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  • this one made me think.. a lot.. so why not use more than one head? well, what do u think? this is ms-only madara, and prime tobirama. both at their physical and mental primes (so madara can only use jutsus viable in this current state, but has all the knowledge of his life. same for tobirama. both alive)

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    • Ms Madara is as strong as Izuna. So considering Tobirama defeated Izuna, the same result should play out here.

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    • aha! I knew someone would say this! but the deal is: that was a fact around two decades before konoha was a thing. that means that madara improved in said 20 or so years. we have seen what 2 years can do, and madara was stronger than izuna anyways. look, this might not change ur mind, but think of the same madara who was fighting the 5 kage without using anything but his humanoid susanoo (a susanoo that his basic ms can use), or the same madara that was using light-speed jutsu and shit. he can still use those jutsu, but just not at the same lvl. wont that make it fairer?

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: that means that madara improved in said 20 or so years. we have seen what 2 years can do

      Are you talking about Madara improving following Izuna's defeat? If so, he gained the EMS after his brother's defeat, making any improvement not relevant to this discussion.

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    • I honestly find the "MS Izuna was equal to MS Madara" statement to be BS. I'm just not buying it. Tobirama was clearly stronger than Izuna since he is the one who killed him in 1 vs 1. But at the same time, Hashirama was not able to beat Madara, or at least didn't beat Madara on the war ground. So for me to say that Tobirama was also on Hashirama's level, or to say that the 4 brothers were all on the same level during that time makes no sense. Even back then, Hashirama was undoubtedly the stronger brother. And i believe there is a reason why Hashirama the stronger brother, was fighting Madara. Because Madara was also the stronger brother. Yes, i know there was a theme there with the younger brother vs younger brother and older brother vs older brother, but still...As far as i recall, during their childhood Izuna was idolizing Madara as the stronger one, and was surprised when he found out that Hashirama was comparable/stronger than him. Although they were only kids, considering Madara's prodigious, hard work and genius on the combat zone and the fact that he had more time than Izuna in training since he was the older one, i find it hard to believe that Izuna somehow catch up.

      I know that Izuna is pretty featless, and that statement is the only hit of his power that he really got, but at least for me, when i'm really thinking about it, it makes no sense for him to be Madara's equal.

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    • see?

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    • Hashirama NEVER wanted to kill Madara, and he held back accordingly. If the story says Izuna and Madara were equal when they had MS, they were equal. It's just Tobirama was actually fighting to kill, while Hashirama was fighting to defeat only. Which was never enough to beat Madara. And we saw what happened when hashirama finally got his resolve up to kill Madara; he killed him.

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    • yeah, but hashi still almost lost. THAT makes the difference. in the end, the fight wasn't a crazy, apeshit, one sided fight. madara almost won. could izuna have done the same? and ur anwer wont really matter, since im using a madara, in this case, who is physically and mentally 20 years older anyways. its just that the only thing he can use in this fight are abilities and techniques that are only viable in his ms-only form. its that simple.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: yeah, but hashi still almost lost. THAT makes the difference. in the end, the fight wasn't a crazy, apeshit, one sided fight. madara almost won. could izuna have done the same? and ur anwer wont really matter, since im using a madara, in this case, who is physically and mentally 20 years older anyways. its just that the only thing he can use in this fight are abilities and techniques that are only viable in his ms-only form. its that simple.

      Hashi lost when?
      Two wasn't there some DB stuff where Tobirama was said to be EMS madara's equal?
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    • Hashi almost lost to Madara. Tobirama almost lost to Izuna. The Senju brothers were only slightly better than the Uchiha, with Hashi probably having the bigger margin between him and Madara. Hashi held back during the entire Valley of the End fight. At the very end, he decided enough was enough and went for the killing blow.

      Point is, Izuna and Madara were equal as MS brothers. And Tobirama proved he could take down one, so the other will most likely fall to Tobirama too. Madara didn't start overtaking Tobirama til he got EMS, and even with EMS it'd still be a very hard fight for Madara.

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    • u people aren't understanding my point. the clan wars madara would lose to this tobirama, but a prime madara (the one that fought against Naruto and sasuke) with only an ms at his disposal, wouldn't. get it now?

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Hashi held back during the entire Valley of the End fight. At the very end, he decided enough was enough and went for the killing blow.

