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Naruto's Nature Type is Missing Information

  • sorry but why does it not say on his page at the wiki that he can use Lava style and Yin-Yang release. It may be manga only but if on madara's page it says he uses Earth and Water because he used Wood release then it should say that Naruto uses Lava and Yin-Yang because he does and even give me the whole "Ow he didn't use Lava the tailed beasts did" Madara stole his power form Hashirama ok that's that same thing Naruto has the Chakara from the beast inside him he can use their power he simply can't run out of Chakra as they well keep giving him it but it still stands that he Obtained that type of chakra release end of story put it back

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    • We don't negotiate with people who refuse to adhere to basic grammar and interpunction.

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    • Thank you Mr. Seelentau.

      Moving on, a huge discussion is going to start up again with regards to how we take on information. So yeah, things are about to get real stupid here once again, real fast. Until then, beyond what we have physically seen (Lava and Magnet) nothing else will be added to Naruto's article.

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    • But please not as a Kekkei Genkai, he doesn't have those. :(

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    • And who was that argued that Lava Release be a kekei genkai for the tailed beasts, which then bled into Roshi's articles?

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    • That was me. So? Information once thought to be true changed over time and became false. Nothing special, especially not in an ongoing fictional story.

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    • Seelentau wrote: We don't negotiate with people who refuse to adhere to basic grammar and interpunction.

      ha ha ha what are u talking about, then how does orochimaru have wood release????

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    • Because he took over a Zetsu body, which in turn has Wood Release.

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    • Naruto doesn't even have Magnet and Lava nor the natures that make them up, the Tailed Beasts do. This is what certain sysops refuse to understand. He acted in the usage of his new Rasengans simply as a medium for the TBs' chakras.

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    • Seelentau wrote: That was me. So? Information once thought to be true changed over time and became false. Nothing special, especially not in an ongoing fictional story.

      Forgive me then, while true I find the reasoning behind the thought sketch. We were perfectly fine up until Naruto pulled something out of his tailed beast's butt, then suddenly everything we were already told must be reevaluated and changed, under the pretense that "This is new and completely unlik-" No. It isn't new. It's the same mess we've seen from the start, it just now has to be changed because suddenly Naruto is making use of it.

      And yes, I am singling out Naruto, because as of this post, there was no denying Madara pulled Storm Release out of his butt, but Naruto with multiple new releases, "eff dat #(@*" and I find that suspect.

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    • Because for all we know, Madara can actually use Lightning and Water and merge them, unlike Naruto. Unless you suspect it to be like:

      • Madara: "Hey Shinju, give me Storm Release chakra"
      • Shinju: "You smash, tree gives"
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    • That is so uncompromisingly stupid reasoning in my mind that I will also be taking a back seat in this discussion as well.

      Carry on everyone.

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    • It isn't, it's a completely valid reasoning. Chapter 674 has made it even more obvious that Naruto isn't the user of the natures, he doesn't even know what to do and had to have had Shukaku tell him. Naruto hasn't magically learned Katon and Doton from nowhere (because duh, natures have to be learned and they don't just appear) nor has he learned whatever natures make Jinton up. There wasn't a time for that, he was half-dead if you didn't notice.

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    • What about the yin-yang release? He does have that?

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    • Only if either of the Tailed Beasts has YYR. The Truth Seeking Orbs aren't any nature by default, but why do I bother anyway, I'm talking to a wall. Chakra has to be transformed using nature transformation to achieve an effect, suggesting the orbs just happen to be YYR or any natures would be stating that the Ten-Tails has fire, wind, earth and so on flow through its chakra pathway.

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    • Can anyone explain what Yin and Yang Releases do? I know something about spiritual and physical energy. But doesn't that make everyone a Yin and Yang user?

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    • Supposedly, every Ninjutsu which isn't an element is either Yin Release or Yang Release. We just don't know which techniques are which, that's why we don't list people as Yin and Yang Release users. The funny thing is that we know Genjutsu is Yin Release, yet we don't list genjutsu users as Yin Release users for whatever weird illogical reasoning some may have.

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    • The reason is "we wait until more information is available". :)

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    • The basic natures need to be there. Refer to Kakashi and Yamato when they were explaining Wood Release to Naruto. There quite isn't a wood natured chakra. Wood Release is earth and water used together and blended. They're still earth and water, but mixed in a way that creates wood. What we add in the nature field in infoboxes is to indicate that those can be used together and blended in the way that creates a new Release. Naruto may have used a Lava Release technique, but that technique, by the explanation provided to us, is earth chakra and fire chakra mixed together. That is lava chakra. Are we going to remove earth and water from Danzo since he didn't use any of those elements? I don't think so.

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    • How much more information beyond "genjutsu falls under the broad category of Yin Release" are we going to get?

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    • @Omni, the thing is Naruto didn't even use Fire and Earth in the first place, Son Goku did.

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    • @Foxie, this. I think with this Yin = Genjutsu people are playing it a little too safe, we might not even get more info beyond that.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Naruto may have used a Lava Release technique, but that technique, by the explanation provided to us, is earth chakra and fire chakra mixed together. That is lava chakra.

      But Naruto wasn't the one who created the lava chakra, Son was. So Son is the one who merges earth and fire chakra, not Naruto. He gave Naruto the lava chakra, Naruto only set it free. Same goes for Shukaku and his Magnet Release.

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: How much more information beyond "genjutsu falls under the broad category of Yin Release" are we going to get?

      I'm not sure if that's the correct translation of the Mizukage's words, though...

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    • @Seel, this is what I try to explain for a while now ^_ But I'm almost giving up.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Seel, this is what I try to explain for a while now ^_ But I'm almost giving up.

      Sorry about that, my computer interrupt me before I finished. As I was saying, The Truth Seeker Balls consist of yin-yang plus four unknown elements according to the wikia site.
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    • Seelentau wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: Naruto may have used a Lava Release technique, but that technique, by the explanation provided to us, is earth chakra and fire chakra mixed together. That is lava chakra.

      But Naruto wasn't the one who created the lava chakra, Son was. So Son is the one who merges earth and fire chakra, not Naruto. He gave Naruto the lava chakra, Naruto only set it free. Same goes for Shukaku and his Magnet Release.

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: How much more information beyond "genjutsu falls under the broad category of Yin Release" are we going to get?

      I'm not sure if that's the correct translation of the Mizukage's words, though...

      And that mixture is still earth and fire chakra. Thinking like that, we would simply not list Naruto as a Lava user because he didn't mix the chakra either.

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    • @Solidedub, it's written by "us" and some of "us" are simply wrong. @Omni, he shouldn't be listed as Lava user either, but remove Fire and Earth, they are just barking. An attempt to remove the Lava too would result in an arm bitten off tho.

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    • This is what I think: in terms of naruto using magnet and lava release, it can't be considered bloodline or him using fire and earth because it was the tailed beasts that gave him the chakra. just as roshi used lava through son. naruto is only using the tailed beasts chakra. in terms of madara using storm release, he is now the jinchuriki of the shinju, the progenitor of all chakra. it's safe to assume that most advanced chakra natures (ones that combine two or more chakra types) are available to him, not as a tailed beast skill, but of his own power. Naruto's truth seeking orbs, they were described as the "senjutsu of the sage of the six paths". by definition of the orbs, yin yang release isnt required to use them, but used to amplify them. just because naruto has them doesn't mean he can use yin yang release

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Seelentau wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: Naruto may have used a Lava Release technique, but that technique, by the explanation provided to us, is earth chakra and fire chakra mixed together. That is lava chakra.

      But Naruto wasn't the one who created the lava chakra, Son was. So Son is the one who merges earth and fire chakra, not Naruto. He gave Naruto the lava chakra, Naruto only set it free. Same goes for Shukaku and his Magnet Release.

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: How much more information beyond "genjutsu falls under the broad category of Yin Release" are we going to get?

      I'm not sure if that's the correct translation of the Mizukage's words, though...

      And that mixture is still earth and fire chakra. Thinking like that, we would simply not list Naruto as a Lava user because he didn't mix the chakra either.

