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  • Something I've been thinking about lately... So as we all know, users with transplanted eyes do not compare to the eyes' original owner in power and so on. Nagato with Madara's Rinnegan, while highly proficient, still couldn't do things Madara could with the eyes. Madara regaining both of his eyes was regarded as something to be feared, while Nagato had both and it wasn't noted to be a big deal. Obito could handle only one of Madara's eyes and the power and usage were far below that of both Nagato and Madara.

    With the known and obvious out of the way, let's look not only at Madara, but Sasuke as well. So technically, Madara's eyes are not even his own, but Izuna's, while Sasuke's belonged to Itachi. So Madara's eyes are basically this:

    • Izuna's cells
    • Izuna's chakra, or at least Sharingan chakra
    • Madara's own chakra or at least Sharingan chakra
    • Indra's chakra
    • Asura's chakra

    Sasuke's eyes are:

    • Itachi's cells
    • Itachi's chakra or at least Sharingan chakra
    • Sasuke's own chakra or at least Sharingan chakra
    • Indra's chakra
    • Asura's chakra
    Or both merged into one, simply Hagoromo's chakra

    More complex than it seems at first isn't it... so with that out of the way, there are two things that I wonder about. First, If Izuna were to be alive and to take Madara's eyes, thus his own eyes back, would the 'Eternal' part of the Mangekyou be retained or would it revert back to Izuna's own Mangekyou Sharingan? Second, would Izuna be equally compatible and powerful with Madara's Rinnegan as is Madara or not, since the eyeballs are Izuna's own, thus, while the Rinnegan part of the eyes isn't his, he is still technically the eyes' true/real/original owner.

    The Sasuke/Itachi case is the same as above, so no need to write it again.


    /opinions?

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    • Well, not sure about Izuna retaining an EMS part of his own eyes after their possession by Madara, but as for me, Izuna wouldn't be able to handle these eyes in Rinnegan form as masterfully as Madara if they were to return to him. My point is that technically it was Madara who developed these eyes into Rinnegan, not Izuna, thus he is the original owner of the newly-awakened Rinnegan, not Izuna. This developement wouldn't even be possible without Madara taking part in it since he's the inheritor of Indra's chakra, one of the necessary components for the Rinnegan to emerge. As such, I mean that Izuna's eyes with Madara as an owner went far beyond the level they reached when they stayed by Izuna, and because this power wouldn't be natural for Izuna himself, he would never achieve the same skill as Madara in wielding these Rinnegan-turned eyes, though he'd still be able to use them like Nagato or Obito did.

      In general, I can summarise my opinion like that: the original owner of a certain doujutsu isn't necessary the one whom the eyes themselves naturally belong to, but the one who awakened these eyes into the said doujutsu (i.e. Madara is the original owner of the EMS awakened from Izuna's eyes and the original owner of the Rinnegan awakened from Indra's + Asura's chakra mix, or Sasuke is..., or Toneri is the original owner of the Tenseigan awakened through Hanabi's eyes etc), regardless if he used some external means like eyes/DNA transplantation or not.

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    • But would izuna have hashis cells like madara?

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: In general, I can summarise my opinion like that: the original owner of a certain doujutsu isn't necessary the one whom the eyes themselves naturally belong to, but the one who awakened these eyes into the said doujutsu

      I want to add to this.

      The origin of the rinnegan lies with Ashura and Indra chakra. Specifically, combining these two chakras causes a reaction that turns it back to Hagoromo's. Not unlike how the Biju reform into the Juubi. That means that when Madara took in Hashi's cells, his own chakra changed to become Hagoromo's.

      The second important keystone is that the EMS are physically transplanted eyes (Sasuke does say to Edotachi "these are your eyes"). We know from Minato and Naruto that each shinobi has a specific "chakra" (represented as a shape) and that transferring chakra requires you to change it to the receiver's "shape". One can thus argue that an EMS is formed when the donor's chakra type is compatible with that of the acceptor, which is the sibling/close relative requirement. The reason it doesn't blind is that the combined chakra is apparently strong enough to resist blindness effects.

      Thus we can connect these two pieces: When Madara took in Izuna's eyes, they essentially became his own eyes since their chakras are compatible. And when he took in Hashirama's cells, they transformed his chakra into Hagoromo's chakra. Since his chakra is also present in Izuna's eyes, they turned into Rinnegan. Note that when Madara had regular sharingan in his eyes, they didn't turn to rinnegan since they aren't compatible in the same way.

      All that rests is to reverse the reasoning: If Madara returns Izuna's eyes, Izuna's own chakra would be present and he would be able to use EMS. After all, if EMS works one way it should work the other way too. Madara's chakra would still be present in the eye. The Rinnegan however exists due to Madara's contribution, and the rest of Izuna's body would not possess the same Six Paths chakra. Thus, while he would likely be able to control the eye on a level that other transplanters could not, he won't be the True Owner of the eye.

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    • So you think that Izuna and Itachi would't be able to use the Rinnegan as well as Madara and Sasuke respectively, but still better than anyone else would? For the EMS, I wonder if the design would change. Sasuke's EMS looks like his MS with Itachi's put in. So if Itachi were to take back his eyes, would the design remain or would it look more like his own with less resemblance to Sasuke's? Or would Itachi need to take Sasuke's original eyes for different design? Really mysterious and interesting stuff.

