Fandom

Narutopedia

Obito (before the 4 war) and Itachi (no illness) vs Madara (EMS)

  • All powers are included. They know about each other.

      Loading editor
    • Obito and itachi.

        Loading editor
    • Perfect susanoo, 'nuff said.

        Loading editor
    • and you think that Madara win?

        Loading editor
    • Raw power isnt everything.

        Loading editor
    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Raw power isnt everything.

      since when Madara only have raw power,hashirama had much more and still madara could battle him for 24 hours straight.

        Loading editor
    • Ok what can they do to madara exactly?

        Loading editor
    • they got nothing tht can dmg the ps so yeah gg

        Loading editor
    • They dont really need to,obito cant get hit by i,itachi is smart and he can just keep distance.

        Loading editor
    • ofc they can keep distance against the ps sword shockwaves

        Loading editor
    • isn't other way round true too? How will madara harm them?

      Narutopwnu7 wrote:

      Kakashisologod1 wrote: Raw power isnt everything.

      since when Madara only have raw power,hashirama had much more and still madara could battle him for 24 hours straight.

      Madara didn't battle him alone he had kurama. So no he can't fight for 24 hours straight.
        Loading editor
    • What madara can do exactly?

        Loading editor
    • that's my question...

        Loading editor
    • Madara picks up itachi's susanoo with his perfect susanoo and he smashes the part of the susanoo thats not covered by the yata mirror. Obito can't hurt madara if he's going intangible, he has to materialize to deal any damage and he can't do any damage to madara while materialized as madara is more skilled in hand to hand combat than obito is.

        Loading editor
    • @Lorenzo VonMT
      Let's keep itachi aside for few secs
      Madara's PS isn't going harm obito no matter what he does. same goes for his other jutsus. Also Obito can be partially intangible while fighting, And Don't forget what would happen to madara if Obito uses Uchiha reflection on PS's strike.

        Loading editor
    • You just write about Madara offensive, but what about his defence?

        Loading editor
    • isnt PS a perfect deffense itself? thus they got no way to take down PS gg for Madara

      oh forgot to say if this is obito before 4 war he dosent have Madaras weapon to preform uchiha reflecteon

        Loading editor
    • than which obito you are talking about? teen obito? The one who fought minato?

        Loading editor
    • e.g when he fight against Konan, that Obito, how Madara will protect by Kamui?

        Loading editor
    • obtio that use to watch fight between danzo and sasuke.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote:

      isnt PS a perfect deffense itself? thus they got no way to take down PS gg for Madara
      I am betting on the stamina. PS require lot-lot more stamina than kamui. Madara is gonna run out of juice

      Killer723 wrote: oh forgot to say if this is obito before 4 war he dosent have Madaras weapon to preform uchiha reflecteon

      He had the weapon even when he fought minato. So now also he may have it. But anyways it was said that he stored all weapons in kamui dimension.(a trick he learnt from minato who created safehouses throughout the village).

        Loading editor
    • Obito probably can broke Madara PS like Tsunade

        Loading editor
    • you sure? Because I don't remember any feat.

        Loading editor
    • my bad, that wasn't PS

        Loading editor
    • Uchiha reflection may destroy it though.

        Loading editor
    • @Namikazenaruto9

      Theres no evidence that Uchiha reflection can reflect something with the magnitude of a perfect susanoo strike that flattens multiple mountains. If you said the yata mirror could do that, fine because it was said to reflect all attacks but nothing like that was said for uchiha reflection. Moreover, obito cannot hurt madara if he goes intangible all the time as shown by obito's mini fight against guy. He also can't be partially intangible. This was made clear during his fight with minato and kakashi, guy and naruto.

      And are you seriouly trying to argue that madara would run out of chakra before itachi does? Madara once fought against tobirama and hashirama for a whole day while using PS chapter 624 page 14, not to mention the EMS doesn't drain nearly as much chakra as the MS does. Madara has them beat in the chakra department.

        Loading editor
    • ^guy just explained

        Loading editor
    • @Lorenzo VonMT
      Uchiha reflection reflected Tailed beast bomb. So doo you still think it can't reflect the attack.
      He can be partially intangible. IF you don't believe me it check the fight between Kakashi,guy and Naruto VS Obito Or obito's page.
      I never brought itachi into discussion. you are the one who is bringing him repeatedly. He didn't fight alone he fought with kurama. Madara would lose considering his PS takes more chakra than kamui.

        Loading editor
    • @namikazenaruto Madara was the one who blocked tailed beast bomb , its a huge difference between Madara and obito , who barley blocked rasengan.

      PS is needed to safely kill Itachi , then after that he can easily deal with obito.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: @namikazenaruto Madara was the one who blocked tailed beast bomb , its a huge difference between Madara and obito , who barley blocked rasengan.

      PS is needed to safely kill Itachi , then after that he can easily deal with obito.

      Obito knows the jutsu enough said. I would say obito's chakra reserves are superior to EMS madara

      Before you go around saying that you should know he fought 3 vs 1 and against someone who can negate his abilities.
      I am keeping Itachi for now since I want to prove Obito is stronger than EMS madara. Itachi is used for final blow if needed.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @Lorenzo VonMT
      Uchiha reflection reflected Tailed beast bomb. So doo you still think it can't reflect the attack.
      He can be partially intangible. IF you don't believe me it check the fight between Kakashi,guy and Naruto VS Obito Or obito's page.
      I never brought itachi into discussion. you are the one who is bringing him repeatedly. He didn't fight alone he fought with kurama. Madara would lose considering his PS takes more chakra than kamui.

      The tailed beast bomb naruto fired cannot destroy 4 mountains like madara's PS strike. I did watch Obito vs kakashi, guy, naruto and every time obito tried to suck someone into kamui, another person would land a hit on him forcing him to go intangible, which means he can't attack while being intangible. In the fight in chapter 624 madara didn't have kurama, thats a different fight you're thinking about. Scroll through the whole chapter and see if madara used kurama. He fought for a whole day using noting but EMS, obito and itachi don't have such feats.

      After madara kills itachi with his perfect susanoo, he wouldn't need it anymore to fight obito since theres no point in using it against someone with intangibility. Madara would eventually beat obito in an extended fight since obito needs to be tangible to deal any damage and since madara is better at taijutsu and ninjutsu.

        Loading editor
    • all right and after they figured out how to counter his ability what happen then ?

      and can you tell me what have obito specifically done after he lost his edo bodies? ( all ive seen was trowing shurikens from kamui and deffense 24/7 ) nothing at all , not even close to EMS Madara , exept for being able to control all those jinkurikis with one eye thats one impressive feat.But it cant be much of a help here.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote:

      The tailed beast bomb naruto fired cannot destroy 4 mountains like madara's PS strike.
      It wasn't single strike. And two It can.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: I did watch Obito vs kakashi, guy, naruto and every time obito tried to suck someone into kamui, another person would land a hit on him forcing him to go intangible, which means he can't attack while being intangible.

      Come on man can't you just check the page. I am not feeling like checking for the episode right now.
      Episode 362, Kakashi's Resolve. Kurama throws kakashi on obito who dumps him in kamui. When Naruto tries to use chakra arm on his abdomen, Obito teleports his stomach to kamui which is punched by Kakashi.
      Their now are you happy, I described whole scenario.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: In the fight in chapter 624 madara didn't have kurama, thats a different fight you're thinking about. Scroll through the whole chapter and see if madara used kurama. He fought for a whole day using noting but EMS, obito and itachi don't have such feats.

      Obito needs no feat. He has Hashirama's cells.
      He didn't fight through the night. at best it was 12 hrs.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Madara would eventually beat obito in an extended fight since obito needs to be tangible to deal any damage and since madara is better at taijutsu and ninjutsu.

      He won't. Obito isn't going to get tired for obvious reasons. Plus He's equally strong(may be stronger since he matched BM Naruto in taijutsu) and in ninjutsu(check 4th Databook entry about him and madara.)

      Killer723 wrote: all right and after they figured out how to counter his ability what happen then ?

      Madara can't counter his abilities. No matte what he does.

      Killer723 wrote: and can you tell me what have obito specifically done after he lost his edo bodies? ( all ive seen was trowing shurikens from kamui and deffense 24/7 ) nothing at all , not even close to EMS Madara , exept for being able to control all those jinkurikis with one eye thats one impressive feat.But it cant be much of a help here.

      he fought Naruto and bee; Than Guy, Kakashi and naruto were fighting him at same time still they didn't win despite having the COUNTER to his ability. Finally He fought death match with kakashi, came out shook madara's manipulation like an ace and became TTJ. Was all this less impressive?

        Loading editor
    • you forgot to say lost to kakashi in hand to hand combat,even obito himself admited he lost.

      making constant pressure for 5 minute , he is only limited to be 5 minute inside kamui and Madara with his susano is more then enough to keep constant 5 minute pressure on him.

      Once kamui runs out tobi is dead.