      He used the Lava, that makes him a Lava Release user. He didn't use Earth and Fire to create Lava, thus he is no ER/FR user.

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    • @Seel, the Lava was still provided by Son Goku tho, meaning it shouldn't be in Naruto's infobox. Because that implies Naruto can use Fire and Earth and mix them. Naruto shouldn't be listed as Fire, Earth and Lava user for the same reason he isn't listed as Blaze Release user.

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    • yin is described as creating form from nothingness. so madara's sage art: yin release lightening dispatch is sage enhanced lightening created from nothingness, which is why he just kinda generates lightening from his hands. yang is giving life to the form created from yin release. such as shadow techniques, genjutsu (creating form from nothing, cuz shadows aren't actually physical, and neither are illusions)

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Seelentau wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: Naruto may have used a Lava Release technique, but that technique, by the explanation provided to us, is earth chakra and fire chakra mixed together. That is lava chakra.

      But Naruto wasn't the one who created the lava chakra, Son was. So Son is the one who merges earth and fire chakra, not Naruto. He gave Naruto the lava chakra, Naruto only set it free. Same goes for Shukaku and his Magnet Release.

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: How much more information beyond "genjutsu falls under the broad category of Yin Release" are we going to get?

      I'm not sure if that's the correct translation of the Mizukage's words, though...

      And that mixture is still earth and fire chakra. Thinking like that, we would simply not list Naruto as a Lava user because he didn't mix the chakra either.

      I already know that. His lava release came from son the four tails, so he can't use lava release like a kekai genkai. He could only use it by receiving son's charkra.
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    • Him using Lava Release is him using Earth and Fire. Going like that, we should list, for example, Mei as a user of fire and earth as well, since she never used those. There's no Lava is there's no earth and fire.

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    • Him using Lava Release is him using Lava Release. But I understand what you mean. However, this makes the whole issue tricky. Naruto doesn't have those natures like he has Wind Release. But he has access to them through Son. What does that make it and how do we make it obvious in the infobox?

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    • We just don't list him, him having the Lava technique in infobox jutsus is enough obvious. But beware, many still disagree and think he actually used fire and earth of his own, hence his fanon abilities section and so.

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    • it should be listed as a tailed beast skill as should magnet release

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    • @Ajax, that isn't very helpful response and is offtopic. The actual issue is if Naruto should have Fire, Earth and Lava in his infobox or not.

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    • list it in the info box, and on the actual page (such as under "ninjutsu" or "Jinchuriki transformations") specify the fact that its a tailed beast skill

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    • Honestly, keep it how it is and take earth and fire out of the info box. that's my opinion anyway

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    • The majority tho is still under the false impression that Naruto molded that nature chakra, because fanboyism > facts and logic here. I get it, Naruto is omnipotent Jesus now and all, but he hasn't magically learned how to use Katon and Doton. Listing the natures in the infobox just reinforces the fallacy that he can use them.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Him using Lava Release is him using Earth and Fire. Going like that, we should list, for example, Mei as a user of fire and earth as well, since she never used those. There's no Lava is there's no earth and fire.

      A good example is Haku;eventhough, Haku has the ice release. He's also listed as a wind and water user, but he never used them.
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    • Haku in fact used Suiton and mentioned that he can make Hyoton out of water. That means he could apply Futon onto water. All users of advanced natures also know how to use the basic natures that make them up. Just because some haven't been shown using them doesn't mean they can't.

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    • Look that Lava Rasenshuriken appeared above Naruto's hand right? That means he used it. Same goes for that Magnet Release Rasengan. You can also throw a snowball you didn't make.

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    • It should stay Lava is made from fire and earth release, i understand he didn't make it but he did apply it to has rasenshuriken.

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    • @Le, yes. So one who has thrown a snowball gets listed as a snowball thrower, but not as the snowball maker.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Le, yes. So one who has thrown a snowball gets listed as a snowball thrower, but not as the snowball maker.

      Yup.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Haku in fact used Suiton and mentioned that he can make Hyoton out of water. That means he could apply Futon onto water. All users of advanced natures also know how to use the basic natures that make them up. Just because some haven't been shown using them doesn't mean they can't.

      I know haku could use the water and wind nature. Its just that he never did used his basic natures, so he just combined them to make ice.

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    • Okay Haku has used water jutsu before just not wind jutsu.
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    • the bottom line is, naruto didnt use earth and fire to make the lava. son did, and gave the created lava chakra to naruto. naruto took no part in its creation, thus, can't/shouldn't be listed as being able to use earth and fire. but another question to ask would be if roshi could use fire and earth? if so, naruto should be listed the same way roshi is since he is a psuedo-jinchiriki of son

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    • Unless stated otherwise, Roshi could actually use them.

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    • Yes, the third databook makes that clear.

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    • Why not put something like "Lava Release (Through Son Goku)" in the infobox? And take out Fire and Earth.

      About Haku, he has no other way to use Hyoton than merging Suiton and Futon. So he must have the two natures. What is not Naturo's case, who clearly shares the power with the Tailed Beasts.

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    • In the end, it's up to the sysops to change their minds.

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    • Thunder God Cid wrote: Why not put something like "Lava Release (Through Son Goku)" in the infobox? And take out Fire and Earth.

      I think that works better. I hope the admins would have an open mind about this.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Yes, the third databook makes that clear.

      Third databook says that he uses the Four-Tails's ability to mix earth and fire to use lava, it does not say that he he has those on his own.

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    • "He uses to mix" whom else earth and fire would have he been mixing?

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    • I'm not talking about his article, I'm talking about the little bit about Lava Release at the end of the book, where other, more useless stuff is explained, too.

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    • @Seel, I'm curious about that. What does it say if you may? I don't have the book at my disposal.

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    • It says "A special Ninjutsu the Yonbi's Jinchuriki Roshi manipulates. A technique combined from Fire Release and Earth Release, that produces "lava" which completely melts all things."

      ShounenSuki's translation's the same: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Lava_Release#Is_corrosion_style_really_lava.3F.3F.3F

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    • Elveonora wrote: "He uses to mix" whom else earth and fire would have he been mixing?

      Son's.

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: "He uses to mix" whom else earth and fire would have he been mixing?

      Son's.

      I mean seriously.

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    • Whatever Roshi's situation, I think it don't change the fact that Naruto asked the Lava Release to Son Goku, and Shukaku offered the Magnet Release. Until more information is given by the manga, this is what we have: he can't use these natures on their own and need the chakra of Tailed Beasts.

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    • Yuu Orochi
      Yuu Orochi removed this reply because:
      Posted wrong x,x
      03:38, April 24, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      The bottom line is that Naruto DID use these types of Chakra Natures(Lava and Magnet). How he did it is irrelevant. We list Chakra Natures in the infobox if we see them using such jutsu that require them. Naruto Used a Rasengan combined with a Lava Release technique, thus that means he can use Lava Release and it should be listed. Same goes for the Magnet release and all the other previously known Kekkei Genkai we all know Kishimoto is gonna add on int he enxt chapters just to troll us all.

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    • Yuu Orochi
      Yuu Orochi removed this reply because:
      again...
      03:38, April 24, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      The bottom line is that Naruto DID use these types of Chakra Natures(Lava and Magnet). How he did it is irrelevant. We list Chakra Natures in the infobox if we see them using such jutsu that require them. Naruto Used a Rasengan combined with a Lava Release technique, thus that means he can use Lava Release and it should be listed. Same goes for the Magnet release and all the other previously known Kekkei Genkai we all know Kishimoto is gonna add on int he enxt chapters just to troll us all.

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    • The bottom line is that Naruto DID use these types of Chakra Natures(Lava and Magnet). How he did it is irrelevant. We list Chakra Natures in the infobox if we see the character using such jutsu that require them. Naruto Used a Rasengan combined with a Lava Release technique, thus that means he can use Lava Release and it should be listed. Same goes for the Magnet release and all the other previously known Kekkei Genkai we all know Kishimoto is gonna add on in the next chapters just to troll us all.

