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  • Sarutobii2
    Sarutobii2 closed this thread because:
    Closed for business.
    05:29, January 30, 2016

    It appears to me that alot of people in the naruto fandom treat this kage level shinbo renowned as the God of shinobi like he is fodder. Many claim he is featless and that him being powerful was just poor writing. I'm making this post to debunk these claims , using evidence directly from the manga. Consider these facts:

    Hiruzen was a Master of all 5 elements, not simply just a user of them. No one in the series is as versatile as Hiruzen when it comes to the use of the 5 elements. He, as an edo tensi of his 69 year old self who was close, but not 100 percent full power, was able to effortlessly match the power of the mini shinsenju summoned by Swirl Zetsu , element for element. This is a big feat because you look at the manga panel carefully, you can see how huge the attacks were, they were absolutely humongous and were gonna demolish a good portion of the shinobi alliance. But Hiruzen easily countered the attack .


    Tobirama Senju, one of the smartest people in the naruto universe( definitely top 3) and one of the strongest kage, even one of the strongest shinobi period, looked at a young Hirzuen in the middle of War, and told him that he was going to be entrusted with the future of the village. Consider the fact that Tobirama worked pretty hard to build the village with his brother and the uchiha, and that he cares about the village so much that as a reanimation he was willing to kill Sasuke just at the thought sasuke was gonna destroy the village. He died protecting the village in the first place. So the fact that he chose Hiruzen is not only a testament to Hiruzen's character, it was a testament to how powerful Hiruzen was at the time. Hiruzen was trained by both Tobirama and Hashirama, who again are among the strongest shinobi in history itself. This in itself is a pretty large feat for Hiruzen who wasn't even in his prime yet.


    Hiruzen was the only Konoha kage to survive his entire tenure, and heck even had two tenures as Hokage and lived to age 70. This is a feat of intelligence and his power, because Danzo tried to kill him multiple times often using assassins and Konoha had been through a few wars. Don't get me wrong, Hiruzen did make many poor decisions as Hokage, but those were due to his emotional weaknesses not because of a lack of intellect. Speaking of his intellect:

    Hiruzen was known as the professor of Konoha, had great knowledge on the use and application of all the jutsu in the village, and consider that Konoha has the most overpowered jutsus out of all the villages. So just off of that his arsenal is incredibly huge, adding to his already insane amount of versatility. The Death Reaper Seal+ shadow clone combo alone is pretty deadly.


    A 70 year old Hiruzen was able to fight his former sensi and again among the strongest shinobi in history, the Senju brothers, to a draw and sealed their souls away. Now, yes Hashirama and Tobirama were much weaker than they were in their prime and didn't have access to all of their abilities, however Hiruzen's handicap was even worse, as at least the Senju brothers had immortal bodies, weren't old, and didn't have diminished chakra reserves. Even Orochimaru openly admitted that if Hiruzen was ten years younger, orochimaru would have been dead multiple times over. Hiruzen still was able to muster out the chakra for two shadow clones and cast the death reaper seal. So imagine if he was able to make a 3rd or fourth shadow clone like he did in the war? that would have changed the battle dramatically.


    So most of the doubt about Hiruzen's abilities comes from the fact we have seen little of him in action, which can be said about a lot of shinobi in Naruto. But the little he has shown in weaker versions of himself all were impressive feats.

    Feel free to comment and give rebuttals.

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    • There's no real point in debating this. There's very little to go on, and the more you try to explain it, the more it sounds like grasping at straws, even when it's not.

      It's clear that Kishimoto had no idea, concept or storyline for Hiruzen beyond merely being the professor and the grandfather type for the village. He was put under Edo Tensei only because Kishimoto needed Hashirama and Minato there for the battle, and he had no excuse not to bring back hiruzen. Note that unlike every other Edo Kage that gets to do something awesome against Obito, Hiruzen just sort of leaves. I don't even think he launches any form of attack against Obito directly. Why not? because the Edo Hokage plotline existed for no other reason than the Minato/Naruto reunion and the Madara/Hashirama faceoff.