        Loading editor
    • I don't remember obito losing? Didn't he reveal later on that it was part of his plan? Since he had to become TTJ he tricked kakashi to remove forbidden tag.
      How is the Susanoo going to keep continuous 5 min pressure? As if that slow shit can do that. Better prepare the god of dojutsu to die because of chakra exhaustion.

        Loading editor
    • i didnt meant forming susano and chase obtio :D , susano will assist him if obito somehow gets madaras blindspot , either to block attack or to counterattack , just skeleton body around him with arms once he comes , so you got Madara attack, susano attack, madara attack, susano attack.Obito attack counter attack simple.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: i didnt meant forming susano and chase obtio :D , susano will assist him if obito somehow gets madaras blindspot , either to block attack or to counterattack , just skeleton body around him with arms once he comes , so you got Madara attack, susano attack, madara attack, susano attack.Obito attack counter attack simple.

      But problem is Uchiha reflection. Obito reverses attack immediately. Eventually breaking Susanoo. It's one of the reasons why nobody could beat him even after knowing his secret(Danzo, Sasuke recovery team, Raikage, Sasuke and so on) Madara needs kakashi to counter attack or atleast partner to win this fight.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: you forgot to say lost to kakashi in hand to hand combat,even obito himself admited he lost.

      making constant pressure for 5 minute , he is only limited to be 5 minute inside kamui and Madara with his susano is more then enough to keep constant 5 minute pressure on him.

      Once kamui runs out tobi is dead.

      As much as i love kakashi,obito let him win :(

        Loading editor
    • Obito cannot be partially intangible. If people are slipping through his arm, he cannot us his other fist to strike them. If he's using intangibility on any part of his body, the rest of his body isn't tangible either.

      I think Obito lost the fight, really. In the end, he couldn't land a death blow on Kakashi. But also keep in mind that Obito was fighting like, EVERYONE before he fought Kakashi. It's understandable that he'd be off his game. Fresh Obito beats fresh Kakashi just fine.

      Anyways, on the debate, wasn't Obito noted to be Madara's near mirror in terms of abilities? Obito shouldn't be underestimated; even people who knew Madara, like Onoki, believed he was Madara. team Obito and Itachi have a much better chance than I think a lot of you are giving em credit for.

        Loading editor
    • @AsianReaper
      But than why have they mentioned in the wiki that he can partially be intangible?
      And I did mention the episode so...

        Loading editor
    • @AsianReaper just like u said,he was considered VOTE2 madaras equal with one rinnegan,kakashi shouldev had lost that fight soooo hard.

        Loading editor
    • There is battle between Obito and Itachi vs Madara, not Obito vs Madara so..

        Loading editor
    • well Obito with rinnegan that controls 6 jinchurikis , sure he is on Madaras level , even above he got broken jutsu , and on top of that 6 immortal body keepable of destroying almost anything.

      but here we are talking about obito who can only shoot shurikens from an eye or try to land a fist hit on Madara , just like he tried to hit Fu.

      and when i take a look how he fought fu and torune , when he tried to hit Fu , and if thats gonna be his counter attack on Madara , or something close to it , am sorry i still dont know how obito gonna win this.

      well in my scenario Itachi is dead from PS shockwave , but what if obito use Kamui on itachi and force Madara to undo PS and Try to Use itachi just like Kakashi did to 8 tail , hmm Itachi would fast adapt , but would that be enough hmm i dont know.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      It wasn't single strike. And two It can.

      Just because you say it can doesn't magically mean it will since you're not backing up your claims with evidence. That mini beast bomb naruto fired has never shown anything close to the destructive capability of a perfect susanoo strike.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Come on man can't you just check the page. I am not feeling like checking for the episode right now.
      Episode 362, Kakashi's Resolve. Kurama throws kakashi on obito who dumps him in kamui. When Naruto tries to use chakra arm on his abdomen, Obito teleports his stomach to kamui which is punched by Kakashi. Their now are you happy, I described whole scenario.

      You're not understanding his powers, Obito can't attack if he's intangible because his whole body becomes intangible. When Fuu and Torune fought him in chapter 475 page 5, Torune said "His whole body becomes untouchable when he uses that technique for defense, and he solidifies it again to connect with attacks" Obito then says "Well done. That was a comprehensive analysis". So even obito confirms it. End of story.

      Obito needs no feat. He has Hashirama's cells.
      He didn't fight through the night. at best it was 12 hrs.

      Hashirama said they fought for a Whole day meaning 24 hours. There goes your claim that obito would outlast madara.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: He won't. Obito isn't going to get tired for obvious reasons. Plus He's equally strong(may be stronger since he matched BM Naruto in taijutsu) and in ninjutsu(check 4th Databook entry about him and madara.)

      Obito didn't match naruto in taijutsu, he was just using kamui to evade all his attacks. Obito was about equal to kakashi in taijutsu even though he left kakashi win, it doesn't mean he was letting himself get punched around the whole fight. He only let kakashi land a blow on his heart, the rest of the fight he was actually trying. Madara would win in an extended fight because obito needs to materialize to attack, and he can only keep kamui going for 5 minutes which means madara could pressure him and until the time limit runs out and then beat him since madara has better feats in all areas. Only option obito has is to retreat.

        Loading editor
    • What if Obito use Kurama, not Madara?

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Just because you say it can doesn't magically mean it will since you're not backing up your claims with evidence. That mini beast bomb naruto fired has never shown anything close to the destructive capability of a perfect susanoo strike.

      UBBR is supposed to be capable of destroying Mountains too. Compare that with Bijudama
      Plus since you brought the destructive power in the picture you should be the one to provide the limit of Uchiha Reflection. Their was no limit stated so don't bring stuff which you cannot back with facts.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: You're not understanding his powers, Obito can't attack if he's intangible because his whole body becomes intangible. When Fuu and Torune fought him in chapter 475 page 5, Torune said "His whole body becomes untouchable when he uses that technique for defense, and he solidifies it again to connect with attacks" Obito then says "Well done. That was a comprehensive analysis". So even obito confirms it. End of story.

      Here IS Obito Uchiha's Page. Now Check Mangeykyou section IT's clearly written he can teleport only those parts which are under attack and can go for the further hit with other tangible parts. Plus I already gave the Episode where he does it.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Hashirama said they fought for a Whole day meaning 24 hours. There goes your claim that obito would outlast madara.

      Are you having problems in comprehending? Obito has hashirama's cells. Hashirama outlasted madara. So Obito too can outlast him.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Obito didn't match naruto in taijutsu, he was just using kamui to evade all his attacks.

      He did exchange taijutsu blows with naruto and was able to keep up with him.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote:

      Obito was about equal to kakashi in taijutsu even though he left kakashi win, it doesn't mean he was letting himself get punched around the whole fight. He only let kakashi land a blow on his heart, the rest of the fight he was actually trying.
      A fight in which Obito doesn't uses Rinnegan Or Kamui OR Wood Release OR Enhanced strength of Hashirama.(I.e. His arm imbubed with hashi's cells has superhuman feats even for ninja)

      If obito was trying he might not have let kakashi live. Even if you say their Taijutsu skill level was same, Obito had raw power which he clearly didn't use.

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Madara would win in an extended fight because obito needs to materialize to attack, and he can only keep kamui going for 5 minutes which means madara could pressure him and until the time limit runs out and then beat him since madara has better feats in all areas. Only option obito has is to retreat.

      How the heck is he gonna pressure? I already told you Madara 's Susanoo is too slow to continuously attack him for that duration. IF madara goes for taijutsu He risks losing since Obito can use Wood Release: Cutting Technique killing him instantly. Ninjutsu is just waste of chakra for Madara
        Loading editor
    • @namikaze there are alot of things i would like to state , but now i have no time gonna come later , but for now just to state obito dosent have control over wood style , and tehnique you linked were used by white zetsu , not by obito himself , zetsu stated no wonder Madara choosen you , bla bla bla it was so obivious they want to use him.

      one more thing no , once obito teleport one part of his body he wont be able to touch you , watch closly the fight whenever his body part gets inside kamui he moves aside to catch naruto , and he dosent have uchiha refleciton here , this is not rinne obito.

      well if you say its all stored inside his kamui hmm i wonder about that , you are able to see that weapon once obito leaves madaras cave with white zetsu body , and thats same hideout obito is using so maybe weapons still remain in hideout.


      oh also this is from Madara wiki Madara's years of experience on the battlefield honed his strategic ingenuity. He could quickly devise a number of approaches and could switch approaches immediately. The longer he spent against a particular opponent, the less he needed backup tactics, as he could eventually predict what they would do and identify literal or psychological weaknesses to exploit. He could form and verify any theories he comes up with using small details.[93] In addition to his sheer adaptability, Madara was knowledgeable on a large variety of individuals and abilities, and thus could identify techniques when used and react with the most appropriate counter to them.