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    • Yuu Orochi wrote: The bottom line is that Naruto DID use these types of Chakra Natures(Lava and Magnet). How he did it is irrelevant. We list Chakra Natures in the infobox if we see the character using such jutsu that require them. Naruto Used a Rasengan combined with a Lava Release technique, thus that means he can use Lava Release and it should be listed. Same goes for the Magnet release and all the other previously known Kekkei Genkai we all know Kishimoto is gonna add on int he enxt chapters just to troll us all.

      No one is disputing that. The issue at hand is whether to add the basic natures that compose the elements as well. Which we should, because using Lava Release means using Fire and Earth Release. Even if someone else blends the two together, they're still fire and earth chakra.

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    • Elveonora wrote: The majority tho is still under the false impression that Naruto molded that nature chakra, because fanboyism > facts and logic here. I get it, Naruto is omnipotent Jesus now and all, but he hasn't magically learned how to use Katon and Doton. Listing the natures in the infobox just reinforces the fallacy that he can use them.

      Then what about madara's ranton?

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    • By the way, since Omni-kun and some others are so fixated on Kakashi's and Yamato's explanation of how acvanced natures work: How can Naruto create a Yoton Rasengan, when you have to have earth in one hand and fire in the other and merge them by forming seals to create lava? Naruto doesn't form hand seals for his Rasengan, but according to the explanation you guys seem to love so much, hand seals are a necessity.

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    • Who knows. Perhaps Kishimoto was lazy. Perhaps Yamato used the example "I'm mixing them in both arms" to explain it easily to Naruto (whom it is listed even here, as needed an oversimplified explanation to grasp certain things).

      I'm pretty sure we've seen Wood Release users do stupid things with only one hand. And even then, that ignores the fact that (yes in their explanation) that there isn't such a thing the advanced natures (in their explanation, wood) at all, and that it is formed directly because of the mixing of two elements. So even if the chakra was "handed off" it is still the mixture of the other two, for the simple reason that it has to be to even exist.

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    • Evidence against:

      • advanced natures require both hands, one nature in each to be merged
      • Naruto had to use his Tailed Beasts' chakras to do the new Rasengans... if he could do Katon and Doton on his own and merge them, he wouldn't have needed Son Goku's chakra and assistance, not to mention the Shukaku case makes it even more obvious that in the equation Naruto does nothing more than create the Rasengan and the nature transformation part handle the "Tailed Beasts"
      • Naruto doesn't know Fire and Earth, because the only training he did was for Wind and there was no time for further training with being at war and all
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    • Evidence for (really this is just a counter to Elveonora)

      • Again, I am just about certain we've seen people preform advanced natures with either no hand seals or with one hand. On this I could be wrong.
      • If we want to ignore context clues, then yeah Naruto does in fact have to ask the tailed beast for chakra. Not different from what he's always been doing, except he's actually asking instead of simply taking.
      • It doesn't really matter if he doesn't know them or not. The fact that he's listed as using the advanced nature means he has to also be using the ones that make it up because it literally doesn't exist without those two elements.

      And to save the trouble, because I know where this is going, back to my back seat.

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    • I get what Omni-kun and the others mean: Nature (A) + Nature (B) doesn't make Nature (C), but rather Nature (AB), right?

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    • Yes, but we still list AB as C in the infoboxes, because there is no other way to make the advanced nature obvious in the infoboxes. For example, listing Mokuton as AB (Earth+Water) could have led people to believe that Mokuton is "mud" or something, because earth+water doesn't exactly explain Wood :P But that is irrelevant to the topic if Naruto should be listed as user of any other nature besides Wind at all. @Ulti:

      • You can't be both certain and wrong
      • You are still missing the point, if Naruto is asking or taking chakra is irrelevant in case of him being listed as user of those natures... it basically makes no difference, because asking for Yoton and purposely taking Yoton still means he didn't mold the Yoton, get it?
      • He shouldn't be listed as a user of the advanced natures too
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      • I can be very certain of something and be wrong. Just yesterday I was sure I had the right information about something, only to find out today that I was in fact wrong. I'm not a god, despite my claims.
      • So I want Roshi removed as well. The databook says that "he uses the Four-Tails lava" And if I were to argue further, I would say anybody who body splices crap into their bodies aren't really doing whatever on their own because they had to body splice to do it, so as such every Wood user except Hashirama would be removed. I am obviously not saying to do any of that I am making the point.
      • And same as above, neither should Roshi. Or any of the jinchuriki with any of their tailed beasts abilities. And I could make the argument about gene splicing kekkei genkai and what not.
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      • You ain't a god? What a disappointing revelation :P
      • Except the databook makes it obvious that Roshi manipulated Yoton himself, unlike Naruto. Despite what you might think, "Hash splicers" are actually merging Earth and Water on their own. Their Hash part doesn't just happen to produce nature transformation by itself, you know
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    • What does having a nature listed in the infobox actually mean, though? That the person is currently able to use the nature, or that they are potentially able to use it? We know being a jinchuriki gives one the potential to use their tailed beast's ability: Gaara could control sand even after losing Shukaku, and Roshi used Lava during his fight with Naruto and B before it was revealed that Four-Tails was resealed in him, implying he could use it without Goku too.

      If Naruto is Goku's jinchuriki (that's a separate argument entirely) like Roshi, then he does definitely have the potential to use Lava Release, but he isn't currently able to do so because he hasn't learned to create Fire or Earth nature chakra yet. Thus, Goku handles the Fire and Earth part for him and Naruto handles the Rasengan part, and the same is true for Shukaku and Magnet. So whether the natures are listed in Naruto's infobox or not should depend on whether it lists current abilities or potential abilities (and Orochimaru being listed with Water and Wood implies that we list based on potential). Either way, Naruto's abilities section should make it clear that he has yet to show whether he can use those natures on his own, since we don't know.

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    • Just a quick question. The past Son Goku's Jinchuriki had Lava Release? If he had, Naruto should be added... If not, Naruto shouldnt be added, simple. And yes i didnt read all threads. Some where really stupid. Like He uses Lava but not Fire and Earth, what? Am I reading this? If he uses Lava, the basis are Earth and Fire, if Son Goku can use Fire and Earth, Naruto can use them because he is SON GOKU JINCHURIKI: GOD!!!!

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    • @Beyond, great response. @Dan, Roshi had Lava Release because he also had Fire and Earth and could merge them himself, Naruto doesn't because he doesn't know Fire and Earth and for all we know he might not even have the power to merge them even if he did

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    • @Beyond: While I do understand that and it is probable that he may not have mastery over fire and earth, the fact is, as Son Goku's jinchuriki he used lava, which requires fire and earth to exist. @Dan: Roshi is in fact listed.

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    • @TheUltimate3 and that's nice and all, Naruto is listed as the user of his techniques, no one has a problem with that. But I don't think someone should be listed as a user of natures which he/she can't use. Even tho jinchuuriki use their Tailed Beast's chakra, the jinchuuriki should be listed as users of their Tailed Beast's advanced nature only if they can use the basic ones which make them up, Kurama isn't considered canonically a Wind Release user just because it drained Naruto's chakra for example. @Dan, Son Goku gave him the Lava, Naruto didn't mold nature chakra by melding Fire and Earth because he doesn't know them

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    • Again, why not put "Lava Release (Through Son Goku)"? The way it is now provide incorrect/incomplete information.

      If the problem is to put Fire and Earth Release, then it should make reference to Son Goku as well (assuming he can give Fire and Earth, just as he did with Lava).

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    • We used to do that back in the day but things changed.

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    • May I ask why "things" changed?

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    • Regarding the "if Kakashi and Yamato's explanation, then one nature per hand", the same way Tsuchikage merges three natures with just two hands to use Dust Release, and how Obito, Madara, Hagoromo, and Naruto merge four or more natures for TSB without even using hands. Whatever that is.

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    • Oh okay, things used to be so simple back then.

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    • We don't know how Kekkei Tota works, but all Dust techniques so far have required both hands indeed. The balls are a tailed beast skill. Also there's no evidence that the balls in their original state are of any nature at all, chakra doesn't just happen to be a nature without first having been transformed.

