (or ninja's who focus on the body movements without looking at opponent's face such as Guy) can can fight sharingan users with their eyes shut.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Ok yeah the point about the Susanoo is true I'll give you that. Actually, would the Tsukiyomi work on a blind guy or not hypothetically?

      In theory, the main aspect of Tsukuyome is that someone is drawn into a genjutsu world where the caster is God. The visual aspect of it is just a means to deliver. Judging by DMS Kakashi, for instance, you could theoretically have Tsukuyome Shuriken that draw people into Tsukuyome on contact.

      In practice though, it seems to me that the means is an integral part of a jutsu. If Tsukuyome were applied by touch or hearing, it wouldn't really be Tsukuyome but rather a different jutsu.

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    • Makes sense, I mean after the defeat Kabuto juts-I mean Izanami the Sharingan seems to have gone beyond being visually based.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Makes sense, I mean after the defeat Kabuto juts-I mean Izanami the Sharingan seems to have gone beyond being visually based.

      Amaterasu already could be cast on a delivery method. E.g. a Susanoo arrow. Being an eye power, it's obvious that the main delivery would be visual. But it's not necessarily the only way it could be delivered.

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    • Actually, unless you have Sasuke's blaze release, there is no other way to cast amaterasu except directly from your eye.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Actually, unless you have Sasuke's blaze release, there is no other way to cast amaterasu except directly from your eye.

      You could still cast it on something else first. The flames will keep burning, and you could ignite other things simply by spreading it around.

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    • Or the simplest explanation is Kishi kind of maybe sort of stopped caring about the Sharingans limits as we neared the end of the manga.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: wasn't that mutual? Afterall they were acting like a battery to nagato too.

      Pretty much, yea. Nagato got a ton of power from Gyuki, and became notably faster and stronger.

      Ahya07 wrote: can he do it alone?

      Presumably, though it would be a close fight. The databook puts Jiraiya and Itachi as equals (exact same final score, down to the half-point), and it was noted by Nagato that if Jiraiya had known his secret he'd have lost. It depends on how fast Itachi would figure out the Paths, since Jiraiya wasted a lot of his power and time on fruitless efforts which led to his defeat.

      Keep in mind that we don't know much about Tsukuyome's weaknesses. We know a basic sharingan is enough to break it, provided the user has the skill. So evidently skill weighs more heavily in this regard than power. The Rinnegan seems to grant some degree of insight into jutsu as well, although it's not clear how and to what extent. But it's fairly safe to say it grants enough that Nagato could conceivably break it.

      ALso keep in mind that it was Itachi who said genjutsu doesn't work on people with the same eyes. This isn't that people are literally immune, but as Obito V Kakashi showed, the other can simply decode and deny the genjutsu fast enough that it doesn't matter. It's not that you don't get caught, it's that you don't stay caught.

      So no, Nagato wouldn't shrug off Tsukuyome like nobody's business, though it's feasible that he can rapidly break it down and stay largely unaffected.

      Basic Sharingan didnt break it . Itachi let him out . Tobi clarified it , not only that , Itachi fell dowm and said " Sasuke you broke out of my Tsukuyomi ' then zetsu seeing that , gave his analysis of how tsukuyomi was broken . Itachi was putting a facade , so no reason to believe he broke it .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Basic Sharingan didnt break it .

      It did. Itachi already said that only a Sharingan user can break it, and the databook backs up that Sasuke should be able to break it.

      Sasuke was hit by Tsukuyome several times at this point, if Itachi used anything less than the real deal Sasuke would know instantly.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Itachi was putting a facade , so no reason to believe he broke it .

      Except we got told explicitly that Sasuke can break it. No reason to believe Itachi went soft on him. Sasuke would know instantly if he did.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Basic Sharingan didnt break it .

      It did. Itachi already said that only a Sharingan user can break it, and the databook backs up that Sasuke should be able to break it.

      Sasuke was hit by Tsukuyome several times at this point, if Itachi used anything less than the real deal Sasuke would know instantly.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Itachi was putting a facade , so no reason to believe he broke it .

      Except we got told explicitly that Sasuke can break it. No reason to believe Itachi went soft on him. Sasuke would know instantly if he did.

      Where were you told? Tobi said he was putting a facade and was fooling sasuke throughout the fight . His only purpose was to take away the curse seal and bequeath the MS to him . Zetsu even said he was acting strangely and wasnt moving like his normal self . In part 1 , itachi didnt say one sharingan and KKG can defeat Tsukiyomi , he said it can "defeat him". Not the Technique . Clearly he was lying since tobi clarified he was loyal to konoha so everything he said there was a lie like he said jiraiya can beat the entire Akatsuki to kisame . Kisame retconned that and said itachi could handle jiraiya alone . So yeah it was a lie . Even the DB puts a ? in the sasuke defeated MS column . DB itself is confused . Not to mention itachi was proven liar so his words cannot be believed . So there is no clear statement he broke it , since the mechanism itself is complete control over time , space and Matter . Infinitely . How will someone break from such a technique ?

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    • Senjutsu+guy who mastered sharingan and expirenced tsukuyomi.Does not seem immposible.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Senjutsu+guy who mastered sharingan and expirenced tsukuyomi.Does not seem immposible.

      Are You Saying senjutsu + Mastering Sharingan can break it? First of all , the notion of breaking it is itself false , how will you break out of something where the castor can extend time infinitely? Not to mention Shukaku and Ao said Itachis genjutsu cannot be sensed by even Someone as skilled as Ao and his team . So how will the victim even know he/she is in a genjutsu . This is also his normal genjutsu , as Ao didnt specifically say Tsukuyomi . Kakashi too didnt know about Tsukiyomi , still shat his pants at the sight of itachi's sharingan , meaning his 3t genjutsu is that potent .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Are You Saying senjutsu + Mastering Sharingan can break it? First of all , the notion of breaking it is itself false , how will you break out of something where the castor can extend time infinitely?