        Loading editor
    • He had uchiha reflection, but he didnt use that before the war

        Loading editor
    • he had rinnegan as well , and yet he didnt use it before the war right ? :)

        Loading editor
    • You are ironic, arent you?

        Loading editor
    • ah look its your post , people asked which version of obito you said , the one that fought konan. So does obito that fought konan use to wear weapon that can cause uchiha reflection ? i would say no. Does obito that fought konan had his purple suit with a mask , that he himself claimed its way stronger then his previous mask , and said he made that mask specifically for war , you yourself said its obito before 4 great ninja war.

        Loading editor
    • and if he didnt use tool, that doesent mean that he dont have that. I said Konan for example. Look at post, this is fight between ITACHI and Obito vs Madara, and you just write about Obito and Madara..

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      UBBR is supposed to be capable of destroying Mountains too. Compare that with Bijudama Plus since you brought the destructive power in the picture you should be the one to provide the limit of Uchiha Reflection. Their was no limit stated so don't bring stuff which you cannot back with facts.

      What the heck is UBBR? Either way, it doesn't matter because naruto's mini bijuu bomb does not have the capability to destroy 3-4 mountains because it has never shown anything close to that. You are the one that claims that uchiha reflection can reflect a perfect susanoo strike, therefore the burden of the proof is on You to prove that it can, which you are failing to do btw. Just because no one ever said theres a limit doesn't mean theres no limit for crying out loud, no one in the manga even talked about the jutsu at all. If you're not gonna support your arguments with facts then I'm not gonna bother with this conversation.

      Here IS Obito Uchiha's Page. Now Check Mangeykyou section IT's clearly written he can teleport only those parts which are under attack and can go for the further hit with other tangible parts. Plus I already gave the Episode where he does it.

      Still missing the point, even though he teleports the part of his body thats under attack, the rest of his body still becomes intangible, like its clearly stated in chapter 475 page 5.

      Are you having problems in comprehending? Obito has hashirama's cells. Hashirama outlasted madara. So Obito too can outlast him.

      I could ask you the same thing tbh. Having hashirama's cells =/= having hashirama's body. Edo madara had hashirama's cells but yet edo hashirama still kicked his ass. So no, obito cannot outlast hashirama.

      He did exchange taijutsu blows with naruto and was able to keep up with him.

      Nah, there was no hand to hand combat involved, obito was just using kamui to evade naruto's attacks.

      A fight in which Obito doesn't uses Rinnegan Or Kamui OR Wood Release OR Enhanced strength of Hashirama.(I.e. His arm imbubed with hashi's cells has superhuman feats even for ninja)

      First of all I'm only comparing their taijutsu skills so all those abilities are irrelevant. Moreover, where does it state that having hashirama's cells give you enhanced strength because I don't recall any of the other users of hashirama's cells having enhanced strength. Hashirama himself never even showed this enhanced strength so I don't know where you're getting this from.

      How the heck is he gonna pressure? I already told you Madara 's Susanoo is too slow to continuously attack him for that duration. IF madara goes for taijutsu He risks losing since Obito can use Wood Release: Cutting Technique killing him instantly. Ninjutsu is just waste of chakra for Madara

      First of all, I already told you that madara won't need susanoo to fight obito as obito could just phase through all his attacks, this will come down to a battle of ninjutsu and taijutsu. The cutting technique will only work if it lands on madara and since madara has the sharingan's predictive ability as well as better taijutsu along with susanoo, I don't see anyway obito would land that. Obito can't attack and defend at the same time, since madara is superior to him, he is more than capable enough to pressure obito for 5 minutes using taijutsu and ninjutsu unless obito decides to retreat.

        Loading editor
    • UBBR is ultra big ball rasengan,the one jiraya used vs pains but that got absorbed.

        Loading editor
    • As everyone has been saying @NamikazeNaruto, even though only parts of his body are sent to the other dimension, the rest of his body is unable to touch anything because he's entirely intangible now

        Loading editor
    • Madara wins handidly for a few reasons. Madara quickly deduced the ability of Obito's eye and knew that it offered intangibility but it's weakness is that he's vulnerable when he goes for an attack. Madara is quicker and a better tactician than Obito, he'd simply exploit the fact that Obito can't harm him unless in return he made himself vulnerable.

      Itachi is no diff, Madara could do anything to destroy him. Summon PS and stomp onto him. Also for those arguing that Madara would run out of "juice." Please keep in mind that he fought Hashirama for 24 hours while using PS and wielding the Kyuubi. Especially considering Itachi has horrible stamina so if anyone would get outlasted it'd certainly be Itachi.

        Loading editor
    • Nobody is saying madara will get out of chakra though,i agree madara wins but u are underestimating itachi.

        Loading editor
    • @Kakashisologod1 I'm not, it's just Madara is on an entirely different level in comparison and is literally superior to Itachi in every aspect. Speed, strength, battle experience, chakra, stamina, visual prowess. I doubt there's anything Itachi has that Madara hasn't seen or overcame before (Amateratsu, inferior Susano'o, Tsukyomi.) Itachi's sealing blade won't be able to touch Madara in PS due to it's massive size. They could both literally sit in their Susano'o and Itachi's would be down far before Madara's due to his lack of stamina/low chakra reserves in comparison.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote:

      Especially considering Itachi has horrible stamina so if anyone would get outlasted it'd certainly be Itachi.
      

      I said no illness

        Loading editor
    • Not faster,not more inteligent.But yeah,vs itachi he wins.Vs both of them mid-high diff.

        Loading editor
    • He got eternal Ms spent his whole life fighting and had more time for his visual prowess to evolve. While itachi who is genjtusu user and dont relies much on h2h combat , well i dont kinda think he can match Madara in speed , if it comes to intelligence well i cant even say that itachi got more than Madara , i even think that Madara is inferior if it comes to battle intelligence.

      in any terms Madara is itachi +++ if it comes down to their abilities

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote:

      XShadyShadow wrote:

      Especially considering Itachi has horrible stamina so if anyone would get outlasted it'd certainly be Itachi.
      

      I said no illness

      He still has bad stamina.

        Loading editor
    • Obito has already been noted to be Madara's near equal when Madara was alive in terms of abilities. Combined with Itachi, I think they'd take it high difficulty.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote:

      Madara wins handidly for a few reasons. Madara quickly deduced the ability of Obito's eye and knew that it offered intangibility but it's weakness is that he's vulnerable when he goes for an attack. Madara is quicker and a better tactician than Obito, he'd simply exploit the fact that Obito can't harm him unless in return he made himself vulnerable.
      How is madara better tactician? Especially when databook puts obito as madara's mirror image.
      I think itachi showed his prowess against fair amount of people, and each time he was able to read them completely. Madara isn't going to have any edge in intelligence department for sure.
      Obito was the one who pointed out that despite knowing how kamui works their is still no chance of beating the tech unless he has the other "eye"

      XShadyShadow wrote: Itachi is no diff, Madara could do anything to destroy him. Summon PS and stomp onto him. Also for those arguing that Madara would run out of "juice." Please keep in mind that he fought Hashirama for 24 hours while using PS and wielding the Kyuubi. Especially considering Itachi has horrible stamina so if anyone would get outlasted it'd certainly be Itachi.

      Madara doesn't has a PS. Stop giving him stuff which he hasn't shown in the series. And he fought hashirama after using kurama to try and tire him out and it's chakra enhancement to even have a fighting chance against Hashirama. That's a plus for hashirama not madara.
        Loading editor
    • O well so now people gonna claim that EMS Madara has no PS  :)))))

        Loading editor
    • @AsianReaper Please point me to where it states that Obito is nearly equal to EMS Madara. Perhaps in terms of intelligence, only due to Madara actually teaching him but in regards to everything else Madara is far superior. Obito is no where near EMS Madara, neither is Itachi. Madara wins with Mid difficulty and that's being generous to the duo.

      @Namikazenaruto9 I think the better question is how isn't Madara a better tactician than Obito? The databook putting Obito's photo as Madara's was only because he was assumed as Madara at that time and him being there literally proves nothing. Madara EASILY has the edge in intelligence department, the gap in knowledge is vast. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal that Madara hasn't seen before or has full knowledge about, as I've stated prior. Maybe the exception of Yata mirror but even Orochimaru was aware of it, I highly doubt Madara would be clueless regarding it. Intelligence doesn't even matter to be frank, the gap of power/skil between Madara and Itachi is too vast.

      And what're you talking about? EMS Madara HAS a PS,he's the first Uchiha we've seen with it, he gained it with EMS after Izuna died and proceeded to fight the Senju with it. He has shown PS, I'm gonna need for you to take several seats because you really don't know what you're talking about. You're so misinformed, he fought Hashirama together with Kurama/PS to increase his odds at beating him, how do you know he used the Kyuubi but claim Madara doesn't have PS? No, using the Kyuubi is a plus for Madara because it's in his arsenal to fight with. Kyuubi >>> Itachi. Please, I want you to argue for Obito&Itachi's case when Madara has activated PS while wielding the Kyuubi.

