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  • Is it even possible? I understand that ALL life on the entire planet is connected to the Shinju after the Infinite Tsukuyomi is cast (we see cats and a dog being put under the genjutsu and Akamaru being cocooned by the Shinju's roots) but can animals become White Zetsu? Like whales, elephants, fish, bears, insects, squirrels...you get the point. It also seems a bit excessive for Kaguya to create White Zetsu from animals if she were trying to create an army to fight against Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

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    • While i can't think of a legitimate reason why it would be impossible, thematically it doesn't really seem to fit.

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    • Most likely just humans do, while other creatures stay cocooned and live.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Most likely just humans do, while other creatures stay cocooned and live.

      I'd imagine that anything weaker than a human would basically be compost eventually.

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    • Unless the animals have chakra, they seem to be exempt from becoming White Zetsus.

      But there is another thing that bothers me. What about pregnant women? What happens to the babies when their mothers become White Zetsus?

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    • It's not a matter or chakra. The humans who were turned into Zetsu by Kaguya also didn't posses chakra, since humans only obtained chakra after Hagormo spread it during his journey.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: It's not a matter or chakra. The humans who were turned into Zetsu by Kaguya also didn't posses chakra, since humans only obtained chakra after Hagormo spread it during his journey.

      This is the part where the series sucked, but:

      Technically everyone has all the ingredients for chakra, and has had it all along. Hagoromo just gave people some form of spiritual enlightenment that allowed them to bind their mental and physical energy into actual chakra. Humans, animals etc all have chakra, they just can't necessarily mold it.

      NoMoreVillains wrote: But there is another thing that bothers me. What about pregnant women? What happens to the babies when their mothers become White Zetsus?

      Quite frankly, i think they die. We've seen the Shinju be fairly aggressive with reclaiming chakra, i don't think children (or small animals) would be strong enough to resist IT's effects and be turned Zetsu. I think they'd just eventually die and become plant food.

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    • You can't fabricate a better reality for an infant who hasn't experienced reality in the first place.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: You can't fabricate a better reality for an infant who hasn't experienced reality in the first place.

      it's a good point for the IT part, but the God: Nativity of a world of trees part would still suck out their chakra and personality.

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    • No, humans nor other creatures had chakra before Hagoromo spread it. Kaguya was the very first person on planet Earth, well, the Narutoverse equivalent, to have obtained chakra. By the time Kaguya used Infinite Tsukuyomi, Hagoromo most likely already had spread chakra.

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    • How widespread was Kaguya's IT in the first place?

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    • Well, at least according to the anime, i guess the first IT was only local so to speak? I mean it probably happened only to the people from that particular land, but that's mostly based on the anime.

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    • Well, it must've been local anyway, especially since Hagoromo mentioned that Kaguya used her Byakugan to extend its range, which means that Kaguya couldn't affect the whole world without reflecting the genjutsu from the Moon, something that was yet to be created.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Well, at least according to the anime, i guess the first IT was only local so to speak? I mean it probably happened only to the people from that particular land, but that's mostly based on the anime.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, it must've been local anyway, especially since Hagoromo mentioned that Kaguya used her Byakugan to extend its range, which means that Kaguya couldn't affect the whole world without reflecting the genjutsu from the Moon, something that was yet to be created.

      That does explain the few White Zetsus that were around before the war

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    • So, pretty much Kaguya's army must've been kind of low on man power. I guess couple thousands White Zetsu at best? That's not very much power, considering that White Zetsu were pretty wack. Could it be more than that?

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    • Well, there's also a possibility of Kaguya being able to use the White Zetsu in more powerful fashion than Madara/Obito did. Even the 10,000 army of Obito was pretty weak in terms of battle power, their main purpose was their transformation ability which made them perfect for infiltration and assignation.

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, there's also a possibility of Kaguya being able to use the White Zetsu in more powerful fashion than Madara/Obito did.

      I don't think so. Spiral Zetsu uses an external source for strength (Gedo statue and Yamato). Without an external source, he would be just as weak as any other White Zetsu. Heck, Black Zetsu (Kaguya's freaking will incarnate) wasn't that strong

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    • I always assumed that Kaguya would've used the Zetsus in a direct battle. Meaning that Momoshiki and Kinshiki would literally battle her and the army at once. I doubt that Kaguya would've used them for infiltration purpose, mainly because she was the one expecting an invasion, not the other way around. Even if the Zetsus would've been stronger than Obito's, against somebody like Kinshiki they would've been fodder, even thousands of them.

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    • She probably had a way to buff them, infuse them with her chakra, to make them transform into weaker clones of her, or have them connected to the Shinju, or both.

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    • Given the fact that White Zetsus can absorb people's chakra, that might be a two-fold strategy. The White Zetsus would absorb chakra and then give it to Kaguya, willingly or not.

