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Naruto 681 Discussion

  • So... So much for everyone who claimed the Shinju is the progenitor of all Chakra.

    Gotta love Kishi. Curve balls left and right. I personally loved this chapter. Some wonderful clarification.

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    • All hail Mistress Kaguya! ... No? Okay, sorry.

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    • You said it. Too bad Kaguya and her sons didn't have any family therapy. I know she needs a specialist and all but I can't help but feel a bit sorry for her.

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    • Nah, I don't feel sorry for her at all. She tried to "take back" her sons' chakra, which would have either killed them or make them White Zetsu.

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    • Benknightprime wrote: Nah, I don't feel sorry for her at all. She tried to "take back" her sons' chakra, which would have either killed them or make them White Zetsu.

      Yeah.

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    • So I was right! It was Kaguya, the whole time... Anyways, Phenomenal chapter, plus after two years we finally get some clarification to how Madara survived his fight with Hashirama.

      Although, an interesting note. Black Zetsu (I presume) told Sauske and Naruto that Madara used Izanagi to escape and in that same panel, one of his eyes is blanked out. If memory serves me right, he obtained the EMS after his brother died and his fight with Hashirama, so does the price of using either Izanagi and Izanami remain the same, EMS or not?

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    • Best chapter in a long while. So many needed answers and explanations, especially about how Madara faked his death. So does this mean we now need a Transcription Seal: Izanagi article or some such?

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    • So Hamura is Hyuuga's ancestor ??

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    • Araogo603 wrote: So Hamura is Hyuuga's ancestor ??

      yep

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    • Ten-Tails being Kaguya's freaky will, called it.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Ten-Tails being Kaguya's freaky will, called it.

      I also suspected as much. I suspect that the highly contested Ten-Tails "eye" is actually Kaguya's and wasn't apart of the tree whatsoever.

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    • That too. I know there was a big hole in the story.

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    • If Sasuke or Naruto ever see Hagoromo again they should punch him in the throat because he knew about sealing Kaguya away and didn't say anything about even though Naruto ask him about it in a way.

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    • I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

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    • Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      ...'cept, Hagoromo is.

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    • I wonder if this means that every Sharingan "upgrade" also removes the status effects on the previous version?

      EDIT: Oh yeah, the final "That Technique" will soon be revealed!

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    • Shouldn't Hamura be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan? Since the Uzumaki clan are distant blood relatives of the Senju clan (like cousins), wouldn't it make sense for Hamura to be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan? Correct me if I'm wrong.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Ten-Tails being Kaguya's freaky will, called it.

      Me too! I actually came up with that theory last week! So glad we were right about this.

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    • Everreddie wrote: Shouldn't Hamura be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan? Since the Uzumaki clan are distant blood relatives of the Senju clan (like cousins), wouldn't it make sense for Hamura to be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan?

      No. That wouldn't even make them distant cousins. This doesn't work like actual family genetics, where your brother's descendants become your cousins. The Uzumaki are directly related to the Senju (meaning there was likely a fork-off in Asura's bloodline), making them Hagoromo's descendants.

      Also, Hagoromo had the Uzumaki's trademark red hair and astonishing vitality.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      ...'cept, Hagoromo is.

      Except, we don't know that. What we do know is that the clans are distantly related. We don't know from what point in their bloodlines. And we can assume that Hamura, in addition to the Byakugan, has the "Sage's body" so to speak.

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    • MangekyoSasuke wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      ...'cept, Hagoromo is.

      Except, we don't know that. What we do know is that the clans are distantly related. We don't know from what point in their bloodlines. And we can assume that Hamura, in addition to the Byakugan, has the "Sage's body" so to speak.

      No, we absolutely know that. There is absolutely, 100%, ZERO room for debate there. The proof is in the fact that Naruto, an Uzumaki, became the transmigrant of Asura, which only Hagoromo's descendants could do (duh, Asura is Hagoromo's son, not Hamura's). Not Hamura's.

      Edit: And again, Hagoromo had the Uzumaki trademark red hair.

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    • Um, yes we do. Logically, it's SO6P-> Asura (Hard work)/Indra (Talent w/Sharingan)-> Senju/Uchiha ~ Uzumaki/Uchiha

      In other terms the, reincarnations of Hagomoro's Sons have always been Senju (+ distant Uzumaki) and Uchiha.

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    • Nowhere was it said that transmigrants appeared only in the bloodline of the transmigrated. Though it certainly seems that all of Indra's were in the Uchiha. But we don't know if all of them were. That was never explicitly stated. One could've been ahyuga for all we know.

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    • Zetsu kinda confirmed yeah, it is.

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    • MangekyoSasuke wrote: Nowhere was it said that transmigrants appeared only in the bloodline of the transmigrated. Though it certainly seems that all of Indra's were in the Uchiha. But we don't know if all of them were. That was never explicitly stated. One could've been ahyuga for all we know.

      That is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site.

      Yes, because Hagoromo's son is going to magically reincarnate into Hamura's descendants. Logic. No. The Senju and Uzumaki were stated to be related, so much so that Nagato was said to have "Senju powers". The Senju were descendants of Hagoromo and Asura was their founder. The Uzumaki are Hagoromo's descendants. Get that through your skull.

      Edit: Furthermore, it was directly stated. In this chapter. To quote Black Zetsu below;

      "Indra and the Uchiha... Asura and the Senju... Each time I approached the new transmigrant in hopes of awakening the Rinnegan, but I always failed."

      Hamura may be the ancestor of the Hyuga, but leave your Uzumaki delusions at the door.

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    • MangekyoSasuke wrote: Nowhere was it said that transmigrants appeared only in the bloodline of the transmigrated. Though it certainly seems that all of Indra's were in the Uchiha. But we don't know if all of them were. That was never explicitly stated. One could've been ahyuga for all we know.

      Well over and over again people seems don't understand simplest things((. Kushina stated that Uzumaki were relatives to Senju. If they were Hamura offsprings then closest to Uzumaki would be Hyuga and Uchihas would be on same level of relation to Uzumaki as Senju why so simple thing is so hard to you people(No offence)

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    • TenshoDama96 wrote: So I was right! It was Kaguya, the whole time... Anyways, Phenomenal chapter, plus after two years we finally get some clarification to how Madara survived his fight with Hashirama.

      Although, an interesting note. Black Zetsu (I presume) told Sauske and Naruto that Madara used Izanagi to escape and in that same panel, one of his eyes is blanked out. If memory serves me right, he obtained the EMS after his brother died and his fight with Hashirama, so does the price of using either Izanagi and Izanami remain the same, EMS or not?

      After he implanted the DNA into himself, his blind right eye that was a EMS became a rinnegan

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    • i absolutely knew that the 10 tails was Kaguya

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote: i absolutely knew that the 10 tails was Kaguya

      Hindsight bias, much?

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    • I never said they weren't related. Example: let's say Asura has cousin X from his uncle that he has a good relationship with. They hang out, introduce their children to each other. This continues on into further generations. The clans are asked, "how do you know each other?" They respond, "oh, were distantly related." And its true. Because Great great grandfather Asura is cousins with X. Or 3x great grandfather is brother of Hamura.

      Also, I just want it known that I'm not at all trying to prove that the Uzumaki clan is descended from Hamura. I merely find the theory equally as valid as them being descended from Hagoromo, and that you have no grounds to say otherwise. For one, if your theory is true, then why is Naruto NOT descended from Hashirama? THAT makes no logical sense. Why don't you do some research on reincarnation beliefs and then try and tell me something like that.

      Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, TTF, but you seem to be basing your idea of "clan relations" on some type of formally made structure of how families work. Example: someone might call their half-sister "sister" instead. But the legal/traditional term is half-sister. And if you are doing what I think you're doing, I'm surprised by now you haven't realized that Kishimoto is a layman. Meaning he has a layman's knowledge of how a lot of things work, and that it might not coincide with what actually is. An example of which would be genetics. And how kekkei genkai as they are in Naruto wouldn't work in real life. So if you are basing it on some type of formal structure, I suggest you rethink that from the point of view of what an average person knows.

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    • Jtw2014 wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote: i absolutely knew that the 10 tails was Kaguya

      Hindsight bias, much?

      No i mentioned on other discussions that i theorized that when kaguya ate the fruit that she became one with the shinju and that she mutated into the 10 tails for the purpose of getting her own chakra back. i also said that i theorized that chakra itself did not exist until the shinju's powers entered her body(based on the fact they have said chakra is the combination of mental and physical energies. since the shinju is made out of natural energy i theorized that it could not actually be the source of chakra)

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    • i will first start off and say this. they are not actually the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura. they are the successors which is not the same thing black zetsu refereed to them as transmigrants. also Black zetsu confirmed that Naruto has to be a decedent of Ashura black zetsu said Indra and Uchiha Ashura and senju. he said that he essentialy egged Indra on and then continued to Egg on Indra and Ashura's Transmigrants(decedents who inherited their chakra) he attempted to get them to awaken the Rinnegan but he finally was capable of getting Madara to awaken the Rinnegan this in itself Proves that the uzumaki clan are senju offshoot not only that but Obit himself(when he was going as madara) stated that Nagato had the power of the senju(which can only happen if nagato is of senju DNA via offshoot

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    • so first post, yay! this chapter has answered some questions and yet left me in more confusion about the origin of chakra and kaguya's story.

      before it was said that kaguya ate the chakra fruit which caused the holy tree to turn into the juubi to retake it. hagoromo and hamura then sealed the juubi. ok so far so good. it's all making sense. But NOW it says that kaguya and the holy tree were one and the same so all the chakra came from kaguya. further more it's saying that it was KAGUYA that was trying to reclaim the chakra that was divided between her 2 sons.

      What I don't understand is that kaguya and the holy tree are the same entity so why would she need to eat the chakra fruit in the first place? being the progenitor of chakra, doesn't she have it already? also why is she going on a rampage if she's the one who took the chakra from herself (again, somehow) in the first place? also can someone plz explain how in the world can kaguya be a part of the juubi and yet have a different body?

      a timeline of events starting at the very beginning would help greatly.

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    • Kaguya ate the fruit which gave her the power of the shinju the shinju was made of nothing but natural energy when it hit her body she was capable of molding her Physical energies with her spiritual energy(chakra is made of spiritual and physical energy) as such the shinju's power allowed her to combine said spiritual and physical energies creating chakra it never said that originally kaguya and the shinju were one entity but that they became one entity when she ate the fruit also they showed it. the juubi is the aggregate of all the tailed beasts chakra(which is really kaguya's chakra) the body of the juubi is the gadou mazou so essentially kaguya's original body is the gadou mazou she likely mutated her body into that form and changed into the juubi.

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    • it never said that originally kaguya and the shinju were one entity but that they became one entity when she ate the fruit also they showed it.

      well technically it never said that they later joined to become one entity either but i guess that is the most logical conclusion.

      kaguya's original body is the gadou mazou she likely mutated her body into that form and changed into the juubi.

      but why? what's the point of changing into the juubi if she's more powerful in her original form?

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    • Wait, if Kaguya got the chakra from the Tree by eating the fruit, then how is she the progenitor of chakra?

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    • ok so the shinju article is saying this:

      The Shinju (神樹), more commonly referred to as the Ten-Tails (十尾, Jūbi), is a primordial entity, created by the will of Kaguya Ōtsutsuki to reclaim the chakra inherited by her two sons, Hagoromo and Hamura.

      Huh? wasn't it already there?

      edit: i've read the rest of the article and it makes more sense now. it wasn't a conscious decision but her uncontrollable (presumably) rage that caused her to take on the manifestation of the juubi.

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    • The Winter King wrote: Wait, if Kaguya got the chakra from the Tree by eating the fruit, then how is she the progenitor of chakra?


      the fruit simply gave her the shinju's natural energy(senjutsu with out the chakra) she then molded it with her spiritual and physical energies creating chakra her sons were then born with chakra

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    • 11zeeshha
      11zeeshha removed this reply because:
      wrong reply
      09:13, June 18, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      The Winter King wrote: Wait, if Kaguya got the chakra from the Tree by eating the fruit, then how is she the progenitor of chakra?

      you only need to mold spiritual and physical energy together to make chakra. natural energy isn't needed. why does she need the fruit? the fruit simply gave her the shinju's natural energy(senjutsu with out the chakra) she then molded it with her spiritual and physical energies creating chakra her sons were then born with chakra

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      The Winter King wrote: Wait, if Kaguya got the chakra from the Tree by eating the fruit, then how is she the progenitor of chakra?


      the fruit simply gave her the shinju's natural energy(senjutsu with out the chakra) she then molded it with her spiritual and physical energies creating chakra her sons were then born with chakra


      you only need spiritual and physical energy to make chakra. natural energy isn't needed. so why did she need the fruit?

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    • 11zeeshha wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      The Winter King wrote: Wait, if Kaguya got the chakra from the Tree by eating the fruit, then how is she the progenitor of chakra?


      the fruit simply gave her the shinju's natural energy(senjutsu with out the chakra) she then molded it with her spiritual and physical energies creating chakra her sons were then born with chakra


      you only need spiritual and physical energy to make chakra. natural energy isn't needed. so why did she need the fruit?

      i did not say you need nature energy to create chakra. its just that the shinju was made out of a massive amount of natural energy it gave her intense godly powers she then Molded her physical and spiritual energies together to create chakra

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    • ok yeah that makes sense.

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    • I've read the chapter over and over and I don't get it. 1) Was the ten tails kaguya's will or not?

      2) What were hagoromo's and hamura's motives to attack/seal kaguya?

      3) Chakra, who had it first?

      4) Why is kaguya trying to get everyone's chakra?

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    • 1) The Ten-Tails is what happens when Kaguya's ego lusts for the worlds chakra and the Shinju tree responds. Turns out, the Shinju itself is not sentient at all. With an eye at the top.

      2) Considering Black Zetsu said at least the Sage didn't know that his mother was that crazy, it can be assumed that they didn't know their mother's will caused created the Ten-Tails when they sealed it up.

      3) From what I can gather, still the Ten-Tails.

      4) Because she is very very selfish and she didn't even want her kids to have it, so damn the world for getting chakra too.

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    • Karuroo wrote: I've read the chapter over and over and I don't get it. 1) Was the ten tails kaguya's will or not?

      2) What were hagoromo's and hamura's motives to attack/seal kaguya?

      3) Chakra, who had it first?

      4) Why is kaguya trying to get everyone's chakra?

      1st: We believe it was Kaguya's will controlling it.

      2nd: Could possibly be that Kaguya activated the Infinite Tsukuyomi and they tried to reverse it.