        Loading editor
    • Itachi one shots kyuubi with genjutsu.

        Loading editor
    • @Kakashisologod1 Itachi isn't one-shotting Kyuubi if it's under Madara's control.

        Loading editor
    • i thought u meant 1vs1.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote:

      @Namikazenaruto9 Madara EASILY has the edge in intelligence department, the gap in knowledge is vast. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal that Madara hasn't seen before or has full knowledge about, as I've stated prior.
      Their are quite a few things Madara hasn't seen which are in his arsenal.
      1)Tsukuyomi
      2)The invincible combo of TB and YM
      And His skill of soul peering which I would say is his greatest weapon.

      XShadyShadow wrote:

      Maybe the exception of Yata mirror but even Orochimaru was aware of it, I highly doubt Madara would be clueless regarding it. Intelligence doesn't even matter to be frank, the gap of power/skil between Madara and Itachi is too vast.
      Is madara Orochimaaru? Because Orochimaaru made it his study to know everything abt this world(actually every jutsu) I don't remember Madara dedicating himself to such cause. Also Madara's knowledge is only limited to that stone tablet and the battle experience with senju's. Well infact based on that Itachi made Orochimaaru bite dust in few secs despite the alleged superiority of the former. It's just that his

      ability to read the soul's intent more than compensates for that so called lack of skills.

      XShadyShadow wrote: And what're you talking about? EMS Madara HAS a PS,he's the first Uchiha we've seen with it, he gained it with EMS after Izuna died and proceeded to fight the Senju with it. He has shown PS, I'm gonna need for you to take several seats because you really don't know what you're talking about. You're so misinformed, he fought Hashirama together with Kurama/PS to increase his odds at beating him, how do you know he used the Kyuubi but claim Madara doesn't have PS? No, using the Kyuubi is a plus for Madara because it's in his arsenal to fight with. Kyuubi >>> Itachi. Please, I want you to argue for Obito&Itachi's case when Madara has activated PS while wielding the Kyuubi.

      I am not misinformed my dear friend. Just being skeptical. Because their is no canon source to your PS business. You see that fight(hashirama Vs Madara) was a filler and cannot be counted for the canon. Also when he fought hashirama in VOTE the Susanoo was being enhanced by kurama's chakra and the only other time he used PS(against 5-kages)in canon was when he was enhanced with Hashirama's cells. It's clear without enhancement Madara can't use PS.
      And why are you adding Kyubi>>>Itachi doesn't makes sense considering the power to control Kurama is just to obtain Mangekyou(clearly stated by both madara and itachi in the series). So what's stopping Obito and Itachi from freeing kyubi from madara's control and using it against him? Especially considering obito already controlled Kyubi once.
        Loading editor
    • @NamikazeNaruto9 1)Are you serious? You think Madara has no knowledge about Tsukuyomi? He had full knowledge about Amateratsu and Susano'o, Tsukuyomi naturally falls in line. My point still stands.

      2) Here we go with this Itachi wanking nonsense again, Itachi's yata mirror DOES not make him invincible. That statement was only a hyperbole, Itachi doesn't compare to Naruto top tiers. (Hashirama, Madara, etc.)

      Madara doesn't need to dedicate to himself to such a cause because he's lived far longer than Orochimaru and has far more experience than he does. Madara's knowledge extends further than that considering he was able to read that the Allied Shinobi's forces were of different nations purely based on their attire without being alive during said time. Not only this but Orochimaru hasn't been able to decipher the Uchiha stone tablet but Madara has, so ironically in your attempt to argue Madara lacks knowledge you just proved he's smarter than Orochimaru. You know what else he gathered his knowledge from? The Uchiha as well, so that disproves your argument of Madara not knowing Tsukuyomi. You're disproving yourself really, and you're naive if you think Itachi is the first Uchiha to wield Tsukuyomi.

      Orochimaru was never and isn't superior to Itachi, please stop making up stuff. And yes, Itachi lacks skill in comparison to Madara. Madara is a legendary Uchiha, it's leader at some point. He even had a statue at the VOTE, their in two different leagues.

      You are very, very misinformed and what's saddening is that you don't even realize it. There is very much so canon source to Madara using PS in EMS, considering the VOTE between Madara and Hashirama appeared in-manga therefore canon. Anything that has appeared in manga is canon, Manga chapter 626 to be specific, it was a flashback.Also fyi, gaining Hashirama enhancements wouldn't give you PS, to further prove you wrong. Sasuke himself noted that him and Naruto did what Madara did against Hashirama when they combined Susano'o and Kurama, in which he was told such by Hashirama to further prove it's authenticity. Madara himself has said that it's power rivals tailed beasts, how would he know that if he hadn't used it before being Edo? That's a very poor argument, it's common knowledge that Madara in EMS form wields PS. Kurama didn't enhance Madara's Susano'o, as Hashirama stated Madara used PS to shield Kurama from it's tailed beast bomb.

      I don't wanna hear that argument again, it's obvious EMS Madara had PS and everyone knows it. Don't troll. What's stopping Obito and Itachi from taking the Kyuubi from Madara? Are you serious? Maybe because Madara's ocular prowess dwarfs that of Obito and Itachi? Also considering he has the better/stronger chakra than the both of them, being Indra's incarnate. His willpower is also much better, seeing as though he wielded the Rinnegan and Tailed beasts with ease while Obito struggled handidly with the Rinnegan and lost himself in the Juubi initially. Not only that, but even Hashirama had a hard time freeing it from Madara unless you're about to serious compare Obito/Itachi to Hashirama.

      You are very misinformed, if I've ever seen it to say the least.

        Loading editor
    • @XshayShadow
      Considering each Mangekyou gives unique ability I don't think Madara would be aware of it. the way you are stating that madara would know of this ability is as though he is all knowing.
      It's quite possible that someone(izuna) developed similar trait. which was why he countered the ability.
      Well ironically for you despite Orochimaru couldn't decipher the tablet he(rather kabuto based on his data) was able to figure out Tablet's actual info. That's a plus for oro not Madara. (And by the way that doesn't make madara smart since madara was practically able to see the ans whereas Oro found it)
      Before we go on with this discussion can you tell me exact requirement for Perfect Susanoo. Because I don't remember It correctly..
      And Just so you know madara never used PS even in VOTE he used majestic attire..

        Loading editor
    • @Namikazenaruto9 Tsukuyomi isn't a unique ability, what're you talking about? Lol, most people who have Susano'o or Amateratsu are assumed to wield Tsukuyomi because the three abilities typically fall inline with each other. Typically, not always. Hell, Madara is assumed to have Tsukuyomi himself. I'm not saying he's all knowing, I'm merely saying he knows A LOT more than Orochimaru, Itachi and Obito. He taught Obito, like c'mon.

      No, nothing is ironic because you just said Kabuto figured it out (In which he didn't, they were able to read certain parts up to where the Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan.) And Kabuto isn't Orochimaru, just like how you said Madara isn't Orochimaru, right?

      You need EMS and to constantly use and hone your Susano'o, you wouldn't be able to master it without EMS because you'd go blind. You can literally go and ask anyone on any forum or make a topic of your own, EMS Madara had PS. It's why it didn't matter if Madara was edo or not against the Five kage because he'd still win, they didn't have an answer to PS.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote: @Namikazenaruto9 Tsukuyomi isn't a unique ability, what're you talking about? Lol, most people who have Susano'o or Amateratsu are assumed to wield Tsukuyomi because the three abilities typically fall inline with each other. Typically, not always. Hell, Madara is assumed to have Tsukuyomi himself. I'm not saying he's all knowing, I'm merely saying he knows A LOT more than Orochimaru, Itachi and Obito. He taught Obito, like c'mon.

      Please keep head canon separate from canon.
      Just because Itachi and sasuke developed Amaterasu doesn't mean every uchiha gets Tsukuyomi or amaterasu. Remember Obito Got kamui, Shisui got kotoamatsukami, Shin got another teleportation jutsu. And no one other than Itachi had Tsukuyomi in canon. Madara's ability wasn't revealed but in VOTE fight he was able to redirect the Fuma shurikens thrown by Hashirama's wood jutsu with his mangeykyou ability. You can check that in the fight as well.

      XShadyShadow wrote: No, nothing is ironic because you just said Kabuto figured it out (In which he didn't, they were able to read certain parts up to where the Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan.) And Kabuto isn't Orochimaru, just like how you said Madara isn't Orochimaru, right?

      Regardless I just made the point so as to make you understand that the one who has seen the answer isn't smarter than person who actually worked It out.

      XShadyShadow wrote: You need EMS and to constantly use and hone your Susano'o, you wouldn't be able to master it without EMS because you'd go blind. You can literally go and ask anyone on any forum or make a topic of your own, EMS Madara had PS. It's why it didn't matter if Madara was edo or not against the Five kage because he'd still win, they didn't have an answer to PS.

