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Fact Policy Discussion

  • Hi guys.
    Most of you probably noticed the discussion regarding the Blaze Release and how we handle it. I started it, even though I was aware that it has been discussed over and over again. Since I'm not a random Naruto fan, I allowed myself to bring it up again, anyway. The reason for that is not that I want to force my view of things into the articles, but that I think there's a bigger problem this wiki has: The way of handling and presenting information that isn't confirmed.
    Whenever something remains unclear, there should be one way we handle it: We state that it's not been explained yet and don't make any conclusions based on opinions. That's all there is to it. However, what we really do is randomly deciding how we handle each case.
    We have the Blaze Release case, where we state as a fact that it's an advanced nature, even though that was never, ever stated in the manga and there are more facts that speak against it. But we also have the Ranshinshō case, where we don't say that it's a raitonjutsu, we only have a trivia for it and a (presumed) in Tsunade's infobox. We don't even mention it in Tsunade's ability section.
    As you can see, we don't have a fixed policy or why're we handling each case differently? Seelentau 愛 13:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    This is probably going to end up well.
    The problem,as I see it, insistence of accepting that we don't know something and refuse to try and make sense of it. We cannot except Kishimoto to hand everything on a silver platter. The man can barely keep his own story straight and seems to do a lot of things just to make them interesting.
    Because we take such a broad stance on things we don't know, we unnecessarily pussyfoot around things and then just leave it and settle into a "hope for the best" resolution.
    Using the Body Pathway Derangement, as that was a resolved case from years back, because the technique used electrical pathways many assumed it was a Lightning Release. This topic met, what I believe was a universal end of debate scenerio back in 2008 when Dantman said that because it didn't fit with any other lightning technique, that the use of the electrical pathways was used out of context (and it probably was, as the electrical pathways in the body are to my understanding nothing like actual lightning) and every conversation about it since then have kinda kept to that line of reasoning. Overall, it is both a good and a bad example to use in this discussion, mainly by the way we the editors at the time just kinda dropped it as a subject. It is good to bring it back though.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:57, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    Then why are we handling this new subject so differently? I understand that there's been way too much discussion about it, but they all ended without coming to a conclusion. What we have at the moment simply isn't a fitting way for a wiki to handle things. We need a rule, which should obviously cover every potential issue that may arise in the future. I would define this rule as:
    Every information that has not been provided by the manga or any other official source has to be considered as speculation and as such should not be stated as a fact in an article. If necessary, a trivia explanation can be made.
    Wouldn't that be okay? Seelentau 愛 14:16, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    Because to put it very simply, we handled Body Pathway Derangement very poorly. Back then, because Dantman said "no" we accepted that as law and didn't challenge it and never did. We didn't make a rule or even an exception, we just didn't even try. If he had this same discussion like we are now, things probably would have ended up differently.
    And only it is acceptable only when it is so far out of left field that it requires stretching to reach. Something like Blaze Release (to use the most recent issue) can be explained using every piece of information we have to reach the conclusion that is is a nature transformation. The ones that can't be reached through the information we do have is what makes it, but that doesn't discount what we can conclude. We aren't arguing that Explosion Release isn't an advanced nature, even though we don't know what makes its parts. We know it is because it isn't any of the main five.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:36, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    But what if, as it is in the most recent case, we can't explain everything? The way we explain it is now, it's half-assed. You said it yourself: We don't have proof that it's a nature and we don't have proof that it's not a nature. But instead of saying that we don't know, we pretend that we know that it's a nature.
    What we do is not stating facts (= that it's not been explained), but stating our own opinions as facts. And that is something a wiki must not do. Otherwise, this would be absolutely legitimate: I worked on a theory regarding Inton, Sasuke's Genjutsu-eye and the form manipulation of Enton and it's based on manga facts. It's flawless and since we state opinions as facts, I am allowed to add it to the Enton article (and others).
    But I doubt that you want such situatons to arise. And no, this is not a threat, I obviously won't do that. Seelentau 愛 14:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    ....What theory regarding Yin Release and what about Genjutsu eye?
    And if it actually leads to somewhere actual thought is used instead of "thumb-up-ass-let's-do-nothing" we've been doing so far, I'm all for it. I'm saying when we have legit information that can end to a solution (example: Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them) then we can and should be able to use the giant organ in our heads and come up with the logically conclusion that (example: Because X Release fits every definition that current exists for Z, X = Z. For added fun, this entire line of reasoning, I used Explosion Release as the base. User had Explosion Release, used Explosion Release: Landmine Fist, is not a Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, and Lightning nature, components are unknown.)
    The thing I stress, and stress hard is that I hope we are smart enough to take things and use them logically. If someone has to go through a great many jumps of mental gymnastics to reach a conclusion then that is probably bit to far. But when is able to basic things that has been established, look at the scenario at hand, we should be able to come up with a logical conclusion that we can present. And if, and this is a big if, Kishimoto finally decides to release a databook to explain this stuff then we can change it. But dancing around stuff like we are doing now makes us come across as being willfully stupid.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:12, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    The problem is here: "Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them" - the bolded fact is the part that upsets me to no end. Just because of the word "Release" you assume that it's nature? Again, we have Tonton (no, not the pig, the Transparent Escape), but that isn't a release despite using the same Kanji, is it? Furthermore, you ignore everything that doesn't add up with what we know. Seelentau 愛 15:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    Ah, and now I see the break. (If it hasn't been made obvious by now, if you use the romaji exclusively, at least if you are talking to me, expect there to be a disconnect. As you may have noticed, I kept using Blaze Release instead of Enton. Much much easier for me to follow.) In that case, my point still stands in that if it is an "Element Release" it goes nature. It also brings up the point that why is Transparent Escape Technique has "遁" in it and it doesn't become Release (the only thing that pops in my head is that "透遁" directly becomes "Transparent Escape" but obviously, I don't know Japanese). And I'm not ignoring anything (or at least I shouldn't be, as i tried to take into account everything) that doesn't add up to what we know, I'm simply not ignoring what we do know, have used, and what could be the result.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    So in your opinion we should create another adv. nature called Transparent Release?
    What you ignored is that there is no new nature created with Blaze Release and it was explained how it works by C. It was also never called a Kekkei Genkai by itself, only through the use of Amaterasu. This "adv. nature" is unlike any other adv. nature that we know of and it would be plain wrong to handle it the same as we do it with the others. Seelentau 愛 15:33, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    As we technically never actually seen it in the manga. Hard to say. If it moves the theory of using what we know, yeah i would. (Read: technically it doesn't. Nobody ever mentioned a 透遁, being its own little thing...whatever that would actually become. Because we don't know what it actually does beyond "It lets people spy on you without being seen", I don't know if it uses an element or not)
    And yes, it not manipulating a new element is a pickle. I have always attributed it as Kishimoto pulling it unneceasarily out of his ass to explain why the uncontrollable black flames of Amaterasu (in more or less words used when it first appeared) can be controlled. It never being called a kekkei genkai but attributed to one by using Amaterasu is obvious and would again feed into the thought of "Not being told so lol not going to think about it"; if something requires the use of Amaterasu to even exist, it must require the ability to use Amaterasu to even work. Amaterasu is a kekkei genkai, so the thing that directly controls it must also be a kekkei genkai. That should not be difficult to work out. And using the unlike any other nature we've seen, I will again use Explosion Release. Explosion Release is not an element. An explosion of energy being released, violently. I will then use Dust Release. Dust Release does not actually involve the use of dust, it involves particles which are crushed to the point they they "become dust". So Blaze Release is not the only one that doesn't create a new element. If I am allowed to theorycraft (yes I am theorycrafting), Blaze Release could very well be a form of Fire Release so high that it allows the user to manipulate Amaterasu.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:46, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    In fact, I could argue the only element that actually creates something new is Wood Release, as Water + Earth somehow makes a flower. Everything else so far has simply taken something or changed its shape. Except for Explosion Release, which just got violent and angry.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    We also have "can't put my testicle on line for validity of all content present in the article" template that we barely use :-/ I wish Godai and Suki were still around, they kinda had an unique view on things.... sadly, you have to make do with yours truly instead :P Let me start with a little analysis that could help us solve the case... also a little bit of logic with a spice of speculation doesn't hurt either, so:

