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  • many times i have seen others on this wiki that hiruzin was the greatest hokage leaf ever had.. some go as far as to say that he was even stronger than first hokage hashirama... mty apologies, but i think this statement is stretched a bit too far... best techniques we have ever seen of hiruzin are to use 5 chakra natures simultaneously, summoning and reaper death seal (that even was not his own technique)... an the other hand hashirama has wood release, sage jutsu, sealing tchniques and could summon buddha, wood dragon etc against those techniques, even madara didnt stood a chance.... hiruzin didnt even seem to be a match for madara and tobirama, he simply overratted and overhyped... he's simply not in the league of the likes of hashirama and madara.... also he could not prevent uchiha incident, could not stop 9 tails rampage and manato's death, could not stop orochimaru either and had no control over danzo either, who was the root cause of yahiko's death and many others... so to me he is not a great hokage either....

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    • No,he's not overrated, because no one cares about him.

      Except for me

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    • He isn't overrated. He was 69 when he died.. he was an old ass man. He did not do what Danzo did and stole Hashi DNA, and Sharingans(even with those Danzo did NOT want to fuck with Hiruzen). He did not have a kekkei genkei or a giant summoning. Yet it was said he never lost a single battle. He was the strongest of the 5 kage, that includes the 4th kazekage, 4th raikage, 5th mizukage, and Onoki. Hiruzen was labeled God of Shinobi because Orochimaru says that if he was even 59 when they fought, Orochimaru would have lost no doubt. Hiruzen is a true God of Shinobi because he became number 1 without having or stealing a kekkei genkei, giant summonings, senjutsu, or a tailed beast. You all forget he was one person Akatsuki and Danzo never wanted to fuck with. I just wish Kishimoto would of shown us Hiruzen in his prime so everyone could shut up.

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    • Like ItachiWasAHero said, Hiruzen's abilities were never fully shown. I honestly think he's underrated. Shikamaru said the ENTIRE Shinobi Alliance was done for if Hiruzen fell against Guruguru, and I believe him.

      If anything, Danzo did have a valid point: Hiruzen was too much of an idealist, especially when it came to Orochimaru and the Uchiha. Hiruzen said he knew about everything Danzo did, but let him do his thing because, like Danzo told him to his face, he didn't have enough darkness in his heart to place the village above ethics and morals.

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    • If konoha says he was the strongest hokage ever, than obviously he was stronger than hashirama in his youth. It should mean something when orochimaru actually admits someone is stronger than him. God forbid if he actually had a KG. Hiruzen really had no special abilities, yet at 69 he was considered the strongest kage. so if anything he really is underrated

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    • Poopysauce wrote: If konoha says he was the strongest hokage ever, than obviously he was stronger than hashirama in his youth. It should mean something when orochimaru actually admits someone is stronger than him. God forbid if he actually had a KG. Hiruzen really had no special abilities, yet at 69 he was considered the strongest kage. so if anything he really is underrated

      are we supposed to take you seriously with that user name?

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    • I don't think Hiruzen, in his prime, was as strong as Hashirama or Tobirama, but I don't think he was overrated at all. He was still a really strong ninja.

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    • in his prime and when he was 69 he was strong either way.

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    • I can't determine is Hiruzen was overrated or not without seeing his abilities when he was in his prime. Based on what we have seen (which is him as an old mad, roughly 20 years past his prime) He has not shown anything to justify him being better than Hashirama in his prime. I wish that Orochimaru could have brought back Hiruzen in his prime (similar to Kabuto and Madara).

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    • Munchvtec wrote:

      Poopysauce wrote: If konoha says he was the strongest hokage ever, than obviously he was stronger than hashirama in his youth. It should mean something when orochimaru actually admits someone is stronger than him. God forbid if he actually had a KG. Hiruzen really had no special abilities, yet at 69 he was considered the strongest kage. so if anything he really is underrated

      are we supposed to take you seriously with that user name?

      lol. it really doesnt matter what my name is as long as what im saying holds truth

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    • Lord 7th Hokage
      Lord 7th Hokage removed this reply because:
      Mistake
      15:00, September 23, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Lord 7th Hokage
      Lord 7th Hokage removed this reply because:
      Made another mistake. Sorry
      15:00, September 23, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Spyrocks wrote: No,he's not overrated, because no one cares about him.

      Except for me

      I tip my hat to you gentlemen and or ladies

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      passive trolling another user.
      13:36, September 25, 2014
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    • Its as Jiraiya said to Orochimaru in part 1 (search for Tsunade) that a ninja is never considered strong based on the number of jutsu's he/she possesses.

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    • Balu25int wrote: Its as Jiraiya said to Orochimaru in part 1 (search for Tsunade) that a ninja is never considered strong based on the number of jutsu's he/she possesses.

      yeah jiraiya said that. although i agree with you id like to ask you if you remember what jiraiya said those three special "things" are? if you know what he said there then you know he doesn't know what he's talking about.

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    • Balu25int wrote: Its as Jiraiya said to Orochimaru in part 1 (search for Tsunade) that a ninja is never considered strong based on the number of jutsu's he/she possesses.

      That doesn't have anything to do with discussion, no one ever said or implied Hiruzen was strong because he knew a lot of jutsu. It's actually the reverse.

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    • Marc Zaddy wrote:

      Balu25int wrote: Its as Jiraiya said to Orochimaru in part 1 (search for Tsunade) that a ninja is never considered strong based on the number of jutsu's he/she possesses.

      That doesn't have anything to do with discussion, no one ever said or implied Hiruzen was strong because he knew a lot of jutsu. It's actually the reverse.

      true but anyways no he was not overrated though it's just a matter of opinion and that's all it is.

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    • Like my post said Hiruzen was said to be the strongest Hokage ever in his prime. Kishimoto would not have allowed that in his manga or databooks if it was not true. Let's use some dbz logic(sadly..).. Even if it was just a power level difference of 998 for Hashirama and 999 for Hiruzen in his prime it would still make him stronger. Kishimoto decides who is the strongest and he made that person the third God of Shinobi.. Prime Hiruzen. Our opinions don't overshadow Kishi's facts enough said. He was also trained by Hashirama and Tobirama to be as strong as possible.. they were both grooming him since he was 8yrs old to be Hokage. I severely doubt he was weaker than Hashirama, and at the very, very least he was the same strength as Hashirama.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Like my post said Hiruzen was said to be the strongest Hokage ever in his prime. Kishimoto would not have allowed that in his manga or databooks if it was not true. lets use some dbz logic(sadly..) real fast. Even if it was just a power level difference of 998 for Hashirama and 999 for Hiruzen in his prime he it would still make him stronger. Kishimoto decides who is the strongest and he made that person the third God of Shinobi.. Prime Hiruzen. Our opinions don't overshadow Kishi's facts enough said.

      kishi has been wrong in the data books before and sometimes even on purpose like when he listed tobi and obito as separate characters even though he stated them to be the same.