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    • Yeah, that's already an issue, no idea how the EMS eyes would look and work like if they were to return to their natural owner. I'm not completely sure if the EMS would be retained, since it's obviously the combination of two chakra types (from the one who got the eyes transplanted and the one whose eyes are transplanted) which makes it possible to strengthen the MS, both in actual power and in sense that it eliminates the blindness drawback completely. So, it depends if Madara's/Sasuke's chakra would stay in Izuna's/Itachi's eyes even after their return to the latter two, though it's quite likely, I guess. Regarding the design, I think that the original MS pattern of the user always stays as a dominant one, which means that Izuna's/Itachi's (E)MS should reform its design in the way their MS pattern would become a primary pattern, with Madara's/Sasuke's one turning into a supplementary pattern, so it's a vice versa case of the actual EMS of Madara/Sasuke.

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    • Elveonora wrote:

      So you think that Izuna and Itachi would't be able to use the Rinnegan as well as Madara and Sasuke respectively, but still better than anyone else would?

      Basically, yes. After all the Rinnegan part isn't their own power. Even without the Rinnegan, Madara would still have Six Paths chakra and a considerable amount of power, exactly as we saw him have as an Edo Tensei and as an eyeless Rinne tensei.

      Still, the eye that transformed is their eye, and their chakra is compatible which is what made the EMS a thing in the first place. So while they aren't quite a true owner, they nevertheless would be able to use the eye on a high level. Compare this to say Nagato who had no compatibility with either EMS or Rinnegan and so needed years before he could access it's power properly. Obito could access more power from the start since he had Uchiha blood and Hashirama's cells (he had much less time than Nagato to learn it though). Extrapolating, the relatives of Rinnegan users would be significantly better at using these eyes, and those who can share eyes would be one step below True Owners.

      Elveonora wrote: For the EMS, I wonder if the design would change. Sasuke's EMS looks like his MS with Itachi's put in. So if Itachi were to take back his eyes, would the design remain or would it look more like his own with less resemblance to Sasuke's? Or would Itachi need to take Sasuke's original eyes for different design? Really mysterious and interesting stuff.

      I think it makes sense that that whatever chakra gets overpowered, is what takes on the lesser form. IE Itachi's eye produces chakra since it's actual flesh, but Sasuke's body contains far more cells and thus his chakra would overpower Itachi's. So, the EMS is Sasuke's power (the eye power got overwritten to become Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi and not Tsukuyome/Amaterasu) with Itachi's power subservient. The EMS design is Sasuke's design with Itachi's as a detail.

      The thing i do wonder is whether this effect is reversed, and i think two answers exist. If the eye is returned quickly then the EMS would reverse, as whatever chakra Sasuke put into this would quickly fade and so Itachi would have his regular eye again. The other answer is that it seems that if the eye exists as EMS long enough, it would be imprinted with Sasuke's chakra and so the EMS status would be maintained. We saw that Obito was able to Pseudo-Edo tensei himself to Kakashi, and Kakashi had his eye for years and so Obito's chakra left an imprint. Gaara was Shukaku's jinchuriki for years and so his chakra left an imprint, allowing him to extract Shukaku despite not being jinchuriki for months (and so whatever chakra he possessed as a Jinchuriki was refreshed). Despite being transplants, Nagato was Edo Tensei'd with Rinnegan, so the rinnegan's chakra left an imprint in Nagato.

      This leaves me with the final question, namely what will it look like. I honestly don't know. The imprint argument suggests the eye stays the same. The Subservience argument suggests the shape would invert. I cannot think of any proof or evidence or even a hint about something that connects these two arguments, something that hints about which one would be stronger.

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    • @Elvernora yes izuna and itachi would use it better than everyone else(other than true rinnegan owners)duo to them being half way to gaining rinnegan(being uchihas).

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    • Well, I think that Itachi/Izuna would be still at a disadvantage in wielding Rinnegan compared to even Obito. Let's put it simple: these two have only a regular Uchiha chakra, not Indra's chakra (because they aren't his reincarnates). Although Obito possessed a similar regular chakra, he had an addition of Hashi's artificial body, i.e. a source of Asura's chakra. I admit that the eyes' previous homage by Itachi/Izuna could probably make their adjustment to the Rinnegan easier, yet chakra-wise, they have neither Indra's nor Asura's chakra or DNA traits, while it seems that only people with these traits should be more prone to the Rinnegan use.

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    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: @Elvernora yes izuna and itachi would use it better than everyone else(other than true rinnegan owners)duo to them being half way to gaining rinnegan(being uchihas).

      Only transmigrants possess half the requirements of the Rinnegan. Regular Uchiha and regular Senju can't awaken it. By the blood-relation argument they're much better at it than someone not from those clans, but they aren't halfway towards a rinnegan.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, I think that Itachi/Izuna would be still at a disadvantage in wielding Rinnegan compared to even Obito. Let's put it simple: these two have only a regular Uchiha chakra, not Indra's chakra (because they aren't his reincarnates). Although Obito possessed a similar regular chakra, he had an addition of Hashi's artificial body, i.e. a source of Asura's chakra. I admit that the eyes' previous homage by Itachi/Izuna could probably make their adjustment to the Rinnegan easier, yet chakra-wise, they have neither Indra's nor Asura's chakra or DNA traits, while it seems that only people with these traits should be more prone to the Rinnegan use.

      That's an interesting point, hadn't considered that. Yea it's definitely an interesting idea: does being a blood relative count more or less than being a transmigrant?