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    • Elveonora wrote: We don't know how Kekkei Tota works, but all Dust techniques so far have required both hands indeed. The balls are a tailed beast skill. Also there's no evidence that the balls in their original state are of any nature at all, chakra doesn't just happen to be a nature without first having been transformed.

      Maybe not fully, but they definitely lean toward a nature. I'm simply chalking this up to "sage's body" enhanced by Hagoromo's power.

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Yuu Orochi wrote: The bottom line is that Naruto DID use these types of Chakra Natures(Lava and Magnet). How he did it is irrelevant. We list Chakra Natures in the infobox if we see the character using such jutsu that require them. Naruto Used a Rasengan combined with a Lava Release technique, thus that means he can use Lava Release and it should be listed. Same goes for the Magnet release and all the other previously known Kekkei Genkai we all know Kishimoto is gonna add on int he enxt chapters just to troll us all.

      No one is disputing that. The issue at hand is whether to add the basic natures that compose the elements as well. Which we should, because using Lava Release means using Fire and Earth Release. Even if someone else blends the two together, they're still fire and earth chakra.

      This is the difficult, since we don't actually know if the Bijuu require the need for the basic natures to use the Kekkei Genkai. Seeing as how we have never seen the Bijuu use the basic natures we can't say for sure they need to utilize them in order to use the Kekkei Genkai. What I'm trying to say is maybe it's only Shinobi that need the basic natures to create the Kekkei Genkai and the Bijuu have it naturally.

      To put what I mean into an example: Shukaku is able to use magnet release to manipulate Sand, When he is sealed inside of Jinchuriki he gifts them this ability as well, which is how Gaara was able to use Sand.

      On the Magnet Release page it says "The Third Kazekage studied the abilities of a previous jinchūriki of Shukaku and learned to imitate the power to control sand." which would lead one to believe the Bijuu knows it without the basic natures, while a human(Shinobi) must learn the basics before gaining the chakra nature. However this is only my personal theory, which is only backed by the facts Bijuu have been around since technically before jutsu's where even invented and still exist today. Also is backed up by Naruto's use of the Lava Release and Magnet Release through the Bijuu, and that he is not seen using Fire, Earth, ect.

      Like I said, it's only a theory I came up with and would like your opinion on it and other people's opinions as well.

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    • Munchvtec wrote: May I ask why "things" changed?

      Because the fire nation attacked, duh!

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    • Seelentau wrote:

      Munchvtec wrote: May I ask why "things" changed?

      Because the fire nation attacked, duh!

      http://i.imgur.com/gMbYm7u.gif

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    • Some of the logic here is unbelievable. I thought the point of the Nature type's box is to inform the reader WHAT NATURE TYPES THE CHARACTER IN QUESTION CAN USE. Notice the word "USE" rather than MAKE. We should add all the Tailed Beast Nature types he uses and their constitute elements i.e. the way it is now because we don't know what magnetic nature is made of.

      If Naruto can USE and not MAKE lava release can he not do the same with fire and earth?! Is it difficult to deduce that if the tailed beasts can send him complex chakra natures, they can send him the basic constitute natures too? E.g. given that Goku gave him Lava to use, surely Goku could give him fire and earth too. And just to clarify because someone brought it up, the tailed beasts also mix basic elements because all non-natural chakra came from the same source (God tree) and logically follows the same mechanisms unless otherwise stated.

      Fact: the bijuu can send him chakra natures. Do we really need to wait for more evidence? That's like saying we know Obito can teleport an elephant but we need evidence to prove he can also teleport a mouse. Back to Naruto, Even though he doesn't produce the elements, as they can be channelled through his body he can logically "USE" them via the tailed beasts so it should be in the NT box.

      Also someone above was complaining about how he cannot SUDDENLY start using a new nature. Well Sasuke SUDDENLY started using Blaze release after Itaches death, Obito SUDDENLY started using Wood release after his Hashi cell transplant. The point is regardless of the mechanism,those elements can be used suddenly by Naruto. Furthermore if someone has a KG transplant, its clear that the source of their KG is the transplant e.g. kakashi's kamui -> obitos eye; Obitos wood release -> Transplanted Hashi cells. Narutos situation is exactly the same, the only exceptions being that the Sources in his case have are alive. If you disagree then as someone above said all transplanted KG (including Sasuke's) should be removed because technically they are not doing it themselves as Elveonora incorrectly stated (from a technical point of view). It's like someone with a gun for an artificial eye, they are are firing the gun (like naruto) but don't provide the bullet as it is technically an artificial and foreign element embedded in their bodies (like the Bijuus). If you accept KG transplants it's illogical to deny Naruto's Bijuu avatar powers the same right.

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    • The point of this discussion is not "should Naruto be listed as a user of AB?", but "if he is a user of AB, is he also a user of A and B?".

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    • @Seelentau are you trying to antagonise? The title is "Naruto's Nature Type is missing information" The discussion revolves around that hence the subtopic talk "if he is a user of AB, is he also a user of A and B?" . This means I am completely on topic. Stop trying to waylay me by trying to suggest I'm off topic.

      It's already been stated you need to mix two element (via kakashi and yamoto) for a nature type KG so the individual must be able to use the two basic elements. Had you read my comment above you will see i covered that, I'll break it down:

      1) Given that all non-nature chakra including Bijuu's until stated otherwise logically follow the same mechanism as far manipulation is concerned because they have the same source (Juubi).

      2) Given the way KG nature manipulations work (mixing elements via kakashi and yamoto), due to to point 1), Bijuus also have to mix constituent natures.

      3) Therefore from point 2), Bijuu's must also have constituent natures for there require KG (if you can call them that)

      3) Given that naruto can USE the bijuu's KG he can also use the bijuu's basic elements.

      4) The Nature Type box should indicate this

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    • We don't know if K's and Y's explanation applies to tailed beasts. It's an assumption to say it does. This makes the rest of your arguments moot, I guess.

      Discussing if someone who uses an advanced nature through other means than a Kekkei Genkai automatically knows how to use the basic nature is a necessity to answer the topic's question.

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    • Silvarx wrote: @Seelentau are you trying to antagonise? The title is "Naruto's Nature Type is missing information" The discussion revolves around that hence the subtopic talk "if he is a user of AB, is he also a user of A and B?" . This means I am completely on topic. Stop trying to waylay me by trying to suggest I'm off topic.

      I like how you ask Seelentau if he's trying to antagonise you, when you just act very antagonistic to him by being rude. :/

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    • No it's not you're confusing an assumption with a logical deduction. If we both got water and I could break down into hydrogen and oxygen. Is it an an assumption to correctly say you can do the same. K & Y description was talking about combining elements I quote "By controlling the nature of 'earth' and 'water' at the same time He creates a new "wood" element". There was no scope by which you could limit their explanation to humans. He was saying if you somehow have the ability to blend two elements together you get element X. What you're saying now is equivalent to 1 + 1 = 2 for humans but it might not be for any other animal on earth. Given that the bijuu's have the same basis (juubi) they must follow the same rules. The Bijuu's were constructed by the remnants of the Juubi i.e. the source as the shinobi. What this means is that you can argue that there method of mixing might be different but what they mix and what they get out is the same e.g. fire + earth = lava. Furthermore notice how jinjuriki can use their bijuu's chakra's just like their own and this includes nature transformations. If Bijuu chakra was different jinjuriki would have to break it down first before using it. Remember the first time naruto used Kurama's chakra, he knew nothing about using it yet he did a summoning.


      "Discussing if someone who uses an advanced nature through other means than a Kekkei Genkai automatically knows how to use the basic nature is a necessity to answer the topic's question."


      This may be of necessity but it is still just a necessary subtopic and hence other matters can discussed while staying on topic.

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    • The discussion at hand is if Naruto can use FR and ER because he used the LR Son gave him. Not if a tailed beast can use the basic natures that make up an advanced nature.

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    • @Speysider I'm not going to be flowery when someone's being rude to me.