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    • He has never been wrong. You misunderstand what purposely changing info means. For example, why would he reveal Tobi as Obito in DB3 even though DB3 only goes up to the moment Sasuke awakens his Mangekyo?? Also Kishi says the same thing about Hiruzen in all 3 Databooks. He has consistently stuck to what he says about Hiruzen. Unless he states in DB4 that Hashirama was the most powerful Hokage instead.. then nothing has changed and it still remains the same.

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    • he didnt need to say that tobi was obito but he could have just made one profile called Madara Uchiha. please watch your tone towards me, i and kind to you and support you so why be rude.

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    • How am I being rude to you?? Explain that to me, and no he didn't need to. He was hinting that Madara and Tobi were different people. He has always dropped small subtle hints in each Databook. Everything else I said remains the same.

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    • Kishimoto hasn't been wrong before (how can you be wrong about your series?), he's changed his mind about certain topics. Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage is clearly one of those topics, as is obvious.

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    • Lol, he was never SHOWN in his prime. So how can that be changed?? Use your brain more guys seriously..

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    • I really haven't seen anything to suggest that Hiruzen was ever stronger than Hashirama or Tobirama.

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    • Well, for one, Hiruzen himself said so.

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    • That doesn't necessarily make it true.

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    • Irogers wrote: That doesn't necessarily make it true.

      I was replying to the comment above yours.

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    • Oh sorry about that.

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    • Marc Zaddy
      Marc Zaddy removed this reply because:
      Double post.
      18:46, September 23, 2014
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    • He never once said "Hashirama is stronger than me in my prime" Give me evidence for that if he did, right now.

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    • The problem is that we have never actually seen him in his prime so all we have to go off is what little we have seen and what other characters have said about him and he has been stated to be a god just like Hashrirama was so just going off that alone then that would mean he was at least stronger then Tobirama, not saying Tobirama is bad or anything but he was never known as a god of shinobi like the 1st and 3rd where. I would say the 1st is still the strongest of all 5 Hokages, the 3rd is 2nd, then its debatable who is stronger between the 2nd and 4th because we never really saw much of Tobirama also but he did create tons of jutsus and was probably the best water style user to ever live but Minato had been known to take out hundreds of people himself, knew sage mode, although he did use the jutsu that Tobirama created I would say he was better at it just because he acted quickly and had the better reflexes and Tobirama himself said Minato was better at it then he was, and honestly I feel Minato died before hitting his prime and it felt like when Minato was brought back he kind of took a back seat so we could see how powerful Naruto was.

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    • No, he isn't overrated but there's no way in hell that he's stronger than hashirama. It's god-forsakenly obvious that kishi retconned this as he has done before, case in point the "sharingan was descended from byakugan" stuff. Iruka said that hiruzen was the strongest of the previous 4 hokage in his prime BUT kabuto has stated that hashirama was so powerful that even now his strength is believed to be a fairy tale. Meaning, people are able to comprehend hiruzen's power but not hashirama's b/c the latter's OPness is just too unbelievable. So yeah I think I'll take kabuto's word over iruka the fodder. The latter is also much more knowledgeable than iruka.

      Also recently, hashirama said the jinchuriki obito is stronger than himself. Here he uses himself as the highest standard. Hiruzen's agreement taken into context means that he agrees obito is stronger than the previously most powerful person.

      Also, I don't care what excuses you make for hashirama's strength. the fact remains that his kekkei genkai are a part of him and his "giant summonings" is something he TRAINED to acquire. He wasn't making gigantic buddhas at the age of one.

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    • 11zeeshha wrote: kabuto has stated that hashirama was so powerful that even now his strength is believed to be a fairy tale. Meaning, people are able to comprehend hiruzen's power but not hashirama's b/c the latter's OPness is just too unbelievable.

      Or, you know, simply because Hashirama has been dead for such a long time that no one remembers how strong he actually was, but people still remembers Hiruzen's prime strenght.

      I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you, I just want to point out that there are more possibilities than you seem to comprehend.


      As a personal opinion, I agree that Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara and Hiruzen are among the strongest, but I would like to see how strong Minato, Itachi and Shisui (to name but a few) would be capable of if they ever got to live as long as, say, Jiraiya or Orochimaru... maybe simply because those 3 are my favorite characters. Call me biased. :P

      Edited: A word.

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    • I think Hiruzen really was stronger than Hashirama.

      For one, Hiruzen said he was the strongest out of the team Tobirama was leading, when Tobirama was right there. And Tobirama didn't dispute it.

      Madara said that Tobirama rivalled himself when they were both alive, so Hiruzen was stronger than Madara too (only in life though).

      And come on, Hiruzen held his own with the other Hokage as a 69 year-old man. that's gotta stand for something right? Even at that old, he spearheaded the fight against Guruguru too. The guy was a beast.

      He even defeated Orochimaru (albeit dying in the process) When Orochimaru attacked Konoha; right after fighting both his predecessors! (Albeit they were weakened).

      I think he was the most powerful back in the day. Not to mention he knew every Ninjutsu known to Konoha (unless I'm mistaken). That's why they called him the Professor.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: For one, Hiruzen said he was the strongest out of the team Tobirama was leading, when Tobirama was right there. And Tobirama didn't dispute it.

      I'd forgotten about that one. That's really the best quote right there.


      Also, just thought I'd mention that you meant to say "Kage", not "other Hokage". But that's not important. You made a very good and valid point and I commend you for that. :D

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    • Blaezej wrote:

      11zeeshha wrote: kabuto has stated that hashirama was so powerful that even now his strength is believed to be a fairy tale. Meaning, people are able to comprehend hiruzen's power but not hashirama's b/c the latter's OPness is just too unbelievable.

      Or, you know, simply because Hashirama has been dead for such a long time that no one remembers how strong he actually was, but people still remembers Hiruzen's prime strenght.

      I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you, I just want to point out that there are more possibilities than you seem to comprehend.

      You're not thinking logically. Obviously for kabuto to have even be able to make that statement, there is info on how strong hashirama is. The fact remains that people don't believe that he is that strong b/c they thought that level of strength to be impossible not that they didn't remember his strength.

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    • He was a really powerful ninja, one of Konoha's strongest, but I don't think he was ever on Hashirama's level, even in his prime. Also, I don't think he's overrated at all.

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    • 11zeeshha wrote: You're not thinking logically... Obviously for kabuto to have even be able to make that statement, there is info on how strong hashirama is. The fact remains that people don't believe that he is that strong b/c they thought that level of strength to be impossible not that they didn't remember his strength.

      I'm not thinking logically? If you read history a lot (which I don't usually do, but got back to it after some interesting bits and references from ASoIaF) you'll see that people tend to forget quickly the past or make it seem bigger or smaller (the feats of past people), according to assumption, envy or simply spite or lack of knowledge.

      So yeah, the best we all can do is speculate endlessly.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      useless post...
      13:36, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • AsianReaper wrote: I think Hiruzen really was stronger than Hashirama.