      No, a Sharingan is enough. Itachi says so, the databook says so.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Zetsu even said he was acting strangely and wasnt moving like his normal self

      Yea, because he was sick and dying.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Not to mention Shukaku and Ao said Itachis genjutsu cannot be sensed by even Someone as skilled as Ao and his team . So how will the victim even know he/she is in a genjutsu .

      Kakashi knew he was in Tsukuyome. Sasuke did too.

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    • AO is a stupid example.He has 1 byakugan and he is not as good as hyugas.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Are You Saying senjutsu + Mastering Sharingan can break it? First of all , the notion of breaking it is itself false , how will you break out of something where the castor can extend time infinitely?

      No, a Sharingan is enough. Itachi says so, the databook says so.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Zetsu even said he was acting strangely and wasnt moving like his normal self

      Yea, because he was sick and dying.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Not to mention Shukaku and Ao said Itachis genjutsu cannot be sensed by even Someone as skilled as Ao and his team . So how will the victim even know he/she is in a genjutsu .

      Kakashi knew he was in Tsukuyome. Sasuke did too.

      What are you talking about though? Itachi said to kakashi how it works inside the genjutsu. Kakashi didnt know it. Why should itachi use mind control genjutsu let alone something as lethal as tsukuyomi if he was just fighting for accomplishing nothing? No. He didnt use. Theres no reason a guy who was fighting with fakery should use lethal techniques. Itachis words are lies. Jiraiya>>> Akatsuki when he could barely handle three paths with his full power. Tobi even said itachi came to the village to fool akatsuki of capturing naruto and warn Danzo of his existence. Read the context. Itachi never said sharingan can beat tsukuyomi , he said beat him, which is proven false by his jiraiya hype statement. Databook puts a question mark. Databook doesnt do that if its sure of the answer.

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    • Hey guys, went away from this thread for a while and came back to...whatever this is. Somebody please explain?

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Hey guys, went away from this thread for a while and came back to...whatever this is. Somebody please explain?

      I think the thread has ran it's course, since the original question was long answered.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Why should itachi use mind control genjutsu let alone something as lethal as tsukuyomi if he was just fighting for accomplishing nothing?

      Tsukuyome is not lethal. Nobody has ever died to it.

      Starscream1998 wrote: Read the context. Itachi never said sharingan can beat tsukuyomi , he said beat him, which is proven false by his jiraiya hype statement. Databook puts a question mark. Databook doesnt do that if its sure of the answer.

      Itachi was quite clearly talking about Tsukuyome. Sasuke overcame Tsukuyome. I don't see any evidence for what you claim, i just see an attempt to hype up Itachi.

      Itachi never worked against Akatsuki. He didn't oppose it. He captured Jinchuriki even when akatsuki was close to winning. He made no effort to defeat Pain or Obito. Obito lied about tons of things, from Madara's origins, his name, Itachi's real motives, Izanagi, the plan. I don't see why we should trust what he says about Itachi.

      Itachi came to Konoha to capture Naruto. This wasn't fakery or obstruction (he had absolutely no reason to believe Naruto could handle a beast nor any reason to believe he would come to stop the Plan). While Itachi and Kisame could 2v1 Jiraiya, there was still a real risk of a Naruto rampage in which case they'd be fucked.

      Kakashi was a real danger to Itachi (who was even shocked that Kakashi knew about the MS' weakness), hence he used Tsukuyome to take him out.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Hey guys, went away from this thread for a while and came back to...whatever this is. Somebody please explain?

      I think the thread has ran it's course, since the original question was long answered.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Why should itachi use mind control genjutsu let alone something as lethal as tsukuyomi if he was just fighting for accomplishing nothing?

      Tsukuyome is not lethal. Nobody has ever died to it.

      Starscream1998 wrote: Read the context. Itachi never said sharingan can beat tsukuyomi , he said beat him, which is proven false by his jiraiya hype statement. Databook puts a question mark. Databook doesnt do that if its sure of the answer.

      Itachi was quite clearly talking about Tsukuyome. Sasuke overcame Tsukuyome. I don't see any evidence for what you claim, i just see an attempt to hype up Itachi.

      Itachi never worked against Akatsuki. He didn't oppose it. He captured Jinchuriki even when akatsuki was close to winning. He made no effort to defeat Pain or Obito. Obito lied about tons of things, from Madara's origins, his name, Itachi's real motives, Izanagi, the plan. I don't see why we should trust what he says about Itachi.

      Itachi came to Konoha to capture Naruto. This wasn't fakery or obstruction (he had absolutely no reason to believe Naruto could handle a beast nor any reason to believe he would come to stop the Plan). While Itachi and Kisame could 2v1 Jiraiya, there was still a real risk of a Naruto rampage in which case they'd be fucked.

      Kakashi was a real danger to Itachi (who was even shocked that Kakashi knew about the MS' weakness), hence he used Tsukuyome to take him out.

      Theres no need for me to hype him since the manga already claims itachi can control the entire SA with genjutsu and this coming from two experienced shinobis. So dont mistake me for that. What tobi said there is the truth. Otherwise it wouldve been debunked by some other character. Lmao dont be misinformed when you are hating on someone lol , kakashi himself said itachi couldve easily killed him. Lol go read the viz translation. Theres nothing to hype , if anything itachi is already invincible according to the director. If you dont want to believe tobi , then give me another statement from any other reliable character of what really happened there. Tobi said itachi was acting the whole time. So no reason for him to use tsukuyomi which is classified as ninjutsu in databook and not genjutsu , on sasuke. Hence why tsukuyomi cannot be broken by anything. Itachis words were lies, tobi explained that , he said itachi came to warn danzo and fool akatsuki of capturing naruto. Dont act stupid , if itachi wanted why didnt he burn jiraiya with amaterasu? Why didnt kisame use waterdome? And V2 samehada? Do you have an explanation? Naruto survived that day because he said jiraiya is greater than akatsuki. Tobi stated the truth otherwise it wouldve been debunked by some other character . Databook puts question mark , if the answer is sure , it wouldve been stated confidently . Kakashi knew the weakness of tsukuyomi? What the hell. Stop acting stupid . Kakashi was zero threat to itachi stop underating itachi , kakashi couldnt even keep up with his speed then how is he a threat? Kakashi didnt know the existence of tsukuyomi , itachi explained it to him in the genjutsu so kakashi was scared of his 3T genjutsu , if kakashi knew why did itachi explain?

