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  • This is a battle between the Senju Sage Mode and the other Sage Modes, so the battle starts off with all of them already in Sage Mode.

    Hashirama can use everything that he knows, which includes the Sage Art: Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands of course. Naruto/Minato cannot use Kurama's chakra, but Naruto does have 2 clones at the ready for Sage Mode. Summoning is restricted, with the exception of the Two Great Sage Toads because Jiraiya.

    They will have all their knowledge/abilities during the war (Jiraiya as of the battle with Pain), but nobody is an edo, so they can all be killed. The battlefield is also where the war is happening, excluding the Shinju and whatnots.

    I want to make it so that Hashirama's size balances out with the team's quantity. I have a feeling that Hashi can wipe out the team by fisting, but I'm not sure because the team is extremely strong, and they also have 2 sound based genjutsus in their arsenal, assuming the battle noises aren't loud enough to cover it.

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    • I am thinking that hashirama said something like naruto with his 9 tail chakra might have more than him(dont quote me i might be wrong) but if u take out the ninetails chakra away then i guess there is quite a disadvantage even in base form.

      People always thought hashirama was slow if you compare him against minato since he is known for his speed but if you think about it when madara showcase his speed while taking out the shinobi alliance that that was the speed hashirama is dealing in his base form. In hashirama base form with just his wood golem he was fighting on par with madara and the ninetails i do believe hashirama have some powerful jutsu dealing against single opponent which was not shown because ppl always use Sage Art: Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands as his most powerful jutsu in a while is but that is just going up against a big target. We have yet to see the full arsenal of hashirama.

      For Naruto, Kabuto, Minato, and Jiraiya we dont need more explanation since they have more screentime so i think the match will be really close depending on if its a death match or just sparring.

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    • @Yuoh03 Actually, he said that Naruto with Kurama (half) had almost as much chakra as him. So Hashirama had more than him.

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    • I think Hashirama takes this, granted it's gonna be a close fight. I mean, Minato's Sage Mode is barely a factor here considering he can't maintain it for long. However, even in base mode, his battle tactic of scattering FTG kunai in and out the battlefield would prove useful if he could connect his chakra with his other teammates. Kabuto is also at it's best in that cave of his. He's definitely gonna be useful in this fight, but again, not enough to beat Hashirama. The guy can turn an entire battlefield into a gas chamber, release a genjutsu that makes everything pitch black - plus his SM reflexes and spatial awareness are superior to the Toad Sage's as confirmed by Madara practically owning the shit out of Sasuke and Tobirama without eyes.

      Couple that with his insane chakra reserves and his Thousand Armed-Murder and Hashirama takes this.

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    • Is Naruto teen or hokage

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    • Anime2lover wrote: Is Naruto teen or hokage

      Naruto is the one from the war, so teen.

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    • Did they say what type of sage mode hashirama have? Otherwise judging by the looks from his jutsu it seems alot like he either learn it from some wise sage or he learn it himself...his jutsu are that of buddha so maybe something similar to guatama buddha or etc...

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    • If Naruto, Jiraiya and Kabuto try to create an opening, maybe only MAYBE Minato can strike

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    • Hashirama has crazy regeneration, and the toughest thing Jiraya or Minato could hit him with would be the rasengan, which most likely won't do the job. Their best bet would be for Naruto to attempt to land a rasenshuriken on him, and hope his chakra network gets cut out.

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    • nope. hashi wins. hashi's base power is equal to that of kurama's. had u given Naruto and minato bijuu mode, then they would have equaled full power kurama. then kabuto and jiraya (in sm) could've equaled madara's ems power. all this together would've equaled the form that madara used to fight against sm hashi.

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    • Kabuto takes this single handedly. It's known fact that kabuto can restrict Hashirama's cell vitality allowing anyone of the other SM user to give finishing blow. Kabuto's Genjutsu(via Tayuya) use by itself should give him enough chance to give finishing blow. Hashirama loses...........

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    • wait... what? what can kabuto do? im confused...

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    • Remember how Orochimaru used his bite to restrict Tobi? He learnt all that from Kabuto's experimentation.
      Even if we ignore that Kabuto could easily use Tayuya's genjutsu and Stab every inch of Hashirama's body with Kimimaro's bones.

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    • lol so orochi learned cursed sealing jutsus by watching kabuto? I think that Narutoverse, me included, believe not... and how will sais bones stab something that has tanked much, much, much, much worse?

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: lol so orochi learned cursed sealing jutsus by watching kabuto?

      Not by watching. But it's evident that he recruited Kabuto for his medical ninjutsu and knowledge. They worked together a lot. It's likely that Kabuto knows pretty much everything Orochimaru knows. And we already saw that Kabuto injected himself with Orochimaru's cells and so can use all his abilities, plus that of the Sound Five.

      Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: wait... what? what can kabuto do? im confused...

      Use his flashbang on Hashirama? Then use a curse seal on him, restrict his movements with Shikotsumyaku and animating the world around them to attack him?

      Naruto can still pepper Hashirama with Rasenshuriken while Minato can use the smallest of openings to strike hard and fast. Jiraiya can use his toad jutsu to bind or capture Hashirama. He and Naruto can summon toads to keep them safe in the fight, while pressuring Hashirama.