      @Seelentau Not to long ago you said:

      "The point of this discussion is not "should Naruto be listed as a user of AB?", but "if he is a user of AB, is he also a user of A and B?".

      No the dicussion at hand is and will remain the title of this thread "Narutos's Nature Type is missing information". All else falls under this.

      "The discussion at hand is if Naruto can use FR and ER because he used the LR Son gave him. Not if a tailed beast can use the basic natures that make up an advanced nature."

      This what i was covering before you insinuated i was off topic.

      IN ORDER TO COVER THE TOPIC YOU HAVE TO COVER WHETHER THE TAILED BEASTS CAN PRODUCE AND USE THE BASIC ELEMENTS THAT MAKE UP THE ADVANCED NATURES THEY SEND TO NARUTO.

      This is also necessary discussion to be had. As clearly if naruto can use lava style via Son then he can do so with FR and ER if son can make them.

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    • Okay, then we won't list him as a user of FR and ER, since we don't list him as a user of all the other tailed beast skills he now has the potential to use.

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    • Inversely I say we list him as a user of all the other tailed beast skills now because we list him as a FR and ER user (See his page).

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    • As far as I know, we already decided not to list him as a user of each and every tb skill, simply because he has never used them.

      Ironically, I was told earlier today that the potential to use a technique is enough to be listed as an actual user of a technique.

      So I'm confused now, gonna wait for more input.

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    • The articles must be clear and informative, not a mess of content. So we should focus on what was shown, not on potentialities.

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    • Seelentau wrote: As far as I know, we already decided not to list him as a user of each and every tb skill, simply because he has never used them.

      Ironically, I was told earlier today that the potential to use a technique is enough to be listed as an actual user of a technique.

      So I'm confused now, gonna wait for more input.

      Yes, because in Obito's case, he was stated to be in the process of casting it, proclaimed himself that he was using it, got distracted by Naruto and Sasuke kicking ass, and was stopped.

      Your logic, in regards to that technique, needs reexamining.

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    • Thunder God Cid wrote: The articles must be clear and informative, not a mess of content. So we should focus on what was shown, not on potentialities.

      Hence this dicussion, this is why we having a dicussion on how and why information might have been missing. Clarity and informativity are subjective which is why people are questioning the current format.

      And last I checked the Nature type's box is to show what natures the character is able to use including those he has access too. As far as I've seen potential has been enough to have the skill listed for example obito has both earth and water yet he has never used them. Would you leave them out?

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    • My opinion on our "policies" a character should have in its/his/her infobox only the natures it/he/she can personally use and hasn't used them through other means like Tailed Beasts and so, but that's just my opinion... or if we do list them anyway, we should specify "through/with x" and so, just like we used to back in the day, I don't know why things have changed.

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    • About Yamato and Kakashi's explanation, the only characters who used a KG without hand seals are Danzou, Obito and Zetsus. The only person who was able to use Mokuton is Hashirama that's why the only way for Danzou to use it is to combine Earth and Water in the part where Hashirama's cells lies and that is his right arm and that's means if he were to use Suiton it must be only from that part in case he didn't have it before the implant, the same way Obito used Mokuton in one hand and Zetsus with their whole body but they haven't shown the ability to create trees outside their bodies only Yamato and Madara did that (Yamato by having Hash cells in his whole body and Madara implant it in his heart which is the source of Chakra from seeing where Guy's last fading Chakra where). Roushi only was stated to use Youton by combining not Naruto, Naruto can get ONLY Youton chakra from the Son Goku inside of him and use it that's why he should be listed as a Lava release only until he shows us that he can use Earth/Fire Also Elveonora said listing him as a Lava Release is like listing him as Blaze Release, its different because Naruto using chakra from Son it's a tailed beast skill, Sasuke isn't inside of him to provide him with Inton

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    • @Mercurious you've literally reiterated what i said, which is that KG due to transplants orginate from the transplanted parts themselves.

      "Naruto can get ONLY Youton chakra from the Son Goku inside of him and use it that's why he should be listed as a Lava"

      From a logical point of view this is absurd. If the following is acceptable:

      Son produces & mixes -> Lava (fire + earth) -> Naruto uses

      Why is the following unacceptable?

      Son produces -> fire -> Naruto uses

      Son produces -> earth -> Naruto uses

      or even: Bijuu produces -> element X -> Naruto uses


      Because you haven't seen it?! That excuse simply doesn't stand especially as you make exceptions for other characters. Take Obito

      H-cells produce and mix -> Wood -> Obito uses <=> valid

      H-cells produce -> Water -> Obito uses <=> valid yet not seen

      H-cells produce -> earth -> Obito uses <=> valid yet not seen

      As similiarly said before is like saying goku who has both a mouse and elephant can hand naruto a elephant but not the mouse. Or i can send you a bacon sandwich but I cannot send you the bread or bacon seperately etc. K & Y clearly stated that mixing two elements gives you a new element (KG) the hand signs and the "how" is another issue which is possibly relevant.

      Also something to note is he has been given a portion / avatar etc of the beasts so to label it entirely as a tailed beast skill at least to the extent of a full blown jinjuriki is questionable.

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    • Seelentau wrote: We don't negotiate with people who refuse to adhere to basic grammar and interpunction.

      You shouldn't be so sententious.

      For all we know, he could have learning difficulties and so, being so impolitic isn't befitting.

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    • I don't expect anyone to write on a higher level than myself, but I expect people to have at least basic understanding of grammar and interpunction. If one does not have that, he or she should simply not come here, regardless of the reasons he/she does not have that.

      Also, having learning difficulties is not a reason not to try, but a reason to try even harder. It's not an excuse to write the way OP did.

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    • If people are incapable of restraining themselves and need to resort to insulting / rude messages to get their point across, this thread may need to be closed or the offending posts edited / removed from the thread.

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    • @Silvarx I tried to point out the difference between an advance nature KG and this Lava Release that Naruto used. It is valid to say that someone who can use the Mokuton can use its components because it is a KG unlike Naruto in this case. The lava Rasen-Shuriken was a jutsu used by borrowing Lava release chakra (already created by Son, Naruto wasn't the one to merge A and B) and using it, this isn't a KG so we cannot say that he could use the components earth/fire until we see Naruto using Fire Release by borrowing its chakra from Son or Matatabi, not listing him as a fire lease user is best. Saying Naruto can use Fire/Earth isn't valid since it is not the same as a KG and unlike Roushi who merged A and B to get AB. And it is a chakra from a Tailed Beast or from a portion of it, it is still a Tailed Beast Skill Now that we know Naruto can use Lava release and putting him as a user of not only Lava but fire/earth as well is the same as saying Naruto can separate the advance nature chakra into its components can he do that?? we don't know

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    • Elveonora wrote: My opinion on our "policies" a character should have in its/his/her infobox only the natures it/he/she can personally use and hasn't used them through other means like Tailed Beasts and so, but that's just my opinion... or if we do list them anyway, we should specify "through/with x" and so, just like we used to back in the day, I don't know why things have changed.

      And, as you've been told a thousand times now, if we go with your first idea, I'll make sure Tailed Beast Ball is removed from every jinchuriki shown capable of using it because, as you so blatantly ignore, a jinchuriki must shelve their own chakra to preform it. If the chakra is within the jinchuriki and they preform a technique with it, they are a user. You need to understand that. That's how its always been, that's how its always been documented, so your prejudice towards Naruto's situation needs to come to a halt.

      Edit: That would also include every other tailed beast skill we've seen a jinchuriki use (i.e., Roshi's Lava Release-yes his-, Fu's powder technique, B's ink. All of it).

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    • @Silvarx - It isn't subjective. Seeing Naruto's nature infobox, you may not actually know what he can use and what he can only access. Gaara's still says he is a jinchūriki. Kakashi still has a Sharingan ... All this is not being clear, only partial truths.

      My question is: why not specify? "Lava Release (with Goku)", "Jinchūriki (Former)", "Sharingan (Former)", for example. The infoboxes are full of "Manga Only" (and the anime hasn't even reached that point), why not use the same space to transmit more relevant content?

