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Kekkai Genkai

  • Why aren't Naruto's Lava Release and the other releases through the Bijuu's power(Magnet Release) considered a Kekkai Genkai?

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    • Because people and their biased reasoning :P

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    • Because the manga is in state where no one knows what to do with the given information anymore. This wiki should be locked until the manga is over or so...

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    • I don't follow? Kekkai Genkai are bloodline traits last time I checked. Meaning it's passed down through family members only (except for people who implant eyes/cells into their body) Meaning only members of a certain clan can awaken it (sharingan-uchiha clan) Naruto's lava release is a tailed beast skill. Anyone can use a tailed beast skill, if they have a tailed beast. It's not a bloodline trait.

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    • Jason7868 wrote: I don't follow? Kekkai Genkai are bloodline traits last time I checked. Meaning it's passed down through family members only (except for people who implant eyes/cells into their body) Meaning only members of a certain clan can awaken it (sharingan-uchiha clan) Naruto's lava release is a tailed beast skill. Anyone can use a tailed beast skill, if they have a tailed beast. It's not a bloodline trait.

      Then how Gaara can have magnet relise without Shikaku, and where did Madara get storm relise?

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Jason7868 wrote: I don't follow? Kekkai Genkai are bloodline traits last time I checked. Meaning it's passed down through family members only (except for people who implant eyes/cells into their body) Meaning only members of a certain clan can awaken it (sharingan-uchiha clan) Naruto's lava release is a tailed beast skill. Anyone can use a tailed beast skill, if they have a tailed beast. It's not a bloodline trait.

      Then how Gaara can have magnet relise without Shikaku, and where did Madara get storm relise?

      Madara most likely got storm release from his rinnegan, since the rinnegan enables you to use all of the nature changes. Also magnet release doesn't seem to be a kekai genkai. Toroi, the 4th and 3rd kazekage all use it, and they're not blood related. As for Gaara, it's been shown that the tailed beasts skills stay with the user after extraction.

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    • Rage gtx wrote: Then how Gaara can have magnet relise without Shikaku, and where did Madara get storm relise?

      Gaara was Shukaku's jinchuriki and as such had a little of its chakra even after Akatsuki extracted it, while Madara has the Rinnegan and all the tailed beasts' chakra so I don't find it surprising that he can use Storm Release.

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    • Jason7868 wrote:

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Jason7868 wrote: I don't follow? Kekkai Genkai are bloodline traits last time I checked. Meaning it's passed down through family members only (except for people who implant eyes/cells into their body) Meaning only members of a certain clan can awaken it (sharingan-uchiha clan) Naruto's lava release is a tailed beast skill. Anyone can use a tailed beast skill, if they have a tailed beast. It's not a bloodline trait.

      Then how Gaara can have magnet relise without Shikaku, and where did Madara get storm relise?

      Madara most likely got storm release from his rinnegan, since the rinnegan enables you to use all of the nature changes. Also magnet release doesn't seem to be a kekai genkai. Toroi, the 4th and 3rd kazekage all use it, and they're not blood related. As for Gaara, it's been shown that the tailed beasts skills stay with the user after extraction.

      So he has Magnet relise but there`s no Shikaku in him, he has trace of Ichibi chakra and can use it on his own? By same logic should add that Madara`s mokuton(which listed as kkg) is a hokage man skill or something instead of kkg.

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    • Gaara could of inherited it from his father, the fourth kazekage.

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Jason7868 wrote:

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Jason7868 wrote: I don't follow? Kekkai Genkai are bloodline traits last time I checked. Meaning it's passed down through family members only (except for people who implant eyes/cells into their body) Meaning only members of a certain clan can awaken it (sharingan-uchiha clan) Naruto's lava release is a tailed beast skill. Anyone can use a tailed beast skill, if they have a tailed beast. It's not a bloodline trait.

      Then how Gaara can have magnet relise without Shikaku, and where did Madara get storm relise?