      Also keep in mind that Minato didn't need to defeat the Juubi to strike at Obito: if he has a mark on Hashirama, then he can strike Hashirama. Past his golems, buddha statue, whatever. Minato could also barrier-seal any ninjutsu thrown at him and teleport it away, or use the same trick to deliver earlier mentioned flashbang or Rasenshuriken to his face.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: lol so orochi learned cursed sealing jutsus by watching kabuto? I think that Narutoverse, me included, believe not... and how will sais bones stab something that has tanked much, much, much, much worse?

      When did sai had bones?
      As much as Hashirama has amazing regeneration he is nothing if he is incapable of making hand signs in the genjutsu. Without a comrade and prep time he will have tough time escaping tayuya's genjutsu. I think Kabuto alone should give him tough enough fight......

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    • Lol as far as i know, sai always had bones. But that not what i meant to say. Ot was supposed to say 'said'

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    • I guess the main thing now is we dont know wjat hashirama's sage mode can do, i would say when he was created the mangaka had in mind that he wanted to make a ninja undefeatable. We srill have not seen much of hashirama's battle and i always have this crazy idea that hashirama's wife taught him lots of technique regarding fuinjutsu and he might have some super crazy way to get rid of the ftg markings.

      Afterall we have seen people beat those technique that should not have been beaten like how itachi broke free from edo tensei's control...and orochimaru using hashirama's own cell to bind the hokage but hashirama himself unbind it with ease...anyway debating like that would just be about everyone own opinion. :)

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    • well, even though u are 75% correct, that doesn't help us much here at all. like, thanks, but unfortunately, not thanks.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: @Yuoh03 Actually, he said that Naruto with Kurama (half) had almost as much chakra as him. So Hashirama had more than him.

      He did not he said that Naruto sharing(Naruto's own) chakra with SA must have same chakra volume as himself second later he got astonished by fact there was Fox chakra also. By the way sharing works Naruto(without Fox) having same chakra volume as Hashirama is given fact.

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    • how was he supposed to know whose chakra was whose? they chakras were merged at the time, so he couldn't say with certainty that said chakra was higher than his. for all we, as in everybody, know, he didn't even know that he was talking bout kurama's chakra as well.

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    • Yuoh03 wrote: I guess the main thing now is we dont know wjat hashirama's sage mode can do, i would say when he was created the mangaka had in mind that he wanted to make a ninja undefeatable.

      According to said mangaka, Minato is the strongest. There are some conditions to his statement and some people that may be stronger by Kishimoto's own words, but Hashirama isn't one of them.

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    • huh? since when? are u talking bout that hiruzen statement, when he was fighting orochi? dude, people said the same thing bout hiruzen himself, in the show. statements are so useless in this manga, its sad.

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    • That's what happens when you write a story (especially a weekly manga), that has a unforeseeable end date. You kinda have the ending generally planned out, and you kinda have the middle planned out, but you don't really have anything solid. Just what you think is going to happen.

      So you introduce this character in the beginning, say he's the strongest, then you decide your story is going somewhere else, and introduce this other guy who is even stronger, retconning what you said and did years ago, and voila, you've got yourself a plot hole inconsistency, probably even without realizing it.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: huh? since when? are u talking bout that hiruzen statement, when he was fighting orochi? dude, people said the same thing bout hiruzen himself, in the show. statements are so useless in this manga, its sad.

      Mashashi kishimoto 2008 interview: (SJ= Shonen Jump, MK=Kishimoto) SJ: While we’re at it… could you please tell us if Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?

      MK: Hmmm, it’s a tricky question. As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest. I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him. As far as living shinobis goes… well, without going into many details I’d have to say no. There’s a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him.

      (Considering that E.g. Rinnegan Madara was Rinne Tensei'd, Obito became Juubi Jinchuriki and kaguya technically was never dead, it seems that statement still stands.)

      Hashirama is strong in many ways, but Minato (and e.g. Tobirama) can use FTG to strike him regardless. They can bypass all that firepower. Plus, fights in the manga rarely occur with two people standing in a field and letting the other power-up endlessly DBZ style. Minato can win the fight before Hashirama has a chance to form Several thousand Hands, and even then it's not a very good jutsu against someone ultra-fast like Minato (who could easily escape the damage).

      Hashirama's main strength is similar to Naruto's: Immense damage projection over a large area. Minato's (and Tobirama's) style is far more along the lines of assassination: high damage in a small, but precisely determinable region. We've seen Kakashi do similar things, e.g. against Kakuzu.

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    • I think you are underrating Hashirama, a lot. You cannot seriously imply that Minato was stronger than Hashirama during their life time. They aren't even in the same category. It's ridiculous, even in this scenario, where is 4 vs 1. EDO Madara took out the 5 kage on his own easily, by using mostly Hashirama's powers.With his biggest asset, the PS, the 5 kage couldn't do jack against him. Hashirama defeated Madara + Kurama. Madara already countered the hiraijin by using Hashirama's own SM. Even if you argue that the 4 SM users are stronger than the 5 kage, they still don't make up the difference. Honestly, Hashirama doesn't even need to enter SM to win this battle.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: how was he supposed to know whose chakra was whose? they chakras were merged at the time, so he couldn't say with certainty that said chakra was higher than his. for all we, as in everybody, know, he didn't even know that he was talking bout kurama's chakra as well.