      So flawed logic there . Tobi said he was acting in the fight and never even thought of hurting sasuke , Sasuke thought he got beaten and eye plucked for real but Db says that was also in a genjutsu , not a real fight . So why should he go seriously?

      Oh yeah since you like taking logic too far , let me mess up your flawed logic a little more. Itachi couldve used amaterasu on narutos eyes and burned it then cancelled it like sasuke did to bee . So either bring a statement from a more reliable character or accept what tobi said , since itachis words are lies . Databook also never said he broke tsukuyomi but defeated the MS which is rather vague statement and that too the Db is doubtful and BZ didnt even know about itachis true motives so he thought Sasuke beat it since in his mind itachi had no reason to not put sasuke in tsukuyomi seriously . Again you are acting like if someone tells ftg can be beaten by sitting on the ground , its a fact ! Do you ever wonder the mechanics of a jutsu? Tsukuyomi completely controls time , matter , and space so no breaking . Oh Wow ! How protective you are against hyping of itachi when its just fact Lol . The mechanics are greater than a liar's words . Even tobi stated in his mind , that itachi can full control time in the tsukuyomi realm during sasukes vs danzo fight. Kabuto was also afraid of tsukuyomi , Kabuto has mind eye of kagura which the Db says has more penetrative perception than all dojutsu yet he thought he was a goner . Please use manga facts to disaprove claims not your self made wishes .

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    • Thekillman wrote: I think the thread has ran it's course, since the original question was long answered.

      Oh, that's actually a relief to hear. So I take it Natrix is just being...Natrix?

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Thekillman wrote: I think the thread has ran it's course, since the original question was long answered.

      Oh, that's actually a relief to hear. So I take it Natrix is just being...Natrix?

      Instead of making snide remarks , post facts .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Instead of making snide remarks , post facts .

      What, can't do it yourself Mr 'I actually think Itachi could beat Madara and still expect anyone here to take me seriously' Senpai kun?

      Come on dude, you were the guy who actually said Itachi was Kabuto's trump card...even though he clearly specifies it's Madara he's referring to. But you're right who am I to question your infallible knowledge I mean we all know that if Itachi was resurrected during the war he would've beaten Madara *cough* accurate.

      Oh and by the way about that Yata Mirror https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSoSYa2Qgy0

      Go to 2:43

      Edit: In case you struggle with watching a video let me sum it up; the 3rd Databook shows how the Mirror is composed of all nature transformations and does actually have a ninjutsu explanation so despite your continuous use of the word 'spiritual' Itachi doesn't win because Yata Mirror.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Instead of making snide remarks , post facts .

      What, can't do it yourself Mr 'I actually think Itachi could beat Madara and still expect anyone here to take me seriously' Senpai kun?

      Come on dude, you were the guy who actually said Itachi was Kabuto's trump card...even though he clearly specifies it's Madara he's referring to. But you're right who am I to question your infallible knowledge I mean we all know that if Itachi was resurrected during the war he would've beaten Madara *cough* accurate.

      Oh and by the way about that Yata Mirror https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSoSYa2Qgy0

      Go to 2:43

      Yeah boy , and your stupid senpai logic is the reason that stupid youtube video is not canon.....smh. the snakes by the way didnt bypass the mirror in manga so your preference for buffed characters, keep it to yourself . Itachi was stated to be the trump card , kabuto retconned his word since he didnt know itachi's true power . So your sarcasm shove it down your brain cell . Yeah shame . You cant debate logically or speak facts , just because trash logic you like the most . Madara > Itachi , why? Just because . Yata mirror is unidirectional . Why? Because my braindead brain cant process logic and facts . Right , senpai kun?

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    • XD Wow you sure got me there, what a compelling argument you have sir. How stupid of me to use info referencing an actual credible source in the form of the databook (you were meant to pay attention to the source of the info not the youtuber) and not your incredible argument. Also are you seriously trying to say because Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique couldn't bypass the mirror that suddenly makes it invincible to foes way stronger than that jutsu...wow that's some hard Itachi fanboyism there.

      Give me confirmation of this retcon, give me actual evidence/proof that Kishimoto retconned this particular part of the story via a link and I'll admit I was wrong in my next comment.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: XD Wow you sure got me there, what a compelling argument you have sir. How stupid of me to use info referencing an actual credible source in the form of the databook (you were meant to pay attention to the source of the info not the youtuber) and not your incredible argument. Also are you seriously trying to say because Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique couldn't bypass the mirror that suddenly makes it invincible to foes way stronger than that jutsu...wow that's some hard Itachi fanboyism there.

      Give me confirmation of this retcon, give me actual evidence/proof that Kishimoto retconned this particular part of the story via a link and I'll admit I was wrong in my next comment.

      Proof of what retcon? Itachi lying? Use your brain for once , why should it be absolutely perfect defense if it has a weak spot? Use your brain for once instead of saying yata mirror anime version is a retcon . Lmfao . You believe the anime is more powerful than manga?

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    • "kabuto retconned his word since he didnt know itachi's true power" - Natrix 2017

      Do you even know what a retcon is?

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: "kabuto retconned his word since he didnt know itachi's true power" - Natrix 2017

      Do you even know what a retcon is?

      I meant rephrased . I didnt go that detail into grammar but you got the point right? Kabuto said itachi is the most powerful edo tensei . Why are you acting like it isnt stated in the manga?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: I meant rephrased . I didnt go that detail into grammar but you got the point right? Kabuto said itachi is the most powerful edo tensei . Why are you acting like it isnt stated in the manga?