      3rd: Kaguya, technically had it first. But, Hagoromo and Hamura were the first to be BORN with it.

      4th: Kaguya has both a God and a Messiah Complex, she believes that she is the only one that should possess Chakra.

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    • it wasn't her will controlling it. the 10 tails was literally the manifestation of her will she wanted to take back chakra from her sons(her chakra chakra is the molding of physical and mental energies so the shinju did not actually have chakra. the shinju was made of natural energy) hagoromo and hurama thought the shinju mutated into the 10 tails but it really was just kaguya. they sealed her away before that happened kaguya's will birthed Black zetsu who manipulated indra and ashura's decedents(specifically the successors(madara and hashirama and would have tried to manipulate sasuke and naruto) into awakening the Rinnegan(but failed until madara) for the purpose of reviving her

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    • I think that the chapter was good/decent. I kinda had the feeling that Hamura would have something to do with the hyuga clan, and the affiliation of Shinju and Kaguya was interesting, plus the Madara and black zetsu story expansions were nice. Overall interesting, and i expect more action in the next chapters, but we'll see.

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    • So she IS the Shinju? If she is, I'm calling it. I called it a week ago!

      They thought I was crazy! They thought I was a nut! But I'll show them! I gots me gold and me sports car, just reerin' to go!

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    • Super Kurama wrote: So she IS the Shinju? If she is, I'm calling it. I called it a week ago!

      They thought I was crazy! They thought I was a nut! But I'll show them! I gots me gold and me sports car, just reerin' to go!

      Yes and No. the shinju is the holy tree and i called it aswell and everyone was telling me either that i was crazy or that we will see. what happened is she ate the fruit and became god like once she had the natural energy of the shinju she molded her physical and mental energies together to create chakra. she is the 10 tails though that much we know since thats what black zetsu said

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Super Kurama wrote: So she IS the Shinju? If she is, I'm calling it. I called it a week ago!

      They thought I was crazy! They thought I was a nut! But I'll show them! I gots me gold and me sports car, just reerin' to go!

      Yes and No. the shinju is the holy tree and i called it aswell and everyone was telling me either that i was crazy or that we will see. what happened is she ate the fruit and became god like once she had the natural energy of the shinju she molded her physical and mental energies together to create chakra. she is the 10 tails though that much we know since thats what black zetsu said

      Yeah, I figured she was the ten tails as well.

      But what doesn't make sense to me is how can she be the progenitor of all chakra when the fruit itself IS chakra? Or was the fruit in fact the genetics of the Shinju itself - apart of it, if you will? Because I can only assume that she didn't get horns and a third eye until after she ate that chakra.

      And another thing that bugs me is that she could have had the Byakugan before eating the fruit. If that's the case, then what if there IS no progenitor of chakra? What if everyone was just hyping up the facts and making up lies? Because if there are a whole race of people that could make chakra, then Kaguya was just... lucky to get the power of a god. I

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    • Furthermore, let me ask this; in order to be a princess, you need a country to be a princess of.

      So we still don't know a whole lot.

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    • So what happened to the God tree?

      Kaguya ate the fruit, then became the tree that made the fruit?

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    • IAmNemii wrote: So what happened to the God tree?

      Kaguya ate the fruit, then became the tree that made the fruit?

      Yeah, apparently that's the case. So we're probably being lied to... agian.

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    • Chakra is the combination of two energies. Physical and Spiritual. then those two are molded together. the shinju is not sentient so it could not have spiritual energy and therefore could not have chakra they also say that the shinju as well as the 10 tails is made of natural energy. the new chapter states that kaguya is actually the source of chakra what this means is what happened is kaguya ate the fruit of the shinju(holy tree) it gave her god like energy when she molded her spiritual and physical energies together it created chakra but because of the natural energy her chakra was influenced to be far more powerful then it would be if the shinju's natural energy was not in her. also when showing pictures of her before she ate the fruit she already had the Horns(which are likely supposed to be rabbit ears) if you notice both hagoromo and hurama had them from birth, they both had the horns it showed when they were fighting the juubi(their mom) they both had the horns on their head so either she is an alien or some type of demon or deva of some sort

      also she could have had the Byakugan it could have simply been an her normal eyes maybe she had really good vision and when she created chakra it allowed her to enhance her visual prowess

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    • Will the real Akatsuki leader please stand up I repeat, will the real Akatsuki leader please stand up

      - PAIN: "I am akatsuki leader and founder."

      - Ubito: "No I AM the akatsuki leader and founder: I deceived you big time".

      - Madara : "No it's me, I was merely manipulating you".

      - Black Zetsu : "Actually, I was not your will, but was manipulating you too . I am the real akatsuki founder"

      Announcer: We got a problem here guys.

      Naruto's face on page 18 (site depending) "I'm getting too old for this shit..."

      She can open a Garganta? Really?

      And for Kaguya she was just funny in this chapter could not take you seriously. Well the close up of her face on page 19 was hybrid creepy/funny. Her crying and then trying to kill Naruto and Sasuke let along the whole of well everyone. That was just dumb.

      Can of reminds me of a child.

      Black Zetsu is Kaguya's son? Last week or the week before it was her will. So is Black Zetsu being called her son her actual 'son' or figurative meaning or a mistranslation. Thinking mistranslation has the site i read had more then a for grammar errors this week.

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    • Darkhunter-X wrote: Will the real Akatsuki leader please stand up I repeat, will the real Akatsuki leader please stand up

      - PAIN: "I am akatsuki leader and founder." - Ubito: "No I AM the akatsuki leader and founder: I deceived you big time". - Madara : "No it's me, I was merely manipulating you". - Black Zetsu : "Actually, I was not your will, but was manipulating you too . I am the real akatsuki founder"

      Announcer: We got a problem here guys.

      Naruto's face on page 18 (site depending) "I'm getting too old for this shit..."

      She can open a Garganta? Really?

      And for Kaguya she was just funny in this chapter not even scary. Well the close up of her face on page 19 was hybrid creepy/funny. Her crying and then trying to kill Naruto and Sasuke let along the whole of well everyone. That was just dumb.

      Black Zetsu is Kaguya's son? Last week or the week before it was her will. So is Black Zetsu being called her son her actual 'son' or figurative meaning or a mistranslation. Thinking mistranslation has the site i read had more then a for grammar errors this week.

      LOL.

      My theory is that kaguya created like a pocket dimension. and she was just opening the wall of the dimension up and traveling via the other side what i think is its a metaphorical term like in the bible god calls man his children. he created us so we are his children type of thing

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    • BZ is her child in a sense as "creation" not biologically.

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    • Elveonora wrote: BZ is her child in a sense as "creation" not biologically.

      That is exactly what i said.

      all though she could have created him by taking a piece of her flesh and creating him that way in that sense he may very well be her child genetically

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    • Okay

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    • This chapter was very confuzzling and what is that techniqe that Sasuke is talking about?

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    • From what I can tell, Chibaku Tensei

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    • Elveonora wrote: From what I can tell, Chibaku Tensei

      They said sealing jutsu doesn't mean it is chibaku tensei it just means its a sealing jutsu.


      chibaku tensei is just forming a moon around someone and then after word you place a sealing jutsu on it. but i am wandering how the hell will they get home if the seal her in the dimension they are in

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    • Chibaku Tensei is the seal. No additional seal was every mentioned when discussing how the Sage put the Demonic Statue in the moon.

      They probably aren't talking about Chibaku Tensei though, that would be boring. But the technique is a sealing one.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Chibaku Tensei is the seal. No additional seal was every mentioned when discussing how the Sage put the Demonic Statue in the moon.

      They probably aren't talking about Chibaku Tensei though, that would be boring. But the technique is a sealing one.

      It was said that when Madara gained the Rinnegan it allowed him to BREAK the seal on the moon. which allowed him to summon the demonic statue of the outer paths(gado mazou)so the chibaku tensei itself is not the seal the seal was placed on the moon

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Ten-Tails being Kaguya's freaky will, called it.

      Along with about half of the fan base... lol

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    • We'll just have to find out next chapter

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    • Black Zetsu is the Aizen of the Naruto series.

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    • Like a mastermind?

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    • I thought this chapter was horrendous! A constant motif throughout the series was that war catalyzes a vicious cycle of hatred which envelops everyone involved to the point where compromise seems out of the question. Though I disagreed with madara, I could understand how his circumstances gave birth to his vicious persona. In this chapter, Kishi sort of threw all of that away. Ultimatley, the driving goal of the main villain was simply to take back chakra, which she PASSED ON to her children.

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    • I still would like to know how exactly did Madara regain vision to his left eye when he used izanagi? I couldn't find any answers, and it kinda bugs me since izanagi blinds the eye, so how could he then regain vision to it? The only thing that could maybe restore vision to the eye would be Hashirama's cells, but that sounds far-fetched.

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    • Rinnegan beats any powers of the MS/Sharigan.

      Not to mention when he awakened the Rinnegan it was like he got a new eye.

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    • It was the right eye anyways which would be the left eye in the pic

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    • It said he used Izanagi, to switch his body with a Kage Bunshin, and at the same time made it to where it was the Kage Bunshin who used Izanagi and not his actual self... plus he has EMS so maybe it truly is eternal, if used like Madara used it.

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    • I hope we get to learn more about Hamura.

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    • Rias Gremory wrote: It was the right eye anyways which would be the left eye in the pic

      My bad.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: It said he used Izanagi, to switch his body with a Kage Bunshin, and at the same time made it to where it was the Kage Bunshin who used Izanagi and not his actual self... plus he has EMS so maybe it truly is eternal, if used like Madara used it.

      Well, i still think that it would deprave sight from that right eye, but maybe the EMS could be the answer(just maybe).

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    • And also i don't think that explains why he still had both mangekyo visibly present when he was resurrected, unless the rinnegan restores other dojutsu, otherwise bah humbug.

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    • So what's the verdict on Black Zetsu? Still Kaguya's "Will" (which is going to ask the question.. just what is this will materialization actually? Is it really Kaguya or could that blackness or whoever be another person)? Hamura? Or is it possibly a third son? He said that, according to MangaStream's localization, Kaguya was sealed by "us, her own sons, hands". So Black Zetsu, whoever he is, actually helped seal Kaguya?

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    • ... yes, still Kaguya's will. BZ considers himself to be her son. And no, he was created the moment Hagoromo and Hamura were about to seal her.

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    • What jutsu was Kaguya sealed with?

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    • Chibaku Tensei + some seal placed on top of it.

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    • Now who said?

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    • Without the actual Japanese script or Viz's professional translation, there's really no way to confirm any of it. I'm always very hesitant to take MangaStream's translations at face value because they tend to take a lot of liberties with their scripts. I'm especially dubious of their translation in this chapter, since they're kind of all over the place and I'm pretty sure some of it is wrong because it doesn't make sense. Mangapanda's English isn't great, but they're almost always closer to the actual meaning of the Japanese text.

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    • I always read both. Usually, where one of them makes mistake, the other gets correctly.

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    • Where is the RAW posted at?

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    • Rias Gremory wrote: Where is the RAW posted at?

      You can find it yourself, we don't permit links to such sites here.

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    • I can't find it and the Infinite Tsukuyomi Arc needs updated

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    • This entire chapter was just one big giant mind fuck to be honest, so much of the story has changed in such a short time.

      What I want to know is what led her children to develop a technique to defy their Mother? They all desired the world to be at piece, granted Kaguya, her sons and her grandsons shared varied views on how to attain peace. I think Kaguya's way was somewhat agreeable, although most wouldn't wish to be sleeping their entire life in a dreamland, is it better to be awake and cast endless bloodshed?

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    • Definitely mixed about this chapter for me personally. It was cool seeing the backstory, but there was almost too much information this chapter, and I had to read it multiple times in order to fully understand it.

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    • It had me very confuzzled cause of Zetsu

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    • Snowlover123 wrote: Definitely mixed about this chapter for me personally. It was cool seeing the backstory, but there was almost too much information this chapter, and I had to read it multiple times in order to fully understand it.

      Same here, to much information changed in a single chapter, usually Kishi likes to string things out in terms of stories and information.

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    • I'm like what the fuck is going on!? The story didn't make sense

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    • Rias Gremory wrote: I'm like what the fuck is going on!? The story didn't make sense

      Okay Rias, this is a basic summary of what is going on.

      In the series, Chakra was it's own separate energy. But people said Chakra was a mix of physical energy & spiritual energy.....

      But, they only thought that way because from the moment they were born, their spirit & physical energy was already saturated with Chakra.

      It being always mixed from as far back as their history goes, thus, almost nobody knew that chakra was actually a separate energy.

      So the explanation of what chakra was in the beginning of the series is technically wrong (though the people can't be blamed cause their spirit & physical energy was always mixed with chakra).....

      So nobody in the Naruto-verse had pure mental/spirit energy or physical/life energy, it was always mixed with the energy called chakra & the Shinju is a massive tree mixed with this energy called chakra along with a huge amount of natural energy.

      Humans in their selfishness basically tried to horde this chakra energy for themselves and connected it with their physical & spiritual energies, creating the chakra known today.

      Kaguya's 2 children received part of her powers. Hamura had her Byakugan to see everything, while Hagoromo got the Rinnegan.

      Hagoromo's children in turn got half of his Rinnegan power. Asura got the life force and physical energy of the Rinnegan while Indra got the Ocular power and spirit energy or the Rinnegan (the Ocular and spiritual half of the Rinnegan's power was later dubbed the Sharingan).

      Madara was one of Indra's descendants who has inherited Indra's power. Madara at some point, through the manipulation of Black Zetsu, to take Hashirama's DNA to complete his half of the Rinnegan (aka Sharingan) to make it into the complete Rinnegan.

      Black Zetsu was a part of Kaguya's will that watched the world, and he manipulated Madara into using the Infinite Tsukuyomi, making him believe that he created the White Zetsu's which were actually people who were sealed in the Gedo Mazo under the previous Infinite Tsukuyomi. Then, Madara was tricked into believing that he created Black Zetsu.

      Now Kaguya wants that energy called chakra back, not the people's life and spirit energies, but her powers.

      Apparently, she created the Jubi to retrieve the energy called chakra, so she could go back to ruling the world. Watching and controlling everyone with her Byakugan & Rinnegan.

      It's missing somethings, but that is basically what is going on in the story.

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    • wat

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    • But Kaguya is hot

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    • Elveonora wrote: wat

      I just shortened what was going on and explained what happened in the last many chapters...... lots of stuff was explained so even a short version is pretty long, even after skipping a lot of points...