      Umm what? Hashirama just said - giving chakra to entire SA is same chakra level as himself. Naruto gave his chakra to every shinobi in SA. His chakra was mediator(only Naruto chakra can be mediator) between SA members and Fox chakra - so Naruto by his own chakra alone is comparable to Hashirama.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: I think you are underrating Hashirama, a lot. You cannot seriously imply that Minato was stronger than Hashirama during their life time.

      I think you are misunderstanding my point. Power is meaningless if you can't apply it. the big point about superior speed is that you can strike first, and hurt your opponent before they can do your thing. In the time that Hashirama is forming his True Several Thousand Hands, Minato can jump in and out, rip him away from it and slam a rasengan to his forehead. Hashirama would've been able to commit suicide with a Kunai, so clearly there are limits to his healing. For one, Minato could use one of his seals to restrict Hashi's power. Or just completely cut off his head (something only survived by Hidan). Plus once he's struck, Minato can keep striking again and again. Hashirama was sure fast, yet Minato was clearly faster.

      Minato can win by attacking Hashirama himself and bypassing all the shit he can throw. He doesn't need to match Hashirama in raw power, he just needs to reach Hashirama.

      Look at how massively the real world has changed with increased speed: Tanks outpaced infantry and blitzkrieg tactics allowed the germans to win hard. Then the US used the speed advantage of aircraft to destroy targets from afar. And during the cold war, it was all about missiles, which could strike anywhere in minutes. It doesn't matter if the enemy has bigger armies, or more weapons, if you can strike fast and avoid being hit.

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    • @Thekillman You actually believe that this is the way the battle between them would go? Actually, do you seriously believe that Minato would be the one on the attack? Please...Hashirama doesn't not even need SM to beat him or the other 3, i don't know why you bring it up. And Minato can't just teleport to Hashirama. He either needs a kunai in the right place, or to mark him,which is very unlikely. And even if he manages to somehow land a strike on him, do you actually think that Hashirama could get one shoted? By Minato of all people, who's strongest attacking ninjutsu is a regular rasengan? Hashirama is also very adept in both taijutsu, reflexes and sensing on his own, without SM. Even if Minato reaches him, it's not guaranteed that he would get a hit. On the other hand, Hashirama has powerful attacks so that Minato can literally only run away from. Deep Forrest, the wood dragons, the wood Golem that was on par with Madara's PS? Hashirama also has surrounding wood that was able to take by surprise even Madara, who's tracking is way better than Minato's thanks to his sharingan. Minato can only do so much with teleportation.Hashirama also has Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, which would slow Minato down. Even if he would resist it, he won't be able to get rid of the trees, and will be pressured by the pollen for the entire fight. there are also the wood clones in play, who unlike the shadow clones, won't disappear after a strong hit. Minato can easily get fooled by the clones, since unlike Madara, he cannot distinguish them from the original. The clones probably have access to wood techniques as well. Like, c'mon... People are heavily debating Minato vs Tobirama, and you are implying that Minato can take down Hashirama?

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    • I dont think hashirama will use True Several Thousand Hands against small and fast opponent because the whole purpose of that is to show how much power he had to take down kurama a big target in one move.

      I dont really think mimato could just blitz in and kill hashirama otherwise he would have done so to madara with ease. Also not forgetting that during the time of hashirama those opponent he face is no joke compare to the time of minato. I am not saying minato is weak infact out of all the hokage i would rank him the same level as tobirama. In the flashback that minato vs obito we could see minato without using the ftg is still fast but not to the extend of hashirama not able to predict or see him. That said i think naruto will win...minato, kabuto, jiraiya will most likely run out of chakra or sage mode will wear their body down and with or without kurama both naruto and hashirma are the reincanation of asura so its more like who can last longer.

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    • Yuoh03 wrote: I dont really think mimato could just blitz in and kill hashirama otherwise he would have done so to madara with ease.

      What case are you talking about exactly?

      Yuoh03 wrote: I dont think hashirama will use True Several Thousand Hands against small and fast opponent because the whole purpose of that is to show how much power he had to take down kurama a big target in one move.

      He used it against Majestic Susanoo Kurama and in the end, it was only a draw. He had to use a different jutsu to suppress Kurama.

      Vladosaurus wrote: @Thekillman You actually believe that this is the way the battle between them would go? Actually, do you seriously believe that Minato would be the one on the attack?

      What we've seen of Hashirama, he's more suited to a defensive style anyway. He mostly stands back and lets his jutsu handle it. Besides, Minato teleported Bijudama and Kurama without even breaking a sweat. Making it extremely doubtful that a small Rasengan is his limit, we've seen people like jiraiya and Naruto make humongous ones with little effort. He also has a number of seals at his disposal which could restrict Hashirama's abilities. If Minato can seal away Kurama and create a seal capable of restricting it fully, i don't see why it wouldn't work on Hashirama.