      You don't need EMS for PS is the point I tried to make. Just MS and some way to stop the deterioration.
      And besides it was established in previous threads(the time you weren't present) that one needs chakra enhancement to actually manifest the PS.here is the thread:http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:230464

        Loading editor
    • Itachi is the only known user of Tsukuyomi, I'd say it's pretty unique.

      EDIT: @XShadyShadow Obito was noted to be Madara's mirror in abilities overall (while Madara was alive) in a databook

        Loading editor
    • Yes i agree Tsukuyomi is unique to itachi , just like PS used to be unique to Madara , how would he be a legendary shinobi who can match Hashirama without PS , dosent make sense in my opinion.

      Even tho episode in anime was filler , its still kinda Hashirama flash back which explains his story line while he was young right ?

      even Databook noted only Madara as PS user,however there are many flaws in book so ive gotta put that aside.

      When he did summoned PS vs 5 kage chapter 589 page 1 , take a look at Mei and Madaras answer , i mean it does look like he knew what he was doing right ? so theres no doubt he used it in the past , otherwise i dont think he would be able to match Hashirama in any battle , and being considering for some one who can only Hashirama stop , so ye.

      Another thing if he went on a dead match vs Hashirama that he fought many times , and every time Madara did lost right ? what would be the point for going again with same Methods he already tried and lost with (perfect susanoo).

      So you gotta come out with better proves that he dosent have PS.Just like i said That current Naruto dosent use SPSM , and then one guy showed me that am wrong with a good prove.So i expect same here.

        Loading editor
    • @killer723
      I do agree that Madara has PS. But he didn't have it while Hashirama was alive. It's kind of like a contradictory statement that madara made which got me thinking. Just hear me out:
      Let's say for argument sake that Madara used Perfect Susanoo like they showed in the filler. Their were several Uchiha, Senju who saw the jutsu and lived to procreate. Heck the one fighting the jutsu On the front line Hashirama and Tobirama clearly survived.
      But in 5 kages Vs Madara, Madara clearly states that "Everyone who sees it dies". Now if Hashirama survived the jutsu as shown in the filler and this would contradict the said statement of Madara. Also if you say that Hashirama and others "died" after seeing the jutsu than it clearly isn't special since every one eventually "dies". Also since many have clearly vouched for Madara's intelligence so adamantly clearly he wouldn't have forgotten the encounter which resulted in creation of their dreams.
      So the logical conclusion is that Madara developed PS after Hashirama's death. Also If I remember correctly JouXIII pointed out that Hashirama was quite surprised to see the PS so.....

        Loading editor
    • If madara said something like that it means that once he got EMS he was probably using PS,before battle with hashi(not talking about vote)

        Loading editor
    • so you mean the filler?

        Loading editor
    • @Namikazenaruto9 Itachi himself said that those are the three abilities you will typically get when you unlock the MS (Amateratsu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o.) when he was speaking with Sasuke. Madara's PS ability was shown at the VOTE, right when Hashirama re-directed the Kyuubi's TBB. What're you talking about? Please don't tell me you're referring to the video game.

      But that's the thing, you didn't make a point. The point I made was that Orochimaru didn't decipher it, Madara did and Orochimaru didn't. Kabuto further advancing in what it says doesn't mean Orochimaru did, Kabuto wasn't even able to decipher the whole thing if I'm not mistaken. Don't make it more complicated than it is. The overall point is that Madara is vastly superior in terms of knowledge in comparison to Orochimaru and Kabuto despite you saying that they made it their goal to learn everything.

      No, you don't need chakra enhancements in order to activate PS. Sure, chakra enhancements can give it to you in some cases (DMS Kakashi and Rinnegan Sasuke.) But in Madara's case (In which is what matters since he's in the debate.) he didn't get any chakra boost, he just recieved EMS and got PS, after he matured his regular Susano'o I assume. Yes, Madara had PS while he was alive. No offense but do you pay attention at all? Madara acquired the Kyuubi to fight Hashirama again alongside his PS and the intention wasn't to actually win (Although if he did I'm sure that'd be a gain.) But it was to attain Hashirama's DNA to attain the Rinnegan.

      I'm sorry but I really don't wanna see this "EMS Madara doesn't have PS." argument anymore. You're honestly just wasting everyone's time with that. It's set and stone that he had PS while being alive, Oonoki questioned why Madara didn't use it when they fought before and Madara explained that an adult wouldn't fight a child seriously. That's like arguing "Hashirama didn't have wood style." You're trying to argue something that's already been long established and something the series made very clear. Madara had Perfect Susano'o while Hashirama was alive, it was a fact. You can't debate facts. The statement could've just meant everyone died but Hashirama which I assume would hold merit.

      @AsianReaper The series started with their only being like 3 Uchiha we knew of, and we only learned of a handful overall. I highly doubt Itachi is the first and last Uchiha to ever have Tsukuyomi especially during the war era (Madara's time.) Point being is that I'm certain Madara has knowledge about it and Itachi isn't the only Uchiha to ever have it. That databook sounds faulty, is there any way you could show the link? But there's no way you could actually believe Obito and EMS Madara are on the same level, feats and scaling show otherwise entirely.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote: @Namikazenaruto9 Itachi himself said that those are the three abilities you will typically get when you unlock the MS (Amateratsu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o.) when he was speaking with Sasuke. Madara's PS ability was shown at the VOTE, right when Hashirama re-directed the Kyuubi's TBB. What're you talking about? Please don't tell me you're referring to the video game.

      Itachi said that only in reference to himself.That was armored Susanoo right?*the one madara used to block TBB) didn't seem like PS to me. And when did I refer to the game? Because if I was talking about the game than I would have said that itachi too has PS..

      XShadyShadow wrote: But that's the thing, you didn't make a point. The point I made was that Orochimaru didn't decipher it, Madara did and Orochimaru didn't. Kabuto further advancing in what it says doesn't mean Orochimaru did, Kabuto wasn't even able to decipher the whole thing if I'm not mistaken. Don't make it more complicated than it is. The overall point is that Madara is vastly superior in terms of knowledge in comparison to Orochimaru and Kabuto despite you saying that they made it their goal to learn everything.

      No he isn't. The only advantage Madara had over Oro was the tablet. Nothing else. And besides Kabuto did second guess the rinnegan creation..

      XShadyShadow wrote:

      No, you don't need chakra enhancements in order to activate PS. Sure, chakra enhancements can give it to you in some cases (DMS Kakashi and Rinnegan Sasuke.) But in Madara's case (In which is what matters since he's in the debate.) he didn't get any chakra boost, he just recieved EMS and got PS, after he matured his regular Susano'o I assume. Yes, Madara had PS while he was alive. No offense but do you pay attention at all? Madara acquired the Kyuubi to fight Hashirama again alongside his PS and the intention wasn't to actually win (Although if he did I'm sure that'd be a gain.) But it was to attain Hashirama's DNA to attain the Rinnegan. I'm sorry but I really don't wanna see this "EMS Madara doesn't have PS." argument anymore. You're honestly just wasting everyone's time with that. It's set and stone that he had PS while being alive, Oonoki questioned why Madara didn't use it when they fought before and Madara explained that an adult wouldn't fight a child seriously. The statement could've just meant everyone but Hashirama.
      Madara didn't use PS in the fight. Only majestic Susanoo.
      And going by the series You do need enhancement.

      XShadyShadow wrote: @AsianReaper The series started with their only being like 3 Uchiha we knew of, and we only learned of a handful overall. I highly doubt Itachi is the first and last Uchiha to ever have Tsukuyomi especially during the war era (Madara's time.) Point being is that I'm certain Madara has knowledge about it. That databook sounds faulty, is there any way you could show the link? But there's no way you could actually believe Obito and EMS Madara are on the same level, feats and scaling show otherwise entirely.

      you being certain doesn't change anything. Madara hasn't shown the knowledge in cannon so he doesn't possess it.
      Just Because Databook has errors doesn't means its completely unreliable , also if Obito had been weaker than Onoki would have realized.

        Loading editor
    • Chapter 641 page 6 you have hashi that says Madara dont get in my way , and Madara with theres no time i have something to do.

      take a look at next page does he looks like he is surprised? i mean there is a question mark that can explain why Madara trying to keep me away or why he wanna battle at this point , later on in chapter 643 , you can see that he begs Madara to stop with fight , so i cant really say he was surprised cuz of Susanoo (even anime dosent shows that he is a little of surprised seeing it)

      Another thing against 5 kage , the whole fight he is toying with them and trying to shove them that they are nothing compared to him

      so ye that sentence might be applied to break everyone's will , not just onokis , since onoki was the one who raised rest kages to keep on fighting.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: Chapter 641 page 6 you have hashi that says Madara dont get in my way , and Madara with theres no time i have something to do.

      take a look at next page does he looks like he is surprised? i mean there is a question mark that can explain why Madara trying to keep me away or why he wanna battle at this point , later on in chapter 643 , you can see that he begs Madara to stop with fight , so i cant really say he was surprised cuz of Susanoo (even anime dosent shows that he is a little of surprised seeing it)
      It could be too right? Especially since Madara activated PS at that very moment.

