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  • Earlier today I was on a thread about Madara vs Itachi. Its very much obvious that Madara would stomp Itachi in almost all variations of the fight. But one thing that stuck out to me was the fact that a lot of people were still stating that Kishi said in an interview that Itachi could beat Madara and that is why he killed him, This is simply not true as the interview does not exist. Plus people fail to see that Itachi was brought back in the war anyways. Itachi simply could not beat Madara for a lot of reasons.

    1: Madara had superior dojutsu.

    2:Madara is more skillfull and faster than itachi

    3: madara has superior stamina

    4: madara has superior fighting experience

    5: madara can use wood clones which can use susanoo

    6: madara develops the rennigan

    7: madara had susanoo and attacks that could overwhelm the yata mirror

    8: madara wasnt sick and literally dying

    I could go on and on based on all his forms. so can we please move on from that "interview". This all may seem obvious to some of you but i have seen people still bring it up so I just wanted to end it

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    • ..... ok... (inserts 'thumbsup' emoji)...

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    • @lorenzo.r.2nd what? i simply wanted to clarify for the people still citing that dumb interview

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    • you should better see the title and pre condition of that debate...(i.e. Madara was nerfed)

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    • Even if Madara was nerfed, Itachi fans ignore the fact that Itachi is sannin level at best (the data-books agree). Even a nerfed Madara (war arc MS version) should surpass Itachi due to the fact that his regular Susano is agile, can fly, jump high, has four arms & swords + he has more battle experience/tact, is more of a prodigy (beat several adult senju as a kid before awakening his sharigan), and mastered chakra natures that should be able to circumvent the yata mirror (not omni directional, can possibly be overwhelmed if multiple upper level attacks of varying natures are fired at it at once + Gaara proved that you can attack or pull someone from under their Susano with jutsu's. Also the 5 kages proved that Susano's can be broken if you hit them hard enough.) Not to mention Madara's tomoe patterned sharigan grants more fluidity in combat movement + much better chakra reserves + advanced versions of what Itachi knows in jutsu + counters = too much diversity and a bombardments of attacks for Itachi to handle all at once. Add in the fact that Madara's a sensory Ninja + has counters for Itachi in Bukijutsu (weapons) (what use are Itachi's shuriken skills against Madara's deflecting gunbai + shuriken skills and more?) + superior experience and intelligence = stomp.

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    • Madara is undoutebly stronger. 1. He knows ALL Mangekyo Jutsu 2. Itachi's Susanoo is just Armored, Madara's is perfected. Even MS Madara has legged Susanoo which he can use blindly 3. Itachi would have no weapon advantage as Madara took a division by himself. Itachi also demonstrated usch skills, but on a shorter scale. H couldn't take out the Uchiha Police by himself and FEARED to fight Fugaku.' Madara's Gunbai deflects shuriken Madara knew all five nature types and yin yang release. Itachi knew only 3 and yin yang release. Both tie in taijutsu maybe, but Itachi was just above Sannin level, due to him defeating Orochimaru(Jiraiya's equivivalant) when he had both arms easily. Jiraiya's lack of genjutsu skills make it easy for Itachi to capture him in a genjutsu, and he said tat nn-sharingan users(fukasaku and shima)'s genjutsu has no effect on him. Madara was above kage level, easily defeaing the 5 kage in a weakened state. Besides he was toying with them for the first half of the fight. So Taijutsu; equal Ninjutsu: Madara gets the edge Genjutsu: equal Bukijutsu: Madara gets the edge Strength and Stamina: Madara gets the edge Speed: equal Hand seals: Madara gets a slight edge Intelligence: equal If Madara was in the databooks, I think he should be Ninjutsu: 5 Taijutsu: 4.5 Genjutsu: 5 Intelligence: 5 Strength: 5 Speed: 5 Stamina: 5 Hand Seals: 5 Total: 39.5/40(99%) Madara was UNDOUBTEDLY stronger.

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    • Madara will Rapture Itachi to pieces boi

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    • what is exactly the meaning of this thread most of people here would agree that pretty much every version of Madara would beat Itachi,and Everyone Knows that such interview doesn't exist.

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    • "All people, even the strongest ones have weaknesses however Madara does not" - Masashi Kishimoto

      Madara was so powerful the author himself had no idea how to beat him, the hell is Itachi going to do to a character whose power practically broke the 4th wall in it's sheer enormity.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: "All people, even the strongest ones have weaknesses however Madara does not" - Masashi Kishimoto

      Madara was so powerful the author himself had no idea how to beat him, the hell is Itachi going to do to a character whose power practically broke the 4th wall in it's sheer enormity.

      Come on Seriously dude?

      "All Characters would eventually die but He(Orochimaru) will be their till the end of times(--or atleast last more than any of us ever can)"- Masashi Kishimoto
      This is about Orochimaru's immortality.
      "Hidan is my Favorite villain. He will fight his fullest and try to drive up even when he is cornered" - Masashi Kishimoto
      These are extracts from New York Comic Con 2015) #NYCC.
      Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTGXJlxDlo
      So its pretty clear that author is trying to promote the series by saying certain aspects in manner which resonates people's following of the character. I wouldn't take it as final since Kishimoto could introduce even better villain in future.(like how he got rid of Madara by introducing Stronger Villain - Kaguya, Whose some of the abilities are still shrouded in mystery{aka unclear})
      Edit: Do note this interview is after Main stream Naruto Shippuden finished.

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    • I'm sorry but retconning in that massive pile of fail called Kaguya doesn't count as a planned solution rather it comes off as an out of nowhere one plus everything he said about Hidan and Orochimaru aren't exaggerations so I don't see your point...assuming you had one.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: I'm sorry but retconning in that massive pile of fail called Kaguya doesn't count as a planned solution rather it comes off as an out of nowhere one plus everything he said about Hidan and Orochimaru aren't exaggerations so I don't see your point...assuming you had one.

      Well my point was : 1)That massive pile of Kaguya was created by the very same thought process which created your Perfect Madara.
      2)that Story had to take the turn to the Sage of Six Paths- to explore why he was such an Legendary figure and what better way than to show him capable of being more capable and stronger than Madara , And Villain Stronger than Madara had to be created for him(Sage) to fight in the Past. Madara didn't existed before that, So those weren't retcons especially when Author clearly gave that 'hint' especially when he gave the seal and stuff.
      3)Kishimoto creates character by clearly defining the guiding principles and has perfect sending off way for them. For Instance Kabuto had the idea for 'Perfect Self', Madara's Idea was that of 'Perfect World', Obito's Idea though similar to Madara was to achieve his Dream in a dream. Pain wanted the perfect world where Violence was in much controlled fashion before it reverted to his original idea of 'PEACE'.
      Madara was placed on a high pedestal post his introduction in the 4th Great Ninja War. His Fighting style and Ideology were something on a different level compared to all. And this generated A fan Faring for him, If Madara was to be the Last Villain in the series the Series would have ended in Tag game With one of the greatest Villain something not good for character of that caliber. So like other Shinobi he was written off in much better way than that Tag game. A Lesser Morale Villain like Kaguya could be disposed off With that Tag game considering her diving force was Greed cum Fear of her Karma.

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    • 1) It really wasn't, unlike Madara Kaguya can't boast that she had build up throughout the story on the same level as Madara did. Madara has actual personality, a goal one can relate to and has enough skill, competence and well-known history to justify his power.

      2)The story had already made that turn chapters ago before Kaguya was even mentioned.

      3) I'd rather he be defeated in a more believable and dignified way, I like my villains to be actual threats not brain dead morons who rely on a pile of black goop to do essentially all of the fight strategizing for them.

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    • Dude did you really read?

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    • Yup

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    • I addressed everything you needed.

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    • You sure did, shame I didn't agree with most of it but it was a rather lovely read regardless.

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    • Too bad. I was hoping I would change your mind...

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    • Don't worry, my mind changes constantly so you're bound to be right in my mind eventually for some time before it changes again.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: 1) It really wasn't, unlike Madara Kaguya can't boast that she had build up throughout the story on the same level as Madara did. Madara has actual personality, a goal one can relate to and has enough skill, competence and well-known history to justify his power.

      2)The story had already made that turn chapters ago before Kaguya was even mentioned.

      3) I'd rather he be defeated in a more believable and dignified way, I like my villains to be actual threats not brain dead morons who rely on a pile of black goop to do essentially all of the fight strategizing for them.

      Kaguya was introduced only because madara was too powerful for the heroes to beat. The only chance they had of defeating madara was when he had one rinnegan. Kaguya was just needed so madara could die so the heroes will be able to win against a thousand year old rusty fighter. They needed to kill off madara and finish kaguya before the series turned out to be like dragon ball z

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    • Villain too strong so replace with bland caricature...good move Kishi.

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    • I don't see how Madara was too strong for Naruto and Sasuke to beat. Heck, the duo nearly defeated Madara

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    • UltimaDude wrote: I don't see how Madara was too strong for Naruto and Sasuke to beat. Heck, the duo nearly defeated Madara

      Suuuure they did, like how they were unable to even touch him after he got both of his eyes back and that was before he got a Rinne Sharingan. Naruto surprise anal raping Madara right off after he just got done with 8 gates Guy isn't really a very strong case and while they did have him sort of on the ropes he literally just looked at Sasuke and said "huh he's kind of fast now" in response to being cut in half.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Suuuure they did, like how they were unable to even touch him after he got both of his eyes back and that was before he got a Rinne Sharingan. Naruto surprise anal raping Madara right off after he just got done with 8 gates Guy isn't really a very strong case and while they did have him sort of on the ropes he literally just looked at Sasuke and said "huh he's kind of fast now" in response to being cut in half.