    • We know of 5 basic natures and yin/yang/yin-yang that may be basic, advanced or not considered natures at all.
    • Therefore we have Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth and Water as basic (possibly Yin, Yang) and (Yin-Yang ???) Once we were told there are 6 natures, but that got retconned I believe, making things even more confusing... if Yin and Yang were basic natures, that would have made it "7 basic" so I believe it was Yin-Yang that was once by Kishi considered to be "the 6th nature" but it likely got changed into an advanced one or as I said, yin/yang/yin-yang are a completely separate category (so neither), this being the most likely case.
    • We know of: Ice Release, Wood Release, Lava Release, Storm Release, Boil Release, Explosion Release, Scorch Release, Magnet Release.

    Let's keep Dust Release out of this because it's a mix of three and it wasn't even suggested that Blaze Release could be a Kekkei Tota, so it won't help us here.

    • We know that a basic nature may be included in more than just one elemental bloodline limit --
    1. Fire is being used in: Lava Release, Boil Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Blaze Release?
    2. Wind is being used in: Ice Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
    3. Lightning is being used in: Storm Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?, ?Blaze Release?
    4. Earth is being used in: Wood Release, Lava Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
    5. Water is being used in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release
    • Let's count them --
    1. Fire appears in at least 3 (possible at most 4, so either Blaze isn't an advanced nature or Explosion doesn't consist of Fire)
    2. Wind appears in at least 2 (possible at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
    3. Lightning appears in at least 1 (possible at most 4, with only either being part of Blaze or Explosion, may be in Magnet also)
    4. Earth appears in at least 2 (at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
    5. Water appears in 4 (maximum, can't combine with itself, can it?)
    • So what's missing --
    1. Fire+Lightning/Lightning+Fire (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Blaze?) only either
    2. Wind+Lightning/Lightning+Wind, Wind+Earth/Earth+Wind (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)
    3. Lightning+Earth/Earth+Lightning (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)
    • We can from this conclude that Kishi obviously hasn't yet revealed to us all double-type combinations, we know of 8 (9 if Blaze counts) but 2 are still missing (1 if Blaze counts) from possible 10 and it's unlikely that will ever happen, considering the story is almost over. But we can address to the "known unknown" 2 (3 if Blaze included) advanced natures the most probable combinations:
    1. Blaze Release could in theory indeed be Fire+Lightning because Sasuke has both and there sure is 1 space left for Fire and 3 for Lightning.
    2. Explosion Release is very unlikely to be Lightning+Fire, Lightning+Earth or Lightning+Wind for a single reason... Deidara kneads the "explosive chakra" into Earth-natured clay, and Earth is weak against Lightning.

    So I'm glad we have finally come to the conclusion that Explosion Release consist of Earth+Wind, thanks for listening.

    1. Magnet Release is therefore either Lightning+Wind/Wind+Lightning or Lighting+Earth/Earth+Lightning
    • With this setup, we have 4 for Fire (with Blaze included), 3 for Wind (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 2 for Lightning (with Blaze included and 3 with possibly Magnet), 3 for Earth (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 4 for Water.

    So in case you don't suck at math, you should have figured by now that it fits perfectly for Blaze Release to be Fire+Lightning still leaving 1 space left for unrevealed advanced nature. The only way for it not to be is if Kishi has something different for Fire+Lightning in his head other than Blaze, but you would have to ignore the "ton" part and "coincidence" that Sasuke has both.

    I hope you enjoyed reading.--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    Yeah, but that's not making anything better, it's just more speculation :/ Seelentau 愛 17:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    I shouldn't have made it that long. Let's keep it simple, there are 10 possible dual advanced nature combinations and we know of 8. Let's just hypothetically say Blaze Release is one also, therefore 9. A single basic nature can mix with other 4 to make an advanced one.

    • Fire is already in: Lava Release, Blaze Release (let's say), Boil Release, Scorch Release - 4 times, so used up
    • Wind is already in: Ice Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Scorch Release, Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
    • Lightning is already in: Blaze Release (let's say), Storm Release, Magnet Release (let's say) and an unknown advanced nature - 3/4 times
    • Earth is already in: Wood Release, Lava Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
    • Water is already in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release - 4 times, so used up... no speculation here.

    So it's a theorycrafting:

    What is to be learned from this, is that Explosion, Magnet, possibly Blaze and the unrevealed nature may only either be:

    1. fire+lightning
    2. wind+lightning
    3. wind+earth
    4. lightning+earth
    • The likelihood of Blaze Release being an advanced nature is high. Not only has it the affix, but can in theory be a mix of two available elements, both of which Sasuke possess, so coincidence???
    • If you disagree with my Explosion Release, it can either be then: Fire+Lightning (in case Blaze isn't it or the unknown one), Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth (my opinion) or Lightning+Earth.
    • Magnet Release is unlikely to be the 4th one to consist of Fire rather than Blaze, Explosion or the unknown one, so it can either be: Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth, Lightning+Earth.

