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  • Why have Gaara not Magnet Release anymore? Kakashi also didnt have the sharingan and its in his kekkei genkai list?

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    • Once again, no where in the 4th databook or manga was it stated or shown that Gaara had magnet release, according to our translator. Gaara just has chakra-infused sand as far as this wiki is concerned.

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    • so can we add sand manipulation as its special ability/unique traits because for me it is very advance form of earth release and as we know he is only one who can use it purely

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    • i still think he shouldve had it due to him being a former jinchuuriki of shukaku plus not to mention he does have earth and wind natures that make up magnet release otherwise his ability to manipulate sand should be a unique trait

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    • Dracoblaze58 wrote: i still think he shouldve had it due to him being a former jinchuuriki of shukaku plus not to mention he does have earth and wind natures that make up magnet release otherwise his ability to manipulate sand should be a unique trait

      Unfortunately, this can only be assumed. Since the 4th Databook "disproved" it.

      I second the motion for "Sand Manipulation"

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    • Questionaredude wrote:

      Dracoblaze58 wrote: i still think he shouldve had it due to him being a former jinchuuriki of shukaku plus not to mention he does have earth and wind natures that make up magnet release otherwise his ability to manipulate sand should be a unique trait

      Unfortunately, this can only be assumed. Since the 4th Databook "disproved" it.

      I second the motion for "Sand Manipulation"

      yeah it is unfortunate.. and yeah "disproved" i agree. im just saying gaara should atleast have it as being a former jinchuuriki of shukaku sense shukaku gives its jinchuriki magnet release. and also unique traits Sand Manipulation its like kakashi losing his sharingan yet its still on there but then again that could be an entirely different matter *shrug*

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Once again, no where in the 4th databook or manga was it stated or shown that Gaara had magnet release, according to our translator. Gaara just has chakra-infused sand as far as this wiki is concerned.

      Yeah, Kinda the giant leap that was made to create the magnet release on the article, kinda like the jump to judgement that Amaterasu is blaze release, even though no media has confirmed this. Which you later deleted my comment, and blamed me for it. This place seems beyond selective, almost too selective filled with contradictions. Shukaku in this wikia is stated to have "Magnet Release".

      "But man the problem is he was extracted" So was Kakashi's Mangekyou, so were from the other ninja who died as a result of them being captured by the Akatsuki. I don't have a problem with this broken logic. But at least have the decency of keeping it consistent. Not this intangible meatball of "let's just toss it on the wall and hope it sticks.

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    • Questionaredude wrote:

      Dracoblaze58 wrote: i still think he shouldve had it due to him being a former jinchuuriki of shukaku plus not to mention he does have earth and wind natures that make up magnet release otherwise his ability to manipulate sand should be a unique trait

      Unfortunately, this can only be assumed. Since the 4th Databook "disproved" it.

      I second the motion for "Sand Manipulation"

      The databook didn't really "disprove" it, rather the databook's overwhelming silence on it serves as a logical conclusion that disproves it.

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    • New World God wrote:

      WindStar7125 wrote: Once again, no where in the 4th databook or manga was it stated or shown that Gaara had magnet release, according to our translator. Gaara just has chakra-infused sand as far as this wiki is concerned.

      Yeah, Kinda the giant leap that was made to create the magnet release on the article, kinda like the jump to judgement that Amaterasu is blaze release, even though no media has confirmed this. Which you later deleted my comment, and blamed me for it. This place seems beyond selective, almost too selective filled with contradictions. Shukaku in this wikia is stated to have "Magnet Release".

      "But man the problem is he was extracted" So was Kakashi's Mangekyou, so were from the other ninja who died as a result of them being captured by the Akatsuki. I don't have a problem with this broken logic. But at least have the decency of keeping it consistent. Not this intangible meatball of "let's just toss it on the wall and hope it sticks.

      Bringing up Blaze Release is a poor comparison. Amaterasu "is" a Blaze Release technique. Sasuke & Itachi utilizes black flames to incinerate oppenents or anything he sees fit, which I believe the 3rd databook states; having control over it is a different technique altogether. There's NO broken logic there.

      Fact is, we all assumed Magnet Release is what Gaara used to manipulate sand. Since the databook "disproves" it, and there was no evidence in the manga even implying so, why list it here? I say list sand manipulation in his unique traits section and leave it at that. By the way, Shukaku does have it but I don't think the beast ever gave Gaara access to the beasts abilites. Hell, the only time we've seen Gaara use Wind Release was when he was half-possesed by Shukaku. Everything else is databook confirmation.

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    • New World God wrote: Yeah, Kinda the giant leap that was made to create the magnet release on the article, kinda like the jump to judgement that Amaterasu is blaze release, even though no media has confirmed this. Which you later deleted my comment, and blamed me for it. This place seems beyond selective, almost too selective filled with contradictions. Shukaku in this wikia is stated to have "Magnet Release".

      Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Yes, no "media" confirmed that, but the manga did in chapter 464 (stated by Gaara, calling both Sasuke's Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi "black flames"). I suggest you read it and not the "media." And Minamoto15 is correct, it's a poor comparison and another topic altogether. We're talking Gaara, his sand and Magnet Release here. So no "giant leap" when it was stated in the manga. And seriously, let's stop bringing up Blaze Release. The topic asks for Gaara, his sand and Magnet. I'm not going to argue about what Blaze is here. Please. :)

      And again, with Gaara, sand and Magnet, it is what it is, according to our translator, that's what Kishi said.

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    • It seems that 4th data book contradicts the manga because tell us that gaara can't do tail beast partial transformation and full tail beast transformation futhermore he cant use his bijui abilities just like in case of kushina. For me gaara's sand manipulation ability is his own ability,even the shukaku has this ability also, because gaara's abilities is a gift of his mother who always love him, and unfortune that i cant add sand manipulation as gaara's special ability.

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    • "Bringing up Blaze Release is a poor comparison. Amaterasu "is" a Blaze Release technique."

      No, its not. It was never stated to be a "Blaze Release" Jutsu. It was specifically called " Fire-Release". You can "thumb-thug' your confirmation bias all you want. No where has it ever been called "Blaze Release". Yes, it does have the "Black Flames" But from what was stated that Sasuke was the only one to use it because he was able to manipulate the Amaterasu. Also for future references I suggest that instead of tossing me a conjecture of adjectives, you actually make an argument. You're welcome.