      Kabuto never said Itachi was the most powerful edo tensei, where are you getting that from? He says Itachi is in another league sure but let's have a look shall we:

      • Itachi needed Shisui's eye to break out of Kabuto's control but Madara outright just releases Kabuto's control with no outside help at all. If Shisui's eye wasn't there Itachi would still be under control.
      • Kabuto said Itachi was in another league, but that doesn't really compare to when he referred to Madara's power as being that of a Gods during Madara's stomp of the Shinobi alliance. Go rewatch or reread every time Kabuto talks about Madara after reanimating him, Itachi isn't beating that not even close.
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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: I meant rephrased . I didnt go that detail into grammar but you got the point right? Kabuto said itachi is the most powerful edo tensei . Why are you acting like it isnt stated in the manga?

      Kabuto never said Itachi was the most powerful edo tensei, where are you getting that from? He says Itachi is in another league sure but let's have a look shall we:

      • Itachi needed Shisui's eye to break out of Kabuto's control but Madara outright just releases Kabuto's control with no outside help at all. If Shisui's eye wasn't there Itachi would still be under control.
      • Kabuto said Itachi was in another league, but that doesn't really compare to when he referred to Madara's power as being that of a Gods during Madara's stomp of the Shinobi alliance. Go rewatch or reread every time Kabuto talks about Madara after reanimating him, Itachi isn't beating that not even close.

      You are literally joking with me right? Did you ever read the kabuto vs Itachi Sasuke fight? Kabuto says itachi is the most perfect edo tensei , not just in a different league . Dont compare present feats with hype . Hiruzen was stated to be higher than the previous kage but his current feats are not . So its just that itachi never uses his full power , When sasuke was going to attack kabuto , itachi said " Sasuke dont be rough" ... which means even than he didnt want to treat kabuto harshly . And wait you said itachi couldnt resist edo tensei? Lmao , he resisted edo tensei hence why kabuto said " even the edo tensei cant hold him" even though he knew KA's power , he attributed the edo tensei resistance to itachi not on KA and its also a fact , Itachi couldve used tsukuyomi on bee and naruto and take them to kabuto in the get go since they were all staring at his eyes and we have seen him using tsukuyomi with bare sharingan . Or amaterasu on bee and cancel it like sasuke . Edo tensei can be resisted by certain characters like hashirama ; itachi can do the same . Madara knowing the seals already doesnt make it a feat . Whats so cool about that since you brought that feat to prove what a big thing it is? Kabuto even said itachi can stop the war go read that chapter fully , I cant even post links here .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam And wait you said itachi couldnt resist edo tensei? Lmao , he resisted edo tensei

      He didn't. he programmed Shisui's eye, but that was never meant for himself, as Itachi himself said. Kabuto thought it was pre-planned hence he said that, but he couldn't have known otherwise.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam And wait you said itachi couldnt resist edo tensei? Lmao , he resisted edo tensei

      He didn't. he programmed Shisui's eye, but that was never meant for himself, as Itachi himself said. Kabuto thought it was pre-planned hence he said that, but he couldn't have known otherwise.

      Kabuto knew about KA yet said edo tensei cant hold itachi. He could resist it , but he fully broke the control like madara did with KA. Otherwise tsukuyomi was a oneshot option yet he didnt do it.

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    • But when did madara break through edo tensei? Didn't he rewrote it after the caster released the jutsu? Only Hashirama can break Edo tensei with sheer power.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: But when did madara break through edo tensei? Didn't he rewrote it after the caster released the jutsu? Only Hashirama can break Edo tensei with sheer power.

      Madara knew the hand seals ; even konohamaru can break it if he knows the hand seals .

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    • well madara some how along the line must have found out the correct hand seals for the jutsu to release it possibly from tobirama in battle as he may have used it aginst izuna

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: But when did madara break through edo tensei? Didn't he rewrote it after the caster released the jutsu? Only Hashirama can break Edo tensei with sheer power.

      Madara knew the hand seals ; even konohamaru can break it if he knows the hand seals .

      Dude breaking it with the seals isn't that easy as it sounds. The only reason why Madara could do that was because Kabuto was incapacitated or else he would have taken control over him. Or either they lose interest in this world like many others who left edo tensei once their unfulfilled wish was granted.
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: But when did madara break through edo tensei? Didn't he rewrote it after the caster released the jutsu? Only Hashirama can break Edo tensei with sheer power.

      Madara knew the hand seals ; even konohamaru can break it if he knows the hand seals .

      Dude breaking it with the seals isn't that easy as it sounds. The only reason why Madara could do that was because Kabuto was incapacitated or else he would have taken control over him. Or either they lose interest in this world like many others who left edo tensei once their unfulfilled wish was granted.

      What i meant is, if konohamaru knew the seals and the edo tensei gets released , he too would be able to rewrite it like madara . I dont think it can get tougher than weaving seals , can it?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: What i meant is, if konohamaru knew the seals and the edo tensei gets released , he too would be able to rewrite it like madara . I dont think it can get tougher than weaving seals , can it?

      As controller of jutsu, you can control the edo summon, every action of it. So even if you know the seals you won't be able to weave it if the caster is vigilant. that's all I am saying. Only Hashirama can break it with brute force as seen when Orochimaru was apprehensive of him when he used edo tensei on the 4 hokages.
      Madara's feat is no better than Itachi's in that sense.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: What i meant is, if konohamaru knew the seals and the edo tensei gets released , he too would be able to rewrite it like madara . I dont think it can get tougher than weaving seals , can it?

      As controller of jutsu, you can control the edo summon, every action of it. So even if you know the seals you won't be able to weave it if the caster is vigilant. that's all I am saying. Only Hashirama can break it with brute force as seen when Orochimaru was apprehensive of him when he used edo tensei on the 4 hokages.
      Madara's feat is no better than Itachi's in that sense.

      I was talking bout if someone already breaks it .... the moment the technique is released , anyone who knows the seals can rewrite it . When someone controls them , then no one can rewrite it no matter even if they know the seals , I agree . Though kabuto attributed edo resistance to itachi and not KA , as in the same page he says "Only one genjutsu is capable of doing this..." yet he attributes the resistance to itachi , which means itachi resisted it before KA completely broke it. Hence why kabuto couldnt use oneshot moves even though itachi used base genjutsu against bee .