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    • @Yuoh03
      Why do you think Jiraiya will run out of chakra? Shouldn't Jiraiya be the one who would survive the longest even more than SM Kabuto? His SM will go on as long as he has an ounce of chakra. that should probably be more than either Naruto or Hashirama in this fight.
      @Vladosauras
      Why do you think 1000 hands would help in a fight without chakra construct or Avatar? Yes it's true the jutsu has extreme destructive capability but against something of its own size. The Gargantuan jutsu is probably ineffective against someone of much smaller-minute size who could easily climb onto the statue. Plus its not like Hashirama is immune to sound genjutsu, he might be good against visual genjutsu of the uchiha but that doesn't hold true for other genjutsu.

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    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Hashirama has more chakra than Naruto with half of Kurama sealed in him. What makes you think he'll run out of SM before Jiraiya? Also, the fact that Orochimaru said Hashirama can break out of Edo Tensei means that he can break out of most genjutsu, considering Edo Tensei exerts control over the summons' brain.

      Basically speaking, all the Sage Four (that's what I'm calling them) team can do is hope that Naruto lands a hit with his Rasenshuriken and then just throw everything they can at Hashirama before he manages to regenerate. Though that would be extremely difficult since Hashirama has plenty of jutsu that allow him to keep a distance and his superior SM can keep an assassination-type speedster like Minato out of his personal space. Edo Hashirama managed to defeat Edo Madara, someone who had easily overpowered the Gokage without breaking a sweat. I don't see how an alive, way more powerful version of him wouldn't be able to take out four Hokage-level shinobi.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Hashirama has more chakra than Naruto with half of Kurama sealed in him.

      No offense man but that's outright bullshit.

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    • @Rage gtx The guy himself confirms it. When Naruto is distributing his chakra to everyone, he says "Wow, he almost has as much chakra as me."

      I understand if you're not OK with it, but this is canon so it doesn't fall under the "outright bullshit" category.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Rage gtx The guy himself confirms it. When Naruto is distributing his chakra to everyone, he says "Wow, he almost has as much chakra as me."

      I understand if you're not OK with it, but this is canon so it doesn't fall under the "outright bullshit" category.

      And I already posted about the matter right here in thread.

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Vladosaurus wrote: @Yuoh03 Actually, he said that Naruto with Kurama (half) had almost as much chakra as him. So Hashirama had more than him.

      He did not he said that Naruto sharing(Naruto's own) chakra with SA must have same chakra volume as himself second later he got astonished by fact there was Fox chakra also. By the way sharing works Naruto(without Fox) having same chakra volume as Hashirama is given fact.

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: how was he supposed to know whose chakra was whose? they chakras were merged at the time, so he couldn't say with certainty that said chakra was higher than his. for all we, as in everybody, know, he didn't even know that he was talking bout kurama's chakra as well.

      Umm what? Hashirama just said - giving chakra to entire SA is same chakra level as himself. Naruto gave his chakra to every shinobi in SA. His chakra was mediator(only Naruto chakra can be mediator) between SA members and Fox chakra - so Naruto by his own chakra alone is comparable to Hashirama.

      Problem is not what "guy" himself confirmed, but what you understood from it.

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    • You do realize that there is no logical way for Hashirama to have only Naruto's level of chakra, right? Even if teen Naruto on his own had large chakra reserves, if Hashirama would've had the same level, there would be no way for him to do and pretty much spam the techniques he used. I mean c'mon, by only slightly releasing his chakra, Hashirama cracked the floor and the building when he had his talk with Sasuke and Orochimaru. Even if his chakra was demanded to be very strong, he would still need very large chakra reserves to do his usual routine.

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    • Have you ever thought that maybe it could be just you reading too much into it? [1] He thought that Naruto's immense chakra was his own initially, but then backtracked on his comment after sensing Kyuubi's chakra mixed in. Besides, if he only had Naruto levels of chakra, how the hell would he have been able to fight Madara for an entire day AFTER having incapacitated the Kyuubi? He even planned to send his wood clone to fight edo Madara in his stead, which means he could pull off the same chakra-taxing maneuvers like Naruto in the War arc, and we know Naruto couldn't have done those without Kurama's help.

      Madara enhanced by Hashirama's cells could create five clones each capable of conjuring Susanoo, which at least implies that Hashirama's clones were capable of pulling off majestic feats too which can't be done without a great source of chakra.

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    • @Mr. Grave Man your own reference defeats your whole point. Read what Hashirama said "Sharing chakra with every shinobi in alliance = Having same chakra as Hashirama" Do you argue that Naruto did it? Because Kurama described whole process in details. So here we are from Hashirama own words: Having enough chakra to give every shinobi is his chakra level. Mixing in Fox chakra is something that surprises even him. Your problem is that you think is Naruto level chakra is something low where as even at chininshiken at age 12 with blocked seal(Fox chakra not mixing in) by Orochimaru he still was able to use Multiple Shadow Clone Technique chakra taxing kinjutsu. And considering that firs half of 4th war he used his own chakra even while in 9TCM, it's perfectly fine that Naruto has comparable to Hashirama chakra level.

      @Vladosaurus sorry no offense but do you have cognitive problems - the only logic way from Hashirama own words is that they have comparable levels of chakra, just because you don't like it does not become illogical. And also crackings were from his and Tobirama chakra collision not from his chakra alone, so you need to conclude that Tobirama also has this much chakra(wich is known not to be true) otherwise your point is moot.