      " Sasuke & Itachi utilizes black flames to incinerate oppenents or anything he sees fit, which I believe the 3rd databook states; having control over it is a different technique altogether"

      No, you actually just made me right. Because by your own admission that it's a "different technique". Not that I really disagree with the Amaterasu being Blaze Release. Not that the passage is actually cited from the actual datebook I have a bigger issue for it be based on the author. Not based on some appeal to emotion, via.island mentality. Because if this is a database where its honors itself in the accuracies and canon material. Than we wouldn't be having this conversation. It was never stated in ANY media (which doesn't mean anime, it doesn't mean non-canon. because it includes : Anime, Manga, Movies etc.) If that doesn't mean nothing than you guys really need to re-evaluate whether you're arguing from an empirical position or some subjective position. To which I'll just stop. Because there is not point of having a debate with those who will rather base their arguments on subjective positions. But don't place the position that you're doing this from some form of conjecture based on the actual material. That is all I have to say about the Blaze Release.

      "Fact is, we all assumed Magnet Release is what Gaara used to manipulate sand. Since the databook "disproves" it, and there was no evidence in the manga even implying so, why list it here? I say list sand manipulation in his unique traits section and leave it at "

      Actually I don't disagree with that. I don't have a problem with it at all. I actually agree with the Sand manipulation point. It's actually very agreeable.

      WindStar7125 wrote:

      New World God wrote: Yeah, Kinda the giant leap that was made to create the magnet release on the article, kinda like the jump to judgement that Amaterasu is blaze release, even though no media has confirmed this. Which you later deleted my comment, and blamed me for it. This place seems beyond selective, almost too selective filled with contradictions. Shukaku in this wikia is stated to have "Magnet Release".

      Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Yes, no "media" confirmed that, but the manga did in chapter 464 (stated by Gaara, calling both Sasuke's Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi "black flames"). I suggest you read it and not the "media." And Minamoto15 is correct, it's a poor comparison and another topic altogether. We're talking Gaara, his sand and Magnet Release here. So no "giant leap" when it was stated in the manga. And seriously, let's stop bringing up Blaze Release. The topic asks for Gaara, his sand and Magnet. I'm not going to argue about what Blaze is here. Please. :)

      And again, with Gaara, sand and Magnet, it is what it is, according to our translator, that's what Kishi said.

      "I'm not going to argue about what Blaze is here. Please. :)"

      You just did. You're welcome.

      Proof : ""Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Yes, no "media" confirmed that, but the manga did in chapter 464 (stated by Gaara, calling both Sasuke's Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi "black flames")."

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      double posting.
      11:24, December 1, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Amaterasu is Blaze Release for a really simple reason: When Sasuke was trapped in Kaguya's ice, he used Amaterasu with his left eye and Kagutsuchi with his right eye. He didn't call it Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. This was the first time he did that and it was also the first time he used Amaterasu before using Kagutsuchi. So why didn't he call it Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi this time? Because he had already released the black flames by using Amaterasu. Blaze Release - as the name suggests - is what releases the black flames and Kagutsuchi is what controls them. There was no need for a second release of the black flames in this case, since he already had them before his very eyes. Do you see where I'm coming from?

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    • My argument was pretty clear; your choice if you want to interpret it differently. Anyway, tau pretty much reiterated my point with better wording so that's that. Topic's been beaten to death anyway, though I'm glad we agree on Gaara.

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    • Tau, not anywhere in the databook connected Gaara and Magnet Release? Not even a minor reference? It would quell some of the controversy this topic brings... not one reference?

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    • Not one, yes.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Tau, not anywhere in the databook connected Gaara and Magnet Release? Not even a minor reference? It would quell some of the controversy this topic brings... not one reference?

      Where did I state that Gaara had Magnet Release? You're assuming my position for me. I, unlike most was in the impression that people still considered the Sand, magnet release. Hence Minamoto's reference to such. I even checked it and agreed. You're assuming my false conclusion based on the premise that I disagreed. If anything I agree that the magnet release shouldn't be placed in the "Sand Jutsu". It's just that someone here got over-zealous and offended over a stint. My issue has not, nor has ever been your assumption carries. My position is this leap in judgement based on fallible assumptions.

       A good example as I listed was Amaterasu AND the how everyone assumed Magnet release was Earth + Wind (Which you tossed me a subjective conjecture - as a response) when there is nothing backing that justification that is based on the canon media we have. It should've been placed "presumed" because it is a presumption. 
      

      Hence taking a leap. You've misunderstood. This rush to judgement on your behalf is simply making my point. My opinion on the matter having to do with the sand was covered by Minamoto. Where I stated I agreed. You're welcome.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Not one, yes.

      *crosses arms* Damn it. Only if Kishi gave Rasa Earth and Lightning and been more clear we wouldn't have to go through the trouble Magnet Release brings.... *Sigh* Gaara and Magnet brings so much controversy and confusion to this wiki...

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    • It does that because some people are aiming for it. There are no real signs in the manga that Gaara has Magnet Release, then his father shows the rings and *BAMM*, suddenly there's billions of evidence for Gaara's Magnet Release. People like Reliops even begin lengthy discussions and logical argumentations to prove their point. The problem is that even if whatever they say is sound and completely logical, it doesn't mean it's true. For example, Uzumaki are known for their red hair, right? Why didn't we add Gaara as an Uzumaki yet? Because even though he has red hair, it doesn't mean that it's true that he is an Uzumaki. There are always three sides to a coin, and no one here can see all three. That's why I always say we should wait with adding stuff, but people here are so eager to add everything the second it seems "true" to them, that things get out of hand like they did with Gaara's Magnet Release. Imagine if the databook was released before all that began. No one would've ever thought of adding Magnet Release to Gaara, simply because he would've immediately been confronted with the databook. But now anything in the databook that contradicts certain beliefs is somehow wrong and instead of taking the databook as a proof that they're wrong, people use it to further prove their points.

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    • Did the Databook call Amaterasu a Blaze Release?

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    • There's no entry for Amaterasu in the current databook.

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    • Alright then. (Will he...?)

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    • I think some people hold the databook up as gospel & I don't think that's right either. Using it to debunk theories we think are true is the right way to handle it, but given the many flaws it has it's wrong to just take it's word out of the gate especially if it contradicts the manga. It's originally why I was on the other side of this conversation, because I thought Gaara having Magnet Release was media confirmed. After hearing otherwise, my view changed. Another issue is that because the Ichibi has Magnet Release, that people think it automatically allows Gaara access.

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    • (Since even sysops are talking about Blaze here) Tau, I heard from Elve that Kagutsuchi for Naruto and Sasuke's combo attack was referred to as Fire Release in the databook.