      Madara most likely got storm release from his rinnegan, since the rinnegan enables you to use all of the nature changes. Also magnet release doesn't seem to be a kekai genkai. Toroi, the 4th and 3rd kazekage all use it, and they're not blood related. As for Gaara, it's been shown that the tailed beasts skills stay with the user after extraction.

      So he has Magnet relise but there`s no Shikaku in him, he has trace of Ichibi chakra and can use it on his own? By same logic should add that Madara`s mokuton(which listed as kkg) is a hokage man skill or something instead of kkg.

      I don't see why wood release is classified as a kekkai genkai (on this site) The only people who have been shown using it, have implanted Hashirama's cells inside of themselves. Even Tobirama, his own brother, couldn't use it. Neither his granddaughter. It's naturally only the first hokage's jutsu.

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    • Umishiru wrote: Gaara could of inherited it from his father, the fourth kazekage.

      Yeap he may, but reason to add magnet relise was becose of Shikaku has it, he(Gaara) never showed it actually.

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    • Because its a jutsu that originates from the dna and can not be learned or taught without having that dna. As for why Wood release has not returned naturally, you will just have to ask Kishi about the recessive and dominate genes that control Hashirama's wood release and how it reacts with other genes down the generations.

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    • Umishiru wrote: Because its a jutsu that originates from the dna and can not be learned or taught without having that dna. As for why Wood release has not returned naturally, you will just have to ask Kishi about the recessive and dominate genes that control Hashirama's wood release and how it reacts with other genes down the generations.

      No what he did mean wasn`t about genes, what he and i try to say that Madara and Obito and Danzo use implanted Hashi cells(and they work as mediator for mokuton) just like jinchuriki use taled beast skill, so or it both sides have kkg or it both sides used skill

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    • The cells have what, Hashirama's dna. Its from the implanted dna that Obito, Danzo, and Madara gained wood release. I also suspect that being that generations Ashura incarnation may have had a influence on his genetics.

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    • Umishiru wrote: The cells have what, Hashirama's dna. Its from the implanted dna that Obito, Danzo, and Madara gained wood release. I also suspect that being that generations Ashura incarnation may have had a influence on his genetics.

      Yes, just as you say, but still that Hashi cells and dna(Not Obito, Danzo, and Madara`s) so none of them can produce mokuton chakra on his own.Same goes for beasts(without cells and dna stuff) jinchuriki implanted(sealed) whole beast or portion of it in self and gained Biju kkg.

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    • So if Son Goku's Lava isn't a KKG because not inheritable by blood, then so isn't Rinnegan, because duh, no descendants inherited it and just a merger of two chakras recreates it, so not genetic, therefore not a KKG?

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    • Moreover KKG can be gained by eating like in Kaguya`s case(or it`s TBS?)?

      ---update---

      And i forgot KinGinBros.

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    • Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Tota are chakra abilities you are born with not necessary blood related. Naruto wasn't born with Lava release as the fifth Mizukage is just an ability he gained after becoming Son jinchuriki. Also Magnet release is not a tailed beast ability it's a Kekkei Genkai the third and forth kazekage had and another guy I don't remember, they could however control sand because the third incorporated iron in the sand and the forth gold so they were controling the metal within the sand to move the sand, however Gara can control sand directly because of Shukaku (as I already explained Magnet release is not the ability to control sand it should be called Sand release) and it has been shown that you keep the ability even after you loose the beast probably because you merge with the beast chakra. Also Madara gaining various Kekkei Genkais I think it's because he has all the beasts and also the Rinnegan which doesn't teach a person every jutsu but gives the ability to potentially learn every technique, however I consider a mistake to list his Wood release as Kekkei Genkai (and every other Kekkei Genaki he has achieved without beeing born with), and also Obito's and Danzo's because they only achieved it trough experimentation. And while I am in the subject I also consider doujutsu not to be Kekkei Genkai as they are not chakra abilities but eyes powers however this one is just a theory and I don't have valid arguments to defend it.