      That being said, Izuna is a blood relative of Madara, who is a transmigrant. So while Izuna doesn't have that power, he still is compatible with Madara's chakra, and logically should be even when Madara transforms it to Six paths chakra. So Izuna isn't entirely a regular shinobi in this.

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    • Another interesting thing, if Izuna had taken Madara's eyes instead and subsequently obtained Hashirama's cells thus Asura's chakra, would have he awakened the Rinnegan? Same for Itachi if he had indeed taken Sasuke's eyes and then got a hold of Asura's chakra by means of Hashirama's cells or Naruto's etc.

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    • @Elveonora I'm pretty sure he would be able to awaken the Rinnegan. You just need the chakra of the Sage's sons to awaken the Rinnegan. Every cell in the body contains chakra, so no matter what body part who get from Asura's and Indra's reincarnation, the chakra will merge and you end up getting the Rinnegan

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    • Well, I'm not so sure about it. Maybe, Madara's/Sasuke's (and thus Indra's) chakra would stay in these eyes anyway, but it wouldn't be a large quantity of it, and after recalling how long it took even for Madara, the true inheritor of Indra's chakra, to get the mix of his and Hashi's (i.e. Asura's) chakra to awaken the Rinnegan, I somewhat doubt that Izuna or Itachi could really achieve the Rinnegan during their natural lifespan, even if it would've been longer for them than in the present storyline.

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    • I don't know but is sasuke's case valid in this scenario? I mean sasuke's rinnegan was gifted by the sage right?
      So either Itachi should be gifted that rinnegan or something I guess..

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    • imo, it would make sense for itachi and izuna to be better at using their pre-owned eyes better, since the eyes are theirs after all. but, one thing I must say, is that both madara and sasuke have more chakra quantity, and chakra compatibility than itachi and izuna. this would give them an edge, but ability-wise, itachi and izuna would better at using them. now, I heard something bout nagato not having the uchiha chakra to control it well (the rinne), but he did have it. what do u people think a sharingan is? he had uchiha chakra to make him kinda compatible, since the eyes he got were madara's. @namikaze, I have theory that sasuke got his base rinne by kabuto's side of the chakra/dna donation, and got the other (different/extraordinary) parts (aka tomoe and change-in-place teleportation) by having hago's chakra 'injected' into him.

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    • But if he got his rinnegan from kabuto, Than he should have gotten rinnegan in the old age and a dual one at that. But instead he got one and besides didn't transmigration occur in current reincarnations?That means Sasuke would get rinnegan only when he takes dna from naruto..

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    • firstly, I forgot to mention that hago's chakra probably accelerated the maturing process of the rinne. and secondly, dna is dna. that's the thing... it almost never changes.

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    • Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: firstly, I forgot to mention that hago's chakra probably accelerated the maturing process of the rinne. and secondly, dna is dna. that's the thing... it almost never changes.

      come on even if acceleration took place why single rinnegan? why not dual? And besides if sasuke really had hashi's cells he hasn't shown wood release. So this is moot point.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Another interesting thing, if Izuna had taken Madara's eyes instead and subsequently obtained Hashirama's cells thus Asura's chakra, would have he awakened the Rinnegan? Same for Itachi if he had indeed taken Sasuke's eyes and then got a hold of Asura's chakra by means of Hashirama's cells or Naruto's etc.

      With the information we have, the answer would be yes. But just his eyes would transform, he would thus be more akin to Nagato than Madara himself.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, I'm not so sure about it. Maybe, Madara's/Sasuke's (and thus Indra's) chakra would stay in these eyes anyway, but it wouldn't be a large quantity of it, and after recalling how long it took even for Madara, the true inheritor of Indra's chakra, to get the mix of his and Hashi's (i.e. Asura's) chakra to awaken the Rinnegan, I somewhat doubt that Izuna or Itachi could really achieve the Rinnegan during their natural lifespan, even if it would've been longer for them than in the present storyline.

      I think it took this long because madara had very little of Hashirama's cells. He had only bitten off a tiny piece and used it on his wounds.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: I don't know but is sasuke's case valid in this scenario? I mean sasuke's rinnegan was gifted by the sage right?
      So either Itachi should be gifted that rinnegan or something I guess..

      Sasuke possesses the natural ability to awaken the Rinnegan, since he met the conditions. But as can be seen with madara, it takes a while. The Sage simply made that process faster while also ensuring his Mangekyou could be used alongside it. That he only has one is also likely the Sage's doing, since it would prevent him from taking Madara's place.

      Lorenzo.r.1st wrote:

      what do u people think a sharingan is? he had uchiha chakra to make him kinda compatible, since the eyes he got were madara's.

      His eyes are a foreign organ. Obito's own body is Uchiha, so it's accustomed to having dojutsu. It's the body part that needs to be of a similar clan in order to properly use the rinnegan.

      Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: and secondly, dna is dna. that's the thing... it almost never changes.

      Specific forms of chakra seem to take a role similar to DNA and if that chakra changes, apparently so does the DNA. The reverse is also true: Changes in DNA result in changes in chakra (See: Kabuto). Else, the Rinnegan awakening would never work.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: come on even if acceleration took place why single rinnegan? why not dual? And besides if sasuke really had hashi's cells he hasn't shown wood release. So this is moot point.