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    • Minamoto15 wrote: I think some people hold the databook up as gospel & I don't think that's right either. Using it to debunk theories we think are true is the right way to handle it, but given the many flaws it has it's wrong to just take it's word out of the gate especially if it contradicts the manga. It's originally why I was on the other side of this conversation, because I thought Gaara having Magnet Release was media confirmed. After hearing otherwise, my view changed. Another issue is that because the Ichibi has Magnet Release, that people think it automatically allows Gaara access.

      But we should at least keep it close to what we have. We shouldn't be in the business of abridging based on our views. I think we should go with your suggestion of adding "Sand manipulation" as a unique trait. Because it is a unique trait. Sorry if I seemed like I was attacking you. I think me & you had a meeting of the heads; based on a misunderstanding.

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    • And Elve got that from me, WindStar. ;P

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    • Seelentau wrote: And Elve got that from me, WindStar. ;P

      Lol. Just making sure. :P

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    • Okay.

      Can someone give me a good reason why I should not change Amaterasu back to Fire Release? It was never stated in the manga nor the databook, that conclusion was put together by observation and from what I can gather the smoking gun being the one instance where we see Sasuke do what we have already been told the whole Kagutsuchi worked.

      I ask mainly because I want consistency with Gaara and this stupid Magnet issue. I am fine with not listing sand as Magnet Release if it makes Seelentau cry into a pillow. But I'm not fine with using logical conclusions for to prove Amaterasu is Blaze, but then ignoring that same logic for Magnet.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Amaterasu is Blaze Release for a really simple reason: When Sasuke was trapped in Kaguya's ice, he used Amaterasu with his left eye and Kagutsuchi with his right eye. He didn't call it Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. This was the first time he did that and it was also the first time he used Amaterasu before using Kagutsuchi. So why didn't he call it Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi this time? Because he had already released the black flames by using Amaterasu. Blaze Release - as the name suggests - is what releases the black flames and Kagutsuchi is what controls them. There was no need for a second release of the black flames in this case, since he already had them before his very eyes. Do you see where I'm coming from?

      The difference is that in this case, we're using what the manga gave us and not real life logic.

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    • @TU3, chapter 464 confirmed Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu to be the same thing (per Kankuro's statement). It was also confirmed that Blaze Release is the release of black flames (per Gaara's statement) in the same chapter. And plus, what Tau said about Kagutsuchi and "Enton" being omitted from it in the battle vs Kaguya. The 2nd databook has Amaterasu as Fire Release. The fourth databook has Kagutsuchi as Fire Release. Manga had them as Blaze. Either Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are both Fire or Blaze.

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    • And I've already pointed out that smoking gun. Yet when we see Magnet Release surrounded by sand that doesn't count. Why?

      I've already stated before we know how Kagutsuchi worked. How does Sasuke not calling Kagutsuchi "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi" suddenly turn Amaterasu which we have a databook telling us is "Fire Release" turn to Blaze?

      Why does a non-sandy Rasengan = Magnet Release not using Sand when a few chapters later we see a sandy Rasenshuriken.

      I'm literally not seeing the difference between the two, yet you tell me there is. And I'm seeing literally no reason for Amaterasu to be Blaze Release, other than you believing so.

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    • Basically, the 2nd and 4th databooks respectively called Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi "Fire Release." And Tau can explain that for you. :P

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    • Scratch that. Because we apparently put more stock in the databook, and the databook has never called Amaterasu a "Blaze Release" then Amaterasu should be Fire and Kagutsuchi should be both.

      And that still leaves the issue of Magnet which I won't get into to spare Seelentau the grief.

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    • Hence this discussion :P

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Scratch that. Because we apparently put more stock in the databook, and the databook has never called Amaterasu a "Blaze Release" then Amaterasu should be Fire and Kagutsuchi should be both.

      And that still leaves the issue of Magnet which I won't get into to spare Seelentau the grief.

      Minamoto gave an idea to make "Sand Manipulation" a "unique trait". If we want to be 'safe' about the idea.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote:

      And I've already pointed out that smoking gun. Yet when we see Magnet Release surrounded by sand that doesn't count. Why?

      Because we've seen it not surrounded by sand in an almost similar technique.

      I've already stated before we know how Kagutsuchi worked. How does Sasuke not calling Kagutsuchi "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi" suddenly turn Amaterasu which we have a databook telling us is "Fire Release" turn to Blaze?

      Because Blaze Release is an advanced chakra nature, and the only thing that's released are the black flames.

      Why does a non-sandy Rasengan = Magnet Release not using Sand when a few chapters later we see a sandy Rasenshuriken.

      Exactly, why is there sand the second time, but not the first time?

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: And I've already pointed out that smoking gun. Yet when we see Magnet Release surrounded by sand that doesn't count. Why?

      I've already stated before we know how Kagutsuchi worked. How does Sasuke not calling Kagutsuchi "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi" suddenly turn Amaterasu which we have a databook telling us is "Fire Release" turn to Blaze?

      Why does a non-sandy Rasengan = Magnet Release not using Sand when a few chapters later we see a sandy Rasenshuriken.

      I'm literally not seeing the difference between the two, yet you tell me there is. And I'm seeing literally no reason for Amaterasu to be Blaze Release, other than you believing so.

      Unlike the Magnet Release bonanza, Amaterasu was actually confirmed Blaze Release in the manga as Windstar pointed out already. Just because the 3rd and 4th databook doesn't state it doesn't mean we should just dismiss manga facts. The databook omits a lot of things, hence why we need to stop holding it up as the primary source of information. That said, I understand where you're coming from. But as @New World God pointed out, we can't really just add things based on our own sensibilities can we? Sounds like the only thing that'll make you happy is adding Magnet back to Gaara, but keep it separate from his sand manipulation. It's the only thing that would make sense, but again....no confirmation.

      Btw @New World God, we're cool. I'm admittedly not the best at articulating, but I made sure to try to get my original point across. It looks like my suggestion got through, because someone added it to his unique traits.

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    • @Minamoto15, however, as I've said a couple times, the 2nd databook classified Amaterasu as Fire and the 4th classified Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi as Fire as well. From what I see, either both are Fire or both are Blaze. ;)

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    • The second, not the third.

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    • Seelentau wrote: The second, not the third.

      Ah, my bad. lol :P

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    • @WS7125, all that contradicts the manga entirely. Which is why I loathe the DB, though given your finishing touch at the end of your post I'll venture to guess that you're probably joshin' me. If so, ignore me haha.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: @Minamoto15, however, as I've said a couple times, the 2nd databook classified Amaterasu as Fire and the 4th classified Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi as Fire as well. From what I see, either both are Fire or both are Blaze. ;)

      Honestly, this is somewhat problematic, considering that the databook still names it "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi" in its entry (which doesn't mention anything about Fire Release), but elsewhere in the book describes it as Fire Release.

