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  • Edo-Madara Uchiha did it. In a hypothetical deathmatch, could a shinobi the Uchiha admitted was his superior do the same?

    Prime Hashirama Senju (non-Edo Tensei) Vs. Onoki - Mei - Gaara - A- Tsunade.

    Who wins?

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    • Hard to say for sure. I think a lot of people will say that Madara won simply because he could regenerate as edo tensei, but really, I think he likely would have won regardless. He'd have left the battle wounded, I think, and surely tired AF from juggling five Kage, but I think he'd have won still.

      Therefore -- imagining Bringer-of-Darkness, and Wood Dragons, and Advent of World of Flowering Trees, and personal regeneration jutsus, and Top Transformed Buddha, and Sage Mode, and overall virtuoso skill -- I give this battle to Hashirama. Again, it wouldn't be super simple for him, as with Madara. But I think he'd win, and I think he'd do it better than Madara did, edo tensei or not.

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    • I don't see them getting around the wood dragon if it could hold down kyuubi itself.

      He wins low mid diff at most

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    • 9 Arts dragon wrote: I don't see them getting around the wood dragon if it could hold down kyuubi itself.

      Onoki blasts through all of Hashirama's defences, and hashirama himself, with a simple Dust Release technique.

      Also, seriously? Onoki and Gaara stopped a meteor. They can stop a wood Dragon

      Five Kage win. Just as they'd have won against Madara if they could actually hurt him (in stead of Edo Tensei making sealing him nigh-impossible)

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    • i agree with killman, hashi loses to onokis dust :)

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      9 Arts dragon wrote: I don't see them getting around the wood dragon if it could hold down kyuubi itself.

      Onoki blasts through all of Hashirama's defences, and hashirama himself, with a simple Dust Release technique.

      Also, seriously? Onoki and Gaara stopped a meteor. They can stop a wood Dragon

      Five Kage win. Just as they'd have won against Madara if they could actually hurt him (in stead of Edo Tensei making sealing him nigh-impossible)

      just one problem they cannot bypass harbinger of darkness!

      GreatestSin wrote: i agree with killman, hashi loses to onokis dust :)

      Only if Onoki scores a hit against hashi.

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    • Hashirama's Wood God (or is it called Wood Human? I don't recall) was capable of literally catching a Tailed Beast Ball... remember, that extraordinarily dense ball of chakra so heavy that Naruto (prior to his friendship with the Kyuubi) couldn't lift it? I have a suspicion that a senjutsu enhanced Wood God/Human could sustain a Dust Release.

      Also, Hashirama went toe-to-toe with Madara and the Kyuubi for an entire day and still had the energy to stand... hell, more than just stand; he defeated them. His life force and might are immense.

      Put Sage Hashirama, flanked by his Wood creations, aided by his years in war, versus the five kage, battling in a forest he summoned himself... I don't believe Onoki would be able to hit him. I think Hashirama would have a certain level of control over the battle; his experience and skill are too high to sit around and allow himself to be hit by Dust Release (a jutsu, in Hashirama's favor, that is rather taxing to use anyway). Use Sage Mode; create a forest labyrinth; cast Bringer-of-Darkness; hunt the kage in turn, sensing them out, utilizing the trees and roots to impale and decapitate. Endgame Hashirama.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: just one problem they cannot bypass harbinger of darkness!

      Not this discussion again.

      UnstoppableUchiha wrote: I have a suspicion that a senjutsu enhanced Wood God/Human could sustain a Dust Release.

      Dust Release destroys whatever it touches. It can't be caught. the only known counter is Preta Path.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: just one problem they cannot bypass harbinger of darkness!

      Not this discussion again.

      @killman well I won't trouble you for more just can you direct me towards where it already happened?

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    • @Namikazenaruto9, I can explain. In the threat about Rinnegan Sasuke vs Prime Hashi, there was a serious argument if BoD is really that an unstoppable technique and if it can be countered by doujutsu users via their eyes.

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    • @Rave It shouldn't really matter since none of the 5 Kages have dojutsu and are exceptional in genjutsu

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    • @UltimaDude, I've just tried to explain what Thekillman meant by writing "not this topic again".

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    • but hashirama can counter dust release by using good number of wood clones!

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    • Dust release still does nothing to a perfect Susano it would just reassemble after taking the damage because the technique lacks the range for a PS

      Madara easily countered and can keep up with bijuu mode Naruto who is easily above all kages even together in a weaker form than his prime I don't see them winning

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: @UltimaDude, I've just tried to explain what Thekillman meant by writing "not this topic again".

      I know, just wanted to point out that it wouldn't cause a big argument this time

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      9 Arts dragon wrote: I don't see them getting around the wood dragon if it could hold down kyuubi itself.

      Onoki blasts through all of Hashirama's defences, and hashirama himself, with a simple Dust Release technique.

      Also, seriously? Onoki and Gaara stopped a meteor. They can stop a wood Dragon

      Five Kage win. Just as they'd have won against Madara if they could actually hurt him (in stead of Edo Tensei making sealing him nigh-impossible)

      Yeah,because Hashirama would just sit there and let onoki dust release hit him like he was a mental retard,a young onoki+muu couldn't even beat Ems Madara.And for madara statement in the 4th war,he raped Muu and onoki really hard...

      Not forget that the pollen no jutsus Knocked out all the kages but Onoki,if hashirama somehow get rid of onoki first,he can deal against the other kages.

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    • Narutopwnu7 wrote: Not forget that the pollen no jutsus Knocked out all the kages but Onoki,if hashirama somehow get rid of onoki first,he can deal against the other kages.

      he would first ned to kill tsunde than onoki or he needs to directly kill him without giving tsunade a chance to heal onoki :)

      and for dust: even if hashi isnt sitting around it would still make all his attacks useless :) there are still muu acid/lava (which are both really good counters against wood), than there is gaara for stopping hashis movements and A for close combat,

      madara was simply OP, the reason why edo-madara didnt OHK hashi is because he never used rinnegan paths, he used susanoo like he did in the past, and the rinnegan paths are also the reason (and his immortal body) why he survived the 5 kage and defeated them easily ^_^

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    • @GreatestSin Madara was barely injured and barely used any Rinnegan jutsus, only Preta Path. One PS swing was enough to demoralize the 5 Kage. Hashirama curbstomps the 5 kage

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    • Okay time for me to step in and say my piece.

      I would like to point out that the only reason Madara defeated the five kage was because he was an edo and came back in his prime with Wood Release and the Rinnegan. Something he didn't achieve until his dying age. That was not the Madara that Hashirama faced at the Valley of the End.

      Now onto to the battle at hand. The fact that it took Madara to use PS to defeat the five kage, proves that this won't be an easy battle for even Hashirama. The fact that Mei, Onoki and Gaara has the perfect counter to Hashirama's wood release and doesn't have the abilitu to absorb ninjutsu like Madara did which also gave him an upperhand, makes this difficult for Hashirama. Hashirama has not proved much in the taijutsu department or speed. Dealing with Tsunade in taijutsu for him and destructive capabilities won't be easy, and then there is A who has Hashirama beat in speed obviously and strength. Hashirama would need Sage Mode most definitely. When it comes to Dust Release, it has been proven durability doesn't mean squat. Hashirama has the Bringer of Darkness but with Tsunade's 5 in genjutsu, it is possible she would be able to break it. Tsunade has her superb regeneration ability although not on the scale of Hashirama but still very good. However, he will not recover if his arm is torned off. Hashirama has them beat in chakra but I feel if he could beat them, the 1000 arms technique but that's if gets to use it. I think in my opinion the five kage wins in the end with most likely Mei and Onoki dying and with the other kage severely weakened and hurt.

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    • Technically, if Edo Madara was serious from the beginning he could have killed them all before they even got a chance to hurt him. The only reason they lasted as long as they did is because Madara let them, and because of that he was taken by surprise and suffered a critical blow that would have killed him if he was alive.

      I mean, what would've happened if Madara used PS while they were down by the pollen. Or while they were dealing with all of his Susanoo clones? He could've killed them twice pretty easily. Besides, Madara's PS is even weaker than Hashirama's Wood Human that was stated to be as powerful as Kurama in Jin no Sho.

      What could they do if Hashirama used Advent of a World of Flowering Trees and then followed up with a Wood Dragon or Wood Human attack while they're all down? Also, Hashirama has been shown to be equal to Madara in the physical prowess department. He and EMS Madara fought evenly with taijutsu and bukijutsu all throughout their lives and unlives without Hashirama losing any ground. So he is fast enough to keep up with them all, especially Tsuande who is pretty slow and he'd be able to erect a defense in time before being hit by A. Hashirama's Wood Dragons can also absorb the chakra of those that they restrain too and render them unable to do anything. Hashirama could also use the Wood Clone Jutsu and he can communicate and switch places with his clones by using Substitution to further avoid close-calls. His Wood Clones can also use Jutsu too on their own and they're more durable than Shadow Clones. Imo, I really don't see how they can all beat him even together if Hashirama has killing intent.

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    • Onoki is by the far the most dangerous one,it was already more than proved When edo madara fought against the kages that the pollen no jutsu can K.O all of them.If Hashirama pulls out something OP like 1000 thousand hands none of the kages will have a counter to it,except Onoki.

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    • @Legendary

      Hashirama would need to be out of range from the pollen. The only reason the five kage fell victim to it was because Madara erected his Susanoo to block them onto the floor. The fact that you believe Hashirama will be able to erect a barrier to react against A who is one of the fastest shinobi in history than well you are on your own, unless he has Sage Mode activated than I doubt it. How is PS weaker than Wood Human? I've never seen Hashirama in a prolong taijutsu battle with Madara. It was always distance and ninjutsu with Hashirama. Wood Dragon can absorb chakra with things it restrains but getting hit with lava that crap is melting.

      @Naruto

      The 1000 Wood Hands will be the five kage's ultimate problem, however, this will not be the end of them. Gaara amd Onoki managed to stop a meteor. If enough chakra is given to them by Tsunade, they wipe it out or destroy most of it.

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    • Narutopwnu7
      Narutopwnu7 removed this reply because:
      sdddddddddddddd
      03:53, April 7, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Narutopwnu7 wrote: pollen no jutsu can K.O all of them.

      And then Hashi can finish them with Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands.

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    • Minato 87 wrote:

      Narutopwnu7 wrote: pollen no jutsu can K.O all of them.

      And then Hashi can finish them with Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands.

      oe onoki awakes, attacks with dust release and one shots him ^_^

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    • When the five Kage fought Madara, Gaara and Onoki had already been in battle for a while. It wasn't a fair fight to begin with.

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    • ^^^ They were brought back to full strength by Tsunade's healing, so I don't see your point, but you're right even with all five kage at full strength it wasn't a fair fight, why because Madara was just too strong and was holding back throughout the entire fight and when he decided to finally go all out there was nothing they could do to stop the all powerful Madara.

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: ^^^ They were brought back to full strength by Tsunade's healing

      Which cost Tsunade chakra.

      Madara was Edo Tensei. It's just too strong a jutsu to make any kind of fight fair. He's difficult enough to murder, it's even more difficult to seal him, being unable to destroy his body entirely (or he just regenerates and you can't really seal him during that period), but also unable to go easy on him (because you still need to break through stuff like Susanoo).

      If Madara weren't Edo Tensei (all other things equal) they'd have a shot at winning by murdering him with Dust Release. It would require a bit of clever maneuvering to create an opening against Preta, but it's not impossible. The same tactic works even better on Hashirama. He can't defend against Dust Release other than trying to move, and there are 4 kage who can dedicate themselves to preventing exactly that

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    • ^^^ Yes it cost Tsunade chakra but the amount of chakra wasn't enough to make a substantial difference.