      For one, Hiruzen said he was the strongest out of the team Tobirama was leading, when Tobirama was right there. And Tobirama didn't dispute it.

      So what if he was the strongest out of the team tobirama was leading? how does that make hashirama inferior to him? When has it ever been said that hashirama was a part of team tobirama? Heck when hiruzen said that hashirama wasn't even around.

      Madara said that Tobirama rivalled himself when they were both alive, so Hiruzen was stronger than Madara too (only in life though).

      when did Madara say that? I don't remember.

      And come on, Hiruzen held his own with the other Hokage as a 69 year-old man. that's gotta stand for something right? Even at that old, he spearheaded the fight against Guruguru too. The guy was a beast.

      He's an edo tensei. Of course it's going to be easier to keep up. Even then compared to tobirama and minato, hiruzen was mostly in the background until guruguru came in, which brings me to the next point. Guruguru is just a weak hashirama clone. He's nothing compared to Hashirama himself. While hiruzens jutsu was extremely impressive, I hardly think guruguru is an acceptable replacement for hashirama.

      He even defeated Orochimaru (albeit dying in the process) When Orochimaru attacked Konoha; right after fighting both his predecessors! (Albeit they were weakened).

      Exactly they were weakened and severely at that. Also he didn't defeat Orochimaru. It was a stalemate at best. Of course he was 69 but that's still not proof that he could defeat hashirama even in his prime. severely weakened hashirama and tobirama + orochimaru who practically just watched does not equal hashirama in his prime.

      I think he was the most powerful back in the day. Not to mention he knew every Ninjutsu known to Konoha (unless I'm mistaken). That's why they called him the Professor.

      So what? back in his days hashirama was the most powerful. And that's a time where there were few or no fodders. Also knowing a jutsu and being able to use it are 2 different things. One can understand the mechanics or theory w/o being able to use them. Even if you are able to use them, it doesn't mean you're any good at using them.

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    • Blaezej wrote:

      11zeeshha wrote: You're not thinking logically... Obviously for kabuto to have even be able to make that statement, there is info on how strong hashirama is. The fact remains that people don't believe that he is that strong b/c they thought that level of strength to be impossible not that they didn't remember his strength.

      I'm not thinking logically? If you read history a lot (which I don't usually do, but got back to it after some interesting bits and references from ASoIaF) you'll see that people tend to forget quickly the past or make it seem bigger or smaller (the feats of past people), according to assumption, envy or simply spite or lack of knowledge.

      So yeah, the best we all can do is speculate endlessly.

      Yes you're not thinking logically (again). How was kabuto able to make that statement without knowledge of how strong hashirama is? Why did he say that people "didn't believe"? Not remembering and not believing are 2 completely different things. In other words, they have been told about hashirama's strength but they choose not to believe it b/c they think it's impossible. Simple logic really.

      Let's face it. Kishi changed his mind and that's all there is to it.

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    • He didn't change his mind. He always had it set that Hiruzen, Hashirama and Madara were the strongest. 3 databooks in a row and in the manga for a very long time he had Hiruzen praised the same exact way.

      At the very least, Prime Hiruzen ties with Hashirama and that means something for someone without a kekkei genkei, senjutsu, or a tailed beast. and yes Tobirama did not contest Hiruzen saying he was the strongest, instead he agreed pretty much and made him Hokage. Danzo had KotoAmatsukami, Izanagi and Wood Release and yet he never even tried to mess with Hiruzen one on one no matter how badly he wanted to be Hokage instead of Hiruzen.. Orochimaru waited until Hiruzen was OLD before he even tried to mess with him.. hell Danzo could have teamed up with Hanzo to try Hiruzen.. but he didn't even do that because he knew better.

      I think it's more along the fact that a lot of YOU all underestimate Hiruzen simply because we never saw his prime ability's. Hell even the Akatsuki didn't want to eff with Hiruzen. They could have came in and took the 9 tails at any time if they thought they could, but they knew better.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      merged.
      13:37, September 25, 2014
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    • Poopysauce
      Poopysauce removed this reply because:
      i dont like it
      01:14, September 24, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Hashirama wasn't in the team, I'm saying that Hiruzen was stronger than Tobirama. Madara said that in life, Tobirama was equal to himself (Madara) in strength. Chapter 661.

      Edo Tensei shouldn't matter, they were all Edo Tensei, so the gulf in skills remained the same. And considering How much older Hiruzen was compared to the rest, that gulf wasn't too wide.

      Orochimaru was defeated. Hiruzen took his ninjutsu away. For a guy who wanted all ninjutsu for himself, Orochimaru was down for the count. And this was after fighting two Hokage.

      And I'm sure it was stated he could utilize every technique. Anyone can memorize theories, but I think the fact that he could use them all is what set Hiruzen apart.

      And before you come at me with the old Kakashi rebuttal on "why doesn't he use more ninjutsu then?" He only used techniques that suited his fighting style. Like Kakashi being able to use shadow clones, but not using it in battle because he had average chakra reserves.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      useless post.
      13:38, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Hiruzen at 69 was a 3rd tier in stamina/chakra just like Kakashi was at 30, who at that time was in a hospital bed from using kamui what.. twice? and that was considered terribly pitiful compared to his prime, his own summoning AND orochimaru commented on how much weaker he was compared to his prime self. Orochimaru admitted he had no chance if Hiruzen was just 10 years younger. This was Oro with both arms and ready for war and ready to kill... and we still were never shown Hiruzen's prime abilities so why is everyone just adding their own assumptions as facts?? when the databooks and manga give us facts, we should go by them in most cases and the fact is Prime Hiruzen was the strongest kage ever.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Hashirama wasn't in the team, I'm saying that Hiruzen was stronger than Tobirama. Madara said that in life, Tobirama was equal to himself (Madara) in strength. Chapter 661.

      I just re-read that chapter and sorry to say but nowhere does it say that madara and tobirama were equal in strength.

      Edo Tensei shouldn't matter, they were all Edo Tensei, so the gulf in skills remained the same. And considering How much older Hiruzen was compared to the rest, that gulf wasn't too wide.

      That's your opinion. Hiruzen showed nothing of note other than his counter against guruguru, a weaker version hashirama.

      Orochimaru was defeated. Hiruzen took his ninjutsu away. For a guy who wanted all ninjutsu for himself, Orochimaru was down for the count. And this was after fighting two Hokage.

      No he wasn't. The last time I checked he had the upper hand from start till finish. The fight ended in a stalemate b/c that was the only way hiruzen could stop, NOT defeat orochimaru.

      And I'm sure it was stated he could utilize every technique. Anyone can memorize theories, but I think the fact that he could use them all is what set Hiruzen apart. And before you come at me with the old Kakashi rebuttal on "why doesn't he use more ninjutsu then?" He only used techniques that suited his fighting style. Like Kakashi being able to use shadow clones, but not using it in battle because he had average chakra reserves.

