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Video game jutsu overhaul

  • This can be considered a continuation of Forum:Video game jutsu overhaul.

    I'd still like to see resolution about this topic. To summarize as best I can:

    • The wiki's current practice is to make an article for every uniquely-named button sequence that appears in a video game.
    • One problem is that there are literally thousands of video game jutsu, which would mean creating thousands of different articles.
    • This seems like a bad approach: video game jutsu are extremely marginalized on the wiki, to the point they are almost impossible to find. You can hope that they're listed in the respective video game's article, but that will only be true for the first game they appear in; if you don't know which game that is, you might as well give up.
      • Therefore, why flood the wiki with jutsu that cannot be found?
    • My proposal was to group all video game jutsu by game into a subpage. The same information can be found that is in the individual articles (theoretically) and new, video game-specific information can be provided (theoretically).
    • This allows all of a character's jutsu to be grouped together, all of a single game's jutsu to be grouped together, thus making things easier for readers to find and make sense of.
    • I made a sample of a jutsu subpage here. Yagura is the only one I filled out beyond the initial GameFAQs copy.
    • Video game jutsu could still be "upgraded" to their own articles once they satisfy certain requirements (certain number of appearances, based on a previously-unnamed animanga jutsu, etc.)

    There were other caveats brought up in the previous discussion, but I think I've touched all the main points.

    Thoughts?

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    • The one problem I have with making game specific pages is that it gives rise to a lot of overlap. There are many jutsu that stay the same through games. For example, in the Ultimate Ninja Storm series, there are many characters whose moves have stayed the same through Storm 2, Generations, and Storm 3, and that are likely to stay the same in Revolutions. Some of the earlier Ultimate Ninja games are also included in this situation. Or would it be the case for the page to list only the new jutsu, much like the infobox listing does? As fragmented as a page per combo is, that cuts down that overlap. Something that I also learned recently is that sometimes, jutsu with the same name do different things in different games, and we don't have a defined way to handle those. We both have two different articles (Naruto Uzumaki's Shinobi Handbook (Ultimate Ninja 3) and Naruto Uzumaki's Shinobi Handbook (Ultimate Ninja Storm)), and articles that cover both versions (Soul Hunting).

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    • If you look at the subpage as just a depository of articles-we-didn't-want-to-make, then yes, overlap is a problem. But if you look at it as a straight reporting of a game's movelist, then overlap is necessary, even expected. Like what is done with episode credits: Naruto's VA does not change from episode to episode so there's not really a need to list it each time, but it is because it's supposed to be a faithful reporting of each episode's cast.

      Now, if part or all of a character's movelist is the same in more than one game, it could probably be transcluded from one to the other(s) in order to save time and encourage uniformity (as in, typos don't need to be corrected in five articles).

      If different effects share the same name, the effects should be put together under that shared name but all of the effects should be accounted for. So I would endorse the Soul Hunting example you provided. I used Chibaku Tensei before as another oft-appearing jutsu that differs from game to game, and there are several other animanga jutsu that already make special note of video games' variations. This has the added benefit of accounting for all of a jutsu's appearances, not just the first, because, to quote ShounenSuki, "Débuts are meaningless in non-sequential films and games."

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    • Then what would we do with all the video game j u t s u already have packages?

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    • Why aren't we simply creating sub-articles for each character where we list the game techniques? Like Naruto Uzumaki/Game Techniques or so?

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    • I agree with Seel, why not just make a big list of all their techniques, instead of creating tons of tiny articles ? It would be much easier imo, although I suspect the reason is that you can't use SMW to list those techniques if they're like that.

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    • Would there be multiple infoboxes or would all that info just be added? I say do that and also make a redirect for each one to there respective page.

      EDIT: Merged double post.

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    • SuperSajuuk
      SuperSajuuk removed this reply because:
      Merged with above.
      13:39, February 12, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      I say do that and also make a redirect for each one to there respective page. Munchvtec (talk) 13:35, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

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    • For SMW purposes, would it be possible for a redirect with the technique's name to retain the infobox? The redirect would point to the central page (be it game or character) centric, and the infobox part would still retain semantic info. Another overlap issue that I came across with is jutsu that are used by multiple characters. For example Water Release: Water Shield and Water Release: Drizzle.

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    • Sooo, could a single large game then be made for each game instead of each character or would thay be too large of a page?

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    • Munchvtec wrote: Then what would we do with all the video game j u t s u already have packages?

      They would be copied to the subpage and redirected.

      Seelentau wrote: Why aren't we simply creating sub-articles for each character where we list the game techniques? Like Naruto Uzumaki/Game Techniques or so?

      That's definitely another viable option.