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    • This thread is moving too fast to catch up. I barely read the previous posts....

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Though kabuto attributed edo resistance to itachi and not KA , as in the same page he says "Only one genjutsu is capable of doing this..." yet he attributes the resistance to itachi , which means itachi resisted it before KA completely broke it. Hence why kabuto couldnt use oneshot moves even though itachi used base genjutsu against bee .

      edo resistance is there in case of summons with strong will power like the Sand's Pakura(scorch user) and some other character however I don't remember Madara or any other Akatsuki member being controlled completely by Kabuto. Do you mind giving the chapter no ?
      Back to the topic I think so Rinnegan can't block Tsukuyomi than...
      EDIT: However If original user is Uchiha perhaps he could block out the genjutsu.

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    • Sasuke only showed to brake through IT with PS and rinnegan.No feats for rinnegan alone.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Though kabuto attributed edo resistance to itachi and not KA , as in the same page he says "Only one genjutsu is capable of doing this..." yet he attributes the resistance to itachi , which means itachi resisted it before KA completely broke it. Hence why kabuto couldnt use oneshot moves even though itachi used base genjutsu against bee .

      edo resistance is there in case of summons with strong will power like the Sand's Pakura(scorch user) and some other character however I don't remember Madara or any other Akatsuki member being controlled completely by Kabuto. Do you mind giving the chapter no ?
      Back to the topic I think so Rinnegan can't block Tsukuyomi than...
      EDIT: However If original user is Uchiha perhaps he could block out the genjutsu.

      Madara wasnt completely controlled because kabuto wanted him to go all out because he said "Show me a part of the god's power". In chapter no. 550 , he said itachi resisted edo tensei even though he knew KA broke it .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Madara wasnt completely controlled because kabuto wanted him to go all out because he said "Show me a part of the god's power". In chapter no. 550 , he said itachi resisted edo tensei even though he knew KA broke it .

      But didn't you read the next Dialogue where Kabuto says that it can be only "his genjutsu", It's clear that Kabuto was still talking about Kotoamatsukami.

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: You are literally joking with me right? Did you ever read the kabuto vs Itachi Sasuke fight? Kabuto says itachi is the most perfect edo tensei , not just in a different league . Dont compare present feats with hype . Hiruzen was stated to be higher than the previous kage but his current feats are not . So its just that itachi never uses his full power , When sasuke was going to attack kabuto , itachi said " Sasuke dont be rough" ... which means even than he didnt want to treat kabuto harshly . And wait you said itachi couldnt resist edo tensei? Lmao , he resisted edo tensei hence why kabuto said " even the edo tensei cant hold him" even though he knew KA's power , he attributed the edo tensei resistance to itachi not on KA and its also a fact , Itachi couldve used tsukuyomi on bee and naruto and take them to kabuto in the get go since they were all staring at his eyes and we have seen him using tsukuyomi with bare sharingan . Or amaterasu on bee and cancel it like sasuke . Edo tensei can be resisted by certain characters like hashirama ; itachi can do the same . Madara knowing the seals already doesnt make it a feat . Whats so cool about that since you brought that feat to prove what a big thing it is? Kabuto even said itachi can stop the war go read that chapter fully , I cant even post links here .

      Itachi is the most perfect Edo my foot, Kabuto nearly punked his ass TWICE in their battle; once when he impaled Itachi using inorganic reincarnation and then again when he literally cut him in half and was about to put a tag seal in his head if Sasuke didn't intervene.

      http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art:_Inorganic_Reincarnation

      Nearly every character in the series openly acknowledges the only one stronger than Madara is Hashirama, it's only when Naruto and Sasuke get their 6 path power ups they can fight Madara on even ground. You're basically trying to say Itachi is stronger than the 1st Hokage i.e. the God of Shinobi who captured all 9 tailed beasts as we see in flashbacks to the first 5 kage summit. Yeeeeah Itachi could totally stop the war...which is why Madara and Obito later started tearing the alliance apart with the Juubi because he totally stopped the war. Kabuto never said that, give me a chapter number now because I've recently reread that fight and I'm not seeing that at all.

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    • </div> Itachi is the most perfect Edo my foot, Kabuto nearly punked his ass TWICE in their battle; once when he impaled Itachi using inorganic reincarnation and then again when he literally cut him in half and was about to put a tag seal in his head if Sasuke didn't intervene.

      http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art:_Inorganic_Reincarnation

      Nearly every character in the series openly acknowledges the only one stronger than Madara is Hashirama, it's only when Naruto and Sasuke get their 6 path power ups they can fight Madara on even ground. You're basically trying to say Itachi is stronger than the 1st Hokage i.e. the God of Shinobi who captured all 9 tailed beasts as we see in flashbacks to the first 5 kage summit. Yeeeeah Itachi could totally stop the war...which is why Madara and Obito later started tearing the alliance apart with the Juubi because he totally stopped the war. Kabuto never said that, give me a chapter number now because I've recently reread that fight and I'm not seeing that at all. </div>

      In chapter 585 , kabuto says itachi is the finest foil he could ever get in his edo tensei jutsu .

      Namikaze@ he said "resisted" , not itachi "broke it" . He is clearly giving light to itachi's edo tensei resistance and seperating KA from it .

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    • Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

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    • Itachi da solo god one shots madara /s

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei.

      Notably, Madara easily broke the Edo Tensei. Realistically there was never going to be a Kabuto controlling Madara. Itachi on the other hand, is both a talented and versatile and strong ninja, yet doesn't make Edo tensei look like a joke. It's the best Edo he can ask for: strong, yet under his control completely.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Itachi da solo god one shots madara /s

      Seems legit.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Notably, Madara easily broke the Edo Tensei. Realistically there was never going to be a Kabuto controlling Madara. Itachi on the other hand, is both a talented and versatile and strong ninja, yet doesn't make Edo tensei look like a joke. It's the best Edo he can ask for: strong, yet under his control completely.

