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Is Kaguya Fit to be the Final Villain?

  • Basically, is Kaguya the better choice of becoming the final villain of the series over Madara Uchiha? For me, I like her more than Madara and I find her more... refreshing, like I did when Nagato was still at large, simply because they weren't Uchiha's. But in terms of a literary sense, even though I find Kaguya more interesting, Madara was definitely more in the right of claiming the title of final adversary. Why? Because he had epic foreshadowing. Even though he remained nameless until after the time-skip, his statue was seen at the end of Part I at the valley of the end.

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    • I agree with the nagato part and non uchiha.

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    • I think Kaguya is absolutely fit to be the final villain, but I would have liked the transition between Madara and her to be different. As in Madara gets defeated by Team 7, then Kaguya gets revived.

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    • Logic of Kishimoto Masashi: "Damn, I have written Madara to be too powerful and I don't know how to make sense of the main characters beating him... so lets just replace him with someone even more powerful to solve that problem, derp"

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    • I think it makes a lot of sense since it seems she practically started the shinobi world (not her son) by her actions. So to fight the "original sin" has a somewhat good fit to it. Doesn't mean I inherently like it, however. I have no problems with it, but I just don't know how they're going to fight against her. How do you fight someone who was said to be stronger than the So6P, who is the closest thing to omnipotence as possible?

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    • Taynio wrote: I think it makes a lot of sense since it seems she practically started the shinobi world (not her son) by her actions. So to fight the "original sin" has a somewhat good fit to it. Doesn't mean I inherently like it, however. I have no problems with it, but I just don't know how they're going to fight against her. How do you fight someone who was said to be stronger than the So6P, who is the closest thing to omnipotence as possible?

      That's probably setting up for some sort of a power up from Hamura.

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    • Snowlover123 wrote: That's probably setting up for some sort of a power up from Hamura.

      Makes sense. Maybe Kishimoto's idea of equivalent powers in these final battles is "said person" vs. offspring? Kabuto stated Madara resembled Hagoromo in power by combination of Senju and Uchiha. Naruto and Sasuke (Ashura + Indra) seemed to be the only ones on par with him.

      Now, Naruto and Sasuke just need some Hamura in the mix and they would be the equivalent of Kaguya's sons. That would confirm the notion.

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    • Anyway, I enjoyed Madara as the final villain. It just felt fulfilling after all the foreshadowing and backstory with Obito and the Akatsuki. He seemed like the perfect balance between the historical mythology of the Naruto universe and the everyday Naruto world. He orchestrated everything via Tobi and Nagato, being the mastermind behind the Fourth Great War, all the while a representative of the legendary Sage of Six Paths' power.

      Now, with Kaguya, the scale's tipping all the way towards nebulous mythos and legend. Sure, she's connected to the Shinju and Tailed Beasts, but we were pretty much clueless about her specifically, until Hagoromo described her to Naruto and Sasuke only a few chapters ago. That's pretty deep backstory that hasn't seen any real development in the story until just now, and to see her as the final villain (for now, lol) is depreciating.

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    • I like Kaguya as a symbol of power. Naruto has always struggled with actual strong females, and kaguya is terrifyingly strong.

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    • Well she isn't the final villain so it doesn't really matter, Kishi has made it pretty clear that Sasuke is going to be the FV hell he even says this in the RtN interview

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    • Too bad she's not the final villain.

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    • @Gojira, source?

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    • Im guessin either indra or asura or Sage of 6 paths himself will somehow show up and stop this cuz of right now there is NO way team 7 can win.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Gojira, source?

      Source is Masashi Kishimoto himself. He said in an interview in January that Sasuke will be the last one dealt with by this manga. To quote him, the story will focus on three things; "about the Ten-Tails, about Madara, and about Sasuke."

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    • No mention of Kaguya then. Unless either:

      • the Ten-Tails is Kaguya
      • he changed his mind
      • purposely omitted the mention of her for a surprise factor
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    • Elveonora wrote: No mention of Kaguya then. Unless either:

      • the Ten-Tails is Kaguya
      • he changed his mind
      • purposely omitted the mention of her for a surprise factor

      Plots don't just change instantaneously like you seem to think they do. He likely has factored Kaguya into the "About Madara" section, since, you know, the entire arc has focused on him. She has only been a thing for a chapter, and as someone said on the talk page; you have no idea how long she'll last, if Madara will rise up and fight off her influence, or what will happen.

      Just read and enjoy.

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    • Kishimoto has said plenty of things in interviews, not all of them end up happening.

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    • TricksterKing wrote: Kishimoto has said plenty of things in interviews, not all of them end up happening.

      Name a few.

      I'm dying to know which.

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    • "just read and enjoy" oh, don't worry. I enjoyed the chapter great deal. Kaguya has this unique sex-appeal about her. Like a rose with thorns. Dangerously seductive, yet intimidating. Pretty things too may bite, makes them that much more attractive because of that ;)

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    • him talking about sakura getting more focus was in a few interviews for a couple of years, he completely forgot about that, also there's no reason for him to stick to making sasuke the final obstacle just because he said it at one point.

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    • Elveonora wrote: "just read and enjoy" oh, don't worry. I enjoyed the chapter great deal. Kaguya has this unique sex-appeal about her. Like a rose with thorns. Dangerously seductive, yet intimidating. Pretty things too may bite, makes them that much more attractive because of that ;)

      You know, I actually had a friend of mine who said something similar xD I don't get her "sex appeal", but, as the saying goes, whatever floats your boat hahaha

      TricksterKing wrote: him talking about sakura getting more focus was in a few interviews for a couple of years, he completely forgot about that, also there's no reason for him to stick to making sasuke the final obstacle just because he said it at one point.

      I think Sakura has gotten plenty more focus. Keep in mind "focus" doesn't mean plot relevance or an arc dedicated to her. It just means she'll be front and center more often, which she undoubtedly has been. She was only seen briefly in the early war stages and even in the initial battle against the Ten-Tails. Now she's practically on the front lines.

      That doesn't even come close to proving your point.

      Sasuke is a huge plot point for Naruto. Ignoring that is foolish from both a reader and a writer's perspective. Sasuke will undoubtedly be Naruto's final obstacle. As a villain, rival, or friend, I don't know; but Kishimoto has been hinting at a final fight since Part II started, so my money's on that.

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    • TricksterKing wrote: him talking about sakura getting more focus was in a few interviews for a couple of years, he completely forgot about that, also there's no reason for him to stick to making sasuke the final obstacle just because he said it at one point.

      I guess you can say Kishi tried by giving her the strength to punch down a mountain.

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    • Guys, is it just me, or does this finale remind me of the finale of Digimon Frontier?

      Im not trying to be off topic,but its just a wonder.

      Expecting that this would be the final villain

      Which is really not.

      Biblical base(In a way)

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    • Lol Naruto to digimon great

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    • Just saying, thats all, only because of peoples expectations of being the final villain.

      Its very similar.

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    • Nah I don't see a similarities.

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    • Oh well, just a saying.

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    • Understandable

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    • I gotta be honest, I do think Kaguya fits pretty well, I find her very innovative to the series, being the first big bad female for the Naruto series.

      She works.

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    • she does 1st powerful female actually in naruto.

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    • HagoromoOtsutsuki wrote: she does 1st powerful female actually in naruto.

      Considered to be the most powerful of ninjas.

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    • Spyrocks wrote: Considered to be the most powerful of ninjas.

      lol That's the thing. Kaguya isn't even a ninja really; she's so beyond that. Consider that neither ninshuu/ninjutsu nor the concept of ninja/shinobi had existed yet in her time. And she already seems to manipulate her surroundings without even weaving signs or uttering any techniques. She is simply and quite literally, a demon goddess overlord :D

      P.S. Then again, who knows? If we see her weaving signs or doing more ninja-ish things then maybe. But if even Madara is nothing to her, I don't even want to know how destructive her formal techniques are!