      Thekillman wrote:

      Vladosaurus wrote: It's not a matter or chakra. The humans who were turned into Zetsu by Kaguya also didn't posses chakra, since humans only obtained chakra after Hagormo spread it during his journey.

      This is the part where the series sucked, but:

      Technically everyone has all the ingredients for chakra, and has had it all along. Hagoromo just gave people some form of spiritual enlightenment that allowed them to bind their mental and physical energy into actual chakra. Humans, animals etc all have chakra, they just can't necessarily mold it.

      NoMoreVillains wrote: But there is another thing that bothers me. What about pregnant women? What happens to the babies when their mothers become White Zetsus?

      Quite frankly, i think they die. We've seen the Shinju be fairly aggressive with reclaiming chakra, i don't think children (or small animals) would be strong enough to resist IT's effects and be turned Zetsu. I think they'd just eventually die and become plant food.

      I would have thought that the infants still in the bellies of pregnant women would just become chakra and disappear forever.

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    • Elveonora wrote: She probably had a way to buff them, infuse them with her chakra, to make them transform into weaker clones of her, or have them connected to the Shinju, or both.

      Considering the fact that Madara infused the White Zetsus with Hashirama's DNA, it would make sense that she would do the same with the next batch created from Naruto's friends, allies, acquaintances and loved ones.

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    • Elveonora wrote: No, humans nor other creatures had chakra before Hagoromo spread it. Kaguya was the very first person on planet Earth, well, the Narutoverse equivalent, to have obtained chakra. By the time Kaguya used Infinite Tsukuyomi, Hagoromo most likely already had spread chakra.

      they already had the physical and spiritual energy. Kaguya was the first person on naruto's world to be able to mold her physical and spiritual energies together to create Chakra but absolutely every life form already had the physical and spiritual energy. it wouldn't make sense if they didn't have said energy

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: No, humans nor other creatures had chakra before Hagoromo spread it. Kaguya was the very first person on planet Earth, well, the Narutoverse equivalent, to have obtained chakra. By the time Kaguya used Infinite Tsukuyomi, Hagoromo most likely already had spread chakra.

      they already had the physical and spiritual energy. Kaguya was the first person on naruto's world to be able to mold her physical and spiritual energies together to create Chakra but absolutely every life form already had the physical and spiritual energy. it wouldn't make sense if they didn't have said energy

      And at that point, she would have also have created the White Zetsu Army. Seems pointless.

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    • Jesus, shut up already Actionmanrandell. You keep repeating the same thing even though it's not true.

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    • Wait, if kaguya was the first one with chakra on Earth and Hag and Hamura being the second and third, then what in the world did that old toad sage had? Just Natural energy or chakra? I mean he was older than Hag and Hamura. So?...

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    • He wasn't older than them, only in non-canon anime filler. All humans and other creatures got chakra from Hagoromo.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote: Wait, if kaguya was the first one with chakra on Earth and Hag and Hamura being the second and third, then what in the world did that old toad sage had? Just Natural energy or chakra? I mean he was older than Hag and Hamura. So?...

      As far as we know, it's not possible to use pure nature energy in such jutsu. So, it's just the filler being weird. As far as the Manga is concerned, everyone either has chakra given by Hagoromo, or as a descendant of Hagoromo and/or Hamura.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      BlazeRelease wrote: Wait, if kaguya was the first one with chakra on Earth and Hag and Hamura being the second and third, then what in the world did that old toad sage had? Just Natural energy or chakra? I mean he was older than Hag and Hamura. So?...

      As far as we know, it's not possible to use pure nature energy in such jutsu. So, it's just the filler being weird. As far as the Manga is concerned, everyone either has chakra given by Hagoromo, or as a descendant of Hagoromo and/or Hamura.

      The frog used nature energy, not chakra.

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    • So the frogs don't have chakra?

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    • The God Tree probably converts the animals into White Zetsus. I mean, the reason why the White Zetsus look human could be due to Hashi's DNA right? So the "original" White Zetsus could be a completely different looking thing.

      Elveonora wrote: She probably had a way to buff them, infuse them with her chakra, to make them transform into weaker clones of her, or have them connected to the Shinju, or both.

      Or even combine all the White Zetsus into a giant one since they can fuse together, if that does anything.

      NoMoreVillains wrote: The frog used nature energy, not chakra.

      They use Natural Energy in conjunction with chakra; i.e. Sage Chakra. It's not possible to generate jutsus with just pure Natural Energy.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: So the frogs don't have chakra?

      Most, if not all, living things have chakra. So yes, they do have chakra.

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    • Georgio722 wrote: The God Tree probably converts the animals into White Zetsus. I mean, the reason why the White Zetsus look human could be due to Hashi's DNA right? So the "original" White Zetsus could be a completely different looking thing.