      Killer723 wrote: Another thing against 5 kage , the whole fight he is toying with them and trying to shove them that they are nothing compared to him so ye that sentence might be applied to break everyone's will , not just onokis , since onoki was the one who raised rest kages to keep on fighting.

      that could be true, But he already tried that and it didn't work and at the very next moment edo tensei broke. So?!!

        Loading editor
    • Hashiramas wasnt surprised but was angry for madara stopping him in his way.

        Loading editor
    • XShadyShadow wrote: @Namikazenaruto9 Itachi himself said that those are the three abilities you will typically get when you unlock the MS (Amateratsu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o.) when he was speaking with Sasuke. Madara's PS ability was shown at the VOTE, right when Hashirama re-directed the Kyuubi's TBB. What're you talking about? Please don't tell me you're referring to the video game.

      But that's the thing, you didn't make a point. The point I made was that Orochimaru didn't decipher it, Madara did and Orochimaru didn't. Kabuto further advancing in what it says doesn't mean Orochimaru did, Kabuto wasn't even able to decipher the whole thing if I'm not mistaken. Don't make it more complicated than it is. The overall point is that Madara is vastly superior in terms of knowledge in comparison to Orochimaru and Kabuto despite you saying that they made it their goal to learn everything.

      No, you don't need chakra enhancements in order to activate PS. Sure, chakra enhancements can give it to you in some cases (DMS Kakashi and Rinnegan Sasuke.) But in Madara's case (In which is what matters since he's in the debate.) he didn't get any chakra boost, he just recieved EMS and got PS, after he matured his regular Susano'o I assume. Yes, Madara had PS while he was alive. No offense but do you pay attention at all? Madara acquired the Kyuubi to fight Hashirama again alongside his PS and the intention wasn't to actually win (Although if he did I'm sure that'd be a gain.) But it was to attain Hashirama's DNA to attain the Rinnegan.

      I'm sorry but I really don't wanna see this "EMS Madara doesn't have PS." argument anymore. You're honestly just wasting everyone's time with that. It's set and stone that he had PS while being alive, Oonoki questioned why Madara didn't use it when they fought before and Madara explained that an adult wouldn't fight a child seriously. That's like arguing "Hashirama didn't have wood style." You're trying to argue something that's already been long established and something the series made very clear. Madara had Perfect Susano'o while Hashirama was alive, it was a fact. You can't debate facts. The statement could've just meant everyone died but Hashirama which I assume would hold merit.

      @AsianReaper The series started with their only being like 3 Uchiha we knew of, and we only learned of a handful overall. I highly doubt Itachi is the first and last Uchiha to ever have Tsukuyomi especially during the war era (Madara's time.) Point being is that I'm certain Madara has knowledge about it and Itachi isn't the only Uchiha to ever have it. That databook sounds faulty, is there any way you could show the link? But there's no way you could actually believe Obito and EMS Madara are on the same level, feats and scaling show otherwise entirely.

      That was retconned, and Itachi is still literally the only user ever in the series. What the actual information is is that you need the power of both Mangekyo eyes to possibly unlock Susanoo.

      This paragraph isn't responding to me so I won't respond to it.

      You need to stop spewing your opinions everywhere and expecting everyone tot ake it as fact. I even agree that it's probable Madara had PS with EMS. But you know what? He never once showed it while he was alive. So it still is actually arguable that Madara could only bring his Susanoo to that point with enhancements. Also, it's not at all like claiming Hashi didn't have Wood Release. You know why? Because he was shown using it while he was alive, lol.

      The fact that you "don't wanna see" this EMS Madara without PS argument anymore doesn't exactly matter. Other users can give their opinion all they want, so long as it's still being used for debate and not for saying "I'm definitely right and you're definitely wrong." There are some legit facts in this series, but Madara having PS during life is debatable since he never showed it.

      Yes, not many Uchiha were present at first. But if you remember, Madara and Izuna were the first in a very long time to unlock the Mangekyo. And it was considered extremely rare to unlock at all. And the databook I'm talking about sounds faulty? I'm sorry? I didn't write it lol. But I can't link it since any english scanlation is illegal and forum policy is you can't link that sort of thing. You can find translations all over the internet though

        Loading editor
    • The databook are very well known to have shitty information But I highly doubt that Obito being nearly equal to Madara in his lifetime is one of them,no many characters in the series could really beat him in a 1vs1 after all. And for the susanoo argument databook 4 still claim that only MS is necesarry to Perfect susanoo,it may be not true,but so far we know we don't have any conclusive evidence that says otherwise.(In fact Indra did indeed achieved as such with only MS).

        Loading editor
    • Idk why it's hard to believe Obito was a near mirror of Madara in life. Dude was a beast.

      He literally took on Naruto in NTCM (who's like 4th Raikage level), Bee the perfect Jinchuriki, Gai in all his Gated glory (well, he went up to his 6th gate in the fight I'm talking about), and Kakashi the Copy Ninja. All at once, by himself.

      And he did it while he was alive too, whereas Madara fought the 5 kage as an Edo Tensei. Madara was dealt some huge hits that would have probably been death if not for Edo Tensei/Hashi healing, whereas Obtio was staying alive against his enemies.

        Loading editor
    • AsianReaper wrote: Idk why it's hard to believe Obito was a near mirror of Madara in life. Dude was a beast.

      He literally took on Naruto in NTCM (who's like 4th Raikage level), Bee the perfect Jinchuriki, Gai in all his Gated glory (well, he went up to his 6th gate in the fight I'm talking about), and Kakashi the Copy Ninja. All at once, by himself.

      And he did it while he was alive too, whereas Madara fought the 5 kage as an Edo Tensei. Madara was dealt some huge hits that would have probably been death if not for Edo Tensei/Hashi healing, whereas Obtio was staying alive against his enemies.

      the difference was that Madara was actually toying with the kages.

        Loading editor
    • @XShadyShadow You underestimate Obito and Itachi. Itachi is only known user of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Sasuke get that after.

        Loading editor
    • Narutopwnu7 wrote: the difference was that Madara was actually toying with the kages.

      Madara had infinite chakra and regeneration, plus abilities he never had in his life (Rinnegan, infinite chakra)

        Loading editor
    • Infinite relifils not infinite chakra.

        Loading editor
    • And chakra

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote: And chakra

      No if edos did hiruzen wouldev had used more shadow shurkiken clones. and minato wouldev had been able to spam ftg much more

        Loading editor
    • Madara said that in anime, but that was probably after Itachi broke edo tensei.

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote: Madara said that in anime, but that was probably after Itachi broke edo tensei.

      And we are taking anime as 100% cannon....

        Loading editor
    • Kakashisologod1 wrote: Infinite relifils not infinite chakra.

      You know what I meant. For all intents and purposes he had infinite chakra. Basically he would never be tired out. Whereas Obito was running under his own steam

        Loading editor
    • AsianReaper wrote: Idk why it's hard to believe Obito was a near mirror of Madara in life. Dude was a beast.

      He literally took on Naruto in NTCM (who's like 4th Raikage level), Bee the perfect Jinchuriki, Gai in all his Gated glory (well, he went up to his 6th gate in the fight I'm talking about), and Kakashi the Copy Ninja. All at once, by himself.

      And he did it while he was alive too, whereas Madara fought the 5 kage as an Edo Tensei. Madara was dealt some huge hits that would have probably been death if not for Edo Tensei/Hashi healing, whereas Obtio was staying alive against his enemies.

      Thats because Obito had the most convenient jutsu that allowed him to do those things. Its not very impressive when you realize he was just phasing through all their attacks the entire fight, kamui would even allow him to fight with kaguya even though he won't win. Not to mention he had the bijuu and the gedo on his side.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Thats because Obito had the most convenient jutsu that allowed him to do those things. Its not very impressive when you realize he was just phasing through all their attacks the entire fight, kamui would even allow him to fight with kaguya even though he won't win. Not to mention he had the bijuu and the gedo on his side.

      Duh. Come on he did take several blows from all of them. Especially he kept up with naruto in taijutsu dept. And Besides he also tanked rasengan(could be BBR,). Even If we all take the fact that he used it throughout the fight; Even that takes lot of chakra and planning so that he doesn't get ambushed.
      Bijus too were giving him tough time considering they were attacking him back. And Gedo is Gedo; It's mindless even though it has quite vast power.

      Coming to the fight in hand...
      Obito could pretty much immobilize madara's Susanoo with Uchiha Flame formation. And than Itachi can easily run him with totsuka blade...