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    • Madara was the mastermind behind the Akatsuki and Obito and everything that happened so he was fit to e the final villain.

      However if it turns out that Kaguya was somehow controlling Madara and was responsible for his plan then she has the right to be the final villain.

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    • That would be too cliche. "Kaguya controls Madara > Madara controls Obito > Obito controls Nagato" etc.

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    • Hagoromo 1234 wrote: Madara was the mastermind behind the Akatsuki and Obito and everything that happened so he was fit to e the final villain.

      However if it turns out that Kaguya was somehow controlling Madara and was responsible for his plan then she has the right to be the final villain.

      She already has the right considering that she took it, and no one can do a damn thing about it. Besides, she is the most powerful being to exist in this entire story, if anyone has the right it's her.

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    • Elveonora wrote: That would be too cliche. "Kaguya controls Madara > Madara controls Obito > Obito controls Nagato" etc.

      Its all domino effect Elveonora, evil has no end.

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    • We still haven't seen her full personality to be commenting on whether she should be or she shouldn't

      Both Madara and Obito have shown they are capable of being Final Villain..(Yes, Obito was a great villain imo until he got tNJ)

      We need to see more of her personality to comment on it...

      Based on destructive capacity, well we havent seen anything yet, we know she somehow managed to cause a tenpenchii and cast an IT without being the shinju's jinchuriki, and then there's that last panel where she somehow transforms the landscape around her. Impressive so far, but we still need to see the full extent of it

      Although, so far we have seen Kishi fodderize female characters who is to say he wont do the same with her

      Personally though seeing a non-uchiha as the final villain is much better

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    • The Winter King wrote: We still haven't seen her full personality to be commenting on whether she should be or she shouldn't

      Both Madara and Obito have shown they are capable of being Final Villain..(Yes, Obito was a great villain imo until he got tNJ)

      We need to see more of her personality to comment on it...

      Based on destructive capacity, well we havent seen anything yet, we know she somehow managed to cause a tenpenchii and cast an IT without being the shinju's jinchuriki, and then there's that last panel where she somehow transforms the landscape around her. Impressive so far, but we still need to see the full extent of it

      Although, so far we have seen Kishi fodderize female characters who is to say he wont do the same with her

      Personally though seeing a non-uchiha as the final villain is much better

      We have seen a little from Chapter 679, she is like an obsessed mother.

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    • Regarding Kaguya's personality, isn't it likely that she used to be a good and genuine person? She did seek something similar to world peace after all, prior to eating the Shinju fruit.

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    • Artofcreation wrote:

      Snowlover123 wrote: That's probably setting up for some sort of a power up from Hamura.

      Makes sense. Maybe Kishimoto's idea of equivalent powers in these final battles is "said person" vs. offspring? Kabuto stated Madara resembled Hagoromo in power by combination of Senju and Uchiha. Naruto and Sasuke (Ashura + Indra) seemed to be the only ones on par with him.

      Now, Naruto and Sasuke just need some Hamura in the mix and they would be the equivalent of Kaguya's sons. That would confirm the notion.

      Actually logically speaking all they would both need is to each be powered up to Hagoromo's level. its safe to assume that Hagoromo had half of kaguya's power and hamura had the other half which would mean they were equal in power. so all that would be needed is for Naruto and sasuke to each have both the eyes and the senjutsu of the sage

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    • Artofcreation wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote: Considered to be the most powerful of ninjas.

      lol That's the thing. Kaguya isn't even a ninja really; she's so beyond that. Consider that neither ninshuu/ninjutsu nor the concept of ninja/shinobi had existed yet in her time. And she already seems to manipulate her surroundings without even weaving signs or uttering any techniques. She is simply and quite literally, a demon goddess overlord :D

      P.S. Then again, who knows? If we see her weaving signs or doing more ninja-ish things then maybe. But if even Madara is nothing to her, I don't even want to know how destructive her formal techniques are!

      If she truly doesn't know any ninshu or ninjutsu maybe thats how they will defeat her. if they can each get a sizable increase in power all they would have to do is fight her. she would not be able to use taijutsu against them if she is not a ninja so it would mean she would be all chakra where in they can use chakra as well as taijutsu

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      We have seen a little from Chapter 679, she is like an obsessed mother.

      I noticed that, and to be honest that sought of personality doesnt make you fit for being a final villain. She should call 911 instead and get herself a hospital bed for mental treatment

      Great personalities who could have been final villains- Itachi -i know he is a good guy, but his personality before the truth about him was revealed suited him to be a villain although i am happy seeing that he isnt the bad guy

      Nagato (mainly Yahiko's body because of its looks)

      Madara Uchiha and Obito Uchiha

      I am not counting Orochimaru since his personality is that of a snake who hides in the shadows and strikes at the right moment, thats not how a conventional Final villain acts

      As for Kabuto, i am gonna be honest his back story and his personality which he copied from Orcohimaru in order to "find himself" are so depressing that it doesnt give out the villain type flair

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Actually logically speaking all they would both need is to each be powered up to Hagoromo's level. its safe to assume that Hagoromo had half of kaguya's power and hamura had the other half which would mean they were equal in power. so all that would be needed is for Naruto and sasuke to each have both the eyes and the senjutsu of the sage

      All true, lets hope that this time their power-up if there is one comes from some sort of training and not from someone's ass

      Although there was an image of Kakashi with the rinnegan at the start of chapter, it would be nice to see that happen in real life


      Anyways, seeing that all 4 Hokages are alive, Obito and Kakashi are also alive and with Sasuke and Naruto already using the Sage's power i doubt they would give those kids another power-up

      I mean if she is the final villain then i doubt kishi would make this fight so easy by giving them a convenient power-up

      P.S

      i know Saukra's alive as well, but lets be honest she's as good as dead

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    • Btw Black zetsu said that the people caught in the genjutsu will get transformed into white zetsu army i.e Kaguya's army, what the heck would she need an army for?

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    • The Winter King wrote: Btw Black zetsu said that the people caught in the genjutsu will get transformed into white zetsu army i.e Kaguya's army, what the heck would she need an army for?

      i started a post about that. i asked If she is something other than human based on her words of This Earth made me think that maybe she is an alien or maybe a human from another dimension. if she intends to make humans her army it would stand to reason she intends to have them go to war with someone but who? we do not know

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:


      i started a post about that. i asked If she is something other than human based on her words of This Earth made me think that maybe she is an alien or maybe a human from another dimension. if she intends to make humans her army it would stand to reason she intends to have them go to war with someone but who? we do not know

      if thats the case then Naruto went from awesome Ninjas to the Recycle Bin in my computer
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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Actually logically speaking all they would both need is to each be powered up to Hagoromo's level. its safe to assume that Hagoromo had half of kaguya's power and hamura had the other half which would mean they were equal in power. so all that would be needed is for Naruto and sasuke to each have both the eyes and the senjutsu of the sage

      All true, lets hope that this time their power-up if there is one comes from some sort of training and not from someone's ass

      Although there was an image of Kakashi with the rinnegan at the start of chapter, it would be nice to see that happen in real life


      Anyways, seeing that all 4 Hokages are alive, Obito and Kakashi are also alive and with Sasuke and Naruto already using the Sage's power i doubt they would give those kids another power-up

      I mean if she is the final villain then i doubt kishi would make this fight so easy by giving them a convenient power-up

      P.S

      i know Saukra's alive as well, but lets be honest she's as good as dead


      With out a convenient power up there is no way they will win. unless Naruto pulls Ninshu out of his ass and then uses Kaguya's power stealing from the enslaved peoples jutsu against her. a few dead kage will not level the playing field and they were not exactly kicking Madara's ass. he was basically toying with them. they were doing a good job fighting him but he still was leagues ahead of them. and she is leagues ahead of Madara so the logical conclusion is that they are going to get a convenient power up it would be a huge power up for sasuke but not as much for Naruto being that he is already the 10 tails jinchuuriki(since has all of the 9 tailed beasts in him. the only thing he is lacking is the Gedo Mazou)