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    • The way I see it, a Kekkai Genkai is a genetic trait, and someone can only possess a Kekkai Genkai ability if they do so through genetic means. If the ability is found in a person's genes, and they are shown using it they have a Kekkai Genkai. If a person uses the genetic material of someone else to attain an ability it is still a Kekkai Genkai by virtue of relying on said DNA. Cases such as Naruto using Lava Release have not been classified as Kekkai Genkai as they do not make use of genetic material or DNA, instead they are the result of living chakra. Unless Kishi calls the use of a tailed beasts power Kekkai Genkai, it would be misleading for us to do so.

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    • Then we have contradiction here Kakashi stated(during Naruto wind relise training) that ability to mold multiple basic element`s into new ones can be considered as KKG.So all we need is follow Occam's razor logic.

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    • Not contradictory at all. That's how it works for humans. The only way a normal human can form an advanced nature type is through a KKG, whether they are born with it or obtain it through adding someone else's genetic material to their body is irrelevant. A Jinchūriki is a separate matter. We have yet to know the full details on how the sealing of a tailed beast effects its host's body. Going by Naruto, the jinchūriki uses the beast's chakra, meaning no genetic changes are necessary for them to use an advanced nature. Whether the tailed beasts themselves have traits that are classified as KKG is another issue, and one that has no baring on the jinchūriki. The jinchūriki is making use of their chakra, not their DNA.

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    • Soul reaper wrote: Not contradictory at all. That's how it works for humans. The only way a normal human can form an advanced nature type is through a KKG, whether they are born with it or obtain it through adding someone else's genetic material to their body is irrelevant. A Jinchūriki is a separate matter. We have yet to know the full details on how the sealing of a tailed beast effects its host's body. Going by Naruto, the jinchūriki uses the beast's chakra, meaning no genetic changes are necessary for them to use an advanced nature. Whether the tailed beasts themselves have traits that are classified as KKG is another issue, and one that has no baring on the jinchūriki. The jinchūriki is making use of their chakra, not their DNA.

      Kakashi stated about mixing 2 types, not about sourses for chakra.So for jinchūriki using advanced natures is KKG until is proven otherwise.Element`s jinchūriki utilises from Biju being TBS is interpretation of this site user`s(not stated in manga). But becose of that we have semantic issue: mixing 2(advanced nature) natures is KKG, those who can do it have KKG, jinchūriki uses advanced nature uses TBS(Never stated in manga).

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    • Again, this thread is about Naruto. Naruto is explicitly asking for the tailed beasts' chakra. That's not speculation, that's literally what's happening. It's not his chakra, it's their's. It's explicitly stated right their in the text that that's what he's doing. They might have KKG, he does not.

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    • Ok then. Why does Gaara still have magnet relise(that added after Ichibi showed it) without Shikaku and it`s TBS. Why in Naruto element bar listed elements more than wind?(if it is Buju relise not Naruto, he only borrow it from them). And again your conclusion is not stated in manga(moreover Naruto was shown borrowing Son and Shikaku chakra to explain to readers origin of that power in Naruto).That thing about KKG for jinchūriki work`s different, can you show me reference where in manga that stated?

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    • Kekkei Genkai =/= Tailed Beast Skill. That's pretty much all there's to it.

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    • Yes and 5=/=6 but 5 does not have 6 and same time you can take 5 from 6. So Kekkei Genkai =/= Tailed Beast Skill but TBS can be KKG as well.

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    • You forget that Gaara's father the Fourth Kazekage has magnet release, for all we know Gaara could of inherited it from his father which allowed him to continue his sand fighting style despite no longer having Ichibi.

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    • That's why Gaara is potentially the worst example to be used for this discussion. He was Shukaku's host, his father had Magnet Release, and it was even stated at one point that his control over sand was based on his mother's love. Gaara is likely going to be a circular conversation in regards to this topic.

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    • No! Gaara get magnet relese after Naruto(whith Shikaku) used it in spoiler chapter. He newer displayed magnet relise himself.