      What I summarized was from what we learned from Naruto & Sasuke meeting the So6p till the latest chapter

      Rias Gremory wrote: But Kaguya is hot

      But those eyes are creepy as hell

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    • Naruto is saying somethnig about Sasuke Shunshin no Jutsu. Could it be that Sasuke is using the same jutsu as Shisui?

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    • DrKret wrote: Naruto is saying somethnig about Sasuke Shunshin no Jutsu. Could it be that Sasuke is using the same jutsu as Shisui?

      Shisui just used A regular Shunshin, he was just really skilled at using the regular shunshin..... it seems that "shunshin" is used to describe other kinds of quick movement or teleportations rather than just the normal shunshin (or maybe Naruto doesn't exactly know what it is)

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    • Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      So do I, all we see is his eyes, so we don't know for certain whether he is the Hyuuga's ancestor. If it took both to seal her, and Hagoromo developed Ninshuu, what's to keep Hamura from developing sealing techniques, such as the Dead Demon Consuming Seal. We know that the Senju and Uzumaki clans are Distant relatives and got along very well, that is reason enough for me to believe that Ashura may have well gotten along with his uncle, UNCLE HAM, HAHAHAHAHA

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    • The juubi, he is the reaper death seal!

      Look at page 16, look at his mouth!

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      So do I, all we see is his eyes, so we don't know for certain whether he is the Hyuuga's ancestor. If it took both to seal her, and Hagoromo developed Ninshuu, what's to keep Hamura from developing sealing techniques, such as the Dead Demon Consuming Seal. We know that the Senju and Uzumaki clans are Distant relatives and got along very well, that is reason enough for me to believe that Ashura may have well gotten along with his uncle, UNCLE HAM, HAHAHAHAHA

      This delusion persists despite the fact that it has already been proven by canon to be wrong. Black Zetsu specifically stresses in this chapter that only the descendants of Asura and Indra became transmigrants. Naruto being a transmigrant makes him a descendant of Asura, meaning that the Uzumaki clan, which he is a member of, is a descendant of Hagoromo. Where people come up with the insane idea that the Uzumaki belong to Hamura's bloodline is beyond me. Hell, Hagoromo even has the Uzumaki's trademark red hair.

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    • Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

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    • Mizerx wrote: Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

      Why would Hamura, who helped his brother seal away Kaguya, suddenly turn back and then try to free her?

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    • Mizerx wrote: Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

      Hagoromo=White Zetsu

      Hamura=Black Zetsu

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      Mizerx wrote: Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

      Hagoromo=White Zetsu

      Hamura=Black Zetsu

      *jumps off a cliff*

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    • I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

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    • KaizokuJaeger wrote: I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

      You never know, they might have just been created...

      or maybe her lover died before she ate the fruit (causes being war) & she ate the fruit while pregnant with twins

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote:

      Mizerx wrote: Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

      Hagoromo=White Zetsu

      Hamura=Black Zetsu

      • jumps off a cliff*
      • Saves Ten Tailed Fox with Flying thunder god techinque
      • Tosses Spyrocks into the Kamui realm under strong genjutsu.

      Wrong person to off man.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      KaizokuJaeger wrote: I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

      You never know, they might have just been created...

      or maybe her lover died before she ate the fruit (causes being war) & she ate the fruit while pregnant with twins

      i always thought it was like a high priest who got lucky ... but yeah i guess we would never know ..

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    • KaizokuJaeger wrote: I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

      Little advice from an adult guy. Bedding and especially knocking up a powerful breath taking woman makes your ego go though the roof and causes you to beat on your chest more then King Kong seeing beautiful women in a field of giant bananas.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Everreddie wrote: Shouldn't Hamura be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan? Since the Uzumaki clan are distant blood relatives of the Senju clan (like cousins), wouldn't it make sense for Hamura to be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan?

      No. That wouldn't even make them distant cousins. This doesn't work like actual family genetics, where your brother's descendants become your cousins. The Uzumaki are directly related to the Senju (meaning there was likely a fork-off in Asura's bloodline), making them Hagoromo's descendants.

      Also, Hagoromo had the Uzumaki's trademark red hair and astonishing vitality.

      But what if Hamura's descendants (if he had any) inter-bred with the Senju to create the Uzumaki?

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    • I think Hamura's kids were the creator of the Hyuga clan. Which would mess everything up in Naruto in my opinion because the Hyuga clan was inferior to the Uchiha and Senju.

      If the Hyuga was descended from Hamura then they should have more power and potential than the fodder they currently have.

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    • ElvinWindSword wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Everreddie wrote: Shouldn't Hamura be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan? Since the Uzumaki clan are distant blood relatives of the Senju clan (like cousins), wouldn't it make sense for Hamura to be the ancestor of the Uzumaki clan?

      No. That wouldn't even make them distant cousins. This doesn't work like actual family genetics, where your brother's descendants become your cousins. The Uzumaki are directly related to the Senju (meaning there was likely a fork-off in Asura's bloodline), making them Hagoromo's descendants.

      Also, Hagoromo had the Uzumaki's trademark red hair and astonishing vitality.

      But what if Hamura's descendants (if he had any) inter-bred with the Senju to create the Uzumaki?

      When Naruto marries Hinata (if he ever does) then that will be the case. As of now, no. The Uzumaki are Hagoromo's descendants. These crazed theories need to stop. There is literal manga proof that the Uzumaki are Hagoromo's descendants, and, one could argue, as the earliest being (other than his mother), to have Byakugan, Hamura is that of the Hyuga's.

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    • I am not disagreeing with you mate but I was just speculating to see what made the Uzumaki's different than the Senjus. But you are right there is no definite proof that the the Hyuga (Hamura's descendants) had children with the Senju to make Prehistoric Narutos (sorry couldn't help myself).

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    • KaizokuJaeger wrote: I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

      Probably the Ramen guy's ancestor

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    • Much like how the Rinnegan got diluded (weakened) into producing the weakened Sharingan of Indra, probabaly the original Byakugan (Hamura's) got weakened to produce the Hyuga clan's byakugan.

      Since Neji was reported to have the strongest Byakugan of his generation in the clan, it is likely he had a small amount of Hamura's chakra in him.

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    • IF the some uzumakis DID marry descendants of hamura's then the uzumaki clan would STILL be descendants of hagoromo but with some hamura blood added. This DOES NOT make the uzumaki clan descendants of hamura all of a sudden and it never will. it's like if a black man from let's say kenya moves to japan and marries into a japanese clan (do they still have clans?). his descendants then continue to live in japan marrying japanese people (duh). the japanese clan doesn't all of a sudden become kenyans (LOL). they're still of japanese descent but with some among them having a black ancestor somewhere along the line.

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    • But there is no proof that the Uzumaki's have interbreed with Hamura's decent, so it's just speculation. I think 10tailed fox is just trying to make sure that the fan speculation isn't mixed with canon

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    • ElvinWindSword wrote: Much like how the Rinnegan got diluded (weakened) into producing the weakened Sharingan of Indra, probabaly the original Byakugan (Hamura's) got weakened to produce the Hyuga clan's byakugan.

      Since Neji was reported to have the strongest Byakugan of his generation in the clan, it is likely he had a small amount of Hamura's chakra in him.

      Okay, 1st off, it was never stated that Hamura's Byakugan was better than the average Hyuga's

      2nd, it's more like the Sharingan is just a part of the Rinnegan. It wasn't "diluted", it was split. The power of both of his children produces the Rinnegan. The Sharingan is just a part of the power.

      3rd, It was more Neji's skill with the Byakugan and his training, though it is a bit stronger than average. But nothing shows that he received his ancestors chakra. He could just be better, it doesn't automatically mean that he received his ancestor's power. After all, Kakashi was able to use the Sharingan better than many Uchiha. It's more about the individual rather than it just being their ancestors.

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    • Yes I know there isn't any proof. That's why I added the "if" in the very beginning. The point was merely to show that even if they did interbreed, it still wouldn't make them descendants of hamura.

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    • Darkhunter-X wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote:

      Mizerx wrote: Wait, what if Hamura is Zetsu?

      Hagoromo=White Zetsu

      Hamura=Black Zetsu

      • jumps off a cliff*
      • Saves Ten Tailed Fox with Flying thunder god techinque
      • Tosses Spyrocks into the Kamui realm under strong genjutsu.

      Wrong person to off man.

      • Facepalm*, Anyway folks this chapter is awesome, And I know the Juubi the reaper death seal, I know it!
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    • Sasuke's gonna use the Reaper Death Seal?

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    • About the chapter, how did Black Zetsu's plan go so smoothly, i mean

      Hagoromo wasn't able to sense BZ's presence? BZ's chakra is pretty ominous, it seems starnge that someone like Hagoromo didn't even notice it

      Hashirama had actually noticed Black Zetsu, how come a guy who is the hokage didn't even decide to look further into a mysterious figure who was present on one of the most chaotic battlefields?


      I get it that Madara placed the Izanagi seal in his eye to activate after a few days it makes sense, since the guy must have thought of something when he bit his beloved Hashirama's arm off :p, he knew he had to show this world that he was indeed dead. But, how did he know that no shinobi will be present when his seal gets activated? What if shinobi had tried to remove his eyes to study his body piece by piece- Orochimaru style?

      Also, that shadow clone thing seems rather stupid, we know the shadow clone disappears when its damaged, the guy who must have stolen the body (which in some translation is said to be Tobirama) didnt even notice that the body he was cutting and slashing was a shadow clone?

      And, how did the clone remain dead when it was being researched upon? It must have screamed when being cut cause i have never seen someone being able to create a dead clone

      Plus. why is WZ referred to by BZ as Kaguya's army? What the heck she needed an army for anyway?


      Also, has there been any manga chapter that has explained how did Itachi get the Totsuka blade and the Sword of Kusanagi?

      I see we got some answers, but somethings have been left unanswered still

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    • Look at the Juubis mouth on page 16 of Naruto chapter 681, and look at the reapers mouth when Minato sacrificed himself against Kurama.

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    • @Spyrock, you should stop taking whichever drugs you take this very instant.

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    • And how did Kaguya get behind Sasuke and Naruto? Cause we never seen her teleport

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    • Rias Gremory wrote: And how did Kaguya get behind Sasuke and Naruto? Cause we never seen her teleport

      good point...weren't space time techniques part of of ninjutsu? kaguya doesn't even know ninshuu, let alone ninjutsu

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    • Her abilities aren't known yet so we dunno what trick she has up her sleeve and where is the discussion for episode 366?

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    • To the people bashing my Hamura being Zetsu theory: We do not know what happened to Hamura, and if he was as strong as Hagoromo pre-jinchuuriki then he should've been known worldwide too, but nobody knew of him. What could've happened is that Kaguya maybe transformed him or something to become Zetsu and her will, that may also be the true reason of why Zetsu calls her mother -- Kishimoto always makes plottwists.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Spyrock, you should stop taking whichever drugs you take this very instant.

      darn it Elveonora, How many times do I have to tell that Im being serious here, Im not trying to spam, Im really being honest here, there is something about that seal puts me to great suspension that that monster is the only one who can defeat her, he is connected to her is some way.

      Basically the reaper/Juubi is the Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta of the Naruto series.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: @Spyrock, you should stop taking whichever drugs you take this very instant.

      darn it Elveonora, How many times do I have to tell that Im being serious here, Im not trying to spam, Im really being honest here, there is something about that seal puts me to great suspension that that monster is the only one who can defeat her, he is connected to her is some way.

      Basically the reaper/Juubi is the Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta of the Naruto series.

      Or you could just be reading too much into it and the illustrations just HAPPEN to look similar...

      I'm pretty sure the reaper has no connection to the Ten Tails. And even if it DID, I'm sure it wont be relevant to Kaguya being defeated. You have a nice theory, but it's very unlikely.

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      • Sigh* Guess we have to wait.
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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      • Sigh* Guess we have to wait.

      For right now it seems as though Kaguya will be sealed by Naruto and Sasuke. If that fails, who knows? For right now though, everything is speculation. Not saying your theory won't happen, but as you said, we have to wait.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Spyrock, you should stop taking whichever drugs you take this very instant.

      For once, I completely agree with this statement. See man, I have your back... sometimes >.>

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    • Even Im trying to be serious people still take me for a joke, I got a feeling when I start writing my storys that you guys are gonna treat me worse than Kishimoto.

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    • Spyrocks wrote: Even Im trying to be serious people still take me for a joke, I got a feeling when I start writing my storys that you guys are gonna treat me worse than Kishimoto.

      How can you expect to be taken seriously when you claim the Shiki Fuin is the Ten-Tails? That's not even a remotely plausible theory. Its almost as bogus as the "Black Zetsu is Hamura" theory.

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    • Then why does he have a sword on his mouth just like the Juubi Statue, why does he look similar to Kagaya?

      Why is the ability on Chapter 681 page 16 similar to what the Reaper Death Seal can do.

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    • Spyrocks wrote: Then why does he have a sword on his mouth just like the Juubi Statue, why does he look similar to Kagaya?

      Why is the ability on Chapter 681 page 16 similar to what the Reaper Death Seal can do.

      1. He doesn't have a sword in his mouth. He has a bit in his mouth, which is common to put in animals to keep from, you know, biting you. Its a restraining method.
      2. Because Kishimoto drew them similarly? Not to mention the Shiki Fuin is a man, and, Kaguya is (pretty big distinction here) a woman.
      3. That isn't the ability of the Ten-Tails. The seal being talked about there is the one used by Hagoromo and Hamura.
      4. The Reaper Death Seal is, as stated by Orochimaru, an Uzumaki clan technique. The Uzumaki clan wouldn't exist for a couple centuries after the Ten-Tails was sealed away so it is literally impossible for the Sage and his brother to have used the same technique on the beast.

      Questions?

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote: Then why does he have a sword on his mouth just like the Juubi Statue, why does he look similar to Kagaya?

      Why is the ability on Chapter 681 page 16 similar to what the Reaper Death Seal can do.

      1. He doesn't have a sword in his mouth. He has a bit in his mouth, which is common to put in animals to keep from, you know, biting you. Its a restraining method.
      2. Because Kishimoto drew them similarly? Not to mention the Shiki Fuin is a man, and, Kaguya is (pretty big distinction here) a woman.
      3. That isn't the ability of the Ten-Tails. The seal being talked about there is the one used by Hagoromo and Hamura.
      4. The Reaper Death Seal is, as stated by Orochimaru, an Uzumaki clan technique. The Uzumaki clan wouldn't exist for a couple centuries after the Ten-Tails was sealed away so it is literally impossible for the Sage and his brother to have used the same technique on the beast.