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      unless Naruto pulls Ninshu out of his ass


      Laughed my ass of when i read that line XD

      You are right though, they cant win without an ass-pull or an extremely awesome concept introduced at the last moment (which is something that has never been done in naruto before)

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      unless Naruto pulls Ninshu out of his ass


      Laughed my ass of when i read that line XD

      You are right though, they cant win without an ass-pull or an extremely awesome concept introduced at the last moment (which is something that has never been done in naruto before)

      All though i could see Naruto pulling a Talk No Jutsu on her ass and then Sasuke saying WTF how is it so easy for you to talk people out of shit and then Sasuke using the Rinnegan to absorb Kaguya into him or something like that which would be away for everyone who wants Sasuke to be the final villain

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      unless Naruto pulls Ninshu out of his ass


      Laughed my ass of when i read that line XD

      You are right though, they cant win without an ass-pull or an extremely awesome concept introduced at the last moment (which is something that has never been done in naruto before)

      All though i could see Naruto pulling a Talk No Jutsu on her ass and then Sasuke saying WTF how is it so easy for you to talk people out of shit and then Sasuke using the Rinnegan to absorb Kaguya into him or something like that which would be away for everyone who wants Sasuke to be the final villain

      that got me thinking. what if Naruto is secretly a genius in genjutsu(he doesn't know he is). and thats how he has been using Talk no Jutsu all these years. what if Talk No jutsu is just a weaker vocal form of Kotoamatsukami and that all these years he has been simply altering a person with Genjutsu

      just joking but i could see kishi pulling something like that

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    • for this whole question the answer is the final villain can be whoever kishi wants it to be.

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote:

      We have seen a little from Chapter 679, she is like an obsessed mother.

      I noticed that, and to be honest that sought of personality doesnt make you fit for being a final villain. She should call 911 instead and get herself a hospital bed for mental treatment

      Great personalities who could have been final villains- Itachi -i know he is a good guy, but his personality before the truth about him was revealed suited him to be a villain although i am happy seeing that he isnt the bad guy

      Nagato (mainly Yahiko's body because of its looks)

      Madara Uchiha and Obito Uchiha

      I am not counting Orochimaru since his personality is that of a snake who hides in the shadows and strikes at the right moment, thats not how a conventional Final villain acts

      As for Kabuto, i am gonna be honest his back story and his personality which he copied from Orcohimaru in order to "find himself" are so depressing that it doesnt give out the villain type flair

      That is true about Kaguya in way, there is still a sense of mystery to her, something that Naruto doesn't entirely do, because basically the hole series, is full of explanation.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      That is true about Kaguya in way, there is still a sense of mystery to her, something that Naruto doesn't entirely do, because basically the hole series, is full of explanation.

      Most of the series, not the whole

      We still haven't seen how sasuke is able to use his new techniques without training, how naruto is able to keep this mode up for so long since even in nine-tails tailed beast mode his best time was around 8 minutes or maybe more because he lacked practice

      Also how on earth did Itachi discover Totsuka blade and Yata mirror

      How was madara able to use Kamui while being the shinju's jinchuriki while Obito wasn't able to?

      And some other stuff that isn't coming to my mind

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    • I didn't read all the comment but debating about it just let you know won't change the fact that she is probably the final villain of the series.

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote:

      That is true about Kaguya in way, there is still a sense of mystery to her, something that Naruto doesn't entirely do, because basically the hole series, is full of explanation.

      Most of the series, not the whole

      We still haven't seen how sasuke is able to use his new techniques without training, how naruto is able to keep this mode up for so long since even in nine-tails tailed beast mode his best time was around 8 minutes or maybe more because he lacked practice

      Also how on earth did Itachi discover Totsuka blade and Yata mirror

      How was madara able to use Kamui while being the shinju's jinchuriki while Obito wasn't able to?

      And some other stuff that isn't coming to my mind

      they kind of half ass explained about obito and kamui. the Rinnegan was to powerful and as such he had to conserve his energy as much as possible

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    • He was able to warp with Kamui easily until he became the shinju's jinchuriki. There was no clear reason why.

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    • Questionaredude wrote: He was able to warp with Kamui easily until he became the shinju's jinchuriki. There was no clear reason why.

      An author's whim. We all know that if Obito could use Kamui and the Shinju's abilities at the same time, he would've won chapters ago by using a suicide technique.

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    • It's called plot.

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    • Questionaredude wrote: He was able to warp with Kamui easily until he became the shinju's jinchuriki. There was no clear reason why.


      well when he was talking to sakura in the kamui dimension he stated that he could only transplant one of madara's Rinnegan because it was far to difficult to use both and that it was still to powerful of an eye it would stand to reason that it would be difficult to do so when being the shinju Jinchuuriki. also maybe he felt he did not need it because he was effectively immortal

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Questionaredude wrote: He was able to warp with Kamui easily until he became the shinju's jinchuriki. There was no clear reason why.


      well when he was talking to sakura in the kamui dimension he stated that he could only transplant one of madara's Rinnegan because it was far to difficult to use both and that it was still to powerful of an eye it would stand to reason that it would be difficult to do so when being the shinju Jinchuuriki. also maybe he felt he did not need it because he was effectively immortal

      No, he said he couldn't warp Sakura and himself back because it was too difficult with the tiny amount of power he had left. It nothing to do with the Rinnegan, where did you even get that??

      Like Questionaredude said, the was never any reason given, other than it a excuse for him to weakened for the sake of the plot. He very clearly stated he couldn't do it, not that he didn't want to. That also becomes bullshit after Madara effortlessly teleported while a jinchuriki. So not only is it a half-assed attempt at depowering Obito, it isn't even consistent.

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    • Obito specifically said that the Rinnegan is far to powerful. he said i also wasn't able to transplant the rinnegan into both eyes Even just this one left eye... i had lost to its overwhelming chakra and ability

      and though i am not its original owner i have survived and made it all this way with just one eye

      what he was saying is that the Rinnegan is overwhelmingly powerful. he survived by only transplanting one Rinnegan. before he had the shinju in him he was capable of using Kamui but after he was not shown using it so its safe to assume that it used to much chakra to control the shinju either that or he did not fill like he needed to use kamui because he was all but immortal

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote: its safe to assume that it used to much chakra to control the shinju either that or he did not fill like he needed to use kamui because he was all but immortal

      The first part may be correct but the second is certainly incorrect as Obito himself stated that he could not use Kamui.

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    • Hagoromo 1234 wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote: its safe to assume that it used to much chakra to control the shinju either that or he did not fill like he needed to use kamui because he was all but immortal

      The first part may be correct but the second is certainly incorrect as Obito himself stated that he could not use Kamui.

      i am not familiar with him saying that post the page and chapter

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:


      they kind of half ass explained about obito and kamui. the Rinnegan was to powerful and as such he had to conserve his energy as much as possible

      Thats just speculation, it is not confirmed. Obito said being the juubi's host makes him unable to "slip" through things

      He didn't say nothing about a rinnegan

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    • Elveonora wrote: It's called plot.

      True, it might have been done to not make obito the final villain, but that still doesn't explain how madara did it

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:


      they kind of half ass explained about obito and kamui. the Rinnegan was to powerful and as such he had to conserve his energy as much as possible

      Thats just speculation, it is not confirmed. Obito said being the juubi's host makes him unable to "slip" through things

      He didn't say nothing about a rinnegan

      Link me to the manga page it says that because when i looked it up all he said was he could not be careless

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    • Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Link me to the manga page it says that because when i looked it up all he said was he could not be careless

      <snip - no>

      "Now that the juubi is in me, i can't travel through dimensions"

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Link me to the manga page it says that because when i looked it up all he said was he could not be careless

      <snip - no>

      "Now that the juubi is in me, i can't travel through dimensions"

      Someone get him a towel.