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    • That's just ridiculous...so Hashirama can create Wood Dragons, Deep forest, wood clones and a Wood Golem capable to match Madara's PS in power without breaking a sweat in BASE, but he has similar amount of chakra as teen Naruto, who in SM could create a maxim of 4 rasenshurkien before exhausting (during the war). It makes no sense buddy...

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    • @Vladosaurus check you facts man before calling something ridiculous. We don't even know how chakra taxing these techniques were but somehow you ignore that Madara who can use PS which in comparable size while having less chakra than Hashirama. And about 4FRS it was when Kurama were not allowing amphibian technique - after 4 frs SM wears off not Naruto chakra exhausts he still has shitton of chakra left, I really suggest you to reread manga you missed out some key points here and there.

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    • @Rage gtx

      Not disputing that Naruto has large levels of chakra, but compared to Hashirama's they're like a fart in a hurricane. Kakashi estimated Naruto's chakra to be four times larger than his reserves, and 200 times larger when counting the Kyuubi. So, it makes sense that Naruto can use Multiple Shadow Clones even by his own chakra reserves since the Multiple Shadow Clone jutsu does not require any sort of precise chakra control to pull off.

      And what do you mean didn't access Kurama's chakra until after the first half of the war? The entire point of the Torii seal was so Naruto could access Kurama's chakra with ease. He pulled out a huge chunk of Kurama's chakra as soon as the Torii seal was established [1] so your point is moot.

      And my earlier reference did not defeat my whole point. You just got a differen understanding of it from mine. Hashirama initially made the mistake of thinking that Naruto+Kyuubi's chakra was only his own when in reality Kyuubi chakra had mixed with Naruto's. It's all there in the panels.

      Also, could you cool it with the rhetoric? I am being frustrated that I'm having this debate right now, but I have yet to devolve into calling you or anyone else "cognitively challenged".

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    • @Rage gtx No, you should check the facts, not me buddy. First of all, when Kurama was "not allowing amphibian technique", was when Naruto learned SM for the first time. And during that time, his rasenshuriken limit in SM was 2, not 4. Go watch the moment when Neji died, that was the moment i was referring to. Neji bought Naruto time so he can enter SM, as Naruto said. Afterwards, Naruto used exactly 4 rasenshurikens and him SM wore off. And don't compare Hashirama with Madara. Madara's PS is a dojutsu, so of course it won't cost him no where near as much chakra as Hashirama. Sasuke's PS could battle Naruto's Kurama avatar no problem, yet Sasuke has no where near the same amount of chakra as Naruto himself.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Rage gtx

      Not disputing that Naruto has large levels of chakra, but compared to Hashirama's they're like a fart in a hurricane. Kakashi estimated Naruto's chakra to be four times larger than his reserves, and 200 times larger when counting the Kyuubi. So, it makes sense that Naruto can use Multiple Shadow Clones even by his own chakra reserves since the Multiple Shadow Clone jutsu does not require any sort of precise chakra control to pull off.

      And what do you mean didn't access Kurama's chakra until after the first half of the war? The entire point of the Torii seal was so Naruto could access Kurama's chakra with ease. He pulled out a huge chunk of Kurama's chakra as soon as the Torii seal was established [1] so your point is moot.

      And my earlier reference did not defeat my whole point. You just got a differen understanding of it from mine.

      Also, could you cool it with the rhetoric? I am being frustrated that I'm having this debate right now, but I have yet to devolve into calling you or anyone else "cognitively challenged".

      Just like guy that posted before you, you need check you facts - what you mean fart in hurricane? Do you have any factual proof that Hashirama incomparable more chakra than Naruto? Also what you mean control over Multiple Shadow Clones - it's kinjutsu because it drains chakra and kills user did you even read manga?

      And then you surprised why I ask about cognitive ability(although I did not ask you but Vladosaurus) Naruto seal was blocked at chunin exam. At war he used his own chakra because that's the way using Biju chakra works - when Naruto uses Fox chakra, Fox takes equal amount of Naruto chakra, also if Shadow clone used chakra drain is multiplied by number of clones - now count how much Naruto clones in 9TCM there were in 4th.... Kurama only stopped draining Naruto during fight with Son Goku when rest(minus Gokage vs Madara) of 4th war fights were already done with Naruto's help.

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    • lol If hashi's chakra lvls were the same as Naruto, he wouldn't have scared the whole team taka, along with the other three hokage, including tobirama himself, who almost made sasuke and orochimaru shit their pants by raising his chakra lvl to literal pinkie heights hahaha

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: lol If hashi's chakra lvls were the same as Naruto, he wouldn't have scared the whole team taka, along with the other three hokage, including tobirama himself, who almost made sasuke and orochimaru shit their pants by raising his chakra lvl to literal pinkie heights hahaha

      For the last time it chakra collision between two not only Hashirama's chakra. Also it's not like Naruto ever tried intimidate someone and it's not like Taka was scared the moment they saw Hashirama only when he actively used chakra.

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    • @Rage gtx

      You keep talking about us checking facts but you haven't provided something resembling of a source yet, where as I just gave you manga proof that Naruto used Nine-Tails chakra at the start of the War something which you disputed.