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Thats because Obito had the most convenient jutsu that allowed him to do those things. Its not very impressive when you realize he was just phasing through all their attacks the entire fight, kamui would even allow him to fight with kaguya even though he won't win. Not to mention he had the bijuu and the gedo on his side.

      Duh. Come on he did take several blows from all of them. Especially he kept up with naruto in taijutsu dept. And Besides he also tanked rasengan(could be BBR,). Even If we all take the fact that he used it throughout the fight; Even that takes lot of chakra and planning so that he doesn't get ambushed.
      Bijus too were giving him tough time considering they were attacking him back. And Gedo is Gedo; It's mindless even though it has quite vast power.

      Coming to the fight in hand...
      Obito could pretty much immobilize madara's Susanoo with Uchiha Flame formation. And than Itachi can easily run him with totsuka blade...

      There was no taijutsu between him and naruto, he was just evading naruto with kamui. I don't recall kamui ever taking any significant amount of chakra from obito. The help he got from the bijuu far outweigh the struggles he they gave him and it doesn't matter if the gedo is mindless, it still helped him in the fight.

      As for the battle, uchiha flame formation protects whats inside the barrier, while the exterior burns whatever comes in contact with it. So how do you expect the totsuka to not only pierce the barrier but pierce madara's perfect susanoo as well?

        Loading editor
    • Itachi fight with naruto in taijutsu and he was pretty well

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote: Itachi fight with naruto in taijutsu and he was pretty well

      And dodged B and narutos attack at the same time.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote:

      There was no taijutsu between him and naruto, he was just evading naruto with kamui. I don't recall kamui ever taking any significant amount of chakra from obito. The help he got from the bijuu far outweigh the struggles he they gave him and it doesn't matter if the gedo is mindless, it still helped him in the fight.
      So who head butted naruto in kcm? and matched the punches?
      The way he was spamming would have costed him considerable chakra.
      Gedo was a liability. He was forced to protect it as long as it was the statue.(ex kakashi using Kamui on it's head)

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: As for the battle, uchiha flame formation protects whats inside the barrier, while the exterior burns whatever comes in contact with it. So how do you expect the totsuka to not only pierce the barrier but pierce madara's perfect susanoo as well?

      you are forgetting that madara will have to break the barrier. And in doing so he is bound to lose considerable chakra.
      Itachi would use sneak attack on him once the barrier gets broken. Madara would have no chance of defending from the strike in this scenario and would be sealed.

        Loading editor
    • Cant madara just stay in it?Lol

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote: Itachi fight with naruto in taijutsu and he was pretty well

      Naruto was not really trying to beat Itachi though.

        Loading editor
    • Once Madara breaks barrier its gonna cause shock waves around the field , so i really dont see a good opening for itachi in susano that has no speed feat to come fast and strike Madara inside PS.

      it will only cause a problem for itachi to stay in play.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: Once Madara breaks barrier its gonna cause shock waves around the field , so i really dont see a good opening for itachi in susano that has no speed feat to come fast and strike Madara inside PS.

      it will only cause a problem for itachi to stay in play.

      Dont forget madara will also feel that shock wave.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: So who head butted naruto in kcm? and matched the punches?
      The way he was spamming would have costed him considerable chakra.
      Gedo was a liability. He was forced to protect it as long as it was the statue.(ex kakashi using Kamui on it's head)

      Gedo was not a liability because it actually contributed to the fight. And are you serious?? What evidence do you have that totsuka can pierce a prefect susanoo? And what evidence do you have that it will cost madara a lot of chakra to break out of the barrier?
        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT, please do not pyramid quote. To prevent doing so, edit the quotes/comments in between the user's comment you are quoting, like this.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: you forgot to say lost to kakashi in hand to hand combat,even obito himself admited he lost.

      making constant pressure for 5 minute , he is only limited to be 5 minute inside kamui and Madara with his susano is more then enough to keep constant 5 minute pressure on him.

      Once kamui runs out tobi is dead.

      Emm,no.As much as i love kakashi,he was getting his a$$ handed by obito and after that obito let himself get stabbed by raikiri.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: Once Madara breaks barrier its gonna cause shock waves around the field , so i really dont see a good opening for itachi in susano that has no speed feat to come fast and strike Madara inside PS.

      it will only cause a problem for itachi to stay in play.

      Ten-tails couldn't create shockwaves. What makes you think madara would?

        Loading editor
    • Itachi can also hide in the ground while madara destroys the barrier and TB him.

        Loading editor
    • You guys literally have no evidence that supports the totsuka's blade capability to pierce susanoo.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote: You guys literally have no evidence that supports the totsuka's blade capability to pierce susanoo.

      well totsuka blade is said to be capable of piercing any thing...(DB entry)

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: You guys literally have no evidence that supports the totsuka's blade capability to pierce susanoo.

      well totsuka blade is said to be capable of piercing any thing...(DB entry)

      It says no such thing. This is the totsuka blade entry from the databook: "A variant of the kusanagi blade thats endowed with the power to plunge those it pierces into a genjutsu world of drunken dreams and seal them away for all time. The blade itself is imbued with a sealing jutsu"

        Loading editor
    • @namikaze eh :D the barrier crated by hokages and barrier obito created , are not on same level. Maybe same type , but level not for sure.

      The fact that hokages have to stay near barrier to keep it , while obito could move freely.

      @kakashi obito was pretty serious whole fight , until it came to last scene where he allows kakashi to stab him.

        Loading editor
    • "Susanoo boasts of an absolutely perfect attack and defense because of Spiritual weapons it wields in both hands: The Ten-Handed Sword that can cut down any enemy in its right and the yata mirror, a shield that can repel any attack. In face of god's power all attacks whether form a material or astral body, ninjutsu or physical lose their meaning."
      Now are you happy?

      Killer723 wrote: @namikaze eh :D the barrier crated by hokages and barrier obito created , are not on same level. Maybe same type , but level not for sure.

      The fact that hokages have to stay near barrier to keep it , while obito could move freely.

      well that barrier kept TT. Madara's Susanoo doesn't even comes close. Besides the barrier is supposed to immobilize the Susanoo, allowing itachi to have close combat fight with madara. And in close combat fight of Susanoo madara won't win.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah and when he was serious he was stomping him.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: "Susanoo boasts of an absolutely perfect attack and defense because of Spiritual weapons it wields in both hands: The Ten-Handed Sword that can cut down any enemy in its right and the yata mirror, a shield that can repel any attack. In face of god's power all attacks whether form a material or astral body, ninjutsu or physical lose their meaning."


      Now are you happy?

      Cut down any enemy is not the same as piercing anything, not even close.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Cut down any enemy is not the same as piercing anything, not even close.

      Why is that?
        Loading editor
    • If i cut half of the moon i already pierced it.

        Loading editor
    • Ok first thing that barrier wont be able to hold Madara , as i told you barrier that kages created and Obito are not same strength , you can even check i think guy said that requiers 4 people kage lvl to be created so Obitos barrier cant be power full as one we seen.

      Another thing do you really believe that itachi can take with his armored susano on PS and hope to win ? i mean Madaras susano with 4 arms are still stronger then the one itachi holds , in terms of how Madara uses it , he can shape susanoo easily and even when Itachi reaches his maxed state Madara can go more, so theres no way he can win susano fight , not to mention he can simply block TB with one arm and use rest arms to create shock waves (Yata dosent protect his whole susano , so shock waves can simply break some parts of his susano) which gonna cause problems for itachi to maintain susano. And unlike Madara who can go for PS and crush itachi at this point, itachi will have to sacrifice more then 30% of his chakra to form new one or so.

        Loading editor
    • No not really,Madara will need to get behind itachis susano to actually hurt him,since (as we seen) YM protects upfront of the susano and madaras PS did not show a speed feat to dodge TB AND get behind itachi.Madara isnt catching it as he can also pierce his susano hand with TB.Obito is not hittable and it will be a waste of time trying to.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Cut down any enemy is not the same as piercing anything, not even close.

      Why is that?

      Because when the databook says "enemy" its obviously referring to a person not every object in the world. Susanoo is not an enemy, its chakra. Not to mention I have no reason to believe statements like that from the databook that have no backing from the source material whatsoever since kishi didn't write them.

      Kakashisologod1 wrote: No not really,Madara will need to get behind itachis susano to actually hurt him,since (as we seen) YM protects upfront of the susano and madaras PS did not show a speed feat to dodge TB AND get behind itachi.Madara isnt catching it as he can also pierce his susano hand with TB.Obito is not hittable and it will be a waste of time trying to.

      Madara doesn't need to get behind itachi's susanoo, he can't simply pick it up with one hand and smash it from behind with the other hand.

        Loading editor
    • @killer 723
      You are still saying that even though Obito stopped TT with the very same barrier? And As far as I know Madara isn't stronger than TT so the point still holds.
      @Lorenzo VonMT
      which part of "any enemy" You didn't get. And Besides Itachi Has already sealed whole human who contain huge amt of chakra. When they got sealed their chakra didn't do anything, so how is suddenly Susanoo gonna give the required protection.