      Because he got told... all over this floor.

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    • the translation i have doesn't say jack shit about not being able to use kamui

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    • The Winter King wrote:

      Actionmanrandell wrote:

      Link me to the manga page it says that because when i looked it up all he said was he could not be careless

      <snip - no>

      "Now that the juubi is in me, i can't travel through dimensions"

      that is the thing there are different translations. for instance this page says otherwise: <snip - no>

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    • That translation is very obviously wrong, you can read what he said on his wiki page. He says nothing about the Rinnegan being in the way, and nothing about not needing Kamui. He very clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that he can't use Kamui because he is the Shinju's Jinchuriki. Which, again, was shown to be bullshit.

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    • Manga bee has the best translations. also you can look it up on many different translations where it says the exact same thing

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      1. Posting links to illegal websites is against the rules
      2. Seelentau translated it as being unable to use Kamui because of being the Shinju's jinchuuriki
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    • What, exactly, don't you get?? The line is on his page and the chapters page, go read it. It, for damn sure, does not say that. As Elveonora said, Seelentau personally translated that line, so I'll doubt your "best translators" just this once. It's like you refuse to go read them because you that's not what they says.

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    • Okay, back on topic:

      I think Kaguya is not fit.

      Sure, she does bring a lot of power, but hmpf - it's Naruto. Kishi pulls one OP ability after another, so there is no meaning to "power" anymore, imo. What's still there and always was is determination. And motives. The whole Naruto series deals with human emotions and the influences of love and hate and such dualities. This was always there, right from chapter 1.

      Now, look at Madara. He, being an Uchiha, is described as having the deepest emotions possible. It started with love and turned into utter hatred and rejection. Being one of two founders of the present Ninja WORLD - that's true, Konoha is pretty much the prototype of the current Shinobi systems - he represents the failed, dark side of the Naruto universe. Solving his problems would truly mean overcoming pain and lead to peace. Screw Kishi for disposing of him this way. If anyone, only Sasuke is a competition for the title of a villain, but seriously, what impact does Sasuke have on the Ninja world? Next to none. He's only as important as Naruto considers him. Well, until now.

      What exactly does Kaguya bring to the table? Basically, she appeared from another land, so she surely doesn't feel the pain of this world as Madara, for example. Remember Pain's words? Know Pain! Kishi completely destroyed the message behind Nagato/Pain with Kaguya. Then, how did she deal with the world? She didn't come up with a plan to solve the problems, like the original Madara before leaving Konoha did. She just took the biggest hammer available, the Shinju fruit, and smashed the world to pieces, which she also took control over. See, that's the old power-hungry-villain-story we know from every other story. Naruto always kept in mind because so far, the villains weren't purely evil, but just had twisted solutions to the problematic of the Naruto universe.

      How will it turn out? Will Team Seven now overpower Kaguya and everything will be fine because the Shinju will be gone? So the solution to power-hungry beings is more power? Is everything good after Kaguya, the source of all evil, is gone? Does that mean you have to kill beings for the greater good? Isn't this was Naruto tried to change? And what about Sasuke? How can he possibly be a more tormented character than Madara, or more powerful than Kaguya? Hell, he doesn't even know love to beings outside of family, like Obito did!

      Well, if Kishi doesn't come up with a hell of a background story for Kaguya (which he thankfully hinted in the Hago panel), he crashed more than 360 chapters into the wall with bringing Kaguya back. My three cents, enjoy! (^.^)

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    • Lord Otto wrote:

      Well, if Kishi doesn't come up with a hell of a background story for Kaguya (which he thankfully hinted in the Hago panel) (^.^)

      Well put.

      Hinted what in the Hagoromo panel?

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    • I really hope he does give Kaguya a good backstory, plus I also want to learn more about Hagaromo's brother Hamura.

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    • Spirit freak wrote: I really hope he does give Kaguya a good backstory, plus I also want to learn more about Hagaromo's brother Hamura.

      Same here, it took Kishi a while to even reveal his name so it maybe possible that Hamura will have a big role in current events

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    • After this current chapter, i think even konohamaru would be a better villain.

      Her back story isn't as good as that of Nagato,obito,Madara and Kabuto

      Madara was the perfect villain, although in my opinion Obito was a bit better for the role.

      Kaguya is an epic fail, but from what i hear it seems she wont be the final villain, someone said that Sasuke is going to be the final villain

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    • After the latest chapter where i learned Madara is a biter..... I've lost my respect for him being a villain. lol

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    • Honestly, I like her, cause normally in the series, even if a woman is strong, they are put in situations where they seem weak.

      Greatest example is Sakura. In part 1, she was noted to be pretty good for a genin (especially one just out of the academy) but she was pitted in an A-rank mission not fit for a genin, against Orochimaru, then Gaara. In Part 2, she started off okay, but then Kishi doesn't even use her properly after the battle with Sasori and Orochimaru's hideout. By the time she's a Kage Level, the battles are in God level. (the worst part is that she actually has a lot of the qualities necessary for being a heroine, Kishi just doesn't use her)

      Tayuya was basically killed really fast after Temari showed up, giving her near victory nothing.

      Kurenai was said to be equal to Itachi in genjutsu SKILL (though he has better techniques -so even if their skill is equal, Itachi had the better weapons & he was better in everything else)..... so even though she should be amazing, we don't see much of her

      Then there is Tsunade, where in part 1, we didn't see her full abilities and then had to deal with her trauma. In part 2, during the invasion of Pain, because she was so busy healing the village, she couldn't really fight. When we finally get to see her (and another powerful female, Mei Terumi) in battle, they are pit against Madara who was already OP when he came out.

      Basically, even if the female is actually strong, they will be matched up badly or put in some sort of position where they would be useless.

      Sure, off screen, they might do great stuff (like on their missions and things that we won't ever see), but in the scenes we actually get to see, they won't be put in positions where they could actually do something.....

      That is why I like Kaguya, she's a female who is actually put in a great position to show case her power (well Sakura had 2 moments, but considering how long she was in the series, it's just not fair)..... the only downside is that she will somehow lose

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    • Nope. Kaguya will win, since she is just Hinata in rage form. Because Naruto never openly reciprocated Hinata's romantic feelings, her being manifested into the terrifying form of Kaguya, which then travelled back in time in order to create the perfect circumstances. Evidence is her Byakugan, which was retained, and the super Rinnegan evolved from her immense need. Her feelings were so great that she transcended spacetime and became her own ancestor.

      Now, Kaguya will defeat Team 7 and absorb all their chakra. She will then rejoin with Hinata's cocoon and unite their beings. That way, Hinata would have Naruto inside her forever while she dreams of their mutual eternal love.

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    • @Artofcreation. That's just creepy... besides, not a lot of time passed since Hinata confessed to Naruto and so much crap has happened that he didn't have a good time to reply. She deserves more than a simple "yes" or "no" said quickly in passing. He kept on having to go to things that kept him from having a decent conversation with her.

      It took her years to confess, I'm pretty sure she's willing to wait for a few weeks for an answer, since they are stuck in a war & the fate of the world is on the line..... Naruto kinda does have a legit reason for not answering her yet.

      If he said he loved her during the battle, something bad would probably happen to her (one of the things you never confess in a serious situation), and if he wants to reject her, it's best not to do that when he life is in danger.......

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: ...

      That post was a joke. You know that, right?

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    • Marc Zaddy wrote: That post was a joke. You know that, right?

      I know that it was a joke, but it sounded like you were also wishing for Naruto to answer Hinata's feelings....
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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      Marc Zaddy wrote: That post was a joke. You know that, right?

      I know that it was a joke, but it sounded like you were also wishing for Naruto to answer Hinata's feelings....

      What?? I didn't write that. Also, if you knew it was a joke then you should know nothing wrote there is serious.

