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Narutopedia

Very Long Articles

  • Hi.

    This topic is to discuss the issue of long articles. Some of our articles are getting so long that they're impossible to edit, especially in the case of reverting pointless additions to them.

    For example, it took me over a minute to revert an edit made to Naruto Uzumaki.

    Maybe the best idea for these articles is to move them to subpages of the main article and only allow editing in the subpages created? This would surely reduce the amount of time taken to edit as only individual sections would need to be edited, rather than the whole article at once.

    Please discuss below. Thanks.

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    • I've suggested splitting sections of such articles into subpages a long time ago, but it never really went forward. The only thing along those lines that ever happened was the article on Naruto's relationships.

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    • Yeah, I remember the discussions on that. The Background, Abilities and story-specific info are getting way too long and are slowing down the page.

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    • I've been trying to take a hatchet to some articles for years. Varying success. Basically, the biggest issue (to me) is that for some characters, their Personality and Ability Sections get massive. Like ridiculously so. For example, Tobi's Personality section is 11 paragraphs long. Like dafuq.

      Unfortunately, the last time I tried to fix one of these, Madara being the case, a big fan kept reverting it, saying I was cutting out important information, with a few token removals to appease me, but yeah. End result was still "This section is really stupid long".

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    • Maybe we could just keep the sections long, but move them into subpages? For example, Naruto Uzumaki/Background and doing {{:Naruto Uzumaki/Background}} to include the text into the Naruto Uzumaki page? This may be a temporary fix to the problem that could be considered.

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    • A temporary fix yes, but to me just simply hiding of the problem. Namely, certain sections are just to godsdamned big, especially when they don't really need to be.

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    • Agree with TU3. I feel it to be pointless for an editor to go to half a dozen different pages to update the same article.

      Also, I have no problems with rendering or editing the long pages. They always load under about 10 secs or so.. What exactly is your problem — Rendering of the page or the editor?

      You might want to try this till then.

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    • I don't see how it's pointless, it's a perfectly valid solution that can be used temporarily while the contents are trimmed...

      When I click the button to "Publish" my edit, it takes a long time to submit. As a result, if other edits are made in that time, my edit is not submitted, which means I have to spend even longer doing whatever it was I was trying to do.

      Your tool doesn't solve anything, it's the fact that submitting the editor form takes so long is a problem and no amount of tools can fix it, except trimming down the size of the article. Undo and Rollback just basically do an AJAX submission, so it's still affected by the problem.

      In fact, your tools simply hide the fact that there are problems with long articles at all, telling people to use them to get around long editing times is not a solution....

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    • I support this idea, practically every Wiki that deals with Main Characters end up doing this. See OP Wiki, FT Wiki, Bleach Wiki.

      By the way, Bleach Wiki not only created subpages but also created subtopics with scrolling bars: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki#Plot

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    • Let it be noted that OP Wiki and Bleach Wiki are hardly wikis we want to emulate; especially the former. Bleach Wiki had no other choice as their articles were nearly 3x longer than our own.

      I am in agreement with UltimateSupreme. If I want to edit Naruto Uzumaki, I don't want to hunt down a page for every section I want to edit. That is even more time consuming than just hitting the edit button and waiting all of sixty seconds (never is that long for me, but still) would. It creates confusion for new editors, needless clutter for our wiki, and does not attack the root of the problem, which is that too much "fluff" is added to the articles. I mean, by the Nine, Tobirama has a trivia point about how often he folds his damn arms.

      Naruto does not need a new reference and a whole new paragraph added to his abilities each time he uses a Shadow Clone, and Talos knows Madara doesn't need more. We would be better off spending our time trimming down on useless or repetitive information, because, at this point, reading our site is an acceptable method of circumventing reading the manga. We have every last detail on every single page that we come across. The result of that are pages that are ten times as long as they need to be.