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    • Yeah, to respond to one of my statements, both Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi are Fire Release.

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    • Based on what? So we're just going to ignore the manga and now the DB means everything? Why not use both? Guess the entire wiki is gonna need an overhaul :D

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    • BTW, I've always failed to see how Amaterasu = Blaze Release. They were never exclusively equated in the manga. Amaterasu is the technique that casts the black flames (as stated in 2nd and 3rd DB, and shown several times in the manga) and the name "Blaze Release" debuted as part of the name of Sasuke's technique that controls and reshapes black flames. Unfortunately I was busy back when this argument was fresh and raging in this wikia.

      Kankourou did equate the black flames to Amaterasu in chp. 464, which is correct. Gaara mentioned the black flames but didn't associate it with either Amaterasu or Blaze Release. WindStar7125 I think you over-interpreted chp. 464.

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    • Minamoto15 wrote: Based on what? So we're just going to ignore the manga and now the DB means everything? Why not use both? Guess the entire wiki is gonna need an overhaul :D

      The thing is, Blaze Release is not an advanced nature. I just found out from Tau that Blaze being an advanced nature made up of two other natures was an assumption. It's just made up of Fire and nothing else. Blaze Release to Fire Release is like Black Lightning to Lightning. @NoJutsu, I probably did. :)

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      Minamoto15 wrote: Based on what? So we're just going to ignore the manga and now the DB means everything? Why not use both? Guess the entire wiki is gonna need an overhaul :D

      The thing is, Blaze Release is not an advanced nature. I just found out from Tau that Blaze being an advanced nature made up of two other natures was an assumption. It's just made up of Fire and nothing else. Blaze Release to Fire Release is like Black Lightning to Lightning. @NoJutsu, I probably did. :)

      That's fair I suppose. I'll take yours' and Tau's word. I guess it being manifested through the eyes was Kishi's way of making it different from ordinary flames.

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    • I just find it hilarious how a thread that was intended to be about Gaara and Magnet Release (and Kakashi) ended up being about Blaze = Fire. Guess you can blame the sysops for that. XD

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    • Wanna further that discussion? xD

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      Minamoto15 wrote: Based on what? So we're just going to ignore the manga and now the DB means everything? Why not use both? Guess the entire wiki is gonna need an overhaul :D

      The thing is, Blaze Release is not an advanced nature. I just found out from Tau that Blaze being an advanced nature made up of two other natures was an assumption. It's just made up of Fire and nothing else. Blaze Release to Fire Release is like Black Lightning to Lightning. @NoJutsu, I probably did. :)

      The problem is still that Black Lightning techniques are tagged as Lightning Release in canon, unlike black flame techniques that still get tagged as Blaze Release. Also it was stated by Kakashi that the only way to produce an advance nature that's made up of two natures is via a kekkei genkai. So since Blaze Release was not one of the five basic Releases and was also a kekkei genkai, it was very easy to argue that it is an advanced nature. Honestly, Kishi probably couldn't make up his mind on what to make of the black flames.

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    • I'm to blame. I've opened Pandora's Box. I almost want to say " Can we go back to Gaara? "

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    • NoJutsu wrote: The problem is still that Black Lightning techniques are tagged as Lightning Release in canon, unlike black flame techniques that still get tagged as Blaze Release. Also it was stated by Kakashi that the only way to produce an advance nature that's made up of two natures is via a kekkei genkai. So since Blaze Release was not one of the five basic Releases and was also a kekkei genkai, it was very easy to argue that it is an advanced nature. Honestly, Kishi probably couldn't make up his mind on what to make of the black flames.

      Maybe it was, but not now. An advanced nature is a nature made up of two or more basic nature transformations. While others like Wood and Ice were stated to have two basic natures, Blaze wasn't. It was an assumption. We assumed Blaze was advanced, but the fact of the matter is that Blaze is not made up of two natures, it is just a variant of Fire Release.

      Edit: Blaze Release techniques such as Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi were tagged as Fire Release in the databooks.

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    • The only reason it was argued to be an advanced nature in the 1st place was because it was drastically different from ordinary flames. Turns out that it's nothing more than a dojutsu and is just an enhanced fire release variant. Sounds lazy and lame, but it is what it is....

      Back on the topic of Magnetism, is it databook confirmed that Wind and Earth make up that nature?

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    • Yes.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Edit: Blaze Release techniques such as Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi were tagged as Fire Release in the databooks.

      As I mentioned earlier, the 4th databook still names it "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi" in its entry (which doesn't even mention anything about Fire Release), but elsewhere the book describes it as Fire Release; but I'm still wondering if it was the black flames that was described as Fire Release or the Kagutsuchi technique itself (because that will make a BIG difference, considering that the equivalence between Amaterasu and Blaze release was conjured by the community for the sake of convenience).

      Amaterasu's Release was introduced as Fire from day one. But then a few months later, Kishi throws us a curve ball with Blaze Release. Either he couldn't make up his mind on what to make of the black flames, or we are the ones muddling everything. Again, this depends on the precise wordings that the fourth databook used when it associated Kagutsuchi with fire. It matters because I recently ran into the issue of all genjutsu=Yin that was purported to have been confirmed by the databook, but was in reality just a wishful exaggeration of what the databook says in order to justify an old preconception.

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    • Back on the topic of Magnetism, is it databook confirmed that Wind and Earth make up that nature?

      Not precisely. Logical assumptions were made in order to reach the indisputable conclusion. The two logical assumptions are that only the five basic natures can be combined to produce advanced natures, and that Magnet Release is an advanced nature that is made up of two natures. This premise, when applied to Rasa's nature chart in the 4th databook, automatically yields an indisputable conclusion that Magnet Release is made up of Wind and Earth. Rasa has Earth, Water and Wind natures. Earth + Water gives Wood, Wind + Water gives Ice, therefore the only combo left for Magnet is Wind + Earth.

      The only way to tear down the conclusion is by poking holes in the logical assumptions, which would be very difficult because they are strongly implied in the manga: Kakashi explicitly stated that the combination of any two of the five basic natures belongs to the domain of kekkei genkai. He didn't say anything about Yin and Yang, but that doesn't mean he explicitly said that you can't combine any of the 5 natures with Yin or Yang, but his silence is then assumed to mean that you can't. So that's where the assumption that only the five basic natures can be combined to produce advanced natures comes from. As for the other assumption, every Release that is not part of the five basic ones (except maybe Blaze) are all made up of two or more natures, therefore it is concluded that Magnet Release must follow the trend.