      Questions?

      Unless they have discovered it.

      Doing something that was forbidden for them to do.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote: Then why does he have a sword on his mouth just like the Juubi Statue, why does he look similar to Kagaya?

      Why is the ability on Chapter 681 page 16 similar to what the Reaper Death Seal can do.

      1. He doesn't have a sword in his mouth. He has a bit in his mouth, which is common to put in animals to keep from, you know, biting you. Its a restraining method.
      2. Because Kishimoto drew them similarly? Not to mention the Shiki Fuin is a man, and, Kaguya is (pretty big distinction here) a woman.
      3. That isn't the ability of the Ten-Tails. The seal being talked about there is the one used by Hagoromo and Hamura.
      4. The Reaper Death Seal is, as stated by Orochimaru, an Uzumaki clan technique. The Uzumaki clan wouldn't exist for a couple centuries after the Ten-Tails was sealed away so it is literally impossible for the Sage and his brother to have used the same technique on the beast.

      Questions?

      Unless they have discovered it.

      Doing something that was forbidden for them to do.

      Again with the drugs.

      Once more, so that you can truly comprehend this, they discovered nothing. Madara brought the Gedo Mazo back to Earth and this was well after the Uzumaki clan had been destroyed. The Shiki Fuin is not the Ten-Tails and it is not Kaguya.

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    • If your right what you say, then I guess Shiki Fuin is really an inspiration design for Kaguya, sense he looks a lot like her.

      I don't know, Im having a lot of depression at my place., so Im not in the mood to talk right now.

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    • Mizerx wrote: To the people bashing my Hamura being Zetsu theory: We do not know what happened to Hamura, and if he was as strong as Hagoromo pre-jinchuuriki then he should've been known worldwide too, but nobody knew of him. What could've happened is that Kaguya maybe transformed him or something to become Zetsu and her will, that may also be the true reason of why Zetsu calls her mother -- Kishimoto always makes plottwists.

      Your theory is getting bashed because its impossible.

      Your logic:

      1. Hagoromo and Hamura worked together to seal their mother and the Ten-Tails (manga fact).
      2. Hamura, who worked the seal his mother away, then becomes Black Zetsu, who spends the next couple of centuries trying to revive her.

      Logic.

      Kishi's logic:

      1. Hagoromo and Hamura worked together to seal their mother and the Ten-Tails (manga fact).
      2. Before they could do so, Kaguya created a manifestation of her will, which became Black Zetsu. (manga fact)
      3. Black Zetsu then went on to manipulate events in order to bring about Kaguya's rebirth. (manga fact)
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    • As I said before Im really feeling awful right now, but all Im gonna is that its strange about what happened to Hamura at the end, did the Juubi kill him, what the heck happened?

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    • Spyrocks wrote: As I said before Im really feeling awful right now, but all Im gonna is that its strange about what happened to Hamura at the end, did the Juubi kill him, what the heck happened?

      We don't know.

      Kishimoto never told us and I am not in the business of divination so we may never know.

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    • Where exactly does it state that Transmigrants have to be direct decendants of one of the brothers, they are blood relatives. Since we've learned of the two brothers, we've only heard of the two offspring of one of them, Hagoroma. We have yet to learn what became of the other brother and his kin. We are only speculating from the information given. There are many clans in Konaha, not directly related to any Senju, but we do know that the Uzumaki's and the Senju are related, by what thread we do not know, we only know that they're DISTANT RELATIVES. That has clearly been stated since we've learned of the struggle between the Senju and Uchiha. We have yet to learn of anything regarding Uzushiokagure and it's destruction, I think we will learn so enough, though. Most people just assume since Hamura's eyes are white that he has the Byakugan, we won't know til Kishi explains it won't we.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote: Then why does he have a sword on his mouth just like the Juubi Statue, why does he look similar to Kagaya?

      Why is the ability on Chapter 681 page 16 similar to what the Reaper Death Seal can do.

      1. He doesn't have a sword in his mouth. He has a bit in his mouth, which is common to put in animals to keep from, you know, biting you. Its a restraining method.
      2. Because Kishimoto drew them similarly? Not to mention the Shiki Fuin is a man, and, Kaguya is (pretty big distinction here) a woman.
      3. That isn't the ability of the Ten-Tails. The seal being talked about there is the one used by Hagoromo and Hamura.
      4. The Reaper Death Seal is, as stated by Orochimaru, an Uzumaki clan technique. The Uzumaki clan wouldn't exist for a couple centuries after the Ten-Tails was sealed away so it is literally impossible for the Sage and his brother to have used the same technique on the beast.

      Questions?

      How do you know the Uzumaki clan wouldn't have existed for a couple of centuries, were you sitting right next to Kishi when he was coming up with ideas and concepts. Like I stated in another post, we won't know until the Kishi goes into more detail about Hamura and the Uzumaki clan. Right now everything we're speculating about has not come to fruition because the chapters aren't out yet

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    • Rias Gremory wrote: And how did Kaguya get behind Sasuke and Naruto? Cause we never seen her teleport

      I think it was sort of like Obito can slip part of his body into another dimension, she just opened up a portal and slipped through it.

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    • Please stop deluding yourself.

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    • Um, since we seem to have a bunch of Kishi assistants, answer me this question, did Ashura and Indra even know their Uncle Hamura? Also, in your venacular what are distant blood relatives if not cousins?

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    • Taken from this very Narutopedia, The Senju and Uzumaki clans are distant blood relatives whom they retained strong connections. What does this mean?

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote: Um, since we seem to have a bunch of Kishi assistants, answer me this question, did Ashura and Indra even know their Uncle Hamura? Also, in your venacular what are distant blood relatives if not cousins?

      1. Stop the snarky sarcasm. Just because you're too dense to comprehend what has already been written doesn't make us "Kishi assistants".
      2. Kaguya knew Asura and Indra, and considering Hamura and Hagoromo sealed her, then yes, Hamura likely knew his nephews.
      3. It is already established that the Senju and the Uzumaki are merely related. They are not "cousin" clans, they are not "distantly related". They're just related. But we know that they are somewhat closely related as Nagato, an Uzumaki, was said to have "Senju powers".
      4. Lastly, Black Zetsu specifically stated that only the descendants of Asura and Indra became transmigrants, making Naruto, a member of the Uzumaki clan, and by extension, his clan, descendants of Hagoromo.

      Good luck with your whackjob theories elsewhere.

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    • Not sure why do people want Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants.

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    • Especially since it isn't even remotely plausible.

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    • Snarky sarcasm is my trademark, hahahahaha, I'm an A-hole by nature and also by creed, lmao. On to other things, please, oh please, read the wiki articles on the Senju and the Uzumaki clans, also take a look at Chapter 500, page 3, it clearly states distant blood relatives.

      Plus like I stated in another post, WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL IT IS EXPLAINED.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      merged with above post.
      10:14, June 22, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Lexstarbuck wrote: Um, since we seem to have a bunch of Kishi assistants, answer me this question, did Ashura and Indra even know their Uncle Hamura? Also, in your venacular what are distant blood relatives if not cousins?

      1. Stop the snarky sarcasm. Just because you're too dense to comprehend what has already been written doesn't make us "Kishi assistants".
      2. Kaguya knew Asura and Indra, and considering Hamura and Hagoromo sealed her, then yes, Hamura likely knew his nephews.
      3. It is already established that the Senju and the Uzumaki are merely related. They are not "cousin" clans, they are not "distantly related". They're just related. But we know that they are somewhat closely related as Nagato, an Uzumaki, was said to have "Senju powers".
      4. Lastly, Black Zetsu specifically stated that only the descendants of Asura and Indra became transmigrants, making Naruto, a member of the Uzumaki clan, and by extension, his clan, descendants of Hagoromo.

      Good luck with your whackjob theories elsewhere.

      Snarky sarcasm is my trademark, hahahahaha, I'm an A-hole by nature and also by creed, lmao. On to other things, please, oh please, read the wiki articles on the Senju and the Uzumaki clans, also take a look at Chapter 500, page 3, it clearly states distant blood relatives.

      Plus like I stated in another post, WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL IT IS EXPLAINED.

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Lexstarbuck wrote: Um, since we seem to have a bunch of Kishi assistants, answer me this question, did Ashura and Indra even know their Uncle Hamura? Also, in your venacular what are distant blood relatives if not cousins?

      1. Stop the snarky sarcasm. Just because you're too dense to comprehend what has already been written doesn't make us "Kishi assistants".
      2. Kaguya knew Asura and Indra, and considering Hamura and Hagoromo sealed her, then yes, Hamura likely knew his nephews.
      3. It is already established that the Senju and the Uzumaki are merely related. They are not "cousin" clans, they are not "distantly related". They're just related. But we know that they are somewhat closely related as Nagato, an Uzumaki, was said to have "Senju powers".
      4. Lastly, Black Zetsu specifically stated that only the descendants of Asura and Indra became transmigrants, making Naruto, a member of the Uzumaki clan, and by extension, his clan, descendants of Hagoromo.

      Good luck with your whackjob theories elsewhere.

      Snarky sarcasm is my trademark, hahahahaha, I'm an A-hole by nature and also by creed, lmao. On to other things, please, oh please, read the wiki articles on the Senju and the Uzumaki clans, also take a look at Chapter 500, page 3, it clearly states distant blood relatives.

      *sigh*

      From Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's page:

      "As time passed, Hagoromo ultimately faded into legend. His bloodline was divided into the descendants of his two children, which would eventually form the Senju clan — and through distant relations, the Uzumaki clan — and the Uchiha clan."

      Translation: We know. You're just wrong. Period.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: So... So much for everyone who claimed the Shinju is the progenitor of all Chakra.

      Gotta love Kishi. Curve balls left and right. I personally loved this chapter. Some wonderful clarification.

      OH FVCK! This is such an intense chapter! Should have figured it out that sealing of Ten Tails = sealing of Kaguya. Best chapter ever!

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    • Since I am sorta dense, bwahahahahaha, in chapter 670 pages 13-14, Hagoroma says,"to repent for our mother's sins, my brother and I fought against the Juubi, that was the incarnation of the Holy Tree and sealed it inside us. The Holy Tree struggle to get back the Chakra fruit that was stolen from it". Now here's where it gets a little more complicated for the uninitiated. In Hagorama's own words, 'later on, I also had two children." BOOM PING PING, LMAO. So how did they know their grandmother? We now know what Hagoroma did not explain, that their mother was a part of the Holy Tree/Juubi. A holy trinity so to speak. So if I'm so dense, why did I take the time to reread, specific chapters, to get a clearer picture of what I was talking about. I don't think you did the same thing, because if you did, we surely would not be having this conversation. BTW, I was bored as hell til now, Thanx. That was just plain ole sarcasm, nothing SNARKY about that. Glad I found you guys, hahahaha

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    • 'cept you missed the fact that Black Zetsu said in this chapter that Hagoromo knew nothing about Kaguya's relation to the Ten-Tails, so that statement is untruthful. Also, in recent chapters, Kaguya specifically recalls her grandson's names and their chakra. Kinda hard for a dead woman to do.

      Oh yes, you're very perceptive.

      (But yes, oh so very dense.)

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    • Elveonora wrote: Not sure why do people want Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants.

      Because, it is only speculation. We do not know what is going on in Kishi's head. We just try to guess the outcome of certain plotlines. Nobody can truly say what will happen next. Did any of us see Kaguya reappearing, I don't think so. Did we not think that the Sage of the Six Paths knew the absolute truth, yes we did. It took Black Zetsu to fill in the gaps. See I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, because all I have to do use this wikia as a reference page and go back and reread. I don't pretend to know everything like some do. What I don't know, I research, can't say the same for everyone.

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Not sure why do people want Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants.

      I don't pretend to know everything like some do.

      No, you just ignore fact, and delude yourself royally. A worse offense, I might add.

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Not sure why do people want Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants.

      Because, it is only speculation. We do not know what is going on in Kishi's head. We just try to guess the outcome of certain plotlines. Nobody can truly say what will happen next. Did any of us see Kaguya reappearing, I don't think so. Did we not think that the Sage of the Six Paths knew the absolute truth, yes we did. It took Black Zetsu to fill in the gaps. See I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, because all I have to do use this wikia as a reference page and go back and reread. I don't pretend to know everything like some do. What I don't know, I research, can't say the same for everyone.

      Plus Hamura and the Uzumaki clans are the most mysterious in all of the Narutoverse. Very little information given. The Sage only stated that he and his brother sealed the Juubi within themselves, he never said what happened to his brother. He pretty much only focused the story on himself and his offspring. And the destruction of Uzushio was never expounded upon, so we don't know much about the village that they were from, only that they were experts at fuinjutsu and considered a threat to various shinobi villages. We don't know of their origin, nor how they are DISTANT BLOOD RELATIVES, think I'm lying or fibbing, just go back to chapter 500 page 3, and let Kushina explain it.

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Not sure why do people want Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants.

      Because, it is only speculation. We do not know what is going on in Kishi's head. We just try to guess the outcome of certain plotlines. Nobody can truly say what will happen next. Did any of us see Kaguya reappearing, I don't think so. Did we not think that the Sage of the Six Paths knew the absolute truth, yes we did. It took Black Zetsu to fill in the gaps. See I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, because all I have to do use this wikia as a reference page and go back and reread. I don't pretend to know everything like some do. What I don't know, I research, can't say the same for everyone.

      Plus Hamura and the Uzumaki clans are the most mysterious in all of the Narutoverse. Very little information given. The Sage only stated that he and his brother sealed the Juubi within themselves, he never said what happened to his brother. He pretty much only focused the story on himself and his offspring. And the destruction of Uzushio was never expounded upon, so we don't know much about the village that they were from, only that they were experts at fuinjutsu and considered a threat to various shinobi villages. We don't know of their origin, nor how they are DISTANT BLOOD RELATIVES, think I'm lying or fibbing, just go back to chapter 500 page 3, and let Kushina explain it.

      You're hopeless and I'm done.

      Not as though your words change the facts; which are that the Uzumaki clan are descendants of Hagoromo. :)

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    • Uzumaki can be distant blood relative to the Senju while being a direct offshot of them, if there have been many generation since the split.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling
      18:04, June 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote:

      Lexstarbuck wrote: Um, since we seem to have a bunch of Kishi assistants, answer me this question, did Ashura and Indra even know their Uncle Hamura? Also, in your venacular what are distant blood relatives if not cousins?

