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Revision as of 02:32, November 3, 2012 by 98.26.246.74 (Talk)

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Separation

I think after the latest chapter we should discuss the separation of the article (to Black Zetsu and White Zetsu) again. Black Zetsu is revealed to be completely different essence than White Zetsu, he is Madara's clone created via Onmyōton while White Zetsu is Hashirama's clone created via Mokuton. They have different personalities and origins, their only common thing is ability to merge into one body.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

If Madara never separated them, why should we? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 15:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, the white was there before the black has been created, thus we should do some kind of separation in their article at least, like Kamui has (Kakashi/Obito)--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Ukon was born before Sakon, yet their articles aren't separated are they? I'm against separating their articles because the two operate as a single being most of the time. The information in the article isn't overbearing or confusing so I don't see the need to separate the information. Also Faust-RSI, all the clones were created using Yin-Yang Release from what I understand: one from the statue the other from the clone, it's just that White Zetsu was created first, there is no difference between the two. I really don't see one good reason to separate the articles, simply because they can split themselves. In that case we should create one for Mū's "clone".--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, meant separate background/personality/abilities/other stuff sections, not 2 articles for them--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Since they work as a single entity most of the time, it might be best to keep the sections on their background and role in the story as a single section. The same goes for their appearance, since splitting them would basically mean describing a lot of the same things twice. Their abilities, however, may be a different story. Other than Mayfly, which all of their kind can use, the two haven't really displayed any shared abilities. Their abilities section could be split into two the way most articles are split into sections for nature transformation, kekkei genkai, etc.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Would this work for a reorganised version of the abilities section?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's how it should be, but also a separate background since their "birth" differ--Elveonora (talk) 23:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

1. Yes, Madara never separated them, though this is irrelevant, all of the most important, final arc, they were separated. 2. Ukon and Sakon never acted as separate entities, yet BZ and WZ did. Also, their significance is incomparable with that of Zetsu. 3. It was never mentioned WZ was created using Yin-Yang Release, moreover, it is strongly implied it has Yang release only, as seen when Zetsus abnormally react to Naruto's chakra. Moreover, WZ is Hashi's clone, while BZ is basically Madara, I don't know why you ignore that. And this is HUGE difference. I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Muu's jutsu.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

In the most recent chapter, Madara told Obito that the beings created through Yin-Yang Release could be used as his pawns, implying that it was used to create the white clones as well. As for completely splitting the article, it could lead to problems on other pages; mentions of Zetsu acting as a single entity on other pages would have to link to one side or the other. Black Zetsu's creation can be explained within a single sentence and he remained merged with White Zetsu for a while after that, so their background section works fine as it is, although the part about Black Zetsu's creation is currently out of order. The abilities section could definitely be separated though, as previously mentioned.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
  • Sakon and Ukon have acted independently, they've split up as well.
  • How much significance a character holds for you is insignificant to the discussion, and not a valid reason. We're supposed to be neutral.
  • The Zetsu clones were all created from Yin-Yang Release. They react poorly to Naruto full-on Yang-natured chakra because of their genetic makeup. They're vegetation, the Yang-natured chakra is simply activating them. What is happening to them is no different than Danzō's arm turning into a tree.
    • I'm not ignoring anything. You seem however to be willing to just look past the fact that they're a single entity, that just happen to be able to split and act independently to split their articles for no good reason.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 10:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
  • They have, for one battle, hundreds chapter ago. Zetsus did this recently in the most important chapters of this manga. Sakon's and Ukon's significance is almost zero, BZ and WZ have connections to all the most important events of this manga. So no, it is not my personal opinion in any way, it is what this manga shows us thus your comment is no relevant and makes no sense.
  • My mistake, they did, though one clearly represents Uchiha and Yin while other Senju and Yang. Though this is not the point. The point is that WZ is Hashirama's clone while BZ is not.
  • They are not single entity in any way, did you miss the part where WZ was existing for-hell-knows-how-long before BZ was even born? Being able to merge don't make them one. There are more characters that are able to merge, but only Sakon and Ukon share the article, even bijuus have their own pages.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:14, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
I'm also for a split in the articles. As far as Zetsu is concerned, Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were created for two completely different purposes using two completely different methods, Black Zetsu has been shown to do things that White Zetsu cannot, they aren't as dependent of each other as we originally thought either. They have different personalities, backgrounds, that kind of thing. Comparing them to Sakon and Ukon is not even applicable. Both White and Black Zetsu have spent a considerable amount of time separate (all the time before Black Zetsu was born, and during most of this Shinobi World War arc). While Sakon and Ukon were shown to separate, we don't know anything about their pasts, or what they're like when they are apart for significant amounts of time. Furthermore, we don't know if they have the exact same abilities, or have different abilities than each other. We do know all these things about the two Zetsu. If, at some point, we learn all of this about Sakon and Ukon, I'd be for splitting them too, but in this case, I think a split is necessary. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 20:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
They've spent more chronological time together, but as far as on-panel, shown time goes, they haven't separated for that much time, and they didn't do much by themselves after splitting. And even considering the things that they did do after splitting, they spend much more time staying put than actually doing stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
Regardless, we have more than enough material to classify them as separate characters. I find it extremely unnecessary to lump them all together when we have so much unique information on their individual selves. They aren't even collectively referred to as "Zetsu" anymore. They haven't been since earlier in Shippuden. They've been referred to as Black Zetsu and White Zetsu for quite some time. I think we have enough to warrant two articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
Edit: Also, should we decide to split them, we could make "Zetsu" a disambiguation to link to all the different Zetsu incarnations, since the term "Zetsu" now applies to Black and White Zetsu, Spiral Zetsu, the White Zetsu Army, and the like. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:19, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