      Furthermore, and this is an issue I have addressed to Wikia concerning the Naruto Fanon Wiki, Semantic Media Wiki, which runs our infobox templates and a ton of other features on our site, is very taxing to net speeds. This is a problem they acknowledge, but will not fix because Semantic Media Wiki has been discontinued, with only wikis who had it before said discontinuing still possessing it. When you slap those templates onto longer articles, like Naruto and Madara, the load time becomes absolutely ridiculous.

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    • But the tabs in OP wiki for each section is nice. Putting the Characters Abilities in one of the tabs, Personality and Relationships in another of those sections, one part for History and what is going on in the story, and Misc. for everything else (Legacy, Movie, games, Creation and concept, Trivia, quotes, etc.)

      that organization method in the OP wiki on for example Luffy's page would be great on this wiki. Even if the over all wiki doesn't fit, those parts would be very simple, organized, and look great.

      Also, even if a lot of info was cut, this is a series that has 682 chapters and more to come (might even reach the 700 mark). In the end, there probably would be a lot of info anyways, so organizing it would still be an issue.

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    • You're missing the point.

      Those tabs the OP Wiki creates, requires a separate page for each individual one. So rather than me going to one place and editing all of the information at once, I now have to open up three different tabs just to put in the information. Its time consuming, frustrating, confusing at times, and flat out irritating.


      Not to mention you've now taken what was supposed to be a few paragraphs describing someone's personality and turned it into its own article, which only increases the size of the segment, encourages fluff, which we're trying to avoid, and needlessly clutters up the wiki with several sub-pages for each character we do this with.

      Add that to what I already mentioned above, that Semantic Media Wiki already makes this site slower than others, and you are actually making the problem worse, rather than doing anything to improve it. Literally nothing is solved with tabs. Our problem is with unneeded fluff.

      I'm sorry that some Madara fan boys will be pissed that we don't mention every singular moment Madara is kicking ass in the story, but we're not here to appease the fringes of the Naruto fanbase. We're here to provide a professionalized summary of Kishi's universe.

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    • I just want to point out, the Naruto Uzumaki's Relationships page was made because all of that used to be in Naruto's personality section.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: I just want to point out, the Naruto Uzumaki's Relationships page was made because all of that used to be in Naruto's personality section.

      I checked, and there didn't used to be a section on his relationship with Tenten.

      Tenten.

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    • @Ten Tailed Fox

      But most people try to edit parts instead of always a whole, & it keeps things more organized. While it creates ore pages, it makes editing easier and the stuff easier to find.

      Plus, even if it's a summary, for the main characters, it will be almost 700 chapters worth of summary. And it's a series loaded with information and rules and complexities.

      If this series were smaller and less complex, then maybe it'd make more sense to condense it....

      Though there are some things that could be condensed, but there is still a lot going on in the series.

      Lots of info and pages for a long series with so many twist-turns, and complexities would definitely have a lot of info. And in the end, too much info is better than too little for this wiki.

      Course, I do wonder why each character has a long ass thing explaining what they were doing in each arc.... shouldn't most of that information already be in a page for that arc instead.

      Then, you could just show that the character was involved in that arc and link to the arc instead. Makes things easier, cause then you'd only have to edit an arc page for what happened in the story unless if it is specifically relevant to the character

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    • @Ten Tailed Fox: I understand what you are trying to say, but Deathmailrock is correct: we don't usually edit a whole article all at once, we tend to edit only a small section of the article.

      I still think using subpages and transcluding the content using template code is a viable solution for now, until we get the time to cut down on the content: however, I don't think it's going to be possible to trim down everything in the large articles without removing key details.

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    • You could work with tabber like this: http://de.naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Benutzer:PSPHERO/Testseite

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    • PSPHERO wrote: You could work with tabber like this: http://de.naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Benutzer:PSPHERO/Testseite_2

      Tabber is a bad idea, I don't think it's necessary to use that. My method is somewhat better, but I think the whole thing comes back to the excessive use of Semantic MediaWiki used here: if the infoboxes can be redone using Lua or some other less-expensive system, it would be great :/

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    • What both SuperSaj and Deathmail have said, actually has some merit to it. Initially, as i read this discussion I had trouble pinpointing the real issue here. Was it to trim articles b/c they're too long, or rather simply find another solution to make things more friendly to those trying to navigate through a characters page?