      Again I reiterate, Kabuto did have complete control. Realistically he was going after 6 paths power and was actually testing Madara' s abilities. Which meant the next augmentation was recreation of rinnegan. Two he had agato whom he easily controlled what would make madara so special that he can't control him?

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    • Hashirama`s cells?Combined with strongest uchiha of all time i wouldnt be shocked kabuto cant control him.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

      Then according to you what would "finest foil" mean then? Kabuto was basically saying itachi was the best edo tensei he could ever get.... what else is it supposed to mean?

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Hashirama`s cells?Combined with strongest uchiha of all time i wouldnt be shocked kabuto cant control him.

      That's speculation at best. Madara never showed signs of breaking edo tensei. Two Kabuto had complete control over all of his edo tensei, it's not like he was doing something without doing the background work. Orochimaru knew the moment he used edo tensei on Hashirama that he could break and that was definitely not the case with him.
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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

      Then according to you what would "finest foil" mean then? Kabuto was basically saying itachi was the best edo tensei he could ever get.... what else is it supposed to mean?

      Best edo tensei for him is not the same as strongest edo tensei.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
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      16:11, December 5, 2017
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Orochimaru knew the moment he used edo tensei on Hashirama that he could break and that was definitely not the case with him.

      Kabuto mentioned earlier that while for some he had to repress their personality, other Edo were best left with free will. When Itachi and Nagato fight they mention they have no control and eventually are not able to respond freely. But Madara was talking to Kabuto, talking to the Kage, saying stuff about his power etc. All indications were that Madara was free to act. Kabuto implies to Madara that he revived him just to confirm his theory about the Rinnegan.

      Secondly, Madara undoes the Edo Contract simply by making the signs, so at any point he could've done the same. He simply chose not to.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Madara never showed signs of breaking edo tensei.

      You mean other than the fact that he was freely talking, acting and moving, and blasted out of the Edo Tensei coffin like it wasn't even remotely holding him? Unlike literally every other Edo?

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Secondly, Madara undoes the Edo Contract simply by making the signs, so at any point he could've done the same. He simply chose not to.
      Do you really think madara would have been given that chance? Kabuto was never gonna drop his guard around him and you saw how easily he could restrict the tensei when he wanted, Even Nagato wasn't an exception to this. Kabuto would have simply taken over his psyche had Madara shown any such trick.

      Thekillman wrote: You mean other than the fact that he was freely talking, acting and moving, and blasted out of the Edo Tensei coffin like it wasn't even remotely holding him? Unlike literally every other Edo?

      No not that. Orochimaru knew the moment he reincarnated Hashirama that he wouldn't be able to hold him down. No such thing for madara. In fact Orochimaru uses Hashi's cells to strengthen his control over other Hokages. That's why saying Madara can break the Edo tensei is very big stretch, Either by using sign or raw power.
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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

      Then according to you what would "finest foil" mean then? Kabuto was basically saying itachi was the best edo tensei he could ever get.... what else is it supposed to mean?

      Best edo tensei for him is not the same as strongest edo tensei.

      Finest foil = Perfect and the best edo tensei kabuto can ever get . Theres no other meaning , just different meaning .

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    • Does not mean strongest LOL.Are you telling me itachi is stronger than madara?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

      Then according to you what would "finest foil" mean then? Kabuto was basically saying itachi was the best edo tensei he could ever get.... what else is it supposed to mean?

      Yes the best edo tensei would be the one powerful enough to be the greatest asset but not so powerful that they break free from the users control think about it. Itachi would never have broken free if it wasn't for Shisui's eye. The best does not always mean the strongest, how more obvious could it be? Kabuto refers to Madara as his 'trump card' in chapter 588 and don't say that's referring to Itachi because by that point Itachi had already broken out of his control.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Finest foil =/= best Edo Tensei. Look, you manage to convince me Itachi is stronger than Hashirama and then maybe I'll consider it but until then he is maybe the 2nd strongest Akatsuki member if we had to put him on a scale. Like I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what exactly Itachi is going to do against Madara.

      Then according to you what would "finest foil" mean then? Kabuto was basically saying itachi was the best edo tensei he could ever get.... what else is it supposed to mean?

      Yes the best edo tensei would be the one powerful enough to be the greatest asset but not so powerful that they break free from the users control think about it. Itachi would never have broken free if it wasn't for Shisui's eye. The best does not always mean the strongest, how more obvious could it be? Kabuto refers to Madara as his 'trump card' in chapter 588 and don't say that's referring to Itachi because by that point Itachi had already broken out of his control.

      I dont like repeating myself .... and dont deny manga facts. Kabuto clearly said itachi resisted it without KA , the only thing KA did was completely break the control . Itachi could resist kabuto even while in control , hence why he didnt use his first class moves . Hes the finest edo tensei and the most powerful , kabuto was ignorant of that fact so he called madara his trump card but later rephrased it . You are so kidding and fooling around right now , kabuto was completely capable of controlling madara was he not? So your little theory is not manga fact . Or show me a panel where he says controlling madara was difficult for him , go read the manga and stop acting like you dont know anything just to protect your fave's status . He loses against itachi . Itachi was going easy on kabuto hence why he didnt use his other powers and jutsu according to kabuto himself.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
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      16:10, December 5, 2017
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    • When was he able to control madara?LOL

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: When was he able to control madara?LOL

      I know right, the things this guy comes up with. I don't know whether to be exasperated about such a lost cause or entertained at such a vivid imagination. Madara breaks Kabuto's jutsu like it's child's play, four-eyes couldn't control him on a good day.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: I know right, the things this guy comes up with. I don't know whether to be exasperated about such a lost cause or entertained at such a vivid imagination.

      Little bit of column A, little bit of Column B. There's no indication Madara was ever under Kabuto's control. I didn't see Itachi blasting out of his coffin like it wasn't even there.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: I know right, the things this guy comes up with. I don't know whether to be exasperated about such a lost cause or entertained at such a vivid imagination.