        Loading editor
    • Well you see , there is a difference between Jubito and Obito with only one sharingan. So theres simply no way he can create such a strong barrier , he even used black rods to create it as i remember.

      So explain me this , all kages had to stay near barrier to maintain it, while Obito use to move freely. And even they had problems in making shadow clones/wood clones, Obito didnt shown any drawback, and is he on level of 4 kages ? i dont think so.

      So how the heck is that the same level barrier that he used to protect statue and the one that kages created or jubito (who is even stronger).

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: Well you see , there is a difference between Jubito and Obito with only one sharingan. So theres simply no way he can create such a strong barrier , he even used black rods to create it as i remember.

      So explain me this , all kages had to stay near barrier to maintain it, while Obito use to move freely. And even they had problems in making shadow clones/wood clones, Obito didnt shown any drawback, and is he on level of 4 kages ? i dont think so.

      So how the heck is that the same level barrier that he used to protect statue and the one that kages created or jubito (who is even stronger).

      Come on man...
      It happened. Here is the episode The Secret of the Space–Time Ninjutsu
        Loading editor
    • I know where did happen. But thats the thing , that barrier is not same strength as the one Hokaes created or Jubito even the size is not close to same thus that barrier that Obito created didnt use to hold TT , all we seen it was able to tank one fist attack from 8 tail , so i cant even say how durable it is.

        Loading editor
    • okay than why are you comparing it to hokage barrier?
      It held TT for couple of min.

        Loading editor
    • Hmm...a few things I'd like to comment on. Perhaps it has been said before, and I'm only repeating myself. If so, I'm sorry. Anyway, here it goes:

      1) Pre-TTJ Obito being equal to EMS Madara is indeed mentioned in a Wiki page here. And apparently, the source is one of the databooks. But either this refers to Single-Rinnegan Obito, or it is a flat-out contradiction. Pre-War Obito had no Rinnegan. And during the Five Kage Summit, Obito (disguised as Madara) himself admitted that he was nothing but a shell of his (EMS Madara's) former self. Ohnoki fought EMS Madara and knew his power. He sure as hell found it hard to believe that EMS Madara would take more than a decade to capture the jinchuriki. "Madara" responds by saying that the injuries he sustained at VotE was so great that he ended up becoming far weaker than what he was at his prime.

      So Pre-War Obito being EMS Madara's equal sounds far-fetched and directly contradicts the manga. EMS Madara's "equal" in strength and abilities wouldn't be fighting Fu and Torune like the way Obito did. So the "equal" to EMS Madara is probably Single-Rinne Obito.

      2) EMS Madara most probably had the PS. Edo Madara taunted the Five Kage by saying something along the lines of, "It is said that someone who has witnessed the Perfect Susanoo won't be alive to see it again.", implying that he used the PS on other shinobi before his faked "death" at VotE.

      3) EMS Madara takes it imo.

        Loading editor
    • @namikaze well you are the one who said that Obito stopped TT with that barrier however,he was jubito when he stopped TT. Rinne obito barrier only use to tank one attack from 8 tail as i said.

      So Am comparing it to Hokages barrier cuz its same in terms of jutsu type , but level of the barrier that kages preformed is A rank jutsu while obitos one Is B. So that should prove you, such a small barrier wont be able to hold gigantic PS.

      I really cant imagine Madara being stopped by some B rank barrier.

        Loading editor
    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: Hmm...a few things I'd like to comment on. Perhaps it has been said before, and I'm only repeating myself. If so, I'm sorry. Anyway, here it goes:

      1) Pre-TTJ Obito being equal to EMS Madara is indeed mentioned in a Wiki page here. And apparently, the source is one of the databooks. But either this refers to Single-Rinnegan Obito, or it is a flat-out contradiction. Pre-War Obito had no Rinnegan. And during the Five Kage Summit, Obito (disguised as Madara) himself admitted that he was nothing but a shell of his (EMS Madara's) former self. Ohnoki fought EMS Madara and knew his power. He sure as hell found it hard to believe that EMS Madara would take more than a decade to capture the jinchuriki. "Madara" responds by saying that the injuries he sustained at VotE was so great that he ended up becoming far weaker than what he was at his prime.

      So Pre-War Obito being EMS Madara's equal sounds far-fetched and directly contradicts the manga. EMS Madara's "equal" in strength and abilities wouldn't be fighting Fu and Torune like the way Obito did. So the "equal" to EMS Madara is probably Single-Rinne Obito.

      You cant look on that in that way. Obito planed to fight against Danzo, so he didnt want to lost a lot of chakra on Fu and Torune.

        Loading editor
    • Killer723 wrote: @namikaze well you are the one who said that Obito stopped TT with that barrier however,he was jubito when he stopped TT. Rinne obito barrier only use to tank one attack from 8 tail as i said.

      So Am comparing it to Hokages barrier cuz its same in terms of jutsu type , but level of the barrier that kages preformed is A rank jutsu while obitos one Is B. So that should prove you, such a small barrier wont be able to hold gigantic PS.

      I really cant imagine Madara being stopped by some B rank barrier.

      come on man are you underestimating the jutsu because it's B rank now? rank only indicates difficulty not power.
      I do agree that barrier stopped 8 tails attack. But you should also remember TT was rampaging from inside for couple of min before actually breaking the barrier. And Besides I am not claiming that Madara won't break it, I am just saying that it will take him considerable chakra and time(more than TT).And it's perfect for Itachi to get near him and stab him(TB) the moment he breaks the barrier.

        Loading editor
    • Rampaging , well its true barrier cracked but my guess is , statue started to shape ten tail form and once it was completed it broke free instantly.

      Take a look at barrier size and Ten Tail theres just no way that whole Ten tail was inside that barrier having problems to break free.

        Loading editor
    • Two things.B rank does not mean anything.It determines difficulty not power.Second,size does not mean anything either.Itachis armored susano is still far more dangerous than sasukes even though they are the same size.@Lorenzo and if he comes close to itachi he is giving him bigger chances to snipe him with TB.

        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: @Lorenzo VonMT
      which part of "any enemy" You didn't get. And Besides Itachi Has already sealed whole human who contain huge amt of chakra. When they got sealed their chakra didn't do anything, so how is suddenly Susanoo gonna give the required protection.

      Like I said before, the databook was referring to people when it said enemy. If you're going to use a very vague statement to justify your claim, I'm not going to argue with you any further. As far as the manga is concerned, nothing in it shows that the totsuka blade can pierce a defense like susanoo.

        Loading editor
    • Kjubi wrote:

      BakumatsuWarrior wrote: Hmm...a few things I'd like to comment on. Perhaps it has been said before, and I'm only repeating myself. If so, I'm sorry. Anyway, here it goes:

      1) Pre-TTJ Obito being equal to EMS Madara is indeed mentioned in a Wiki page here. And apparently, the source is one of the databooks. But either this refers to Single-Rinnegan Obito, or it is a flat-out contradiction. Pre-War Obito had no Rinnegan. And during the Five Kage Summit, Obito (disguised as Madara) himself admitted that he was nothing but a shell of his (EMS Madara's) former self. Ohnoki fought EMS Madara and knew his power. He sure as hell found it hard to believe that EMS Madara would take more than a decade to capture the jinchuriki. "Madara" responds by saying that the injuries he sustained at VotE was so great that he ended up becoming far weaker than what he was at his prime.

      So Pre-War Obito being EMS Madara's equal sounds far-fetched and directly contradicts the manga. EMS Madara's "equal" in strength and abilities wouldn't be fighting Fu and Torune like the way Obito did. So the "equal" to EMS Madara is probably Single-Rinne Obito.

      You cant look on that in that way. Obito planed to fight against Danzo, so he didnt want to lost a lot of chakra on Fu and Torune.

      I'm pretty sure a 78 year old man would not be a problem to someone that was called mirror image of Madara in his prime,I mean I'm pretty sure Madara would be able to take the 3 of them with easy.

        Loading editor
    • @kakashi Well thats right , its easy to preform , its nothing special just like every other barrier imbued with flames , If hashi used to preform barrier to , i dont see a reason why that jutsu type would be unfamiliar to Madara so using to claim that he gonna damage his own susano trying to break it well i cant agree on that.

      However we dont have much information about flame formation the one that obito used. We dont even know whats that barrier capable of, but using to claim that its gonna cost allot of chakra for Madara in PS to break it , well its kinda empty prove.

      And on top of that i really dont know how itachi gonna reach Madara in PS , we dont even know if he can pierce susano.

        Loading editor
    • A Fandom user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message

Ad blocker interference detected!


Wikia is a free-to-use site that makes money from advertising. We have a modified experience for viewers using ad blockers

Wikia is not accessible if you’ve made further modifications. Remove the custom ad blocker rule(s) and the page will load as expected.