      Where did it say that Kurama takes some of Naruto's chakra in exchange for the one he gives to him? Sure, Naruto did experience harmful side-effects when using the out of control, TB forms in the past with the red cloaks, but he overcame that after he imprisoned Kurama with his Torii seal. He even said it himself in that one Chapter I linked you that Kurama was being kept in a separate section from him, meaning there was no way for Kurama to take his chakra.

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    • @Rage gtx Their chakra did not collide...you're like the only one who ever mentioned them colliding.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Rage gtx

      You keep talking about us checking facts but you haven't provided something resembling of a source yet, where as I just gave you manga proof that Naruto used Nine-Tails chakra at the start of the War something which you disputed.

      Where did it say that Kurama takes some of Naruto's chakra in exchange for the one he gives to him? Sure, Naruto did experience harmful side-effects when using the out of control, TB forms in the past with the red cloaks, but he overcame that after he imprisoned Kurama with his Torii seal. He even said it himself in that one Chapter I linked you that Kurama was being kept in a separate section from him, meaning there was no way for Kurama to take his chakra.

      Man you need reread manga ASAP you missed huge chunks of lore:

      Despite the passive abilities and enhancements he gains, Naruto's use of the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode is initially marked by limitations due to the Nine-Tails refusing to cooperate with him. This prevents him from using Tailed Beast Balls while in this form,[17] though he is eventually able to create miniature versions.[18] Because Naruto "shelves" his own chakra in this form and instead draws on the Nine-Tails', his early uses of it come with a risk that the Nine-Tails will take that shelved chakra, resulting in Naruto's death. Naruto must, therefore, be careful of how long he uses the form for and how many shadow clones he creates, as doing too many only increases the risk.[19] The Nine-Tails eventually stops trying to take Naruto's chakra,[20] and soon after that, starts cooperating, removing these limitations.[21]

      from: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Nine-Tails_Chakra_Mode

      Vladosaurus wrote: @Rage gtx Their chakra did not collide...you're like the only one who ever mentioned them colliding.

      It was collision Tobirama lifted finger and tried to use some harmful chakra on Sasuke but he was interrupted by Hashirama which caused cracks.

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    • Rage gtx wrote: Kurama only stopped draining Naruto during fight with Son Goku when rest(minus Gokage vs Madara) of 4th war fights were already done with Naruto's help.

      Kurama stopped draining Naruto's chakra much earlier than that

      Mr. Grave wrote: Where did it say that Kurama takes some of Naruto's chakra in exchange for the one he gives to him?

      Rage was referring to the risk Naruto faced when first using NTCM. In the article it states,

      ".. Naruto "shelves" his own chakra in this form and instead draws on the Nine-Tails', his early uses of it come with a risk that the Nine-Tails will take that shelved chakra, resulting in Naruto's death. Naruto must, therefore, be careful of how long he uses the form for and how many shadow clones he creates, as doing too many only increases the risk"
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    • UltimaDude wrote: Kurama stopped draining Naruto's chakra much earlier than that

      Not much earlier, it was during or slightly prior that fight during Edo Jinchuriki, first sings Kurama shown at time Madara used Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, and at this time already rest of battle fields were dominated by Naruto and it was moments before jinchuriki fight.

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    • Yes, there was some chakra exchange thing that I missed. I apologize.

      But still, he did use Nine Tails' Chakra not his own chakra as you said. I re-read that chapter once again and Gyuki said to him that as he used NT chakra, his own chakra would get sucked in, but he didn't specify the amount of chakra Kurama sucked in exchange for the amount of chakra he got from Kurama. 'Cause if Kurama would take in the same amount of chakra that Naruto would take from him, then considering Naruto's chakra is 4 times larger than Kakashi's while Kurama's chakra is 100folds more, Naruto would have died pretty early.

      I butchered the math but I hope my point got across to you.

      Also, I re-read Chapter 567 too, and Gyuki again deduced that Kurama had stopped absorbing Naruto's chakra at some point. He didn't specify when. However, it is heavily hinted by Kurama's flashback that he stopped absorbing his chakra after Naruto told him that he'd come for his hate one day, more specifically in Chapter 539 AFTER Naruto and Killer Bee had yet to fight edo Itachi and Nagato. So yeah, the chakra absorption had stopped long ago. And Bee himself said that Naruto would have died if he made so much clones using the same amount of chakra as his.

      Seriously dude, if you want to see Naruto's potential without Kurama's chakra, look no further than his fight with Pain. He had no assistance from Nine-Tails there yet he couldn't make more than one or two clones asides from the ones he left in Myoboku to collect Natural energy, before ruining their balance. Why didn't he have that problem during the Fourth War after taking Kurama's chakra in? He could make half a dozen/a dozen clones with the capabilities to take down Kage-level edos, and he could use SM and Wind Release without breaking their balance. He was nowhere near Hashirama's chakra feats.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Namikazenaruto9

      Hashirama has more chakra than Naruto with half of Kurama sealed in him. What makes you think he'll run out of SM before Jiraiya? Also, the fact that Orochimaru said Hashirama can break out of Edo Tensei means that he can break out of most genjutsu, considering Edo Tensei exerts control over the summons' brain.