      Little bit of column A, little bit of Column B. There's no indication Madara was ever under Kabuto's control. I didn't see Itachi blasting out of his coffin like it wasn't even there.

      Not to mention that twice in his fight with Kabuto, Itachi nearly got his ass handed to him if it wasn't for Sasuke's quick thinking e.g. Getting stabbed by the cave and getting bisected.

      I can just hear the response now. "Yeah but Madara got bisected by Rock Lee (conveniently ignoring Kyuubi cloak) and Sasuke so he got cut in half twice therefore Itachi is stronger, another victory for logic."

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    • @Starscream1998
      So you actually think madara can beat kabuto?
      I really find it funny when people bring other characters into the debate just to prove their point when there is no connection/relation between them.
      @Killman
      If Madara want under control why didn't he just go off and initated the plan on his own? If Madara was capable of breaking the jutsu with raw power Kabuto would have known it. He can't.
      EDIT:Kabuto by the way didn't have any visible advantage over itachi.

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    • Neither did he on madara.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: If Madara want under control why didn't he just go off and initated the plan on his own?

      He wanted to play around, he said so himself.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @Starscream1998
      So you actually think madara can beat kabuto?

      Please explain to me what exactly you think Kabuto could do to Madara, I'm simply dying to hear it. Also, comparing characters is a completely legitimate way to scale their powers so I'm not seeing your problem here besides the fact there isn't one.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Please explain to me what exactly you think Kabuto could do to Madara, I'm simply dying to hear it. Also, comparing characters is a completely legitimate way to scale their powers so I'm not seeing your problem here besides the fact there isn't one.

      Wouldn't better question be what madara can do? Honestly I doubt he can even harm kabuto
      @Killman
      Did he say? Also like I said Kabuto knew the risks if Madara could break out of it he would have known. Also Kabuto can strengthen his bindings even further with use of Hashirama's cells.
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Also like I said Kabuto knew the risks if Madara could break out of it he would have known. Also Kabuto can strengthen his bindings even further with use of Hashirama's cells.

      We have virtually no idea what Kabuto's endgame was at all. He tried to get the jinchuriki (for some reason), that's the closest we ever got to a plan. Half the stuff he did seemed for shits n giggles. If his plan was to have Madara as a diversion for Obito and the Alliance to deal with, then he massively succeed there.

      We do know why he summoned Madara, which was to confirm his hypothesis about Madara. He didn't say that he summoned him for firepower, or certain abilities.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Wouldn't better question be what madara can do? Honestly I doubt he can even harm kabuto

      are you... are you serious?

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      We have virtually no idea what Kabuto's endgame was at all. He tried to get the jinchuriki (for some reason), that's the closest we ever got to a plan. Half the stuff he did seemed for shits n giggles. If his plan was to have Madara as a diversion for Obito and the Alliance to deal with, then he massively succeed there.
      Just because you don't have the idea doesn't means none of us know his end game. Kabuto works like a scientist and his end game was producing his perfect self. Yes this means he was actually testing all kinds of powers amongst all these Shinobi's and further decide which one to use to further augment. He actually establishes origins of rinnegan and several other details including the fact that Hashirama was still largely unsurpassed in prowess.

      Thekillman wrote:

      We do know why he summoned Madara, which was to confirm his hypothesis about Madara. He didn't say that he summoned him for firepower, or certain abilities.
      Actually he summoned madara for firepower considering how fast most of his edos were being sealed. Madara's arrival started to twist fight in Akatsuki's favor.

      Thekillman wrote: are you... are you serious?

      Genjutsu ain't gonna work. Taijutsu too isn't gonna work. Top that with his incredible summons like Edo Tesei, Manda II. Do you still think I am exaggerating?
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Just because you don't have the idea doesn't means none of us know his end game.

      He never states an actual goal. We see some glimpses of his plan (like stealing biju), but the actual proper endgame? No. Seems doubtful that he'd let Obito go so far with his plan just to gather more power for himself, since he would have an extremely hard time fighting TTJ Rinnegan Obito by himself. Sure stealing Biju would've delayed that plan, but Obito still could create the Juubi. Sasuke seemed to have been a part of his plan (to confirm further his rinnegan theories?), but there's no way he could control Sasuke. And then what, the world is destroyed, what does that do for him? We know why Obito wanted to cast IT (the world was hell and he wanted a better world), we know why Madara wanted to cast IT (because the cycle of violence was innate to the world, so only IT could stop it). We know why many characters went so far. But we don't know what Kabuto intended to do beyond this. For instance, was he planning on becoming a Jinchuriki himself?

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Genjutsu ain't gonna work. Taijutsu too isn't gonna work. Top that with his incredible summons like Edo Tesei, Manda II. Do you still think I am exaggerating?

      Madara summons a few meteors to destroy any place Kabuto can hide. He can easily drain his chakra, or just destroy the mountain he hides under with Perfect Susanoo. The scale on which Kabuto and Madara fight are not compatible, not by a mile. Manda 2 is less than cannon fodder.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      He never states an actual goal. We see some glimpses of his plan (like stealing biju), but the actual proper endgame? No. Seems doubtful that he'd let Obito go so far with his plan just to gather more power for himself, since he would have an extremely hard time fighting TTJ Rinnegan Obito by himself.
      Are you implying that Madara is stronger than Obito too?
      I am not very sure but I think so they did mention in manga that Kabuto's role was to collect data on strongest of Shinobi to augument himself?

      Thekillman wrote: Sure stealing Biju would've delayed that plan, but Obito still could create the Juubi. Sasuke seemed to have been a part of his plan (to confirm further his rinnegan theories?), but there's no way he could control Sasuke. And then what, the world is destroyed, what does that do for him? We know why Obito wanted to cast IT (the world was hell and he wanted a better world), we know why Madara wanted to cast IT (because the cycle of violence was innate to the world, so only IT could stop it). We know why many characters went so far. But we don't know what Kabuto intended to do beyond this. For instance, was he planning on becoming a Jinchuriki himself?