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    • @Mercurious I know very well what you were trying to point out and i was point out it's not valid. A KG is the ability to combine A and B to produce AB = C e.g.

      A + B -> C

      Now you can argue that the way Tailed beasts mix (A + B) to AB is different but that doesn't change the fact that they mix elements even if they don't go via the same route as KG. THE POINT IS KG OR TB, THEY ONLY DIFFERENCE IS HOW THEY MIX BUT THEY BOTH MIX AND SO CAN BE TREATED THE SAME.

      "putting him as a user of not only Lava but fire/earth as well is the same as saying Naruto can separate the advance nature chakra into its components can he do that?? "

      No it's not. YOU'RE saying that since we've only seen Naruto use Lava style via goku i.e.

      Goke (earth + fire , i.e. AB) -> Naruto to use

      Naruto would have to have th ability to seperate them out to use FR or ER.

      My point is doesn't matter what Naruto can produce or can do. He can use anything the Bijuu send him. Naruto can clearly recieve any chakra the tailed beasts want to send him. In other words, Goku who has fire nature chakra can send it to naruto if he asks.

      You're saying KG users are considered to use the constitutent elements because KG means:

      A + B -> C = AB

      But when Goku produces Lava, the same as any KG organ he does:

      A + B => C = AB (different arrow to show the method is different)

      This means both KG and TB have the same materials and produce the same product via different routes. Goku and the other Bijuu's even though they do it via another method serve the exact same function as any other KG transplant.

      Goku is has even been put down as a FR user. Are you telling me that he can send naruto an advanced nature but not a basic one?

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    • @Thunder God Cid yes it is subjective. The material we have to present is objective but how we present it is a matter of opinion i.e. What is clear and informative for one person may not be for another. For example if I wrote the entire page in spanish would it be clear and informative for the people in US?

      This is why people that have to present information (universities, companies etc) have meetings and decide based their opinion's of their particular field how they will present information.

      I do however agree with your idea of how we should present information at the bottom of your post.

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    • @Foxie, thought that referred to chakra mode in general, not TBB and was only temporary until Naruto and Kurama became buddies.

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    • @Silvarx just like I said you didn't get my point exactly. Son Goku's way of creating Lava Release is the same as every other KG that is what we know And it is clear that he can send Naruto the components like fire chakra and earth chakra just like he send him their combine form. The thing is this is not the same as listing a Wood Release user as both water and earth release user that is a fact we know. What I am trying to say is from Naruto's POV until now he received lava chakra to create a jutsu out of it that mean he can use lava release, and later he did the same with Sukaku's chakra that means he can use Magnet Release, until Son Goku sends him an earth or fire chakra its best not to list Naruto as a user of both (I know he can send fire/earth) since here we aren't talking about potential, and it is not like someone in the series stated that Naruto can use such Natures. For example Jiraiya stated that Nagato mastered all elements, but no one in the series said that Naruto can use all Tailed Beasts' Chakra while at the same time we know he could. once again it's from Naruto's POV since it is his article not Son Goku's

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Foxie, thought that referred to chakra mode in general, not TBB and was only temporary until Naruto and Kurama became buddies.

      Not temporary at all. B, or actually Gyuki through B, explained that tailed beasts who become friends with their containers simply negotiate a deal with the jinchuriki to take only a portion of said host's chakra in exchange for a portion of said Bijuu's chakra. They still have to shelve their chakra's to use the mode. Kurama was noted multiple times telling Naruto to "use his own chakra" until Kurama could create more Bijuu chakra for him to use. Naruto hasn't used his own chakra (minus the two or three times he was out of Chakra Mode) since this war began, meaning everything he's done since would be removed, since he's technically using Kurama's chakra to preform it.

      Tailed Beast Ball is a technique incapable of being preformed by humans, hence why Naruto has to be in Tailed Beast Mode to use it at all, which is, again, not his chakra, but Kurama's.

      Edit: What was temporary was Kurama eating up all of Naruto's chakra out of malice when Naruto used the Mode to begin with. That ended when they became friends.

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    • @ Elveonora If Naruto can take Lava Release Chakra from Son Goku BY FORCE should he be listed as Lava Release user? And you're against it because he did that by asking Son not by force?. If so what is the differenence since in both cases the Jinchuriki used a skill from the Bijuu and normally it's unavailable for him

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    • @Mercurious yes now that makes sense. If I understand you correctly you're saying because he himself doesn't actually produce the constitute elements, he's probably not aware he can use FR or ER via Goke therefore it is best not to add it.

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    • MERCURIOUS wrote: @ Elveonora If Naruto can take Lava Release Chakra from Son Goku BY FORCE should he be listed as Lava Release user? And you're against it because he did that by asking Son not by force?. If so what is the differenence since in both cases the Jinchuriki used a skill from the Bijuu and normally it's unavailable for him

      That's the thing. There is no difference.

      People are getting their shorts bunched because Naruto can suddenly use advanced natures thanks to the Tailed Beasts inside of him, but then they want to make excuses for Roshi and the other jinchuriki. No. It doesn't work that way. Its either they're all added as users of tailed beast skills, or none of them are.

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    • @Ten Tailed Fox - Elveonora also said: "... or if we do list them anyway, we should specify "through/with x" and so, just like we used to back in the day, I don't know why things have changed."

      And about that?

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    • @Foxie, they merge their chakras in Tailed Beast Mode and can use TBB, so you aren't entirely correct.

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    • I never said there is a difference, where do people get that from?

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    • Naruto's situation is the exact same as Roshi's. Roshi's use of Lava Release from day one was attributed to Son, using Son's ability. For all we know Roshi has no fire or earth chakra on his own, yet he is listed as Fire and Earth Release user as well.

      Not to have someone who uses Lava Release as a user of earth and fire is like having a Rasenshuriken user not to be listed as a Rasengan user.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Naruto's situation is the exact same as Roshi's. Roshi's use of Lava Release from day one was attributed to Son, using Son's ability. For all we know Roshi has no fire or earth chakra on his own, yet he is listed as Fire and Earth Release user as well.

      Not to have someone who uses Lava Release as a user of earth and fire is like having a Rasenshuriken user not to be listed as a Rasengan user.

      ^ Exactly this.

      There is no "lava" chakra anymore than there is "wood chakra". Lava is fire and earth chakra used in tandem, allowing them to produce lava, but they're still fire and earth. When Naruto made that Rasenshuriken with lava, he was using earth and fire.

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    • You can't use an advanced release without being able to use its parent releases, as Yamato and Kakashi taught Naruto when he was learning RasenShuriken. Yamato showed you have to wield each release and combine them. Earth in one and Water in the other for Wood Release for example

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    • There are only 2 solutions for this:

      • we list Naruto as user of Earth, Fire and Lava
      • we list neither

      @Omni: "either both Roshi and Naruto have all the basic natures, or neither has, their situation is the same" That's what I and Seel argue about, their situation is different. We believe Roshi could actually use Earth, Fire and Lava, unlike Naruto who was handled it.

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    • Elveonora wrote: There are only 2 solutions for this:

      • we list Naruto as user of Earth, Fire and Lava
      • we list neither

      @Omni: "either both Roshi and Naruto have all the basic natures, or neither has, their situation is the same" That's what I and Seel argue about, their situation is different. We believe Roshi could actually use Earth, Fire and Lava, unlike Naruto who was handled it.

      What you two believe is irrelevant entirely. You have no proof. The fact that Roshi and his tailed beast of 40 years shared a kekkei genkai "by coincidence" is utter nonsense.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: There is no "lava" chakra anymore than there is "wood chakra". Lava is fire and earth chakra used in tandem, allowing them to produce lava, but they're still fire and earth. When Naruto made that Rasenshuriken with lava, he was using earth and fire.

      But this does not change the fact that the fire and earth chakras, and the ability to merge them and produce lava, belongs to Son, not Naruto. Why not inform this?