      Besides Madara would have won the fight regardless of whether or not he was an edotensei.

      living Madara>>>edotensei Madara. the five kage can't do anything against perfect susanoo and living Madara wouldn't fight as recklessly as he did as an edotensei, meaning it would've made absolutely no difference whether or not he was an edotensei zombie or a living person the fight would've ended the same way, the only difference would be that living Madara would've killed them faster and easier.

      although I can see Hashirama having a harder time winning when compared to Madara, although Hashirama will still win because the five kage can't and won't be able to get past ten thousand hand Buddha.

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: living Madara>>>edotensei Madara.

      Like i said, all other things equal, if he was alive he would've had a MUCH harder time, and the kage would've had a chance of winning.

      Uchiahmasters wrote:

      although I can see Hashirama having a harder time winning when compared to Madara, although Hashirama will still win because the five kage can't and won't be able to get past ten thousand hand Buddha.

      Pick a dust release technique and it's gone. Gaara and Onoki stopped a meteor, which is about the size of True Several Thousand hands. They'll manage

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    • also in this case they can escape/run from the technique, last time madara forced them to tank the hit since they had to protect fellow shinobis (madara used morality agaist them)however in this case they don't even need to tank 1000 arms technique..

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    • Madara was too arrogant and trolling them by having them fight his clones he knew he had an Immortal body and ever replenishing chakra in the first place when he used the edo seals to stay in the game

      But if he actually wanted to finish them he could've fairly easily at that.That being said Hashirama isn't arrogant as opposed to him he has multiple ways of putting them down in this fight they're not winning and onokis dust release doesn't have much range it won't be a problem if he can dodge kyuubi bijuudamas in base form he's not getting blitzed by them

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    • GreatestSin wrote: oe onoki awakes, attacks with dust release and one shots him ^_^

      How, when he is in knockdown?

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    • Hashirama wins

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Uchiahmasters wrote: living Madara>>>edotensei Madara.

      Like i said, all other things equal, if he was alive he would've had a MUCH harder time, and the kage would've had a chance of winning.

      Uchiahmasters wrote:

      although I can see Hashirama having a harder time winning when compared to Madara, although Hashirama will still win because the five kage can't and won't be able to get past ten thousand hand Buddha.

      Pick a dust release technique and it's gone. Gaara and Onoki stopped a meteor, which is about the size of True Several Thousand hands. They'll manage

      neither Ohnoki or Muu have enough power to take out thousand hand Buddha in one blow, their particle style is nowhere near big enough to pull that off, the most it could do is make a small dent and even that is unlikely.

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    • They don't need to take all of it down, all they need is a straight beam to Hashirama. And really, nothing defends against Dust Release.

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    • Minato 87 wrote:

      GreatestSin wrote: oe onoki awakes, attacks with dust release and one shots him ^_^

      How, when he is in knockdown?

      it didnt work with madara, why should it go by hashi? as far as we know both times willbe the same, therefore onoki can resist it...

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    • @GreatestSin, the only reason Dust Release didn't work on Madara is because Madara had the Preta Path. Otherwise, Onoki would have dusted Madara in the Five Kage Fight

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    • 1) Edo Madara was holding back and fighting the 5 Kages with his pinky the whole time. So using that one time Onoki vaporised Edo Madara with Dust Release doesn't count. Besides, Madara let Onoki vapourise him so that Tsunade could see his Hashi boobs in order to demoralize her.

      2) Like others have stated, Hashi isn't just going to sit around waiting for Onoki to vapourize him. Hashi most likely knows about Dust Release, since Muu and Onoki were alive for decades before Hashi ultimately died in the first war.

      3) Even if Hashi doesn't know about Dust Release, he will soon find it out when Onoki vapourizes some of his wood constructs. Hashi usually makes enormous wood constructs around him to overwhelm his opponents. There is no way Onoki can take Hashi by surprise and use his very first Dust Release in the battle to vaporise Hashi. Onoki will be forced to use his Dust Release for the very first time on Hashi's Wood constructs rather than on Hashi himself. Hashi will have analysed the basics of the jutsu after observing Onoki performing it.

      4) Hashi often uses Wood Clones to catch his opponents by surprise. It has been said that only EMS Madara was capable to see through Hashi's wood clones. So it is highly unlikely that Hashi will be killed by Onoki's Dust Release, should Onoki manage to hit him. Just like how Edo Madara escaped sealing by using a Wood Clone, Hashi can easily do the same.

      5) Hashi's Sage Mode seems vastly superior to Naruto's. With the heightened perception and reflexes given by Sage Mode, there is very little chance of the 5 Kage's teamwork having any effect on Hashi. He's too OP for the Kages.

      So, winner is Hashirama.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: @GreatestSin, the only reason Dust Release didn't work on Madara is because Madara had the Preta Path. Otherwise, Onoki would have dusted Madara in the Five Kage Fight

      i know, i already mentioned that a few posts ago, i also think onoki would one-hit-ko him :)

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @Legendary

      Hashirama would need to be out of range from the pollen. The only reason the five kage fell victim to it was because Madara erected his Susanoo to block them onto the floor. The fact that you believe Hashirama will be able to erect a barrier to react against A who is one of the fastest shinobi in history than well you are on your own, unless he has Sage Mode activated than I doubt it. How is PS weaker than Wood Human? I've never seen Hashirama in a prolong taijutsu battle with Madara. It was always distance and ninjutsu with Hashirama. Wood Dragon can absorb chakra with things it restrains but getting hit with lava that crap is melting.

      @Naruto

      The 1000 Wood Hands will be the five kage's ultimate problem, however, this will not be the end of them. Gaara amd Onoki managed to stop a meteor. If enough chakra is given to them by Tsunade, they wipe it out or destroy most of it.

      If Madara could get out of the range of the pollen and react to A, then Hashirama can do the same with a Wood Human in place of Perfect Susanoo. Jin no Sho stated that the Wood Human was as strong as Kurama, who is stronger than Madara's PS. The Wood Human was able to catch Madara's PS' blade after all. They fought in Taijutsu as children, were later shown doing so as adults fighting in Bukijutsu as well, in multiple accounts throughout many forms of media. Even as Edo Tensei, they were shown evenly fighting in Taijutsu too wihout either losing ground. Hashirama's physical prowess is great enough to evenly combat the likes of Madara Uchiha, a wielder of the EMS, there's no way any of the Five Kage are gonna overwhelm him in that field. We saw what happened when Madara was revived with his "past power" as Hashirama called it and Madara blitzed SM Naruto (who was perceptive enough to turn the Third Raikage's attack against him, who's speed is comparable to his son's) easily. Hashirama dealt with his "past power" on throughout his whole life and evenly fought it. If Hashirama is hit by any attack, he'll just swap out with a Wood Clone. Eventually, through sheer overwhelming power combined with vastly superior stamina, chakra, durability, endurance, and his healing factor he'd end up defeating them imo without even needing to use Sage Mode.

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    • ^^^ Explain to me how Kurama is stronger than Madara's perfect susanoo when a tailed beast bomb from the complete nine tails wasn't even able to scratch it.

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    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: 2) Like others have stated, Hashi isn't just going to sit around waiting for Onoki to vapourize him. Hashi most likely knows about Dust Release, since Muu and Onoki were alive for decades before Hashi ultimately died in the first war.

      Onoki and the Kage aren't going to sit around waiting for Hashirama to sage-mode up and build his constructs either.

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    • ^ Hashirama distracts the Kage with Wood Clone, moves away from them and activates immediately Sage Mode and Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands(since Hashirama can active both of them very fast).

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: ^^^ Explain to me how Kurama is stronger than Madara's perfect susanoo when a tailed beast bomb from the complete nine tails wasn't even able to scratch it.

      The TBB that Kurama used was only a regular one which seemed to be just as powerful as a regular TBB from all the other Tailed Beasts based on the appearance and scale of the explosion they created. Just because it can withstand one TBB doesn't mean it can withstand multiple let alone a giant supercharged one. Kurama in general has shown superior firepower, durability, and endurance compared to Madara's PS.

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    • My memory seems to be failing me... Where exactly Madara's Complete Body — Susanoo tanked complete Kurama's Tailed Beast Ball?

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    • JouXIII wrote: ^ Hashirama distracts the Kage with Wood Clone, moves away from them and activates immediately Sage Mode and Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands(since Hashirama can active both of them very fast).

      The Kage distract Hashirama with Sand Clones, Dust Release, Water mixed with lightning and Sand, and then seal him in the Sand Pyramid. Which, as you might recall, was what they successfully used against Madara.

      Edo Madara possessed both Hashirama and his own power. His abilities were ridiculously beyond what either could do. He made it clear that ninjutsu can't defeat him because of the Rinnegan. The Kage were holding pretty well against him, but it's painfully clear that having both Rinnegan and being an Edo Tensei reduced their actual options to zero.

      But take that away, and the Five Kage do stand a chance. Onoki dealt with both Susanoo and Wood Structures with his lightening technique. He destroyed significant areas with his Dust Release. Tsunade repeatedly healed and restored the kage to full fighting potential. She herself took on Susanoo repeatedly, took numerous mortal hits and continued. Gaara defended against numerous Susanoo while aiding the other kage.

      I can't help but notice it always boils down to "hashirama just uses X" assuming the Kage don't do anything. Onoki and Tsunade knew the First Hokage. They know what he can do. They won't be caught offguard.

      Can i also point out the irony that Madara says only he could see through the Wood Clones, but nevertheless was defeated by Hashirama using a wood clone?

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    • Thekillman wrote: The Kage distract Hashirama with Sand Clones, Dust Release, Water mixed with lightning and Sand, and then seal him in the Sand Pyramid. Which, as you might recall, was what they successfully used against Madara.

      If that were real Hashirama, true... Except Wood Clone. Which, as you might recall, was what got Tsunade impaled with Susanoo sword.

      Now instead of that, imagine Top Transformed Buddha raining down to Kage.

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    • JouXIII wrote: My memory seems to be failing me... Where exactly Madara's Complete Body — Susanoo tanked complete Kurama's Tailed Beast Ball?

      it was during his battle against Hashirama.

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    • Thekillman wrote: Onoki and the Kage aren't going to sit around waiting for Hashirama to sage-mode up and build his constructs either.

      Except for one small thing: Hashi doesn't need a long-ass prep time to build his wood constructs or go to Sage Mode. This isn't Jiraiya vs 5 Kage. It's Hashirama, who can change the battlefield and go to Sage Mode within one second. The Kage can do whatever they want. Hashi is going to build up his wood constructs regardless. And, if he deems it necessary, Hashi can go to Sage Mode within a second, as we've seen in both Hashi vs Madara flashback and in the Fourth Shinobi World War.

      Thekillman wrote: The Kage distract Hashirama with Sand Clones, Dust Release, Water mixed with lightning and Sand, and then seal him in the Sand Pyramid. Which, as you might recall, was what they successfully used against Madara.

      Dude, Madara was holding back significantly the whole time. And in spite of Madara holding back, the Kage still utterly failed to seal Madara. Your argument doesn't really work in your favour. In fact, it implies the opposite of what you're trying to say i.e. the Kage can seal Hashirama the same way they "sealed" Madara, who actually wasn't Madara but a Wood Clone. And who's a master at using Wood Clones? Hashi!!

      Thekillman wrote: Can i also point out the irony that Madara says only he could see through the Wood Clones, but nevertheless was defeated by Hashirama using a wood clone?

      Not really that ironic. Madara had his sharingan deactivated at the end of the fight due to exhaustion. So without his sharingan, he couldn't see through Hashi's ruse.

      I can't help but notice it always boils down to "hashirama just uses X" assuming the Kage don't do anything.