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    • Naruto doesn't get listed as kekkei genkai user because what he's using is not kekkei genkai, it's tailed beast skill, or even the senjutsu of the Six Paths Madara mentioned, which would also explain how Madara is suddenly using Storm Release. Kekkei genkai and kekkei touta are abilities which stem from genetic characteristics. If you can do them through a mean that isn't genetically sourced, you're obviously not using a kekkei genkai. I still argue that the tailed beasts shouldn't listed as having kekkei genkai, at least as far as nature transformations are concerned. Even if they can bleed and age and etc, I don't quite see their powers as being genetic. No mutation happened in them to grant them their powers. They came into being like that. Rinnegan on its own only allows the potential to use the basic nature transformations, you still have to learn them all. It just gives you an edge. I think there needs to be a careful discussion on Shukaku's case to determine what his jutsu are and aren't Jiton. Wood Release is kekkei genkai because it's been explicitly called so. In the manga, and in the databook. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is trying to block the sun with a sieve.

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    • there seems to be two style of getting the special natures either by Blood or Tailed beast chakra.

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    • So the Sharingan isn't a Kekkei Genkai either because a woman got impregnated by a magical chakra fruit. And so isn't the Rinnegan, because simply re-merging the bloodlines doesn't recreate it, no, merger of two chakras does, therefore Rinnegan isn't genetic so not a KKG. How do you answer to that Omni?

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    • So the Natures that you get after awakening the Rinnegan aren't Kekkei Genkai. Because you get those because of the Rinnegan.

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    • You don't get any natures after you awaken the Rinnegan...

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    • Why would you want the Rinnegan if the Sharingan is more effective.

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    • I think the line between chakra and genes is much thinner than people realize. I don't think it should be differentiated at all at this point. Son Goku's Lava and Shukaku's Magnet are Kekkei Genkai in my book. It's irrelevant that they weren't born wit a mutation, because Kaguya wasn't either.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I think the line between chakra and genes is much thinner than people realize. I don't think it should be differentiated at all at this point. Son Goku's Lava and Shukaku's Magnet are Kekkei Genkai in my book. It's irrelevant that they weren't born wit a mutation, because Kaguya wasn't either.

      I actually agree with this. Chakra and genes seem to be separated by a very thin line.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: I actually agree with this. Chakra and genes seem to be separated by a very thin line.

      I agree. +1

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    • According to current majority's reasoning, Kaguya's Sharingan/Rinnegan whatever was a Tailed Beast Skill while only Hagoromo's Kekkei Genkai since he was presumably born with it. This reasoning obviously has to change, because it's wrong. All advanced natures and stuff should be considered a Kekkei Genkai, even if used by a Tailed Beast. They didn't have to be born through sex nor do they have to pass on the traits through reproduction, chakra alone can do so.

      First humans to use chakra after the Trinity didn't presumably even have chakra pathway system originally. They got it from Hagoromo's chakra transfer and only their children were born with it. You could say it evolved humans. Chakra obviously has effect on physiology, hence Naruto gets fox traits once too much of Kurama's chakra takes over. Even more drastic exposure to chakra highly likely affects genetics itself, hence Kaguya.

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    • Elveonora wrote: So the Sharingan isn't a Kekkei Genkai either because a woman got impregnated by a magical chakra fruit. And so isn't the Rinnegan, because simply re-merging the bloodlines doesn't recreate it, no, merger of two chakras does, therefore Rinnegan isn't genetic so not a KKG. How do you answer to that Omni?

      We still don't know if Kaguya had the Sharingan before or after eating the fruit. If eating the fruit is the equivalent of a mutation happening in an individual, and then becoming prevalent in a population, it is a kekkei genkai. It's like Hashirama being the first Wood Release user. Rinnegan I agree it's iffy, but still works if you consider that there are ties between genetics and chakra. Mu was able to determine that Gaara's chakra was similar to his father's before knowing who it was, and was able to determine that many people were from different populations through their chakra. Chakra does in some way depend on genetics. With the Rinnegan, it just seems chakra determines genetics instead. You get both chakras, you get "both genes", you get Rinnegan. I know that still doesn't really explain Sasuke's Rinnegan, but he got something from Hagoromo himself so, I'm just rolling with it. Just because we can make sense and see what's wrong, doesn't mean that Kishimoto does, and he still called it a kekkei genkai in an official source.