      It was said he knew every jutsu in konoha. That doesn't necessarily equate to him actually being able to use all of them. However, if you believe the latter then that's fine as well. I don't really have a problem with it. I just believe it's highly unlikely. But as I said before being able to use them and actually being good at using them are 2 different things let alone being the best at them.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Hiruzen at 69 was a 3rd tier in stamina/chakra just like Kakashi was at 30, who at that time was in a hospital bed from using kamui what.. twice? and that was considered terribly pitiful compared to his prime, his own summoning AND orochimaru commented on how much weaker he was compared to his prime self. Orochimaru admitted he had no chance if Hiruzen was just 10 years younger. This was Oro with both arms and ready for war and ready to kill... and we still were never shown Hiruzen's prime abilities so why is everyone just adding their own assumptions as facts?? when the databooks and manga give us facts, we should go by them in most cases and the fact is Prime Hiruzen was the strongest kage ever.

      So what if his chakra levels were immense? so were hashirama's. So are naruto's. This proves nothing. And as I've already said above a severely weakened hashirama + tobirama and an orochimaru who did nothing but watch for most of the fight does not equate to hashirama being at his actual level.

      Also no one's adding their own assumptions. These are based off of manga FACTS. You can't pick and choose whichever one's you like. So either kishi is contradicting himself again or he changed his mind. Pick whichever one you like. I choose the latter (until kishi again reaffirms that hiruzen is stronger)

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      merged with post below to preserve kudos.
      13:38, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • he never once stated ever in manga or databook that hashirama was stronger than hiruzen, let alone prime hiruzen. now YOU are the one making things up, there are no facts saying Hashi is stronger than Hiruzen.

      Bring me the manga/databook statements that supposedly exist if they do then I will believe you, and no he is not contradicting himself because he never said in manga or databook "Hashirama was the strongest Hokage".

      and if you missed the part where Madara praises Tobirama as being his equal in life then you are either blind or reading a very bad translation.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: he never once stated ever in manga or databook that hashirama was stronger than hiruzen, let alone prime hiruzen. now YOU are the one making things up, there are no facts saying Hashi is stronger than Hiruzen. Bring me the manga/databook statements that supposedly exist if they do then I will believe you, and no he is not contradicting himself because he never said in manga or databook "Hashirama was the strongest Hokage".

      It seem as if you're one of those people who can't read between the lines and have to be spoonfed every single detail. Look through my comments. I'm not going to bother repeating them.

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    • WOW, you can't be that stupid. WHERE was it insinuated Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen? give me page numbers. and not any crappy translations

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: and if you missed the part where Madara praises Tobirama as being his equal in life then you are either blind or reading a very bad translation.


      Calling me blind now? Of course it's my translation that's bad. It couldn't possibly be yours /s Face it. he never claims tobirama is his equal. Heck he has said that no one but hashirama could match him. The only things he did say was calling tobirama the one who used to be the fastest shinobi. The second is that he says that there's a gulf between the senju brothers and himself. So does that now mean tobirama = hashirama as well? sheesh...

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: WOW, you can't be that stupid. WHERE was it insinuated Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen? give me page numbers. and not any crappy translations

      HAHAHA insulting me again? This shows the depth of your intelligence. You can't beat me with logic so you use insults. Truly pitiful. Of course unlike you I haven't memorized every single chapter and pg numbers (as if that's helped you here) so forgive me if I can't tell you where it is exactly. However I believe it was kabuto who said this.

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    • Now you're getting your own context out of this. To be more exact exact in every good translation, the lines are more or less the same with Madara telling Tobirama in life they were equals. Madara said only Hashirama could beat him, but news flash Hiruzen was a child when Madara was defeated and died. Hiruzen > Tobirama/Madara. Every manga/databook evidence point at anything about Hiruzen's strength all point to him being the strongest Hokage in his prime. There is NO facts saying or making Hashirama stronger than Prime Hiruzen, current and Edo Hiruzen? sure he is stronger than those but not prime Hiruzen. Now like I said, where are these "facts" you mentioned? I want some chapter and page numbers, from a good source.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Now you're getting your own context out of this. To be more exact exact in ever good translation, the lines are more or less the same with Madara telling Tobirama in life they were equals. Madara said only Hashirama could beat him, but news flash Hiruzen was a child when Madara was defeated and died. Hiruzen > Tobirama/Madara. Every manga/databook evidence point at anything about Hiruzen's strength all point to him being the strongest Hokage in his prime. There is NO facts saying or making Hashirama stronger than Prime Hiruzen, current and Edo Hiruzen? sure he is stronger than those but not prime Hiruzen. Now like I said, where are these "facts" you mentioned? I want some chapter and page numbers, from a good source.

      And which translations do you refer to oh mighty god of translations? I read the translations that pretty much everyone else reads on mangapanda, mangafox, etc, etc.

      All the facts point to the fact that hiruzen WAS to be the strongest but now kishi has changed his mind. Learn to read between the lines. No one should have to spoonfeed you every single detail.

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    • Wrong, Kabuto never said Hashirama was the strongest Hokage. You are truly pitiful, you come here to debate/argue.. with NO PROOF?? Go get some sleep or something, you're losing your mind.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Wrong, Kabuto never said Hashirama was the strongest Hokage. You are truly pitiful, you come here to debate/argue.. with NO PROOF?? Go get some sleep or something, you're losing your mind.

      LMFAO. go read my previous comments like I already said to you troll. If you can't use logic to defeat my arguments then don't bother commenting. Your only defense is that what iruka said is canon. well then I guess the sharingan are also descended from the byakugan as well /s. But then what kabuto said contradicts what iruka said. Unless of course it's you who doesn't bother to think further than "it's not spoonfed to me so I don't believe it"

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    • What logic?? you are taking kabuto's comments about his strength being regarded as a hard to believe fairy tale as " HAI GAIZ dis is Kishimoto, i put it on d line dat hashirama is indeed stronger than prime hiruzen ya kno wut i meenz??" dude you are PATHETIC. You can't even back up your statements or "facts" you take your assumptions and assert them as facts, all the while insulting me?? Why are you on this site if you can't debate/argue right? You can't even back yourself up on this?? wow.. this is sad.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: What logic?? you are taking kabuto's comments about his strength being regarded as a hard to believe fairy tale as " HAI GAIZ dis is Kishimoto, i put it on d line dat hashirama is indeed stronger than prime hiruzen ya kno wut i meenz??" dude you are PATHETIC. You can't even back up your statements or "facts" you take your assumptions and assert them as facts, all the while insulting me?? Why are you on this site if you can't debate/argue right? You can't even back yourself up on this?? wow.. this is sad.

      Look who's talking. You can't use logic. You can't read between the lines. You have to be spoonfed everything. You wouldn't recognize a contradiction if it hit you in the face. As for insults who started them? YOU did. Don't dish out what you can't take dear. So why are you here again? you know, other than to throw out insults and argue incessantly w/o any logic?