      1. Stop the snarky sarcasm. Just because you're too dense to comprehend what has already been written doesn't make us "Kishi assistants".
      2. Kaguya knew Asura and Indra, and considering Hamura and Hagoromo sealed her, then yes, Hamura likely knew his nephews.
      3. It is already established that the Senju and the Uzumaki are merely related. They are not "cousin" clans, they are not "distantly related". They're just related. But we know that they are somewhat closely related as Nagato, an Uzumaki, was said to have "Senju powers".
      4. Lastly, Black Zetsu specifically stated that only the descendants of Asura and Indra became transmigrants, making Naruto, a member of the Uzumaki clan, and by extension, his clan, descendants of Hagoromo.

      Good luck with your whackjob theories elsewhere.

      Snarky sarcasm is my trademark, hahahahaha, I'm an A-hole by nature and also by creed, lmao. On to other things, please, oh please, read the wiki articles on the Senju and the Uzumaki clans, also take a look at Chapter 500, page 3, it clearly states distant blood relatives.

      *sigh*

      From Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's page:

      "As time passed, Hagoromo ultimately faded into legend. His bloodline was divided into the descendants of his two children, which would eventually form the Senju clan — and through distant relations, the Uzumaki clan — and the Uchiha clan."

      Translation: We know. You're just wrong. Period.

      Thank you for making my point, — and through distant relations, the Uzumaki clan-. Could distant relations be interpreted, my brothers kin? BTW, did you go back and read chapter 500 or 670, and the related pages, not the wikipedia page, which is only used to reference the Manga and Anime. Instead of giving me crap, use your time more wisely,young man. hahahahahaa. Now that was snarky

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    • Hopeless is not rereading the chapters, but using this wikia as fact and not the manga, which I am using. I've read as much as you, but as I keep stating KISHI JR we won't know until future chapters, be done because your dumb.

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    • @lexstar

      I fail to see why it's so hard for you to comprehend that you're just flat out wrong. Just stop already. The recent chapter proves you wrong so stop making a fool of yourself. Given the info in this chapter, distant relative = senju offshoot. How hard is that to figure out? Seriously...

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    • He can't read as well as he tells us he can. Otherwise he, like the rest of us, would know all of this.

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    • 11zeeshha wrote: @lexstar

      I fail to see why it's so hard for you to comprehend that you're just flat out wrong. Just stop already. The recent chapter proves you wrong so stop making a fool of yourself. Given the info in this chapter, distant relative = senju offshoot. How hard is that to figure out? Seriously...

      Can't state this enough, we'll just have to see. BTW, how many of you have been totally wrong and came back to admit it. I'll admit it, when it's properly explained. And that's when we learn more of Hamura, and not Hagoroma. That is the only way you'll convince me, people. I consider my uncles and cousins family, distant or otherwise. As Black Zetsu stated, there was alot that Hagoramo did not know. So if the Sage didn't know, how do you guys know so much.

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    • Plus why are you guys getting so pissed, it's all speculation of future chapters to come, just let Kishi explain a little more in detail. Did I interrupt a lil circle jerk or something, I'm new to this discussion board, is this my lil iniation, to the Naruto Jerkers Club. I actually like all the chapters from the very beginning, I'm not one to complain about how Kishi is writing Naruto, because I know sooner or later it will be explained. I bet most of you think just because you saw a picture of Hamura eyes that he had the Byukagan, when it hasn't been said, that he did.

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    • The only speculation is yours.

      The rest of us are simply dismissing your bullocks.

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    • Not sure if trolling, ignorance of just plain old delusion. Black Zetsu who pretty much is history itself in the very latest chapter stated that that Ashura "incarnates" originate within the Senju, therefore Uzumaki branch from the Senju. It's impossible for the Uzumaki to be Hamura's descendants. Hamura might have had his very own sons or even daughters, but Uzumaki weren't amongst them, since Uzumaki are an offshot of Senju, which are Ashura's descendants who is Hagoromo's.

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      11zeeshha wrote: @lexstar

      I fail to see why it's so hard for you to comprehend that you're just flat out wrong. Just stop already. The recent chapter proves you wrong so stop making a fool of yourself. Given the info in this chapter, distant relative = senju offshoot. How hard is that to figure out? Seriously...

      Can't state this enough, we'll just have to see. BTW, how many of you have been totally wrong and came back to admit it. I'll admit it, when it's properly explained. And that's when we learn more of Hamura, and not Hagoroma. That is the only way you'll convince me, people. I consider my uncles and cousins family, distant or otherwise. As Black Zetsu stated, there was alot that Hagoramo did not know. So if the Sage didn't know, how do you guys know so much.

      You're unbelievable...it's stated in the manga and therefore already properly explained. THAT's why we "know so much." You're already wrong and you're not admitting it. I don't know what more explanation you need from the manga. It's not going to get any clearer than this in a manga story setting. Kishi won't be like "Hi, I'm the current hamura transmigrant and naruto, your uzumaki clan is not descended from hamura so suck it." What hagoromo didn't know about was kaguya being the ten-tails. That's completely different from this. But whatever you can wait as long as you like but as I said before, you won't get a clearer explanation than the one already given in the manga.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: The only speculation is yours.

      The rest of us are simply dismissing your bullocks.

      So you know for a fact what Kishi will do next, that is what speculation is, guessing at an outcome. We don't know much about Hamura so how can we truly say anything about him and his. When Kishi explains it, then we will truly know. All we know is that Kaguya had two offspring and that Hagoroma had two offspring. You claim that it has been explained who is a descendant of who, oh high and mighty Naruto intellectuals can you please point this ole simple minded neophyte in the right direction of the right chapters too read, I'll do that right now so I can finally admit that I'm wrong

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    • Chapters in the manga not the wiki article, please and thank you. Oh I will still use this wiki as a reference page.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling
      18:03, June 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Sorry, gotta go, I'll finish f-king with ya'll tomorrow. Thanx for the fun. Plus stop taking this so serious, because I'm not. It's all in goood fun. But remember once you let an a-hole in, it's hard to kick him out. hahahahaaha, have fun, see ya'll tomorrow

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    • Anyone think that maybe Sakura will be the descendant of Hamura? Naruto has a history of doing things in threes and right now she is lagging behind Naruto and Sasuke and she isn't under the Infinite Tsukuyomi so right now she is involved in the action but not strong enough to compete in the fighting. Probably wrong but just throwing a theory out there.

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    • Oh no, its very easy to kick him out. Trust me on that one.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling
      18:02, June 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Now I'm on my phone, ahahahahahaha, Ten Tailed Fox, YOU THE LEADER OF CIRCLJERKkagure. Bro, it's not that serious, it's just Manga talk, bud. You're flying way off the handle, partner. I bet you got a Naruto shrine somewhere in your basement. Like I said, it's not that SERIOUS. This is just fun for me, what about you? You can't take a lil ragging. I have stated this plenty of times, WE WILL HAVE TO SEE IN FUTURE CHAPTERS. When it is explained (in full detail) I will happily tug your happy camper for you. LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN, IT IS NOT THAT SERIOUS.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling
      18:02, June 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      I know I'm not the only one with theories or revelations on this, but your on a whole nother level when it comes to the Narutoverse, bro. I thought I was a Naruto nut job, but brother, the way your going about this I'm a Naruto beach bum, hahahahahaha. As you can see I'm laughing at all of this, but your steaming. I didn't mean to make you slap your kids around because I'm being a D-CK, dude. Calm down, take a chill pill, and cool out, bro. It's innocent fun to me, and a reason to kill for you. I'm not your enemy, Kishi is. lmmfao

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      trolling
      18:02, June 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Lpclemo wrote: Anyone think that maybe Sakura will be the descendant of Hamura? Naruto has a history of doing things in threes and right now she is lagging behind Naruto and Sasuke and she isn't under the Infinite Tsukuyomi so right now she is involved in the action but not strong enough to compete in the fighting. Probably wrong but just throwing a theory out there.

      Watch out, bro, Ten Tailed Fox is a monster when it comes to Naruto, he might eat your Mother. ahahahahahahaaha

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    • I'll deal with this. Trolling, luckily, is something I can act on.

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    • why is there so much hatred on this thread, this is about chapter 681, not troll wars.

      This is so stupid.

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    • KaizokuJaeger wrote: I'm just wondering here ... who is the father for Hagoromo and Hamura ... like who had the balls to sleep with Kaguya?

      could have been a virgin birth? this story is known for using a lot of themes inspired by real life religions/myths/legends

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    • I don't see why people are so vehemently against your theory, compared to the ridiculousness recently. Thing is we don't know what Kaguya's "will" is exactly, how it happened, or what specifically happened that caused her to manifest Black Zetsu. I wouldn't say some sort of mind control is completely out of the picture here.

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    • Seriously, these crackpot theories (which were in much less abundance in the past) are beginning to make me question my support for general Naruto discussions.

      TheUltimate, Omnibender, Cerez, if you see this, I beg your forgiveness. I have learned my lesson. >_<

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    • This chapter finally answered how Madara faked his death, but in doing so it raised a whole bunch of new questions. Now we need to know how (and in what way) Kaguya became the Ten-Tails, why she became the Ten-Tails (presumably not by choice), how she created Black Zetsu, etc.

      Did anyone else get the impression that this chapter sort of forgot that the Ten-Tails was sealed in Hagoromo for years before he created the moon? Black Zetsu says Hagoromo and Hamura used a powerful seal on Ten-Tails/Kaguya, then immediately talks about creating the moon, as if they were the same event and Chibaku Tensei was the powerful seal. Hopefully the raws will clear up at least some of this stuff.

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    • BeyondRed wrote: Now we need to know how (and in what way) Kaguya became the Ten-Tails, why she became the Ten-Tails (presumably not by choice), how she created Black Zetsu, etc.

      I believe that, since Kaguya had a desire to collect all chakra after eating the fruit, she must've absorbed the Shinju into herself, making her the first Jinchuuriki, not Hagoromo. I didn't think it'd be this way before, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi did that.

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    • This is off topic but...Madara was called the Second Six Paths. Nagato was called the Third Six Paths.. but it seems that title would be false for him if the eyes were only transplanted Rinnegan he himself didn't awaken and Obito knows they were transplanted.. yet he still called Nagato the Third Six Paths... now Black Zetsu said he approached Senju AND Uchiha from the very beginning to try and get either of them to awaken Rinnegan... so I think the simple act of transplanting Izuna/Madara's eyes into an Uzumaki/Senju awakened the Rinnegan within Nagato himself's DNA, so if he was ever revived like Madara was, his own eyes would have Rinnegan awakened in them and he would be able to turn them on/off. Idk it seems far fetched but the Third Six Paths title seems to hint to it??

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: This is off topic but...Madara was called the Second Six Paths. Nagato was called the Third Six Paths.. but it seems that title would be false for him if the eyes were only transplanted Rinnegan he himself didn't awaken and Obito knows they were transplanted.. yet he still called Nagato the Third Six Paths... now Black Zetsu said he approached Senju AND Uchiha from the very beginning to try and get either of them to awaken Rinnegan... so I think the simple act of transplanting Izuna/Madara's eyes into an Uzumaki/Senju awakened the Rinnegan within Nagato himself's DNA, so if he was ever revived like Madara was, his own eyes would have Rinnegan awakened in them and he would be able to turn them on/off. Idk it seems far fetched but the Third Six Paths title seems to hint to it??

      I think it was because of how well he fit with the Rinnegan that he could be considered the 3rd sage. From what is shown, the only ones who could awaken the Rinnegan are the one's who inherited Hagoromo's kid's chakra.... and even among them, the one's that inherit the chakra also have to be special...

      So Madara was probably the first person in a long time with the potential to awaken the Rinnegan. I don't think the Dojutsu becomes a part of Nagato if he was completly revived.

      A title is, in the end, just a title. You don't need to look to deep into it.

      Few people in History actually were able to use the Rinnegan as well as Naruto. Obito himself admitted that he couldn't handle 2 Rinnegan, yet Nagato was able to use it as a child. Nagato was the 3rd person to have a Rinnegan in both eye's. He had the powers of the sage from both sides (though he wasn't a true heir).

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    • BeyondRed wrote: This chapter finally answered how Madara faked his death, but in doing so it raised a whole bunch of new questions. Now we need to know how (and in what way) Kaguya became the Ten-Tails, why she became the Ten-Tails (presumably not by choice), how she created Black Zetsu, etc.

      Did anyone else get the impression that this chapter sort of forgot that the Ten-Tails was sealed in Hagoromo for years before he created the moon? Black Zetsu says Hagoromo and Hamura used a powerful seal on Ten-Tails/Kaguya, then immediately talks about creating the moon, as if they were the same event and Chibaku Tensei was the powerful seal. Hopefully the raws will clear up at least some of this stuff.

      It actually was said in the chapter that Kaguya was sealed inside of her children. Before it was said that Hagoromo and his brother sealed the Jubi inside of themselves, but BZ is saying that they were wrong and that they sealed their mom inside of themselves.

      It never said that she was sealed away in the moon right after she was beaten. It was just stated that the seal eventually was used to create the moon. We weren't given how long it took for that to happen. Could have been many years later.

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    • So,I have no idea who asked it, and I do not want to wade back through that ^ to find out exactly who, but someone asked how Kaguya can teleport. Here is one explanation:

      1. It has been shown that powers amongst members of the Otsotsuki clan are basically split evenly between siblings. Examples include Haguromo and Hamura each receiving one of Kaguya's dojutsu and Haguromo's Rinnegan being essentially split in half between Asura and Indra.

      2. Naruto and Sasuke both possess the transmigrate chakra of their ancestors, Asura and Indra.

      3. By combining in his descendants the chakra of the sibling of whom they were not a transmigrate, Haguromo instills within them new powers, including flight, chakra restoration, a functioning Rinnegan, and teleportation. This implies that as the original bearer of this particular chakra set, Haguromo possessed all of these abilities.

      4. This further implies that Kaguya, progenitor of chakra in general an the chakra of her son's specifically, had access to all of their powers, including teleportation (as well as the power of will materialisation, which has not appeared as a confirmed power of the brothers and therefore may exist as an exception to this process).

      Again, I do not know for sure who asked the question, but here is a reasonable (I.e. not Hamura=Uzumaki=Zetsu) answer using evidence found in the manga, along with some supported inferences, as to why Kaguya can teleport. What this teleportation actually entails is another question, and one whose answer eludes me.

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    • @Foxie, block the guy please.

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    • What I wonder is, what has become of those stuck in the tree? Kaguya manifested by taking their chakra, which is shown to turn people into Zetsus. Is that an instant thing? Are Hinata and Gaara and co. becoming Zetsus as we type?