      Some of the things in Madara's lair didn't seem wholly human, and i'd argue that most Zetsu barely seemed human. So i think that Zetsu can exist as all sorts of beings, it's just that Black Zetsu took out humanoids. And as you said, they have hashicells, so they aren't really full Zetsus.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: So the frogs don't have chakra?

      They do, all living creatures on Narutoverse's Earth do, I believe this was mentioned in canonical source somewhere. But they got it from Hagoromo. Hagoromo (possibly with Hamura too and/or followers) spread chakra to humans and animals and descendants of those then were naturally born with chakra.

      For the question if it's possible to use techniques with natural energy alone, in all actuality, yes, I believe there has been a technique that according to databook uses nothing but pure natural energy, although not sure which one it was.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I believe there has been a technique that according to databook uses nothing but pure natural energy, although not sure which one it was.

      Frog Kata uses natural energy. But that's not the point, the point is that nature energy has never been shown to use elemental transformations (Or pure elements)

      Actionmanrandell wrote: they already had the physical and spiritual energy. Kaguya was the first person on naruto's world to be able to mold her physical and spiritual energies together to create Chakra but absolutely every life form already had the physical and spiritual energy. it wouldn't make sense if they didn't have said energy

      Actually, this is where chakra becomes vague (thanks, inconsistent terminology use!).

      According to Madara(N665), Hagoromo spread chakra to all people in order to connect people's spiritual energy. But, rather than do this people used it to mold their inner spiritual and physical energy to form chakra.

      hence, 1: chakra from the Fruit is not like chakra that people already had and 2: people indeed had these energies before.

      It's unclear whether this first chakra is Six Paths chakra, or something else. I'm inclined to say it's something else.

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    • Nah, I doubt they had any physical and spiritual energies prior.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Nah, I doubt they had any physical and spiritual energies prior.

      Well sadly the nature of chakra is probably one of the vaguest parts of the series.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Nah, I doubt they had any physical and spiritual energies prior.

      Well sadly the nature of chakra is probably one of the vaguest parts of the series.

      Yet, ironically, Chakra is a very big element/concept/theme in the story. If anything, the whole Chakra thing comes only second to Ninjas as the main story element. Yet as you said, it is not properly explained. Or atleast not properly handled.

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    • I'm sure before Boruto is over, we are gonna get explanation for where God Trees come from, but as things are right now, they seem to be related to the Otsutsuki.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I'm sure before Boruto is over, we are gonna get explanation for where God Trees come from, but as things are right now, they seem to be related to the Otsutsuki.

      But it's not the trees, i get how the Shinju work. I just don't understand what exactly the final deal on Chakra is. Like, what is six paths chakra then exactly? What are biju made of, other than chakra, that makes them proper sentient beings that can produce more chakra? It's not just a soul - minato ripped out the soul from Kurama yet his other half remained biju-like, so there must be some non-soul component too. But why, and what is this component?

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: I'm sure before Boruto is over, we are gonna get explanation for where God Trees come from, but as things are right now, they seem to be related to the Otsutsuki.

      But it's not the trees, i get how the Shinju work. I just don't understand what exactly the final deal on Chakra is. Like, what is six paths chakra then exactly? What are biju made of, other than chakra, that makes them proper sentient beings that can produce more chakra? It's not just a soul - minato ripped out the soul from Kurama yet his other half remained biju-like, so there must be some non-soul component too. But why, and what is this component?

      I thought the Bijuu were the fragments of the Ten Tailed Beast given life.

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    • Kind of getting off topic and into the realm of theory, but...

      Thekillman wrote: Like, what is six paths chakra then exactly?

      If we're basing on the theme of senjutsu being parallel to dojutsu, then like Sage Chakra, Six Paths Chakra could be made up of 3 types of energy, with the obvious Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy plus a third unknown energy that could have originated from the Otsutsuki.

      Thekillman wrote: What are biju made of, other than chakra, that makes them proper sentient beings that can produce more chakra?

      Didn't Hagoromo create an organic body and soul for them to reside in?

      Thekillman wrote: It's not just a soul - minato ripped out the soul from Kurama yet his other half remained biju-like, so there must be some non-soul component too.

      I would presume he split the soul in half as well.

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    • Georgio722 wrote: Kind of getting off topic and into the realm of theory, but...

      Thekillman wrote: Like, what is six paths chakra then exactly?

      If we're basing on the theme of senjutsu being parallel to dojutsu, then like Sage Chakra, Six Paths Chakra could be made up of 3 types of energy, with the obvious Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy plus a third unknown energy that could have originated from the Otsutsuki.

      Thekillman wrote: What are biju made of, other than chakra, that makes them proper sentient beings that can produce more chakra?

      Didn't Hagoromo create an organic body and soul for them to reside in?

      Thekillman wrote: It's not just a soul - minato ripped out the soul from Kurama yet his other half remained biju-like, so there must be some non-soul component too.