      Did you even read the manga? The duo nearly sealed Madara after striking him with a Magnet Release: Rasengan and "Onyx Chidori"

      Nothing indicated that Madara was too difficult for Naruto and Sasuke to defeat. After obtaining SPSM, Naruto punched Madara into the Shinju, dodged Limbo, and threw a Lava Release: Rasenshuriken at Madara while cutting the Shinju. After that, Madara absorbed the Shinju, Naruto entered his chakra mode, and Tobirama teleported Sasuke to Naruto. When Madara finished hyping himself up, he then cast a jutsu to which Naruto threw a TSB rod to deflect it and Sasuke teleported out of its range. Naruto then proceeded to strike Madara, but a Limbo clone blocked him and Madara cut his TSB rod while the clone knocked him away. Sasuke figured out the mechanics of Limbo and told Naruto to prepare a sealing jutsu. Sasuke then told Naruto to run towards him with his Magnet Release: Rasengan while Sasuke does the same with his "Onyx Chidori". Sasuke teleported Madara in between his "Onyx Chidori" and Naruto's Magnet Release: Rasengan. Before the duo were able to touch Madara with the Six Paths Yin and Yang seals, Madara flew off, knowing that he shouldn't screw around anymore and to get his other Rinnegan, while leaving a Limbo clone his place. Sasuke told Naruto to watch over the Limbo clone as he attempt to catch up to Madara with Amenojikara. It didn't work, so Sasuke decided to catch up to Madara on foot. Madara got to Kakashi, ripped out Obito's other Sharingan, and proceeded to warp to the Kamui dimension. While doing so, Sasuke caught up to him and bisected him with Chidori. Before Madara entered the Kamui dimension, Sakura hesitated to destroy Madara's other Rinnegan. When Madara entered, Obito Kamui'd Sakura out of the Kamui dimension. Madara, with both of his Rinnegan, and Obito, who was being controlled by BZ, returned from the Kamui dimension. Sakura decided to rush Madara only to get stabbed in the gut and tried to punch him in the face only to get blocked by a Limbo clone. Naruto and Sasuke then rushed to them, with Naruto grabbing Sakura and Sasuke attempting to strike Madara. The duo were knocked away. After that, Madara flew high in the sky, created numerous CTs, and threw them at Team 7. Sasuke, with his PS, flew up to catch Madara while slicing the planetoids in the way and Naruto created multiple TBB Rasenshurikens to destroy the other planetoids that Sasuke didn't get to. While Naruto and Sasuke were occupied with the planetoids, Madara looked into the moon, awakened the Rinne-Sharingan, and activated Infinite Tsukuyomi.

      These are all of the events leading to Madara activating IT. No where was it shown that Madara was too powerful for Naruto and Sasuke to handle. Not to mention, the duo didn't even use their power to the fullest

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    • Madara had limbo, he got out of that seal like it was nothing. I'm sorry but I don't see a way Naruto and Sasuke can defeat someone with decades more experience and plenty more power (he outright says he has both of their powers and he spent most of the war arc playing around to the point Kishi had to heavily nerf him) without using plot armour. Kaguya lost because she's dumb as bricks and need I remind you she was only written in because Kishimoto genuinely could not think of a way to kill off Madara.

      Or to put it another way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqP5qGJX_w

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    • @Starscream1998 For a person who is supposedly too powerful to be defeated, he sure felt cornered by Naruto and Sasuke. Madara is not unbeatable

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    • There's a reason he stopped messing around and cast the IT as soon as possible. Naruto and Sasuke were cutting it way closer than he had expected. He was under pressure.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: @Starscream1998 For a person who is supposedly too powerful to be defeated, he sure felt cornered by Naruto and Sasuke. Madara is not unbeatable

      Nerfed is a more accurate term rather than cornered, Madara's not an idiot he knows when he's in trouble and not once since absorbing the tree did he display anything other than confidence. When you have a character that the author literally says he doesn't know how to beat and has to write him out of a story you're not going to convince me Naruto and Sasuke would have won in any way that wasn't Plot no Jutsu.

      Thekillman wrote: There's a reason he stopped messing around and cast the IT as soon as possible. Naruto and Sasuke were cutting it way closer than he had expected. He was under pressure.

      That only shows how little he cares about a fight, not once did Madara use even a slither of the full extent of his abilities like his EMS and Rinnegan powers. Only because they got BS six path upgrades and oh yeah Madara thought that they were dead before they ganged up on him. Being nerfed is not the same as genuinely being under pressure.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Nerfed is a more accurate term rather than cornered, Madara's not an idiot he knows when he's in trouble and not once since absorbing the tree did he display anything other than confidence. When you have a character that the author literally says he doesn't know how to beat and has to write him out of a story you're not going to convince me Naruto and Sasuke would have won in any way that wasn't Plot no Jutsu.

      Naruto and Sasuke didn't use anywhere near their full power, so what is your point? Madara showed nothing to indicate that he would be too difficult for Naruto and Sasuke to beat, considering that they countered most of the jutsus he used against them.

      Oh and FYI; the interview occurred YEARS ago when Edo Madara was at large

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    • My point is Naruto basically came in with Jesus powers and attacked a heavily nerfed Madara right after fighting Guy and when Sasuke cut him in half he was just like 'Sasuke sure is fast now' and just proceeds to Kamui away. Except Madara was using not even a quarter of the abilities available to him as he has all chakra nature transformations, Rinne-Sharingan, Rinnegan with all 6 path abilities including Limbo, EMS complete with Perfect Susanoo that should theoretically be able to evolve into a God Susanoo like Sasuke did as he possesses the Bjuu's Chakra complete with a booster in the form of the tree construct Obito expelled and Truth seeking orbs.

      I know and you've just proved my point in spades, Edo Madara who has a weaker fighting capacity than alive Madara with fake Rinnegan spent the whole war arc messing around and now you're telling me there was a conceivable way that wasn't pure BS for Naruto and Sasuke to beat Six Paths Madara who isn't stupid enough to make any of the mistakes Kaguya did?!

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: My point is Naruto basically came in with Jesus powers and attacked a heavily nerfed Madara right after fighting Guy and when Sasuke cut him in half he was just like 'Sasuke sure is fast now' and just proceeds to Kamui away. Except Madara was using not even a quarter of the abilities available to him as he has all chakra nature transformations, Rinne-Sharingan, Rinnegan with all 6 path abilities including Limbo, EMS complete with Perfect Susanoo that should theoretically be able to evolve into a God Susanoo like Sasuke did as he possesses the Bjuu's Chakra complete with a booster in the form of the tree construct Obito expelled and Truth seeking orbs.

      I know and you've just proved my point in spades, Edo Madara who has a weaker fighting capacity than alive Madara with fake Rinnegan spent the whole war arc messing around and now you're telling me there was a conceivable way that wasn't pure BS for Naruto and Sasuke to beat Six Paths Madara who isn't stupid enough to make any of the mistakes Kaguya did?!

      Naruto and Sasuke didn't use their full power against Madara, yet their were countered most of his techniques. So Madara not using his full power is an extremely moot point.

      You have yet to give me valid point as to how Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Madara, when they almost did. Quit overhyping Madara

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    • Sooo Naruto and Sasuke getting Jesus power to match Madara's Jesus power makes Madara nerfed? No thats not how it works.

      Also since Madara was Edo when Kishi made that statemant he literally could not be killed and outclassed everyone even with his lowered overall fighting ability, it wouldnt count as valid when talking about a living Madara after Naruto and Sasuke were brought up to his level.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Sooo Naruto and Sasuke getting Jesus power to match Madara's Jesus power makes Madara nerfed? No thats not how it works.

      Also since Madara was Edo when Kishi made that statemant he literally could not be killed and outclassed everyone even with his lowered overall fighting ability, it wouldnt count as valid when talking about a living Madara after Naruto and Sasuke were brought up to his level.

      The point you are trying to make?
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    • Madara didn't get nerfed. Naruto and Sasuke leveled up and he didn't appear as strong by comparison.

      Kishi's statement about Madara being unbeatable is invalid given the circumstances.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Naruto and Sasuke didn't use their full power against Madara, yet their were countered most of his techniques. So Madara not using his full power is an extremely moot point.

      You have yet to give me valid point as to how Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Madara, when they almost did. Quit overhyping Madara

      Most of his techniques, did you not listen to a word I just said the man at that point probably had most of the jutsu in the series? It really isn't, if someone isn't even trying not just for one fight but most of the series that's the opposite of a moot point.

      Oh I don't know, it's a mix of how Madara states he literally has both of their powers, he's decades older than both of them with more experience and cunning and then there's the fact that Kishimoto blatantly forced Kaguya into the story to get rid of him. There is no overhype to be had, Madara is broken and that's a fact.

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    • He says he has both of their powers not the sum of their stats....

      Having more experience doesnt automatically mean one has an advantage. Itachi and Sasuke have both defeated Orochimaru.

      Also, Sasuke and Naruto are at an advantage with a 2-1 fight.

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    • I've pointed out before that Susanoo is superior to Ashura path, so there's little reason for madara to use every single technique.

      Secondly, it's not at all clear that Madara was able to use his EMS techniques.

      Thirdly, Madara was messing about with the Five Kage, with Hashirama, Guy. it wasn't until Naruto and Sasuke's Six paths power that he got serious and quickly obtained his Rinnegan, then immediately cast Chibaku Tensei as a diversion while he cast IT.

      Lastly, we know that limits to the Rinnegan exist (IE Sasuke can only use 3x Ameno before closing it). Madara hid his weaknesses well, but notice for instance that after he sends out his Limbo clone, he apparently couldn't absorb the Lava Rasenshuriken.

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    • You know what fine, to each his own but I'm going to throw in the towel here because we could literally do this forever. I just feel Madara was pretty OP and had a chance of winning the war had Kaguya not been a thing but evidently a lot of you disagree so I won't force any of you to change your opinions because God knows that's always a successful thing to do on a forum.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: I just feel Madara was pretty OP and had a chance of winning the war had Kaguya not been a thing

      He IS OP and yes he could've won the fight. I just think it's undeniable that Madara though the fight was getting way too close for comfort and after messing about for hours, suddenly did everything in his power to start IT. He even got himself cut in half by Sasuke just to Kamui a bit faster (since he otherwise would've had to block it).