    This is all I meant to say. And now let me ask you... if Amaterasu is Fire Release and is cast directly from the eyes, who is to say any other element can't?--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    Anyway, my point was to convince you that Blaze Release being an advanced nature is very likely and even is too good to be coincidental. The issue is if we should or shouldn't help ourselves with things such as logic and likelihood in cases when "we don't know" .. As a wiki, we shouldn't have unverified information in the articles, true, but completely ignoring human factor seems strange too imo, we aren't bots. The majority of fanbase and even videogames (unless I'm mistaken) take it for granted that Blaze Release is an advanced nature, so suddenly changing it? Too late I say.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    Uh, well, the Blaze Release issue is actually just an example for the whole problem. So I guess you went a little bit far with your whole explanation, because I totally understand why you guys want to label it as an advanced nature. And you know what? I even agree with you. But! I don't agree with it on a level of facts. And the facts are:
    • Sasuke casts it with his eyes, not through his hands. According to Yamato, you have to mix two basic natures to form an advanced nature. Sasuke isn't even forming hand seals.
    • Sasuke uses form manipulation on a basic nature, he isn't adding a second nature. Advanced natures have always been two natures, but here's only one used (unless proven otherwise, of course).
    • Sasuke does not create a new, advanced nature, which always happens (on different levels, though). He still uses Amaterasu, which is Katon, there is no new nature like lava or wood.

    So I want these three points to be cleared before I agree with you guys on a level of facts. Because going by facts we only have the suffix. It's three against one right now. Oh and by the way, if we should come to agree that Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature, then Explosion and Magnetic aren't advanced natures, either. Because not one of them was called that. Seelentau 愛 20:04, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

    It makes sense and I agree with you. But I will not agree that it's a basic nature or maybe it's not a nature at all maybe it's just like bones or websMunchvtec munchvtec

    As you may have noticed, I like to post long texts :P Response time:

    • So Amaterasu isn't Fire Release either cause those need hand seals and are being puked out, if he can do a nature with an eye, figure he can do an advanced one using both eyes
    • Dunno, wouldn't you imagine fire+lightning as shapeshifting fire?
    • Looks the same for sure, doesn't mean it is tho
    • If I were you, I wouldn't even come close to Explosion and Magnetic releases. Not everything is spoon-fed to us, there has to be a balance between logical conclusions and facts, going purely by known facts is the right thing to do, but would be very limiting. Had we gone by "facts" all along, there wouldn't have been articles such as Body Flame Jutsu and Attack Prevention Technique among others. In short, sometimes it's necessary to create context for content--Elveonora (talk) 22:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
    • Amaterasu isn't an advanced nature, so you can't apply Yamato's explanation.
    • No. Lightning isn't known for shaping stuff.
    • Doesn't mean it isn't either.
    • Those articles bug me, too. The Body Flame Jutsu is a kind of Shunshin, the Attack Prevention Jutsu is pure speculation, Orochimaru only hides in a tree (however he does that, without Mokuton). I know that we have to give statements on everything, but calling Blaze Release an advanced nature is too much. Seelentau 愛 09:02, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


    Okay, I feel like this whole topic is still too concentrated on Blaze Release. Allow me to explain how this wiki deals with information right now and how it should be dealing with it:
    New information, for example a new technique, is shown in the manga. However, it is not named and there's no further information about it aside from how it looks. What we usually do is comparing the technique with similar ones. If there's a similar technique, we note that the new technique is a derivation or so. If there's no similar technique, we go and create an article for the new technique. So far, so good. The problem is, how do we decide if the new technique is either an old one or a new one? Is it up to the editor who creates the article? Do the admins decide? Are there any requirements that need to be fulfilled for a technique to be a new or an old one? I work in this wiki for more than three years and as far as I remember, it was always kind of a random decision. But we can't do stuff randomly here, we need a set of rules we can apply to any new information. Seelentau 愛 11:51, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    And what sort of criteria do you propose?NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 11:53, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    If an information was stated (in the manga/anime/etc) to be X, then everything is okay and we can write it down as a fact. If it was not stated to be X (and there's a possibility it's Y or even Z), we don't write it down as a fact, even if we believe that it's X. So, to work with the aforementioned example technique: If the technique is stated to be X, we write that down. If it's not stated to be X and could as well be Y or Z, we write down that it's unknown if it's X, Y or Z. We don't have everything served by Kishimoto and we have to use our own minds at some point, that's right. But it's no reason to assume things based on our own opinions. Seelentau 愛 12:02, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Well, Blaze Release is one of the topics concerning you and currently it's 2 sysops for advanced nature I believe. The only middle way to come out from it is to remove the advanced part and make it Fire Release. But that's gonna confuse fans all around the world, because all of us "know" that there's such a thing as Blaze Release, get it? Don't know how this phenomenon is called, but sometimes when you are aware that you might be mistaken, but the majority has come to know the same misinformation as a fact, it's better just to play along I guess. Also it sounds ridiculous: "Fire Release: Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. OH WAIT, if Blaze Release weren't a different nature, the technique would have been called just "Kagutsuchi" if this ain't enough evidence then dunno. It basically has a nature prefix and it ain't Katon--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I don't know what famous person said this, but only because a billion people think something is correct doesn't mean that it's actually correct. And it should be our job to lead those people on the right path and not leave them in their false reality. Seelentau 愛 12:19, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    By the way, a good example of how to handle things is how we didn't make Nagato and Karin Uzumakis or Tsunade a Senju in their article names. Seelentau 愛 12:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I believe it's called society, welcome to the real world, place where you know only what others want you to think is true.

    Anyway, how can you ignore the prefix? Answer me this:

    • Amaterasu = Katon, the prefix is dropped because the technique's named literary after a deity of sun, but databook confirms it's a Katon.
    • Logic has it Blaze Release is still no less than Katon
    • That begs the question that if it isn't a new nature, why does Sasuke call it one?

    Fire Release: Kagutsuchi or just Kagutsuchi would be correct in scenario you are right, except it's being called "nature not part of the basic five-release: name of the technique" how is that not PROOF? Ninja don't go around calling out "Mud Release" and "Mist/Fog Release" and so on. So unless Sasuke just decided to call incorrectly Katon Enton, it's a new nature and it isn't a part of the five therefore advanced, topic concluded. What next?--Elveonora (talk) 12:25, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Elveonora didn't put it in a particularly...conversational way, but that is the basis of my reasoning as well. Sasuke called it a Nature, in the same format all the other Natures have been shown. No other shinobi pulled out a new technique written and formatted in the exact same way as every other Nature.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:31, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    It's not that we dont make them Uzumaki or Senju(it's given in their "Clan" classification), it's just dont make that their surnames. Well, because it could be anything other than the clan name. But on this fact policy, I agree with Elveo and the others. We arent bots so it's farfetched to think that everything will classified perfectly. Yes, the Attack Prevention Technique. Perfect example that Elveo gave. There are certain times that we have to fill content with context (perfect line btw.) Now, it's our collective job to determine how we go about delivering our information, but it's not something that we can just disregard in favor for complete factual evidence, because again like Elveo said, its very limiting. With that said, I am however in favor for a criteria; something we can all go off and base our decisions on.