      I hope I helped.

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    • It is no logical assumption that only the five basic natures can make up advanced natures. The chapter with Kakashi's explanation makes it very clear that Yin and Yang are not part of the five elemental natures and if I remember correctly, he even says that combining two of the basic natures to create a new nature is what is called a Kekkei Genkai. The part about Yin and Yang is only touched upon at the end of the explanation and even then, they postponed explaining those two. And last but not least, since Yin and Yang are no elemental natures, they simply can't be used to create advanced natures.

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    • Hm. @Nojustu and @Tau. So essentially, "Inferno Style" is just something Sasuke made up? It's clear that the black flames of Amaterasu aren't an "advanced nature", but it's clearly different from Fire Release; it's an enhanced version as you guys said, hence Blaze Release. The manga and anime clearly portray it as such, so to just pass it off as a glorified Fire Style just because the DB says it's so, despite the its flaws, to me isn't quite right. There must be a way to at least keep it the way it was, but curb the way we phrase it's properties and usage. Besides, it's not like this applies to everyone, there's only two shinobi in the NV who can use it. Maybe we could say in the article something like, "Blaze Release is not one of the 5 basic elemental natures, it's an enhanced form of Fire Release that doesn't require another element next to it for it manifests through the users' Sharingan, therefore should not be confused with a KKG"; or something to that effect.

      & maybe next to the icon, put in parenthesis, (dojustu), so it doesn't get confused for an advanced nature type.

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    • It's just like black lightning.

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    • I'll fold and take your word. Just be careful with the databooks. It isn't in the wiki's best interest to let it override the manga. Been a pleasure chatting with you folks though. Have a good night....

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    • Seelentau wrote: It is no logical assumption that only the five basic natures can make up advanced natures. The chapter with Kakashi's explanation makes it very clear that Yin and Yang are not part of the five elemental natures and if I remember correctly, he even says that combining two of the basic natures to create a new nature is what is called a Kekkei Genkai. The part about Yin and Yang is only touched upon at the end of the explanation and even then, they postponed explaining those two. And last but not least, since Yin and Yang are no elemental natures, they simply can't be used to create advanced natures.

      I think you read my post in haste. Reread the relevant part:

      Kakashi explicitly stated that the combination of any two of the five basic natures belongs to the domain of kekkei genkai. He didn't say anything about Yin and Yang, but that doesn't mean he explicitly said that you can't combine any of the 5 natures with Yin or Yang, but his silence is then assumed to mean that you can't.

      Is any part of this incorrect?

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    • Yes. He doesn't need to state that you can't combine the five natures with Yin or Yang, because that is not how advanced natures are created. You probably could apply seishitsuhenka to Yin-Chakra, but you can not combine Inton and Katon, for example, because Yin and Yang are no elemental natures.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Yes. He doesn't need to state that you can't combine the five natures with Yin or Yang, because that is not how advanced natures are created. You probably could apply seishitsuhenka to Yin-Chakra, but you can not combine Inton and Katon, for example, because Yin and Yang are no elemental natures.

      Then who/what states it? Some specificity, rationale and clarify!

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    • Kakashi explained it, as I said before.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Kakashi explained it, as I said before.

      Chp. 315-316, right? Kakashi never ever said that it is impossible to combine any of the five basic natures with Yin or Yang. All he talked about was simply the five natures. All we have is silence on how Yin or Yang interact with the other five natures. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; this is a fundamental concept in every field of study that involves deducing of logical conclusions, so don't ignore it here. Do you have any specific pages, or can you quote any specific statements that lend clear credit to your proposal?

      BTW, keep in my I don't disagree with Magnet Release = Wind + Earth.

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    • "pretends Yin-Yang release doesn't exist"
      
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    • Yin and Yang are no elemental natures, that's why they can't be combined with elemental natures.

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    • it seems my goal is finished because someone edits gaara's profile and they add sand manipulation as its unique traits

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    • Seelentau wrote: Yin and Yang are no elemental natures, that's why they can't be combined with elemental natures.

      Where was that ever stated or shown? Kakashi certainly never ever said it, so where?

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    • BTW, I'm referring to the later part of your statement.

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    • It wasn't stated or shown, but it's no logical assumption, either. Yin and Yang chakra is chakra made entirely of one of those two energies. They're no elemental natures you apply to chakra, they're characteristics of chakra. For example, if you mix water and dirt in real life, you get mud, right? But you can't mix water with the dirt's taste. No idea if that example helps, but I can't really explain it in any other way. I can't imagine anyone thinking in a different way than I do.^^'

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    • Seelentau wrote: It wasn't stated or shown, but it's no logical assumption, either. Yin and Yang chakra is chakra made entirely of one of those two energies. They're no elemental natures you apply to chakra, they're characteristics of chakra. For example, if you mix water and dirt in real life, you get mud, right? But you can't mix water with the dirt's taste. No idea if that example helps, but I can't really explain it in any other way. I can't imagine anyone thinking in a different way than I do.^^'

      And where does it say or show that these characteristics of chakra, as you call them, cannot be combined with elemental releases? (Unless you are now suggesting that all the five basic releases already contain Yin or Yang Releases as well). Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that canon confirmed that Yin and Yang can be combined with the five basic releases.

      When you have to connect a bunch of dots that were not consolidated by the author in order to make a claim, are unable to find any material in canon that dictates the claim or unable to build a rational on such material, are having difficulty or simply unable to express a coherent logic behind the claim, then you have yourself all the features of a wonderful conjecture. Not a speculation, but a conjecture.

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    • i think they can combine at all a good example is truth -seeking ball

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    • Do you understand how chakra is made and what Yin Release and Yang Release are, NoJutsu? If you would understand that, you would probably understand what I want to explain to you. Seishitsuhenka is applied to already existing chakra, while Yin Release and Yang Release is basically normal chakra, just made up of either spiritual or physical energy. If you create chakra purely made of spiritual energy, the result is Yin chakra, which is released through Yin Release. It is still normal chakra without any kind of elemental nature, hence why it can't be used to create a new nature. If you can apply seishitsuhenka to that Yin chakra or not, is another story.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Do you understand how chakra is made and what Yin Release and Yang Release are, NoJutsu? If you would understand that, you would probably understand what I want to explain to you. Seishitsuhenka is applied to already existing chakra, while Yin Release and Yang Release is basically normal chakra, just made up of either spiritual or physical energy. If you create chakra purely made of spiritual energy, the result is Yin chakra, which is released through Yin Release. It is still normal chakra without any kind of elemental nature, hence why it can't be used to create a new nature. If you can apply seishitsuhenka to that Yin chakra or not, is another story.