      HE was going to replicate Sage of Six paths after this I am guessing. Afterall he did have clear idea about myths regarding the Bijus too so I wouldn't be surprised that he knew about the purpose of Gedo. Maybe go even further down the Geneology of ninjas to discover true powers. I don't know but what I am sure of that Kabuto was going to become strongest being either for better or worse.

      Thekillman wrote: Madara summons a few meteors to destroy any place Kabuto can hide. He can easily drain his chakra, or just destroy the mountain he hides under with Perfect Susanoo. The scale on which Kabuto and Madara fight are not compatible, not by a mile. Manda 2 is less than cannon fodder.

      Let's say that actually I play along. WHat about Mu destroying it with Dust release? Or Third Raikage breaking it into pieces?
      Madara can't absorb senjutsu. Kabuto's senjutsu is much different from Hashirama's. Also How Is Madara supposed to catch that slippery bastard? Mtor is good for AoE not for one on one especially when Kabuto can outrun the Blast radius. Just so you know Gamabunta was holding against Kurama and other Bijus. Manda held up against Katsuyu and Gamabuna simultaneously. Manda II fodderised a giant turtle much bigger than its size. Still think its useless in a fight?
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Not really seeing as hopefully everyone here is well aware of what Madara can do. Rip out his soul, impale him with various wood style jutsu, surround him with clones each using a Susanoo etc. You have a problem if you can't see how Kabuto would get unapologetically stomped by Madara unless you actually believe Kabuto is Hashirama level. Explain to me what Kabuto is going to do against Perfect Susanoo exactly?

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    • The things this starcream guy spouts makes me think to whether be appalled at his reeking stupidity or praise him for his creative complex bull crap imagination lmfao . The things this kid says is beyond ridiculous an hilarious , I can't stop laughing lmfao . Why wasnt madara able to break out without the deactivation of edo tensei? Lmfao? Okay wait kabuto clearly claimed itachi had holded back against him as he had many powers and jutsu which he didnt use at kabuto and the only time he got sliced was to iniatiate the loop so stop acting stupid and like a troll trash idiot , its not gonna get you nowhere buddy . Stop trying so hard , good guy , you can do better than that and stop acting so moronic and stop dick riding madara's cock so hard . Just stop .Yeah madara sprouted outta ET like "whats this" right?...Oh wait ! Madara was so happy that he got a real blood body so why didnt he fulfill his desire when kabuto was controlling him? Lmfao hahaha he couldn't do that then? Whats your excuse smart guy? Did kabuto admit any difficulty in controlling madara or are you thrusting madara's cock so hard down your throat you can't bear to think properly? Stop trolling lmfao . Accept it your great hero couldnt break out of ET like nothing lmfao he was restricted and bound by the chains of ET completely . While itachi resisted it freely hence why he didnt slice the throat of bee with his superior taijutsu when he got him trapped in genjutsu something both gyuki and bee never realized . And why he never used tsukuyomi on bee . Lmfao try something else to fit your hobby , you clearly are trying hard to compete when you cant comprehend the simplest substance of this manga . Kabuto admitted itachi resisted ET , KA broke it completely so dont go giving off itachi's feat to KA .

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Not really seeing as hopefully everyone here is well aware of what Madara can do. Rip out his soul, impale him with various wood style jutsu, surround him with clones each using a Susanoo etc. You have a problem if you can't see how Kabuto would get unapologetically stomped by Madara unless you actually believe Kabuto is Hashirama level. Explain to me what Kabuto is going to do against Perfect Susanoo exactly?

      I am pretty sure I don't need to be reminded of Rinnegan's abilities. But before you scoff this off tell me how many people actually fell victim to that famous soul Ripper? Sage Kabuto is most dangerous not only because of his own abilities but the Edo tensei which he uses. Each of those Susanoo arguments or Wood clones could be easily killed by his edos. He will keep Madara completely occupied before killing him.
      By the way most of Madara's attacks are nullified completely by Kabuto's abilities. He has hydrification for physical attacks. If Madara uses Soul ripper he will shed skin before he attempts such a publicity stunt. Even Wood release can be suprresed by Kabuto like he did to Yamato. As far as I know Madara himself was never Hashirama level no matter how you break it. Tobirama was more his plate. So don't say that Kabuto should be Hashirama level to beat Madara. Also What about Sound genjutsu? Even Itachi and Sasuke fell for it.

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    • Ok first off name one reanimation who isn't Hashirama who poses a credible threat to Madara. Genjutsu can be overpowered using the Sharingan as Itachi demonstrated early on when fighting Kurenai in Part 1. Also, did you really just make a comparison between Yamato and Madara's level of wood style? Yamato was out of breath after building a couple of houses after Pain levelled the leaf, Madara created an entire forest so go figure. Also Kabuto had already disarmed Yamato so that's an incredibly weak argument.

      Oh by the way Natrix, I didn't read a word of your incomprehensible drivel. Try looking into paragraphs.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Ok first off name one reanimation who isn't Hashirama who poses a credible threat to Madara.
      What am I suppose to say to do this? By your logic no one other than Hashirama would beat this guy.

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Genjutsu can be overpowered using the Sharingan as Itachi demonstrated early on when fighting Kurenai in Part 1.

      Not true. Kurenai uses Visual genjutsu, Superior Visual Genjutsu would trump it. Itachi and Sasuke despite possessing Better Genjutsu capability aren't able to break Kabuto's genjutsu without each other's assistance. Madara's Susanoo won't protect him from light or sound.

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Also, did you really just make a comparison between Yamato and Madara's level of wood style? Yamato was out of breath after building a couple of houses after Pain levelled the leaf, Madara created an entire forest so go figure. Also Kabuto had already disarmed Yamato so that's an incredibly weak argument.
      Yeah I was talking about Tobi-Yamato using several hundred hands which is above anything Madara did with Wood release in base. That puts him above Madara for comparison sake.
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    • A FANDOM user
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