      While of course, any of these solutions would only apply to the main characters, the only viable option that's been given here is using subpages. Any argument against it seems to be out of spite of the idea. Whether it's just plain laziness or whatever, there seems to be no other solution that works well for the concept of making everything more concise and organised visually.

      Deathmailrock wrote: Plus, even if it's a summary, for the main characters, it will be almost 700 chapters worth of summary. And it's a series loaded with information and rules and complexities.

      If this series were smaller and less complex, then maybe it'd make more sense to condense it....

      This right here, sums it all.

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    • Also, as I said before, why do we write in the pages everything the characters did? Isn't it all already on that arcs page?

      We could just note which arcs the character was in and redirect to that arc, rather rewriting on each characters page what they did in that arc.

      It would save a lot of space & would be great for organization purpose. & trimming down the content.

      And the arc pages are already organized and divided, so we could just redirect to the part of the arc the characters were in, even stating all the parts they were in....

      It could be put in a table, the arcs they were in & what parts they were in... for example, for Tayuya in Part 1, Instead of This, we could do this something similar to (but obviously better looking than) this:

      Part 1Edit

      Arc
      Invasion of Konoha Arc

      The Third Hokage vs Orochimaru

      Sasuke Retrieval Arc

      Want for Power

      Kiba and Akamaru vs. Sakon and Ukon/Shikamaru vs. Tayuya

      The Sand Arrives

      It would make the Articles have a lot less content

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    • I agree with Deathmailrock. The bits at the bottom of the character pages seem redundant, since the arc pages describe everything done anyway....

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    • The arc pages aren't supposed to have everything like that. This wiki was never supposed to be a alternative to actually reading the manga. And the reason why each character has their own biography is because each one is supposed to be "character focused", not to mention if one wanted to know say what Ino did in this arc, they don't want to sift through what everyone else did in the arc first.

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    • Agreed with Ultimate about the Arc idea. It seems completely pointless to link everyone to one massive summary.

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    • But all the summaries should each be in parts anyways in the arc section. And a summary should just be a summary.

      While it will give info on what happened, it should be more like a refresher.

      And each part is not that long; The arcs are already divided, so if we wanted to find what Ino did in each part of the arcs, it would be very easy to find, but it would be a lot more organized and summarized.

      If they want to understand more about what Ino did, then they should actually read the manga. The arc pages are just a general idea.

      Also, by linking and organizing things like I did make it easy to find what parts the characters are in and makes the actual character pages have less content, meaning it's cleaner, loads faster, and it's easier to find what the characters did.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: And each part is not that long; The arcs are already divided, so if we wanted to find what Ino did in each part of the arcs, it would be very easy to find, but it would be a lot more organized and summarized.

      You assume Ino's actions are significant enough that what she does amounts to more than a sentence of that larger summary and/or is mentioned at all.

      Deathmailrock wrote: Also, by linking and organizing things like I did make it easy to find what parts the characters are in and makes the actual character pages have less content, meaning it's cleaner, loads faster, and it's easier to find what the characters did.

      Except, in order to find out what Ino does, I need to visit twenty different articles. That is not easier and it most definitely will not load faster.

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    • Well, if you want to read everything she did, people should read the manga. Summaries are more like refreshers or previews. By linking to each part, we would know around which area's she was in and could read just those arc parts.....

      though we should probably add which chapters & episodes are in each part of the arcs.

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    • Those summaries in each characters page are a huge part of the reason why the articles are ridiculously long... I mean, more than half the article is a summary of what the characters did in the arcs; by removing what they did in the arcs, then we'd cut down a lot of what is on the page.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Well, if you want to read everything she did, people should read the manga. Summaries are more like refreshers or previews. By linking to each part, we would know around which area's she was in and could read just those arc parts.....