      I understand it. I was the one that updated the lead for the Yin-Yang Release article with the new info from the databook. And there is also a reason, besides the problems with genjutsu=Yin, why I still have "conjecture" tagged unto the omission of Yin for Hashirama and Nagato in the other thread. Yin and Yang Release is just as you explained them. And according to the nature chart and it's description in the opening pages of the databook, Yin and Yang are also chakra natures, and the self-evident meaning would be that Yin nature aligns with the ability to release only Yin (spiritual energy), and the same goes for Yang.

      But my simple question still holds: Where does it say or show that Yin Release cannot be combined with elemental releases?

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    • They are chakra natures, but they aren't elemental natures. They're not part of the elemental chart Yamato explained to Naruto and they work entirely different, because they're created during the process of creating chakra, not afterwards.

      Yin chakra is normal chakra made of only spiritual energy. Combining it with elemental chakra would not create a new nature, because to create a new nature, one needs elemental chakra, as explained by Kakashi. I really don't see your problem here, sorry.

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    • Seelentau wrote: They are chakra natures, but they aren't elemental natures. They're not part of the elemental chart Yamato explained to Naruto and they work entirely different, because they're created during the process of creating chakra, not afterwards.

      Yes, I know all that, and I agree.

      Yin chakra is normal chakra made of only spiritual energy. Combining it with elemental chakra would not create a new nature, because to create a new nature, one needs elemental chakra, as explained by Kakashi. I really don't see your problem here, sorry.

      This is not true, as in Kakashi did not say that. (The best that you can argue is that he somewhat implied it). Kakashi simply stated that the combination of any two of the five basic natures belongs to the domain of kekkei genkai. Simple and short. None of the three different translations that I've seen (including Viz) says anything significantly different. I've repeated this several times already and I've continuously asked you for evidence that Kakashi ever said the things you're claiming.

      Seel, go back and read the chapters, and HONESTLY ask yourself the same question that I've been asking you.

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    • I never meant Kakashi's words about what a Kekkei Genkai is. A page earlier he explains that an advanced nature is created by controlling two elements simultaneously, using Yamato's Mokuton as an example: "He uses it together. By controling the nature of 'earth' and 'water' at the same time, he creates a new 'wood' element which he can then manipulate.". Yin and Yang are no elements and that is why they can't be used to create a new nature.

      I've worked on this topic for a really long time, I've translated those words myself multiple times and I really know what I'm talking about here. If you still can't see it, I can't help you.

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    • Seelentau wrote: I never meant Kakashi's words about what a Kekkei Genkai is. A page earlier he explains that an advanced nature is created by controlling two elements simultaneously, using Yamato's Mokuton as an example: "He uses it together. By controling the nature of 'earth' and 'water' at the same time, he creates a new 'wood' element which he can then manipulate.".

      Everything you just said is spot-on except for the bolded. Kakashi never ever made such a general summary of advanced natures in chp. 315-316. You can argue that he somewhat implied it with the Wood Release example,but arguing otherwise would mean that all three different translations that I have access to omitted stuff.

      Yin and Yang are no elements and that is why they can't be used to create a new nature.

      This. This is always the piece of detail that you've simply been unable to back up with any piece of material from canon in like the past 7 posts that I've been asking you to show something. Well, to be fair, you already declared that it was never shown or stated. Or have you found any proof or rationale grounded in canon?

      I've worked on this topic for a really long time, I've translated those words myself multiple times and I really know what I'm talking about here. If you still can't see it, I can't help you.

      Yes, you have worked on this topic for a long time, and you have also formed you own preconceptions, one of which you have unfortunately failed to buttress with anything from the manga or databook. I really want to believe you, but every time you come back with another piece of logic that isn't backed up, you just make it harder.

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    • I always thought Gaara had magnet release ever since Muu said that Gaara had the same chakra as the Fourth Kazekage. Everyone assumed he was talking about father and son sharing the same chakra but Temari was also right behind him so why not mention 2 people had the same chakra as the fourth? That lead me to believe he was talking about them both having Magnet Chakra Nature. But the 4th databook proves all that to be wrong...

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    • NoJutsu, the whole chapter serves the purpose to explain to the reader how advanced natures are created. Kakashi didn't imply anything, he outright stated it by using two examples. Advanced natures are made of two basic natures, Yin and Yang are no basic natures, hence they play no role in the creation of a new nature. It's like mixing earth chakra with normal chakra. Maybe it would change the earth chakra, depending on the amount of Yin and Yang in the normal chakra, but it wouldn't create a new nature. If you still fail to understand this, it's your problem. But in the end, this doesn't come down to your opinion anyway.

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    • I don't agree with your explanation of Yin and Yang Seel. Yin Release can't use chakra made purely of mental energy and Yang Release can't use chakra made purely of physical energy, that's because, chakra by definition is both mental and physical energies merged together.

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    • Yes, I know. I was just tired of always making clear that it's not 100% one energy, but rather 80/20 or so. x)

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    • But if that were the case, all characters would be both Yin and Yang Release users. Don't tell me not anyone can mold chakra to be 20% mental 80% physical thus Yang or 80% mental and 20% physical thus Yin for example. We were very early in the series told that different techniques use different ratios of physical and spiritual energies. So if your explanation were true, then all non-elemental chakra transforming techniques used by a character who is given Yin Release by Jin no Sho, but no Yang, would have to be all Yin Release.

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    • Yes, I'm aware of that problem. But I have no answer, sorry.

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    • @Seel, my opinion was never that Yin or Yang can makeup advanced natures (as I've stated several times already). But the fact remains that nothing in chp 316 dictates that Yin or Yang Nature cannot be combined with other basic natures. While my opinion is aligned with yours because I also think only basic natures can make advanced natures, I can't can't go around telling others conjured fables that they will never ever see when they go back to the manga.

      You are just forcing Kakashi's statements in chapter 316 into what they never ever explicate, and it's not like you're even disagreeing with the popular translations, but it's just you seeing stuff that are not even there. I'll post the three pages (JapFlap scans) that we've been discussing, and anyone can prove that the only thing Kakashi says is simply that the combination of any two of the five basic natures belongs to the domain of kekkei genkai. Simple and short, and nothing about the impossibility or possibility to combine Yin or Yang with the basic natures; all we have is silence.