      Kaguya also nearly won the fight several times, and if it weren't for a few close calls, she would've won. She didn't fight that badly for a being sealed for 1000 years with negligible fighting experience.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Most of his techniques, did you not listen to a word I just said the man at that point probably had most of the jutsu in the series? It really isn't, if someone isn't even trying not just for one fight but most of the series that's the opposite of a moot point.

      Oh I don't know, it's a mix of how Madara states he literally has both of their powers, he's decades older than both of them with more experience and cunning and then there's the fact that Kishimoto blatantly forced Kaguya into the story to get rid of him. There is no overhype to be had, Madara is broken and that's a fact.

      Naruto and Sasuke also weren't trying their hardest at the time, so again, moot point

      Having both of their powers didn't prevent the duo from effectively countering his jutsus. Having more experience won't always give you the win. The same thing can be said about being more cunning. Naruto and Sasuke had far more difficulty fighting Madara than fighting Kaguya, that should tell you soemthing

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    • At the end of the day it comes down to this folks. Yes I will acknowledge Kaguya is on a whole other tier in terms of raw power than Madara plus Naruto and Sasuke probably can level the field against Madara but the thing is I don't picture Madara falling for any of the tactics Kaguya did so at the end of the day I'll just leave it with this question.

      What do you guys think matters more in a battle, raw strength or tactics? I'm sure many of you have realised what my response to such a question is and really I would have no problem of Madara losing to Naruto and Sasuke but to me Kaguya's entrance just comes off as Kishimoto's lack of faith in his abilities by choosing to go for a villain who just doesn't have the same build up as Madara. I'm sorry if I came off as jerking Madara off, I was coming at it more from a standpoint of narrative criticism than battle tier criticism and may have gotten carried away with personal biasm.

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    • Madara was strong because he have Izuna sharingan and hashirama dna. A fair Match Itachi vs Madara will stay Madara Mangekyo Sharingan vs Itachi no sickness Mangekyo Sharingan. Madara live a live along time and devellop and acquire power. Itachi story was completely different.

      We didn't know madara level when he was really young before all new power EMS Moukton Rinnengan Rinnen-Sharingan ...

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    • In an interview Kishimoto stated Itachi would beat Madara...but keep in mind this was way back when Tobi had only recently come out as Madara Uchiha and that statement doesn't seem to quite hold up when we look at some of the rather...impressive feats Madara is capable of.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: What do you guys think matters more in a battle, raw strength or tactics?

      Both matter somewhat equally, on the condition that the participants can hurt each other. IE, without Sage Mode, Obito could not be hurt. Though it seems to me that the best way to win isn't with complicated tactics but rather whoever can truly surprise the other.

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      to me Kaguya's entrance just comes off as Kishimoto's lack of faith in his abilities by choosing to go for a villain who just doesn't have the same build up as Madara

      I think Kishimoto was too set on his 700 chapter limit, and so tried to fit in all this backstory and loose ends with very little regard to pacing and development. I get that once Kishimoto put his foot down to end it at chapter 700, he couldn't back out that easily, but in this case i think even 10 chapters extra could've done a LOT to improve many aspects.

      Though considering most Manga either get cancelled or run until the mangaka's health deteriorates, i can see why Kishimoto was intent on finishing.

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    • Yeah, I can get behind that. Part 1 felt kind of free form you know, like it could go in any direction and the plot was fairly fluid and not yet set in concrete. I noticed that change though around the time Naruto and Sasuke's first clash ended because from then on it felt like the story had a sense of direction and purpose or to put it simply an end goal to reach.

      Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with that it's just some of the endearing themes that made Part 1 so beloved like effort and endurance gave way to destiny, prophecies, bloodlines, reincarnations and genetic talent which kind of sucked. Not to mention the circle of plot relevance shrunk as Part 2 went on until it ended up only circling Team 7 (although really it's just Naruto and Sasuke).

      It felt like Part 2 had been engineered to specifically bring Naruto and Sasuke back together for a final fight and to do that they needed something to bring them together and that something was Madara (although I suppose it was Obito by proxy throughout most of the series). But of course around the fight between Guy and Madara Kishimoto to his credit started to build up Kaguya (as much as he could and it really comes off as forced) to replace Madara's role as the thing that would bring the Naruto and Sasuke together.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with that it's just some of the endearing themes that made Part 1 so beloved like effort and endurance gave way to destiny, prophecies, bloodlines, reincarnations and genetic talent which kind of sucked.

      A lot of that was already present in Part 1 too though. Kakashi's KKG already made him a top-tier shinobi, just for having that eye. Sasuke's dojutsu matched Haku's KKG, and Naruto could only fight back by releasing his inner demon. Sure Naruto had to fight hard and train hard and needed cleverness to win, but without Kurama's power all that would've been for nothing.

      Sure it wasn't a big a problem back then, but these kind of issues were never really addressed and it adds up.

      Starscream1998 wrote: But of course around the fight between Guy and Madara Kishimoto to his credit started to build up Kaguya (as much as he could and it really comes off as forced) to replace Madara's role as the thing that would bring the Naruto and Sasuke together.

      The series started a thematic shift around Pain, where the whole bhuddist theme that continues into the current series started. Death, reincarnation etc. Sure the end goal was always VOTE II (Something Kishimoto himself said), but the road had it's deviations. The 4th war however features many new KKG and all sorts of new backstory that makes it clear that Kishimoto wanted to add way more. Presumably Kaguya was some aspect of the story he couldn't really fit until he had no other option than to kill Madara with her.

      Though i've also heard rumors that around the 4th war Kishimoto had health issues and his assistant did a lot for him.

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    • Thekillman wrote: I've pointed out before that Susanoo is superior to Ashura path, so there's little reason for madara to use every single technique.

      Secondly, it's not at all clear that Madara was able to use his EMS techniques.

      Thirdly, Madara was messing about with the Five Kage, with Hashirama, Guy. it wasn't until Naruto and Sasuke's Six paths power that he got serious and quickly obtained his Rinnegan, then immediately cast Chibaku Tensei as a diversion while he cast IT.

      Lastly, we know that limits to the Rinnegan exist (IE Sasuke can only use 3x Ameno before closing it). Madara hid his weaknesses well, but notice for instance that after he sends out his Limbo clone, he apparently couldn't absorb the Lava Rasenshuriken.

      yea i don't think his inability to absorb the lava release Rasenshuriken had anything to do with him casting limbo. i simply think that the lava release rasenshuriken is a completely different type of technique with all sorts of unique types of properties making it impossible to absorb. one such unique properties is the senjutsu of the six paths.

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    • The assistants assist, I'd be very worried if they started to write the story as their job is only to perform the physical drawing whilst Kishimoto recuperates.

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    • Ah, clearly Itachi would win because of the kotoamatsukami he has in his possession. Madara would be placed under it and be subjected to suicide.

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    • LunaAeris wrote: Ah, clearly Itachi would win because of the kotoamatsukami he has in his possession. Madara would be placed under it and be subjected to suicide.

      Kotoamatsukami is still a Genjutsu, it's not unbreakable just unnoticeable and do keep in mind Itachi had programmed Shisui's eye to respond to his eyes not Madara's. Besides I'm pretty sure ol' grandpa Uchiha would see such a move a mile away.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Kotoamatsukami is still a Genjutsu, it's not unbreakable just unnoticeable

      Not even that, since it was detected when Danzo used it. The Sharingan can see chakra, so it ought to be able to detect a buildup of chakra in the crow's eye. Assuming Madara doesn't kill it instantly with, for instance, Fire Release: Great Fire Annihilation.

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    • Itachi ain't beating Madara it's just not happening. I mean for Kami's sake the man thought blooming Obito was Madara.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: I mean for Kami's sake the man thought blooming Obito was Madara.

      Not sure what that has to do with it. Even Onoki thought Obito was madara, and he fought the actual madara.

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    • Onoki met Obito briefly and never fought him Itachi and Obito had far more interaction to the point Itachi even refers to him as a mentor. that connection between dynamics is non-existent.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Obito had far more interaction to the point Itachi even refers to him as a mentor. that connection between dynamics is non-existent.

      Itachi never met the real Madara. Besides, Obito used the excuse that he was severely injured and thus depowered by the VOTE fight. Itachi even references this, saying to Sasuke that "madara" was no longer fit to lead the Uchiha.

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    • Still doesn't change the fact Itachi bought Obito's act but I don't think we need to go on, we all know who the winner of Madara vs Itachi would be.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Still doesn't change the fact Itachi bought Obito's act

      I still don't understand what this has to do with Itachi beating or not beating Madara. Besides, Obito was granted Madara's name and authority by Madara Uchiha, or as he put it himself, "anyone who furthers Madara Uchiha's goal is Madara". So in a sense, Obito was indeed Madara. Plus, since Itachi was intent on finishing him off eventually, it seems to me that it doesn't matter what Itachi thought Obito was, since that identity was meant to scare people, and Itachi wasn't scared.

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    • Kishi made the comment about Itachi beating Madara in an interview when Tobi was still thought to be Madara, does it click now?

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    • As far as I remember, this was simply a joke from him.

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    • Unfortunately it's a joke lost on the Itachi fanboys. Ok I know I'm like the biggest Madara fanboy around but hey at least that guy has feats that deserve the hype and I will admit Naruto and Sasuke probably would've done his ass in (albeit with more difficulty than Kaguya because Madara's not a dumbass) but alas Kishimoto's humour is uh...well let's just say there were other jokes to make that wouldn't result in the Madara vs Itachi debate.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Kishi made the comment about Itachi beating Madara in an interview when Tobi was still thought to be Madara, does it click now?

      Yea but what does this have to do with Itachi buying Obito's masquerade?

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: As far as I remember, this was simply a joke from him.

      Well, Itachi had good odds of beating Obito. especially since it seems unlikely that he could phase through Tsukuyome. So it's not unlikely that he could beat "madara".