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    • Naruto is fictional, so not as we type. And according to BZ, the process takes a while.

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    • Everreddie
      Everreddie removed this reply because:
      Misread the person I was replying to.
      12:49, June 20, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: This is off topic but...Madara was called the Second Six Paths. Nagato was called the Third Six Paths.. but it seems that title would be false for him if the eyes were only transplanted Rinnegan he himself didn't awaken and Obito knows they were transplanted.. yet he still called Nagato the Third Six Paths... now Black Zetsu said he approached Senju AND Uchiha from the very beginning to try and get either of them to awaken Rinnegan... so I think the simple act of transplanting Izuna/Madara's eyes into an Uzumaki/Senju awakened the Rinnegan within Nagato himself's DNA, so if he was ever revived like Madara was, his own eyes would have Rinnegan awakened in them and he would be able to turn them on/off. Idk it seems far fetched but the Third Six Paths title seems to hint to it??

      Actually, Nagato got the Rinnegan because Madara implanted his Rinnegan in to him when he was an infant. Madara awakened Rinnegan by biting a bit of Hashirama's flesh off and putting it in to his wound. He was basically mixing Indra's chakra with Ashura's which brought out Hagaromo's chakra giving Madara the Rinnegan.

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    • i did not even read everything you said but i got to say right off the bat you are wrong

      chakra is and always will be the combination of Physical and Mental energies.(they never once have said otherwise not even in the last chapter) if it was not a combination of both energies then training the body alone would not increase your chakra you would need to train both your body and mind at the same time(as in moving meditation) where in it is obvious that you can increase in chakra by simply lifting weights doing push ups etc etc Or by simply meditating

      the shinju was made of natural energy and natural energy alone. when kaguya ate the fruit she gained the god like natural energy she then molded her physical and mental energies together creating Chakra. her children received said chakra

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    • Lexstarbuck wrote:

      Adrian Jasper wrote: I think Hamura is also the ancestor of the uzumaki

      So do I, all we see is his eyes, so we don't know for certain whether he is the Hyuuga's ancestor. If it took both to seal her, and Hagoromo developed Ninshuu, what's to keep Hamura from developing sealing techniques, such as the Dead Demon Consuming Seal. We know that the Senju and Uzumaki clans are Distant relatives and got along very well, that is reason enough for me to believe that Ashura may have well gotten along with his uncle, UNCLE HAM, HAHAHAHAHA

      the uzumaki clan are a branch off of the senju. in order to be one of hagoromo's sons successors you have to be directly descended from either indra or ashura being that all other successors were the descendants of the one they succeeded

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    • ElvinWindSword wrote: I think Hamura's kids were the creator of the Hyuga clan. Which would mess everything up in Naruto in my opinion because the Hyuga clan was inferior to the Uchiha and Senju.

      If the Hyuga was descended from Hamura then they should have more power and potential than the fodder they currently have.

      the hyuga clan are not inferior to the uchiha or senju and never have been they have always been known as the magnum force of the leaf. the byakugan has always been known as the superior dojutsu between sharingan and byakugan. the sharingan allows you to see chakra and calculate and understand how a person moves and memorize techniques but doesn't have the microvision of the byakugan or the 360(with a slight blind sight) vision also the byakugan allows the person to see through all genjutsu except for the IT

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    • i believe that the sword was likely a regular sword with a sealing jutsu on it. maybe he swallowed it or some how merged it with his susanoo

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    • Ajr1218 wrote:

      BeyondRed wrote: Now we need to know how (and in what way) Kaguya became the Ten-Tails, why she became the Ten-Tails (presumably not by choice), how she created Black Zetsu, etc.

      I believe that, since Kaguya had a desire to collect all chakra after eating the fruit, she must've absorbed the Shinju into herself, making her the first Jinchuuriki, not Hagoromo. I didn't think it'd be this way before, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi did that.

      it is my theory that the fruit was the shinju's life force or heart when she ate the fruit the shinju died. we know the shinju is not sentient it was just a tree that had a strong life force. it was simply akin to a powerful organism. she consumed the fruit and gained the same powerful life force. she then molded her physical and spiritual energies together creating chakra her children were born with it and she wanted that chakra back because she was weaker with out the chakra they gained so she created a massive form(the juubi) to take back the power

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Seriously, these crackpot theories (which were in much less abundance in the past) are beginning to make me question my support for general Naruto discussions.

      TheUltimate, Omnibender, Cerez, if you see this, I beg your forgiveness. I have learned my lesson. >_<

      Come on, man. Don't shrug people off for just having a theory. I'm sure if I said Kaguya will overtake Madara as the main antagonist earlier prior to what happened and manipulated him, people would have called that a crackpot theory. xP

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    • Mrlmm0605 wrote: So,I have no idea who asked it, and I do not want to wade back through that ^ to find out exactly who, but someone asked how Kaguya can teleport. Here is one explanation:

      1. It has been shown that powers amongst members of the Otsotsuki clan are basically split evenly between siblings. Examples include Haguromo and Hamura each receiving one of Kaguya's dojutsu and Haguromo's Rinnegan being essentially split in half between Asura and Indra.

      2. Naruto and Sasuke both possess the transmigrate chakra of their ancestors, Asura and Indra.

      3. By combining in his descendants the chakra of the sibling of whom they were not a transmigrate, Haguromo instills within them new powers, including flight, chakra restoration, a functioning Rinnegan, and teleportation. This implies that as the original bearer of this particular chakra set, Haguromo possessed all of these abilities.

      4. This further implies that Kaguya, progenitor of chakra in general an the chakra of her son's specifically, had access to all of their powers, including teleportation (as well as the power of will materialisation, which has not appeared as a confirmed power of the brothers and therefore may exist as an exception to this process).

      Again, I do not know for sure who asked the question, but here is a reasonable (I.e. not Hamura=Uzumaki=Zetsu) answer using evidence found in the manga, along with some supported inferences, as to why Kaguya can teleport. What this teleportation actually entails is another question, and one whose answer eludes me.


      there is a simpler explanation

      Kaguya had already been shown to transport them to another dimension. she could have simply stepped outside of said dimension and stepped back in on the other side

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    • Kaguya's like a mixture of Tsunade and Kushina (in terms of looks and status of course).

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    • Starpendle wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Seriously, these crackpot theories (which were in much less abundance in the past) are beginning to make me question my support for general Naruto discussions.

      TheUltimate, Omnibender, Cerez, if you see this, I beg your forgiveness. I have learned my lesson. >_<

      Come on, man. Don't shrug people off for just having a theory. I'm sure if I said Kaguya will overtake Madara as the main antagonist earlier prior to what happened and manipulated him, people would have called that a crackpot theory. xP

      Thank you, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when you get literally gang up on someone for seeing it differently, your going to get a negative reaction, which I tend to make light of, since I am a loner. I love the hell out of Naruto, it's my favorite manga, but it seems there's a club here and I'm just the new kid on the block. CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT CHAPTER. Peaceout no jutsu.

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      i did not even read everything you said but i got to say right off the bat you are wrong

      chakra is and always will be the combination of Physical and Mental energies.(they never once have said otherwise not even in the last chapter) if it was not a combination of both energies then training the body alone would not increase your chakra you would need to train both your body and mind at the same time(as in moving meditation) where in it is obvious that you can increase in chakra by simply lifting weights doing push ups etc etc Or by simply meditating

      the shinju was made of natural energy and natural energy alone. when kaguya ate the fruit she gained the god like natural energy she then molded her physical and mental energies together creating Chakra. her children received said chakra

      Wrong, it said that Hagoromo gave everyone chakra and CONNECTED it.... they didn't create chakra.... people connected their spiritual and physical energy with chakra

      Read EVERYTHING I wrote. People connected the energy called chakra with their physical & spiritual energies. Since their chakra is now connected with their energies, then increasing their spirit or physical energy should increase their energy.

      It should be noted that there is physical chakra & spiritual chakra....

      Now, while people in the Naruto-verse claimed in the beginning that chakra was a mix of spiritual & physical energy, their energies were always mixed with chakra, so if their 2 energies were always mixed with chakra, they wouldn't realize that they didn't have pure spirit or physical energy.

      It never said that the Shinju was a force of Natural energy, just that it was the source of all chakra and that it was like Nature......

      The people in the Naruto-verse's physical energy is considered a chakra as well as their spirit energy.

      The sage himself said that he intened to use chakra to connect everyone's spirit energy, but then they instead connected it to their spirit & physical energies.

      They amplified their chakra with their physical & spiritual energies, so increasing one's spirit or physical energy increases one's chakra.

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    • Hisana456 wrote: Kaguya's like a mixture of Tsunade and Kushina (in terms of looks and status of course).

      except her creepy as hell eye's.... it looked gross....

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    • Starpendle wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Seriously, these crackpot theories (which were in much less abundance in the past) are beginning to make me question my support for general Naruto discussions.

      TheUltimate, Omnibender, Cerez, if you see this, I beg your forgiveness. I have learned my lesson. >_<

      Come on, man. Don't shrug people off for just having a theory. I'm sure if I said Kaguya will overtake Madara as the main antagonist earlier prior to what happened and manipulated him, people would have called that a crackpot theory. xP

      I prefer to just write them off.

      Whether or not it comes true later isn't the point.

      The fact is that some people don't know what reasonable foresight is, and what is just completely off the wall, wackjob theories. Besides, your example is a tad bit off. Most of us suspected Kaguya would return when her face appeared in the damn sky. Using context clues is a key to making a good "theory".

      The guy I "wrote off" ignored canon blatantly, ignored everyone who told him he was ignoring canon, ridiculed the direct proof given to him, and then acted like a three-year old troll. He deserved the reaction he got.

      No there is not some club, but it is a general rule of thumb that you do not come to a place (website or real life location) fresh off of Google and start talking trash to the people who actually edit this site (as of yet, the person in question has yet to make one content edit, and yes that is a thing for us).

      It generally doesn't work out well if you do, but he thought himself above that.

      Now, carry on with the topic of the thread. The Uzumaki clan's lineage is established. Leave those theories (which are all wrong, since canon has established the lineage), out of this thread.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      Hisana456 wrote: Kaguya's like a mixture of Tsunade and Kushina (in terms of looks and status of course).

      except her creepy as hell eye's.... it looked gross....

      Obviously Kishi has a thing for ugly villians...

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: This is off topic but...Madara was called the Second Six Paths. Nagato was called the Third Six Paths.. but it seems that title would be false for him if the eyes were only transplanted Rinnegan he himself didn't awaken and Obito knows they were transplanted.. yet he still called Nagato the Third Six Paths... now Black Zetsu said he approached Senju AND Uchiha from the very beginning to try and get either of them to awaken Rinnegan... so I think the simple act of transplanting Izuna/Madara's eyes into an Uzumaki/Senju awakened the Rinnegan within Nagato himself's DNA, so if he was ever revived like Madara was, his own eyes would have Rinnegan awakened in them and he would be able to turn them on/off. Idk it seems far fetched but the Third Six Paths title seems to hint to it??

      Madara awakened the Rinnegan by biting a bit of Hashirama's flesh off and putting it in to his wound. He was basically mixing Indra's chakra with Ashura's chakra which brought Hagaromo's chakra giving him the Rinnegan. It worked because Madara was the reincarnation of Indra. Nagato isn't the reincarnation of anyone, so I don't see how Nagato could awaken the Rinnegan just by implanting Izuna/Madara's Sharingan just because Nagato is a Senju/Uzumaki.

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    • Well, we have no evidence that Kaguya transported the cast to a new dimension. Logically, she could have just teleported them to, you know, one of the many erupting volcanoes that exist on earth at any given time. Sasuke has shown the ability to teleport others, and Kaguya's chakra power is immensely more powerful than his, so ergo she should have the ability to teleport much farther. This whole alternate dimension thing seems a bit left field.

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    • I don't think Kakashi would just assume it were an alternate dimension if it was just an active volcano, but I honestly have no idea.

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    • Hisana456 wrote: Obviously Kishi has a thing for ugly villians...

      Well, it's not like all the villains are ugly (Orochimaru looks Creepy & Obito is probably not the handsomest guy, but there is good reason for them looking the way that they do)...

      Kaguya's only creepy when she activates the Byakugan, so if she turned it off, she'd be kinda hot

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    • kaguya's power can be sensed on a planetary level. the 5 kage no longer sense her chakra because they are literally in another dimension even kakashi said that

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    • Nothing i said is wrong in fact everything you said is wrong. you clearly have no reading comprehension

      it has always been that Chakra is the combination of spiritual and physical energy ALWAYS it never will change. you can have your opinion all you want but that doesn't change the fact your opinions are not backed up by the facts of the manga. and yes the shinju is natural energy they specifically say that. Kurama says to Naruto you can not sense it using emotion sensing because its a force of nature its made up of Natural energy thats why only senjutsu effects the shinju Black Zetsu literally says that Kaguya is the source of all chakra. Kaguya not the shinju. the juubi is a combination of the shinju's natural energy and kaguya's chakra. the tailed beasts are made up of said chakra(kaguya's chakra) Kaguya took her Spiritual and physical energies and molded them together creating chakra because she had the shinju's natural energy it became incredibly powerful chakra. there is no ifs ands or buts about it. that is a fact.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Now, carry on with the topic of the thread. The Uzumaki clan's lineage is established. Leave those theories (which are all wrong, since canon has established the lineage), out of this thread.

      Well when i edited Asura and Uzumaki pages(about relation to eachother) they was rollbacked with reason "we don't know yet" and now you said it established. Now on wiki current situation is: Uzumaki are Asura descendants on discussion boards but on pages no-no to mentioning it. No wonder why people came with such theories.

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    • Can we stop with the pyramid quoting? It is making it impossible to read the thread with the long posts being quoted. Quote the post and then remove the quote after you've written a reply. I'm going through the whole thread removing "massive quotes" to make the thread easier to read for myself and other people >_>

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    • @Actionmanrandell No, it said it was a force of nature and that it's power is immeasurable. Also, the Sage said that people AMPLIFIED their chakra by mixing it with their physical and spiritual energy. Madara stated that people stole chakra.

      From all the stuff said during the ten tails revival, it seems that Chakra is actually a separate energy. While it was said in the beginning that Chakra was the mix of physical and spiritual energy, later chapters considered physical energy a type of chakra and spirit energy as a type of chakra.