      There's no such indication. At every point Hashirama was forced to be serious in order to keep up with Madara. In the end, a single good move by Hashirama decided the fight.

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    • No feats on MS Madara so far. I'll go with Tobirama. High diff tho.

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    • cool. thank u.

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    • @Asianreaper and @Killman
      I still think its stretching a lot to say if Madara was Hashirama's equal especially when it took formidable summon like Kurama to cover the gap and even than he didn't win.
      Tobirama won against Izuna because of his ingenuity. That was the first use of FTG if I recall. Had It been Madara instead of Izuna he would have died too but that's my opinion.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @Asianreaper and @Killman
      I still think its stretching a lot to say if Madara was Hashirama's equal especially when it took formidable summon like Kurama to cover the gap and even than he didn't win.

      It's within Madara's power to subjugate Kurama and use him as a summon. Similarly it's within Hashirama's power to absorb nature energy and use it for his own ends. Power is power, internal or external.

      Besides, in that fight the primary use of Kurama was to counteract hashirama's sage mode (since Hashirama was forced into it by Majestic Kurama, and afterwards used massive chakra and nature energy to subjugate kurama). We count Kurama as Naruto's power, the same way we count Rinnegan as Nagato's power. If you can use something, then it's fair game.

      And in the end, both men were dead tired and Hashirama won with a single clone jutsu left. Meaning it was very close.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Had It been Madara instead of Izuna he would have died too but that's my opinion.

      Odds are good on that, yea. It's difficult to tell how Madara would react to it there (since he seemed to be a big fan of Susanoo and it would be a good defense against FTG), but i think it's fair to say that MS Madara would be on Tobirama's level yea.

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    • @Thekillman I always thought it was implied that Hashi finally got the resolve to kill Madara at the very end, but not during the fight.

      Sort of like how Naruto was forced to fight seriously with Sasuke, but he held back in terms of killing intent.

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    • nah, hashi was going from the moment that he wanted to throw kurama's 1st attack (a bijuu bomb) back at madara's face. madara would've legitimately died, if it weren't for him being good old madara...

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    • AsianReaper wrote: I always thought it was implied that Hashi finally got the resolve to kill Madara at the very end, but not during the fight.

      Sort of like how Naruto was forced to fight seriously with Sasuke, but he held back in terms of killing intent.

      Nah, the resolve to kill Madara happened when he entered Sage Mode. Similarly, Naruto got that resolve when he truly entered SPSM (and sasuke said "so you're finally getting serious").

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    • To be honest, I just think it would come down to point of time and intel. If Madara fights like he did in the 4th war (against the Shinobi Allied Forces soldiers), using pure Taijutsu, he’s going to lose in the first actions of the battle. If we place Madara into the same situation as Izuna, when he doesn’t know about the Hiraishin, then all Tobi has to do is put Madara into a similar non-Susano’o state vs Flying Raijin Slash.

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    • Well thanks to EMS and hashi cells , he was able to crush anything in his way. Even tho he was reanimated (weaker version.) But then again i really can't seem to get how would that same Madara but only with MS look like , or what would he be capable of. We can only assume that he can maintain Susano for long amount of time , nothing else.

      Plus adding knowledge of his life , well that means he do know about FTG.

      However , let me bring this up. When Edo Tobirama (again weaker version) attacked Sage Mode rinne Madara , well Sage Mode saved him to react on FTG. Then after that , i think Madara was able to anticipate Tobi next move , so he got countered and pinned to the ground.

      However we never seen what have Madara done to counter Tobirama back there , if he was forced to use limbo to defend that could really go against MS Madara here.

      And then again , alive Madara during 4th war was pretty strong no doubt , but most of that power was coming from his EMS and Hashi cells. So i really have no idea how that same Madara but only with MS would be like.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      It's within Madara's power to subjugate Kurama and use him as a summon. Similarly it's within Hashirama's power to absorb nature energy and use it for his own ends. Power is power, internal or external.
      They are definitely not the same things. Hashirama is using the ability of his strong body just like madara uses his dojutsu. Kurama or any other summon would technically would be addition of foes especially when hashirama didn't use summon to fight back.

      Thekillman wrote: Besides, in that fight the primary use of Kurama was to counteract hashirama's sage mode (since Hashirama was forced into it by Majestic Kurama, and afterwards used massive chakra and nature energy to subjugate kurama). We count Kurama as Naruto's power, the same way we count Rinnegan as Nagato's power. If you can use something, then it's fair game.