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    • The way you put it, it's really not beyond the realm of possibily against Obito, but I thought we've spoken about "real" Madara vs Itachi instead of Obito in his place. In regards of the real Madara, it'd actually be a joke.

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: The way you put it, it's really not beyond the realm of possibily against Obito, but I thought we've spoken about "real" Madara vs Itachi instead of Obito in his place. In regards of the real Madara, it'd actually be a joke.

      I don't disagree

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    • Thekillman wrote: Yea but what does this have to do with Itachi buying Obito's masquerade?

      Sweet Jiminy Cricket look let me make it as simple as possible in a sentence: The reason why Itachi does not beat Madara is because he thinks Tobi is Madara so he would have no idea how badly stomped he would get if he went up against the real deal plus Kishimoto's statement that implied Itachi could beat Madara is outdated as hell.

      Get it?

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    • That's the worst argument i've ever seen.

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    • Thekillman wrote: That's the worst argument i've ever seen.

      What because it's full of actual facts like how Kishi's statement of Itachi beating Madara is from an outdated interview, there's literally no other way anyone could make it simpler for you. Itachi gets stomped, you'd only need to read the Manga to work that out. If this is the worst argument you've ever seen I can' wait to see what you consider to be the best argument. I'm sooooo sorry I didn't break down their individual powers and speeds for you in a chart but this debate really doesn't need to exist, Madara would slaughter Itachi it's not even funny how one sided it would be...maybe if you did I don't know MS Madara from the warring states against Itachi it may be even.

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    • I think you should reread my opinion on the outcome. I don't disagree that Madara would win, but using the idea that Itachi bought Obito's ploy as evidence that Madara would win is borderline troll logic.

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    • Ok fine we'll scrap that part then so long as we're on the same page.

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    • I still don't see Itachi beating Madara. Madara is in everything except of Genjutsu superior to Itachi and yes even in Taijutsu. Genjutsu wouldn't work on Madara so well, because of his Sharingan and him being a sensory ninja too. His Sharingan and sensory abilities would let him even sense the build up of chakra in his eyes and act accordingly to the Mangekyo.

      Madara vs Itachi is a one sided domination, but Itachi with a Team of S rank ninjas would have a chance.

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    • Ace Chouno wrote: but Itachi with a Team of S rank ninjas would have a chance.

      After Madara single handily raped the 5 Kage...yeah I don't see it.

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    • Btw, where can this interview be found? I`ve heard about it a lot, but nobody has showed me so far. Was it just invented or what?

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    • LovelyFox wrote: Btw, where can this interview be found? I`ve heard about it a lot, but nobody has showed me so far. Was it just invented or what?

      The link if there ever was one has been lost to time so it's understandable if you just want to dismiss it as Itachi fanboy wank.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: The link if there ever was one has been lost to time so it's understandable if you just want to dismiss it as Itachi fanboy wank.

      But it's not fanboy wank. Contextually the statement makes perfect sense.

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    • The statement itself may not be fanboy wank but the resulting ideas from the statement are.

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    • LovelyFox wrote: Btw, where can this interview be found? I`ve heard about it a lot, but nobody has showed me so far. Was it just invented or what?

      I've been looking for it, but it seems to have been invented. Even among hundreds of youtube comments and other threads, i can't find a single link, or even a date or circumstance in which he said.

      EDIT: especially suspect is that i see the phrase repeated everywhere pretty much the same, with no variation or other context. just "Kishimoto said that itachi would beat madara"

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    • Yeah if only Itachi had been revived during the war to beat Madara #accuracy.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      LovelyFox wrote: Btw, where can this interview be found? I`ve heard about it a lot, but nobody has showed me so far. Was it just invented or what?

      The link if there ever was one has been lost to time so it's understandable if you just want to dismiss it as Itachi fanboy wank.

      Aaaand no. I`m just curious whether the fact that Madara would have been slayed by Itachi had the last one been alive is true. It sounds too ridicolous so i really have to find out.


      Thekillman wrote:

      LovelyFox wrote: Btw, where can this interview be found? I`ve heard about it a lot, but nobody has showed me so far. Was it just invented or what?

      I've been looking for it, but it seems to have been invented. Even among hundreds of youtube comments and other threads, i can't find a single link, or even a date or circumstance in which he said.

      EDIT: especially suspect is that i see the phrase repeated everywhere pretty much the same, with no variation or other context. just "Kishimoto said that itachi would beat madara"

      I hardly believed this fact when i was told about it at the first time. But then i also saw comments on youtube and became surprised like you. It`s kind of strange that hundreds of poorly matched people say the same thing over and over again.

      So probably they all just found some fake interview (as far as we even don`t have link of any version of it it`s unlikely) or Kishimoto simply didn`t think things true those times (the date of this "statement" is unknown, after all). But according to absence of any proof, it simply came out of nowhere, i think.

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    • LovelyFox wrote: I hardly believed this fact when i was told about it at the first time. But then i also saw comments on youtube and became surprised like you. It`s kind of strange that hundreds of poorly matched people say the same thing over and over again.

      Contextually it's not a super-weird thing to say. Itachi had the whole god motif going on, and Kishimoto could simply be implying that motif counts more. Or he could be talking about Obito. But

      LovelyFox wrote: So probably they all just found some fake interview (as far as we even don`t have link of any version of it it`s unlikely)

      The weird thing is, i can find transcripts and videos of other Kishimoto interviews, and even if i can't find those, i can often at least find a circumstance (e.g. at some event) or a date. But on the Madara-Itachi statement i can't find ANYTHING. Only people endlessly saying the same thing. Even youtube comments where someone asks for proof and more than 250 people reply, there's not a single shred of information that leads anywhere.

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    • LovelyFox wrote: Aaaand no. I`m just curious whether the fact that Madara would have been slayed by Itachi had the last one been alive is true. It sounds too ridicolous so i really have to find out.

      If it sounds ridiculous that may just be because it is in fact ridiculous. You already found your answer ironically enough.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: If it sounds ridiculous that may just be because it is in fact ridiculous. You already found your answer ironically enough.

      You'd be surprised how many people think Itachi would win.

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    • Itachi is kinda like the Batman of the Narutoverse. He has a legitimately divided fanbase, with some of his fans being completely reasonable and basing their opinions on mostly grounded arguments and then others who grasp at every little non-relevant, non-feat that they can get their hands on to justify that Itachi's invincible.

      Can't say it's all the fans' fault either. Kishimoto and the writers who tackled his origin story love him too.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Itachi is kinda like the Batman of the Narutoverse.

      There's the interesting additional similarly that both Itachi and Batman have quite a bit of stuff that's open to interpretation. For instance, Itachi's full power and his intellect. Batman's strength also depends heavily on the writer, from the recent and reasonable Dark Knight movie to ones where his superpower is basically to come up with a plan for anything no matter how ridiculous.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: If it sounds ridiculous that may just be because it is in fact ridiculous. You already found your answer ironically enough.

      You'd be surprised how many people think Itachi would win.

      I'm well aware there are quite a lot of Itachi fanboys who have an allergy to facts and logic.

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    • In the End that Itachi is invincible with his Susanoo IS AN MANGA FACT. Stated from a person that knows Kaguya power btw.

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    • Kishimotoo wrote: In the End that Itachi is invincible with his Susanoo IS AN MANGA FACT. Stated from a person that knows Kaguya power btw.

      One of Itachi's quotes is that every jutsu has a weakness. He's a character who recognises his flaws after realising his attempts to do everything by himself backfired after his death. He openly acknowledged there were things he couldn't and shouldn't have done alone and implores Sasuke not to repeat his mistake.

      Susanoo has been shown to have weaknesses throughout the Manga e.g. Danzo finding the weak point in Sasuke's Susanoo, Tsunade and the Raikage breaking apart Madara's Susanoo on more than one occasion etc. The only fact here is that no character in Naruto is invincible not even Kaguya.

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    • Kishimotoo wrote: In the End that Itachi is invincible with his Susanoo IS AN MANGA FACT. Stated from a person that knows Kaguya power btw.

      Did you just imply he would beat Kaguya?

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    • Sounds much like Hungryghostrealm's vibe, a reincarnation, maybe?

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    • Itachi may be able to beat Kaguya...with some serious back up in the form of Naruto and Sasuke but unless we're talking about his batman level strategizing Kaguya stomps him when it comes to power.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Itachi may be able to beat Kaguya...with some serious back up in the form of Naruto and Sasuke but unless we're talking about his batman level strategizing Kaguya stomps him when it comes to power.

      nah it would depend on how much plot armour itachi has I guess. How much of his Susanoo could actually block Kaguya's attack. Depending on that he could be either a very huge burden on the duo or more than enough on his own to take on Kaguya.
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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Sounds much like Hungryghostrealm's vibe, a reincarnation, maybe?

      Possibly a transmigrant, the truth will eventually be revealed...

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Itachi may be able to beat Kaguya...with some serious back up in the form of Naruto and Sasuke but unless we're talking about his batman level strategizing Kaguya stomps him when it comes to power.

      nah it would depend on how much plot armour itachi has I guess. How much of his Susanoo could actually block Kaguya's attack. Depending on that he could be either a very huge burden on the duo or more than enough on his own to take on Kaguya.

      I know I was being a bit generous.

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    • If totsuka and yata had showed slightly more feats in the war, itachi would've been capable of beating madara. But as of right now ,Even though I hate madara to the bloody core, that he beats itachi fairly easily.

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    • Itachi in his prime and with a Perfect Susanoo I can see maybe beating Valley of the End Madara...and that's it, anything after that Itachi gets stomped by Edo Madara, Rinnegan Madara and most certainly Juubi Madara.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Itachi in his prime and with a Perfect Susanoo I can see maybe beating Valley of the End Madara...and that's it, anything after that Itachi gets stomped by Edo Madara, Rinnegan Madara and most certainly Juubi Madara.