    Now about the blaze release issue. Maybe after we come to a consensus on what how we classify information (the criteria) that isnt explained upon, then we can decide what to do with it.NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 12:35, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Sasuke called it a release the same way Jiraiya called his transparent escape technique a release. So we already have one exception of the "release = nature" rule. The possibility exists that Blaze Release is another exception, we can't say for sure. And as long as we can't say for sure, we have no right to act like we can say for sure. This isn't a mindset suited for a wiki and I'm the wind that wants to change this mindset. Seelentau 愛 12:39, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Except the name of Jiraiya's technique doesn't serve as a prefix and have a colon, but Sasuke's has a prefix not unlike a nature's "somethingTON : insert name" so it's hardly a valid comparison at this point--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    But only because there have been no Totonjutsu shown as of now. Seelentau 愛 12:50, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    Ah but that is the thing. If it DID have a Tonton: X Jutsu, it would be relavent to the issue we have now. It does not, so like Elveonora said, the only thing similar is the name, not the way it was used.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:56, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    Okay, if we count that out, we still only have one pro-adv. nature argument, which is the suffix, while the main contra argument is that blaze release works unlike any other advanced nature. Seelentau 愛 13:01, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Jiraiya's was spoken about as a single technique, not a brand of. While Sasuke has more "Blaze Release: Things" Again, there's no reason for Sasuke to use the prefix "Blaze Release:" without it referring to a nature, since Kagutsuchi or Fire Release: Kagutsuchi would just do. Prefixes aren't just being thrown around for teh lulz... they serve to highlight that a technique is part of a school, we have:

    • summoning: something
    • Xrelease: something
    • outer path: something also as an example

    NEVER something such as "Kick to the balls : painful much technique" "concentration technique: running on water" or shi* unless you know about any.

    "Works unlikey any other advanced nature" I think at this point with all due respect you are a Kabuto locked in Izanami. Dust Release doesn't even burn, blow/cut, adjusts weight/create earthy substance or decomposes, yet it's a mix of Fire, Wind and Earth.--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I know I'm not overly active here but I just read through this and saw a point Seel made that seemed to be skipped over in everything else. Of all the nature types we know of, advanced or otherwise, this is the only one that only exits to control a pre-existing type. It has only been used to manipulate the flames of Amaterasu, which I believe has been officially stated to be fire release. So, while other advance natures have, in some way been an independent force, Blaze Release is not. I only reiterate it because I think such a dramatic difference in use is important when discussing its status. Again, sorry if I'm out of line for stepping in like this.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    That's what I meant with "it works unlike any other advanced nature", not what you said, elve-kun. Seelentau 愛

    Very nice point. You should be editing more often and are welcome to do so. But: Ice Release can be used not only by directly creating the advanced nature chakra from the user's body with hand seals, but being created by using a pre-existing water source as well. Wood Release isn't necessary to be used directly from the user's body part with hand seals, but can be from pre-existing earth around as well. Although only in filler, a Fire Release manipulating an already existing fire was shown. Point being a basic and advanced nature can be used to manipulate another--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Still not what I meant. Close, though. Seelentau 愛 13:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    Now I'm confused.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature created by combining two basic natures, but something that is created by applying Keitaihenka to a basic nature. It's still Amaterasu, a Fire Release, but with a specific form. If an advanced nature is created, two natures a mixed. This is not the case here. And yes, I know that Sasuke has two natures and it could be very well a Katon/Raiton advanced nature, but it wasn't even once hinted that Raiton is part of Blaze Release. Seelentau 愛 13:26, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    The wikia does not, not have a fact policy. We work off precedence. We establish a trend based off what has previously been see — if applicable — and go from there. That has always been how we try to do it. Ergo Blaze Release is a nature transformation simply because it says Release. The rest is honestly up to Kishimoto to explain on that one — at least give him the opportunity to explain his own story. We do try constantly to keep the information 100% factual, but you will always find that there are individual cases that cannot work under the "blanketed" approach and you will always find people ready to jump the gun - thankfully we have more levelheaded people here than fanboys and girls. In short: I am not against a fact policy, but I don't think the system we have in place is entirely flawed.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:29, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    But isn't the precedence thing part of the problem? I can certainly see it creating a change of falsehoods and misleading statements based on people continually turning to what was done before. And Elveonora, you bring up a good point with Ice Release, but I will counter by saying that the only form we've seen the second style of it is in the anime, while in the manga the kekkei genkei form worked much like the other Advanced Nature types we've seen. Furthermore, it was still called Ice Style in the movie, rather than receiving a new name to control a pre-existing element. While I agree with Cerez on the point that Kishimoto is ultimately the one who has to explain it, I think Seel is right in that we should be more cautious with how we word ambiguous subjects.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Too strict laws and restrictions are only a temptation for them to be violated more often than when there are less, it's human nature.

    @Seel, but you can't say with certainty that two natures don't get mixed in Blaze. This is the very basic trait of Raiton chakra: "high frequency vibrations" correct me if I'm wrong, but friction creates heat. I'm not sure if I should apply real-life physics and chemistry into this, but Fire ain't even an element but a reaction of mixed combustive gases. Gases turn into plasma with enough heat, therefore Blaze? :D--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I'm not saying it with certainty. That's the point I'm trying to make. This wiki says things with certainty, even though they were never stated that certainly in the manga. It could be Fire + Lightning, but it also could not be. As long as both is possible, we can't go and say it is. Seelentau 愛 13:54, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    But I don't think we ever mentioned "what" makes the nature. It has always been "This is an advance nature because blah blah blah we've been over this part". We never made the assumption of "it is made of x and y" because lawl we haven't a clue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:56, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Yeah, there won't be any lightning mentioned, but we know it's fire and everything point to it being an advanced nature, therefore the way the article is now is alright.--Elveonora (talk) 13:58, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    "Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature created by combining two basic natures, but something that is created by applying Keitaihenka to a basic nature. It's still Amaterasu, a Fire Release, but with a specific form. If an advanced nature is created, two natures a mixed. This is not the case here. And yes, I know that Sasuke has two natures and it could be very well a Katon/Raiton advanced nature, but it wasn't even once hinted that Raiton is part of Blaze Release." still stands. Seelentau 愛 14:00, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I see your reasoning, but shape transformation really isn't a need for a nature to have its name changed, since 99% of elemental techniques use it. What you imply is that Sasuke right Mangekyou's power is shape transformation while his left's nature transformation? Still, don't see Sasuke's/Kishi's reasoning for calling it Blaze, meaning shape transformation isn't what makes it Blaze--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    I don't imply that. It was stated in the manga that Blaze Release works this way. Meaning, shape transformation is what makes it Blaze Release. Seelentau 愛 14:44, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    Well, I have said what I had to say, the rest is up to other editors.--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