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    • Suggesting that Kaguya had the same eye as the Shinju, the god of narutoverse just "because" before eating its fruit is illogical and contradicts what we know that she came there to eat its fruit and was first to use chakra from doing so. She might have had 3 eyes before for all we know, considering the horns, but the third eye definitely became whatever *Gan it is only afterwards. And you agree that chakra exposure may equal a genetic mutation, therefore how are the Tailed Beasts' advanced natures not a kekkei genkai, since they are because of their special chakra? They have flesh and blood, therefore likely genes too.

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    • That still doesn't invalidate my "eating the fruit = mutation that leads to kekkei genkai" argument, which was the main point of my post. The before or after was something I brought up just because it's a technicality. Tailed beast chakra maybe a source of causes mutation, it's not necessarily a mutation. Are we going to call every characteristic tailed beast effect a kekkei genkai now? What is Sand Release made of? Coral Release? Ink Release? Powder Release? Acid/Alkali Release? What are those made of?

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    • Why do you assume the mentioned substances are transformed chakra rather than actual substances? Don't octopuses produce ink and so?

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    • Omnibender wrote: That still doesn't invalidate my "eating the fruit = mutation that leads to kekkei genkai" argument, which was the main point of my post. The before or after was something I brought up just because it's a technicality. Tailed beast chakra maybe a source of causes mutation, it's not necessarily a mutation. Are we going to call every characteristic tailed beast effect a kekkei genkai now? What is Sand Release made of? Coral Release? Ink Release? Powder Release? Acid/Alkali Release? What are those made of?

      Remember what said Kakashi and Yamato said abaut dark and light when Naruto asked similar question. Moreover it can be variation based on element(just like Madara`s and Asuma smoke technics)

      Update:And now Madara took Kakashi sharingan - so delete KKG from Kakashi page and add it Madara`s?

      Update2:And one thing about chakra influence on dna:Naruto(While in mother's womb) get Kurama whiskers and so did KinGinBro(After eating Kurama`s flesh)

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    • Elveonora wrote: Why do you assume the mentioned substances are transformed chakra rather than actual substances? Don't octopuses produce ink and so?

      Why do you assume they're not? I don't recall tanuki producing sand or turtles producing coral.

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: That still doesn't invalidate my "eating the fruit = mutation that leads to kekkei genkai" argument, which was the main point of my post. The before or after was something I brought up just because it's a technicality. Tailed beast chakra maybe a source of causes mutation, it's not necessarily a mutation. Are we going to call every characteristic tailed beast effect a kekkei genkai now? What is Sand Release made of? Coral Release? Ink Release? Powder Release? Acid/Alkali Release? What are those made of?

      Remember what said Kakashi and Yamato said abaut dark and light when Naruto asked similar question. Moreover it can be variation based on element(just like Madara`s and Asuma smoke technics)

      Update:And now Madara took Kakashi sharingan - so delete KKG from Kakashi page and add it Madara`s?

      Update2:And one thing about chakra influence on dna:Naruto(While in mother's womb) get Kurama whiskers and so did KinGinBro(After eating Kurama`s flesh)

      What do Yin and Yang have anything to do with this? Variations are still very clearly mentioned to be part of main things, like Madara and Asuma's techniques were. No on the removing Sharingan from Kakashi. That would be like removing Shukaku from Gaara's infoboxx because he's no longer the jinchuriki. Naruto is probable on the whiskers, but KinGin already had them before being eaten by Kurama.

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    • Rinnegan is a Kekkei Genkei says Kishi and his Databook 3. If Hashirama had 2 sons, and their descendants DNA/Chakra was connected together like Madara did, then they would gain Wood Release just like Madara gained Rinnegan, that doesn't mean Wood Release isn't Kekkei Genkei now does it?