      Well I'd say Hashirama uses OP jutsus P, Q, R, S,..., X. Y, Z against the 5 kage. Hashi has a fuck lot of jutsus, like Deep Forest Emergence, that pollen jutsu, Wood Dragon, Wood Golem, Wood Clone, Sage Mode, Gracious Diety Gates, that giant-ass Buddha, OP healing powers, etc., apart from his bukijutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu skills. The Kages aren't going to get past these things so easily. In fact, I'd say that it is very unlikely that the Kage will make it to Hashirama himself. The Wood can not only bind, but suck the chakra out of people. The Chakra absorption capabilities of Hashi's wood was strong enough to cancel out Madara's Preta Path.

      Thekillman wrote: Onoki and Tsunade knew the First Hokage. They know what he can do. They won't be caught offguard.

      Yes, they have some basic ideas about Hashi's powers. But as the battle against Edo Madara showed, Tsunade was completely shocked at the scale of Hashi/Madara's powers. Tsunade and Onoki don't need to be caught by surprise. All Hashi needs to do is overwhelm them. And he can do that with relative ease.

      JouXIII wrote: My memory seems to be failing me... Where exactly Madara's Complete Body — Susanoo tanked complete Kurama's Tailed Beast Ball?

      During the fight between Hashi and Madara at the Valley of the End. Kurama throws a bijuu dama at Hashi. Hashi's Wood Human catches the TBB with its hand and then hits Kurama with the TBB like a Rasengan. It was at this point that Madara used his Majestic Attire: Susanoo to protect Kurama. And it tanked the TBB without a scratch.

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    • ^ Except it was Madara's armoured Susanoo that blocked TBB. Madara didn't use MA: S on Kurama yet, he simply moved in front of Kurama, as you can see in the end of chapter 620.

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    • will sage mode hashirama be able to react to A's speed?i am sure he will have tough time countering Onoki on A's back......

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    • JouXIII wrote: ^ Except it was Madara's armoured Susanoo that blocked TBB. Madara didn't use MA: S on Kurama yet, he simply moved in front of Kurama, as you can see in the end of chapter 620.

      Yeah you're correct. It was Madara's Armoured Susanoo that tanked the TBB. Just goes on to show how strong Susanoo can be.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: @GreatestSin, the only reason Dust Release didn't work on Madara is because Madara had the Preta Path. Otherwise, Onoki would have dusted Madara in the Five Kage Fight

      EMS Madara defeated Mu and Onoki together. Onoki was too young, but Mu wasn't (for me, Mu at that time was stronger than old Onoki).

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    • Minato 87 wrote: EMS Madara defeated Mu and Onoki together. Onoki was too young, but Mu wasn't (for me, Mu at that time was stronger than old Onoki).

      didnt he simply overhelm them with fear? i dont remember any mention of actual fighting...

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    • GreatestSin wrote: didnt he simply overhelm them with fear? i dont remember any mention of actual fighting...

      "As a young man, Ōnoki was a student to the Second Tsuchikage, Mū who passed down to him the secrets of Dust Release techniques.[5] At some time in the past, Ōnoki FOUGHT with Madara Uchiha, and is the only living Kage to do so.[2] On one occasion, Madara approached them and declared that despite the alliance between their villages Konoha was to remain the dominant one and anything that Konohagakure requested, Iwagakure was to obey.[6] His knowledge of Madara's power made him wary of him, and was thus surprised that the masked man could really be him.[7] He had also encountered the Second Mizukage, his mentor's rival, and was constantly picked on by the latter (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/%C5%8Cnoki)". "This culminated in both parties engaging in battle where Mū and Ōnoki were DEFEATED (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/M%C5%AB).[7]"

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    • ^ In chapter 575, during Ōnoki's flashback there are signs of battle and Ōnoki was lying on ground injured and bleeding from his mouth.

      Also what Minato 87 said.

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    • ^^this doesnt help, as long as we dont know how strong onoki and mu had been at that time we cant say it will work the same way, maybe they didnt even have dust release until their defeat which caused its development :/

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    • GreatestSin wrote: ^^this doesnt help, as long as we dont know how strong onoki and mu had been at that time we cant say it will work the same way, maybe they didnt even have dust release until their defeat which caused its development :/

      Read this again; "As a young man, Ōnoki was a student to the Second Tsuchikage, Mū who passed down to him the secrets of Dust Release techniques".[5] At some time in the past, Ōnoki FOUGHT with Madara Uchiha, and is the only living Kage to do so.[2] On one occasion, Madara approached them and declared that despite the alliance between their villages Konoha was to remain the dominant one and anything that Konohagakure requested, Iwagakure was to obey.[6] His knowledge of Madara's power made him wary of him, and was thus surprised that the masked man could really be him.[7] He had also encountered the Second Mizukage, his mentor's rival, and was constantly picked on by the latter"; Mu was Onoki's teacher and Tsuchikage at the time when he fought with Madara and Onoki wasn't kid at that time. If Mu taught Onoki Dust Release when Onoki was young, that means that Mu learned and mastered Dust Release before he taught Onoki. Plus, will you fight against legendary Madara Uchiha if you are amateur?

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    • @Thekillman Hashirama doesn't need preparation to use Sage mode,Go see his character profile in fourth databook.It clearly states that he could enter on it instantly.

      Onoki and Tsunade knew the First Hokage'.yep they knew so well that Tsunade didn't believe that Hashirama could fight against someone like Madara,In fact I really doubt that anyone beyond Madara/tobirama knew how strong Hashirama was.

      Hashirama and Madara were equal in taijutsu when they were kids,I highly doubt that Madara and Hashirama fought against each other spamming ninjutsu the whole day.It is funny because I really don't remember of Tsunade reacting to genjutsu the whole series,but to back up the claim that she could people bring a databook stat,like really?the strongest characters in the series don't have a databook stat and it got completelly left out in databook 4.

      Just Wanted to point out that Tsunade actually had 3.5 in genjutsu not 5(She is not even a yin release user).

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    • Minato 87 wrote: Read this again; "As a young man, Ōnoki was a student to the Second Tsuchikage, Mū who passed down to him the secrets of Dust Release techniques".

      lets say at the point of the fight onoki was mus student, does that part also say at what point onoki learned dust release? or even at which point mu created dust release and teached it to mu? we cant determine if dust release was even in existence while they fought madara...

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    • Come on, @GreatestSin, you're just splitting hairs. Even if you don'n know the full extend of Madara's capabilities, in case you really want to fight him, you still can't be an amateur shinobi, and the Dust Release is the most significant skill which makes Muu and Oonoki prominent ninjas of their time. Moveover, Muu must've been in his prime at this point, it's dull to assume he was much more weaker than the old Muu (i.e. without Dust Release). In addition, when reanimated, Madara didn't express any sign of surprise after seeing Oonoki's DR in action, which means he's seen it before. And the only time he could see it was during his lifetime, i.e. during his scuffle(s) with yound Oonoki and Muu.

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    • ^im only faithful to the facts, he may or may not hhave dust release, we dont know, and more than that, dust release wasnt the only power they had, did you forget the high level earth release control which allowed flying? this is so high that not even his bodyguards mastered it... he does not only have dust release in order to be considered kage level :/

      and mu has his own unique powers like blending into surroundings and splitting into two...

      for madaras suprise: he wasnt showing much suprise about tsunades healing powers despite them being far closer to hashis than anyone elses, in the entire fight he was not showing a lot of emotions and to be fair, he isnt really someone famous for showing his emotions on his face :)

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    • 1)From where people are getting the information that Hashirama need preparation to use his Sage mode???Because here in our wikia/manga/databook 4 states that he can enter on it instatly and he kept it activated for unlimited ammount of time in the Fourth shinobi war.The sensory abilities from his Sage mode would much easier to escape from the raikage's speed or Dust Release.

      2)If Dust release is so hard to beat , so how was that the EMS Madara beated Muu and onoki ass's really hard?

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    • Kratos123456 wrote: 1)From where people are getting the information that Hashirama need preparation to use his Sage mode???Because here in our wikia/manga/databook 4 states that he can enter on it instatly and he kept it activated for unlimited ammount of time in the Fourth shinobi war.The sensory abilities from his Sage mode would much easier to escape from the raikage's speed or Dust Release.

      2)If Dust release is so hard to beat , so how was that the EMS Madara beated Muu and onoki ass's really hard?

      I think people here are just rooting for the underdogs. As for me, I simply can't see how the 5 Kages could ever beat Hashirama. Edo Madara was going sooooo easy on them and they still got their butts kicked.

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    • Hashirama wins.

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    • Kratos123456 wrote: 2)If Dust release is so hard to beat , so how was that the EMS Madara beated Muu and onoki ass's really hard?

      is it said that muu and onoki had dust release at that time? do we even know how the fight went on? maybe madara managed to genjutsu them before they even had a chance to do something and hashi is not really that impressive in that aspect :I

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    • GreatestSin wrote: lets say at the point of the fight onoki was mus student, does that part also say at what point onoki learned dust release? or even at which point mu created dust release and teached it to mu? we cant determine if dust release was even in existence while they fought madara...

      Seriously, will you fight against legendary Madara Uchiha if you are amateur?

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    • Minato 87 wrote: Seriously, will you fight against legendary Madara Uchiha if you are amateur?

      this has nothing to do with the issue (and it is a really useless counter to argue with, i can simply say that they had been overconfident in their abilitys)...

      but in all seriousness, we dont know how the fight went, we dont know if onoki and muu had even the chance the use dust release (or even had it at that point),

      i can simply say that madara won via genjutsu and since hashi doesnt have such skills the "hashi > EMS madara > onoki" is useless...

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    • 5 Kage.

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    • (maybe madara managed to genjutsu them before they even had a chance to do something and hashi is not really that impressive in that aspect :)

      Nope , Hashirama is not impressive in genjutsu at all , he and kabuto are the only characters that used a Rank-A genjutsu in the whole manga.So he must be really shit in Genjutus;;;D

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    • Kratos123456 wrote: Nope , Hashirama is not impressive in genjutsu at all , he and kabuto are the only characters that used a Rank-A genjutsu in the whole manga.So he must be really shit in Genjutus;;;D

      uchihas are generally really talented in genjutsu, they are mostly regraded as way more powerful genjutsu users (atleast from the ones we saw, even sasuke had some pretty impressive feats, and grandma of sasori said that it is over once caught in their jutsus),

      given all that, you cant simply assume he used one genjutsu at high level -> he is a talented genjutsu user ^_^

      with no info at all about the fight of the past im not sure how it is possible to decide anything regrading a five kage vs hashi fight with their current selfs :I

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    • Eh? the five kage vs the reincarnation of Asura? are ya crazy? Hashirama wins easily he has Asura`s strong body and chakra the guy has giant reserves and wood jutsu to boot not only that but he fought an EMS Madara and the nine tails at the same time alone and won a feat none of the 5 kage can ever hope to reach.

      Some are saying Onoki`s dust release but honestly that is not a problem if a living EMS base form Madara in the past could own Muu and Onoki together who both had dust release Hashirama will have no problem and that is if Onoki is even still alive long enough to use it.

      The 5 kage were outmatched by madara alone no matter which way either if he was Edo Tensei or not technically Madara never got hit at all during that whole thing and the reason Onoki`s dust release hit him was because he let him do it on purpose.... So if Hashi is strong enough to fight on par with Madara then Hashi should be able to do the same and avoid dust release easily. Not to mention high speed healing and sage mode at his use ah and immense physical strength like Tsunade has all in all I say Hashi. Madara and Hashi as Indra and Asura are just way too OP even beyond that of Naruto and Sasuke even now Lol Madara remains the only one still to not be beaten by anyone and able to kill Naruto and Sasuke both at the same time no one has done that yet heh.