      Basically speaking, all the Sage Four (that's what I'm calling them) team can do is hope that Naruto lands a hit with his Rasenshuriken and then just throw everything they can at Hashirama before he manages to regenerate. Though that would be extremely difficult since Hashirama has plenty of jutsu that allow him to keep a distance and his superior SM can keep an assassination-type speedster like Minato out of his personal space. Edo Hashirama managed to defeat Edo Madara, someone who had easily overpowered the Gokage without breaking a sweat. I don't see how an alive, way more powerful version of him wouldn't be able to take out four Hokage-level shinobi.

      You do realise that a kunai to Hashirama's head should be more than enough to end the fight?
      When Hashirama and Naruto enter SM they use a fraction of their chakra to mix with nature energy not all of it where as Jiraiya's and Kabuto SM allows them to absorb NE and mix NE continuously. It's logically evident that both will have SM much longer than other sage mode user.
      Since when did breaking Edo Tensei implied that he could break Genjutsu? Especially when Orochimaru didn't use the controlling Tags as well as he was using Hashirama's cells to bind them. So than according to you those who defied Edo tensei without the apparent advantages Hashirama had should be even stronger at breaking genjutsu? That doesn't even make sense.
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    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Not really. We know that the only damage that Hashirama's healing can't repair is lost limbs. There is no proof that he won't be able to shrug off a kunai to the brain. And when has a kunai defeated an important character anyway?

      And I get what you're saying regarding Jiraiya and Kabuto, but in terms of the battle's length Hashirama can maintain Sage Mode just as long. We've already seen him activate it almost seamlessly when against Madara which implies he can accumulate NE pretty fast. And in Jiraiya's case, his Sage Mode fails the minute Fukasaku and Shima are knocked off his shoulders.

      Edo Tensei exerts control over the brain. Genjutsu, no matter how it's taken, assaults the brain. Obviously, if you can break edo tensei, no matter how, then you can also break genjutsu. It makes sense really - how did Koto break Itachi out of Kabuto's control? And sure, while Orochimaru used Senju cells to control Hashirama, he was still surprised that he broke through it which means that was not supposed to happen. Plus, Tobirama's a Senju and if Naruto genetics have any semblance to real life, he should have broken through it too.

      I don't think anyone who's broken Edo Tensei is stronger than Hashirama, no. Mainly because we knew as soon as Sasori was revived that Kabuto's Edo Tensei was fairly unreliable.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Namikazenaruto9

      Not really. We know that the only damage that Hashirama's healing can't repair is lost limbs. There is no proof that he won't be able to shrug off a kunai to the brain. And when has a kunai defeated an important character anyway?

      And I get what you're saying regarding Jiraiya and Kabuto, but in terms of the battle's length Hashirama can maintain Sage Mode just as long. We've already seen him activate it almost seamlessly when against Madara which implies he can accumulate NE pretty fast. And in Jiraiya's case, his Sage Mode fails the minute Fukasaku and Shima are knocked off his shoulders.

      Edo Tensei exerts control over the brain. Genjutsu, no matter how it's taken, assaults the brain. Obviously, if you can break edo tensei, no matter how, then you can also break genjutsu. It makes sense really - how did Koto break Itachi out of Kabuto's control? And sure, while Orochimaru used Senju cells to control Hashirama, he was still surprised that he broke through it which means that was not supposed to happen. Plus, Tobirama's a Senju and if Naruto genetics have any semblance to real life, he should have broken through it too.

      I don't think anyone who's broken Edo Tensei is stronger than Hashirama, no. Mainly because we knew as soon as Sasori was revived that Kabuto's Edo Tensei was fairly unreliable.

      No amount of healing guarantees safety against Brain or Spinal injury. think about it. Plus we don't know how Hashi's healing actually works. I mean would it still heal if brain is damaged or so on?
      You are making contradictory statement wrt Edo tensei.
      You claim that Hashirama should be able to resist genjutsu because he could resist Edo tensei. Yet when other characters could resist it you said that they can't break genjutsu. I mean that doesn't make sense, it's clear their is common ground i.e. breaking Edo Tensei. the Event is escaping-breaking out of that jutsu. Now Hashirama had clear advantage over others(he was brought back in his clone body, his cells were used to control the jutsu, their is no controlling tag hindering him) and he breaks the jutsu.
      Others break out of the jutsu despite not having ounce of that advantage, as far as I can see you are having a bias because Hashirama is strong. the feat is not noteworthy and it doesn't imply hashirama can break genjutsu simply because if that was the case Naruto would have broken through any genjutsu with sheer will power.
      I am not sure but Hashirama can't fight with SM throughout the fight, Jiraiya and Kabuto can also might I add one of them still remaining implies that Jiraiya still in SM. And their sum of chakra could be comparable to Hashirama's chakra.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: @Namikazenaruto9 And when has a kunai defeated an important character anyway?

      Hahahahaha!!!!! Ohhhh the irony. I'm sorry, but I just couldn't pass this up. You do bring up interesting points, though

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    • @UltimaDude Eh, you do have a point. But I don't think a simple stab with that would have killed Hashirama. He was probably thinking of committing sudoku or something of the like.