      Well not counting the end of shippuden, Kurama was acting just like chakra reservoir. He wasn't helping naruto the way he helped madara. And besides if someone defeats Naruto with Kurama's chakra we do concede as both being defeated. If you follow your line of logic than Edo tensei are equally valid. Afterall the summoner of dead army has also subjugated them.

      Thekillman wrote: And in the end, both men were dead tired and Hashirama won with a single clone jutsu left. Meaning it was very close.

      That wasn't the case, Hashirama was clearly frustrated by madara's attempts at destroying the village. He didn't consider killing him until he realized that madara would keep coming back for more. It's quite clear that Hashirama had enough chakra to fool madara with clone. Madara on other hand couldn't keep even basic sharingan activated. It's clear who was superior and the fight wasn't same as both fighting alone.
      @Killman
      Than since you are satisfied with Madara using Kurama perhaps you won't hold it against me if I suggest Tobirama using Hashirama as Edo tensei?

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      They are definitely not the same things. Hashirama is using the ability of his strong body just like madara uses his dojutsu. Kurama or any other summon would technically would be addition of foes especially when hashirama didn't use summon to fight back.

      Nature energy doesn't exist for shits n giggles. It's real energy that exists in the world, and serves a real function. Ranging from the heat and work stored in air, heat stored in the earth, work stored in the flow of water, energy embedded in light. Without that energy, the world would be a cold dead rock. Emphasis on cold.

      Sage Mode steals that energy to use it for your own gain, just as Sharingan can steal another's power, either figuratively via Jutsu or literally via Genjutsu. We can go 20 rounds about what is morally worse or whatever, but Sage Mode is by it's very definition not one's own power, it's literally, completely and without ambiguity external power.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Afterall the summoner of dead army has also subjugated them.

      Edo Tensei doesn't really require subjugation though. But that's not my point when people use Edo Tensei in fights. My point with Edo Tensei in versus debates is that it usually involves summoning people far more powerful than the summoner and so the debate isn't about the summoner, it's about the summoned.

      Typical examples are Orochimaru or Kabuto summoning Edo Madara or Edo Nagato.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      That wasn't the case, Hashirama was clearly frustrated by madara's attempts at destroying the village. He didn't consider killing him until he realized that madara would keep coming back for more.

      I agree. He realized it moments before he entered Sage Mode, as it was clear just how deep Madara had fallen from everything he'd said at this point.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: It's quite clear that Hashirama had enough chakra to fool madara with clone. Madara on other hand couldn't keep even basic sharingan activated.

      Clones don't take that much energy. Even kakashi, perpetually known for his low chakra, can make clones and yet still use his Chidori. Hashirama also didn't use a jutsu for his finisher but a simple sword stab, so why exactly do you think he had a ton of chakra left?

      Besides, Madara escaped death with Izanagi, so clearly he had chakra left (that he saved for Izanagi). We know that it costs a ton of chakra to cast.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Nature energy doesn't exist for shits n giggles. It's real energy that exists in the world, and serves a real function. Ranging from the heat and work stored in air, heat stored in the earth, work stored in the flow of water, energy embedded in light. Without that energy, the world would be a cold dead rock. Emphasis on cold.
      Well Nature energy is available for shits n giggles. All that energy you are talking about is just solar energy. Nature energy is available for anyone to manipulate. Only those whose body can manipulate it can use it. (Sunlight is available for every one but only few organisms can use it. Rest depend on those who can use it.)

      Thekillman wrote:

      Sage Mode steals that energy to use it for your own gain, just as Sharingan can steal another's power, either figuratively via Jutsu or literally via Genjutsu. We can go 20 rounds about what is morally worse or whatever, but Sage Mode is by it's very definition not one's own power, it's literally, completely and without ambiguity external power.

      SM isn't stealing power. If madara wants he can use NE to no one is stopping him. Also Madara's MS manipulates "Local Time" and on your very basis than he shouldn't be allowed to use his dojutsu. Time is again Afterall limited commodity just like energy..

      Thekillman wrote: Edo Tensei doesn't really require subjugation though. But that's not my point when people use Edo Tensei in fights. My point with Edo Tensei in versus debates is that it usually involves summoning people far more powerful than the summoner and so the debate isn't about the summoner, it's about the summoned.