      It's interesting to note though that even though Orochimaru brought back Hashirama so strong that he couldn't control him, he didn't do the same for Hiruzen. (unless you want to imply that Hiruzen's prime was still in his 60's)

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    • There is a lot to go on. Read through the post. Where am i grasping at straws? What are you talking about , sasuke asked to speak to all the former kages, and fortunately all of them were trapped in the Shinigami. He fired off shurikens at obito because they were testing abilities against a completely new opponent. All of the edo tensi were damaged during that battle because they know they will regenerate. Hashirama doesn't get to do anything against obito either because madara fights him. Only Tobirama and and Minato got action vs obito, and none of the kages had any action against Juubi Madara. So I dont understand what any of this has to do with Hiruzen. Hiruzen was brought back the same way he was when he died so he obviously is limited. Hashirama and Tobirama were brought back in their prime because that's how they died. The only person who wanted to break free was Tobirama. Hashirama never tried to break the edo tensi , Orochimaru just said Hashirama could if he wanted to.

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    • Hiruzen was trained from age 6 by Hashirama and Tobirama, at age 70 he fought Orochimaru who remarked that if only 10 years younger Hiruzen would take out him and the Edo's he summoned(Hashi and Tobi somewhat weakened) easily. Hiruzen had knowledge of all Jutsu within Konoha including Hiden and knew how to counter and defeat them.. he even knew how to use all the non-Hiden and non KKG Jutsu plus he invented his own Jutsu. He did not have a KKG and did not use Senjutsu and was not an incarnate yet he EARNED his title of God of Shinobi being the third person EVER to get that title after Hagoromo and Hashirama. Danzo who was fully prepared to fight Sasuke then "Madara" afterwards didn't dare attempt to fuck with Hiruzen personally as he always had to manipulate events or have assassins try to do so which still failed. Madara Uchiha while he was still alive in his little tree basement never even attempted to mess with Hiruzen. Hiruzen was the first to and easily deduced the make-up of the TSB's. He was also known as the Professor for his intellect and knowledge. He also had TWO tenures as Hokage and only at age 70 did he finally die(sacrificing himself albeit) He had mastery and usage of all elements. Kishi said he was strongest in his prime, so he is strongest in his prime. You readers/fans can say whatever you want but it changes nothing and it just ends up being your opinion vs the writers fact. You don't like it?? Suck it up buttercup theres more shit in the world to worry about.. such as reality. Not to mention Hanzo even in his prime never attempted to fuck with Hiruzen and if he did obviously he didn't win ever. Only SPSM Naruto, any TTJ, Kaguya, Momoshiki, Hagoromo and Hamura can definitely beat him. Everyone else is fair game.

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    • Thekillman wrote: It's clear that Kishimoto had no idea, concept or storyline for Hiruzen beyond merely being the professor and the grandfather type for the village. He was put under Edo Tensei only because Kishimoto needed Hashirama and Minato there for the battle, and he had no excuse not to bring back hiruzen. Note that unlike every other Edo Kage that gets to do something awesome against Obito, Hiruzen just sort of leaves. I don't even think he launches any form of attack against Obito directly. Why not? because the Edo Hokage plotline existed for no other reason than the Minato/Naruto reunion and the Madara/Hashirama faceoff.

      Couldn't have said it any better.

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    • Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage bar SPSM Naruto. Deal with it.

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    • Nobody's denying that Hiruzen was strong. We're denying a specific statement that was made early in the series i.e. "Sandaime Hokage was the strongest hokage in Konoha's history." That shit was uttered by Iruka and Kabuto. We know that shit was retconned in Part 2 with the rising prominence of Madara and Hashirama. So no, Hiruzen was NOT the strongest hokage after SPSM Naruto; it was Hashirama. Most of us accept that he was perhaps the second-strongest Hokage (excluding Naruto), but definitely not the strongest.