      @Namikazenaruto9 I am not favoring anyone. Most of my favorite characters are in the opposing team. I'm just trying to play this one fair. And I'm not making contradictory claims - but both of these Edo Tensei versions were activated differently. Kabuto siphoned chakra from Orochimaru's curse marks to exert control over the summoned shinobi, while Orochimaru used Senju cells. Another difference is that Kabuto summoned more than a dozen shinobi while Orochimaru summoned Four for a short period of time, which he then released from his control. Heck, one of them broke through his control before that, so that makes it three. So, I guess it's a matter of which is stronger - Senju chakra or a type of chakra harvested from Sage Transformation. Taking into account which one of those two was coveted more in the series, I'm gonna have to go with 'Senju's cells.

      But okay, even if we assume that Jiraiya and Kabuto's sum of chakra is comparable to Hashirama's, they still don't have access to his enhanced version of SM or his multitude of devastating techniques. Heck, Jiraiya's SM was shown to lack the extraordinary sensory perception usually granted by this mode AND the enhanced strength. All he could really do was enhance his existing techniques.

      Also, pretty sure Tsunade, with her slightly weaker replication of Hashi's healing managed to shrug off spinal injury when Madara's bigass sword went through her. She even managed to stay conscious for a while after she was cut in half and her healing failed. And if Hashirama's regeneration can constantly regenerate dying cells without any drawbacks, that must apply for brain cells too.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Yes, there was some chakra exchange thing that I missed. I apologize.

      But still, he did use Nine Tails' Chakra not his own chakra as you said. I re-read that chapter once again and Gyuki said to him that as he used NT chakra, his own chakra would get sucked in, but he didn't specify the amount of chakra Kurama sucked in exchange for the amount of chakra he got from Kurama. 'Cause if Kurama would take in the same amount of chakra that Naruto would take from him, then considering Naruto's chakra is 4 times larger than Kakashi's while Kurama's chakra is 100folds more, Naruto would have died pretty early.

      I butchered the math but I hope my point got across to you.

      Also, I re-read Chapter 567 too, and Gyuki again deduced that Kurama had stopped absorbing Naruto's chakra at some point. He didn't specify when. However, it is heavily hinted by Kurama's flashback that he stopped absorbing his chakra after Naruto told him that he'd come for his hate one day, more specifically in Chapter 539 AFTER Naruto and Killer Bee had yet to fight edo Itachi and Nagato. So yeah, the chakra absorption had stopped long ago. And Bee himself said that Naruto would have died if he made so much clones using the same amount of chakra as his.

      Seriously dude, if you want to see Naruto's potential without Kurama's chakra, look no further than his fight with Pain. He had no assistance from Nine-Tails there yet he couldn't make more than one or two clones asides from the ones he left in Myoboku to collect Natural energy, before ruining their balance. Why didn't he have that problem during the Fourth War after taking Kurama's chakra in? He could make half a dozen/a dozen clones with the capabilities to take down Kage-level edos, and he could use SM and Wind Release without breaking their balance. He was nowhere near Hashirama's chakra feats.

      You are too biased to conclude anything. Naruto won't die because again we don't know how much he does waste on justu castion - this same problem with Hashirama you are concluded he has bigger than Naruto chakra because of size justu he casts - which is utterly fallacious because we don't know thing about their chakra usage. So spare everyone's time and do not bother with "maths" at all.

      I won't even address your bs about chapter 539 - it shows how sore orator you are.

      And lastly Naruto everywhere near Hashirama feats because he is same frikin reincarnation of Ashura with same bloodline and with Kurama chakra he by far tops Hashirama feats. For the future learn how to read manga stop making weak excuses when you are pointed to facts it is not matter of belief.

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    • Oh? So, why didn't Sasuke have the same large levels of chakra as Madara then? If they are both Indra's incarnates then by that logic they all should have the same chakra levels, right?

      And you telling me to read manga better when you started this argument because you misunderstood Hashirama's manga statement is quite rich. I'd also advise you to stop with the brute rhetoric. I admitted to making a mistakes in judgement in the duration of this debate and I apologized for it. You can take your condescending attitude elsewhere.

      Hashirama takes this with high difficulty.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Oh? So, why didn't Sasuke have the same large levels of chakra as Madara then? If they are both Indra's incarnates then by that logic they all should have the same chakra levels, right?

      And you telling me to read manga better when you started this argument because you misunderstood Hashirama's manga statement is quite rich. I'd also advise you to stop with the brute rhetoric. I admitted to making a mistakes in judgement in the duration of this debate and I apologized for it. You can take your condescending attitude elsewhere.

      Hashirama takes this with high difficulty.

      What is Madara "large levels" where did you find them? Marada's Sasuke's and Uchiha's chakra in general was called strong, evil, prominent, malicious - it was never was called large and never was, existence of Sunanoo itself proves that one does not need big reserves to have big jutsu.

      Are arguing in pure statement which is literal Hashirama stated for one to share chakra with entire SA(several dozens of thousand people) one must have comparable to his chakra levels. Kurama explained that Naruto gave everyone his chakra(already fulfilling Hashirama's logical requirement) which worked as mediator.

      I do not use brute rhetoric - and I advise you stop trying to act as mod here, you were give undeniable manga facts which you are still denying and that makes you biased. If you unable to follow normal conversation without moving goal posts then just stop.

      Hashirama loses.

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