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    • If it isn't genetic then no, it isn't. If both Naruto and Sasuke transferred to Sakura their chakras, she would get the Rinnegan according to what Hagoromo said.

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    • Only in the anime KinGin had the whiskers before being eaten by Kurama, in the manga it isn't clear cause the panel shows only their backs when they were eaten

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    • Kekkei Genkai is associated with DNA.

      All those with implants of Hashirama's cells, for example, have the KG Wood Release because these cells contains his DNA. Naruto only has access to the Son Goku's molded chakra, not his DNA. So Lava Release is Son Goku's KG, but not Naruto's.

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    • People will answer you "Tailed Beasts have no DNA" or similar nonsense.

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    • Elveonora wrote: People will answer you "Tailed Beasts have no DNA" or similar nonsense.

      Yeah, because Tailed Beasts don't have sexual organs, descendants or s**t. It's not like we talk about Shukaku's Sand Release, Kokuo's Steam Release, Saiken's Bubble Release, Chomei's Powder Release, Gyuki's Ink Release just because we saw them or at least their jinchuriki use these, it was simply never stated that these things were actually chakra molded in different substances. Why can't it be the same with Son Goku's Lava Release? A Tailed Beast Skill but not a Kekkei Genkai (and as such not something born by molding two different chakra natures, but instead produced by the beast itself)?

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    • How do you know they lack reproductive organs? :D

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    • Elveonora wrote: How do you know they lack reproductive organs? :D

      Seriously, they cannot have offsprings. The point is, they are constructs of chakra.

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    • Yeah, with saliva, blood and all.

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    • If chakra can form thier bodies, blood, eyes, teeth, fur, why not their DNA too?

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    • Am I the only one who actually thinks the whole "they are chakra" thing is taken more literary than it should? I consider them to be no less physical and real than any character. I don't believe their form is just "transformed" chakra, but completely corporeal, an actual mass. Chakra can't produce more chakra and it can't die, just run out. I wouldn't be surprised if people believed that their blood is just chakra transformed into red fluid or something.

      Imo, if they didn't have real bodies, then the whole creation of all things would be pointless, but that's just what I believe anyway.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Am I the only one who actually thinks the whole "they are chakra" thing is taken more literary than it should?

      Yes, you are, because, and this is the kicker: the manga says they're living constructs of chakra.

      End of story.

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    • And they said they were corrupted priests and natural disasters, too.

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    • The manga says the Biju are made of flesh, though. I'm no pro in that field, but doesn't flesh need blood to live? Or maybe in case of the Biju, it needs chakra because it's actually called chakra flesh? Dunno, but it's a fact that it's flesh, maybe made out of chakra, maybe not, who knows.

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    • They were shown bleeding, so they have blood. "Chakra contsturcts" refers to the fact that they were made from chakra, that doesn't mean they are just chakra tho. Shadow Clones are just chakra temporarily transformed into physical form, but they dispel when harmed. The Tailed Beasts do not dispel, they can even die, hence their flesh is a real flesh.

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    • Yes, the question is, was that flesh made from chakra or is it just called chakra flesh because chakra runs through its veins (maybe instead of blood)?

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    • Just because Hagoromo used 9 chakra pieces as a medium and gave them souls and bodies using YRR doesn't mean that they still are just that, transformed chakra. Religious people believe that a god made "Adam" from dust, so that means we are inanimate because dust was.

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    • Well, it's still called chakra flesh, though.

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    • We don't know what was meant by that. Could have meant as you said that only the flesh was soaked in chakra. Doesn't make sense for an actual flesh that continues to be flesh even after being separated from the Tailed Beast to be just transformed chakra. That would suggest Kin&Gin pooped chakra turds, too ; D

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    • Hmm, I think it's flesh drenched in chakra, like, if you bite it, you'll eat flesh and chakra. Like a sauce or so. But as you said, we don't know. People here tend to think that "We don't know" isn't a viable answer anymore. It is.

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