      Chp 316, page 6: http://s25.postimg.org/fw0vw5j7j/ch316_UK_Page_06.png

      Chp 316, page 7: http://s25.postimg.org/rz67jpu9r/ch316_UK_Page_07.png

      Chp 316, page 8: http://s25.postimg.org/uhwhy55dr/ch316_UK_Page_08.png

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    • I don't know if I should post it here or anywhere else, but It seems that people still think that Yin and Yang Release can be used to create advanced natures. That is SO NOT TRUE, and the biggest reason is - Yin and Yang Release aren't even Nature Tranformations!! As we know, they are separate from the 5 Nature Transformations and the ADVANCED NATURE TRANSFORMATIONS are as the name suggests made off of 2+ nature transformations... I'm pretty sure a lot of people know this already, just decided to point it out for those who do not know.

      For more information, we have an entire page dedicated to Nature Transformations, read there for more info if you're not sure...

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    • Omojuze wrote: I don't know if I should post it here or anywhere else, but It seems that people still think that Yin and Yang Release can be used to create advanced natures. That is SO NOT TRUE, and the biggest reason is - Yin and Yang Release aren't even Nature Tranformations!! As we know, they are separate from the 5 Nature Transformations and the ADVANCED NATURE TRANSFORMATIONS are as the name suggests made off of 2+ nature transformations... I'm pretty sure a lot of people know this already, just decided to point it out for those who do not know.

      For more information, we have an entire page dedicated to Nature Transformations, read there for more info if you're not sure...

      Sorry to break it to you, but the 4th databook absolutely confirms that Yin and Yang are chakra natures. And according to the 3rd databook, applying a nature to chakra is nature transformation. Do the math.

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    • So if we go by what was said in that chapter, and only what was said there, then the only natures that are made up by combining two basic natures are wood and ice. Because no other advanced nature was mentioned by Kakashi in that chapter, right?
      I only care about the first of those pages, by the way. The other stuff doesn't matter. "By controling the nature of "X" and "Y" at the same time, he creates a new "XY" element which he can then manipulate." is the framework for how advanced natures are created, you can apply any two basic natures to it. But Yin and Yang aren't part of these five basic natures. They weren't in Yamato's explanation and when Naruto asked about them (indirectly), Yamato even said to postpone that explanation. It's more than obvious, man. This isn't some scientific research with the safety of the world on the line or so, so don't make this so hard for yourself, man. Because as I said, in the end, it's not up to you to decide, this is still a community thing.

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    • Seelentau wrote: So if we go by what was said in that chapter, and only what was said there, then the only natures that are made up by combining two basic natures are wood and ice. Because no other advanced nature was mentioned by Kakashi in that chapter, right?

      Nice try but no, because Kakashi also made a general statement about combining any of the five basic natures.

      I only care about the first of those pages, by the way. The other stuff doesn't matter. "By controling the nature of "X" and "Y" at the same time, he creates a new "XY" element which he can then manipulate." is the framework for how advanced natures are created, you can apply any two basic natures to it. But Yin and Yang aren't part of these five basic natures. They weren't in Yamato's explanation and when Naruto asked about them (indirectly), Yamato even said to postpone that explanation. It's more than obvious, man. This isn't some scientific research with the safety of the world on the line or so, so don't make this so hard for yourself, man. Because as I said, in the end, it's not up to you to decide, this is still a community thing.

      Silence is not evidence of absence. Kakashi and Yamato simply did not talk about the impossibility or possibility of combining Yin or Yang with the basic natures. There is no need to forcefully expand their statements. BTW, I'm certainly not trying to decide anything; although, the "community" believing in something doesn't automatically make their belief true, and you know about that more than I do. Besides, why did you even start bringing this up? Are you worried that your claims are proving untenable? (Because the last time I saw someone play that card in this forum was when it became clear to them that their claims were no longer tenable).

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    • It has nothing to do with any claims I'm making. Yin and Yang are no elemental chakra natures, even if they were combined with elemental chakra, there would be no new elemental nature. Kakashi explained it and Yin and Yang simply do not fit into that explanation. That's logic in its purest form.

      Oh and yes, in fictional works, silence is evidence of absence. Simply because there's nothing going on behind the scenes, the manga is only what we're presented. The characters don't talk when we aren't looking or anything.

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    • Seelentau wrote: It has nothing to do with any claims I'm making. Yin and Yang are no elemental chakra natures, even if they were combined with elemental chakra, there would be no new elemental nature. Kakashi explained it and Yin and Yang simply do not fit into that explanation. That's logic in its purest form.

      This, again, is the part you're making up from nowhere. The only thing that lends credit to it is Kakashi's silence.

      Oh and yes, in fictional works, silence is evidence of absence. Simply because there's nothing going on behind the scenes, the manga is only what we're presented. The characters don't talk when we aren't looking or anything.

      This whole statement is really really bad logic, especially the bolded O~O, and it's way too easy to tear apart... but meeh. Anyways, you finally admitted that the only "evidence" for you claim (i.e. the impossibility of combining Yin or Yang with the basic natures) is Kakashi's silence on the matter. Well, it's not like you even needed to admit it since it was conspicuously evident.

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    • Then how do they fit into the explanation? They are not elemental chakra, they don't work like natural chakra and they can be combined without a Kekkei Genkai. Yin Release and Yang Release are by no means elemental chakra natures and Kakashi only talked about those. The very fact that they postponed the explanation of Yin and Yang is evidence enough, man. If they would fit into that explanation, there would've been seven natures in Yamato's diagram, not five.

      It's not bad logic, it's the truth. A fictional work only exists in the form it was given to us. There's nothing happening while we're not reading it as long as it wasn't told to us. And since the manga is over, there will probably never be any more revelations about most things. The "evidence of absence" argument works in real world with real people, but not in fictional work.

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    • NoJutsu wrote:

      impossibility or possibility of combining Yin or Yang with the basic natures.

      Sage Art: Yin Release Lightning Dispatch
      Lightning Release: Lightning Illusion Flash of Lightning Pillar
      Water Release Genjutsu: Demonic Phantom Fog Prison (Anime only)

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    • Seelentau wrote: Then how do they fit into the explanation?

      You're still missing the objective of this whole winding discussion, although I've stated it several times already.

      They are not elemental chakra, they don't work like natural chakra and they can be combined without a Kekkei Genkai. Yin Release and Yang Release are by no means elemental chakra natures and Kakashi only talked about those. The very fact that they postponed the explanation of Yin and Yang is evidence enough, man. If they would fit into that explanation, there would've been seven natures in Yamato's diagram, not five.