      The manga gives ample proof of that. Dan Kato, Tsunade's sweet little boy toy, claimed that ONLY HASHIRAMA COULD STOP MADARA. Dan lived at a time when Hiruzen was both young and in his prime (most probably in his mid-30s). He also lived at a time when the memories of Hashirama and Madara were still fresh enough. So Dan is a shinobi who was best placed to gauge the power of Prime Hiruzen against Hashirama and EMS Madara. And what did he say? Yeah: ONLY HASHIRAMA CAN DEFEAT EMS MADARA. No mention of Hiruzen whatsoever.

      So suck that, you Hiruzen fanboys. You talk about Kishi's "facts" without referencing any credible source. Just name the translator of the DB4, and then name other translators who have cross-checked those "facts" that are supposed to be in DB4. Just naming one lone translator isn't enough, because a lone translation is not VERIFIED.

      So until you do that, the rest of us will continue relying on MANGA LORE that says loud and clear that Hashirama was the strongest Hokage who didn't need asspulls to grow stronger. The entirety of Part 2 was dedicated to the glorification of Madara, and how only Hashirama was the only one who could defeat him. SM Kabuto himself states that Hashi and EMS Madara were so inhumanly strong that almost no one in the current generation believed that the legends were true. Tsunade herself was shocked at how powerful Madara was, and she had struggle believing that her grandfather could beat someone that strong. That's manga lore for ya, which is always more important that some obscure databook most people outside of Japan can't buy anyway.

      TL;DR: Nobody's denying Hiruzen was powerful. The only point of contention is his Part 1 description as "the most powerful Hokage ever". We know that shit has been retconned, and that Hashi was the strongest, followed by Hiruzen perhaps. Time to move on.

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    • It should also be noted that the Databooks are not always correct, as the second databook stated that the Amaterasu's flames are as hot as the Sun.

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    • I think hiruzen was the best kage of his time , not the best hokage. The senju brothers definitely top him if you compare their stats. Im just pointing out he does get all the hype he deserves bar maybe being the strongest hokage. he sun has different temperature depending on which part you are talking about. Even lightning I believe is as hot as the sun.

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    • @MlGshinobi Hiruzen can't destroy a mini wood statue while Hashirama can summon a regular one, which also means Hashirama can destroy a regular one. Hiruzen can't defeat Kyuubi, while Hashi captured all the Tailed Beasts. Mind you that Hashi captured Kyuubi while fighting the strongest Uchiha ever using Perfect Susanoo which is on par with a Tailed Beast, or in other terms fighting 2 Tailed Beasts at the same time, and winning. I rest my case.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: It should also be noted that the Databooks are not always correct, as the second databook stated that the Amaterasu's flames are as hot as the Sun.

      The temperature of the sun ranges from anywhere between 6000 and several million degrees. An acetylene blowtorch reaches (core) temperatures of up to 20 000 degrees. Don't look too much into comparisons like this, or things like "as strong as steel" as steel can be more than ten times stronger than itself, since steel is an alloy and depending on how you pick your parameters, it's either weaksauce or godlike.

      MlGshinobi wrote:

      There is a lot to go on. Read through the post. Where am i grasping at straws?

      I'm a big proponent of the idea that Hiruzen's claim of power is true. But i also spent a lot of time thinking about it (boring train rides) and i don't think there is enough convincing evidence. Most of it is just people talking about Hiruzen, and what little we see of him is in old age. Even as an Edo Tensei he's in his weak form.

      We don't know what Prime Hiruzen is supposed to be, because we never saw it.

      Georgio722 wrote: @MlGshinobi Hiruzen can't destroy a mini wood statue while Hashirama can summon a regular one

      Going by looks, Edo Hiruzen is not much younger (60-ish) than when he died. When he died, he could barely create a shadowclone without dying from the side-effects. Yet, Hiruzen is the longest sitting hokage (Naruto can beat him maybe) and either the longest or second longest reigning Kage in Shinobi history (depends on when Onoki became Kage).

      Georgio722 wrote: Hiruzen can't defeat Kyuubi, while Hashi captured all the Tailed Beasts.