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    • ^^^ Edo Madara might be stronger than TBSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke, but he's nowhere near Rinnegan Sasuke or SPSM Naruto, much less adult Sasuke and Hokage Naruto, the only form of Madara that can compete with adult Sasuke and Hokage Naruto is Rinnesharingan Madara, Hashirama is stronger than EMS Sasuke and TBSM Naruto but he's also not in the same league as SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: the only form of Madara that can compete with adult Sasuke and Hokage Naruto is Rinnesharingan Madara,

      Nope, he can clean the floor with adult Sasuke or Hokage Naruto.

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    • Third eye Madara would Curbstomp them .Naruto only grew stronger in the last he got rusty later on and Sasuke is strong but nah he ain't that strong.

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    • Minato 87 wrote:

      Uchiahmasters wrote: the only form of Madara that can compete with adult Sasuke and Hokage Naruto is Rinnesharingan Madara,

      Nope, he can clean the floor with adult Sasuke or Hokage Naruto.

      I agree, Madara would defeat either Hokage Naruto or adult Sasuke individually, I do believe Adult Sasuke teamed up with Hokage Naruto would be able to challenge Rinnesharingan Madara.

      @9artsdragon, Sasuke and Naruto were equal in the last, since then Naruto got weaker, Sasuke got stronger, so yeah he is that strong.

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: @9artsdragon, Sasuke and Naruto were equal in the last, since then Naruto got weaker, Sasuke got stronger, so yeah he is that strong.

      Give me proof.

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    • Minato 87 wrote:

      Uchiahmasters wrote: @9artsdragon, Sasuke and Naruto were equal in the last, since then Naruto got weaker, Sasuke got stronger, so yeah he is that strong.

      Give me proof.

      just watch the fight between Sasuke and Momoshiki if you actually pay attention Sasuke zips right past Naruto on a few occasions, it's pretty obvious that Sasuke has surpassed Naruto much to my frustration.

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    • Both Naruto and Sasuke together would be able to put up a fight but by no means are they winning when he excels in everything and was near hagoromo in a much weaker form

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    • 9 Arts dragon wrote: Both Naruto and Sasuke together would be able to put up a fight but by no means are they winning when he excels in everything and was near Hagoromo in a much weaker form

      Did I say they would win? No I didn't, but I agree with you on this. assuming you're talking about Madara.

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    • This is how it goes (in a nutshell)

      Hashirama gains distance (because a Taijutsu brawl against all 5 would get him killed), sends forth large Wood Styles (Dragon or Forest at least)...but oh wait! Gaara counters with massive Sands too (Tsunamis or Sand Prison Claws or Sandstorms etc) to keep him busy...Hashirama powers up to Wood Golem or lets say maybe even the Buddha...

      All it takes: Tsunade transfers all her Hyakugao chakra (just in case) to Ohonki, who hooks onto Raikage...

      Earth Style: Ultra-LightWeight Boulder (one he used on meteor) + Lightning Armor Teleportation (Top Speed punch speed) + Particle Style: Boundary Dismantling (one he used on 25 Susanoos)...

      No matter how BIG or how large Wood Style would be, point is as long as they can locate where the REAL Hashirama is and use the above combo..he dies...and it would be fast enough to execute before Hashi attacks.

      However, like I said before, they would still make Hashirama win because of Plot/ Character fave etc.

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    • Kyle Ethan wrote: This is how it goes (in a nutshell)

      Hashirama gains distance (because a Taijutsu brawl against all 5 would get him killed), sends forth large Wood Styles (Dragon or Forest at least)...but oh wait! Gaara counters with massive Sands too (Tsunamis or Sand Prison Claws or Sandstorms etc) to keep him busy...Hashirama powers up to Wood Golem or lets say maybe even the Buddha...

      All it takes: Tsunade transfers all her Hyakugao chakra (just in case) to Ohonki, who hooks onto Raikage...

      Earth Style: Ultra-LightWeight Boulder (one he used on meteor) + Lightning Armor Teleportation (Top Speed punch speed) + Particle Style: Boundary Dismantling (one he used on 25 Susanoos)...

      No matter how BIG or how large Wood Style would be, point is as long as they can locate where the REAL Hashirama is and use the above combo..he dies...and it would be fast enough to execute before Hashi attacks.

      However, like I said before, they would still make Hashirama win because of Plot/ Character fave etc.

      well it's not necessary that he will die in taijutsu with 5 kages given that he already has tsunade's monster strength in base and if he enters sage mode he will also have extraordinary reflexes with a further huge boost to his taijutsu so no they will not win in taijutsu even with weighted boulder jutsu.
      if tsunade blindly gives her chakra to even one of kage is like suicide (since she has to use this chakra to heal any damage as well as replenish chakra)since they don't have a very good sensory type they could waste all of it in destroying the wood clones and since he is in sage mode it would be very difficult to catch him offguard .
      the fight is more like that of endurance and stamina so no way the would win it given that he can enter sage mode at any given time.also nor do they have any skilled genjutsu user nor any special feat in overcoming genjutsu if Hashirama uses 'harbinger of darkeness' in sage mode it would be a whole other level than what we saw in the fight against hiruzen.so I think hey will have a tough time countering him.
      Hashirama wasn't a favourite until part 2 and besides it's because of his jutsu,capabilty etc that's he is a favourite to win the fight not the other way round.

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    • hashirama easily if madara could do it playing around then surely hashirama could do it if he could take on the nine tails and madara and his perfect susanoo alone

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    • Hashirama wins here.

      The only way I see the five kage taking him down is if they have an element of surprise or catch him at a bad time. If it's prime vs. prime, Hashirama could just enter Sage Mode, summon a few wood dragons and wood humans, and pick them off.

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    • Hashi's wood is too hard. How bad of a stomp this is only depends on how serious he is, the only way he loses is if he wants to.

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    • I think the five kage would win, madara was brought back stronger than his former self. plus hashi doesn't have the rinnegan wich makes him on a different level than hashi. The only reason he was able to win against the 5 kage was because he couldn't be killed without being sealed. Now the 1st does have the best healing powers of all time which makes him almost indestructible but it would start to wear down after a while because they would keep the fight going until they are all close to death so at that point it is whoever wants to keep going and wants it more. The 5 kage also have all different type of fighters wich makes the chances better (long ranged, close ranged, medical. Etc) so i say the five kage

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    • Dakotalust16 wrote: I think the five kage would win, madara was brought back stronger than his former self. plus hashi doesn't have the rinnegan wich makes him on a different level than hashi. The only reason he was able to win against the 5 kage was because he couldn't be killed without being sealed. Now the 1st does have the best healing powers of all time which makes him almost indestructible but it would start to wear down after a while because they would keep the fight going until they are all close to death so at that point it is whoever wants to keep going and wants it more. The 5 kage also have all different type of fighters wich makes the chances better (long ranged, close ranged, medical. Etc) so i say the five kage

      but who said madara is equal to hashirama? we all know that hashirama practically demolished madara(with kurama)with low or moderate difficulty the moment he enter sage mode and rinnegan madara is slightly better than him who was toying with all of them (he was practically waiting every time for them to overcome the jutsu he threw at them).you said that healing powers (hashirama's) were great, but why would it wear down???also the moment he enters sage mode wouldn't it increase to some insane levels???besides I highly doubt that even tsunade herself can compare with his healing power. if she can't heal herself fast enough how would she heal others?though I admit would be tough fight I believe outcome would remain same.

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    • -blinks-

      Hashi never beat Madara with anything less than his absolute best effort @NamikazeNaruto

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      Dakotalust16 wrote: I think the five kage would win, madara was brought back stronger than his former self. plus hashi doesn't have the rinnegan wich makes him on a different level than hashi. The only reason he was able to win against the 5 kage was because he couldn't be killed without being sealed. Now the 1st does have the best healing powers of all time which makes him almost indestructible but it would start to wear down after a while because they would keep the fight going until they are all close to death so at that point it is whoever wants to keep going and wants it more. The 5 kage also have all different type of fighters wich makes the chances better (long ranged, close ranged, medical. Etc) so i say the five kage

      but who said madara is equal to hashirama? we all know that hashirama practically demolished madara(with kurama)with low or moderate difficulty the moment he enter sage mode and rinnegan madara is slightly better than him who was toying with all of them (he was practically waiting every time for them to overcome the jutsu he threw at them).you said that healing powers (hashirama's) were great, but why would it wear down???also the moment he enters sage mode wouldn't it increase to some insane levels???besides I highly doubt that even tsunade herself can compare with his healing power. if she can't heal herself fast enough how would she heal others?though I admit would be tough fight I believe outcome would remain same.

      Tsunade was able to heal herself she took madaras susanoos blade right through her body with mitonic regeneration but towards the end of the fight her body couldn't keep up i feel like hashirama would do the same if it was a fight to the death

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: but who said madara is equal to hashirama? we all know that hashirama practically demolished madara(with kurama)with low or moderate difficulty the moment he enter sage mode a

      What fight have you been watching? They wore eachother out to the point where they used swords, and hashirama only beat him with a single woodclone used as a distraction. Hashirama won with extremely high difficulty.

      Edo Madara was brought back "stronger than you were in life". Madara then wonders if Kabuto knows how strong he was in life (alluding to his Rinnegan Awakening). At several point is it made clear that Madara is stronger than he ever was. He repeatedly wants to "try out jutsu" like Tengai Shinsei or Deep Forest Emergence. He was toying with them because being both an Edo and having Rinnegan makes him immune to whatever the Kage throw at him. He can't be hurt, so every sealing attempt can simply be blocked because he's always at full power, never weakened from injury or chakra use.

      Edo Madara simply isn't comparable to hashirama.

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    • Madara never had Wood Release in life as he did not have the Hashi Face on his chest then, which is why he wanted to try out the Wood Release techs once he saw he had a Hashi face on his chest as an Edo.

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    • Dakotalust16 wrote:

      Tsunade was able to heal herself she took madaras susanoos blade right through her body with mitonic regeneration but towards the end of the fight her body couldn't keep up i feel like hashirama would do the same if it was a fight to the death

      but hashirama's healing is not based on 100 seal jutsu(which stores chakra) so no it won't go down and besides if he enters sage mode he would be almost impervious to injuries.
      @asianreaper and thekillman
      madara fought hashirama several times and didn't win once because hashirama was always said to be slightly better than him throughout their lifetimes and during VOTE that slightly better was good enough to beat both kurama and madara with high difficulty.so it's quite a reasonable assumption that he would beat madara with moderate difficulty.(And killman I did watch the correct one).and besides if someone is said to be slightly better how can the same 2 person(in question) be equals....................
      and don't forget edo hashirama also matched equally with edo madara.

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    • Edo Hashirama still barely won against Edo Madara, same dif as they were in life almost

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    • TheKillMan makes a good point he didn't have wood style, rinnegan or his healing abilities when he fought hashirama so that make edo madara on a different level than everyone else. As he is right now he is stronger than hashirama

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: and besides if someone is said to be slightly better how can the same 2 person(in question) be equals...................

      Because Hashirama wasn't said to be slightly better. Hashirama ultimately won with one move better than Madara. It's difficult to tell how long they've been fighting, but that's several techniques in and no difference was made until the last move.

      As to edo: when will people realize that Edo Tensei is the biggest hack jutsu out there that gives no meaningful information? Madara can only hurt Hashirama by sealing him (presumably he can rip out his soul with Human path to end the fight), Hashirama can only seal Madara with that fencepost seal thing. A seal which was hugely ineffective at stopping madara. Destructive abilities etc don't work on Edo Tensei. You can't kill an Edo Tensei, yet that's the main method to end a fight. You can't fatigue an Edo Tensei even if that's a real limitation.