      Typical examples are Orochimaru or Kabuto summoning Edo Madara or Edo Nagato.
      Typical example of another such summon Kurama. Has similar problems. It's chakra enhances a lot has too much brute force, tailed Beast bomb etc.

      Thekillman wrote: Clones don't take that much energy. Even kakashi, perpetually known for his low chakra, can make clones and yet still use his Chidori. Hashirama also didn't use a jutsu for his finisher but a simple sword stab, so why exactly do you think he had a ton of chakra left?

      Besides, Madara escaped death with Izanagi, so clearly he had chakra left (that he saved for Izanagi). We know that it costs a ton of chakra to cast.

      Well for starters Madara didn't use Izanagi to escape death. He had taught his eye like Itachi taught sasuke's eye amaterasu outside the time. So Madara did actually die before that izanagi activated.
      Perhaps you are right about chakra stuff but when madara was boasting about how he was still standing, From Hashirama's tone it felt like he still didn't want to kill him. Before he forces himself to kill madara later..

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Nature energy is available for anyone to manipulate.

      So is the power of Biju, provided you have the skills and jutsu to tap into that.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      SM isn't stealing power.

      It's not power you normally possess. By it's definition it's external power. Subjugating others for your gain is also external power. How and why is semantics, all that matters is that Madara using Kurama is every bit as legit and every bit as much his power as Sage Mode is for Hashirama. It's external power either way, that requires jutsu and skill to master, either way. It was within Madara's power to subjugate Kurama and it was within Hashirama's power to gather nature energy. Power is power.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Typical example of another such summon Kurama. Has similar problems. It's chakra enhances a lot has too much brute force, tailed Beast bomb etc.

      Not with Madara, it's not. Madara used him to counter Hashirama's Sage mode. After that, they fought normally again.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Well for starters Madara didn't use Izanagi to escape death. He had taught his eye like Itachi taught sasuke's eye amaterasu outside the time.
      i have no idea what you're trying to say here. Madara used Izanagi to escape death. The longest time anyone held it was 5 minutes, and that was Obito with his various mods. So whatever happened exactly, in the final moments of their fight Madara must have had to activate it. Hence, the chakra argument doesn't work.

      It doesn't matter what hashirama wanted. Of course he didn't want to kill his old friend. Yet it was clear that Madara was beyond reason, and it didn't require more than the initial exchange of words for hashirama to realize this. He had no choice in this, and only by fighting with the intent to kill could he match Madara.

      After a brief exchange of swords, hashirama was forced into Sage Mode and had to cast the most powerful jutsu he knew, the True: several thousand hands. if that's not being serious, if that's not being dedicated to killing Madara, i don't know what is.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Nature energy is available for anyone to manipulate.

      So is the power of Biju, provided you have the skills and jutsu to tap into that.
      No its not. Not everyone has access to Biju. Only those who can summon or are jinchuriki can use it. Everyone has access to nature energy provided they can manipulate it. IT's not like Hashirama is hoarding others from the use.

      Thekillman wrote:

      It's not power you normally possess. By it's definition it's external power. Subjugating others for your gain is also external power. How and why is semantics, all that matters is that Madara using Kurama is every bit as legit and every bit as much his power as Sage Mode is for Hashirama. It's external power either way, that requires jutsu and skill to master, either way. It was within Madara's power to subjugate Kurama and it was within Hashirama's power to gather nature energy. Power is power.
      I will repeat myself SM isn't stealing powers. its use of environment to your own advantage. If that was the case than utilizing the battle field would be external power. It's a common factor on battle field which anyone can access to. NE doesn't has any favorites or personals.

      Thekillman wrote:

      Not with Madara, it's not. Madara used him to counter Hashirama's Sage mode. After that, they fought normally again.
      The ends don't justify the means. Scenarios are completely same. For starters Hashirama didn't enter the SM mode when they were fighting. Only when Hashirama realized the beast posed threat to village that he went to SM.

      Thekillman wrote: i have no idea what you're trying to say here. Madara used Izanagi to escape death. The longest time anyone held it was 5 minutes, and that was Obito with his various mods. So whatever happened exactly, in the final moments of their fight Madara must have had to activate it. Hence, the chakra argument doesn't work.