      Right, and by reading the arc summaries I can get a nice refresher of what characters like Naruto and Sasuke are doing, but most of the time I'm not going to get any sort of refresher of what Ino is doing.

      Deathmailrock wrote: Those summaries in each characters page are a huge part of the reason why the articles are ridiculously long... I mean, more than half the article is a summary of what the characters did in the arcs; by removing what they did in the arcs, then we'd cut down a lot of what is on the page.

      I'm not denying there's a length issue. But yours is absolutely the worst solution I've read thus far.

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    • My idea states which arcs she's in.... and I never stated it was a perfect idea, but it would cut down a lot what is on the pages.

      We don't really need to state everything the characters did on the wiki, do we? Else, we could just replace the anime and manga with the wiki. We should note their abilities and personality, but the actual story should be read from the manga, not the wiki.

      If we note where in the manga the characters were, then readers could find the location of their favorite characters and learn everything they did from reading the manga.

      As stated before, we shouldn't be replacing the manga.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Well, if you want to read everything she did, people should read the manga.

      That's way to tedious. The reason that people read through the arc section in characters' pages is because they don't want to fish through 650+ chapters to find exactlty what they did. It's the same reason we link character's names to their pages: for the viewer's convenience. There is no reason to cut out all of that info. The arc and episode pages are just summaries of what happened. In several cases, a lot of info is cut out because it isn't significant enough to be added. It's not like Shiho's appearance with 5 villagers will be mentioned in an episode or arc page.

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    • Yuri Bara wrote: That's way to tedious. The reason that people read through the arc section in characters' pages is because they don't want to fish through 650+ chapters to find exactly what they did.

      But your noting where the character was involved, so it's easy to find in the actual manga... if you want to know stuff they did in that arc, you could just read that part of the arc

      For their abilities and signs of their personality, the references show where in the manga they did stuff, so we could show where to find all the info. Their quotes also show references to manga chapters as well.

      when the characters do something significant in the arc, it's already noted in the arc pages. So there is already a lot of info on the wiki for finding the place where all the stuff happened

      If we use the wiki and give summaries of everything each character did, there wouldn't be much point in having the manga.

      Maybe we could notice the minor/unnoticeable/forgettable characters and anime only characters and let them have their own summaries, but the more major and memorable characters would be much easier to find all the info for them. They don't really need a whole summary on their page.

      The sound four who had significant parts, the akatsuki, the hokages, team taka, Konoha 11, and other more memorable people don't need a summary section on their page since lots of their major moments are in the arc summaries & their abilities, personality and quotes being referenced help us find specific moments much easier.

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    • Let's pretend articles are like hair. Long articles are people who desperately need a haircut, like this guy.

      Your proposal, in its current form, is to shave half of his head, like this. The hope is that a) nobody will notice how long his remaining hair is, and b) people won't be bothered that half of what should be there is not.

      Tabs, meanwhile, are like this. Being split apart hasn't solved any of the individual strand's length problems. If anything, it's allowed whole sections of hair to become even longer because, hey, there's room now.

      What's really wanted is a haircut in a world devoid of barbers.

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    • That is a very bad analogy because that isn't how articles work. The issue is the article's being too long, not every part of the article.

      Basically, the question was how to make the PAGE shorter. Each section in the article isn't a part of the head of hair.

      Because this series is long (almost 700 freakin chapters), many of the parts will be long & that is something that can't be avoided.

      Removing a section that isn't necessary will shorten the article & putting the stuff in tabs makes things more organized and easier to read.

      That hair cut analogy doesn't even make sense in this context.

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    • Snapper2 wrote: Let's pretend articles are like hair. Long articles are people who desperately need a haircut, like this guy.

      Your proposal, in its current form, is to shave half of his head, like this. The hope is that a) nobody will notice how long his remaining hair is, and b) people won't be bothered that half of what should be there is not.