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    • That's not what I meant. Roshi knew how to use Earth and Fire and being Son Goku's jinchuuriki, had the power to merge the two for Lava. Now, Naruto being Son Goku's pseudo-jinchuuriki (yes) may or may not have the power for advanced nature, but the thing is, his usage wasn't actually his, since Son Goku handled him the chakra and Naruto doesn't know how to use Fire and Earth.

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    • Elveonora wrote: That's not what I meant. Roshi knew how to use Earth and Fire and being Son Goku's jinchuuriki, had the power to merge the two for Lava. Now, Naruto being Son Goku's pseudo-jinchuuriki (yes) may or may not have the power for advanced nature, but the thing is, his usage wasn't actually his, since Son Goku handled him the chakra and Naruto doesn't know how to use Fire and Earth.

      Deny jinchuriki all you want. The fact is he is the jinchuriki.

      And again. What's your proof, beyond baseless speculation, that Roshi ever had any affinity prior to becoming Son's Jinchuriki? I'm eager to hear it. Your entire argument is null without that proof because then, by your logic concerning Naruto, which we have proof of, we'd be removing Roshi as a Lava user, which isn't happening.

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    • I would really like to know why the administrators don't say anything about the suggestion of assigning Naruto's Fire, Earth and Lava to Son Goku in the infobox.

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    • It was said about Roshi that he learned how to mix earth and fire to create lava thanks to Yonbi. That wasn't said about Naruto.

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    • What Seel said, I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend for the sysops.

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    • Seelentau wrote: It was said about Roshi that he learned how to mix earth and fire to create lava thanks to Yonbi. That wasn't said about Naruto.

      No said that. Ever. Manga or anime. It was said that his ability to use Lava Release came from Yonbi (like every other jinchuriki's tailed beast skill comes from their Bijuu). Not that he learned to use those natures from Son.

      Elveonora wrote: What Seel said, I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend for the sysops.

      Because you think that because you have a "strong feeling" about something that it makes it fact. I don't care how you interpret it or "comprehend" the Naruto universe. If that's what gets you through the night, go for it. But factually, you are incorrect, and your persistence to push your "feelings" over fact is what I (can't speak for anyone else) can't comprehend.

      Edit: Still waiting on that proof I've asked for twice now.

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    • Hmm, the third databook states (as literal as possible) "At the journey's end by borrowing Yonbi's power, (Roshi) mastered the earth and fire natures fusing Yoton Ninjutsu." or (not so literal) "At the the end of the journey, Roshi mastered the Yoton Ninjutsu, which fuses fire and erath natures, by borrowing Yonbi's power."

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    • You know I'm actually impressed this is still going.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Hmm, the third databook states (as literal as possible) "At the journey's end by borrowing Yonbi's power, (Roshi) mastered the earth and fire natures fusing Yoton Ninjutsu." or (not so literal) "At the the end of the journey, Roshi mastered the Yoton Ninjutsu, which fuses fire and erath natures, by borrowing Yonbi's power."

      Was this not precisely what Naruto was doing by asking Son to use his chakra? What is your argument again?

      Edit: I will thank you, though, because this blows Elve's "he knew Fire and Earth beforehand" right out of the water.

      Edit 2: If anything, the third databook confirms that a jinchuriki can master the elements needed to use Lava just by borrowing (which Naruto did) power from Son Goku.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: Edit 2: If anything, the third databook confirms that a jinchuriki can master the elements needed to use Lava just by borrowing (which Naruto did) power from Son Goku.

      After a journey (which Naruto didn't, and why he still needs Son Goku to use Fire/Earth/Lava).

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    • What's to say Naruto didn't skip said journey because he could simply ask Son Goku for the lava? What's to say that Roshi's journey wasn't also "Beat the snot out of the giant monkey and take the ability of Lava by force"?

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    • Yonbi notes in a canon flashback, back when Naruto talked to all the beasts in his subconscious, that he and Roshi weren't on good terms. Even Roshi admits to this. So it make sense that Roshi would have to go on a "journey" to gain power that Naruto can simply ask for, in the same manner that Naruto had to go through all that training with Jiraiya to force Kurama to give him chakra before they became friends and he could ask for it.

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    • If they needs to ask (Naruto) or take (Roshi), it's still Son Goku's skill, not theirs.

      Edit: Look, I'm not saying Naruto can't use FR, ER or LR, what I'm saying is he can't use it by himself, and that's why we should put this information in the infobox.

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    • Thunder God Cid wrote: If they needs to ask (Naruto) or take (Roshi), it's still Son Goku's skill, not theirs.

      Edit: Look, I'm not saying Naruto can't use FR, ER or LR, what I'm saying is he can't use it by himself, and that's why we should put this information in the infobox.

      And I'm saying it doesn't matter how he uses it, he does. We don't need to go making ten million annotations because its already been established that jinchuriki are special cases who get some of their unique traits from their Bijuu.

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    • If it really doesn't matter, this topic wouldn't be generating so much discussion. If something established isn't enough, it needs to be complemented. Look at Naruto's infobox now and you'll see "ten million" annotations, in every single nature. Most (Manga Only). Why not use this space in a better way, with more valuable information?

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    • Thunder God Cid wrote: If it really doesn't matter, this topic wouldn't be generating so much discussion. If something established isn't enough, it needs to be complemented. Look at Naruto's infobox now and you'll see "ten million" annotations, in every single nature. Most (Manga Only). Why not use this space in a better way, with more valuable information?

      You'd be surprised how many insignificant topics turn into dung flinging matches around here. It doesn't matter. At all.

      Naruto, Roshi, and the other jinchuriki are all users of their tailed beast skills (however they acquire them) and so it gets listed in their infoboxes. See? Short. Simple. To the point. Pointless annotations are pointless. Jinchuriki are already special cases and so those annotations aren't needed.

      Manga only annotations are there because the anime has the ability to royally screw with manga timelines (look at animes like FMA) and, at times, have been noted to depict information wrong. That's the only reason those tags are there.

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    • Let's continue this discussion until the manga states the facts, ya? :D

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    • Talk about ignorance and bias. You two simply want things to go your way, but a reality check, you aren't the authors. ""Hmm, the third databook states (as literal as possible) "At the journey's end by borrowing Yonbi's power, (Roshi) mastered the earth and fire natures fusing Yoton Ninjutsu." or (not so literal) "At the the end of the journey, Roshi mastered the Yoton Ninjutsu, which fuses fire and erath natures, by borrowing Yonbi's power.""

      It says clearly that Roshi mastered earth and fire natures and could fuse them into yoton by borrowing Son Goku's power Where did you Ulti and Foxie see Naruto training for Doton or Katon and fusing anything? All I saw was Son Goku handling Naruto the chakra, end of story.

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    • No, the databook doesn't say that Roshi mastered those natures. It says that he mastered the nature which fuses those two natures. The problem is, we don't know what "power" he borrowed from Son. Maybe Roshi did it like the Kazekage and simply copied what Son did? We don't know at all.

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    • Mastering Yoton tho equals to having mastered Katon and Doton too, since Yoton is just that.

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    • Weeeee don't know.

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    • You know, there is good Scar .gif that could go right here, perfect for this discussion, but due to policies and the... demeanor of others, I'll refrain from posting it. I'll just pretend its here and chuckle to myself.

      I've said all I want to say in this discussion. For the sake of everyone's sanity, more importantly my own, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds for a bit.

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    • Ya, me too. It's like discussing if a cake tastes good or bad while it's still in the oven.

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    • I don't even know what this topic is about anymore.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: You can't use an advanced release without being able to use its parent releases, as Yamato and Kakashi taught Naruto when he was learning RasenShuriken. Yamato showed you have to wield each release and combine them. Earth in one and Water in the other for Wood Release for example

      Thing is Naruto ISN'T using them, he is being given them.

      Biju creates the chakra nature -> Gives it to Naruto -> Naruto Unleashes it.

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    • BeyondRed wrote: What does having a nature listed in the infobox actually mean, though? That the person is currently able to use the nature, or that they are potentially able to use it? We know being a jinchuriki gives one the potential to use their tailed beast's ability: Gaara could control sand even after losing Shukaku, and Roshi used Lava during his fight with Naruto and B before it was revealed that Four-Tails was resealed in him, implying he could use it without Goku too.