      Lastly, Madara still escaped Edo Hashirama's seal and still managed to defeat everyone. I don't see how this is a claim that "edo hashirama won"

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: and besides if someone is said to be slightly better how can the same 2 person(in question) be equals...................

      Because Hashirama wasn't said to be slightly better. Hashirama ultimately won with one move better than Madara. It's difficult to tell how long they've been fighting, but that's several techniques in and no difference was made until the last move.

      As to edo: when will people realize that Edo Tensei is the biggest hack jutsu out there that gives no meaningful information? Madara can only hurt Hashirama by sealing him (presumably he can rip out his soul with Human path to end the fight), Hashirama can only seal Madara with that fencepost seal thing. A seal which was hugely ineffective at stopping madara. Destructive abilities etc don't work on Edo Tensei. You can't kill an Edo Tensei, yet that's the main method to end a fight. You can't fatigue an Edo Tensei even if that's a real limitation.

      Lastly, Madara still escaped Edo Hashirama's seal and still managed to defeat everyone. I don't see how this is a claim that "edo hashirama won"

      @killman
      madara himself said(especially in flashback where he got sharingan) from the time in childhood to the most of adulthood hashirama was stronger.if you think otherwise, just think feat wise when did madara beat hashirama(before that 4th ninja war arc).if madara had beaten hashirama even once he would have killed him by now(since when he got sharingan only because he had pledged to do so since a kid so I hope you understand the gravity of situation.)
      PLEASE don't deny the fact that hashirama single-handedly took down both madara and kurama.even when everyone thought kurama was out of picture hashirama was still using his powers to restrain kurama till the very end.clearly it was not because of one slightly better move (but because hashirama was better ninja)had hashi's hold weakened on kurama even for a moment madara would have definitely taken advantage of situation or kurama would have gone on rampage.the difference in skill levels would have been obvious if kurama had not been their.
      as for all that fuss abt hashirama sealing madara clearly madara had all the powers of hashirama before start of fight as well as his own when both were fighting as edos. clearly this fight shows the difference in skill level.and no madara never broke free on his own rather he was freed by naruto's attackso you can say hashirama was better one.

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    • First off, he had to use Black Zetsu to make Obito use Rinne Tensei in order for him to escape the seal. How? Because Edo Tensei's are shit compared to their living selves and once Madara came back to life he gained the full power of his unnatural above prime strength, breaking the god gates. Edo Sage Mode Hashirama beat Edo Rinnegan Madara. Enough said.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: First off, he had to use Black Zetsu to make Obito use Rinne Tensei in order for him to escape the seal. How? Because Edo Tensei's are shit compared to their living selves and once Madara came back to life he gained the full power of his unnatural above prime strength, breaking the god gates. Edo Sage Mode Hashirama beat Edo Rinnegan Madara. Enough said.

      I wouldn't call Madara with being brought as an Edo with the Rinnegan and it's abilities, Wood Release, and Hashirama's regeneration ability shit. In fact, Madara was stronger than he was when he fought Hashirama at the Valley of the End. Even Kabuto said that. But if you meant other characters then even so no. Shit is when Orochimaru brought back Hashirama and Tobirama and you didn't even so all the stuff they got were able to use after "almost being close to full power" as stated by Orochimaru in Part II. Being an Edo is also already an advantage as well. You can't die and your chakra replenishes quickly.

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    • Yeah but even Edo Madara clearly got stronger once he was Rinne Tensei'd. It still proves that even after all the power-ups Hashi still had that hairs width winning edge.

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    • Serously, there are times I think about all these discussions on Edo-Madara vs Edo Hashi topic being sheer jokes. Do you guys realise that Madara was just toying with Hashi back then and obviously didn't battle with all this power? He didn't use any techniques he got via his Edo-modifications any Hashi, he used only the jutsus he already had during their battle in the Final Valley. It's clear as a day that if Madara wanted to overwhelm Hashi with all power he had at that moment, he'd have done it perfectly through using a) Rinnegan techs b) Hashi's own Wood Release against him. Madara just wanted some kind of "rematch" with Hashi, so he was holding back and didn't revert to any new jutsus possible for him due to modifications. Madara began using Rinnegan tricks (i.e. the receivers) when he realised that it's really the time to end this little game and get serious (to defeat Juubito and took his place). Hashi just managed to deceive him with the Wood Dragon grip, but it can't be called an actual victory over Madara.

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    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Serously, there are times I think about all these discussions on Edo-Madara vs Edo Hashi topic being sheer jokes.

      Same here. Madara was under the seal yet he could still easily control Obito. He wasn't trying to escape the seal because he was using Obito's nice gesture to revive himself. He battled Hashirama to kill time. I mean, when Obito was doing the plan Madara just sat and waited until Hashirama was free to fight him. The moment he was revived he started to use Rinnegan powers, restrained Hashirama and Tobirama with the receivers and stole Hashirama's chakra. If he could do that, why did he wait until he was alive? "a ninja must see through deception".


      As to Madara using Kurama, Madara had put him under summon, therefore Kurama was his summon. Discussions about Jiraiya and the Sannin involve summons, and i don't see people complain there. In fact, summons are integral to their style.

      Furthermore, Hashirama had more raw power than Madara, which you can define as "strength". But Madara with his Mangekyou has access to special techniques, which one can also see as strength. In what regards Madara considered Hashirama stronger, well i think it's clear he was talking about reserves.

      I stand by the fact that Onoki had no problems dealing with stuff like Deep Forest Emergence and even things like Susanoo were broken. Combinations of power like the Raikage with Onoki were able to overcome even insanely powerful techniques. wood clones were dealt with. A meteor -dwarfing even True Several Thousand Hands by an order of magnitude- was dealt with. If the Kage could deal with the kind of godlike crap Edo Madara threw at them, they can handle Hashirama. It's only the Rinnegan-Edo Tensei invincible combination that gave the Kage no way to win realistically. Without the Rinnegan making Ninjustu useless and without the Edo Tensei making defeat by actual death impossible, they could've handled Edo Madara.

      Hashirama can die. Hashirama can't absorb techniques. Those two facts mean that the Kage actually have a realistic path to victory, unlike the time they fought an immortal jutsu-nullifying zombie god. Jutsu only hit Madara when he felt that absorbing them was beneath him.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: Serously, there are times I think about all these discussions on Edo-Madara vs Edo Hashi topic being sheer jokes.

      Same here. Madara was under the seal yet he could still easily control Obito. He wasn't trying to escape the seal because he was using Obito's nice gesture to revive himself.
      </div>

      this is an overstatement madara never controlled obito it was black zetsu so yes you are wrong..........

      Thekillman wrote:

      He battled Hashirama to kill time. I mean, when Obito was doing the plan Madara just sat and waited until Hashirama was free to fight him. The moment he was revived he started to use Rinnegan powers, restrained Hashirama and Tobirama with the receivers and stole Hashirama's chakra. If he could do that, why did he wait until he was alive? "a ninja must see through deception".

      one thing he couldn't form those black receivers since they weren't true rinnegan that's why he couldn't access those black receivers and some rinnegan techs and besides hashirama had a jutsu to absorb chakra too so no I don't think it's a big diff and besides if you watch fight carefully he did used wood dragon against hashirama so you are wrong on this count too.

      Thekillman wrote: As to Madara using Kurama, Madara had put him under summon, therefore Kurama was his summon. Discussions about Jiraiya and the Sannin involve summons, and i don't see people complain there. In fact, summons are integral to their style.

      this argument is good one and in my favor.as summon kurama is the best one you could ever think of,(since it can heal the damage sustained with it's chakra ,it has fire- wind chakra nature, than it has tailed beast bomb,size etc).besides inorder to counter madara in this scenario hashirama never brought in summon animal by himself, he defeated both(madara+kurama) black and blue with his own power so saying hashirama being stronger than both madara and kurama together is an accurate description.

      Thekillman wrote:

      Furthermore, Hashirama had more raw power than Madara, which you can define as "strength". But Madara with his Mangekyou has access to special techniques, which one can also see as strength. In what regards Madara considered Hashirama stronger, well i think it's clear he was talking about reserves.

      I don't think its clear madara was talking abt reserves. if he was he would have just said so.and besides if hashirama had only more chakra and was inferior to madara in skill he wouldn't have won in every encounter........

      Thekillman wrote:

      I stand by the fact that Onoki had no problems dealing with stuff like Deep Forest Emergence and even things like Susanoo were broken. Combinations of power like the Raikage with Onoki were able to overcome even insanely powerful techniques. wood clones were dealt with. A meteor -dwarfing even True Several Thousand Hands by an order of magnitude- was dealt with. If the Kage could deal with the kind of godlike crap Edo Madara threw at them, they can handle Hashirama. It's only the Rinnegan-Edo Tensei invincible combination that gave the Kage no way to win realistically. Without the Rinnegan making Ninjustu useless and without the Edo Tensei making defeat by actual death impossible, they could've handled Edo Madara.

      Onoki barely managed to pass by those techniques.(luck also played a factor here) also when that meteor was falling madara was just standing their waiting to see how they would counter infact he did this everytime he used any said technique he waited for their counter patiently. if he really wanted to kill those 5 he could have curb stomp them long back. comparing .edo madara with sage mode hashi (in terms of endurance, healing power and chakra levels alone is a good approx. since he had enough strength to beat both madara and kurama as well as restrain kurama even after end of fight).
      abt that metor and thousand hands jutsu I think if that 1000 thing jutsu can take on tailed beast bomb it means it has quite a high endurance and besides that jutsu destroyed a kurama enhanced PS. whereas those 5 kages had tough time against the normal PS also abt Susanoo Wood golem is almost of same power so yes 5 kages are in for long exhausting battle.
      though hashirama not able to absorb ninjutsu and edo tensei is a huge minus but I think he can still cover all of that up with his healing and sage mode. besides hashirama can also use those frog kumite style type of attacks which the kages won't even see coming.

      Thekillman wrote:

      Hashirama can die. Hashirama can't absorb techniques. Those two facts mean that the Kage actually have a realistic path to victory, unlike the time they fought an immortal jutsu-nullifying zombie god. Jutsu only hit Madara when he felt that absorbing them was beneath him.

      and madara allowed himself to get hit, it's quite possible that hashirama can avoid those attacks and besides his healing power with sage mode makes him quite indestructible so I think he can tank hits and besides you are right abt the kages have a realistic chance of say 40% of winning the fight

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    • 5 Kage have no answer to Hashirama's 1,000 hand statue. It would go the same way akin to when Edo Madara pulled out his PS. 5 Kage have no way of winning. Edo Madara toyed with them and they lost horribly, Hashirama would just do the same thing.

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    • Madara was not holding back against Hashirama. You're in denial if you think he was. It was Black Zetsu who controlled Obito and made him use Rinne Tensei and Madara just happened to know it was going on when it happened. He smirked because he knew Hashirama's yet again victory was going to be short lived.

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    • Oh c'mon guys. Edo Madara was just toying with the Kages. And they still got buttraped. The Kage would have been fucked regardless of Madara being an Edo or possessing the Rinnegan. What the hell do the Kage have to defeat EMS Madara while he's using Perfect Susanoo? If I remember it correctly, we've seen Dust Release destroy only the Ribcage or Humanoid Susanoo. PS is leagues beyond that. I don't see the Kages doing anything against it.

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    • EMS Madara would still stomp the kages, Edo or not. They have no answer to PS. I hope that isn't being debated. He toyed with them as Edo, Madara has a habit of being a bit sloppy when he know something won't really effect him. If he was alive and EMS during the five Kages fight he wouldn't have been in the position for Tsunade to land those punches on him or Oonoki hitting him with Dust release and etc.

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    • With Dust Release, it doesn't matter about durability as proven time and time again. PS or not it will still be turned to dust (so to speak), unless you can provide evidence it won't.