      He was probably injected with Zetsu cells, which show no meaningful control over wood release. Obito controlled wood release when supercharged by Spiral zetsu, and we already saw that that zetu can also increase Yamato's power. The single Rinnegan is so he can't take Madara's place, since you probably need dual rinnegan to get Rinne Sharingan. Since Hagoromo would be stupid not to realize Sasuke would fight afterwards, he probably also consciously limited his power.

      it's not exactly clear what Kabuto's final intent was with Sasuke (other than to make him awaken the rinnegan, since that was clearly the plan). But we've seen that Zetsu material is much better for healing (non-hashirama) stuff than Hashirama's primary cells because those cells aren't aggressive (IE Danzo nearly died when Hashi's cells were unrestrained, yet Obito could control half a zetsu body as a kid. He also can't freely use wood release. Neither can Naruto or Sasuke, suggesting those arms and injections are Zetsu injections/arms)

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    • Just because they have hashis cells does not meant they can use wood realease.

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    • why is that? Madara could do it, obito too.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: why is that? Madara could do it, obito too.

      They had little amount of it?

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    • little amount of what? Didn't both of them have hashirama cells. And they can use wood release.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: little amount of what? Didn't both of them have hashirama cells. And they can use wood release.

      They havent shown to do so.

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    • you are seriously claiming that madara and obito can't use wood release ? So who was toying with 5-kages using wood release?

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    • U relaize i am talking about naruto and sasuke right?

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    • didn't realize it..
      though in naruto and sasuke's case I am guessing they never tried it.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: why is that? Madara could do it, obito too.

      Danzo had the cells and couldn't. The zetsu had the cells and couldn't.

      But like i said, Kabuto probably used Zetsu cells, and we've seen that they are much weaker with wood release while still possessing considerable healing capacity. There could be multiple reasons for this, but it's possible Kabuto had no access to Hashirama cells after Orochimaru died (or Orochimaru no longer had access after he left the village). It could explain why he was so eager to work on Zetsu and "improving them" despite no apparent change.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: why is that? Madara could do it, obito too.

      Danzo had the cells and couldn't. The zetsu had the cells and couldn't.

      Didn't Danzo used wood style once? That tree came out if I remember.
      Zetsus could use it if he got someone else chakra(like BZ, Obito or Yamato)
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    • Um, you are wrong Kill. Danzo did indeed use Wood Release, but it started to take over afterwards and he was forced to cut his arm. Zetsu can also use Wood Release, Tobi to high extent, at least while powered by Yamato, Black Zetsu used Wood Release while attached to White Zetsu mass and last time I checked, Mayfly is currently listed as Wood Release as well, for some reason.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Um, you are wrong Kill. Danzo did indeed use Wood Release, but it started to take over afterwards and he was forced to cut his arm.

      He doesn't use it like Yamato does. The tree he grew is more akin to the Zetsu spiralling out of control due to Kurama's chakra. It's not exactly the refined control people are talking about here. Besides we know from the Yamato experiment that Hashi's cells will become plantlife on their own when they spiral out of control, so Danzo's use was more akin to releasing his grip on the cells rather than actual proper wood release like Yamato.

      The Zetsu themselves never use wood release, only Spiral Zetsu was able to use it in conjuction with another Wood Release user, either Obito or Yamato. This suggests that while the ability is present in Zetsu, it's in a much weaker form. As far as i can remember, encased by Spiral Zetsu is the only time Obito used wood release.

      Because of this, it seems logical to me that Naruto and Sasuke received some of those Zetsu cells, granting them the healing and use of prosthetics without the easy (or rather: Overwhelming) use of wood release.

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    • Obito used Wood Release during 4th ninja war to impale Neji and others. Also Naruto's prosthetic was clearly mentioned to be made of Hashirama's cells, no Zetsu mention.

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    • Naruto would definitely be able to control Hashi's cells 'cuz of many reasons ie strong life force, Ashura part, SPS chakra ...

      He can use all elements after all but wasn't shown using any beside wind after the war. My guess is that he just never tried, it's not his style or he didn't have proper chance to show it. Same goes for WR.

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    • Thekillman wrote: The Zetsu themselves never use wood release, only Spiral Zetsu was able to use it in conjuction with another Wood Release user, either Obito or Yamato. This suggests that while the ability is present in Zetsu, it's in a much weaker form. As far as i can remember, encased by Spiral Zetsu is the only time Obito used wood release.

      For white zetsus my guess is that they don't have much chakra of their own and hence they can use wood release in conjunction with someone else as shown in the series.

      Thekillman wrote:

      Because of this, it seems logical to me that Naruto and Sasuke received some of those Zetsu cells, granting them the healing and use of prosthetics without the easy (or rather: Overwhelming) use of wood release.

      Oro got his wood release from zetsus by the way...
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    • Which he never used as well. So the most logical conclusion is that they simply didn't have a chance to use it or it's not their style.

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    • Guys, I think you should get back on the topic. The thread itself isn't about Hashi's DNA and Wood Release, but about the aspects of doujutsu ownership.

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    • Obito has half his body as Hashi DNA implanted so he can use wood release, Danzo had a Hashi face on his shoulder so he could use wood release, Madara had a hashi face implanted on his chest so he could use wood release by kabuto. If you don't have a Hashi face or a zetsu/hashirama clones's body parts you can't use Wood release. Back to the eyes thing.. the dna and chakra are always left in the eyes to a degree, so Izuna and Itachi should be able to use the eyes as if they were their own eyes. They should get the EMS too since the eyes chakra has merged. Therefor they could take their eyes back and be just fine with them.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Back to the eyes thing.. the dna and chakra are always left in the eyes to a degree, so Izuna and Itachi should be able to use the eyes as if they were their own eyes. They should get the EMS too since the eyes chakra has merged. Therefor they could take their eyes back and be just fine with them.