      I would presume he split the soul in half as well.

      So of the three types of energy, one of them originated from the Chakra Fruit?

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    • NoMoreVillains wrote: So of the three types of energy, one of them originated from the Chakra Fruit?

      I mean, the God Tree, and therefore the Chakra Fruit didn't really originate from the Otsutsuki as far as we know, so probably not. I'm leaning towards being originated from the clan member themselves since they do have "special powers" to begin with.

      But yeah, we're kinda off topic. If we have anything more to add to it, starting a different thread would be a good idea.

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    • Oh yeah.

      On the subject, how many years do you guys think it takes for a person, no matter the age or gender, to become a shell of their former selves before becoming White Zetsu?

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    • NoMoreVillains wrote: On the subject, how many years do you guys think it takes for a person, no matter the age or gender, to become a shell of their former selves before becoming White Zetsu?

      Presumably years or decades. The erasing of the self would probably be the easiest aspect since the genjutsu could just erode that away, but it's hard to judge how long the physical transformation would happen.

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    • Thekillman wrote: But it's not the trees, i get how the Shinju work. I just don't understand what exactly the final deal on Chakra is. Like, what is six paths chakra then exactly? What are biju made of, other than chakra, that makes them proper sentient beings that can produce more chakra? It's not just a soul - minato ripped out the soul from Kurama yet his other half remained biju-like, so there must be some non-soul component too. But why, and what is this component?

      Some people believe that the Tailed Beasts are nothing but tangible conscious masses of chakra. I disagree with this notion, in my opinion their physical shells are actual living flesh, but that's another topic.

      Yeah, I would say the Tailed Beasts each have an actual physical living body + a fragment of the Ten-Tails' chakra + soul.

      What Minato with Death Reaper did to Kurama isn't that strange. For example Orochimaru has been split into many parts as well. Part of him was in Anko, the main part that was missing arms got sealed in Totsuka Blade, then the Anko part regained the main part's arms? So yeah... Seems like Orochimaru exists more than once as well and each copy is just as real, no different from Kurama.

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    • While I am not sure about the White Zetsu being made from animals I do believe that the Original Zetsu are made of animals due to my theory that the mini ten-tails are the original form of the Zetsu and some of them have animal traits.

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    • Tasuxeda wrote: While I am not sure about the White Zetsu being made from animals I do believe that the Original Zetsu are made of animals due to my theory that the mini ten-tails are the original form of the Zetsu and some of them have animal traits.

      That would make sense. Some of the original White Zetsu that were with Obito while he was healing under Madara's care didn't even have human-like features to them. Some of them were even just mindless drones.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      NoMoreVillains wrote: On the subject, how many years do you guys think it takes for a person, no matter the age or gender, to become a shell of their former selves before becoming White Zetsu?

      Presumably years or decades. The erasing of the self would probably be the easiest aspect since the genjutsu could just erode that away, but it's hard to judge how long the physical transformation would happen.

      I thought the genjutsu was just a distraction to serve as their happy places. The physical transformation seemed to involve the cocoon becoming a second skin (you can see the outline of facial features on the cocoons in the flash back while Black Zetsu describes what the White Zetsus are) before peeling away to reveal the White Zetsus underneath.

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    • NoMoreVillains wrote: I thought the genjutsu was just a distraction to serve as their happy places.

      We don't know what causes the erosion of individuality, but the genjutsu itself makes sense. It was powerful enough to convince people of their ideal dreams and nobody seemed to question it for even a moment, so obviously it's overriding power is great. Which means it could be powerful enough that continuous exposure leaves one mindless.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      NoMoreVillains wrote: I thought the genjutsu was just a distraction to serve as their happy places.

      We don't know what causes the erosion of individuality, but the genjutsu itself makes sense. It was powerful enough to convince people of their ideal dreams and nobody seemed to question it for even a moment, so obviously it's overriding power is great. Which means it could be powerful enough that continuous exposure leaves one mindless.

      And without their memories? It did say that their personalities would be erased, but not their memories. Then again, with their individuality gone, their memories wouldn't mean anything anymore.

      Actually, only Tenten was somehow able to know the world she was in was a genjutsu, but she unwillingly chose to stay anyway.

      I can probably guess that the animals would just be let go since the humans are what become White Zetsus, not animals.

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    • NoMoreVillains wrote: And without their memories? It did say that their personalities would be erased, but not their memories. Then again, with their individuality gone, their memories wouldn't mean anything anymore.

      It didn't specify that they would keep their memories. But people caught in IT were unaware of it, so clearly it can also alter memory. Tenten only was aware of it in the filler. In the manga, all the people caught are seem instantly accepting their ideal world.

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    • Good point. The illusion could alter memory as well. Is it sort of like in the Batman Beyond episode where the kids use virtual realities as a form of a drug that gradually reduces them to a comatose state?

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