      If mean toying because he knew he couldn't die then sure I guess Danzo was toying with Sasuke. While admit that knowing that you are pretty much immortal would make you a bit reckless, Madara was not toying with them, he actually had to really try. He also came back with a few perks he didn't have before so partly his lasting was due to that too.

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    • Hashirama slays like Madara. They can't really beat either, Madara treated them like children. His arrogance and regen allowed him to be pressured. Without that, he would've stomped them in the start. We've seen how Madara fights when he takes you seriously. PS right off the bat. Hashirama would throw a few near biju sized Wood Dragons at the Kage and they have no chance of winning. If worse comes to worse, he'll bust out the Wood Golem or 1000 Senju and punch the battlefield, wiping them out with ease.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: With Dust Release, it doesn't matter about durability as proven time and time again. PS or not it will still be turned to dust (so to speak), unless you can provide evidence it won't.

      If mean toying because he knew he couldn't die then sure I guess Danzo was toying with Sasuke. While admit that knowing that you are pretty much immortal would make you a bit reckless, Madara was not toying with them, he actually had to really try. He also came back with a few perks he didn't have before so partly his lasting was due to that too.

      Okay hold on there for a minute. You're conveniently shifting the burden of proof to the opposition, when actually the onus is on you to prove that the PS will be obliterated by Dust Release. Why, you might ask? Because:

      1) Nowhere has it been stated that the Dust Release can vapourise everything. Every technique has its limits. Dust Release is no exception. It has proven to be very powerful, but the manga hasn't given us any sufficient ground to conclude that it will vapourise a Perfect Susanoo.

      2) It has been shown time and again that there is a vast difference in the durability between the Ribcage Susanoo and Perfect Susanoo. Edo Madara only used the Ribcage and Humanoid forms for the vast majority of his little game with the 5 Kage. The moment he showed them the Perfect Susanoo was the moment they fell into a bottomless pit of despair. The only brief moment of hope the Kage had was when Itachi undid the Edo Tensei. But then Madara weaved the hand signs of Edo Tensei in reverse and the Kage were back into the slaughterhouse.

      3) Neither Onoki nor Muu have shown any feats against the Perfect Susanoo. Muu was easily knocked out by a Skeletal Susanoo arm while Onoki fought for sometime and got his ass handed to him. Granted, Onoki might not have mastered Dust Release yet, but Muu probably did. But the second Tsuchikage got knocked down like a bitch with just a swing of a skeletal Susanoo arm. So the first opportunity for displaying the feats of Dust Release against PS was easily lost because Muu and Onoki got owned like bitches. Heck, neither of them pressurised Madara enough for him to unleash the PS.

      So Madara:1; Onoki:0.

      The second opportunity presented itself when Edo Madara finally decided to flash his wares and unleashed the PS on the 5 Kage. Once again, Onoki did nothing and just stood there with his mouth wide open. If the Dust Release were as powerful as you suppose, then Onoki would have shown it. Since he didn't, the reasonable position to take would be to assume that the Perfect Susanoo is beyond the limits of Dust Release. It seems reasonable to concede that the Dust Release can, at most, peel away a few inches off of the surface of the PS.

      So, Madara: 2; Onoki: 0.

      This is a reasonable conclusion based on the lack of feats against PS. And in VS battles, we look at feats. Onoki had every opportunity to obliterate the PS with Dust Release. He didn't. Not only that, there is no suggestion in the manga that Dust Release could work against PS. Neither Kishi nor any other character in the manga has suggested that the Dust Release could take out PS. So that puts the burden of proof on you. YOU need to show that the Dust Release can eat the PS for breakfast.

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    • Besides, I also wondered, why Oonoki didn't deside to bump his giant Dust Release cube onto Madara's PS when the latter created it, but was standing with his mouth wide opened and even cancelled the cube the first moment he saw this PS.

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    • XShadyShadow wrote: 5 Kage have no answer to Hashirama's 1,000 hand statue.

      -cough- Onoki uses ultra lightweight rock technique. Gaara then destroys it with his sand. Hell, Onoki could destroy it by himself by lifting it up and throwing it away.

      If Ohnoki's weight techniques work on a meteor, it works on the 1000 hands.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: Besides, I also wondered, why Oonoki didn't deside to bump his giant Dust Release cube onto Madara's PS when the latter created it, but was standing with his mouth wide opened and even cancelled the cube the first moment he saw this PS.

      Because right at this moment Onoki realized that the previous time he fought Madara, Madara had held back.

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    • @Thekillman You've got to be kidding me, if that was the case then Oonoki and Gaara would've made light work of Madara's Perfect Susano'o but instead they had their mouths open like they were hypnotized. 1,000 hand statue is atleast double the size of PS. Gaara's sand can't even do anything against Madara's PS, there's no way it's standing a chance against Hashirama's buddha. Oonoki isn't even getting close to Buddha to even lighten it. "Gaara destroys it with his sand." LOL, that's the funniest thing I've read all week. Sure he does, sure.

      Yeah, that was partially the reason. That and he realized that he couldn't compete with Madara and that his dust release is absolute shit in comparison to Perfect Susano'o. PS is massive, he knew his dust release or anything in his arsenal cannot compete with it. I'm not understanding, EMS Madara would stomp the kages. Hashirama's buddha is bigger than Madara's PS and Sage Hashirama > EMS Madara. Of course Hashirama wins in a stomp against the five Kage. Onoki isn't doing anything against it, likewise with Gaara. They're fodder to Hashi.

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    • Of course the kage were in aw. To see an even stronger form of Susanoo and it was GIGANTIC! Not to mention they already used up most of their chakra, Onoki would probably only Dust Release a small portion of PS. If Onoki could be charged up by Tsunade's chakra to create a large Dust Release attack like he used to destroy all 25 humanoid Susanoo in one go, but sadly they were already tired out.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Of course the kage were in aw. To see an even stronger form of Susanoo and it was GIGANTIC! Not to mention they already used up most of their chakra, Onoki would probably only Dust Release a small portion of PS. If Onoki could be charged up by Tsunade's chakra to create a large Dust Release attack like he used to destroy all 25 humanoid Susanoo in one go, but sadly they were already tired out.

      And even if he could, his super charged cube didn't come past PS knees. I doubt it would even be enough, not that he would've gotten the chance, mind you.

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    • @Rachin123 Suggesting Onoki can compete with a serious Madara is fanfiction. Tired or not there would be nothing him and the five Kage could do against it. They realized just how futile it was the entire time when he pulled it out, them being tired or not changes nothing. I'm confident that if Madara just unsheth it's sword it would destroy Onoki's dust release in it's biggest state. Not only that but Madara can spam his sword's shockwave that would literally obliterate Onoki's dust release instantly and would traverse past it to hit Onoki. Madara's PS tanked a tailed beast bomb, so even if Onoki's dust release did hit it then it probably wouldn't do too much to be honest. Maybe just push it.

      Hashirama is no different, his buddha can utilize all four chakra releases and based on it's size it's likely more durable than Madara's PS. This and with Hashirama's sage mode he can sense attacks before they happen so he could probably just dodge it. It just shoots out two chakra natures and it counters Onoki's dust release and that's in it's biggest form so Onoki would have to muster up a considerable amount of chakra and it'd be taxing on him. Madara and Hashirama can effortlessly counter while it considerably taxes Onoki. Hashirama and Madara are chakra monsters, their reserves are massive, Onoki's is not. Hashirama stomps the five kage.

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    • XShadyShadow wrote: @Rachin123 Suggesting Onoki can compete with a serious Madara is fanfiction.

      Fanfiction you say? Just like this battle. Smh. I never said Onoki alone can go against Madara, but his Dust Release is a great counter to Madara's Susanoo. Also, like I said, Dust Release proved time and time again that durability means nothing. There is more proof that Onoki can still Dust Release Madara's PS. Now that doesn't mean he'd be able create a large size big enough to destroy it all but half of not most, most likely. And if Madara is in the vicinity, he gets caught, no escape.

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    • @Rachin123 Sorry but I'm finding it hard to take you serious from that comment. You're saying the five kage have a chance but you keep giving hypotheticals of Onoki solo'ing or competing against Madara's PS by himself. Lol, Onoki's dust release isn't getting rid of half of Madara's Susano'o especially when it only came up to it's knees. You're also ignoring the fact that Madara can just pull out his sword and it'd destroy his dust release let alone him spamming it and making a multitude of shockwaves that can split multiple mountains like butter and it would put noticeable strain on Onoki to keep trying to make a massive dust release. Madara would laugh at the attempt. And so would Hashirama.

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    • @Shadow

      I'm gonna need you to have several seats, in the back of course, because you are just misreading my comments. If you read my earlier comments from when the topic started, I definitely included the other kage and how I seen the battle would play out. I never once said Onoki solos. Please stop. What I am saying is that his Dust Release will fend best against Susanoo. You seem to think that the large Dust Release version Onoki did against all 25 humanoid Susanoos is his max he can go despite that's all he needed to get rid of them. Or could be or may not be, but what is true is that the kages were very low on chakra when edo Madara used PS, so Onoki using Dust Release would be futile. Also, it's that impressive that a mountain sized creature, sliced a mountain with a mountain large sized sword. We also have no proof that if Onoki already shoots the Dust Release technique just as Susanooo swings the sword that it would somehow cancel it. Like I said you have zero proof that durability counts when using Dust Release so anyways.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @Shadow

      I'm gonna need to have several seats, in the back of course, because you are just misreading my comments. If you read my earlier comments from when the topic started, I definitely included the other kage and how I seen the battle would play out. I never once said Onoki solos. Please stop. What I am saying is that his Dust Release will fend best against Susanoo. You seem to think that the large Dust Release version Onoki did against all 25 humanoid Susanoos is his max he can go despite that's all he needed to get rid of them. Or could be or may not be, but what is true is that the kages were very low on chakra when edo Madara used PS, so Onoki using Dust Release would be futile. Also, it's that impressive that a mountain sized creature, sliced a mountain with a mountain large sized sword. We also have no proof that if Onoki already shoots the Dust Release technique just as Susanooo swings the sword that it would somehow cancel it. Like I said you have zero proof that durability counts when using Dust Release so anyways.

      @rachin 123 I think he is talking abt size not durability. it's like that case of those 2 metors where Onoki couldn't use dust release to destroy the metors and besides even if he could , won't he loose very huge amount of chakra.
      besides I think hashirama can cancel that jutsu with his own attack making such an attempt useless(like what happened between hiruzen vs yamato in 4th great ninja war).

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    • @Namikagenaruto9 Thank you.

      @Rachin123 The only person that needs to have a seat is yourself. You really think the five kage actually have a chance against Hashirama, you really believe that Onoki's dust release would be significant against PS. Lol, think what you want but that's delusional. Someone needs to close this thread, it's so obvious that Hashirama > 5 Kage. Prime Hashirama >> EMS Madara >>> 5 Kage.

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    • @Shadow I'm already in a seat, in the front of course, and it's lovely. And I will think what I want, and what I think isn't delusional so how about you just leave the thread since you said it's so obvious who wins. Others obviously think differently.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @Shadow I'm already in a seat, in the front of course, and it's lovely. And I will think what I want, and what I think isn't delusional so how about you just leave the thread since you said it's so obvious who wins. Others obviously think differently.

      perhaps the both of you can stop acting like children.

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    • @Uchiha No one is acting like children. Nothing said is even that serious for you to mini mod so. Not to mention, I'm a moderator, I know my boundaries when disagreeing with someone on forums.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Of course the kage were in aw. To see an even stronger form of Susanoo and it was GIGANTIC!

      yup. They thought what they had seen of Susanoo (including Itachi and Sasuke's) was pretty much what you could do with it. Madara pulling out a massive Susanoo was definitely a "wow" moment.