      Yea but the part that transforms into the rinnegan isn't due to Izuna/Itachi chakra but rather due to the chakra from Madara/Sasuke. So even if they take it back, the Rinnegan part isn't really their eye, it's Madara/Sasuke's eye. They would also not possess the six paths chakra in their entire body, since it's only the eye that would've undergone transformation and they themselves are not transmigrants.

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    • So when it comes to Sharingan powers and genetic compatibility, they would be the true owners, but the Rinnegan part would be akin to Nagato's case, but considering even he could use the eyes to great extent despite not having Sharingan and the eyes not being his, I can imagine Izuna and Itachi's usage of the Rinnegan superior to even Nagato.

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    • I don't think so, they don't have the Uzumaki/Senju body.. Nagato does.. Obito had Hashi cells but could only handle one eye.. and he is also an Uchiha.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: I don't think so, they don't have the Uzumaki/Senju body.. Nagato does.. Obito had Hashi cells but could only handle one eye.. and he is also an Uchiha.

      Obito put the eye in his socket and immediately started to control six Biju. Nagato took years to even manifest serious Rinnegan powers.

      I've said this before: If Nagato can control the Rinnegan because he's an Uzumaki, then Obito is doubly capable of using the Rinnegan. The difference between the two is simple: time. Decades of time.

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    • Wasn't obito the one who taught nagato to control the rinnegan?
      Also I think Obito was attached to his original mangeykyou which was why I think he didn't take the second rinnegan. Also I do want to point out that obito Has both components required for rinnegan. The uchiha heritage(his birth right) And Hashirama's cells the Senju heritage.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Wasn't obito the one who taught nagato to control the rinnegan?
      Also I think Obito was attached to his original mangeykyou which was why I think he didn't take the second rinnegan. Also I do want to point out that obito Has both components required for rinnegan. The uchiha heritage(his birth right) And Hashirama's cells the Senju heritage.

      Uchiha heritage isn't enough. You need to be a transmigrant for the Rinnegan.

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    • Didn't obito become one when he transplanted hashirama's cells?

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Didn't obito become one when he transplanted hashirama's cells?

      No

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Didn't obito become one when he transplanted hashirama's cells?

      No

      why not?

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    • Either way, Obito got a new half of his body made from Hashi's DNA, who both stemmed from Senju (and thus had their powerful life force) and was an Asura reincarnate (and thus had his chakra). Add this to his Uchiha (though non-Indra's) chakra, and pure logic will allow you to see that he should've been more suitable candidate for the Rinnegan than Nagato who possessed only the life force of Senju (as an Uzumaki) without even having the chakra of Asura himself and of course without Uchiha chakra.

      To put it simple, Uchiha chakra + Senju life force + Asura's chakra of Obito > Senju life force of Nagato.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Didn't obito become one when he transplanted hashirama's cells?

      No. A transmigrant has the power of Indra or Ashura in their soul, and via that it is their own power. Obito possessed Hashirama's cells, but not Madara's, and the Rinnegan is a source of power and six paths chakra, but it doesn't make you a True owner (IE a hagoromo transmigrant). Else, obito's own mangekyou would've turned Rinnegan

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    • @killman
      obito is a transmigrant technically since he has hashirama's power.(Ashura's power). And even if obito would have gotten the rinnegan it would have happened in old age.

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    • yeah, I was gonna say that. but yet again, nagato does have uchiha, like I said before. the rinne he got not only was a rinne, a but a sharingan as well. that's uchiha chakra right there. ps, I think that the uzumaki had even stronger life force than the senju.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @killman
      obito is a transmigrant technically since he has hashirama's power.(Ashura's power). And even if obito would have gotten the rinnegan it would have happened in old age.

      Obtaining the power of a transmigrant doesn't make you a transmigrant. By that logic, Jinchurikis are Tailed Beasts since they literally contain the power of Tailed Beasts

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    • lol dude, u need some better examples... but, unfortunately u are both right. @ultima, yes, by that logic, such a thing would be possible. but that's the point. look at gaara and Naruto. both had the bijuu chakra and powers, all their lives. Naruto is closer to kurama, physically and chakra wise, than any other human being. he has the whisker marks, and kurama's chakra by default, while gaara has 'sand release', which is something unique to shukaku, and something he posses even after losing shukaku. and why do u think a ttj changes apearence? cuz he's becoming the bijuu whose power is so great that a normal human body cant handle (and when madara became kaguya, even that same body couldn't handle her power). and so, this might mean that a since he has transmigrant chakra and dna, he became a super semi-transmigrant. see my point?

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @killman
      obito is a transmigrant technically since he has hashirama's power.(Ashura's power). And even if obito would have gotten the rinnegan it would have happened in old age.

      Obtaining the power of a transmigrant doesn't make you a transmigrant. By that logic, Jinchurikis are Tailed Beasts since they literally contain the power of Tailed Beasts

      why do you think that obito's relation with Hashirama is similar to the Jinchuriki's relation with tailed beasts?

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: why do you think that obito's relation with Hashirama is similar to the Jinchuriki's relation with tailed beasts?

      You can't be this dense. Obito obtained the power of Hashirama just like how the Jinchurikis obtain the power of the Tailed Beasts

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: why do you think that obito's relation with Hashirama is similar to the Jinchuriki's relation with tailed beasts?