      Tabs, meanwhile, are like this. Being split apart hasn't solved any of the individual strand's length problems. If anything, it's allowed whole sections of hair to become even longer because, hey, there's room now.


      What's really wanted is a haircut in a world devoid of barbers.

      That is a beautifully wonderful and majestic example Snapper-san XD. I agree with this amazing explaination completely.

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    • The issue is that most of these articles shouldn't be anywhere near as long as they are. Just look at the word-vomit that is Madara's Personality section. You think that section is acceptable so long as the Plot section is moved elsewhere? You clearly don't understand the problem.

      As you point out, the wiki shouldn't be replacing the anime or manga. Yet that's what happens when things become too long. It's not simply a matter of size or length but content. Every section of certain articles has too much content, content that gets into meaningless minutiae that conveniently replaces direct enjoyment of the series. If the content in every section is cut back to what's important, the combined sections are shorter and their overall quality improves.

      To touch on tabs, or rather to expand on my previous remark, splitting long articles into pieces only enables those pieces to become longer then they previously were. Naruto didn't used to have a section dedicated to his "relationship" with Tenten, but now his subpage does. Clearly, editors of that subpage are filling all the new-found space with anything that pops into their precious heads, no matter how preposterous. If the aforementioned word-vomit of Madara's article is split between four subpages, that only permits the chunks of regurgitated matter to grow larger.

      I don't completely dismiss the proposed solutions as non-viable; I think relying more on arc pages could work for certain characters, particularly Naruto. But I would much rather see a genuine effort to solve the size problem by first solving the content problem.

      I'll use the Fourth Shinobi World War page as an example: it used to be 112,906 bytes, which made it the fifth longest article on the wiki. Now it's 61,392 bytes. Question: how was this done? Did somebody relocate half the article elsewhere? Answer: there are no subpages, there is not a cheeky link to Shinobi World War Arc. What happened was somebody took the time to shorten the previous content, and now everybody can both have and eat their cake.

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    • True, most pages don't need all that info, but what about the main characters like Sasuke & Naruto who had almost 700 chapters worth of info....

      Separating the relationships was a good idea, somebody should just regulate it. It should also be noted that minus a few characters in the "Konoha 11" & the "Utakata and Saiken" (cause it's anime only), it is all relevant relations... though the character points might be better off shortened.

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    • Shortening, or as I like to call it, "trimming the fat", is the best solution. Yes, Naruto's article is still going to be long. That's not the point. The point is that it is too long because there is a lot of unneeded junk in the article. I really don't care to read, under his Shadow Clone Technique section, about every singular instance of his usage of said technique. But that's what happened. Everytime he uses something, ten new paragraphs suddenly appear (I'm exaggerating, but you get the point), when we only really need one or two good examples to prove his skill in the usage of said techniques.

      Same for the personality section. No, it is not a personality quirk that Tobirama folds his arms. Yet we have a fringe that insists we mention it on his page.

      That said, I'll reiterate that I am staunchly against tabs. As I believe Snapper was getting at, and I mentioned earlier, that makes the problem worse, not better. We need to focus on getting rid of the junk information in each article. This site isn't a substitute for the manga anymore than an actual encyclopedia is a substitute for reading a book on whatever subject it records. If people want to know absolutely everything about Naruto, then its their job to read the series; not ours to spoon-feed it to them.

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    • Trimming the article down by cutting otherwise "unneeded material" is clearly not as effective anymore at this point. That idea leaves everything into almost a single editor's perspective, leaving it completely opinionated on what's good and what's not. There are a couple reasons why this might not work.

      We can't rely on just removed what one might call useless material because that could easily start edit wars. Some people might think that same bit of information is important and instantly revert it. this'll undoubtedly start an argument in the talk page, and after a while one side'll lose and still leaves a lot more work to be done.
      It's also important to remember that this series is 8 years strong. It's going to be hard to breakdown and determine what's meaty and whats fat. The common practice, that's been long standing on this and any other ani-manga wiki, is that "they do it and we document it". That's what most editors are used to and they'll keep doing it.
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    • Koto Senju wrote: Trimming the article down by cutting otherwise "unneeded material" is clearly not as effective anymore at this point.