    bump--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
    While waiting for other opinions, let's make a list of examples how differently we handle some information here:
    • Blaze Release – advanced nature or not? We label it advanced nature even though it's unlike any other
    • Karin, Nagato & Tsunade, Nawaki – Uzumaki/Senju last names or not? We don't call them Karin Uzumaki etc. even though they're from those clans
    • Rinbo: Hengoku – deva path or not? We don't label it deva path because that was never stated
    • Tsunade's technique – lightning nature or not? We don't label it lightning nature but in Tsunade's infobox we do
    • Tobirama's Kinjutsu – Reika no Jutsu or not? It could be that he meant that technique, but it's not sure, but a trivia entry isn't made, either
    You see? Sometimes, we handle it the way it should be (rinbo, last names), other times we don't (blaze, Tsunade's technique) and even other times we've no consensus at all (kinjutsu). I wouldn't be so eager to create a fact policy if these case wouldn't exist. But they do. Seelentau 愛 08:51, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
    This would also be an example that has been brought up a few times over the years.--BeyondRed (talk) 10:45, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
    • Blaze Release - Is pretty well documented here.
    • ShounenSuki explained this to us a while ago. One can be from a clan and not use the surname. Originally Kimimaro was listed as "Kimimaro Kaguya", but it was never shown to be his used name. As such, Tsunade, Karin, Nagato, ect have never used Uzumaki or Senju and thus, are more examples of people not having surnames.
    • Rinbo: Hengoku - Leads back into this discussion, as the attack is shown as an invisible sucker punch that pushes the targeted back using the Rinnegan. Anything that pushes or pulls (read: Gravity) is shown to be a Deva Path ability. The only reason why we aren't calling it one is because Madara didn't stand there and say "I'm going to use some Deva Path power now."
    • The Original OddBall - The big difference here, which probably does need to be addressed is how electrical currents from the muscles to the brain differ from lightning in the sky. Because lightning release deals with the latter.
    Tobirama's Kinjutsu - Honestly that man can do whatever he wants. If he says he can throw his soul because lawl he can, then damnnit the man probably can. Thankfully we have an article for that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:33, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

    I think we should put the Blaze Release topic to rest for now, it seems there's a great difference of opinion about for-against evidence in that case. I see more harm in changing it than leaving it be. For Rinbo: Hengoku I think we should settle on Deva Path, because we know it's a Rinnegan technique and that:

    • deva deals with gravity/forces of attraction and repulsion
    • asura is cyborg and creepy stuff
    • human deals with soul and mind
    • animal with animals ._.
    • preta absorption and barriers
    • naraka is an engineer
    • outer the default Rinnegan power, deals with life&death stuff and things related to tailed beasts such as creepy chains/dragons and shit

    It fits into only one category, so should be obvious. Also nice Pokemon reference there ;)

    Not true, lightning release chakra isn't even an actual electricity, but vibrating chakra.--Elveonora (talk) 13:24, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

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    • I'm actually surprised that worked.

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    • may I ask how you did that wow!!! I'd like to know incase something like this comes up again. I'm trying not to be such a pain on this wikia now.

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    • I'm pretty sure that he just viewed the source of the original discussion and copy/pasted it into the new thread field :P

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    • oh okay.

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    • Feel free to actually contribute either to the topics at hand or how should things be handled in general and if you are for or against more strict policy.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: I'm actually surprised that worked.

      Old forums still remain editable to sysops

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    •  Neutral — I'm still not sure as to the specifics of the policy that is being put forward here, could someone summarise it ? Thanks.

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    • Speysider wrote:  Neutral — I'm still not sure as to the specifics of the policy that is being put forward here, could someone summarise it ? Thanks.

      To explain in a bunch of words.

      This wiki has had an real issue with how we display information that is not specifically given to us in the manga. One of the oldest examples is Body Pathway Derangement, which states to disrupt the electrical current in the body so people came to believe it to be Lightning Release. This situation was never really solved, just shoved out the way and ignored.

      Fast forward many years later and Seelentau brought up an issue with Blaze Release where we are calling it an Advance Nature despite not knowing could possibly make it (beyond Fire because...seriously) and it not being like any other Advance Nature. What this lead to was a spiraling discussion of pissed off rhetoric (not really) that all boiled down to how we handle information that we haven't been specifically told and should we either;

      • Not say anything at all and make no assumptions. (I.E. We can't say it is advance nature because nobody specifically said it was a advance nature.
      • Make use of past information to form a conclusion (Blaze Release is called a "Release", follows a predsigned format blah-blah-blah)
      • Something about Chicokrita and why it is the best Pokemon ever.

      And that was the discussion in a nutshell.

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    • @TU3: Thanks!

      After reading through what you said, I  Support — the second bullet point, because if something ends with "Release", then it's clearly a nature technique. Personally I think it depends on the situation and each should be treated as a case-by-case basis (using these forums would help for doing the longer and more active discussions for things like this :P)

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    • Cool, we are getting somewhere. I'm more worried about existence of articles for things we know nothing about in general, like Body Flame Technique and Attack Prevention Technique I believe they should be deleted altogether with us just mentioning in the characters' abilities section that they did x somehow with us not knowing what x was.

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    • I see nothing wrong with those techniques, or things like the. They happened, they should get an article. They even don't fall under our "Unknown assumption" bit because we aren't assuming anything. We see what they are doing, and report it accordingly.

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    • Except in case of body flame it could easily have been a genjutsu yet we assume it was a ninjutsu similar to body flicker. And the tree merger no jutsu whatever we have no idea about what happened there either.

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    • I'm a little hesitant to make sweeping statements, either in support or against the use of such a policy. I do think we should present the known and confirmed facts first and foremost, but there is a place for deductions. However, I do also believe we should own up to where things are unknown, and where we make our own conclusions. For example, while we have a case such as Blaze Release where so much is unknown and some things are inferred, I think we should make clear what aspects are inferred.

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    • I agree with Elveonor that Rinbo: Hengoku should be settled as a Deva Path jutsu. I mean is true it hasn't been stated to be one but you can't ignore the fact that it still repels and is a rinnegan jutsu. That is enough details to indicate its a Deva Path Jutsu.

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    • Problem with that is, we have no idea what the hell Rinbo: Hengoku is. It pushed the Bijuu back, yes, but why? Gravity? Was it a specific attack that targets only the Bijuu (as they were the only ones affected), or is it Shinra Tensei 2.0? We don't know that. That's why its not listed Deva Path.

      Now, I don't have the time nor the energy to read this entire discussion, but I think I got the gist of it. My weigh in is this. Going off of precedent has very rarely turned out badly for us. In the case of Blaze Release, it is established as a release because anything that has X "Release", and has a certain amount of techniques has been labeled a Nature Release. Sasuke refers to it as a nature, Tobirama makes specific note of it, its got the backing to be a nature.