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    • Hum...to me Kaguya's entrance as the final villain, was eerily reminiscent to how Hades manifested in the end of Saint Seiya, The Lost Canvas. Although that manga did it better than what Kishi did. In that manga, despite the fact, that Alone was the "villain", and the main story revolved around Alone, Tenma and Sasha, Hades was always a lingering, yet relevant presence and any Saint Seiya fan, who's worth their salt knew he'd surface as the final villain.

      If Kaguya's story had some foreshadowing from earlier stages, even if a small one, the twist would have been that much more enjoyable.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: If he said he loved her during the battle, something bad would probably happen to her (one of the things you never confess in a serious situation), and if he wants to reject her, it's best not to do that when he life is in danger.......

      Exactly. You see? If she didn't expand her options, then she's left to face a lose-lose situation. My theory is the only one that explains every significant Kaguya-related plot hole. It also fully justifies why Kaguya is most fit to be final villain, since Hinata is by far the greatest pseudo-antagonist the series can offer thus far.

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    • Except what people are missing out is that since Kaguya is the Ten-Tails, she was present in one form or another since the first appearances of Gedo Mazo or even Black Zetsu, which was the end of Part I.

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    • i think the final villain will be orochimaru. i mean, he was all of a sudden like a threat and now he isnt? and wasnt his original host supposed to be kimimaro kaguya, (underline kaguya) so dont u think he can come back?

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    • Orochimaru cannot be villian anymore he is now 100% weaker than Sasuke Kaguya will not fit for being fina villian :( she is in side of Naruto so...I think Madara most fit because of his...everything :D

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    • she would be a OK villian is she had more of a back story. I just feel like she came out of no were.

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    • Gojirafan430 wrote: Well she isn't the final villain so it doesn't really matter, Kishi has made it pretty clear that Sasuke is going to be the FV hell he even says this in the RtN interview

      I think what he ment by sasuke was sasuke final fight or what sasukes planning to do after the war. that doesn't make sasuke a villian. don't get me wrong, I think sasuke would make a great final villian. :D

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    • Marc Zaddy wrote: What?? I didn't write that. Also, if you knew it was a joke then you should know nothing wrote there is serious.

      I meant "he"... the "you" was a typo, and I thought that the joke implied Artofcreation's personal dissatisfaction about the situation.... writing a joke because he/she was unsatisfied about Naruto not answering her after all this time.

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    • Bloodless-weasel wrote: she would be a OK villian is she had more of a back story. I just feel like she came out of no were.

      She isn't even in side of Madara and Obito she is in side of Naruto

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    • What?... seriously, some of the stuff posted here since the forums were opened is mind-boggling.

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    • no i mean what if orochimaru brought kimimaro back, or what if he somehow was able to come back by himself? i think and or at least HOPE that kimimaro will come back. and orochimaru had no use of his justu b4 and now he does. and we never saw his sage mode, tho most say he doesnt have one, i dont think that he would let kabuto one up him. i thik hes more of a threat than most realize. i think kishimoto is just taking away the attention from him for awhile

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    • Why do people keep linking to scanlation sites? Please stop, they are not permitted here.

      Also, stop pyramid quoting. When responding to a post with a lot of quotes in them, please remove the quoted area after you've typed a reply below it, this way people can see your reply and do not need to scroll endlessly to see it.

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    • Nope Orochimaru is now old guy i think his White Snake mode or how it's called replaces Sage Mode and nah I don't really think cuz Obito + Madara is weaker than Oochimaru and Kimimaru right???No if Obito is stronger than Itachi and Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi and I'm not counted Madara no insulting here I am fan boy of Obito I watch Naruto only because of him but i think Opening 15 was last one so...It had spoilers and no scene Orochimaru for end but it shows that Obito will turn good in manga and Madara will be final villian << Spoiler TEEHEE :D

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    • One True Slash wrote:

      No if Obito is stronger than Itachi

      Not counting the time when obito was juubi's jinchuriki, but during his time as Tobi, he said that if Itachi had known everything about him then he(Himself a.k.a Obito) would undoubtedly been dead by then.

      So i am not really an Obito hater here, but i just thought you should know that those two are almost equally matched(atleast from the statement made by Obito himself and from their own feats)

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    • The Winter King wrote: Not counting the time when obito was juubi's jinchuriki, but during his time as Tobi, he said that if Itachi had known everything about him then he(Himself a.k.a Obito) would undoubtedly been dead by then.

      So i am not really an Obito hater here, but i just thought you should know that those two are almost equally matched(atleast from the statement made by Obito himself and from their own feats)

      Umm, you may just be taking things out of context here though.

      It may be talking more about Itachi's strategies, cause Obito at the time wasn't expecting an assault... so it was a surprise attack....

      If Itachi knew everything about Obito, his surprise attack might not have failed...

      If Obito expected an attack, the outcome might be different.

      The Naruto-verse isn't exactly black and white in how power struggles go... it seems it's a mix of type, plus level, plus skill, plus luck, plus other factors....

      For instance, Itachi believes that he can't beat Jiraya, yet Orochimaru believes that he can beat Jiraya. But Orochimaru can't beat Itachi.

      A lot of the battles in the Naruto-verse are more like rock paper scissors in some ways. Except in the extreme cases like Madara, it seems that most of the elite are the same level and it depends more on their type than actually being at a higher level.

      Course, even if you are weaker than your enemy, you could still beat them. Luck (good or bad), chance, carelessness, power, skill, technique, type..... there are so many factors in battle than it's really hard to really say who is stronger than who......

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    • villians over time: the Akatsuki->obito & madara->madara only->kaguya

      Now who's next? The Devil?!

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    • Villians over time Akatsuki>Madara>Obito & Madara>Madara Only

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    • One True Slash wrote: Villians over time Akatsuki>Madara>Obito & Madara>Madara Only

      what r u trying to say?

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    • One True Slash wrote: Villians over time Akatsuki>Madara>Obito & Madara>Madara Only

      You realize that it isn't unusual for a series to have more than 1 villain...

      It's the final boss that really changed.... for many years, people assumed that Obito was Madara & thought that he would be the final boss... so the guy that called himself Tobi & the name Uchiha Madara were both thought of as the final villains for a long time (except people thought that they were one and the same).

      Even when Obito was found out to not be Madara, it didn't change much cause both of them became what everybody thought was the final boss....

      Then Kaguya came along......

      Also, Madara & Obito technically count as the Villainous Akatsuki leaders (cause of their involvement in it)

      Basically the Villains over time should be Mizuki -> Zabuza & group, plus Gato -> Orochimaru & Team -> Akatsuki -> Kaguya

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      One True Slash wrote: Villians over time Akatsuki>Madara>Obito & Madara>Madara Only

      You realize that it isn't unusual for a series to have more than 1 villain...

      It's the final boss that really changed.... for many years, people assumed that Obito was Madara & thought that he would be the final boss... so the guy that called himself Tobi & the name Uchiha Madara were both thought of as the final villains for a long time (except people thought that they were one and the same).

      Even when Obito was found out to not be Madara, it didn't change much cause both of them became what everybody thought was the final boss....

      Then Kaguya came along......

      Also, Madara & Obito technically count as the Villainous Akatsuki leaders (cause of their involvement in it)

      Basically the Villains over time should be Mizuki -> Zabuza & group, plus Gato -> Orochimaru & Team -> Akatsuki -> Kaguya

      ...Kaguya is not fucking villian and they not villians too they basicly trying to recive Peace in there own ways well accept Deidara Sasori Kisame and Kakuzu & Hidan -_- actually there's no final boss accpet Madara...TEEHEE

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    • One True Slash wrote:

      Bloodless-weasel wrote: she would be a OK villian is she had more of a back story. I just feel like she came out of no were.