      So essentially, Kakashi's silence is the the primary evidence that proves it is impossible to combine Yin or Yang nature with any of the five basic natures, right?

      It's not bad logic, it's the truth. A fictional work only exists in the form it was given to us. There's nothing happening while we're not reading it as long as it wasn't told to us. And since the manga is over, there will probably never be any more revelations about most things. The "evidence of absence" argument works in real world with real people, but not in fictional work.

      So you're saying that if the manga was silent about something, then it never existed in the manga?

      This is so absurdly illogical. But I'll play along.
      Sage Art: Goemon :D
      Explosive Clay :O

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    • And I've stated several times why it isn't possible to create a new advanced elemental nature by combining an elemental nature release and either Yin chakra or Yang chakra.

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    • Seelentau wrote: And I've stated several times why it isn't possible to create a new advanced elemental nature by combining an elemental nature release and either Yin chakra or Yang chakra.

      Oh Seel... just answer the simple questions :D

      So essentially, Kakashi's silence is the the primary evidence that proves it is impossible to combine Yin or Yang nature with any of the five basic natures, right?

      You're saying that if the manga was silent about something, then it never existed in the manga, right?

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    • No and no.

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    • @NoJutsu. Yin & Yang aren't elemental natures to begin with, so they can't combine with Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water to form a new nature. You can combine them to form a more powerful variant of a technique like the raikiri I suppose, but that's about the most you can do as far as manga facts go. I think that's all Seel is trying to say. Why is Kakashi's silence even relevant? Wasn't he trying to teach Naruto something important?

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    • Minamoto15 wrote: @NoJutsu. Yin & Yang aren't elemental natures to begin with, so they can't combine with Fire, Wind, Lighting, Earth, and Water to form a new nature. You can combine them to form a more powerful variant of a technique like the raikiri I suppose, but that's about the most you can do as far as manga facts go. I think that's all Seel is trying to say. Why is Kakashi's silence even relevant? Wasn't he trying to teach Naruto something important?

      Just read from the beginning, else you'll just confuse yourself, or just don't read at all. I'm aware of everything you just stated, and I believe it, but if I ask you to prove the bolded portion of your post with evidence from the manga, it will be impossible. Or you can try. Seel already tried and couldn't find anything, and he eventually had to settle for Kakashi's silence on the matter to be the main evidence that proves it.



      Seelentau wrote: No and no.

      Now, you're just contradicting yourself, and I wonder why. BTW, you already answered these questions that I'm asking, and I already told you that a few posts ago. I'm just repeating these questions so that you can retype the answers all in one post again for me. But I guess I'll just do it for you, verbatim.


      I asked:
      You're saying that if the manga was silent about something, then it never existed in the manga, right?


      You already answered:
      Silence is evidence of absence... there's nothing going on behind the scenes, the manga is only what we're presented...
      And since the manga is over, there will probably never be any more revelations about most things.


      I asked:
      So essentially, Kakashi's silence is the the primary evidence that proves it is impossible to combine Yin or Yang nature with any of the five basic natures, right?


      You already answered:
      Yin Release and Yang Release are by no means elemental chakra natures, and Kakashi only talked about those. The very fact that they postponed the explanation of Yin and Yang is evidence enough...
      It isn't possible to create a new advanced elemental nature by combining an elemental nature release and either Yin chakra or Yang chakra.


      Back to what I said at the very beginning of our chitchat, the only way to conclude that Yin or Yang Natures cannot be combined with any of the five basic natures to produce an advanced nature is by assuming that Kakashi's silence on the matter is an evidence that proves the conclusion, which defies a core principle of classical logic. We have ourselves a logical assumption. Hey Seel, don't take this chitchat too seriously man and just enjoy the flow. BTW, I think you'll agree that there is not much left to discuss here.

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    • I can repeat my argumentation step by step and you can tell me where I'm wrong, okay?

      1. An advanced elemental chakra nature is always made up by two basic elemental chakra natures through the use of Kekkei Genkai, as explained by Kakashi.
      2. Yin Release and Yang Release are no elemental chakra natures since they are created during the creation of chakra, not afterwards, as explained by the fourth databook.
      3. Since they are no elemental chakra natures, they can't be used to create a new advanced elemental chakra nature, as concluded from the above.

      So where am I wrong?

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    • this thread is all about gaara(all related on him) so let's focus only in disscussion on him.

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    • Yeah... tried that. Didn't work. :P

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    • Seelentau wrote: I can repeat my argumentation step by step and you can tell me where I'm wrong, okay?

      1. An advanced elemental chakra nature is always made up by two basic elemental chakra natures through the use of Kekkei Genkai, as explained by Kakashi.
      2. Yin Release and Yang Release are no elemental chakra natures since they are created during the creation of chakra, not afterwards, as explained by the fourth databook.
      3. Since they are no elemental chakra natures, they can't be used to create a new advanced elemental chakra nature, as concluded from the above.

      So where am I wrong?

      You're wrong with the bolded. It's not in the manga. All Kakashi talked about was simply the five basic natures. He simply stated that the combination of any two of the five basic natures belongs to the domain of kekkei genkai. Simple and short, no more, no less, nothing about whether Yin or Yang can be, or cannot be, combined with any of the other five.

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    • And you're aware that he didn't mention them because it would've confused Naruto? Yamato even said to postpone those two natures' explanation. Also, an advanced chakra nature is always made up by two basic elemental chakra natures, if used through a Kekkei Genkai. Or can you name one that isn't?

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    • Seelentau wrote: And you're aware that he didn't mention them because it would've confused Naruto? Yamato even said to postpone those two natures' explanation. Also, an advanced chakra nature is always made up by two basic elemental chakra natures, if used through a Kekkei Genkai. Or can you name one that isn't?

      I'm aware of all this. And indeed, all confirmed (as in really confirmed) advanced natures that are kekkei genkai are all made up of two basic elemental chakra natures. And that (among other reasons) is why I stand with you in the opinion that advanced natures can only be made from two basic elemental natures. I truly believe it. But despite that, the fact remains that there is no direct proof for it in the manga (or at least in chapter 315-316), as this winding discussion has thoroughly demonstrated. It's just a highly logical conjecture that can be argued to be true on the basis of the manga's overwhelming silence on the issue.

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    • Back on topic please, else this thread will have to be closed.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Back on topic please, else this thread will have to be closed.

      This winding argument is actually related to Magnet Release and all advanced releases, but you'll have to backtrack to the post where it all started to see how. Anyways, the argument has ended... on a good note.

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    • A FANDOM user
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