      You can't be this dense. Obito obtained the power of Hashirama just like how the Jinchurikis obtain the power of the Tailed Beasts

      So is hashirama alive inside obito or something? like how TB is in a jinchuriki?
      Obito using hashirama's power is fundamentally different from a jinchuriki.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: So is hashirama alive inside obito or something? like how TB is in a jinchuriki?
      Obito using hashirama's power is fundamentally different from a jinchuriki.

      The logic still follows. Obito gaining the power of Hashirama, therefore Asura's chakra, doesn't make him a transmigrant just like how Jinchurikis gaining the power of Tailed Beasts doesn't make them Tailed Beasts. Do you understand what I'm saying?

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    • @Namikazenaruto9 its like saying if you are transmigrant and i have your arm makes me one too.

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    • Yet Nagato had both Rinnegan eyes, and Obito said quite clearly to Sakura that he could not handle both eyes, and could barely handle one. Obito himself said it. Therefor Nagato is a better host for the Rinnegan.. also Obito controlled the TB with his Sharingan, not the Rinnegan.. so using that was just way wrong. Nagato is better with the Rinnegan and if Obito actually taught him the things he used in the 4th War, then Nagato would have used them. The only reason Nagato did not use the things Madara and Obito used was because he didn't know they existed, how to use them, and was not taught. How is this not simple for you all??

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    • @QuakingStar Wait wait, what is the things that Obito used in the 4th war but Nagato didn't know and was not taught? As far as i know, only Madara used that "other things" that Nagato didn't know how to use. Sorry if this is a silly question, i simply don't remember.

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    • Obito actually did use the Rinnegan as well as Sharingan to control the tailed beasts, since it's apparently required to send chakra to the black stakes in their hearts and manifest the chakra chains to suppress them. The only time he explicitly uses the Sharingan on the beasts is when he suppresses Five-Tails after it turns on him, as we actually see the Sharingan appear in its eye. In fact, despite only having one Rinnegan, Obito claims his Outer Path binding power is much stronger than Nagato's (for some reason). Really wish that plot point had been elaborated on more though, the "body" half of the Sage's power making a better host for the Rinnegan than the "eye" half has never made any sense to me, especially since Obito had mastered control of Hashirama's cells.

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    • Neither the "body" half and the "eye" half should have better control of the Rinnegan. If both of the transmigrants awaken the Rinnegan and have it around the same time, they should have the same amount of control over the Rinnegan. After all, chakra from both of the sons are needed to awaken it

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    • BeyondRed wrote: In fact, despite only having one Rinnegan, Obito claims his Outer Path binding power is much stronger than Nagato's (for some reason). Really wish that plot point had been elaborated on more though

      Nagato had dozens of black rods in each body, and needed to pierce pressure points to immobilize and restrict use of jutsu.

      Obito's rods were so strong that merely touching them created a powerful binding, and he was able to create strong binding chains from each as well. Not just that, but he both bound the Biju to the Gedo Statue as well as to the Edo Tensei.

      Lastly, Obito's Six Paths of Pain weren't dead bodies that he puppeted: he was forcing his control onto the Edo Tensei as well as the Biju sealed inside them. Compared to that, Nagato's Paths were child's play.

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    • You do realize the jutsu that was used for the bindings and the chakra chains jutsu were not taught to Nagato right? he didn't use them because he didn't know they existed. Obito isn't better with Rinnegan, he just knew more.

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    • Well, do you realise that if Obito said "this binding is superior to Nagato's", it means that Nagato could use something like this, and otherwise Obito wouldn't even have made any comparison at all?

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    • Not true at all. It is superior because it is a better technique. Madara didn't teach Obito Limbo or Tengai Shinsei, and Obito didn't teach Nagato many things. It's withheld info.

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    • It's not necessary the point of being teached or not being teached. I mean, look at MS users, has anyone else taught them their techniques? No, they have had to explore the abilities of their doujutsu on their own and successfuly mastered these abilities completely. For example, Itachi didn't teach Amaterasu to Sasuke, as well as Obito didn't teach Kamui to Kakashi, did it prevent both Sasuke and Kakashi from mastering the techniques on their own? Okay, Madara mentioned he taught Six Paths techniques to Obito, but Obito didn't even possess the Rinnegan back then, he still had to invoke its abilities by himself when he finally got it.

      To sum up, either Nagato or Obito could've easily used Limbo (a Rinnegan technique) had they been the true owners, since a true owner is fine with using all the doujutsu abilities just intuitively.

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    • Another reason. Plot. If Nagato had Limbo, Tengai, or the enhanced chakra chains or control techs he would have caught Naruto(and the second time around also B) but plot demanded Nagato not use those techs.

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    • Yeah, and the plot as well. Since both Obito and Madara + Sasuke used almost nothing from the Six Paths Rinnegan arsenal Nagato himself demonstrated, I think it's just the thing about not repeating the same abilities by the different Rinnegan users over and over again.

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    • yeah, I actually got pissed at the waste of rinne powers and material. why make it, if theyre not gonna use it?

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    • Seriously,sasuke only used Preta path vs naruto twice.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Another reason. Plot. If Nagato had Limbo, Tengai, or the enhanced chakra chains or control techs he would have caught Naruto(and the second time around also B) but plot demanded Nagato not use those techs.

      Why would Madara divulge all his secrets? It's clear he didn't tell about Limbo because it was his biggest advantage. Everything has a reason. You just don't like the reason.