      She isn't even in side of Madara and Obito she is in side of Naruto

      how is she in side naruto?!
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    • Umm doa She is mother of Sage he is probably Uzumaki naruto's mother's family

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    • Strange person you are, aren't you?

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    • She kind of came out of nowhere but it's a great change. Also the fact that a woman is the final villain when Kishimoto spent the series with only like one or two female characters that could hold their own is great. She has proven to be a force to be reckoned with.

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    • OriginalFanBoy2 wrote: She kind of came out of nowhere but it's a great change. Also the fact that a woman is the final villain when Kishimoto spent the series with only like one or two female characters that could hold their own is great. She has proven to be a force to be reckoned with.

      I know, right? All the strong women were matched up badly, or put in positions/situations that they couldn't fight in. It wasn't always even them being too weak, but their positions being bad.

      Now, the strongest person ever is a woman.

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    • I think we should all come to expect the "WHAT A TWIST!" scenario. It pretty much follows the same time-tested shonen formula of -We Gotta Powah!!- thats kept us reading for years now. I knew something knee-jerk was going to happen to Madara despite all the build up. It's been a decade, I'm ready to see how the story ends. Let Kaguya be the final boss. I'd rather see her take on the wonder twins than Sephara.

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    • Well problem is we still have one more villain to go after her which is Sasuke.

      It seems that Kishi is building up him to be the FV since he plans on "tearing down the shinobi system and creating a new one" and "erasing the past" by killing Naruto. I believe Kishi also confirmed that NvS is going to happen which is unlikely until after Kaguya is dealt with.

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    • Gojirafan430 wrote: Well problem is we still have one more villain to go after her which is Sasuke.

      It seems that Kishi is building up him to be the FV since he plans on "tearing down the shinobi system and creating a new one" and "erasing the past" by killing Naruto. I believe Kishi also confirmed that NvS is going to happen which is unlikely until after Kaguya is dealt with.

      here goes a new transmigrants battle

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    • Gojirafan430 wrote: Well problem is we still have one more villain to go after her which is Sasuke.

      It seems that Kishi is building up him to be the FV since he plans on "tearing down the shinobi system and creating a new one" and "erasing the past" by killing Naruto. I believe Kishi also confirmed that NvS is going to happen which is unlikely until after Kaguya is dealt with.

      But Sasuke doesn't have to be an enemy for the Naruto vs Sasuke fight. It could be the rival's fight instead. (In Shonen, the rival is usually a few steps ahead of the protagonist until they lose to the protagonist in which they then have to catch up to him).

      Sasuke seems to have a political agenda, not a battle agenda. Naruto vs Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean "hero vs villain" or make Sasuke a "boss".

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    • That still leaves the problem of him having questionable methods, and wanting to kill Naruto. Not to mention the fact that Sasuke still has yet to be completely redeemed which Itachi confirmed.

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    • Snowlover123 wrote:

      Taynio wrote: I think it makes a lot of sense since it seems she practically started the shinobi world (not her son) by her actions. So to fight the "original sin" has a somewhat good fit to it. Doesn't mean I inherently like it, however. I have no problems with it, but I just don't know how they're going to fight against her. How do you fight someone who was said to be stronger than the So6P, who is the closest thing to omnipotence as possible?

      That's probably setting up for some sort of a power up from Hamura.


      What you said that now they only need some Hamura is the whole reason of my post as "Will Naruto and Sasuke be enough for defeating Kaguya?"

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    • Gojirafan430 wrote: That still leaves the problem of him having questionable methods, and wanting to kill Naruto. Not to mention the fact that Sasuke still has yet to be completely redeemed which Itachi confirmed.

      Does he want to kill Naruto still? Probably not anymore. And while he might be harsh, that doesn't necessarily mean he will become a villain.

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    • I do like the concept of Kaguya, that being that the original human to wield chakra is the final villain in a world where all shinobi are united against a common enemy, which somewhat resembles what Hagoromo had intended when he founded Ninshu. However, I just think it was poor execution. Madara had such an amazing build-up, his reasoning was understandable and almost sympathetic...and then Kishimoto made him look like a complete derp by not realizing the Zetsu double-cross, which seems like something a man of Madara's intelligence and foresight would have figured out immediately.

      Hey, maybe he'll come back! If there's one person I say had more revival/avoid death plans than Orochimaru, it's probably Madara.

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    • I just thought of something. If Kaguya really is the 10 tails, then is she really considered a new villain? She's just it's true form.

      Then she isn't really a random character or anything. It's not unusual in a series to learn more about the final boss at the end or see them have a "true form" that looks completely different from what we expect.

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    • Deathmailrock
      Deathmailrock removed this reply because:
      It doubled when it was being posted for some reason
      18:53, July 3, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      I just thought of something. If Kaguya really is the 10 tails, then is she really considered a new villain? She's just it's true form.

      Then she isn't really a random character or anything. It's not unusual in a series to learn more about the final boss at the end or see them have a "true form" that looks completely different from what we expect.

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    • I try to explain that to people all the time. But you see, this place is still yet to update the articles properly by separating Ten-Tails stuff from Shinju article and adding that to Kaguya's. "sigh"

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    • Elveonora wrote: I try to explain that to people all the time. But you see, this place is still yet to update the articles properly by separating Ten-Tails stuff from Shinju article and adding that to Kaguya's. "sigh"

      Well, even if it is a part of her, it's in a way separate too, right? Like how the Gedo Mazo and Shinju have their own separate article.

      Though maybe the Jubi might actually be the combination of Kaguya and the Shinju (like Gogeta from DBZ). It keeps things more organized.... or it might be her sealed off self...

      There is a lot it could be, so it's probably best that it's kept separate for the time being (better safe than sorry). It'd be less work if we combine the page when more info is given to support it rather than combining it and them splitting it again if we learn something new that goes against it.

      With all the new info that keeps on piling up these latest chapters, we should take things that could use more info more carefully. It's not like the wiki has a time limit for when these things can be done.

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    • Not sure about that, things should be documented the way they are known to be true at a given time, rather their being wrongly documented on purpose because we don't see the full picture and hoping that once we do, something will have changed.

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    • But it's not wrongly documented. It's noted in pages how they are all Connected. Nothing is incorrect, it's just in separate pages, cause there is a lot of stuff concerning Kaguya & the Shinju that are still iffy about.... if separation provides more accuracy, then it'd be better

      In fact, if it really is true that they are all considered the same thing, then it'd probably have to be a tabbed page showing them as different. Like in FT wiki, with how the MC's have tabs for subpages, except Kaguya's would be "Kaguya" "Gedo Mazo" and "Jubi" -though, again, the Jubi might be the fusion of Kaguya and the Shinju, it's not exactly clear yet.

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    • Kaguya is awful. lmao. But at this rate, Black Zetsu will probably end up as the final villain after she gets TnJ'ed and that Im okay with. BZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kaguya.

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    • RexGodwin wrote: Kaguya is awful. lmao. But at this rate, Black Zetsu will probably end up as the final villain after she gets TnJ'ed and that Im okay with. BZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kaguya.

      Why is she awful? And enough with that "Talk no Jutsu" crap, seriously.... making the enemy into an ally after beating them is common in most shonen (Bleach, One Piece, DragonBall Z, etc. etc.) and it isn't even done in all the situations...

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    • She is "awful" to some apparently because she barely talks anything. All she said basically is: "chakra's mine, I love/hate you all, let's turn you into white plant men in a global orgy"

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    • Deathmailrock wrote:

      RexGodwin wrote: Kaguya is awful. lmao. But at this rate, Black Zetsu will probably end up as the final villain after she gets TnJ'ed and that Im okay with. BZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kaguya.

      Why is she awful? And enough with that "Talk no Jutsu" crap, seriously.... making the enemy into an ally after beating them is common in most shonen (Bleach, One Piece, DragonBall Z, etc. etc.) and it isn't even done in all the situations...

      lol, so what if its in most animes? Its handled terribly in Naruto for the most part (Obito, Nagato, Kabuto,etc.) and its def going to happen again.