      What was said in the beginning about chakra being a mix of spirit & physical energy might have been said because for as long as the shinobi could remember, They mixed their physical and spiritual chakra together. So their energies would have always have been mixed with chakra & wouldn't realize that it was a separate energy, because they'd have never had normal physical or spiritual energy.

      It kept on saying that Chakra was "Given" or "Stolen". It hasn't been said that people "Created" it.

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote: kaguya's power can be sensed on a planetary level. the 5 kage no longer sense her chakra because they are literally in another dimension even kakashi said that

      Kakashi saying that Kaguya is 'literally in another dimension' could mean that her chakra is exponentially higher than anyone else's in the series thus far. That may be confirmed by Naruto, who comments that her power is greater than that of the Shinju. Dimension has many meanings, so the assumption that Kishi must have meant Kaguya broke physics and transported the group to a new plane of reality based on a possibly misunderstood quote of Kakashi is far-fetched.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      Hisana456 wrote: Obviously Kishi has a thing for ugly villians...

      Well, it's not like all the villains are ugly (Orochimaru looks Creepy & Obito is probably not the handsomest guy, but there is good reason for them looking the way that they do)...

      Kaguya's only creepy when she activates the Byakugan, so if she turned it off, she'd be kinda hot

      ;) Like I said, a mixture of Tsunade and Kushina.

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    • Don't get me wrong, Kaguya has a pretty face. Kishi just draws her Byaku veins intense, like really intense. But there is some good fanart of her out there with the Byakugan activated. I would say, depending on how you draw her, she can be pure nightmare fuel (which I assume is Kishi's intent) or even more delicate than Hinata.

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    • Mrlmm0605 wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote: kaguya's power can be sensed on a planetary level. the 5 kage no longer sense her chakra because they are literally in another dimension even kakashi said that

      Kakashi saying that Kaguya is 'literally in another dimension' could mean that her chakra is exponentially higher than anyone else's in the series thus far. That may be confirmed by Naruto, who comments that her power is greater than that of the Shinju. Dimension has many meanings, so the assumption that Kishi must have meant Kaguya broke physics and transported the group to a new plane of reality based on a possibly misunderstood quote of Kakashi is far-fetched.

      wrong wrong wrong wrong. dimension just means that another dimension the other kage no longer sense the chakra of kaguya they specifically say that

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    • nope thats wrong the sage never once said that people amplified anything you are making shit up. im sorry but not one part of the manga does Hagoromo say that people amplified their chakra by mixing it with physical and spiritual energy i do not know where you are getting this shit from because it simply has never been mentioned before ever

      and again never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever did they refer to physical and spiritual energies as two different types of chakra. they have only refereed to physical and spiritual energy as physical energy and spiritual energy this is exactly the definition of chakra "Chakra (チャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic technique; it is the moulding of the physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī) gained from the mind. Once moulded, it can be channelled through the chakra circulatory system, which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 chakra points (called tenketsu) in the body."

      here is a link to the list of chakra types if you notice you will not find Physical and spiritual energy listed as types of chakra it clearly states that chakra is made of spiritual and physical energy molded together: Chakra#Normal_Chakra

      and on an end note before you go posting things on here you better do your research so you actually know what you are talking about

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote: wrong wrong wrong wrong. dimension just means that another dimension the other kage no longer sense the chakra of kaguya they specifically say that

      Does the kage being unable to detect Kaguya's chakra mean that she transcended the laws of time and space? Not in the slightest. Remember, way back in the beginning of the Ten-Tails Revival Arc, when the Shinju was just restored, no one could sense the chakra of the massive beast that was literally feet away. It is therefore surprising that they should be able to detect the chakra of Kaguya at all. And, before you go all 'Well but senjustu...', this wiki's article on Sage Mode describes a sage's ability to sense chakra as having a limited range. So, if she did teleport to some remote, erupting volcano, as I postulate, not even the reincarnated kage, who are noted, skilled sages, should be able to detect them.

      There. And I even did my research.

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    • first off all kaguya is not made up of just natural energy the shinju was made up of entirely natural energy and is void of emotions thats why it could not be sensed kaguya has chakra. which can be sensed by any sensory ninja mere moments before that. the kage sensed her her chakra. your theory makes absolutely no sense. there is no way that one second they can sense her and a split second later they can no longer sense her minata could sense he chakra all the way back in the leaf village and he is not even a sensory ninja. your theory's are just that Theory's that are not based around anything

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    • Actionmanrandell, please stop pyramid quoting, it makes it impossible to read your posts. When you've clicked the Quote button on a post, write your reply below the area quoted, then delete all text above your reply in the posting form. I've just spent the last 30 minutes removing half the pyramid quotes from this one thread alone.

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    • I am just going to take this apart, bit by bit.

      Actionmanrandell wrote: first off all kaguya is not made up of just natural energy the shinju was made up of entirely natural energy and is void of emotions thats why it could not be sensed kaguya has chakra.which can be sensed by any sensory ninja mere moments before that. the kage sensed her her chakra.

      The Shinju was NOT made up of only natural energy. It has a chakra all its own. That is where the tailed beasts, beings made of chakra, came from. No Shinju chakra equals no tailed beasts equals no plot.

      Actionmanrandall wrote: there is no way that one second they can sense her and a split second later they can no longer sense her

      She was near them. They could sense her. She stopped being near them. They could not sense her.

      Actionmanrandall wrote: minata could sense he chakra all the way back in the leaf village and he is not even a sensory ninja.

      Minato IS A SAGE. An exceptionally skilled one, at that, seeing as how he mastered senjutsu without having ever used it in combat before. Sages can sense chakra. Therefore, Minato could sense chakra, and was technically a sensor ninja. As mentioned earlier though, even this has limits.

      No part of your argument contained any actual, irrefutable evidence that can show me that Kaguya left the base plane of existence. In fact, all it did was provide evidence as to how she could have just, I don't know, teleported to some volcano out in the ocean really far away. I also do not enjoy the implication that my theories are absurd, or not based on fact. If you are going to argue with me, please argue with me by presenting evidence as to why you are correct. Do not involve my credibility.

      And, since you apparently do not know how senjutsu works, I ask that you 'do your research so you actually know what you are talking about.'

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    • @Actionmanrandell

      Your right about that, I meant Madara, not the sage..... it was an accident..... I don't know why I typed sage, but I meant Madara

      But chakra was GIVEN. I did do my research, but you realize that most people's in the Naruto-verse said that Chakra was a mixture of spirit & physical energy without knowing the origins of chakra....

      Also, Naruto had the Physical energy of the Kyubi, the Yang Chakra..... so the chakra were noted to be divided.

      Also, do you realize that your link talked about NORMAL CHAKRA, the chakra used by everybody now. They create their chakra by mixing their spiritual and physical energy....

      It's the same way Naruto creates his Sage chakra by mixing spirit, physical, and natural energy....

      So that section is talking about the chakra people amplified rather than the original chakra that people shared and connected everyone. It's the power amplified the same way Naruto amplified his chakra with sage energy.....

      It's said that the Shinju is the source of ALL chakra, and that it is filled with CHAKRA..... it didn't say that the Shinju was a mass of natural energy, just that it was a natural force that had & created chakra (though the new chap seems to imply that it was Kaguya).....

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    • Official English translation is out.

      Script for Black Zetsu's monologue:

      Black Zetsu: Kaguya seems to see her two children... when she looks at the two of you. Ain't that sweet...? She who was sealed away by her own children. Poor, pitiable Mother.
      Naruto: Why'd Six Paths Super Gramps seal his ma away?! I thought he sealed Ten Tails?!
      Black Zetsu: It appears you have a misconception...
      Sasuke: Black Zetsu, who and what are you?!
      Black Zetsu: I am Kaguya's child.
      Sasuke: What?! (His... aura seems different suddenly?!)
      Black Zetsu: I recorded everything that happened while Mother was gone... and molded it as well. The tale of shinobi... is the tale of restoring Mother.
      Naruto: Huh?! What're you talking about? Whaddya mean?!
      Black Zetsu: That you know Mother's name... means you've met Hagoromo. I knew that it was possible, depending on the reincarnate's power. And to receive the power to seal Mother as well.
      Naruto: Huh?! It's the Ten Tails we're gonna seal!
      Black Zetsu: Indra and Ashura's reincarnates cooperating this closely is rare. You two know nothing. Let me tell you her tale while I suck out all your chakra.
      Black Zetsu: Like I just said... Mother was previously sealed away by her own children. It was said to have been a most powerful seal. The jutsu that transformed Ten Tails into a Catastrophic Planetary Construction core... and turned it into the moon.
      Black Zetsu: But just before the seal took hold, she gave birth to me. In order that she could one day be restored. I'll show you all that. I don't have any candy, but let's begin this puppet show.
      Naruto: ...
      Black Zetsu: First off, Ten Tails... is not just the Divine Tree... it is Mother herself, as well. It wasn't the Divine Tree's incarnation trying to reclaim its chakra fruit... but Mother's will, attempting to take back the chakra that had been dispersed... into her two children.
      Naruto: ?!
      Black Zetsu: Even Hagoromo didn't know this truth. Nor that I was acting on Mother's behalf, in order to restore her. Around then, ignorant of all this, Hagoromo... was raising Indra and Ashura... and even created that Ninja Creed nonsense.
      Black Zetsu: But I was able to utilize all this material for Mother's return. I tempted Indra, who'd lost the fight over Ninja Creed succession... and later, I selected Indra's descendants, the Uchiha Clan, to be the cast of my tale... by meddling with and altering that rubbish Hagoromo penned, just a little bit.
      Sasuke: ...You mean?!
      Black Zetsu: That's right... Hagoromo's stone tablet. I took it upon myself to rewrite some of it. Like how Infinite Tsukuyomi was the path to save the Uchiha. You all performed your parts brilliantly... you Uchiha did.
      Black Zetsu: Indra and Uchiha... Ashura and Senju... They fought each other, setting up a pattern of power-seeking... Time after time, I'd approach the reincarnate in each clan... to attempt Rinnegan manifestation, but it always ended in failure. But when the reincarnates became Uchiha Madara and Senju Hashirama... I came to believe... that Madara could achieve it. That was the first step toward mother's return. But Uchiha Madara was felled by Senju Hashirama...
      Hashirama: !
      Black Zetsu: Madara's corpse was like a treasure trove to other shinobi. Tobirama, who'd been studying the mysteries of the Sharingan... stopped short of destroying Madara's body... and hid it deep within Konoha's mountains instead. But Madara was no fool...
      Black Zetsu: You can invoke a time-delay spell in one's eye using the Mangekyo Sharingan. Just like how Itachi implanted the Amaterasu in yours, Sasuke. Madara had installed the Izanagi in his right eye. At the cost of that right eye, he rewrote reality and returned to life... He then passed off a Shadow Doppelganger as his corpse...
      Black Zetsu: He vomited up the piece of flesh he bit off Hashirama... transplanted it onto his wound opening... and finally awakened the Rinnegan and summoned the Gedo Statue. He then cultured Hashirama's flesh using the statue... in an attempt to prolong his life further. The White Zetsu seemed to be an incidental byproduct of that... but they actually were people put under the Infinite Tsukuyomi in the past, whom I extracted from the statue and made look that way.
      Black Zetsu: "Two polar opposites operating together gives rise to all things in this universe." As inscribed on the stone tablet, Madara solidifed his attachment to Hashirama.
      Black Zetsu: I aligned myself with the Uchiha underground... and made it look like I was born out of Madara... I led things toward the plan to collect the Biju... the Akatsuki... and the war. Then, in order to increase battle strength, I deliberately let Kabuto discover Madara's corpse... I guided him to use the corpse as a bargaining chip and cooperate with Obito. That was all my doing. So, as long planned, the Infinite Tsukuyomi was launched during this war... and by amassing a large amount of the human chakra that'd been scattered... Mother was restored.
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    • So, with that, I hope we can all agree once and for all that Manga Stream's translation was rubbish. Their translator appears to have an extremely poor grasp of Japanese grammar, given how utterly backwards most of their translation is.

      Key differences:

      • Zetsu doesn't talk in a weird plural third person that includes Hagoromo and Hamura.
      • Zetsu says Kaguya was sealed away by her own children, not that she was sealed inside of "us, her children."
      • Zetsu says he knew it was a possibility that the reincarnates could meet Hagoromo and obtain the power to seal Kaguya, not that he explicitly knew it had happened.
      • Naruto says that their plan was to seal the Ten Tails (as opposed to Kaguya), not that the Ten Tails "was sealed."
      • Zetsu is saying that it's rare for the reincarnates to cooperate, not that jumble of words about the "reincarnates that have given their help up til now" being "fascinating."
      • Again, Zetsu doesn't include himself with Hagoromo and Hamura and doesn't say she was sealed in them.
      • Zetsu tells them he doesn't have candy, but he'll show them a puppet show, as opposed to popcorn and entertainment.
      • Zetsu says that it wasn't the Ten Tails incarnation trying to reclaim its chakra, but rather Kaguya's will trying to take her chakra back from her two children, NOT that she wasn't an incarnation of the tree and was trying to reclaim chakra to disperse among her two children.
      • He says the Uchiha and Senju were seeking power, not chakra.
      • He says he approached the reincarnates of the clans, not the "families' successors."
      • Tobirama was the one who had been studying the Sharingan and hid Madara's corpse in the mountains, not Zetsu.
      • He says that the Mangekyou Sharingan can invokve time-delayed spells, not that it can acquire and learn powers outside of time.
      • Madara cultivated Hashirama's flesh with the Gedo Statue to prolong his life, and Black Zetsu made the White Zetsus appear to be a byproduct of that, even though they were actually the previous victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Madara did NOT cultivate it within the statue to "prolong its survival," and Zetsu was not "quietly making his way out of the Demonic Statue."
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    • So, FF-Suzaku, let me get this straight: all the stuff Obito was running about him cultivating WZ underground right at the start of the war, when Kabuto convinced him to join forces, was basically a load of bullshit that was completely untrue?

      Is Kishi basically backpeddling on everything he just stated in previous chapters? >_>

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    • shrugs, then wood release ain't result of hashirama?

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    • FF-Suzaku, is the "official" translation VIZ? It's not always the most accurate either.......

      and SuperSajuuk: Madara, and in turn Obito, were fooled by Black Zetsu into believing that they were creating the White Zetsu (though Kabuto did use Hashirama's cells to make them stronger). They were actually previous victims and Madara (and Obito) didn't know about that.

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    • VIZ is the official English translation, yes.

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    • FF-Suzaku, is the "official" translation VIZ? It's not always the most accurate either.......