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    • Let's stop arguing with 11zeeshha. It's obvious he just doesn't want to accept what is honestly blatantly obvious.

      And @11zeeshha, the only reason he insulted you, I think, is because you would not accept the facts we gave you. And you never gave any ironclad evidence yourself.

      We gave 3 databooks and different chapters citing Hiruzen's prowess. I guess it's useless if you won't accept those.

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    • @AsianReaper Agreed, let's just ignore him if he comments to us again.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Let's stop arguing with 11zeeshha. It's obvious he just doesn't want to accept what is honestly blatantly obvious.

      And @11zeeshha, the only reason he insulted you, I think, is because you would not accept the facts we gave you. And you never gave any ironclad evidence yourself.

      We gave 3 databooks and different chapters citing Hiruzen's prowess. I guess it's useless if you won't accept those.

      You gave me one chapter which proved nothing and info from databook. I don't know about 3 since I don't have them and so I've taken your word for it. Meanwhile I also used canon facts and certainly better logic to disprove your claims.

      ALso, let me get this straight. Me debating in a respectable manner while using manga facts and logic to prove my case is grounds for insults? I'm done here. It's clear that arguing with irrational people isn't going to bear any fruit.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: @AsianReaper Agreed, let's just ignore him if he comments to us again.

      awww How cute!! And immature (no surprise there). You're going to give me the silent treatment :( If you wanted to end the argument then grow up and say so. It's clear that neither of us are going to budge from our views. So yeah let's end it then.

      P.S. You still haven't told me which translations you use. I'd like to know for future references.

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    • for those wondering, Seelentau, ShounenSuki and FFSuzaku have given raw translations on pretty much everything I mentioned. I trust their translations.

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    • hey guys guys.... why are you all so keen to eat others head in this conversation..... my only point to start this discussion was kishi first made a statement... hiruzin was the strongest kaage.... and then spent half of the series contradicting his own statement.. he showed us how helpless he was in front of danzo... i almost seemed like donzo WAS the hokage at many points in the series and hiruzin couldnt do anything... like uchiha incident, yahiko's death etc... i mean to say that if he was all that great., he could show us some of his fights in the prime....

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: for those wondering, Seelentau, ShounenSuki and FFSuzaku have given raw translations on pretty much everything I mentioned. I trust their translations.

      Is there a separate webpage for those or is it all here in this wiki? Would you care to point them out to me? Thanks in advance. :D

      @Minato: I believe that Hiruzen was the good man being manipulated. I mean... he could try to intervene on the Uchihas, but he didn't want to be straightforward about it, so he let Danzo act in his stead.

      More or so the same thing about everything... that's why he said he was a failure to the other Hokages as way of apology when Sasuke/Orochimaru revived them.

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    • some say here that hiruzin couldnt use his full power at the age of 69... i couldnt comprehend it that how being old makes you forget using the jutsus..... i believe that using 5 styles simultaneously was hiruzin's greatest attack as shikamaru said that using sunch justu once would drain all the chakra..., see the ohnoki, he is far older than hiruzin by now but he can use all of his jutsus like particle style, earth style etc... in short, it was completely irresponsible from kishi to say that hiruzin was the strongest when on the other hand he made hashirama, madara so powerful that one cant even say that hiruzin is even in their league after watching the fight between madara and first... its like kishi is denying his own statement., hiruzin may be the strongest in his era but man, hashirama and madara are reincarnates of indra and ashura.. how can hiruzin can even stand a chance against them....

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    • All onoki ever used was rock golem, rock clone, weight changing techniques, and dust release -_-. Onoki was kage when Hiruzen was and he was still labeled as weaker than Hiruzen.

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    • Hiruzen was probably called "God of Shinobi" and given all these titles is because he was one in few Shinobies that was to utilize all 5 nature elements naturally.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: All onoki ever used was rock golem, rock clone, weight changing techniques, and dust release -_-. Onoki was kage when Hiruzen was and he was still labeled as weaker than Hiruzen.

      i didnt say that onoki is stronger than hiruzin.... i just said that if onoki can use all of his jutsus at this age, then why not hiruzin...??

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      13:40, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Nothing to say that he couldn't use any jutsu he knew, but it's like Kakashi, we were never going to see everything they could do, Hiruzen being older would want to conserve energy as much as possible to perform what worked best against his enemy rather than throwing around random techniques.

      Hiruzen was not even close to being at his prime at any point that he appeared in the story.

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    • Considering he survived through the first 3 Shinobi World Wars unlike some of the other kages is pretty impressive.

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    • Sarutobii2 wrote: Considering he survived through the first 3 Shinobi World Wars unlike some of the other kages is pretty impressive.

      It's a bit unlikely that the Kages took part in battles.

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    • Like others have stated, I think Hiruzen may be underrated simply because we've seen him fight once and he lost. But mind you, that person he lost to was Orochimaru, who could take on Naruto's four tailed form while he was in the pains that come before he can reincarnate. Hiruzen was at least 25 - 30 years past his prime (died at 69, prime is considered to be over at 40 ish.) Lets also not forget that he was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama Senju, and had no Kekkei Genkei like Hashi and his fire style was weak to Tobirama's water style, and he still could hold them off, beat them multiple times, and then seal them both at the same time while getting rid of Orochimaru's arms (probably his entire soul if he didnt get stabbed by that sword at the end. Point is, Hiruzen is a monster.

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    • Sarutobii2 wrote: Considering he survived through the first 3 Shinobi World Wars unlike some of the other kages is pretty impressive.

      He only been in one actually in one lol And the other two he just sat in his office giving orders xD

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    • Avatar Silver wrote: Like others have stated, I think Hiruzen may be underrated simply because we've seen him fight once and he lost. But mind you, that person he lost to was Orochimaru, who could take on Naruto's four tailed form while he was in the pains that come before he can reincarnate. Hiruzen was at least 25 - 30 years past his prime (died at 69, prime is considered to be over at 40 ish.) Lets also not forget that he was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama Senju, and had no Kekkei Genkei like Hashi and his fire style was weak to Tobirama's water style, and he still could hold them off, beat them multiple times, and then seal them both at the same time while getting rid of Orochimaru's arms (probably his entire soul if he didnt get stabbed by that sword at the end. Point is, Hiruzen is a monster.

      Orochimaru was actually in a weakened state. His body was failing him and he couldve actually defeated naruto. Don't forget Hashirama & Tobirama were nowhere near their full power when they fought hiruzen. Especailly hashi he didn't have Ashura's Chakra anymore. If Hashirama was still Ashura's reincarnate and was at his prime, Hiruzen would die.

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    • So what you're saying as that both Madara and Hashirama during the 4th Ninja war were weaker than their prime because they were not the current transmigrants? Is there any actual evidence that supports this in the manga? Because if there is then I must have missed it.