      Really?

      That's a bold statement to make. Especially when Snapper provided an example of how it has been effective quite recently. I ask you, what proof do you have that your suggestion is true, considering that trimming down on such needless information hasn't ever been given a sitewide, significant chance?

      Or are you just saying it because of the bottom portion of your message? Yes, some people are going to be unhappy with what is cut. Too bad. This isn't a site for fanboys. We record and summarize the series; we don't give a play-by-play. That is what the "fat" is, and what needs to be cut.

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    • @Fox-Boss Proof? Maybe it's the fact that we're still trying to trim large articles, like Madara's and Naruto's, when we've tried the same many times prior to this conversation. All have ended in either failure or becoming only a temporary solution.

      Don't forget that this entire discussion was not based on trimming articles for the sake of the practice, it's about making the longer articles more organised to make editing easier, as I believe SuperSaj pointed out in the opening comment. The idea of simply removing info has proven again and again to not work as well as you'd expect it to. Hence me pointing out that it's not nearly as effective anymore. Too many factors get in the way. That's what happens when you leave all up to personal perspective.

      And yes, the last point is very important. Let's not forget, fan-boys make up a large load of our editors. It's easy to see how it does, seeing how Naruto is such a popular series.

      The only way I see "trimming the fat" as a viable method is after the series ends and we see everything on the table. At least, at that point, there'd be virtually nothing to add to the article, only information that could clearly be removed.

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    • We have not made any significant effort to trim Madara and Naruto's articles. None. Its been talked about time and time again, but is met with resistance evertime from members of the site who are also fans of those characters, who feel we make them look "weaker" if we trim out the 20+ excess mentions of Naruto's Rasengan usage, or every time Madara blinks with his Rinnegan. Look at the talk pages and their archives for proof of that.

      No, by proof, I mean, like Snapper, show me the history of articles where you see we have given a significant effort to reducing their size and yet, as you claim, it hasn't worked. You won't find any to support your claim.

      It has never been tried on a mass scale and I think you'll find that if we did, much of our problem would be dealt with.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: We have not made any significant effort to trim Madara and Naruto's articles. None. Its been talked about time and time again, but is met with resistance evertime from members of the site who are also fans of those characters, who feel we make them look "weaker" if we trim out the 20+ excess mentions of Naruto's Rasengan usage, or every time Madara blinks with his Rinnegan. Look at the talk pages and their archives for proof of that.

      No, by proof, I mean, like Snapper, show me the history of articles where you see we have given a significant effort to reducing their size and yet, as you claim, it hasn't worked. You won't find any to support your claim.

      It has never been tried on a mass scale and I think you'll find that if we did, much of our problem would be dealt with.

      You're right. There's no singular discussion where we all have come to a consensus on whether or not to trim. But, discussions and efforts alike, we have never get anything done with any attempt to trim (and you can't say that we've never attempted to trim singular sections). And that's my point. Come with intention to trim, you try and do something about it, you get knocked back. Come with intention to tab, you get " NO. Let's trim, let's trim" Trimming seemingly doesn't work, so why not try something new for a change.

      Want small tidbits of Trimming and slimming attempt? Here you go. And here's another attempt to Tab.

      Massive article edits to remove said fat?

      Yea, as you can see, there are a few Vigilante Trimmers trying to contribute to the effort. But unless you can get a centralised effort on the matter, you're not going to get anywhere close to reaching your goal. It's an easy thing to establish. Instead, tabs instantly makes things more organised and appeal to the masses a bit more in the method that is used to make it a reality. I mean, as you've said, you always get fought back on.