      Wood Release is the power of the Juubi, which is why it's so strong against Biju. That's like saying Hashirama can bring down a vault door, when he simply has the key.

      Georgio722 wrote: Mind you that Hashi captured Kyuubi while fighting the strongest Uchiha ever

      When did a Prime Hiruzen ever get to fight a strong shinobi? He mostly left the Kyubi attack to Minato, the Hokage, while he ensured the safety of the villagers (remember that Kyubi was summoned in the middle of Konoha and every step he takes will kill dozens of villagers). He didn't even get to see the Masked Man or get a chance to fight him whatsoever.

      During the 4th war he was mostly absent from any kind of important battle other than once more helping the regular folks. We don't know if he pulled a Naruto and sent shadowclones to every part of the battlefield to help, or was just present at the Wood Statue. We don't know if Spiral Zetsu continuously remade and repaired the statue(After Karin destroyed it, Spiral Zetsu announced his job was done).

      So if you think about it, what do we really know about Hiruzen's strengths, abilities? We know him as a frail old man far past his prime, and as a reanimation not far from that point. We know nothing of what kind of stuff he pulled. No stuff of legends like the Raikage or Minato going against entire armies on their own. No stuff of legends like facing Legendary Ninja. He didn't even fight Orochimaru, he fought his Edo Tensei.

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    • all of this is really funny haha we never saw hiruzen in prime age he is featless. deal with it

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    • Thekillman wrote: Wood Release is the power of the Juubi, which is why it's so strong against Biju. That's like saying Hashirama can bring down a vault door, when he simply has the key.

      Hashi doesn't need the Wood Release special eat-TB-chakra ability to be stronger than Hiruzen. Hashi can defeat a Perfect Susanoo, which has powers on par with a TB, and is also known to be an absolute defense, and is also used by the strongest Uchiha and definitely one of the strongest ninjas at that time, proving this enemy's immense power. Not saying Hiruzen is weak, but he's just not as strong as Hashi. Even if he's in his prime, I still don't think he can surpass Hashi, but I do believe that he can be on par with Hashi. He definitely deserves his hype, being one of the only people without god power-ups to be on par with god power-ups though (back to thread).

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    • Hiruzen in prime is the strongest Hokage bar Naruto. Deal with it.

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    • Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen Prime, Hashirama had insane healing abilities, huge chakra, biju control, Mokuton and 5 natural elements, bringer of darkness genjutsu, Senjutsu, and the hugest wooden-statue we've ever witness. Hiruzen couldn't even defeat the much smaller version with unlimited chakra ET version, even if in his prime he could've defeated that, Hashi's size was insanely overwhelming. also, you cant just say that Hiru is stronger cause we've never seen him fight in his Prime. + we've seen him fight 12 before Naruto series started alongside dozens of elite Konoha shinobi against the Kyubi...and well it wasn't godlike.

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    • Prime Hiruzen was strongest Hokage bar Naruto. Deal with it.

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    • here we go again,I Really don't have anything else to say about this non-sense prime hiruzen thing.hiruzen at his best was the 3 strongest character in naruto universe.also the databooks so far I remember only mentions hiruzen being the strongest kage of his genartion.Also only hashirama could defeat madara,how madara himself already said that.Hashirama character description in the 4 databook confirms him as the strongest hokage in naruto universe(narutotard with his nonsense power up is the strongest now)


      Hiruzen is strong I'm sure of that,we have never had the oppurtonity so see how strong he was in his prime(but we know that in his prime he coudn't match someone like madara for example)he is basically featless,the only impressive feat that he has is that he mastered all 5 basic natures through normals means without any help of any KKG.

      Also just to make it clear all characters that mastered the 5 natures can use it,the same way hiruzen did it.

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    • Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage bar Naruto. Deal with it.

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    • Well guys, time to face the TRUTH: QuakingStar is a Kage-level troll. Deal with it! There's nothing to debate here anymore. Let's move on.