      I agree . The only way he could defeat chance against rinnegan madara is if the totsuka and yata blade could prove it can do the same as its stated in the databook. Otherwise he cannot do much to be honest .

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    • I disagree if the spiritual weapons live upto their hype than Madara doesn't stand a chance with current Susanoo itself.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: I disagree if the spiritual weapons live upto their hype than Madara doesn't stand a chance with current Susanoo itself.

      You mean rikudou madara doesn't stand a chance? I get where you're coming from but even if the DB isn't hype and real ,I think he'd come close to beating rikudou madara but does he have anything to counter IT? Or six paths senjutsu?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      You mean rikudou madara doesn't stand a chance? I get where you're coming from but even if the DB isn't hype and real ,I think he'd come close to beating rikudou madara but does he have anything to counter IT? Or six paths senjutsu?

      You do understand IT comes in definition of YM's protection. Even Senjutsu.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      You mean rikudou madara doesn't stand a chance? I get where you're coming from but even if the DB isn't hype and real ,I think he'd come close to beating rikudou madara but does he have anything to counter IT? Or six paths senjutsu?

      You do understand IT comes in definition of YM's protection. Even Senjutsu.

      But its not 360 right? If not madara can speedblitz itachi from the back right?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: But its not 360 right? If not madara can speedblitz itachi from the back right?

      It's more than just 360 apparently mirror can change any property to negate any attack. Go ahead and read it....

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: But its not 360 right? If not madara can speedblitz itachi from the back right?

      It's 720. Go ahead and read it....

      You didn't have to rude . I read the DB and it just says "changes it's attributes to that of the attack" , doesn't state anything about being omni-directional .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: But its not 360 right? If not madara can speedblitz itachi from the back right?

      It's 720. Go ahead and read it....

      You didn't have to rude . I read the DB and it just says "changes it's attributes to that of the attack" , doesn't state anything about being omni-directional .

      Actually I wrote that in hurry, Sorry about that. Had to go for dinner ...
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: But its not 360 right? If not madara can speedblitz itachi from the back right?

      It's 720. Go ahead and read it....

      You didn't have to rude . I read the DB and it just says "changes it's attributes to that of the attack" , doesn't state anything about being omni-directional .

      Actually I wrote that in hurry, Sorry about that. Had to go for dinner ...

      Ok.

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    • Ah yes the yata mirror. by far the most overhyped thing in naruto.

      Databook: it's so awesome and invincible! Manga: *blocks a few explosive tags and kunai*

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    • Thekillman wrote: Ah yes the yata mirror. by far the most overhyped thing in naruto.

      Databook: it's so awesome and invincible! Manga: *blocks a few explosive tags and kunai*

      It wasn't shown enough , so how're you saying such a sentence like you don't know what happened? It can change form and shape so it can literally beat even kaguya , I think , I just read the DB . I didn't know earlier .

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    • hyperbole

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: It wasn't shown enough , so how're you saying such a sentence like you don't know what happened? It can change form and shape so it can literally beat even kaguya , I think , I just read the DB . I didn't know earlier .

      Edo Itachi never used it. Never. Not once. Even when he was struggling against kabuto, he didnt bother. He didn't use it to block Chibaku Tensei (adapt to ANY attack remember?).

      Mcpowa wrote: hyperbole

      Yep. I get that it's a chakra defense similar to Uchiha Return or Yagura's mirror. But that doesn't mean it's literally effective against everything. I mean, Shikotsumyaku isn't omnipotent either

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Itachi in his prime and with a Perfect Susanoo I can see maybe beating Valley of the End Madara...and that's it, anything after that Itachi gets stomped by Edo Madara, Rinnegan Madara and most certainly Juubi Madara.

      I agree . The only way he could defeat chance against rinnegan madara is if the totsuka and yata blade could prove it can do the same as its stated in the databook. Otherwise he cannot do much to be honest .

      Let's face it though, Madara would literally have to be standing still and be a complete retard to be hit with the Totsuka Blade...which we all know would be terribly OOC for him. Sorry Itachi my man you're just really capable of beating the strongest Uchiha ever...well before Sasuke got the Rinnegan.

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    • I dont think the weapons are chakra since zetsu told it was supernatural . If he really was completely invincible as zetsu said , then I think he'll defeat TTJ madara if the hype is true , not to mention it came from zetsu who knows kaguya and madara . We all know how powerful tenten was in the war arc with those sage weapons and all those are considered inferior to totsuka blade and yata mirror , so I think itachi truly was completely undefeatable like zetsu said . If orochimaru was searching for it all his life , then it must be true to be honest .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: I dont think the weapons are chakra since zetsu told it was supernatural . If he really was completely invincible as zetsu said , then I think he'll defeat TTJ madara if the hype is true , not to mention it came from zetsu who knows kaguya and madara .

      Yea no. Black Zetsu was absolutely right though, when he said that Itachi was invincible. I mean, we know Jiraiya was comparable in strength to him, and Nagato was comparable to Jiraiya. So with that sword and shield, sure i get that Black Zetsu thought it gave enough of an edge to have Itachi win.

      At that point in time however, Hashirama was dead and his Edo sealed. Madara was dead and the plan to resurrect him far from completion. The Juubi wasn't resurrected. People we know would kick his ass were dead and unable to fight, or not yet in existence (e.g. SPSM Naruto or Rinnegan Sasuke). And i mean, if you're dead or not yet in existence, how are you going to fight?

      So yes, look at the context.

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    • ^^ You're wrong . Zetsu was planning to revive kaguya and he didn't know about the disease . So he didnt know itachi would die . So yeah , basically he was saying itachi if meets kaguya , slaughters her . The hyped version is invincibke , whether you like it or not . Notice the fact that zetsu never said kaguya herself was completely invincible , that says something .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      ^^ You're wrong . Zetsu was planning to revive kaguya and he didn't know about the disease . So he didnt know itachi would die .

      What? Zetsu noticed during the fight that Itachi was sick.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: So yeah , basically he was saying itachi if meets kaguya , slaughters her. The hyped version is invincible , whether you like it or not .

      Yea no.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Notice the fact that zetsu never said kaguya herself was completely invincible , that says something .

      He probably learned from the fact that the last time he said it, the person dropped dead 1 minute later. Plus why would he say that? She survived being ripped to pieces and even the goddamn Sage of Six Paths, First of his name, King of the Andals and the First men, Slayer of Juubi, Former of Beasts, Legend among Legends, etc etc etc etc couldn't kill her. Saying "she's invincible" would be a joke, like threatening to shoot someone with a gun and saying "this will hurt". No duh.

      Besides, black zetsu does say "my mother is the progenitor of all chakra. You brats can't do anything". A chapter later "my mother can absorb all ninjutsu. whatever you try to do is meaningless".

      And again, if we're going to play the literal interpretation game, then i guess Kimimaro is literally omnipotent.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      ^^ You're wrong . Zetsu was planning to revive kaguya and he didn't know about the disease . So he didnt know itachi would die .

      What? Zetsu noticed during the fight that Itachi was sick.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: So yeah , basically he was saying itachi if meets kaguya , slaughters her. The hyped version is invincible , whether you like it or not .

      Yea no.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Notice the fact that zetsu never said kaguya herself was completely invincible , that says something .

      He probably learned from the fact that the last time he said it, the person dropped dead 1 minute later. Plus why would he say that? She survived being ripped to pieces and even the goddamn Sage of Six Paths, First of his name, King of the Andals and the First men, Slayer of Juubi, Former of Beasts, Legend among Legends, etc etc etc etc couldn't kill her. Saying "she's invincible" would be a joke, like threatening to shoot someone with a gun and saying "this will hurt". No duh.

      Besides, black zetsu does say "my mother is the progenitor of all chakra. You brats can't do anything". A chapter later "my mother can absorb all ninjutsu. whatever you try to do is meaningless".

      And again, if we're going to play the literal interpretation game, then i guess Kimimaro is literally omnipotent.

      Well why didnt he say the key term? Completely invincible , so you brats cant do anything?Bcuz she aint. She has weaknesses , for example DMS kakashi . But itachi atleast according to the director ,with those weapons , didnt have a weakness . That's a fact .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Well why didnt he say the key term? Completely invincible

      Oh god you're one of those literal types aren't you?

      Databook 3, if my memory is correct, says that Shikotsumyaku is omnipotent. So according to Kishimoto himself, Kimimaro could kill itachi.

      Hashirama was called a god, so obviously he would just smite Itachi. Same for Hiruzen.

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    • @Killman

      I can do one better, YM described as being able to negate any attack (singular). So taking super-literal irrational logic, any attacks(plural) won't be negated by the YM, that's a fact lol.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Killman

      I can do one better, YM described as being able to negate any attack (singular). So taking super-literal irrational logic, any attacks(plural) won't be negated by the YM, that's a fact lol.

      So you know more than kishimoto? You know more than BZ? WHO IS KAGUYA'S WILL? What a troll . So any thing itachi gets , you want to contextualize but your faves hype statements you'll take literally? Saying jiraiya is stronger than the kage and stuff . Smh . It blocked multiple kunai so it can repel multiple attacks lol .

      Killman@ kaguya is a god . Rikudou is a god . But not completely invincible . That term went to itachi .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      So you know more than kishimoto? ... you want to contextualize but your faves hype statements you'll take literally?

      Caught in his own logic.

      Hahahahaha...

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    • ^ what? Being a god and being completely invincible is different as someone who has weakness like nagato was called a god smh . Look at how foolish your logic is . Atleast in naruroverse , the above two terms are different . Show me a guy who was stated to be completely invincible , then I'll concede . Perfect offense and defense . Limitless weapons . Even gunbai was caught naruto in his tracks . Which is an inferior spirit weapon . Someone as fast as that . Zetsu said supernatural so you're clearly not a literate to not understand the meaning of "supernatural"

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    • ^I see you are squirming from being caught in your own logic.

      Attention seeking at it's finest.