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    • Haxs wrote:

      Avatar Silver wrote: Like others have stated, I think Hiruzen may be underrated simply because we've seen him fight once and he lost. But mind you, that person he lost to was Orochimaru, who could take on Naruto's four tailed form while he was in the pains that come before he can reincarnate. Hiruzen was at least 25 - 30 years past his prime (died at 69, prime is considered to be over at 40 ish.) Lets also not forget that he was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama Senju, and had no Kekkei Genkei like Hashi and his fire style was weak to Tobirama's water style, and he still could hold them off, beat them multiple times, and then seal them both at the same time while getting rid of Orochimaru's arms (probably his entire soul if he didnt get stabbed by that sword at the end. Point is, Hiruzen is a monster.

      Orochimaru was actually in a weakened state. His body was failing him and he couldve actually defeated naruto. Don't forget Hashirama & Tobirama were nowhere near their full power when they fought hiruzen. Especailly hashi he didn't have Ashura's Chakra anymore. If Hashirama was still Ashura's reincarnate and was at his prime, Hiruzen would die.

      Thats what I meant, Orochimaru was in a weakened state and Hiruzen almost completely sealed him away. Besides, what evidence is there that Hashi and Tobirama were weakened just because they were reincarnated? and Hashi is (was) still technically Ashura's reincarnate, just re reincarnated.

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    • When they were reincarnated the second time, Tobirama stated that Orochimaru's edo tensei improved cause they were near their full power. The proof is that Hashirama didnt use sage mode or his humanoid wood techs and Tobirama didn't use hiraishin? Hashirama WASN'T Ashura's incarnate anymore as it transmigrated to Naruto. He did not possess Ashura's body anymore nor his chakra.

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    • Well most of that can be just because Kishi didnt have the forethought to give Hashi sage mode or Tobi hiraishin or make Hashi Ashura's successor

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    • Let's not forget another factor in the Orochimaru fight: Hiruzen was heartbroken, in addition to the shock of having to fight his former masters. He didn't want to fight or kill Orochimaru for the majority of the fight because he was his favorite student.

      Just like Kakashi didn't wanna kill Obito when he had multiple chances to, but once he came to the conclusion that he had to it, Kakashi started kicking his ass all over Kamui's dimension. If Hiruzen had the "I don't feel bad about killing you" mentality from the jump, it would have been much easier on him as a battle.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: He isn't overrated. He was 69 when he died.. he was an old ass man. He did not do what Danzo did and stole Hashi DNA, and Sharingans(even with those Danzo did NOT want to fuck with Hiruzen). He did not have a kekkei genkei or a giant summoning. Yet it was said he never lost a single battle. He was the strongest of the 5 kage, that includes the 4th kazekage, 4th raikage, 5th mizukage, and Onoki. Hiruzen was labeled God of Shinobi because Orochimaru says that if he was even 59 when they fought, Orochimaru would have lost no doubt. Hiruzen is a true God of Shinobi because he became number 1 without having or stealing a kekkei genkei, giant summonings, senjutsu, or a tailed beast. You all forget he was one person Akatsuki and Danzo never wanted to fuck with. I just wish Kishimoto would of shown us Hiruzen in his prime so everyone could shut up.

      Thank you Itachi, I couldn't have said it better, but I will add for dramatic effect.

      In this day and age, there are those naive enough to measure the value of a man by the size of his dick. People have similarly done this with Naruto in a number of ways including but not limited to...

      Measuring Jinchuriki by the number of dicks they have

      Measuring Uchiha by the calibur of dick moves they have

      Measuring Senju/Uzumaki by how big their dicks, er...chakras are

      Measuring Sages by if they have toad, snake, slug, or other dicks

      Measuring other ninja by how many elemental dicks they can use and or combine

      Now, to quote many satisfied women and probably some men the world over, "Its not how big it is, its how you use it." Sarutobi Hiruzen was a bad ass who didn't need no kekkei genkai, bijuu, doujutsu, or other crutch to show just how man he was. He did it on his own. Also, with all the innuendo it should be noted that Hiruzen had the biggest pole after all, his name is Enma. Also, isn't it poetic he died at 69?

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    • Come on man, I am with you.. but dicks?? there are children on this site too I believe.

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    • Dick has been allowed by the FCC on radio, but you said fuck. The mods are free to change/censor it as they please and I bear them no ill will if such actions are taken. However, that being said, I stand by my nomenclature.

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    • This discussion became a bit longer than I thought it would while I was away...don't even know where to begin now.

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    • Agreed, @Hiyayaka. Hiruzen was badass without the need of any sort of Kekkei Genkai. Also it should be noted that even at 69 years he was, by no means, a pushover.

      The thing is that Kishi saw fit to boost the shit out of the main characters, to insane levels.

      I say this as a huge fan of Minato, who got downgraded to a lower-grade Tobirama... something which really bothers me to this day.

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    • I like Hiruzen and think he's a pretty strong character, but I don't think he was ever stronger than Hashirama or Tobirama.

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    • Since we don't have access to his abilities when he was on his prime, I'll respect your choice.

      Since it is a choice to think like that, since Kishi stated (repeatedly) in the Databooks that Hiruzen was "the strongest shinobi of all time".

      I don't think you can really dispute with the 'opinion' of the author on things like that... but whatever suits you.

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    • I wouldn't just rely on old databooks. Seems pretty obvious after all the stuff that's happened in the series that the two of them are stronger.

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    • Hiyayaka-kun wrote:

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: He isn't overrated. He was 69 when he died.. he was an old ass man. He did not do what Danzo did and stole Hashi DNA, and Sharingans(even with those Danzo did NOT want to fuck with Hiruzen). He did not have a kekkei genkei or a giant summoning. Yet it was said he never lost a single battle. He was the strongest of the 5 kage, that includes the 4th kazekage, 4th raikage, 5th mizukage, and Onoki. Hiruzen was labeled God of Shinobi because Orochimaru says that if he was even 59 when they fought, Orochimaru would have lost no doubt. Hiruzen is a true God of Shinobi because he became number 1 without having or stealing a kekkei genkei, giant summonings, senjutsu, or a tailed beast. You all forget he was one person Akatsuki and Danzo never wanted to fuck with. I just wish Kishimoto would of shown us Hiruzen in his prime so everyone could shut up.

      Thank you Itachi, I couldn't have said it better, but I will add for dramatic effect.

      In this day and age, there are those naive enough to measure the value of a man by the size of his dick. People have similarly done this with Naruto in a number of ways including but not limited to...

      Measuring Jinchuriki by the number of dicks they have

      Measuring Uchiha by the calibur of dick moves they have

      Measuring Senju/Uzumaki by how big their dicks, er...chakras are

      Measuring Sages by if they have toad, snake, slug, or other dicks

      Measuring other ninja by how many elemental dicks they can use and or combine

      Now, to quote many satisfied women and probably some men the world over, "Its not how big it is, its how you use it." Sarutobi Hiruzen was a bad ass who didn't need no kekkei genkai, bijuu, doujutsu, or other crutch to show just how man he was. He did it on his own. Also, with all the innuendo it should be noted that Hiruzen had the biggest pole after all, his name is Enma. Also, isn't it poetic he died at 69?