      Speysider wrote: I agree with Seel, why not just make a big list of all their techniques, instead of creating tons of tiny articles ? It would be much easier imo, although I suspect the reason is that you can't use SMW to list those techniques if they're like that.

      Subpages-by-game would not be "tiny" as they would consistently be of a certain length. Contrast that with subpages-by-character, which could either be very, very long as in Naruto's case, or have very little content, as in Mifune's case.

      I also disagree there would be a "ton" of articles; there would be 58, one for each game. Storm 3 alone has 65 playable characters, which is more than 58.

      Omnibender wrote: For SMW purposes, would it be possible for a redirect with the technique's name to retain the infobox? The redirect would point to the central page (be it game or character) centric, and the infobox part would still retain semantic info.

      I elaborated on my understanding of how that would work in the previous discussion. Basically, they would need to be soft redirects. That may or may not be acceptable, depending on your opinion of soft redirects.

      Omnibender wrote: Another overlap issue that I came across with is jutsu that are used by multiple characters. For example Water Release: Water Shield and Water Release: Drizzle.

      I imagine those would be treated the same as other occurrences of overlap. Use by more than one character might even be grounds for upgrade-to-article, which would make its multiple users more apparent.

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    • So will we move with this plan or not?

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    • Seelentau wrote: Why aren't we simply creating sub-articles for each character where we list the game techniques? Like Naruto Uzumaki/Game Techniques or so?

      I'm still in favour of this. :D

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    • Like I said before, I also prefer per character pages instead of per game pages, to cut down overlap between games.

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    • Omnibender wrote: Like I said before, I also prefer per character pages instead of per game pages, to cut down overlap between games.

      I'm fine with trying to curb overlap, but by-character subpages should still list a character's full moveset, even if there's only one new move. Or at least explain that, with the exception of X move, all moves are the same as in Y game.

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    • Snapper2 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote: Like I said before, I also prefer per character pages instead of per game pages, to cut down overlap between games.

      I'm fine with trying to curb overlap, but by-character subpages should still list a character's full moveset, even if there's only one new move. Or at least explain that, with the exception of X move, all moves are the same as in Y game.

      I still don't quite think we need to do a full per-game moveset. That's akin to listing every jutsu used in a chapter or volume article instead of only the new ones. We're not writing a walkthrough. Maybe putting section links would suffice.

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    • @Snapper2, drugs are encouraged as well, that makes them good I suppose. I still haven't recovered from the last arguments I had, not feeling for another one, but it would appear that the majority is okay with this practice, so I wouldn't win anyway, I never do T_T But oh well, I guess I can always just say "screw this" leave and make my own "elveopedia" where videogames don't substitute for canon (unless told otherwise, like Kishi designing for a specific game) and no fanmade terms are made for unnamed techniques, but rather unexplained phenomena likely to be techniques are simply mentioned in ability sections. That, would be the perfect place.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @Snapper2, drugs are encouraged as well, that makes them good I suppose. I still haven't recovered from the last arguments I had, not feeling for another one, but it would appear that the majority is okay with this practice, so I wouldn't win anyway, I never do T_T But oh well, I guess I can always just say "screw this" leave and make my own "elveopedia" where videogames don't substitute for canon (unless told otherwise, like Kishi designing for a specific game) and no fanmade terms are made for unnamed techniques, but rather unexplained phenomena likely to be techniques are simply mentioned in ability sections. That, would be the perfect place.

      I'm not sure what you're referring to, precisely. I only directed you here because a resolution with this may end in a way you can be happy with.

      Omnibender wrote: I still don't quite think we need to do a full per-game moveset. That's akin to listing every jutsu used in a chapter or volume article instead of only the new ones. We're not writing a walkthrough. Maybe putting section links would suffice.

      We list every game a character is playable in, why don't we do the same for jutsu? Plus, there are (or at least were) multiple concurrent video game series, leaving "debut" more limiting than it should be. It's one thing to cut corners when it comes to the same series since they build off each other with less meaningful differences from game to game, but games on different systems of different series by different studios should have their movesets documented in full at least once.


      If we're going to do a by-character approach, I think we should start a sandbox so that we can work out organization, what information is given, etc. Ideally for a character that only appears in a few, but non-consecutive, games. A perhaps?

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    • I made one for Mifune a while ago. I modelled it after ShounenSuki's third databook translation page. It's not useful in the sense of figuring out how to deal with repeated info, but as far as putting the information, it should do it.

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    • There should be a link to the game. And I think it should be in a table or some sort, which would conceivably be produced through a template. Costumes and Awakenings could also be indicated, where available.

      For reasons I've explained before, I still consider "Kenjutsu, Offensive, Short-range" to be completely useless for video game jutsu.

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    • 54.161.236.92
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