      Honestly, I'm with Ultimate. Kishi isn't going to hand us everything on a plate. As readers, its kind of our job to connect the dots and fill in the gaps as long as a logical connection can be made. For example, Blaze Release = Nature Release, because every nature is followed by "Release" (-ton). All of them. That should be just common sense. Another example is the insane debate we had over the Black Rods being connected to the Outer Path (something that we know now to be fact), but we were arguing about for months because most of us logically drew the connection with very well established clues, and others were just bound and determined to stand in the way of it.

      If you can use the giant organ upstairs to draw a rational conclusion with the given information, and others can come to the same conclusion, then it should be added.

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    • I completely agree with you but btw there's leaf release and cloud release which are not real releases not to mention grass release.

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    • No there aren't. That is Leaf Style and Cloud Style, indicating a type of sword combat (both techniques you refer to are sword techniques) unique to that particular village. Again, named similarly, using similar weapons. Logical conclusions.

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    • Oh yeah sorry I thought they were also translated as release but anyhow, I think blaze release is a style and honestly it has to be an advanced one because there are only five basic ones right.

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    • After all this discussion, I think the whole topic can be narrowed down to one simple question:

      If something is not explained in the manga, is it the job of an encyclopedia to explain it by drawing logical conclusions based on given information? I say no, it isn't. An encyclopedia's job is to write down the information as it is given by the mangaka, not to draw connections between that information.

      Otherwise, who would tell us when to stop? At what point is a statement nothing more than a user's theory? If we go down that road, we would allow anyone to add his theory to an article as long as it's created by drawing said connections.

      Long story short: Anything that can only be assumed (however logical it may be) should not be added to the article. Depending on the subject, a trivia is okay, though.

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    • Seelentau wrote: After all this discussion, I think the whole topic can be narrowed down to one simple question:

      If something is not explained in the manga, is it the job of an encyclopedia to explain it by drawing logical conclusions based on given information?

      I too say No

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    • If I may so bold as to propose a compromise, why not incorporate a notes system? For those that don't know, by giving a reference tag a note class, you can create a separate type of reference that would appear in a different list. In the main text this appears as a reference would, but instead of just a number, it would say [note 1]. By placing them at the end of a statement based on our own conclusions, we can then direct readers to the corresponding note that has an explanation. Basically, everything in the main body of the page would remain written as is, but with the note tag at the end. Somewhere at the end of the page (either just above or just below the references section) would be the notes themselves. So, if we have a line where we say "X is an advanced nature technique [note 1]" the reader can look at the note and see the explanation of "Although never stated to be an advanced nature, it can be inferred that X falls into this category due to blah blah blah".

      That way we keep using our have our discussions and use our brains to draw logical connections where they are not outright stated, but also tell readers where this has been done.

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    • Back in the day when I stumbled across this wiki, I remember it having been there, separate sections in articles for unconfirmed but likely stuff, theories etc. It was made clear they weren't a fact, such things eventually got removed as time went on.

      I guess a response from Seelentau and UltimateSupreme to your proposition again boils down to "it's our job to document things, not to explain them" so I don't see how would that be much different from the way it is now other than being separate.

      But if we in the end go with "NO" then it will have its consequences as stated by Seel somewhere, we would have to remove 3rd Kazekage as a user of Magnet Release, because "it wasn't stated"

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    • If something is not explained in the manga, is it the job of an encyclopedia to explain it by drawing logical conclusions based on given information?

      I would say yes. We are an encyclopedia. We chronicle the information given to us. If something is not specifically told to us, but the author expects us to know what those mean, then we chronicle that information as well.

      I say Yes.

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    • Just an fyi, there are some voting templates you can use to show support, neutral or oppose: they are:

      Since I seen a few people saying "Yes" :P

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: but the author expects us to know what those mean

      How do we know that's the case?

      And if we go your way, whose logic weighs more? My logic tells me that Blaze Release is a special case and should be dealt with accordingly. Your logic tells you that it's a advanced nature just like the others. And if we go either way, how do we justify going that way? "Yeah we talked about it and since Seelentau knows more/is more awesome/whatever, we decided to write down his logic"?

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    • And that my friend is the real big issue is it. As stated before, not everything will be handed to us on a silver platter. In one moment, A lot of information is given to us that it is logical that the author doesn't have to spoon feed us information and letting us put the pieces together so he doesn't have to waste time doing so himself. In the same moment it is also just as likely he has an entirely new meaning that he just decided we don't need to know yet (if ever.)

      I would prefer we go with the former because that at least has factual basis to ground itself on.

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    • What a lot of people aren't realizing is that Kishi isn't going to tell us everything. He may never comment on Blaze Release ever again for all we know. He's under no obligation to do so. The point of telling a story is not to answer every single question presented by the story. Yes, this series is huge, but its still literature. There are a lot of things about the Harry Potter universe, for example, that Rowling never explicitly wrote into her novels.

      Authors, by nature, expect you to connect dots where they leave obvious evidence otherwise, and precedents are one way that they do this. I don't think you realize how much extra work Kishimoto would have to do to spell out every tiny little bit of insignificant details to you, that you were supposed to get through common sense and logical conclusions.

      The goal of an encyclopedia is to document what we know, but even real-world topic encyclopedias draw conclusions from a logical standpoint. That is to say, its not like Ultimate and I are suggesting that we just start making up stuff as we go. I believe Seel asked "Where do we stop?" That's a very simplistic question to answer. Look at the series. What evidence do we have? Is that evidence strong enough to reach a logical conclusion?

      For example, since it keeps being brought up, Blaze Release:

      All Nature Releases (not just advanced natures, but nature releases in general) start out with the name of the nature - Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, Wood, Metal, etc. - followed by the English word "Release" (the -ton suffix in Japanese). That has been that way since the very beginning arcs of Naruto. It has never deviated. So, logically, and with substantial evidence, we can say Blaze Release is at least a Chakra Nature. Now, according to the series itself, the only basic natures are Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, and Earth - Yin and Yang being the basic foundation of chakra -, and, according to Kakashi, any other chakra natures are Advanced natures, or kekkei genkai.

      Using that evidence, not only can we definitively say that Blaze Release is a chakra nature, but that it is also an advanced nature. For all we know, there is another nature involved. You're only assuming that just Shape Transformation is applied, when that, in and of itself, has never outright been stated by any source. Its just pure observation.

      Now, another point Seel made: Your logic tells you that it's not a nature, so who's logic is right? Well, that again falls to the evidence. Do you have evidence, substantial enough to negate the evidence for it? I very highly doubt you do. Therefore, the evidence in the series supports the original logic. Hence, logical conclusion.

      Wow, that was a mouthful. In laymans terms, I am for logical conclusions, so long as they have the backing of precedence and evidence.