      She is generic and bland as fuck. nothing to her other than blah blah blah i want my chakra back blah blah *cries like a bitch just because Nardo/Sauce have similar powers/aura/w/e to her sons/grandsons.* Just reeks of terrible writing. Madara wasnt perfect but he was far better of a last villain, he had been properly built up and foreshadowed for years.

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    • Actually, its handled brilliantly in Naruto. Much better than in most other anime. You clearly have no handle on how writing works.

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    • @RexGodwin

      Seriously? Apparently, Kaguya is the true form of the Jubi, so she was properly built up.... so we are just learning the Jubi's real name and form.

      So she cries because the people fighting her resemble the children that went against her and sealed her away thousands of years ago, that actually makes sense.

      And Kabuto was trapped in a technique that forced him to look at himself and change. Nagato's situation changed because of talking with Naruto but that was because of how well Naruto related with Nagato and how Nagato really did want to believe in Jiraya.

      And while Naruto's talking helped influence Obito, it was actually Madara confessing everything that really changed him. After Madara's confession, Naruto and Obito had a common enemy.

      Everything about how the people were converted was actually done really well, and is logical and actually makes sense. In fact, all the messed up actions of the characters are pretty realistic when looking at the situations, and how they are redeemed is also realistic considering the situations.

      The complexities of the characters are done pretty well. It is actually good writing.

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    • "The complexities of the characters are done pretty well." LOL. Nagato was a cold twisted ruthless individual, and despite fighting for peace he was pretty messed up. But his conversion was shit. Seriously? Naruto didnt even give him an answer all he did was go yeah just count on me...ill find a way. yeah. totally convincing.

      Obito was also sick and twisted, but the second he lost to Naruto he just gave up. like. OK? He had this plan and the drive to do all these horrible things for decades, committed many horrible crimes but some pepetalk for like a few minutes from a dumb blonde kid made him give up? Pathetic. Kisame, who was little more than a pawn had more conviction and laughs from beyond his grave.

      Izanami was such a shitty lazy writing device for Itachi to asspull his way to victory, seriously terrible.

      "You clearly have no handle on how writing works. " Oh. how mature. Nice personal attack.

      I guess if you don't like or agree with everything you are looked down upon. But regardless its sad to see whats become of this series, early Part II and Part I were some amazing, Kishi is just dragging this shit on way too long.

      Obito was an awesome character till the Mask came off, hes just been an embarrassment ever since..

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    • @RexGodwin Nagato didn't have much conviction, he basically had no hope until Naruto came and showed the same conviction as Yahiko & Jiraya. He just connected with Naruto because of that. Nagato wanted to believe in Jiraya, Naruto was his escape. Nagato wasn't a mentally strong individual. He was a good well written character overall, and it was realistic (seriously, not every person is gonna be mentally strong, that is unrealistic).

      Nagato wasn't ever a leader, he was a follower. While he may be a good strategist, smart, and powerful, he was never the type meant to lead. He was the kind of guy who just followed what other people said.

      And for Obito, it wasn't because of the "pep talk". After nearly 19 yrs of work failed(cause he lost the Jubi power), his body was weakened and Black Zetsu tried to take over his body. He really joined up with Naruto when Madara confessed to having killed Rin (Rin's death was his entire drive, so the focus just changed). He felt regret cause he ended up teaming up with the guy who killed his beloved Rin.

      Obito was done very well in my opinion, especially after he lost his mask.

      Every person has a mental weakness, some different for some people than others, so if you compare what affects them to what affects you, then it might not work as well.

      Madara BRAINWASHED Obito by feeding him ideas and speaking to him in ways that he couldn't help but listen. Then, watching his sensei being to late and his best friend killing the woman he loved just hit the hammer on the nail and completed his brain washing. Then the actions he did made it harder and harder to going back to escaping the brainwashing.

      And while Izanagi seems lazy, it was kind of obvious that Itachi would use a genjutsu to extract the info. What was weird was Itachi trying to save Kabuto and redeem him.

      Maybe your just missing some of the stuff that went on, and maybe your just comparing what you wanted to happen verse what actually happened.

      Of course, you may not personally like some of the things too(cause not everybody likes everything and it's near impossible to find people with the exact same tastes). There may be many reasons. But it seems that you are only understand a part of the reasons for the characters changes when there are multiple factors involved.

      Please, don't misunderstand, that's not a personal attack, but what I'm kind of feeling is that since you have bad expectations towards what is going on or have expectations that aren't being filled, you are viewing the series in a more negative light. It's because we are different we could probably see different parts from the same series.

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    • Kaguya alone seems too underdeveloped and one-dimensional to hold the role of final villain. (still waiting on some complex backstory) At least, it is Kaguya+BZ, as this two-side antagonist archetype has been done before, though it is not very common I think.

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    • But, we knew for a while the existence of the Jubi, so the god wanting it's power back seems to work. Black Zetsu is just a part of Kaguya.

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    • Deathmailrock wrote: But, we knew for a while the existence of the Jubi, so the god wanting it's power back seems to work. Black Zetsu is just a part of Kaguya.

      Yes, in a certain respect, but they are still separate beings. Point being — Kaguya alone is not truly the "final villain" here. After all, it was BZ who intentionally set the entire storyline of the Naruto universe in motion. And he and "Mother" even disagree on some matters, i.e. killing vs absorbing Team 7.

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    • And anyway, I think the villain aspect in this series could have been handled better. "W manipulated by X manipulated by Y manipulated by Z" is a ... pretty basic and linear formula. It's especially worse for a manga initially known for its diversity and unpredictability. Fortunately, Kishimoto has been able to keep it afloat IMO, but the ship has long sunk for others.

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    • I don't know about that... sure, there was some disagreement between BZ and Kaguya, but I think that was like a disagreement people have with themselves.

      They were deciding what the best course of action was.

      If BZ and Jubi count as Kaguya, then it makes her less random of a character.

      BZ was just a part of her & Jubi was a form she used to attack her children.

      Plus, if you didn't expect the linear formula, then it is still unexpected.

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    • Honestly, after seeing her in action for a few chapters, I came to the conclusion I don't like Kaguya as a villain at all.

      I don't feel the same vibe I had when Obito or Madara were in charge of the role because Kaguya has no ties with any of the characters fighting her.

      And don't try to argue with transmigration/reicarnation because it is not quite the same thing. Just as Naruto and Sasuke are not the same characters as Hashirama and Madara, I don't consider them the same thing as Ashura and Indra (we don't even know these two guys to begin with). Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Kakashi and Sakura don't know this person, from their point of view she is just a random powerful opponent who just appeared out of nowhere and they need to beat her, there's no emotion from them when Kaguya is involved, it is completely one-sided on her part when she is lost in memories. So far the emotion factor is unsatisfying.

      With Obito we had an "anti-Naruto" with opposed ideals and forcing a clash of ideals so strong no other parallel in the manga can compare and him also being the basis of Kakashi's ninja code. With Madara we had the rival of Hashirama driven mad by the loss of his brother by the hands of Tobirama, which connected him too the edo Kages, he is also the reason Obito went into the fallen hero route and they were trying to one-up each other constantly during the last arcs.

      Kaguya, on the other hand, has little to no emotional factor going on. She is just the typical overpowered boss whose only shtick is raw power and does absolutely nothing in the story until the final chapter comes, her revival was not even her doing, it was Zetsu's. She can't think if her life depends on it and relies on Zetsu in her sleeve to say the next move because she doesn't know how to proceed. It is quite pathetic to see someone so powerful, but doesn't know what to do with all this power at all.