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    • I honestly don't care. I was only clarifying that he didn't use the techs because of not knowing about them, and plot.

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    • As I already said, he hasn't necessary had to know about the techs beforehand to use them by himself, it's rather a plot reason.

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: As I already said, he hasn't necessary had to know about the techs beforehand to use them by himself, it's rather a plot reason.

      It took Kakashi years if not decades to figure out the Mangekyou part of his Sharingan, and even more years to even use it properly. Even then he must've found it out in order to reduce the cost of using it.

      If Nagato had no reason to believe Limbo existed, and had no reason to seek out greater powers, what are the chances that he accidentally finds out about such a powerful technique?

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    • the power of the sharingan isn't actually really housed in the eye but the brain of the uchiha. its true the eyes have some of said chakra but an uchiha would none the less till have access to the sharingan chakra in their brain even without eyes. so in theory a blind uchiha could just still someone elses eyes and then send sharingan chakra from their brain to the new eyes and awaken the Sharingan in the new eyes.

      with that being said when izuna gave his eyes to madara the EMS came about when Madara activated izuna's mangekyou along with his own mangekyou at the same time. so the EMS is the combination of the two uchiha's mangekyou when these two powers merge the eye head chakra evolves. in theory if izuna was revived and madara gave his eyes to Izuna the eyes would still contain the power of the Rinnegan in them but would izuna be able to control that power? doubt he would. even with hashirama's cells making up most of his body obito had a hard time controlling a single eye

      as for all of the so in so is an asura transmigrant because they have hashirama's cells thats b.s.

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    • An interesting question. When Madara took Obito's eye, he could use Kamui, suggesting the power is housed in the eye. In that case, why can't Sasuke use Tsukuyomi with Itachi's eyes?

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    • Elveonora wrote: An interesting question. When Madara took Obito's eye, he could use Kamui, suggesting the power is housed in the eye. In that case, why can't Sasuke use Tsukuyomi with Itachi's eyes?

      Madara didn't allowed any chance for the eye merger which happens in EMS.(the few days of eye covering ritual.) And two their was no scope of EMS considering the two aren't close relatives
      Had Sasuke tried to use Itachi's eyes directly he might have been able to use the jutsu(like madara) but instead he goes for the EMS eye merger. Which is why I think sasuke is incapable of using Tsukuyomi I guess.

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    • well, its seems that either u get ems (an eternal ms), or a temporary power up (u can get two different ms abilities). and 90 percent of all ms powers are limited by the eyes themselves (tsukuymi: u need to make eye contact, amaterasu: u need to look at the target, kamui: to look at the target as well, and last but not least, shisui's eye: shisui himself says that his eye needs to charge so that his abilities can be used).

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    • Elveonora wrote: An interesting question. When Madara took Obito's eye, he could use Kamui, suggesting the power is housed in the eye. In that case, why can't Sasuke use Tsukuyomi with Itachi's eyes?

      When Sasuke implanted Itachi's eyes into his own, Itachi's eyes were adapted to fit the powers of Sasuke's eyes. So Sasuke can only use his own MS techniques. This is entirely different than Madara's case, where he simply implanted Obito's eye into his eye socket. Obito's eye did not go through any changes

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    • No, Sasuke tried Tsukuyomi on Danzo, Danzo said he sucked at it and Itachi was so much better than him at it, it was like comparing the sky to the ground. Sasuke's usage of Tsukuyomi is no better than his normal genjutsu, so after that he stops using it.

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    • Sure that was just genjutsu: Sharingan

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    • Nope, Danzo never compared Sasuke's Tsukuyomi to Itachi's. That was a translation error in the vein of Shisui being that other dude's son.

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    • Mhm I see..

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    • Seelentau wrote: Nope, Danzo never compared Sasuke's Tsukuyomi to Itachi's. That was a translation error in the vein of Shisui being that other dude's son.

      I thought it was Shisui being just Kagami's descendant, and not specifically his son?

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    • Besided, back on the eye topic, there's a question connected to it that has bothered me for a while. During the clash of Sasuke against Madara, after the latter was Rinne Tensei'ed and lost his fake Edo Rinnegan, he was musing that till he got his real eyes back, he could use Sasuke's eyes instead. In the other scene, when TTJ Madara saw Sasuke's Rinnegan and realised there's some connection between them beyong the blood ties, he tried to steal Sasuke's left eye as a replacement for his own left Rinnegan. Both the cases were never expanded further, and the first one could be just a figure of speech (i.e. for Madara "using Sasuke's eyes instead" = trying to get him join his side), but I wonder what would've happened had Madara really layed a hand on Sasuke's eyes, either on his both EMS eyes or on his left Rinnegan.

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    • Interesting. While not siblings, they are both Indra incarnates, so perhaps it would have resulted in some kind of reaction, like Super Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan :D

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    • Elveonora wrote: Interesting. While not siblings, they are both Indra incarnates, so perhaps it would have resulted in some kind of reaction, like Super Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan :D

      It's fun to speculate, but going by my earlier arguments it would either stay an EMS for a while or Madara would overwrite it into a Madara/Itachi EMS.

      But Madara was already kicking ass pretty hard, so the main outcome of Madara getting eyes is that he would be even harder to beat (imagine Juubi Jin Madara with Amenotejikara)

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      Seelentau wrote: Nope, Danzo never compared Sasuke's Tsukuyomi to Itachi's. That was a translation error in the vein of Shisui being that other dude's son.