      Exactly my point. Madara didn't had chakra to use it. The best way to explain that Izanagi would be to say that he set it up like time bomb. And trigger for that bomb was his death.

      Thekillman wrote: After a brief exchange of swords, hashirama was forced into Sage Mode and had to cast the most powerful jutsu he knew, the True: several thousand hands. if that's not being serious, if that's not being dedicated to killing Madara, i don't know what is.

      When beast's attack went across the shore and threatened the village only than Hashirama went into SM. Using hostage to fight isn't really a good idea. And two a simple reason why we know that Hashirama didn't use full power is from his performance in 4th Great ninja war.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: its use of environment to your own advantage. If that was the case than utilizing the battle field would be external power.

      But it is? A water-release user would be stronger near water, which is power they innately don't have. Hence, using your environment is external power. Arguing like that just leads to an endless cycle of if's and but's, hence the Chunin Exam Rules: If it's within your power to use it, it's fair game.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: The ends don't justify the means.(...)

      For starters Hashirama didn't enter the SM mode when they were fighting.

      I don't see what this is supposed to mean. Madara didn't summon Kurama instantly, they both started purely with weapons.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Exactly my point. Madara didn't had chakra to use it. The best way to explain that Izanagi would be to say that he set it up like time bomb. And trigger for that bomb was his death.

      What? That's not how Izanagi works, not at all. For madara to survive he must've started the technique before the final slash. For that technique to work, he needed a ton of chakra. The longest Izanagi was held was 5 minutes by Obito. So, somewhere 5 minutes before he died, Madara must've activated Izanagi. He didn't trigger the second half (the reversal of all damage) until several days or weeks later, but that's not relevant. What's relevant is that in the end, they both had enough chakra for a final technique, and Madara demonstrably had more left than Hashirama. Hashirama spent it on a Wood Clone, and Madara spent it on Izanagi.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      When beast's attack went across the shore and threatened the village only than Hashirama went into SM.

      This is anime-only. As far as i can tell, no such thing happened in the Manga. The "One who know Everything"/"Madara and Hashirama 1 &2" sequence is a lot shorter in the Manga, and features Hashirama going sage mode pretty much instantly against Majestic Kurama.

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    • @NamikazeNaruto, NE isn't available for anyone. Only those with huge levels of chakra can even try to manipulate it. Just like only those who made a summoning pact with Kurama can wield Kurama. One of the reasons Kurama hated humans was because he kept being used as a tool. A chakra weapon. Nature Energy and Kurama are both external sources. In fact, Kurama is just big mass of Nature Energy anyways, seeing as he's just a split from the Juubi.

      @Killman, I believe Madara set his Izanagi with a Transcription Seal or similar. Meaning, he loaded the technique beforehand, with the necessary chakra (meaning he could regenerate while the seal kept the technique and chakra). It was set to negate his death. Similar to Itachi setting Sasuke's eye to use Amaterasu when it saw Obito's Sharingan; Sasuke was out of chakra. So the chakra needed was given by Itachi.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: It was set to negate his death.

      Madara bit off a piece of Hashirama's flesh. If he set his state before the fight entirely, he would likely not be reformed with that flesh (since it's not part of the Izanagi).

      My other issue is that it seems uncharacteristic of Madara to plan his demise that far ahead. He was doing everything in his power to win, and boasts to Hashirama that he won't just die like that. Even Black Zetsu seemed surprised he lost. Why would he preemptively sacrifice an eye? Seems to me that Madara realized things were getting too risky and used Izanagi to escape the fight with his plan intact.

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    • I mean, better to have set it amd not need it than need it and not set it. Dying is always a possibility especially during the Warring States era. This mentality is one Madara would have had and would have had a back up plan when fighting against anyone who could fight on his level.

      There really isnt a downside for having it set. If he disnt die, cool. If he did die, he wouldnt stay that way.

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    • LegionZero wrote: There really isnt a downside for having it set.

      He'd lose an eye? I don't think you can extend Transcripted jutsu indefinitely. Both uses so far have shown to be activated within days. I doubt he just could go on and on with extending the Transcript.

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    • Well you weigh out the pros and cons of it all there is no downside. Lose 1 eye or stay dead. Id pick losing an eye if it means i come back to life.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Well you weigh out the pros and cons of it all there is no downside.