      You're interesting. Very unique.

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    • Hiruzen was never shown in his prime and because of his old age would have to conserve chakra and use it right. He has shown to have all the techniques something even many haven't accomplished so that's something. Despite his old age he has shown to be rather good but old age must be his downfall. But I honestly do think he was underrated a bit even for his age. During Hiruzen fight with the fellow Hokages and Orochimaru the Hokages wasn't at full potential but Hiruzen was in his old age and as many have said he was a lot better than what he's shown in his old age so that supports he was a lot stronger than what he's shown. But its understandable as Hiruzen hasn't shown the greatest of prowess especially with people getting powerups, cough cough Minato...cough cough Hashirama. But it plainly has said and directed that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in his prime though.

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    • Yeah, agreed. I said before and I will say again that I will believe Kishi's facts from his manga, over these Hiruzen doubters and their opinions. Databook 4 will show everything when it comes out, and hopefully it will not cause more confusion and things left unsettled.

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    • In his prime I'm sure Hiruzen was strong. I think he was stronger than Minato when he was alive, just not Hashirama or Tobirama. It plainly obvious and kind of already been said that Hashirama is the strongest.

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    • I disagree. They've always said him in his prime was the big threat but have we seen him in his prime so we can't say differently. It seems in his old age the other hokages especially with their new abilities even Tsunade (love her) can take him on and its no diss its just how its putting it not that he wouldn't stand stand a chance. He's still pretty bomb ass for an old guy if you ask me. I just wish Kishi showed us see him fighting in his prime.

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    • People need to realize several things 1 no hiruzin is not overrated 2. no he has never been as powerful as Hashirama. Maybe tobirama but not hashirama 3. Hashirama stated after seeing Naruto in battle that Naruto's chakra level is almost key word ALMOST as large as mine(Naruto was in kyuubi mode) this means that Hashirama has a chakra level that surpasses Kurama. 4. Hiruzin stated that Hashirama is as powerful as everwhen he told tobirama to lower his finger 5. Orochimaru said"hashirama is different, he could break free of my control at any time" he did not say that Hashirama and Hiruzin can he said only Hashirama can,in intelligence yes Hiruzin is far more intelligent than the idiot that Hashirama is

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    • Rachin123 wrote: Hiruzen was never shown in his prime and because of his old age would have to conserve chakra and use it right. He has shown to have all the techniques something even many haven't accomplished so that's something. Despite his old age he has shown to be rather good but old age must be his downfall. But I honestly do think he was underrated a bit even for his age. During Hiruzen fight with the fellow Hokages and Orochimaru the Hokages wasn't at full potential but Hiruzen was in his old age and as many have said he was a lot better than what he's shown in his old age so that supports he was a lot stronger than what he's shown. But its understandable as Hiruzen hasn't shown the greatest of prowess especially with people getting powerups, cough cough Minato...cough cough Hashirama. But it plainly has said and directed that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in his prime though.


      IT HAS NEVER been said that he was strongre than Hashirama anyone who said that has not read the manga

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    • Blaezej wrote: Since we don't have access to his abilities when he was on his prime, I'll respect your choice.

      Since it is a choice to think like that, since Kishi stated (repeatedly) in the Databooks that Hiruzen was "the strongest shinobi of all time".

      I don't think you can really dispute with the 'opinion' of the author on things like that... but whatever suits you.

      you need to go look at the databooks again because clearly you are wrong here is what it says in total the databooks rate Hiruzen as a level 34 out of shinobi. the same databook states that Orochimaru is a 35 and Jiraiya is a 35.5 and Tsunade a 35. right there you are proven wrong being that all 3 sannin are rated higher than him Hashirama on the other hand is different during the Fourth Shinobi World War when fighting Madara despite Madara gaining various enhancements since their last battle, including increased physical parameters well-beyond his prime, the Wood Release possession and mastery of the Rinnegan, Hashirama was still able to fight on par against Madara while being just shy of his full power with a little Aid from Naruto

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    • It doesn't matter if Asura migrated to Naruto by then Hashirama still has the same level of chakra he had while alive. once changed by the indra and asura's chakra the shinobi has those changes forever, hashirama said that in nine tailed mode naruto's chakra level was almost as high as hashirama that means hashirama has chakra that surpass the 9 tails in size

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    • Are you special, Randell??? It was stated in the databooks and in the manga that Hiruzen was the strongest of all Hokage, obviously it was referring to him in his prime. It also said in all sources that at the time of his death he was the strongest of the 5 kage.

      Seelentau also translated that chapter about his chakra volume and he never said "almost", he said it was the on the same volume as his. Hiruzen in his prime was the strongest Kage ever.

      EDIT: LOL Randell you are only helping my case mentioning his stats. He has a 5 in EVERYTHING except for stamina, strength and speed. Why?? Because he was 69 damn years old and according to Orochimaru, his personal anbu, and Enma he was MISERABLE compared to his prime and it was a sad show to see as he fought Orochimaru.. Hiruzen in his prime at the very least ties with Hashirama.

      Can everyone just get over this already and shut this thread?

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      merged.
      13:42, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling.
      13:42, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • I don't really see how you can think Hiruzen is the strongest based off of an old outdated databook.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Are you special, Randell??? It was stated in the databooks and in the manga that Hiruzen was the strongest of all Hokage, obviously it was referring to him in his prime. It also said in all sources that at the time of his death he was the strongest of the 5 kage. Seelentau also translated that chapter about his chakra volume and he never said "almost", he said it was the on the same volume as his. Hiruzen in his prime was the strongest Kage ever. Can everyone just get over this already and shut this thread?

      that was way before Kishimoto planned on reviving both Madara and Hashirama because based on the same and i mean same exact databooks it states all 3 sannin are more powerful than Hiruzen. and in the databooks physical stamina and chakra are all rolled into one ie that means that if someone has say a stamina of 4 that means they are a beast. Hiruzen being an old man should not matter because with a stamina rating of 3 that means he is on the same level of stamina of both itachi and kakashi. that is hardly old man stamina. there is no way he is more powerful than hashirama you are crazy if you believe that. if Hiruzen is rated as a 34 than hashirama would be over 60

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    • The max is a 40 and the numbers are tiered, not flat out numbers. The manga and databook info trumps your opinion. The authors words?? you guessed it.. it trumps your opinion.

      It was never said that "Hashirama was the strongest Hokage" or Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen. Hiruzen as an Edo Tensei and as an Old Man?? Sure Hashi could beat that, but prime Hiruzen?? Naw bruh.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      merged
      13:42, September 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • It was never really said that Hiruzen was stronger than Hashirama either. The only person who did was Iruka, who wasn't even alive to see Hashirama and Tobirama fight.