      I thought it was Shisui being just Kagami's descendant, and not specifically his son?

      That's what I said.

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    • Madara swaps places with limbo uses lighting attack then teleports behind naruto and sasuke and cuts their heads off :P

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    • Elveonora wrote: Interesting. While not siblings, they are both Indra incarnates, so perhaps it would have resulted in some kind of reaction, like Super Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan :D

      they weren't.
      Didn't hagoromo said something along the lines that Madara wasn't indra reincarnate anymore rather he was his(hagoromo )'s reincarnate?

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    • he never even thought that. where did u get that from? its basically saying that madara was reincarnated while being alive.

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    • Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: he never even thought that. where did u get that from? its basically saying that madara was reincarnated while being alive.

      when he was talking about how madara escaped transmigration(by taking hashirama's cells I guess..

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      when he was talking about how madara escaped transmigration(by taking hashirama's cells I guess..

      "now that his transmigration is over, he's trying to use the Juubi to get close to me".

      That's the line you're looking for. But yes by all accounts, Madara is no longer an Indra transmigrant as a Rinne Tensei, because Indra is with Sasuke.

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    • That doesn't mean his chakra changed or anything, just that Indra's soul is in Sasuke.

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    • When you break it down like this, it feels even more complicated than it appeared at first. Could Obito's eye power could of taken out Madara?

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    • Not a thread for this, but after reading few post about transmigrancy it got me thinking ... Being transmigrant doesn't grant you any power, rather their essence and potential. Since Indra and Ashura both chose target to reincarnate, they chose the ones with potential similar to theirs.

      Madara is example of this, Sasuke became transmigrant but Madara was still as strong as ever, having already awaken potential he was born with.

      Having sad this, IMO Naruto and Sasuke would be as strong as they were up to Hagoromos involment even if they weren't transmigrants. They just wouldn't be capable of awakening Rinnegan and SPSM, but up to EMS and Sage Kurama Mode they are on their own, with or without being transmigrant. So, it's not like Naruto or Sasuke have advantage in VS battles just because they are transmigrants, they are still themselves, if we are talking about their versions before Hags powerups ofc ...

      Considering this wasn't already established, or it's just me that had the wrong idea all along LOL

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    • Daywakler wrote:

      Not a thread for this, but after reading few post about transmigrancy it got me thinking ... Being transmigrant doesn't grant you any power, rather their essence and potential. Since Indra and Ashura both chose target to reincarnate, they chose the ones with potential similar to theirs.

      We've seen repeatedly that being possessed by a spirit grants you it's power. So no, Naruto and Sasuke did get their respective Transmigrant's power. However it seems that similar to being a jinchuriki, it takes time for this power to manifest and for the Transmigrant to learn to control this power.

      Daywakler wrote: Madara is example of this, Sasuke became transmigrant but Madara was still as strong as ever, having already awaken potential he was born with.

      Considering my earlier "marking" argument, i would say that eventually the transmigrant's power becomes their own. it does seem however that Madara lost some of his power (Noticeable absence of Mangekyou powers for instance), so i think his transmigration was really over.

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    • Being transmigrant makes your chakra stronger too.Look at the wiki about sasukes and madaras chakra reservers.

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    • Reserves and strength of chakra are two different things. Although it is heavily implied the strength and reserves are enhanced due to being a transmigrant.

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    • I have my very own theory on how it works. Basically, Asura and Indra work sort of like 3rd parent to an incarnate, chakra wise. In short, Madara's chakra is part his father's, part his mother's and part Indra's. Likewise, Naruto's chakra is part Kushina's, part Minato's and part Asura's.

      That's why Naruto-Hashirama, Sasuke-Madara have different chakra signatures. It also explains why Naruto seemingly inherited much less of Asura's power than Hashirama, parts of Minato and Kushina's chakras simply overwrote most of Asura's, meaning Naruto inherited less traits and power from Asura than his parents, while Hashirama seemingly inherited more.

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    • May be the case. Nice theory.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I have my very own theory on how it works. Basically, Asura and Indra work sort of like 3rd parent to an incarnate, chakra wise. In short, Madara's chakra is part his father's, part his mother's and part Indra's. Likewise, Naruto's chakra is part Kushina's, part Minato's and part Asura's.

      Makes sense.

      I think however that while Naruto does fully possess Ashura, his power doesn't manifest properly due to mutually exclusive abilities. IE Kurama already provides naruto with a strong and large mass of Chakra, so he does not get Ashura's level of reserves naturally. So it's not so much that it was overwritten, but rather that Ashura's power has to compete against other power. In that regard, i think Kurama is the primary reason Naruto seems like a relatively weak Ashura. Kurama is in a sense very similar to Ashura: a transmigrating being of pure chakra that grants power to the person he is sealed in. Kurama's strong presence is there from the start, whereas Ashura's power is something that has to mature. So Ashura's power never got to fully manifest because Kurama's immense power takes precedence.

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    • @Daywalker it was never said that ashura/indra choose those with the same potential,but rather very similiar personality/situation they live in.

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    • indra and asura's souls do not migrate, their chakra does and solely their chakra. hagoromo didn't say,"after my sons bodies were destroyed their souls transmigrated across time periodically inhabitting someone's body" he said when my sons died their chakra did not die with them, instead it transmigrated to their decendents" meaning the only thing that is in naruto and sasuke is indra and asura's chakra

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    • Except the databook says it's souls as well.

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    • A FANDOM user
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