      His eye was the most powerful asset he had. he also intended to obtain the Rinnegan and so sacrificing eyesight would be a major bad deal. He couldn't have known beforehand that the Rinnegan would restore his sight.

      It seems to me that Izanagi was a last-moment effort to fulfill his plan. It makes no sense to me that he would set Izanagi so early since he could've used the eye and power better in battle. He also seemed confident in winning, so i don't find it logical that he'd plan to fail.

      It rather seems to me that as Madara bit off the piece of flesh somewhere in the last phase of their fight, he set Izanagi so that even if he'd lose at that point, he'd win. Since at that point it was't clear who'd win, and in the end the deciding slash was made because of a single clone.

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    • @Thekillman, he wouldn't lose the eye unless he died, so there was no downside. He'd go about his day all normal like, go battle like normal, it's just that he had a technique sealed in his eye. That would only go off if he died. So he'd only lose an eye if he died. If he didn't die, the technique wouldn't go off at all. Just like if Sasuke never saw Obito's Sharingan, Itachi's eye never would have manifested to fire Amaterasu at him.

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    • @Killman
      How do you know that single clone requires less chakra? Afterall Danzo lost control of his arms due to lack of chakra because he created a giant tree? It was wooden clone Afterall.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: @Thekillman, he wouldn't lose the eye unless he died, so there was no downside

      Danzo couldn't maintain Izanagi for longer than a minute or an eye would forcibly be shut. What makes you think Madara could maintain it indefinitely? Besides, his Izanagi didn't trigger on death, it triggered days later to restore him to life.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: How do you know that single clone requires less chakra?

      Because Danzo lost enough chakra on each use that it was noticeable to Karin. On the other hand, even Kakashi has been shown making clones, a guy noted for his (relatively) low chakra. Evidently clones don't cost that much chakra to make. Sure they get half your chakra, but they can actually use that chakra.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Because Danzo lost enough chakra on each use that it was noticeable to Karin. On the other hand, even Kakashi has been shown making clones, a guy noted for his (relatively) low chakra. Evidently clones don't cost that much chakra to make. Sure they get half your chakra, but they can actually use that chakra.

      Well In that very fight when Danzo creates just single wood tree (mind you which is much smaller than Hashirama or Madara's use) His chakra pummels much more than any Izanagi. Wood release isn't govern by the same rules as normal elemental release. For all we know that wood clone would have cost considerable chakra.
      @Killman And @Asianreaper
      When I talked about Nature energy I believe I got sidetracked. Let me put it this way, Given a pond Water release would be stronger or Rocky Terrain Earth Release would be stronger. But what you are essentially forgetting regardless of choice of venue NE will always be part of environment just like Air or other vital things. So strictly one can use provided they can manipulate it. Also the only reason why Naruto was stopped from using SM in chunin exam was to level the playing field especially when he was fighting Genins. Had Sasuke been fighting them his MS would have been banned to.

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    • @TheKillman, Madara isn't maintaining Izanagi at all. Izanagi was only set to activate if and when Madara died. It's not like Izanagi was always active while Madara was doing whatever. He sealed it in his eye to activate when certain requirements were set. In this case, his certain requirements were his death + a few days or so.

      Just like when Itachi sealed Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye, it didn't activate until the requirements were met.

      Madara didn't maintain anything, all he did was seal a jutsu in his eye. The jutsu activated only after he died. So he only lost his eye once he died.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Madara didn't maintain anything, all he did was seal a jutsu in his eye. The jutsu activated only after he died. So he only lost his eye once he died.

      Except the jutsu must be set first. Danzo couldn't die while Izanagi was active, but once deactivated he was vulnerable. Only during the period of initiation until triggering was he invulnerable. Madara must've set a point first and triggered the restoration later, else it wouldn't work. And so his Izanagi must've been triggered based on time and not based on his death. Meaning that the moment he sealed it, he sealed the fate of his eye.

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    • @TheKillman, the jutsu was set, but not activated. The drawbacks only occur after the jutsu has activated and its effects have taken place.

      Madara sealed the jutsu. The requirements was that he had to die, and the seal was set so it would activate only a certain amount of time after his death. The Izanagi itself was simply making the Madara who died a permanent Kage Bunshin, instead of the real one.

      The only way the jutsu would ever activate and give any drawbacks is if Madara died.

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