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    • True. He said all he can, sadly it's wrong, no matter how often he repeats it. But apparently, he can't deal with it. Nothing to do here anymore.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage bar Naruto. Deal with it.

      funny how you like kishimoto's facts,but is too lazy to search for hashirama's character descreption in the 4 databook,where it confirms him as the strongest Hokage ever.My guess is that you're just trolling.

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    • Edo hiruzen didnt have unlimited chakra. If he did he would make inifnite shadow clones. I dont get where people got the concept edo tensi have infinite chakra because minato said he was too exhausted to use jutsu at one point, tobirama could onky use 2 shadow clones while holding the barrier, and muu couldnt make multiple copies of himself. I never claimed hiruzen can beat hashirama but I wanted to be clear that hiruzen is as a very capable hokage and does deserve the hype he gets.

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    • Godsenju
      Godsenju removed this reply because:
      stupid comment
      04:11, January 30, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • BakumatsuWarrior wrote: The manga gives ample proof of that. Dan Kato, Tsunade's sweet little boy toy, claimed that ONLY HASHIRAMA COULD STOP MADARA. Dan lived at a time when Hiruzen was both young and in his prime (most probably in his mid-30s). He also lived at a time when the memories of Hashirama and Madara were still fresh enough. So Dan is a shinobi who was best placed to gauge the power of Prime Hiruzen against Hashirama and EMS Madara. And what did he say? Yeah: ONLY HASHIRAMA CAN DEFEAT EMS MADARA. No mention of Hiruzen whatsoever.

      This Could Just Be Plot For The Reincarnation Curse Of Hatred Shit Tho.

      MlGshinobi wrote: Edo hiruzen didnt have unlimited chakra. If he did he would make inifnite shadow clones. I dont get where people got the concept edo tensi have infinite chakra because minato said he was too exhausted to use jutsu at one point, tobirama could onky use 2 shadow clones while holding the barrier, and muu couldnt make multiple copies of himself. I never claimed hiruzen can beat hashirama but I wanted to be clear that hiruzen is as a very capable hokage and does deserve the hype he gets.

      I'm Fairly Sure It Was Said By Kabuto Or One Of His Reanimations That They Have Infinite Chakra, I Think It Was Itachi Or Something. EDIT: Its Not Infinite Chakra, Its Infinitely Refilling, So They Won't Have Infinite Chakra On Hand. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning:_Impure_World_Reincarnation#Enhancements Second Paragraph Here.

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    • MlGshinobi wrote: Edo hiruzen didnt have unlimited chakra. If he did he would make inifnite shadow clones. I dont get where people got the concept edo tensi have infinite chakra because minato said he was too exhausted to use jutsu at one point, tobirama could onky use 2 shadow clones while holding the barrier, and muu couldnt make multiple copies of himself. I never claimed hiruzen can beat hashirama but I wanted to be clear that hiruzen is as a very capable hokage and does deserve the hype he gets.

      Unlimited chakra in the sense that the Edo Zombie's maximum chakra pool is refilled almost immediately. NOT in the sense that the Edo Zombie has access to infinite amount of chakra at a given instant. This means that the maximum amount of chakra a Zombie could use at a given instant will be somewhere near the maximum amount they could use shortly before their deaths. However, Edo shinobis have infinite chakra in the sense that they can't get exhausted, since their chakra is refilled immediately after they exhaust them.

      A good demonstration is Edo Hiruzen using 5 kage bunshins to counter Guruguru Tobi's Wooden Statue Elemental Attacks. During his fight with Orochimaru, Hiruzen could create only 2 clones safely. But in Edo form he effortlessly created 5. The difference is that in his Edo form, his chakra got refilled immediately, so there was no need for worrying about death from chakra exhaustion.

      Lastly, Tobirama being able to create only 2 shadow clones doesn't necessarily contradict the version of "infinite chakra" I just described. Remember that Tobirama and the other Hokages were focused on confining the Juubi within the Red Barrier.