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    • So unless Seel has his final counterargument, I think we can declare the case as dismissed. Soo... anyone any other topic? There's still Sage Mode, someone is still yet to use Skitt's revision for example, then there's merger of Tobirama's manga water technique with what he did in the part I of anime and more I can't tell from my memory. I think the sooner we do stuff, the sooner it will be done? :O rather than never.

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    • The sage mode bit is really due to laziness. The only counter against it was mine and that was making mention of the whole toad/snake thing. Everyone pretty much said Skitts was the way to go, just nobody actually went back and did it.

      No idea about that Tobirama thing. In fact I didnt even know it was a thing.

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    • Topics that should be discussed based on conclusion of this discussion:

      Super mini tailed beast ball and tailed beast rasengan

      Mayfly, wood release,and how Yamato and Madara move through trees

      Ultra light-weight rock technique and (the tsuchikages') flight technique, how they're either the same or related, based on words of Kabuto (therefore flight technique by tsuchikages at least deserves earth release tag)

      There are others I can't think of at present, and while I should go into detail on the ones I stated, I'm tired. I'll come back in the morning. Please discuss in the meantime.

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      • As I said many times before, tailed beast rasengan doesn't exist because it conceptually can't, it's the mini-tailed beast ball.
      • All Wood Release clone get passive Mayfly-like power, while Mayfly is an actual ninjutsu. If Yamato ever moved through trees in manga, it was a clone. For Madara, some people argued that he was a clone, others that he wasn't and either used Mayfly or wasn't merged with the tree at all, just "in it"
      • Which words of Kabuto's?
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    • Tailed Beast Rasengan is a Mini Tailed Beast Ball with rotation added to hold it together since Naruto couldn't use the proper version at the time, they are different but it became pointless before he actually got a chance to use it. Kabuto speculated since the Tsuchikage wasn't hitting as hard as he should while he was flying, just because Kabuto drew that conclusion isn't absolute proof, Onoki could just be physically weak as far as offensive ability is concerned due to age.

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    • So where is this policy going ? Bumping to bring it back to light again.

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    • Yeah i am curious as to what the end result became....

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    • I don't think we have one. :/

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    • Bugger.

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    • Bumping again. Is anything going to come out of this discussion ? -.-

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    • Really, I thought we had a decision or at at least something.

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    • We need this now more than ever. The manga is in a state where we get new information every week, but not enough to see the bigger picture. No one here does that, not even me. But everyone goes and adds stuff to articles which seem logical to him, even though they were never ever stated anywhere (Gaara has Magnet Release? Seriously?).

      So, I propose that until we have enough information to actually say for sure that information X is true, we only add information to articles which were explicitely stated in the manga. Nothing else, not even a little bit speculation, as logical as it may be.

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    • And that sends us spiraling back into my argument where Kishimoto expects us to not be stupid not explicitly tell us everything and instead let us draw our own conclusions based on things he's already shown us.

      Unless of course we are stupid and can no longer think for ourselves and need info spoon fed to us.

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    • We are not stupid, but what's going on in this Wiki is stupid. The manga is in its last few chapters, this situation was to be expected but all we do is adding stuff to articles we believe to be correct, only because we thought for ourselves.

      So basically, yes, we should only add what has been spoon fed to us for now. It doesn't hurt to wait, it never has.

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    • There is a differnece between waiting for something to be clarified later (and even when it isn't, we still used past standards to form the conclusion) it is entirely different to basically say "We aren't going to add anything unless Kishimoto gives it to us on a spoon and wipes the drool from our mouths."

      For example, I am perfectly fine with Madara pulling Storm Release out of his butt. I don't know where he got it, be it Rinnegan-hax, one of the tailed beast, or hell he could even be Darui's long lost Uchiha daddy. The fact was, he pulled Storm Release out of his butt, so he used it. The why is not damned important at this point, especially with the power coupons he has.

      Or more to the point, Naruto who has been in the center of all of this, and his use of Lava and Magnet. I mean, Titans help us we don't care if someone like Roshi is listed as a Lava Release user because of his tailed beast, but Naruto? Eff that nonsense. Our argument that Naruto didn't have the tailed beasts in him, even when they all formed and spoke to him? Wasn't our argument for Minato that he was a pseudo-jinchuriki until we saw that his Nine-Tails could talk to him? So why is Naruto the one singled out for that "That's not how it work..."

      /rant

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    • I'm perfectly fine with adding everything you talked about right now. But it's wrong to add, for example, that Naruto has the Lava and Magnet Release Kekkei Genkai or the respective basic natures. It's also wrong to add that Gaara is a Magnet Release user just because Naruto somehow used Magnet Release through Shukaku's chakra.

      Again, there's a bigger picture none of us is seeing, but some of you guys pretend to see it by adding stuff into articles that was never stated in the manga.

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    • The difference: Roshi could actually use Katon and Doton and merge the two. Naruto: had to ask Son Goku and Shukaku for their chakra, meaning he can't use the natures that make Lava and Magnet up nor merge them.

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    • Also yes, stating that the sand manipulation is magnet release is jumping the gun a little bit, for all we know, they are two different powers Shukaku has.

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    • Gaara using Magnet, No. Unless that Resengan was somehow made of sand that formed out of the the ether, we assume that Shukaku can just move sand.

      The issue with Roshi/Naruto/Lava I call bullshit, because of reasons I have already said plenty of times but at this point it's just talking to a wall.

      But at the end of the day, I think it is just stupid that we have to go through so much stuff just to not be stupid when we could literally just not be so godsdamned stupid.

      EDIT: BUT at this point, I'm just preaching to a choir so I'll take a backseat in this discussion and see how it plays out.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: For example, I am perfectly fine with Madara pulling Storm Release out of his butt. I don't know where he got it, be it Rinnegan-hax, one of the tailed beast, or hell he could even be Darui's long lost Uchiha daddy. The fact was, he pulled Storm Release out of his butt, so he used it. The why is not damned important at this point, especially with the power coupons he has.

      Or more to the point, Naruto who has been in the center of all of this, and his use of Lava and Magnet. I mean, Titans help us we don't care if someone like Roshi is listed as a Lava Release user because of his tailed beast, but Naruto? Eff that nonsense. Our argument that Naruto didn't have the tailed beasts in him, even when they all formed and spoke to him? Wasn't our argument for Minato that he was a pseudo-jinchuriki until we saw that his Nine-Tails could talk to him? So why is Naruto the one singled out for that "That's not how it works..."

      /rant

      Good God Almighty, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

      To me, the manga isn't as volatile as you're making it seem, Seel. And even if it is (or seems that it is), we can still record information that isn't spoon fed to us. Just record what we know. If we can draw logical conclusions, based on context clues, then we should.

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    • What if we're interpreting those clues in the wrong way? Drawing a conclusion that's logical to us doesn't make it logical to the rest of the visitors.