      Apart from occasional typographical errors (of which I don't think I've seen any in Weekly Shonen Jump), Viz's translation of Naruto is extremely accurate. Certainly far more consistent and accurate than Manga Stream and Manga Panda have ever been.

      SuperSajuuk wrote: So, FF-Suzaku, let me get this straight: all the stuff Obito was running about him cultivating WZ underground right at the start of the war, when Kabuto convinced him to join forces, was basically a load of bullshit that was completely untrue?

      Is Kishi basically backpeddling on everything he just stated in previous chapters? >_>

      Kishimoto didn't state anything in previous chapters, Obito did. The characters in a piece of fiction aren't themselves omniscient just because their dialogue was written by the author...

      Obito and Madara thought they were cultivating artifical clones of Hashirama using his cells, but Black Zetsu was really releasing the former Infinite Tsukuyomi victims that had been sealed in the Gedo Statue. They were infused with Hashirama's DNA and further strengthened by Kabuto after he captured Yamato.

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    • What I want to know is, since that is the correct translation after all, is how Madara had a Shadow Clone apparently pass as his corpse. Unless nobody actually checked the corpse after Tobirama hid it?

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    • Shadow doppelgangers are exact duplicates of the original and can't even be detected as fakes using doujutsu or sensory techniques.

      Madara probably placed the doppelganger into an altered state to simulate death, then released the technique after learning of Tobirama's passing.

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    • ^ He speaks truth. Only the Sharingan can distinguish a Shadow Clone from the original. Even the Byakugan could not, and certainly not sensors. A Shadow Clone could be a fairly decent decoy.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: ^ He speaks truth. Only the Sharingan can distinguish a Shadow Clone from the original. Even the Byakugan could not, and certainly not sensors. A Shadow Clone could be a fairly decent decoy.

      Yes but the shadow clone would also have chakra so it could not replace a dead body unless nobody checked it.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Only the Sharingan can distinguish a Shadow Clone from the original.

      Really? I don't recall any instances in which Sharingan could distinguish Shadow Clones from the original.

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    • Only in the anime it could once or twice. But canonically, it can't. But Madara's Sharingan could distinguish Hashirama and his Wood clones.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: ^ He speaks truth. Only the Sharingan can distinguish a Shadow Clone from the original. Even the Byakugan could not, and certainly not sensors. A Shadow Clone could be a fairly decent decoy.

      The sharingan being able to distinguish b/w original and shadow clones exists only in the anime.

      Tobirama took Madara's body for examining, how did the clone stay dead for this long if he did use a shadow clone, last time i check shadow clones dont stay dead when they are created.

      Also, the clones disappear when injured severely (atleast that has been shown in naruto's case).

      If madara made the clone after using izanagi, didn't tobirama noticed the difference in eyes while examining the body.

      Also, how did the izanagi plan work out so smoothly, what if tobirama was standing right next to him when the jutsu activated?

      How was hagoromo/kyuubi not able to sense BZ's ominous chakra?

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    • Perhaps it can hide its presence, just like Karin can. It can also appear as clothes or hide underground :D

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    • Wait, it said that Black Zetsu hid the corpse, not Tobirama.... besides, it wasn't shown how long the bunshin was used as a replacement... or why if Zetsu too the body.

      Maybe Madara just need the clone there long enough to escape.....

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Maybe Madara just need the clone there long enough to escape.....

      If that were true everyone would know that Madara was alive.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Wait, it said that Black Zetsu hid the corpse, not Tobirama.... besides, it wasn't shown how long the bunshin was used as a replacement... or why if Zetsu too the body.

      Maybe Madara just need the clone there long enough to escape.....

      Tobirama did hide the body in the forest of Konoha. Madara utilized Izanagi and rewrote the past, using a clone as his replacement meant that Hashirama killed a clone instead of Madara in the new rewritten history thanks to Madara.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Wait, it said that Black Zetsu hid the corpse, not Tobirama.... besides, it wasn't shown how long the bunshin was used as a replacement... or why if Zetsu too the body.

      Maybe Madara just need the clone there long enough to escape.....

      Mangastream mistranslated Tobirama's name as "gateway" and assumed it was supposed to be part of the sentence.

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    • Hagoromo 1234 wrote:

      Deathmailrock wrote: Maybe Madara just need the clone there long enough to escape.....

      If that were true everyone would know that Madara was alive.

      Its true, like he said if that were true everyone would know madara was alive, this is just plain stupid what kishimoto is giving, i hope he can make it more clear later on

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    • Elveonora wrote: Perhaps it can hide its presence, just like Karin can. It can also appear as clothes or hide underground :D

      Yeah, maybe But Naruto's emotion sensing which he gained thanks to kurama (whom i assume gained it from maybe the six paths or this ability might be unique to him) can sense emotions, not chakra

      Even kisame couldn't stay hidden inside samehada since naruto discovered him using this ability even though kisame's chakra was overshadowed by the blade's own chakra

      BZ's chakra (or his emotion) should have been sensed by the sage/kurama

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    • It's called plot.

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    • The Winter King wrote: Its true, like he said if that were true everyone would know madara was alive, this is just plain stupid what kishimoto is giving, i hope he can make it more clear later on

      Or, they might think that the body was stolen. He keeps the clone there long enough to distract them and once properly hidden, he could relase the clone with Konoha thinking somebody stole it or something.....

      I'm pretty sure if a dead body goes missing, people would first think that someone stole the body. Especially a body full of useful information.... Madara's dead body was valuable after all.

      or maybe he could add seals into the clone so that it makes it look like Tobirama or whoever was researching the body activated the destruction seal or something.

      or, it could be a special Kage Bunshin.... I mean, there are multiple types of Kage Bunshin, it could have been a special one created using Izanagi...... well, there are too many things it could be.

      And he can't just tell the Uchiha that he was researching Madara's body, so he'd probably have to keep it secret from much of Konoha.

      BZ's chakra (or his emotion) should have been sensed by the sage/kurama

      Well, since Black Zetsu was created by Kaguya, maybe he could hide himself from it because of this.... or he might not have had negative emotions at the moment from the joy of Kaguya's revival that took him so many freakin years.....

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      Or, they might think that the body was stolen. He keeps the clone there long enough to distract them and once properly hidden, he could relase the clone with Konoha thinking somebody stole it or something.....

      If that were the case then there would have been a huge uproar in the village, Tobirama isn't incompetent enough to let Madara's corpse fall into enemy hands.

      Deathmailrock wrote:

      or maybe he could add seals into the clone so that it makes it look like Tobirama or whoever was researching the body activated the destruction seal or something.

      This seems plausible enough.

      Deathmailrock wrote:

      or, it could be a special Kage Bunshin.... I mean, there are multiple types of Kage Bunshin, it could have been a special one created using Izanagi...... well, there are too many things it could be.

      It seems ridiculous, i hate it when people use new jutsu's to reason something, unless and until it has been already used in the series then bringing up such techniques or variant of existing techniques is a moot point. But anyway, it was called a Shadow Clone.

      Also, there aren't many type of Shadow clones, there is only one. But there are many types of Clones (Water clone, Mud Clone (don't know the name exactly, its earth style clone))

      Shadow clone can be imbued with chakra nature like Kakashi did to create a lightning style shadow clone. But madara's clone was called a Shadow clone

      Deathmailrock wrote:

      And he can't just tell the Uchiha that he was researching Madara's body, so he'd probably have to keep it secret from much of Konoha.

      True, but he could have told some other trusted clan memebers, he was well aware that there were many in the village that distrusted the uchihas

      Deathmailrock wrote:

      Well, since Black Zetsu was created by Kaguya, maybe he could hide himself from it because of this.... or he might not have had negative emotions at the moment from the joy of Kaguya's revival that took him so many freakin years.....

      He had negative emotions when he was plotting all of this. I dont doubt that he can hide from your normal chakra sensor types but no one has shown to be able to mask his/her emotions.

      P.S what about hashirama? He noticed BZ on top of the hill after his fight with Madara had ended, someone who was the Leader of the Senju clan and First Hokage didn't even bother to look into the matter of a mysterious figure that was standing amidst the most deadliest battles in shinobi history?
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    • @The Winter King

      1st, He wouldn't tell the whole village about it, just a few members. If the body was missing, he could have still sent some ninja to try and retrieve the body and see who took it. And they'd think that the enemy was just skilled, not that he was incompetent. So the village wouldn't go into panic (cause there are secrets kept from the village after all). If Tobirama found no body there, he could have sent people to search for it. Zetsu didn't go into detail about that. So it's possible for him to think that the body was stolen yet keep it hidden from all but a few trusted people to avoid panic and troubles.

      And the new jutsu thing was just a possibility, so chill. I was just explaining all the options.

      And for BZ, maybe he's just immune to negative emotion sensing OR at that moment, because of his joy from his mothers revival, he temporarily didn't have negative emotions..... or, maybe because he was coming out of Kaguya, Naruto wasn't able to sense him (coming from another dimension after all)

      and For Hashirama, he probably noticed some movement, but he was too weak at the moment to do anything about it. He might have later have tried to find out who it was (and by then, Zetsu wouldn't be there)

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      ElvinWindSword wrote: I think Hamura's kids were the creator of the Hyuga clan. Which would mess everything up in Naruto in my opinion because the Hyuga clan was inferior to the Uchiha and Senju.

      If the Hyuga was descended from Hamura then they should have more power and potential than the fodder they currently have.

      the hyuga clan are not inferior to the uchiha or senju and never have been they have always been known as the magnum force of the leaf. the byakugan has always been known as the superior dojutsu between sharingan and byakugan. the sharingan allows you to see chakra and calculate and understand how a person moves and memorize techniques but doesn't have the microvision of the byakugan or the 360(with a slight blind sight) vision also the byakugan allows the person to see through all genjutsu except for the IT

      Okay you need to rewatch part 1 then bro. Neji's father told him before he accepted his death that Neji had Hyuga blood flowing through him that was more powerful than any other member of the hyuga clan. This means that he had the most powerful eye and the potential to be the most powerful hyuga in the clan. As noted from other prodigies from other eye-clans (like Sasuke and Madara) we can presume that Neji inherited a very small portion of his ancestor's prowess with the byakugan. It is evident that Hamura is the ancestor of all the Hyugas since he was born with only a pure byakugan. And it is logical that he had the most powerful byakugan (aside from his mother's byakugan) since he fought and overpowered his mother with his brother's help.

      This indicates that he was among the most powerful of chakra users of all time, making his byakugan the most powerful and or unique of all time as well.

      First of all: The Sharingan-Rinnegan eye that Kaguya has is clearly different and more powerful than the eye Indra possesses. That is the reason I called Indra's eye the "diluted" or weakened form of the Sharingan we see today.

      I never said the Sharingan came from the Rinnegan, I said that the modern, weakened form of the sharingan that started with Indra came from Hagoromo.

      Second of all: Kaguya's Rinnegan functions as both a Rinnegan and a Sharingan, but the modern form of the sharingan first became noted with Indra, just like how Hagoromo was the first user of an "exclusive" Rinnegan and Hamura was the first user of an "exclusive" Byakugan.

      This meant that Neji inherited a better version of the byakugan than the rest of his clan, similar to how Sasuke's eyes were noted to be superior to Itachi's eyes by Orochimaru or how Madara's eyes were the only eyes capable of recognizing Hashirama's real bodies from his clones.

      Third of all: The byakugan is an inferior dojutsu overall. What was stated in the series was that the Byakugan had a higher raw visual prowess than the Sharingan. This simply meant that it was more powerful and useful in seeing and recognizing chakra than the Sharingan.

      The Sharingan isn't called the heaven's eye for nothing. It has the ability of god-like genjutsus that can trap an enemy from miles away if used by the right user.

      It can copy any taijutsu and ninjutsu and allow the user to use that tech (on the limits of their own abilities).

      It also has the unique ability to control the tailed beasts.

      All of this and considering the potential for it to evolve into the MS and Rinnegan make it a much more powerful dojutsu than a byakugan.

      Does that mean that all hyuga's are inferior to all uchihas? No! Since as Zetsu said an master with a stone can beat an amature with a shuriken. Simply put a master hyuga ninja can take out an average Uchiha no problem, but if we are talking about a battle between two equal Uchiha and Hyuga members that is decided on eye-power alone, the sharingan will always win since it is the superior eye power.

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      ElvinWindSword wrote: I think Hamura's kids were the creator of the Hyuga clan. Which would mess everything up in Naruto in my opinion because the Hyuga clan was inferior to the Uchiha and Senju.

      If the Hyuga was descended from Hamura then they should have more power and potential than the fodder they currently have.

      the hyuga clan are not inferior to the uchiha or senju and never have been they have always been known as the magnum force of the leaf. the byakugan has always been known as the superior dojutsu between sharingan and byakugan. the sharingan allows you to see chakra and calculate and understand how a person moves and memorize techniques but doesn't have the microvision of the byakugan or the 360(with a slight blind sight) vision also the byakugan allows the person to see through all genjutsu except for the IT

      Yes all clans in the Naruto world are inferior to the Senju (who are the strongest clan out there) and the Uchiha (who were only inferior to the Senju).

      It was clearly stated that the two strongest clans were the Uchiha and Senju, by both Hashirama Senju (in his flashback when he was talking about the village history to Sasuke) and by Obito as tobi when he was lecturing Sasuke about Leaf and Uchiha history.

      It was said that the Hidden leaf village was founded by the Senju and Uchiha AND all the clans they conquered, which includes the Hyuga.

      The Hyuga only became the best after the Uchiha massacre and the unknown fate of the Senju.

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    • Actually, it wasn't exactly the Uchiha being inferior to the Senju but Madara being inferior to Hashirama.... the clans over all were about equal. If one guy got the Senju, the other side would hire the Uchiha....

      It should also be noticed that Madara and his brother Izuna at some point started to go blind, so the Uchiha was being led by blind guys...

      Over all, the clans themselves were probably equal, it was the leaders that made the real difference....

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: Actually, it wasn't exactly the Uchiha being inferior to the Senju but Madara being inferior to Hashirama.... the clans over all were about equal. If one guy got the Senju, the other side would hire the Uchiha....

      The Uchiha were inferior to the Senju, as demonstrated in this chapter, where Uchiha even defected from their clan and submitted to the Senju.

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    • shit dude, nice reference, i was thinking they were equal too but that clearly says they were inferior, good work!

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    • This is true sadly but my question is how did the Senju clan died out if they were so powerful. Personally I think both Hashirama and Tobirama put their clan over the "hump" when they became adult to make them superior to the Uchiha.

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