      But like i said, Onoki believed that in the past, he fought Madara seriously. This was the moment he realized Madara had only been toying back then.


      As i said before, if Onoki's Superlightweight technique works on a gargantuan asteroid, it works on Several Thousand Hands. Saying that it's bigger than PS is irrelevant, the asteroid dwarfed every mountain visible while Susanoo was about as big as them, and a twice as big Thousand Hands is still smaller than the asteroid.

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    • The Gokage take this, they have too many deciding factors for them. Ei's speed will overwhelm Hashirama. Lava, boil, and dust release for the gokage. He will also have a tough time dealing with Gaara's sand manipulation.

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    • Prodigy hero wrote: The Gokage take this, they have too many deciding factors for them. Ei's speed will overwhelm Hashirama. Lava, boil, and dust release for the gokage. He will also have a tough time dealing with Gaara's sand manipulation.

      Not to mention that the Gokage actually enhance each other. Onoki enchances A's speed massively but can also increase his weight to enhance his weight massively, increasing both his speed and punching power while alleviating Onoki's weakness of being frail.

      Mei's Boil release destroys a Susanoo, and Tsunade has healing and reserves at least at Biju level (since she directly says you need reserves similar to Hashi's to heal without seals and she can do that with her Strength of a Hundred seal). With Gaara's sand to move them about, pull them out of danger or putting them into superior positions, the Five Kage are much stronger together than they are independently.

      EDIT: a few more things. Tsunade studied Hashirama's abilities, and is likely aware of most of what he can do. She also is a Sennin who hung out with Jiraiya and she saw Naruto's Sage mode, so that too doesn't hold any surprises for her. Information is in their advantage.

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    • Prodigy hero wrote: The Gokage take this, they have too many deciding factors for them. Ei's speed will overwhelm Hashirama. Lava, boil, and dust release for the gokage. He will also have a tough time dealing with Gaara's sand manipulation.

      Ay's speed isn't overwhelming Hashirama when he's healing constantly. Not to forget that his Sage Mode is vastly superior to Jiraiya and Naruto's. So he has enhanced perception and reflexes. Ay charges towards Hashirama. Hashi's enhanced perception will allow Hashi to either dodge the attack or simply place a Wood Clone. Or he just tanks the attack, trapping Ay in the chakra-draining woods in the process. If he dodges, Ay still gets caught in the wood. Hashi can create wood from the ground. So it doesn't matter how fast Ay is moving if Hashi is creating wood from the ground throughout Ay's path.

      Mei's boil release isn't going to do anything. Her boil release has the fatal disadvantage of affecting everyone in its range, allies included. Not to mention she needs a small, sealed space for her boil release to have enough acidity to melt the Susanoo. That shit simply isn't going to work in an open field. Even if Mei somehow managed to make the vapor really acidic out in the open, the Gokage will be harmed along with Hashirama. The difference is that Hashirama can heal while the Gokage cannot, with the exception of Tsunade.

      Mei's Lava release isn't going to do much either. Hashi has the luxury to spam forests after forests. Mei can spam Lava release only so much.

      Also, Tsunade had no idea how powerful Hashi and Madara actually were. She may know the basics of some of his techniques, but she was completely unaware of the scale of the techniques. So her knowledge won't mean much in the actual battle. Also, once Hashi finds out that Tsunade can heal with her Strength of a Hundred Seals, he can simply do what Edo Madara did and slice that bitch from the waist down. Hashi won't have a difficult time doing that.

      The only threat here is Onoki, and to a far lesser extent Gaara. The reason is not because Gaara is going to use his "sand to move them about, pull them out of danger or putting them into superior positions", it's because Gaara can fly on his sand. Same goes for Onoki. Their ability to fly makes the fight a little bit harder for Hashirama. But there's no way Gaara is just going to keep on relocating the Kages to favourable positions. He might do it once. At most, he might do it twice. After that, Hashi is going to make sure Gaara's efforts are hindered.

      Gaara himself can be taken down even in flight, as creating gigantic wood structures and forests spanning a huge area is Hashi's everyday job description. We've seen how massive and how tall these wood structures can be. So Gaara and Onoki can be easily intercepted mid-air. If Gaara is trapped, its over for him unless others come to his aid. Onoki, on the other hand, has a few more cards on his table.

      Onoki can use his Dust Release to vapourise a good chunk of Hashi's wood structures and giant forests, but that won't mean squat to someone whose chakra levels are more than that of Kurama. Hashi can simply outlast Onoki and there's nothing Onoki can do about it. Onoki attacks Hashi and his Wood Golem with Dust Release? No problem! Hashi used a Wood Clone to escape. No one except EMS Madara was capable of seeing through that trick.

      Onoki charges towards Hashirama's Wood Golem and that nasty thousand-armed Buddha? Massive wood branches branch out of the Wood Golem and surrounding areas to intercept Onoki. And as seen in Part 1, a weak Edo Hashirama would have slaughtered Hiruzen by crushing him with his Wood structures, had it not been for Enma's rescue. So Onoki will either get crushed, or he'll use the Boulder Lightening Jutsu to turn the wood into sponges. I'll bet the latter, which is why Onoki makes for a far more dangerous opponent than the other Kages.

      So Onoki breaks free with his lightening the objects no jutsu and charges at Hashi again. He either uses Dust Release again or he gets intercepted mid-air, again. Hashirama's Wood structures take some damage, but Hashi just spams those things again. Meanwhile, getting intercepted and using Dust Release again and again is simply going to wear Onoki out. Not to mention the fact that every time he's intercepted and caught, the wood drains his chakra little by little. Onoki is simply going to tire out, if not crushed by Hashi's wood like the other Kage.

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    • @ProdigyHero LOL What? Madara handled all of their releases just fine. Hashirama and Madara are near equals with Hashirama being a bit above him.

      @TheKillman You're mistaken, for starters Madara's PS was shown to be bigger than the asteriod he pulled out of space. Not only that but making the asteriod lighter didn't stop it, Gaara had to use his sand in combination. Hashirama's 1,000 hand statue is MUCH bigger than Madara's PS and the meteorite that Mads spawned. Not only that but it was an asteriod, all it does is go downwards. It cannot defend itself or take any form of action in an attempt to be stopped while Hashirama's summoning can so assuming they'd even get close enough to lighten it is funny. It also won't matter if Tsunade has seen Jiraiya's or Naruto's sage mode because Hashirama's sage mode dwarfs theirs in competency to say the least.

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    • @BakumatsuWarrior I agree with everything you said except for the wood-draining bit. Only Wood Dragon can absorb chakra from individuals

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    • @Bakumatsu Your thoughts on how Hashirama can defeat the five kage is fine in all, but they won't be attacking separately. They are working together and coordinating attacks. They did that pretty well when they fought Madara.

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    • XShadyShadow wrote: @TheKillman You're mistaken, for starters Madara's PS was shown to be bigger than the asteriod he pulled out of space.

      Please show me on what you base this. The image of Susanoo cutting mountains and the image of the asteroid falling from space made it clear that the latter was Much bigger. Hell, the asteroids could be seen by other divisions half a country away.

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    • @Thekillman This is on Naruto manga chapter 589 page 2 at the very first panel. Madara's fully stabilized Susano'o is bigger than both of the Meteorites that he dropped on the earth prior to using PS. Although they are imbedded into the ground a bit most of their size is still on display and the second one is actually being lifted a bit due to sitting ontop of the first one with Madara's PS being shoulders+ taller than it. I would use a direct scan to link it to you but I'd likely get banned. If you continue to read on Tsunade was in awh that her grandfather could fight something on the scale as Madara's PS, even Onoki was surprised when it fully stabilized due to the monster sized chakra. And it's like I said prior to this, Hashirama's 1,000 hand statue is atleast double the size of Madara's PS unless you want me to provide proof for that as well. You people really underestimate Hashirama.

      Madara also previously established that Edo tensei's are weaker than their alive version, or atleast for him and Hashirama that would be the case. So if Madara wasn't edo tensei he'd probably rape harder and this is an alive Hashirama so he'd do the same, if not more. Anyways, someone close this thread. It's more than obvious that Hashirama would win in a stomp. 5 Kage are simply outclassed, they can't compete with a demi-god.

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    • Who's the demi-god? Not Hashirama. That's for sure.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Who's the demi-god? Not Hashirama. That's for sure.

      if sage of six path is godlike than his son's reincarnation should be a demi god right...............

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    • @Rachin123 Hashirama is a demi-god. He was in an entirely different league than anyone else before the gods, Juubi, Hagoromo and Kaguya were introduced into the verse. Some people didn't even believe Hashirama's power since it was so vast.

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    • If power is all that makes up a god than I'm quite sure Superman would be a god too. He's not. He might seem like one, but he's not. Hashirama might be demi-god like, going off power how powerful he is in the series, but nope no actual demi-god. Get that straight. Not even the creator ever said such a thing. And try to use the "God of Shinobi" title because what about Hiruzen. I bet you want go and say he's a demi-god.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: If power is all that makes up a god than I'm quite sure Superman would be a god too. He's not. He might seem like one, but he's not. Hashirama might be demi-god like, going off power how powerful he is in the series, but nope no actual demi-god. Get that straight. Not even the creator ever said such a thing. And try to use the "God of Shinobi" title because what about Hiruzen. I bet you want go and say he's a demi-god.

      Methinks you're taking that demigod comment wayyy too literally. He meant that Hashirama's power isn't just one tier above the Kages individually; he's saying that Hashi was actually several tiers above the Kages. Saying Hashi is a demigod doesn't mean he's claiming that Hashi actually descended from literal gods. To the contrary, it's just a highly effective way of describing his level of power, figuratively.

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    • I'd like to point out that Madara was confirmed weaker than his prime in the war by Hashirama and he still whooped the kages while flexing with his new powers.

      A alive hashirama shouldn't even be debatable tbh lol

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    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: Methinks you're taking that demigod comment wayyy too literally. He meant that Hashirama's power isn't just one tier above the Kages individually; he's saying that Hashi was actually several tiers above the Kages. Saying Hashi is a demigod doesn't mean he's claiming that Hashi actually descended from literal gods. To the contrary, it's just a highly effective way of describing his level of power, figuratively.

      Well excuse me if I don't go around passing around titles like that. Sorry but for a claimed demi god, Hashirama is quite weak in actuality. But if you want to go and call him that, be my guest.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Well excuse me if I don't go around passing around titles like that. Sorry but for a claimed demi god, Hashirama is quite weak in actuality. But if you want to go and call him that, be my guest.

      Yeah compared to Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura, Hashi is quite weak. Compared to Indra and Ashura, he's probably close, or at most, a single tier below. Compared to everyone else, he IS in fact like a demi-god. You're welcome to disagree with that, but the rest of us prefer to draw conclusions based on actual feats.

      EDIT: Now I don't usually like that particular line of reasoning some people here use, which goes something along the lines of "Kishi's facts trump your opinions!!", but Hashi was indeed referred to as a God of Shinobi. That's what Kishi told us through the manga. He also heavily implied that Hashi is above that other "God of Shinobi" called Hiruzen, you know, the guy some of us fondly call "Mr. Zero Feats". Kabuto pretty much stated that Hashi and Madara's powers were so beyond the capabilities of the rest of the shinobi world that their powers were regarded as mere myths. That's Kishi right there telling us that Hashi is on some godlike level. By calling Hashi a "demigod",us fans are merely parroting what Kishi's saying. You should take your problem to Kishi as well if you disagree. But I think both Kishi and the rest of us are justified with the whole "God of Shinobi" thing because Hashi actually has feats that earn him the title.

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    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: Yeah compared to Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura, Hashi is quite weak. Compared to Indra and Ashura, he's probably close, or at most, a single tier below. Compared to everyone else, he IS in fact like a demi-god. You're welcome to disagree with that, but the rest of us prefer to draw conclusions based on actual feats.