      If Naruto is Goku's jinchuriki (that's a separate argument entirely) like Roshi, then he does definitely have the potential to use Lava Release, but he isn't currently able to do so because he hasn't learned to create Fire or Earth nature chakra yet. Thus, Goku handles the Fire and Earth part for him and Naruto handles the Rasengan part, and the same is true for Shukaku and Magnet. So whether the natures are listed in Naruto's infobox or not should depend on whether it lists current abilities or potential abilities (and Orochimaru being listed with Water and Wood implies that we list based on potential). Either way, Naruto's abilities section should make it clear that he has yet to show whether he can use those natures on his own, since we don't know.

      Finally someone that I agree with.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: You know, there is good Scar .gif that could go right here, perfect for this discussion, but due to policies and the... demeanor of others, I'll refrain from posting it. I'll just pretend its here and chuckle to myself.

      I've said all I want to say in this discussion. For the sake of everyone's sanity, more importantly my own, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds for a bit.

      As someone who has always thought Disney villains were always more interesting characters than the leads, I know exactly the gif you're talking about. Not my favorite Disney villain, but he does get a lot credit for actually getting someone killed instead of just threatening others and being menacing.

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    • My attempt at a real world example.

      The options presented:

      • Son has Green chakra (premixed Blue and Yellow)-> Gives to Naruto and uses
      • Son has Blue and Yellow chakra -> Blends into Green-> Gives to Naruto and uses
      • Son has Blue and Yellow chakra-> gives to Naruto-> Naruto blends and uses

      For arguments sake, yes Naruto is using Lava/Magnet Release. On the fact he can use Fire/Earth + whatever magnet release is, I'll respond with this. To note the first bullet, has it been mentioned in canon the possibility of learning the component natures AFTER using said advanced version? Ex: Breathing air. You know you are surrounded by it, but you don't necessarily know what's in it.

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    • The fact is, we don't know if "mastery" of the Fire and Earth natures is required to use Lava Release. Remember that in canon, we've never been told that using all five natures is unheard of, but it has been implied that mastering them all is (like Nagato did). The entire shinobi alliance was able to use a rudimentary Earth Release technique without any prior training, and Kakashi wasn't surprised that Kakuzu could use four different natures, but that he could use high-level (B-rank) techniques of four different natures, which he said requires mastering the natures perfectly.

      So maybe, just like the alliance's earth barriers, mixing two natures together only requires the bare minimum level of skill with them. That would explain how Haku and Obito were apparently able to use their "advanced natures" without receiving any sort of training for them. Ever since that earth barrier incident, we really need to reevaluate what it means to use a nature, since that made it clear any average ninja can use low-level elemental techniques.

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    • We didn't see Naruto blend them, so 1 or 2.

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    • Also the entire alliance didn't use Doton, there were like tens to hundred walls, not a few then thousands. To me obviously at least, all those who used Doton there already knew Doton.

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    • Jesus Christ... Did none of you hear Yamato and Kakashi's explanation of HOW Kekke Genkei work? He explained Ice Release and Wood Release as examples. Seelentau maybe you should get the raw for that Chapter and post it's translation here. This is for everyone else because Ten Tails is right with what he said about tailed beast skills. There is two options nobody can prove right now, Naruto Borrowed Lava release Chakra from Son, he didn't borrow earth and fire release seperately and combine them himself. Or he did borrow earth and fire and he did combine them himself. Until it is actually elaborated upon further in databook/manga then you know what we have to do

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    • On the 'Truth Seeking Ball' page, it says that the technique uses Yin-Yang Release. If this is indeed true, the Naruto should have Yin-Yang Release as one of his Nature Type. This means that he should be able to use Yin Release and Yang Release separately as well. Plus, if Naruto has the Sage of Six Paths Technique, then it would automatically mean that he could use Yin and Yang Release, as seen with Obito, Madara, Naruto and the Sage himself.

      Madara should be able to use all nature transformations including the sub-elements. This is due to the fact that the Rinnegan enables the user to master all five basic elements. He managed to produce Storm Release by combining Water and Lightening chakra. Therefore in theory, he should be able to use Ice Release, Lava Release, and so on. This would mean that Sasuke should be able to do the same as well.

      ASSUMING THAT YOU MASTER ALL FIVE BASIC CHAKRA NATURE

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      Ten Tailed Fox wrote: You know, there is good Scar .gif that could go right here, perfect for this discussion, but due to policies and the... demeanor of others, I'll refrain from posting it. I'll just pretend its here and chuckle to myself.

      I've said all I want to say in this discussion. For the sake of everyone's sanity, more importantly my own, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds for a bit.

      As someone who has always thought Disney villains were always more interesting characters than the leads, I know exactly the gif you're talking about. Not my favorite Disney villain, but he does get a lot credit for actually getting someone killed instead of just threatening others and being menacing.

      So glad someone understands me ;-;

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    • Yukia0506 wrote: On the 'Truth Seeking Ball' page, it says that the technique uses Yin-Yang Release. If this is indeed true, the Naruto should have Yin-Yang Release as one of his Nature Type. This means that he should be able to use Yin Release and Yang Release separately as well. Plus, if Naruto has the Sage of Six Paths Technique, then it would automatically mean that he could use Yin and Yang Release, as seen with Obito, Madara, Naruto and the Sage himself.

      Madara should be able to use all nature transformations including the sub-elements. This is due to the fact that the Rinnegan enables the user to master all five basic elements. He managed to produce Storm Release by combining Water and Lightening chakra. Therefore in theory, he should be able to use Ice Release, Lava Release, and so on. This would mean that Sasuke should be able to do the same as well.

      A perfect example of how things are not and what we should not do.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Also the entire alliance didn't use Doton, there were like tens to hundred walls, not a few then thousands. To me obviously at least, all those who used Doton there already knew Doton.

      Except the entire alliance, bar few enough people that you can count on your hands, did. The entire point of Shikamaru's strategy at that moment was to do make a wall with everyone contributing to it.

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    • Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were still 40 000 units in the alliance at the time. There was hardly hundred of walls. You guys take either things too literary or ignore them when they are plain obvious, this goes beyond me. Even Naruto who has an affinity for Wind had to learn how to transform his chakra into Wind chakra. If anyone could use a lowest rank technique of all natures, that would have meant that everyone is a user of all natures

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    • Do note that the Tailed Beast Ball they were trying to stop was huge and likely covering far more than what we could actually see in panel.

      Do note that we basically only saw the end of that "Operation: Wall to Stop Spherical Death Time".

      Do note that Shikamaru said something along the lines of "We had them do a basic earth jutsu that everyone could do." then some spiel about "slowing it down with many smaller walls because they don't have a large stronger one".

      And seeing how a prerequisite (could be wrong on prerequisite) of becoming a Konoha Jonin at all is being able to use at least two nature transformations well, it is not beyond the realm of disbelief that yeah, everyone does have the natural ability to use every nature if they learn how, they just have an affinity with one which makes them a "natural" at learning it.

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    • And even then, Naruto's training was about using that wind chakra and make it into a Rasengan. Keep in mind that a regular Rasengan was difficult to make, and he couldn't make that on his own, he got help from a tailed beast.

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    • Two chakra natures are not a prerequisite. It's just that by the time shinobi jonin, it's usual that they can use two natures. Look at Guy and Kurenai, or previous Ino-Shika-Cho for exceptions.

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    • "if they learn how" exactly, how did they suddenly learn how to mold Doton chakra mere seconds before their extinction? Unless they were telepathically explained so, they had to have known how to use Doton already by themselves prior.

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    • They where linked through Ino. Shikamaru said they were all explained how to do it by that large Iwa ninja.

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    • Yeah, so what's the problem?

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    • No idea. It supports my argument. They used a earth wall after being taught how.

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    • Oh no, TheUltimate! Don't use supporting information! That might be *gasp* "bias".

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    • 54.198.142.255
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