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    • ^So everyone who doesnt agree with your pathetic logic is attention seeking? What a self centred person you're . What caught in my logic? You seem to hype jiraiya even though he doesnt have good enough feats but you'd dismiss a statement made by the director itself and that said by BZ , the most knowledgeable guy in NV , as hype? Thats what I was saying , too bad you couldnt comprehend it sooner .

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    • ^No pal, seems you can't even comprehend your own logic.

      Jiraiya has nothing to do with this thread, why are you going off topic?

      Only you on the hype train, please jump off it.

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    • ^ bcuz you're hyping him with zero valid feats of speed or durability in the other thread and de-hyping itachi even though the director's words are proof enough . You get off your fanfic world where your fave is stronger than itachi with weapons . Thats not the director's wish so stop . Or go make your own series .

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    • Lol

      "de-hyping Itachi", I'm pointing out your own ridiculous logic by using it against you, yet you didn't understand that. Now you going off topic to try and get more attention. Please give an actual argument, not your own interpretation.

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    • ^ lol , itachi being completely invincible is my logic loooooool confirmed , this guy didnt watch naruto . What a ridiculous person .

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    • So you can't give one?

      All you can do is half-asked insults? hahaha...

      Don't take this guy seriously, he way misguided.

      Madara wins, he just too powerful.

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    • Director's words >>>>> you . So unless you value this guy more , dont take this immature guy's opinion seriously . Supernatural means no limit = no speed limit . So PS + RIKUDOU MADARA GETS PIERCED , the words of kaguya's will , who is kaguya herself basically .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Supernatural means no limit = no speed limit .

      Another spewing of hype and fabrications. Where is the evidence? Can you bring evidence? Or are you just bringing assumptions as usual?

      Also, love the reverting to the standing still argument, thats the only way any of your rundowns work lol.

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    • Defitions of supernatural :-

      su·per·nat·u·ral ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit adjective adjective: supernatural 1. (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. "a supernatural being" synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, superhuman, supernormal; More rareextramundane "supernatural powers" ghostly, phantom, spectral, otherworldly, unearthly, unnatural "a supernatural being" unnaturally or extraordinarily great. "a woman of supernatural beauty" noun noun: supernatural; plural noun: supernaturals 1. manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts.

      All the above are definitions and all include transcending laws of nature and physics . Speed limit indefinity is an exampke of transcending laws of nature and physics .

      Lmao you didnt have to reply , even by being ignorant of its meaning . You and your baseless arguments . Keep evading the point though . It's entertaining .

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    • Oh your rants and fabrications are more entertaining, I guarantee it lol.

      So no evidence, as to be expected. How can you claim something is true without evidence?

      Or are you just assigning your own abilities to those weapons?

      Trying to understand you here.

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    • ^^ Have you ever read chapter "Susano'O"? Or you've very weak eyesight , zetsu says " Those are supernatural weapons" .Try again with your rants .

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    • The fuck? Zetsu calls Itachi unbeatable... but Itachi says that everything has a weakness. If you state that the Yata Mirror is unpenetrateable can the Susanoo itself get broken. The Yata Mirror should be able to get sealed away too. Susanoo being a Jutsu basicly means that it's useless against Kaguya. Not to forget was Madara Said to have no weaknesses, he didn't state anything similar about Itachi.

      The only one that is dick riding is you Natrix

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    • Denial is strong with this one.

      Copies the words I use for whatever reason, look at him go lol.

      The fact that you can't answer simple questions speaks volumes.

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    • Lmao no weakness =/= completely invincible . Madara was stabbed by BZ , there you go , a weakness . Are you blind or some mental issue ? Itachi clearly said jutsu , YATA AND TOTSUKA is spirit weapons not jutsu . Look at this girl being so angry when someone takes itachi's side , you cant admit it? Yata repels kaguya . Easy as that . You're the one dickriding madara to utmost levels ignoring the directors words . Kishi told madara has no weakness in that war arc and didnt know how to kill him with the said war arc individuals who have normal ninjutsu . Stop being so angry . Itachi didnt illtreat you or anything .

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    • you guys need to chill

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    • ^^ ace chunuo guy clearly has temper issues , he's acting like itachi whipped him in real life , when it's just fiction and basic facts . Lmao , crazy stuff . Telling me to stop dickriding itachi while continuing dickriding madara lol . Says a lot about his character in real life .

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    • Why you so edgy lol?

      We know you can't prove anything, but thats no reason to be butt-hurt all the time lol.

      Anyways, Madara does have no weaknesses, thats the whole point of his character. That's why he wins, Madara > Itachi, please don't cry about this, it might hurt, but it's true.

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    • ^^ why so stubborn? Lack of facts?or memory loss? Bet you dont have the appropriate comeback so you shove your opinion down my throat and say thats his character? Ignoring everything I send just cuz you were lazy enough not to search it up? Yup man , hidan is also invincible according to databook so hidan beats madara according to your logic . Lmao quit trying so hard ; so hard its piercing through my screen lol . He said "I'm immortal" not " completely invincible" , also nice way of putting things when your mind is so blank and empty lol , outright disregarding the fact that supernatural weapons can do anything lmao . Just when I thought you wouldnt get lamer .

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    • the irony

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    • ^^concession accepted .

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    • @Natrix

      You can't just assign whatever ability you want to the YM and TB, that's totally ridiculous. Hyping all the way is not gonna help you. Seems like you still confused with your own logic which I used to defeat you.

      Ok, lets try this, if I give you proof that the YM didn't adapt to an attack or it's not as powerful as you claim, will you admit that you are a butt-hurt fanboy lol?

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    • I dunno why but I'm seeing a debate between Itachi and Madara. Madara shits all over Itachi, I'm sorry but get over it.

      I also saw a debate earlier speaking on Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke. If you have even an ounce of common sense you could tell Madara was far too much for Naruto and Sasuke after achieving his full power. The only time they could've beaten Madara was when he had one Rinnegan, after gaining his second Rinnegan and the Rinne Sharingan(a piece of Kaguya's power I might add.) it was quite clear what the outcome was gonna be. Team 7 was surrounded by Limbo and didn't know how to respond for god sakes, Kishimoto had to substitute Madara for Kaguya and used a nonsensical plot device to do it (BZ.) Despite the fact that Kaguya is stronger than Madara regarding raw power, she lacks a lot that he has mainly versatility and experience.

      Madara was far better equipped to deal with team 7 than she was. Then again she could've actually one shot them had Kakashi and Obito not intervened. So it wasn't just Kaguya vs Naruto and Sasuke but Kaguya vs Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi and Obito with SO6P influence.

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    • ^^you've no authority to defy dictionary meanings . Statements in manga arent false , and manga supported statements in DB arent false too . What if naruto had trouble with madara? Naruto dont have the Totsuka or yata necessary to be completely invincible lol . Lmao this base for was for fanfics?Didnt there were people going against manga phax this hard lol . Itachi shits all over madara -kishimoto .

      @ninja I know the truth hurts your wittle brittle feelings , but its a manga fact , get over your injury quickly .

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    • @Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam I dunno what you're going on about but it looks like you're trolling. In fact I'm certain you're trolling, Itachi can't fight demi-gods of Naruto and is out classed by quite a few people. Madara ranking very high among them. Totsuka and Yata are pointless against Madara, his Perfect Susano'o is massive enough to just step on it. He could literally squish Itachi like a bug if he wanted or just blitz him. Itachi can't even compete.

      @Ninja Just ignore him, he's trolling. Not worth debating.

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    • @Natrix

      So you willing to deny facts just to fit your narrative?

      Fanboy indeed. You so sensitive. Can't handle criticism? Too bad lol.

      @Natrix adds no value to this discussion. All talk, nothing to back it up, go home dude. Everyone taking you for a joke at this point.

      Anything someone else says > @Natrix says.

      Madara stomps lol.

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    • What do you mean by "all talk"? Literally send the definition right there . Trolls . Keep trolling though , I would like to see how long you'd behave like a sore loser incapable of accepting facts wholeheartedly lol . Stop crying , I know you're so hurt but let's bear it . Lol . Literally copy and pasted the definition above . Or you're kinda illiterate , incapable of reading english . Either of those , or reallllly bad eyesight , you cant see things properly with yoir bad eyesight it seems .

      Is your puny little heart sore with sadness now? Lol .

      Kishimoto's words >>>>> your stupid opinion .

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    • Attention seekers be seeking lol...

      @Natrix delusional, shame. Has to resort to insults because he can't argue against me, lol. Try again guy.

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    • @ninja delusional . Overusing the attention word when in real life no one gives him attention , so he's up here hating on itachi and disagreeing with manga facts lol . Concession accepted , you lost . Can you please stop the wank and start agreeing with facts? Its not like I'm lying or anything .

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    • Yep you are. You have no facts, yet claim you do. Delusional. Immature as you repeating the words I use. Haven't hated on Itachi, just dismantling your points. No one will agree with you. You are wrong.

      Nothing will change that. I guess you still have your fan-fiction to keep you busy lol.

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    • Hungry Ghost Realm 2.0 folks.

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    • Keep being delusional together with your neighbourhood friends though . Yup you've shown good friendship disagreeing with manga facts at the same time lol . Nice harmony if thats a compliment lol . Could you reduce the wank and accept itachi is undefeatable like kishimoto said? Or continue dickriding or fit in a dozen pair of glasses in your eye sockets since you seem to difficulty in reading . Lol

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    • Hyperbull wrote:

      Hungry Ghost Realm 2.0 folks.

      Yeah, knew that when he first started posting. Just had to bring it to the light lol.

      He projecting with the insults, it's all he has shame.

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    • Is that a game? 2.0 , you mean? Looks like you're going off of topic since you cant agree to manga phax . Such a shame . Lol .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Is that a game? 2.0 , you mean? Looks like you're going off of topic since you cant agree to manga phax . Such a shame . Lol .


      This thread went off topic way before I even got here. PS: Here's a fact. Madara stomps Itachi.