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    • Seelentau wrote: What if we're interpreting those clues in the wrong way? Drawing a conclusion that's logical to us doesn't make it logical to the rest of the visitors.

      Interpretation and logic are contradictory words.

      Logic implies that there is a series of credible clues, which, I might add, all literature have in them as context clues are kinda a big thing if you're going to write anything substantial, thus leading to a reasonable conclusion.

      I'm fine with adding those to articles, because that is what normal, alert, and reasonable readers do.

      Interpretation, on the other hand, is one user's idea of what something might mean. There are usually little to no clues involved and the conclusion that results is sketchy at best. For example, using what Ultimate said, the theory that "somehow" Son Goku and Roshi have the exact same kekkei genkai, but Roshi's isn't at all tied to Son Goku (because that totally makes logical sense), but Naruto preforming the exact same feat is obviously entirely different and therefore Roshi should be listed and Naruto shouldn't.

      Now, anyone with two brain cells and a thought would look at that theory and immediately laugh it off as ludicrous fanfiction.

      However, on the other hand, Kaguya's third eye is never called a Rinnegan. In fact, quite to the contrary, it was called a Sharingan (Yes, "power of the Sharingan" means Sharingan and if you don't agree with that, then I have no words for you). On the other hand, Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi was said to be cast with a Rinnegan, and we know he did so with this third eye. Therefore, logically, the third eye is a Rinnegan. Kaguya had it. She cast Infinite Tsukuyomi. So, logically, we can come to the sound conclusion that she also possesses the Rinnegan.

      See how that works?

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    • Oh goodie this is back in the forefront again.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: Oh goodie this is back in the forefront again.

      Unfortunately.

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    • I understand what you mean, don't worry. What I'm saying is, that at this point, it's not safe for us to draw conclusions, as logical as they may be. We connect different information we get based on similar older information, but what if the new information isn't like the old one? There's always more than one way to connect two information, and as long as we might be wrong with what we're saying, we shouldn't be adding it.

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    • Seelentau wrote: We connect different information we get based on similar older information, but what if the new information isn't like the old one?

      Then we change the articles to reflect the new information we have. This is a wiki, not a book.

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    • Yes, but we handle new information in the same way we handle the old one, even though that might not be correct. As I said, as long as there is the possibility of being wrong, we need to be careful. For example, we shouldn't add Kaguya as a Sharingan user, since it was said that she has the Sharingan's power. Even if I personally believe that Sharingan's power equals Sharingan, I could be wrong so I wouldn't add it.

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    • I also agree that she shouldn't be stated to have Sharingan. Because if the original Shinju Rinnegan is a "Sharingan" and "purple Rinnegan" in one, then technically, Sharingan as a separate doujutsu wasn't a thing until Indra (possibly Hagoromo) meaning "power of Sharingan" still falls within the original Rinnegan.

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    • She has a Sharingan. Its time for you to move off that point.

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    • See? And that's exactly why I dislike discussing things with most of you guys. The Sharingan issue was an example of how we should handle things, not the core of what I wrote. This happens everytime I try to explain something, resulting in a derailed discussion and endless threads and threats.

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    • @Foxie, no, she doesn't.

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    • No threats.

      She has it. Elveonora denies a great many things that are fact. I've learned to just gloss over it and accept what the manga states.

      The "power of the Sharingan" is not a cryptic message that means "Rinnegan". She has a Sharingan. She has a Rinnegan. I don't see why that is hard to grasp, seeing as Madara and Sasuke possess the same powers, but I'm passed the point of caring.

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    •  Support

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    • No, she doesn't. Sharingan is what devolved from Rinnegan, she can't have Sharingan since it became a thing with Indra (possibly Hagoromo). Kaguya has the Shinju's eye which is a Rinnegan. The Shinju hadn't had a Sharingan and taken Hashirama's cells to upgrade it. Get this into your head and all will be ok.

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    • This post is not about Kaguya and her magic third eye it is about the fact policy. Keep in on topic and I will start deleting off topic posts.

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    • Then you better delete 80% of comments in this topic pal. Kaguya and her eye is one of those things related to "fact policy" that is being argued about.

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    • Are you trying me on purpose Elveonora? Do you really want to? I will say it once more, going forward keep this about the fact policy and the fact policy alone.

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    • Whats the problem here?

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    • TU3 is right, this is about how we handle information given to us by the manga. Not specific information, but information in general.

      Our current way of action is kind of based on the majority, but such a democratic way of decisionmaking leaves other possible solutions out. It's not the best way to handle these things.

      The best way in my opinion is the simple "We write down what was said. Nothing. Else. Full stop.". If it's said that Kaguya has the powe of the Sharingan, we write that down. It doesn't matter if we think that it's the same as the Sharingan or not. We simple quote the manga on it, nothing else.

      I know this is a very strict way, but as the manga nears its end, I think it's the wisest way. If there will ever be a fourth databook, we can clarify each and everything and laugh at those who thought different on things or whatever. But until then, let's just quote the manga.

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    • And, pray tell, what happens if and when there isn't a 4th databook? We just going to leave your strict quotations in place when we clearly have evidence otherwise? Or do we turn a blind eye? I don't think that's a good take on it at all, but I'll take a back seat to see what others have to say about that.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      Unfinished answer, mistakenly sent
      09:28, June 8, 2014
      This reply has been removed

      Seelentau wrote:If there will ever be a fourth databook, we can clarify each and everything and laugh at those who thought different on things or whatever. But until then, let's just quote the manga.

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    • Ten Tailed Fox wrote: And, pray tell, what happens if and when there isn't a 4th databook? We just going to leave your strict quotations in place when we clearly have evidence otherwise? Or do we turn a blind eye? I don't think that's a good take on it at all, but I'll take a back seat to see what others have to say about that.

      The possibility for no 4th databook is close to zero, you know that very well. If it's the case, we can think about it then.

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    • Considering writing down only what was said equals an approach without bias, that's a positive thing. On another hand, ignoring something obvious and waiting for us to be spoon-fed ain't good, because we purposely ignore information until further clarified. But connecting the dots has a negative side to it as well, like different individuals interpreting it differently and then arguments like the eye come to be. And that's not what the wiki should be about.... it should be: "what author said" rather than us arguing with each other who is right and wrong.

      (Don't kill me Ulti, it's just an example of the problem) take the eye: If we write down "Kaguya has power of Sharingan" but list only Rinnegan, because that's what the eye is, then Foxie would jump in with: "there's no cryptic message behind it, power of Sharingan = Sharingan" yada yada ignoring the fact that Sharingan devolved from the Rinnegan, so the Shinju, Kaguya and so can't have something that came to be later.

      But if approach number #1 means removal of Sharingan from Kaguya's infobox then I'm all for it :P

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    • 106.120.173.126
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