      Not even Kaguya, Hagomoro and Hamura are gods. Ashura and Indra aren't demi gods. This is just titles fans give out. I have the right to point them out and I will continue to do so rather you like it or not, because it is factual.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Not even Kaguya, Hagomoro and Hamura are gods. Ashura and Indra aren't demi gods. This is just titles fans give out. I have the right to point them out and I will continue to do so rather you like it or not, because it is factual.

      Sigh....Dude, there's this thing called figurative speech. It's a widely used method to describe people or objects or situations in an effective way. You should take your complaints to linguists. This isn't the place for it.

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    • Hashirama, living Rinnegan Madara, Prime Nagato, Prime Hiruzen, Toneri, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito with both of his own eyes, and most likely a "prime Itachi" are the top of the list not including Kaguya, Momoshiki, Hag, and Hamura. Going by author facts and hype. Before Naruto, Sasuke, and Nagato reached adulthood, only Hashirama and Hiruzen were called Gods of Shinobi. I would wager Nagato, Naruto, Rinnegan Madara, and Sasuke would be called Gods of Shinobi too.

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    • @Bakumatsu

      Um last time I checked I wasn't complaining, just pointing out things. And not everyone takes things figuratively speaking as much as you do. I know Hashirama is quite strong, around the top strongest characters in the series, but even I don't go saying he's a demi god because I know what demi gods are actually capable of and it trumps Hashirama. But continue on your "figure of speech" man.

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    • Hashirama was God of shinobi he was the most powerful and the ootsusukis aren't even shinobi there irrelevant.

      The only actual gods there are in Naruto are probably deva and the rest of 6 rikudo but they may not be real and could only mean the names of the attacks who knows.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @Bakumatsu

      Um last time I checked I wasn't complaining, just pointing out things. And not everyone takes things figuratively speaking as much as you do. I know Hashirama is quite strong, around the top strongest characters in the series, but even I don't go saying he's a demi god because I know what demi gods are actually capable of and it trumps Hashirama. But continue on your "figure of speech" man.

      You know what demigods are actually capable of? So what are these capabilities? Please elaborate on that. And please make it universal. Demigods in one culture might not be demigods in other cultures. Hercules was a demigod. Yet he couldn't go around making giant forests or healing from fatal injuries. In fact, it was a Centaur's poisoned blood that killed him. On the other hand, someone who had the power to create and control forests would be regarded as a demigod or even a minor god in Greek, Hindu or Buddhist mythologies. Krishna is worshiped as a god by the Hindus, specifically as an Avatar of Vishnu. Yet he was born of mortal parents and was ultimately killed by a hunter's arrow. Another revered Avatar of Vishnu is Rama, who was also a mortal. And he too is worshiped as a god.

      So my point is:

      1) The words "god" or "demigod" have been used in at least a few mythologies to describe people of immense power and strength comparable to Hashirama's. What's more, a lot of these "demigods" were mortals and were capable of dying. So I don't see why you need to "point things out" considering the fact that the description fits the bill when it comes to Hashi.

      2) Figures of speech are entirely legitimate ways of expressing and describing things. If you want to "point things out" when people use figures of speech, I suggest you take it to every novelist, poet, playwright, essayist and literary critic that has ever existed.

      In other words, I don't see what point you're trying to make, when almost every good piece of writing contains figurative language. Why is that even a problem?

      Also, please elaborate on your views of what a demigod is "capable" of. I'm interested since I don't know much about mythologies.

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    • @Bakumatsu

      First off, Hercules was a demi god because he was born from a god and human. That's why he's a demi god. And did I say gods had to be immortal? No I didn't. Stop putting words in my mouth. Also, Hercules not being able to create forests is irrelevant. Not all gods can do that. You made zero sense there. Also, just because Hashirama can make forests, comparing to the God of Nature, he is a demi god? By that logic Kisame is a demi god too because of ability to create oceans of water. Geez stop it. You are making yourself sound ridiculous. Let this be the end of this. I am well aware of figure of speech. I am a upcoming writer, but when doing comparisons, I usually say "like" as do most people, but whatever.

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    • @Raichin: So you prefer using similes. Good for you. The rest of us are just fine with the omission of the word "like", because, you know, we are capable of understanding this thing called CONTEXT. But whatever floats your boat, bro.

      Back on topic, Hashirama wins.

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    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: @Raichin: So you prefer using similes. Good for you. The rest of us are just fine with the omission of the word "like", because, you know, we are capable of understanding this thing called CONTEXT. But whatever floats your boat, bro.

      How cute. Hmmm my English grades in college would beg to differ with you believing I don't understand context. To be very honest, some people honestky believe Hashirama is a god and isn't just using it as a figure of speech, just saying. But back on topic, I think the victory can go to either.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: How cute. Hmmm my English grades in college would beg to differ with you believing I don't understand context. To be very honest, some people honestky believe Hashirama is a god and isn't just using it as a figure of speech, just saying. But back on topic, I think the victory can go to either.

      Who cares what your college degree says about your ability to recognise context, when you're not applying that ability in this thread anyway. NOBODY here believes that Hashi is a literal god. Where did you get that from? Can you point to any comment in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, where forum members claimed that shit? If not, you're just pointing out a non-issue. Everybody here perfectly understands that Hashi being a demigod is a figure of speech. You're not even being a pedant by "pointing things out". You're just putting words into other people's mouths by claiming that they believe that Hashi is a "literal" god. NOBODY has claimed that. I don't even know why you created this argument in the fist place.

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    • @Bakumatsu

      Aw, are you mad? Oops, sorry about it. There have been people in other threads who have claimed such accusations. Excuse me if I can't clarify something. I'm not going to go through those old threads and provide the information just to prove myself to you. People on here know me, and have seen people say these things. So you must not be around when it's said or something. I also didn't create an arguement, you did by responding. I merely stated facts. I know the truth hurts but you can either deal with it or leave. Simple as that. Moving on now.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @Bakumatsu

      Aw, are you mad? Oops, sorry about it. There have been people in other threads who have claimed such accusations. Excuse me if I can't clarify something. I'm not going to go through those old threads and provide the information just to prove myself to you. People on here know me, and have seen people say these things. So you must not be around when it's said or something. I also didn't create an arguement, you did by responding. I merely stated facts. I know the truth hurts but you can either deal with it or leave. Simple as that. Moving on now.

      Ok if people seriously claimed that in other threads, then you're right: they're idiots. And I'm sorry if you've had to deal with those idiots before. But it's clear nobody's doing that in this thread. So let's bury this pointless digression.

      Now back on topic, I don't think the Kage's teamwork is enough to beat Hashi. As far as I remember, Onoki and Ay formed an effective team. Gaara contributed a lot through his sand manoeuvres. Tsunade healed the Kage at various points. Mei seemed, to my memory at least, that she wasn't that much of a team player. She teamed up with Ay with her water release and his lightning release to amplify their jutsus against Madara. And that is all I remember of her teamwork.

      But I don't think the teamwork the Kage displayed has enough offensive power to take down Hashi. I'll go reread the chapters to analyse their teamwork further.

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    • If someone stands far about others, then at some point there's no real distinction anymore between "as-if a god" and "god".

      Kaguya is a god, there's nothing to suggest even high levels of power are available and compared to her, a normal shinobi is just a muggle. Therefore, "so powerful she can be considered a god" can just as well mean "she's a god".

      Some people mix that up with tiers of power, calling anything beyond Biju-level a "god". Hashirama is technically a "god" (since he IS called a "god of shinobi") but that would refer to his title, not his actual power level. As you can see, "god" means different things to different people, and can even mean different things in the same sentence.

      As to the topic at hand, it's true that Hashirama is powerful, but that doesn't mean he can't be defeated, or that a group of individually less powerful people can't defeat him. Considering that Edo Madara can't be 1-on-1 substituted for Hashirama, and that they did manage to hold their ground against him, shows that they do possess sufficient strength to be worthy of consideration. That is, the idea of the fight is acceptable.

      As to stuff like the Meteor sizes, the debris on the ground doesn't match up even remotely to the meteor dropped. To begin with, they were clearly shown to be spherical in every other shot but what's on the ground can barely be formed into one sphere, let alone two. It's safe to say the first one was reduced to gravel and the second one heavily damaged.

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    • @BakumatsuWarrior Thank you for clarifying. I just don't think he understands and is taking it way too literal or trying to make it universal.

      @Thekillman I do agree that a group of less powerful people could beat Hashirama but their combined efforts together must surpass him, sadly that isn't the case for the five Kage. You're sadly mistaken in reference to the 5 Kage actually holding their ground against Madara. They didn't, not even close.

      Madara was clearly toying around with them until the end, then even after that Madara still stomped without PS. We don't know what he did but prior to it he stated he wasn't gonna pull PS out again and that it'd be disgraceful, next panel the five kage are all a bloody mess and Tsunade was torn in half by Madara, Madara appears again and was shown not even breaking a sweat. He didn't even acknowledge it until Naruto asked what happened. So in correction, the five Kage can hold their own against a Madara not being serious, or toying around sure. But against Madara actually trying and giving effort, they get ass raped. Hell, Madara didn't even have his Gunbai weapon.

      In terms of the meteorite thing it's debatable if Madara's PS is bigger than it or not but Hashirama's buddha is doubled that in size, so the simple fact that the meteorite and Madara's PS is comparable means Hashirama's buddha HAS to be bigger.

      In Edo Madara's fight against Hashirama he instantly pulled out PS, if Edo Madara did that to the Kages at the start the fight wouldn't have lasted more than a chapter. Hashirama is stomping the kage, he has better reaction time, stronger chakra, higher durability, more experience, 1,000 hand buddha, Wood golem, wood dragon, forest pollution (Might I add the Kage fell to this against Madara.) and so much more going for him. His raw chakra completely dwarfs theirs, nothing suggests the 5 Kage actually have a fighting chance against a serious Hashirama.

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    • @Shadow

      As I already told @Bakumatsu that some people actual believe them to be gods, literally. I know this isn't the case with everyone. Some just use it to represent how powerful they are in the respective series. I personally wouldn't go around calling them gods or demi gods, even if it's meant figuratively, but that's just me.

      So Madara is only serious when using his strongest move from the very beginning? By your logic, Guy wasn't serious when battling Kisame until he went Gates. He was just "toying" with Kisame.

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    • @XShadyShadow: I agree with everything you said, except for the relative size of the PS and the meteors Madara pulled with his Tengai Shinsei. The meteor is definitely bigger as its area enveloped the entire shinobi squadron Gaara and Onoki were leading.

      But that is irrelevant to this fight because Hashi has little use of his Thousand-Armed Buddha against the 5 Kage. That jutsu is meant to deal with something as big and powerful as Kyuubi, Perfect Susanoo and Majestic Attire: Susanoo. The Kages don't have any jutsu of that scale and don't have any giant summons comparable in size to Kurama. So using the thousand-armed Buddha would just be a waste of chakra. Hashi can simply defeat the Kage with his other Wood Jutsus that are smaller in size but more precise in weeding out the Kages.

      Also, yeah you're right in pointing out that Madara didn't use his PS to slaughter the Kage. He claimed that his PS was reputed throughout the ninja world as a jutsu that a shinobi (other than Hashirama) could see only once, because they wouldn't survive the encounter to see it again. And since Edo Madara was temporarily destabilized due to Itachi undoing the Edo Tensei, he thought that it would be a disgrace to unleash the PS again, which would mean that the Kages would be given the opportunity to witness the might of the PS for a second time. So Madara simply butchered the Kage with something else; something less powerful. He could have easily done that in the beginning, but instead he was just toying around.

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