      Her motivations are also utter non-sense and she commits obvious villain mistakes. First of all, if she succeeds there will be no one left in the world to oppose her (even the army she wants is redundant when you think about it), so why she wants so badly to absorb Naruto and Sasuke's chakra if there will be no use for it once she wins? She already has even greater reserves than the Ten-Tails, so it is not like she needs more chakra badly, it is just complexity addiction. She lets the heroes live despite not needing them alive and she wants an army she doesn't need, the only reason she didn't win already is because she is dumb and didn't realize the obvious fallacies in her plan. Now compare it to Obito and Madara, their goals were ill-oriented but made sense, they wanted to force world peace through illusion, an objective easy to understand and grasp. Kaguya's, on the other hand, is a complete mess and makes me think she just has a non-sensical greed for chakra despite having bigger reserves than the Juubi already.

      I won't deny she is powerful, that's not my point. But her character is very, very poor and it makes her suck as a villain.

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    • Naruto and Sasuke may get the memories of Asura and Indra as that is a common trope in reicarnation. We know too little about her to judge as her as an overall character. Her motives, past, and plan is unknown. She obviously isn't human.

      But here are three things that suggest Kaguya is not the final antagonist:

      - Kaguya needs an army for some threat.

      - Kishi used Kaguya for comic relief really fast. Where she turns off her byakugan to gaze at naked dudes. Usually a writer wouldn't do that for the big bad.

      - Naruto is reaching a large "new era" sometime in 2015. Which sounds like the manga is not going to end any time soon.

      It seems to me that Kaguya is just beginning of something.

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    • NeedleJizo
      NeedleJizo removed this reply because:
      I didn't get a reaction. Darnit!
      08:12, July 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      I think we all know who the main villain is at this point.

      Frieza.

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    • Shadow Abyss wrote: And don't try to argue with transmigration/reicarnation because it is not quite the same thing. Just as Naruto and Sasuke are not the same characters as Hashirama and Madara, I don't consider them the same thing as Ashura and Indra (we don't even know these two guys to begin with).

      Well, that's fine for you, but Kishi may see things differently, and symbolism is strong in his work. Its perfectly the same thing. Like or dislike Kaguya all you want, but Madara served his purpose, as did Obito. They're done and its time for the fanbase, frankly, the get the hell over it.

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    • Where did Kishimoto confirm that the manga ends after the war? I really hope he doesn't end it after such a bittersweet arc. I'd love to see one last lighthearted arc like the pre-Shippuden filler arcs or even the introduction arc.

      Either way, Kaguya as the final villain makes sense. Who else to be the ending than the very beginning? ;)

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    • Man of Sin wrote: Naruto and Sasuke may get the memories of Asura and Indra as that is a common trope in reicarnation. We know too little about her to judge as her as an overall character. Her motives, past, and plan is unknown. She obviously isn't human.

      But here are three things that suggest Kaguya is not the final antagonist:

      - Kaguya needs an army for some threat.

      - Kishi used Kaguya for comic relief really fast. Where she turns off her byakugan to gaze at naked dudes. Usually a writer wouldn't do that for the big bad.

      - Naruto is reaching a large "new era" sometime in 2015. Which sounds like the manga is not going to end any time soon.

      It seems to me that Kaguya is just beginning of something.

      I love this comment because the "new era" thing in 2015 sounds awesome. We still have at least one more year of Naruto. Maybe Kishimoto will continue the series with the Konoha 11/Sand Siblings' children? That'd be awesome.

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    • Man of Sin wrote: Naruto and Sasuke may get the memories of Asura and Indra as that is a common trope in reicarnation. We know too little about her to judge as her as an overall character. Her motives, past, and plan is unknown. She obviously isn't human.

      But here are three things that suggest Kaguya is not the final antagonist:

      - Kaguya needs an army for some threat.

      - Kishi used Kaguya for comic relief really fast. Where she turns off her byakugan to gaze at naked dudes. Usually a writer wouldn't do that for the big bad.

      - Naruto is reaching a large "new era" sometime in 2015. Which sounds like the manga is not going to end any time soon.

      It seems to me that Kaguya is just beginning of something.

      Masashi Kishimoto: "The battle of Naruto and his comrades is in it’s final phase, in the truest sense of the term. About the Ten Tails, about Madara, and then, about Sasuke…I will continue to raise the tension without restraint, in every way I can! Please follow this story of a boy named Naruto a little while longer, I will greatly appreciate it."

      Source: [1]

      Its ending, people.

      Seriously, the delusion that it will continue is completely insane. The "new era" project has already been confirmed to be a series of new movies.

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    • ^I've read that before and it doesn't say how long said "phase" will last. Example: Bleach's "final arc" has last for 3 years now.

      I didn't read that it was a series of movies on its wiki page or anywhere.

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    • Why does everyone seem to think/want the new movies to be about Naruto and his childern? I dont get why people seem to think that at all. Its obvious that the movies are going to include Naruto to some degree, of course, but it looks like its only taking place a few years after the war.These movies arent going to be like the legend of Korra at all from what I've seen. They basically seem to be a continuation of the main story, just a few years in the future.

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    • Erlkaw16 wrote: Why does everyone seem to think/want the new movies to be about Naruto and his childern? I dont get why people seem to think that at all. Its obvious that the movies are going to include Naruto to some degree, of course, but it looks like its only taking place a few years after the war.These movies arent going to be like the legend of Korra at all from what I've seen. They basically seem to be a continuation of the main story, just a few years in the future.

      Having Obito Dead? Because if yes then I Will Be Pissed!

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    • On Chapter 692, Now what about the final villain: Sasuke Uchiha

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    • I told you that she wasn't final villain.

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    • No because she's just a bitch with a menstrual and hasn't had dick in centuries. Whoever the husband was must be someone more terrifying. Maybe kaguya found her way to the DBZ universe with that teleporting technique lol

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    • Haxs wrote: No because she's just a bitch with a menstrual and hasn't had dick in centuries.

      Well, damn. If I hadn't gotten dicked in centuries, I'd try to kill the world, too.

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    • Final villains don't get sexy no Jutsu'd.

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    • Man of Sin wrote: Final villains don't get sexy no Jutsu'd.

      Again, celibate for centuries lol I don't care how powerful you are, if you're surrounded by hot, sweaty, naked men after centuries without sex, you're going to be very, very intrigued.

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    • Unless she is a lesbian or frigid. Or she might be a hermaphrodite.

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    • She would've been more fit if she had more of a back story. We also should've received more notice about her arrival. She just appeared out of nowhere.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Unless she is a lesbian or frigid. Or she might be a hermaphrodite.

      Well, unless stated otherwise, I'll assume she was a thirsty, straight princess. :)

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    • There was seriously no reason to think she was final villain.

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    • Except she was imo. I wouldn't call Sasuke a villain, he is a rival.

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    • By that logic HYDRA in Captain America: The Winter Soldier are not villains. They have the except same goal and method as Sasuke.

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    • Haven't seen that movie yet, so I wouldn't know. But if the Hydra's goal is ultimately for good, then i wouldn't call them villains. Remember, one man's villain is in another man's eyes a saint.

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    • Both HYDRA and Sasuke's goals are to make a new world order through fear. Killing anyone that supports the old world or gets in their way. That's an anti-villain at most.

      As for Kaguya, we don't know she was up to.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Except she was imo. I wouldn't call Sasuke a villain, he is a rival.

      Sasuke was not wearing the "I want to fight you too" face, no...that was the "I'm going to murder your children in front of you" face. I'm pretty sure Sasuke qualifies as villain now. He even monologued about his diabolical plans, rivals don't do that. Next he'll use the animal path to summon mutated seabass with lasers mounted on their heads.

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    • Hiyayaka-kun wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Except she was imo. I wouldn't call Sasuke a villain, he is a rival.

      Next he'll use the animal path to summon mutated seabass with lasers mounted on their heads.

      Pretty sure that's a Yu-Gi-Oh card and I love that reference.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Pretty sure that's a Yu-Gi-Oh card and I love that reference.

      lol traphole'd

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    • 157.55.39.145
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