      So now let's say Edo Tobirama's total chakra capacity at any instant is X. Let the amount of chakra required to maintain the Red Barrier be A. Then, the remaining chakra available to Tobirama that can be used for any purposes other than maintaining the barrier will be (X-A). Let us call this Y i.e. (Y = X-A).

      The reason Tobirama couldn't make more than two clones is because he only had access to Y, not X. That's because a good proportion of his chakra was already devoted to maintaining the barrier. Tobirama could have created more clones if he wanted to, but then the barrier would have collapsed.

      In normal circumstances, Tobirama would have been extremely exhausted after creating the clones. But as Edo Tensei, he was not exhausted. That's because the moment he spent his remaining amount of chakra (Y=X-A), that chakra got replenished immediately. Same thing applies to the chakra he continuously used to maintain the barrier.

      TL;DR: Edo Zombies have infinite chakra only in the sense that the chakra expended can be refilled again and again and again until the jutsu is cancelled out. It doesn't mean access to godlike amounts of chakra at any given time. That gave Hiruzen quite an advantage, and he could have defeated Guruguru eventually. Sadly, Kishi didn't go that way.

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    • ^ I Basically Just Said That, But A lot Shorter. XD

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    • Prime Hiruzen is strongest Kage bar Naruto according to Kishi and his facts.

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    • Insult another user, and you'll find yourself blocked again Quakingstar.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Prime Hiruzen is strongest Kage bar Naruto according to Kishi and his facts.

      I seriously can't understand how you are a member of this wiki since 2011 and still think that in insulting others, you can get your point across. Honestly, in just one week, you threw around at least three insults, as if you would think everybody would then side with you. And you call the behaviour of others sad? Such a joke.

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    • Yet you sad people consistently insult me the moment I reply to anything about Hiruzen. You people need to see therapists and I'm not even joking. @Sarutobii2 give me one goddamn good reason why you haven't given any such warnings to Bakumatsukid and the other SAME FUCKING people who follow me around and immediately contest me on ANYTHING I comment on and pretty much say I'm stupid, a joke, sad, or my opinions and comments are wrong no matter what it is, adding sly and condescending insults then expect me not to reply back the same way??? There is nothing wrong with me repeating my comments about prime Hiruzen, freedom of speech applies to the internet in its entirety as long as its not physical threats or hate speech. PRIME HIRUZEN IS THE BEST HOKAGE, BAR NARUTO. KISHI'S ******* FACTS SAY SO.

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    • There is a difference between "you are wrong" and "you are a retard who needs therapy", buddy. I thought this would be common sense though.

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    • I'm not your buddy. I'm not your friend. You don't know me. Don't talk to me, you're dismissed little kid.

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    • True I don't know you, yet the bit I see from you tells me enough I need to know about you. ;)

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    • And now this stops. Seriously, this is once more getting nowhere.

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    • No it really doesn't userboy. Why don't you go walk into traffic now and shhhh when grown folks are talking. Go play with your batman toys or your lego blocks ok little one :)

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    • Geez versus threads gets so hyped for no reason. It's FICTION! If you guys don't agree with one another's opinion then at least learn to disagree with one another's opinions in a well mannered way without blatantly criticizing each other, otherwise you'll just be creating unnecessary problems and what good would that really do for you.

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    • @Quaking I can't give "Bakumatsukid and the other SAME FUCKING people" warnings for stating their opinion. What i can do is give warnings to users who go out of their way to insult everyone.

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    • Thanks Rachin! I don't even know why I bother with this so much, it's always the same. People can't agree with the other's opinion and are therefore "retarded", "Kage-level trolls", "clueless" and so on and so on. Such childish behaviour from all sides, can't we just stop it once and for all?

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    • Norleon pointed these out afterwards. "retarded" "kage-level troll" "clueless". How is that not insults to me Sarutobii2? or are you being biased here??

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    • QuakingStar wrote: "retarded" "kage-level troll" "clueless". How is that not insults to me Sarutobii2? or are you being biased here??

      Come on man..... :/

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