      I'm not sure what significant means to you, but I'm sure you and I can both agree that trimming an article down isn't just a one time effort. It's slowly done over time, like anything else that's established here on the wiki. And yes, fans may slow down progress, but that's the main obstacle. You of all people should know that saying "too bad" ain't gonna cut this time around. I see people fight you left and right on this type of stuff. By trimming you're fighting an uphill battle.

      Also, note that there's is a huge difference in trimming character articles and summary articles. It's like they exist on two different spectrums. It's not so easy to edit a character without an opposing idea.

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    • I have to agree with Koto here. Any attempts made in the past to trim go nowhere, because the articles cannot be trimmed. It is impossible to trim an article about the TITLE character of the series.

      The only plausible solution is subpages. I can't see anything else that works.

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    • Honestly, the line of thinking that "they cannot be trimmed" is the reason why they can't, basically going into a massive circle. Those vigilantes are/were/whatever trying to do exactly as people like myself have tried, usually met with resistance, such as yourself, who claim that they cannot be trimmed.

      Using Naruto alone one could, one could probably trim down the three paragraph long opening of his Ability section alone. Could being the word, because I'm pretty sure if I tried, I'd have to fight a war about how I'm unnecessarily gutting his page.

      That said, if getting rid of the unnecessary is out of the question, tabbing can work. But I personally would be much much happier if each of the major articles didn't look like someone was playing inside their pants while they were editing the article.

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    • I know its been mentioned, why not simply just cut the fat in the form of compiling the redundant jutsu like "Twin-Rasenshuriken" and slim the article similar to how Sai's jutsu is done? You can put a slideshow of the different variations of such technique, and even the Rasengans. Obviously the Rasengan & Rasenshuriken should be enough, on Naruto's page. If the person wants to know more about the variations of it, he can click the page. I know i'm practically a nobody here. But At least I threw out some solution. I think in the long-term the site should be 'shut-down' in some form for a week to build and aim to have it like the One Piece Wiki; where it has plenty of bars to split up Powers, Personality, Friendship & Story- CmPukesy

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    • I trimmed Naruto's Abilities section a while back, taking it from 176,524 bytes to 154,688 bytes. And that was just by trimming one section. Imagine what difference might be made if the rest of the article was trimmed? The summary alone of his actions from Shinobi World War Arc onwards is a third of the article. A summary of a quarter of the series taking a third of the space? That's a problem.

      And, more or less, I believe the trimming was quite effective. Compare what I did to the current version. Have there been additions? Yes. Have there been restorations of stuff I intentionally removed? Sure; the Taijutsu section is the most noticeable victim of that. But a good percentage of what now makes the article longer is from new content, as in, stuff that has happened in the series since the trimming was done.

      The reason trimming has a bad track record is not because it doesn't work or is inherently flawed, but because nobody wants to do the work. There are lots of people willing to add information, there are lots of people willing to revert those additions, but there are remarkably few people willing to do anything with information older than a week. People are quite perceptive of when articles or sections become too long, but generally they're only willing to point out the problem and hope somebody else does something about it. That's why tabs appear such a lucrative alternative to trimming; anyone who knows how to cut and paste can implement tabs in ten seconds.

      Another way in which trimming reduces load times: if there's less content, people can't stuff as many image into the article and the overall page size is reduced. If I save Naruto's page, it's 5.16 mb, of which about 3 mb is just from images. So there's that.

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    • The problem of images is only due to most of the images being of a high quality, aka 1080p. That's something that can't be helped. :/

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    • SuperSajuuk wrote: The problem of images is only due to most of the images being of a high quality, aka 1080p. That's something that can't be helped. :/

      No, it comes from them being .png. They're all scaled down to 180px in the article, so the other 900px have no impact on the article size.

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    • Off the top of my head, out of all the editors here, there are maybe 4 or 5 that have actively tried to trim the fat. Me and Snapper2 are 2 of them, to piggyback off his comment. And I am very reluctant to do so because people tend to get mad at me whenever I made super large edits.

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    • 54.227.67.175
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