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    • Lol, thanks for the entertainment ghost or natrix or whatever your name is. Forgot that people like you exist. Have fun in that made up world of yours. All your credibility just went down the drain. So find another wikia and start fresh there lol. Peace out.

      P.S. Can't wait till the moderators see this lol.

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    • Lmao what is this ninja guy even telling lol? And by the way all your credibility went down the drain , the moment you disregarded manga facts , zetsu stated itachi is completely invincible because yata has no physical form and changes shape and form to cover all sides otherwise he isnt completely invincible . Not to mention they dont have speed limit because they transcend laws of nature , so they'll easily cut through madara . When Sasuke threw kunai it changed shape . It also alters its attributes to the attack so when the snakes hit slow , it refkected slowly , when Sasuke struck the kusanagi into yata , yata reflected it with the same speed . Lmao how dare these guys outright go against manga statements lol


      HahahahahahahaHAHAHAHA what a shame , you can do nothing but throw insults lol

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    • well, that escalated quickly....

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    • I dunno what's so hard to understand in the word supernatural , you cannot attribute a limit a speed limit to something supernatural as it transcends all laws of physics and doesnt have a physical form . Stated in manga . It makes itachi undefeatable , what's so hard to understand lol ?

      Some guys are so desperate to bend things I swear .

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    • Um no, there is nothing 'supernatural' about Susanoo. It's well documented as being a construct of Chakra and has been shown to have plenty of weak points in Databooks, Manga and Anime regardless of the nature of the Blade and Mirror. Plus Itachi's Mirror doesn't provide him 360 degree protection, Itachi is not undefeatable by any measure.

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    • @_@

      This was tiring to read.

      Ya'll settle down before this gets closed.

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    • Guys guys let's go easy on @Nartix, He is new to the forum and we all should give him benefit of doubt here..
      @Natrix Spiritual Gleam Cloak
      Dude idea here is not that Itachi is invincible or not but the fact is that their isn't much canon feat to support it.Black Zetsu's statement is just a comparative statement since anyone with really good defense and offense would often be considered Essentially invincible. Even the weapons themselves haven't shown high level feats(like actually blocking some proper attack other than paper bombs in manga, or piercing some indestructible object). Heck it seems like during Itachi's fight with Orochimaru, the snakes bypassed the mirror to attack Itachi's Susanoo which should not have been the case if Databook entry was true. So it seems like its just hype like other Databook errors which have crept up or Kishimoto screwing up and forgetting about the weapons..

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    • ^^you do know that those BZ said the explanation after the snakee bypassed yata mirror right? So BZ saw it bypassed and still said itachi had a perfect defense and offense . So whats there to doubt actually . You say its hype , but the statement in the manga proves why he didnt use it against kabuto . PIS for kabuto cuz he would've been smoked if itachi brought out the mirror and blade . Even kabuto didnt use it while controlling itachi , Why? He could've used to and cut off naruto's legs's and stop the bleeding by transporting him with the king of hell .


      Star@ stop trying to act like cant read , man . I clearly said those weapons were supernatural . The reason he never uses it , PIS .

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    • plot, the to-go reason when ignoring all the context creates holes in your theory.

      Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: So BZ saw it bypassed and still said itachi had a perfect defense and offense . So whats there to doubt actually .

      Gaara's defense was called absolute, yet Sasuke pierced it. Susanoo was called an absolute defence beyond Gaara's yet, it was destroyed by Mei with ease.

      There's plenty to doubt, and plenty of reason to doubt. Yet when i give a completely reasonable explanation for why Zetsu said what he said, and point to plenty of cases where hyperbole was used, you ignore that. And yet when your theory runs into problems, you just justify it with "pis".

      It's clear from the Manga that the Databook hype is just hype. If it were so awesome, Itachi would've used it sooner. If it were without cost, Itachi would always spam it. He doesn't, so clearly more is going on. He doesn't stab Orochimaru until he's sitting still, the same way with Nagato. Evidently there's more to the blade than just striking someone. He doesn't use the shield against Chibaku Tensei, so evidently it doesn't work. If it did, he'd have used it. In stead he asks naruto how he survived. He doesn't use it against Kabuto, so clearly it didn't work against those attacks, or not as efficiently.

      I have no problem believing that there was once a version of the story where the hype was true, but it seems Kishimoto decided on a different direction when he couldn't make the story work or the tools work or whatever.

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    • ^^ manga isnt hype . No one said gaara was completely invincible. Totsuka is definitely better than the Sasuke's arrow , who fired it to kabuto . Itachi didnt even try anything with the sword . You want me to prove its PIS? Itachi couldve simply pierced the cave and sealed the entire ground and could've stolen kabuto's foothold . It can seal anything it pierces . Not just souls . Proven by how it absorbed nagato's clothes . Also BZ statement " It can pierce anything and seal anything in a world of etenal genjutsu" . Stop trying so hard , and start accepting . You're not proving anything . Comparing gaara's sand to an almighty >>>>> nunoboku no ken , weapon . Databooks say they're the matchless and the most powerful weapons along with being magical and that supported by manga cancels your hype excuse . The case of why hiruzen doesnt use all jutsu even though every fact says he can . He'd be too overpowered then . Likewise . Same scenario .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote:

      ^^ manga isnt hype . No one said gaara was completely invincible.

      I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "absolute".

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    • In manga terms , absolute is a common word used for an omnidirectional defense like gaara , SusanoO , kaiten etc . But completely invincible was only stated once . The japanese word is " kazeni mutekì" , which has only been used once in the manga . Implies perfect defense and perfect offense . No flaw whatsoever . SusanoO has flaws but is absolute meaning covers from all sides . Gaara sand also covers all sides .

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    • Having no weakness doesn't mean tk be invincible. Let us go with the mmo example and buildsm if you put in all stats an equal amount of points, woukd you have no weakness, BUT you would have no strength too.

      Madara has a wide range of jutsus, experience and and and... Kishimoto stated, that he has no weaknesses and to answer your question of how Hashirama beat Madara is simple, he simply overpowered him. Not to forget is Madara a human and by that not perfect, yet does he have no direct weakness. Genjutsus are useless against him because of his Sharingan+his Sensory Skills. He onows multiple elements, not jusr fire release. He has the perfect Susanooand doesn't suck at Genjutsu. He is good at Ken- and Taijutsu...

      This could go on. You are just riding Itachis dick.

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    • Umm...If you didnt know , Sasuke told itachi was stronger than shisui and had better shuriken skills than fugaku . I'm not an itachi fan , I'm a hardcore hashirama fan but since your biased mind likes to kick away itachi's accomplishments like trash , I'm taking his side . Lmao taijutsu? Might guy said he cannot beat three tomoe itachi , so he called backup . That should tell you something about his taijutsu . He was messing with kabuto in kenjutsu , I think that was an illusion though , ohh well . Genjutsu? Itachi can literally control people outside from sensory division , both shukaku and Ao agreed so reason to doubt . You're deliberating ignoring the dictionary definition along with manga definition along with manga fact to twist them into your beliefs . I literally hate biased individuals like you to the core . Ninjutsu? He was able to create a huge trail in the ground with just his 30% powered version . Though I agree overall ninjutsu goes to madara since he can use all five elements . Sasuke in beginning of part two admitted " Beating itachi is impossible for both of us combined" , this Sasuke was said to be threat by pain and defeated cursed seal users with powered speed and durability in a jiffy . Since there is actually no fight , itachi has been willing to go all out , there is no way to actually undermine his powers , since you havent seen his full power . In naruto , there are morals . Like madara not using tengai shinsei again and again , hiruzen not using techniques which are not his , even though he is said to be able to use it , Sasuke not using genjutsu on naruto , not even attempting etc etc , so it's an individual's moral issue . So itachi has a character who doesnt like to fight along with being kind hearted . So judging from his character , that must be the reason he never goes all out despite immense hype .

      You stop acting like a butthurt fanboy . You're riding madara's dick way too hard . Stop .

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    • A interesting fight Madara after fighting Hashirama vs Itatchi. Madara has one EMS and Itachi has two MS. Madara doesn't has Susanoo but he has the other power. And Itachi use very well the Susanno than Sasuke with two MS. And we couls also say that Sasuke with two MS was not incredible. We never see Madara with only MS really fight. It's easy to say Madara is the best with EMS because EMS has no drawback than MS.

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    • ^^ you mean madara has the weapons?

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: ^^ you mean madara has the weapons?

      Madara has many thing that Itachi couldn't have. Itachi fate was death. He couldn't be devellop. And yes Madara has weapon. We cannot compare Madara to Itachi. It's the same thing than compare Sasuke during his fight with Danzo and Sasuke at the End off the Story.

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    • ^^ if madara has the weapons , he wins of course . Cuz those weapons could do anything , as it's supernatural .

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    • Itachi is not beating Madara, end of discussion. People who seriously think that have either

      A) Not been paying any attention to the story

      B) Completely missed the part where Madara basically won the war before Kishimo-I MEAN Zetsu killed him off.

      C) Actually fooled themselves into thinking Itachi (who admits he has limits) can beat a character who Kishimoto is on record of saying has no weaknesses besides plot no juts- I MEAN the incredibly genius plot twist of Black Zetsu.

      Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biWktp72PXY and then come back to me and say with a straight face that Itachi Uchiha can beat Madara. The only way Itachi beats Madara is if he's fighting kid Madara or maybe MS Madara. But if you're seriously stating Itachi can take on EMS Madara (who went toe to toe with Hashirama the God of Shinobi) you must be reading a different Manga because I can guarantee you it is not Naruto.

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    • ^^ well , aren't you really butthurt now? I just admitted madara with weapons beats itachi in an instant . Itachi with weapons also beats madara in an instant . Naruto manga isnt all about raw power , it's about absolutes . You should stop associating naruto with dragonball . Raw power is everything only in dragonball .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: ^^ well , aren't you really butthurt now? I just admitted madara with weapons beats itachi in an instant . Itachi with weapons also beats madara in an instant . Naruto manga isnt all about raw power , it's about absolutes . You should stop associating naruto with dragonball . Raw power is everything only in dragonball .