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    • that makes no sense the data books says there is a max of 40 but that makes no sence because the 35.5 that jiraiya has is no where near the power level of hashirama. anyone who is rated at above 30 is nothing compared to hashirama or madara Hell nagato is a speck compared to madara and he easily defeated people who are as skilled as Jiraiya. you keep saying the databooks prove your point which is a lie they do not have hashirama rated in it and if they did they would have to raise the max of 40 to something way higher because no one in the manga has ever come close to hashirama and madara accept for naruto and sasuke and the obvious kaguya and hagoromo you can say Hiruzen is comparable to hashirama all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Hashirama is just far more powerful

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    • @actionmanrandell First of all the stats shouldn't be compared to those who don't have any which brings up confusion. And the whole max is 40 issue. You do realize that Hashirama wont get all fives for everything just cuz Hiruzen has almost all fives. Like Hiruzen has a 5 in intelligence do you really think no offense Hashirama is gonna get a 5 too? Iruka maybe didn't know know of Hashirama's prowess but I'm sure he's heard of it and yet he still speculated Hiruzen to be strongest Hokage specifically going by his prime which again we have not seen. And you may think Hashirama is more powerful because again he isn't in his old age and got that poweruo of Sage Mode. It would've helped if Orochimaru brought Hiruzen back at prime. And you can say he's not when we actually don't know since we don't know how powerful Hiruzen was at prime so the best you can come up with is that Hashirama was the strongest Hokage at the point of Hokages deaths. Hashirama probably around late 30's, Tobirama around mid 30's, Hiruzen old age, and Minato before he hit prime.

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    • Cleaned up the thread of useless posts.

      This is a warning to Munchvtec and ItachWasAHero: please do not troll other members in threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but do not attack or troll others because you don't like their opinion.

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    • SuperSajuuk wrote: Cleaned up the thread of useless posts.

      This is a warning to Munchvtec and ItachWasAHero: please do not troll other members in threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but do not attack or troll others because you don't like their opinion.

      Tell em like it is my friend.

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    • Eric Burrell wrote:

      SuperSajuuk wrote: Cleaned up the thread of useless posts.

      This is a warning to Munchvtec and ItachWasAHero: please do not troll other members in threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but do not attack or troll others because you don't like their opinion.

      Tell em like it is my friend.

      Really dude -_-

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    • Rachin123 wrote:

      Eric Burrell wrote:

      SuperSajuuk wrote: Cleaned up the thread of useless posts.

      This is a warning to Munchvtec and ItachWasAHero: please do not troll other members in threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but do not attack or troll others because you don't like their opinion.

      Tell em like it is my friend.

      Really dude -_-

      It won't physically hurt anyone if we could all be nice to each other. Then this place would be more enjoyable. But as the ignorance grows, the appeal falls.

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    • I understand but as everyone is different, people tend to think different and thus leads up to debates and sometimes ignorance is what ticks people off especially when the person claims their statement true. But yes some things people say are bit much.

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    • Rachin123 wrote: @actionmanrandell First of all the stats shouldn't be compared to those who don't have any which brings up confusion. And the whole max is 40 issue. You do realize that Hashirama wont get all fives for everything just cuz Hiruzen has almost all fives. Like Hiruzen has a 5 in intelligence do you really think no offense Hashirama is gonna get a 5 too? Iruka maybe didn't know know of Hashirama's prowess but I'm sure he's heard of it and yet he still speculated Hiruzen to be strongest Hokage specifically going by his prime which again we have not seen. And you may think Hashirama is more powerful because again he isn't in his old age and got that poweruo of Sage Mode. It would've helped if Orochimaru brought Hiruzen back at prime. And you can say he's not when we actually don't know since we don't know how powerful Hiruzen was at prime so the best you can come up with is that Hashirama was the strongest Hokage at the point of Hokages deaths. Hashirama probably around late 30's, Tobirama around mid 30's, Hiruzen old age, and Minato before he hit prime.

      We can't really say he wouldn't get a 5 or close to it, Hashirama isn't really stupid or anything like that. He's just cheerful and friendly. Also, if Iruka and most of the other leaf ninja weren't around to see the Senju brothers fight then they can't really say that Hiruzen was stronger without really seeing the two in them in action. Hashirama might not even need sage mode to beat Hiruzen if they were to fight. Also, I don't think the Senju brothers are that young considering they had grandchildren and both of them lived long enough to see them.

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    • True but they definitely weren't in there 50's. And yes Hashirama isn't dumb but I don't believe he'd get a 5. You believe Hashirama doesn't need sage mode to beat him yet he fought Hiruzen with Tobirama despite being weakend Hirzuen was old and lost. Until I see Hiruzen in his prime I'm not throwing he's the strongest Hokage out the window. You believe what you want but all signs point Hiruzen prime to be the strongest Hokage.

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    • Well we can't really know for sure how old they were. Also, when they fought Hiruzen they were no where near full strength and they were being controlled by Orochimaru. Also, if Hiruzen was as strong as you think he was in his prime then we more than likely would have seen glimpses of his strength while he was in his prime in a fashback at least, or maybe someone would have tried to find a way to bring him back as an Edo Tensei in his prime to fight Madara. However, it was said that Hashirama was the only one who could stop Madara.

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    • I did say that they weren't at full strength but Hiruzen wasn't at prime either not saying it's an excuse just that you cant measure how great of a Hokage he is in his age especially since most of them weren't even his age. Secondly about a flashback. Really cuz I don't remember SaumonHatajte gettimng one either even he was said even be more powerful than all three sannin. Third Kazekage no flashback. So that statement is irrelevant. And exactly why didn't Orochimaru bring him back at his prime? But the same could go with Chiyo who was brought back at her old age too. And yes Hashirama was the only able to stop him. Mostly because Hiruzen wasn't in his prime and Hashirama knows him so well too so there you go.

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    • Dan was the one who said Madara could only be stopped by Hashirama. Since he was dead he wouldn't know how old Hiruzen had gotten, and because of when he was alive he would actually have a better understanding of how strong the Senju brothers were instead of someone like Iruka.

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    • Who's "Dan"? Anyways we haven't seen Hus prowess in his prime so I'm tie them at the least.

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    • Dan was Tsunade's lover, he wanted to become Hokage but was unfortunately killed. He died a long time ago so he wouldn't know that Hiruzen was old, and like I said before, because of when he was alive he would have a much better understanding of the true strength of the Senju brothers. If you're willing to tie them though then that's cool for now.

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    • Dan was Tsunade's age so he would've been a kid when Hashirama died, he's not the best judge of who's stronger, if Danzo or one of the others who were from Hiruzen's generation said that Hashirama was the strongest, it would be more convincing.

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    • Thank you.

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    • Thought he was a better judge than Iruka at least.

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    • hiruzean was not overrated just because we haven't seen him in many fights.

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    • A FANDOM user
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