      If you actually watched the video (and I know that you didn't) you'd know I take intelligence, ninjutsu, physical prowess, lore as well as raw power into account. Itachi does not beat Madara, there are no 'buts' or 'ifs' to be had here.

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    • ^^intelligence , power , speed , size , ninjutsu , physical attacks are useless before the weapons . The only thing which matters is who has the weapons . I know you dont like how things go but that's exactly how it goes . Also the hype is similar to hiruzen not to mention there's actually no fight(except edo) to measure his capabilities . Thing is , guy was sure he wouldnt beat itachi even with asuma as backup . So he called extra backup from konoha . Not to mention , no one knew about the MS back then , and that too the his three MS jutsus . So that'd mean itachi's taijutsu is seventh gate level , right? Since guy wouldn't die or anything , still didnt use . So as far as we know the hype is too strong . Not to mention , pain and tobi never attempted to attack konoha during his lifetime , which he admitted . Not to mention , kakashi was saying " he isnt using his full power" and still was faster than sharingan which kept up with 5 gates speed . And kakashi last saw him at 13 yrs old , so he wasnt using the full speed of his 13 year old version? Look man , if you think about this in a more unbiased way and get off the traditional viewpoint , you'd know that he is really as strong as he's hyped up to be . His weakness was his character , just like hiruzen is also being obstructed from using all his jutsus . His dislike for fighting is exactly why the hype wasn't clearly shown . Not to mention kabuto himself said itachi could've stopped the war by himself . Kabuto also kept saying itachi had everything from the start and he was genius above geniuses , so that means he has the most powerful ninjutsus? Kabuto said itachi was his most powerful edo tensei , so better than rinnegan madara? Better than the third SO6P Nagato? All these hype clearly put itachi above madara in every way to be honest . It's irritating to see some people lowballing him and highballing madara . Totsuka can simply seal the space and exterminate madara , just like the sealing pot . Madara cannot beat itachi bcuz of the weapons : CASE closed . Madara might look stronger by feats but that's just the trick of portrayal .

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    • It's not a trick of portrayal, Kabuto never said Itachi was his most powerful Edo Tensei in fact he stated Edo Madara was his 'trump card.' Nearly everything you just said is either headcanon or just not true. Itachi is not 8 gates level, 8 gates Guy was stomping Six Paths Madara so you're basically saying Itachi could stand a chance against a Jinchuriki of the Juubi...which I'm sorry is factually incorrect.

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    • Kabuto later retracted his statement . He said he underestimated itachi . Then why didnt guy simply use seventh gate there? To finish off itachi . He himself said he cant beat him so no questions , not to mention knowing itachi's power he took precautions by calling backup from konoha . And that too not knowing about his MS abilities . So he was clearly meaning three tomoe itachi was too much even for him . He even had asuma as backup yet called more ......

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Kabuto later retracted his statement . He said he underestimated itachi . Then why didnt guy simply use seventh gate there? To finish off itachi . He himself said he cant beat him so no questions , not to mention knowing itachi's power he took precautions by calling backup from konoha . And that too not knowing about his MS abilities . So he was clearly meaning three tomoe itachi was too much even for him . He even had asuma as backup yet called more ......

      Saying you underestimated someone does not equate to retracting a previous statement. Because the 8th Gate was necessary to fight Madara, even if Itachi were equal to 7 gates Guy he would still be fodderised by Six Paths Madara. Itachi Uchiha for most of the series was sick, going blind from MS and his stamina levels were appalling. Madara when physically introduced to the series is an Edo Tensei meaning he has infinite chakra and can regenerate from any attack Itachi throws at him. The only way Itachi could stand a chance is using the Blade to seal Madara however Madara has greater mobility than both Orochimaru and Nagato did. Not to mention unlike Orochimaru he is not physically attached to his Susanoo meaning even if Itachi's Blade reached Madara's Susanoo it would not seal him. Plus Madara's Perfect Susanoo makes Itachi's Final Susanoo look like a joke, not only does it have legs and is far bigger than Itachi's but it also has wings so it can fly similarly to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo.

      Now say we gave Itachi his Perfect Susanoo from Storm 4, Itachi may stand an actual chance against Madara however it should be noted that Madara also has Wood Style, Rinnegan and overall a far greater versatile arsenal than Itachi.

      So the final verdict is this and I am only going to say it once: Edo Itachi Uchiha with a Perfect Susanoo would be able to defeat EMS alive Madara and maybe if you stretch it Edo Madara though that's not 100% certain. Anything beyond Edo Madara is an instant stomp i.e. Rinnegan Madara and Juubi Madara would destroy Itachi no diff.

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    • ^^ completely ignoring everything I explained earlier and even the supernatural word meaning . Lol . Kabuto said " Itachi , you're the most suitable edo tensei ." And also " you have many powers which could've stopped this war ." And also guy's statement which sums up that itachi could easily take on madara with his speed and taijutsu and MS jutsus .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: ^^ completely ignoring everything I explained earlier and even the supernatural word meaning . Lol . Kabuto said " Itachi , you're the most suitable edo tensei ." And also " you have many powers which could've stopped this war ." And also guy's statement which sums up that itachi could easily take on madara with his speed and taijutsu and MS jutsus .

      Welp I tried to reason with this Itachi fanboy but clearly his hard on for the character stops him from engaging in any form of common sense hence why he relies solely on the word 'supernatural' because he doesn't actually have anything that resembles an actual argument. I'll let the rest of you try to talk some sense and actual factual information into them but as for me I find that there is no more entertainment to be had here.

      Oh and as a side note I didn't ignore everything you said, it's just because everything you said was utterly incorrect in every conceivable way and was actually an unforgivable bastardisation of Kishimoto's work as you deliberately twisted or ignored most if not all what you cherry picked from his story. On top of that I don't think you actually understand what makes Itachi such a good character but then again most Itachi fanboys ironically never do. Itachi is such an attractive character because he acknowledges his flaws and weaknesses, thus your attempts to wank him off into this OP version of him you have in your head fall utterly short of anything I could possibly consider a competent comprehension of the character. Madara stomps Itachi, get over it.

      ciao

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    • Lmao someone try reason , with this biased guy up here , telling I'm bastardising kishimoto's work , while you're the one who percieve everything in a bastardised way of kishimoto's work . Since you're all talk and no walk , no need to dpend my time arguing with someone like you lol . What should we expect of madara fanboys ? They think madara can stomp itachi with those supernatural weapons which doesn't have limits like you say , since kishimoto himself chose not to give it limits . But if you say it has limits and madara's puny senjutsu can overcome it , then go on .... I cant stop you from riding madara's dick since you're kinda incapable of agreeing to manga . Keep on disagreeing since that'd prove how much loyalty you've to madara . Shame . You're so butt hurt , your whole paragraph proves it lol . Lmao what should supernatural mean anyway? Is it your pet name? Lol , if the author chose to put that word , you've no right to retract it . Lmao , when I destroyed you with facts all you've left is sarcasm , I see , the tactics of the typical madara fanboy . Learn how to comprehend meanings then talk . Was this forum created by madara fanboys? Since all of these guys are so hell struck in proving madara is greater lol . These weapons dont have a physical form so intangible , not to mention it's unavoidable since it bypasses laws of physics and goes at indefinite speeds . Not to mention , itachi's taijutsu is seventh gate guy level . Honestly disappointed in these butt hurt fanboys . Itachi is not even my favourite character , it's just that your hardcore love for madara is blinding your eyes from seeing facts . I just want to clear your blinded vision , that's all .

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    • Madara vs Itachi is a nonsense match. Itachi character was never fully develop. It's the same than compare Sarada and Itachi. Sarada is a kid and Itachi is an adult. With this match it's the same thing Itachi just Ms and his fate is death. And Madara Ems (take little Brother eye) Rinnengan + Wood release (take Hashirama Dna) Rinnen-Sharingan (Take Djubii Divine tree etc).

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    • In other words, you're comparing matchup worthiness with character devolopment? Is that an excuse or is there any hidden relevance in that? I can agree that with feats alone , madara can win . But with overall manga fact compilation , itachi wins . That's all there is to it . Just a question , is there any law that says " If anyone tries debating itachi , try maximum with your 3rd grade insults and stun his debate arguments with full force " ? Like seriously lol , something's definitely wrong here , ya'll seem fixated on madara so much , it's quite irritating .

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    • Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: Lmao someone try reason , with this biased guy up here , telling I'm bastardising kishimoto's work , while you're the one who percieve everything in a bastardised way of kishimoto's work . Since you're all talk and no walk , no need to dpend my time arguing with someone like you lol . What should we expect of madara fanboys ? They think madara can stomp itachi with those supernatural weapons which doesn't have limits like you say , since kishimoto himself chose not to give it limits . But if you say it has limits and madara's puny senjutsu can overcome it , then go on .... I cant stop you from riding madara's dick since you're kinda incapable of agreeing to manga . Keep on disagreeing since that'd prove how much loyalty you've to madara . Shame . You're so butt hurt , your whole paragraph proves it lol . Lmao what should supernatural mean anyway? Is it your pet name? Lol , if the author chose to put that word , you've no right to retract it . Lmao , when I destroyed you with facts all you've left is sarcasm , I see , the tactics of the typical madara fanboy . Learn how to comprehend meanings then talk . Was this forum created by madara fanboys? Since all of these guys are so hell struck in proving madara is greater lol . These weapons dont have a physical form so intangible , not to mention it's unavoidable since it bypasses laws of physics and goes at indefinite speeds . Not to mention , itachi's taijutsu is seventh gate guy level . Honestly disappointed in these butt hurt fanboys . Itachi is not even my favourite character , it's just that your hardcore love for madara is blinding your eyes from seeing facts . I just want to clear your blinded vision , that's all .

      People are trying to reason with your bias. Pretty much no one agrees with most of what you're saying. It seems you're the blinded one.

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