There is no need to split Zetsu. Up until this current arc, there was only Zetsu, with Black and White personality. Them separating into two physical forms. As mentioned before, that would be like separating Sakon and Ukon which would result in two articles with the exact same information for the majority of the page.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

No, Ultimate, there would not. For Sakon and Ukon, that might be the case, but regarding the two Zetsu, there are ample amounts of information amount both to give them completely unique articles. Black and White Zetsu, as a single entity, didn't make too many appearances before this arc. Their plot sections prior to the Five Kage Summit arc is mediocre at best. Its not like they made a ton of appearances as one being. I'm sorry, but, given the unique nature of their creation, the fact that they were created separately, have different personalities, different purposes, and even, in some cases, different abilities, makes it perfectly legitimate. White Zetsu is even dead, at this point. So you're telling me we're gonna keep adding stuff for just Black Zetsu now to this article? Makes no sense. For the last two or three arcs they haven't been merged. At all. There is no legitimate reason to keep them together. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 00:23, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Separation is the most logical thing to do, I don't see why some people disagree.--Elveonora (talk) 01:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

I have created two sandboxes; Black Zetsu and White Zetsu. That should serve to demonstrate how different each article can be. It has different information specific to that Zetsu, illustrates their ability differences, even their plot section focuses solely on their actions when they act alone. The only thing that is exactly the same on both articles is the "Creation and Conception" and the "Trivia". Even the quotes are different. I believe this proves we can make them unique articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:08, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Good work, I'm all for making those sandbox articles into the ground for the separate BZ and WZ articles. The only arguments opponents have all sound like "I'm too lazy to do this, this is too much work, let's better do nothing", sorry, but this is how it looks like Faust-RSI (talk) 11:31, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
I'm gonna wait for one more person to chime in and then we'll go from there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 17:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
I still don't see the benefit from splitting the article. Even the databook didn't bother splitting the profile between WZ and BZ. I don't see the cost/benefit in doing the split. Besides, changing all the links to BZ and WZ isn't something that can simply be done with a bot. The article as is is perfectly capable of informing everything there is to know about Zetsu, B&W. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
The databooks have nothing to do with this. When the last databook came out, Zetsu had not been split up for two arcs. You can bet the next databook will have them separated, as it has now been revealed that they have different origins and different purposes. As the sandboxes I created show, they even have different abilities and Black Zetsu is more of a fighter, while White Zetsu, as Obito mentioned, is not a "front line" fighter. They're different in numerous ways. They even have different personalities. As I said before, if Sakon and Ukon had displayed this many differences and this much independence from one another, as Black and White Zetsu have, I'd be asking for them to split too. If its really just the links you're worried about, there are editors that are more than willing to do that. But really, I and others see it as a necessity. They're too different to keep on the same article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:16, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
There is no benefit in splitting the pages. You say it is nothing like Sakon and Ukon, but fail to say how it is so. For the overwhelming majority of the series there has only been Zetsu. Hell, even splitting they've done nothing that warrants the articles being split. There is nothing that requires this page to be split.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Hell, even your proposal pages feed into my argument. Both the articles are practically the same.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:30, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
I told you how it was different from Sakon and Ukon. Sakon and Ukon appeared for less than half an arc. There is no information on their background, they have the exact same abilities and even similar personalities. Not the case here with these two. Funny, because if you look up, you'll see these explanations two or three times. Secondly, yes there is everything to requite these pages being split. They have different personalities, different origins, different purposes, different abilities, and besides that, the only argument we seem to be getting from you, just like with the Obito and Tobi split, is "its too much work". Also, looking back over my proposals, I see numerous differences, particularly in the background and abilities sections, as well as towards the arcs in which they become more prominent as separate characters. They're two completely different people. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
And their articles will be get this 80% the same (yes I pulled a number out my bum). Look at the current article and the two proposals you wrote up. At most the only noticeable difference is they are separate (obviously) and alot of uses of "both Zetsu". There is no logical reason to split a page if the information is just go in to be repeated in another with 1 or 2 words changed in a attempt to make it different. There is nothing wrong with the current set up, and splitting them will cause more problems than solve because there was nothing to solve.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
  • logic full of win, White&Black Zetsu have a single common article, while "Spiral Zetsu" has his own. We either include all "Zetsus" in one or keep each separated if different enough--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Completely agreed. Sorry, Ultimate, but your logic makes zero sense. There is ample material to make two separate articles and there should be two separate articles. They are two unique characters and, especially now, with White Zetsu dead and their inability to rejoin, its important that we emphasize the differences in their characters. My sandboxes were just examples of how it could be done. Once we actually get to doing it, the final result will be much different than those sandboxes. Unless you can give us all a reason other than "too much work" or Sakon and Ukon, which aren't even comparable cases, then you really have no basis for stopping the split of the article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 19:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Spiral Zetsu for most of the series didn't exist, and other than a common origin, shares nothing with the B&W Zetsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:21, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Omni is correct on Spiral Zetsu. Save common origin, nothing is similar and his page ends where it does. No matter how you say it, the information will be the same, if only different because it was worded differently to make it different. You can ignore it all you want, but to split a page into two when most of the information will be similar is pointless.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 19:29, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

TheUltimate3, you are completely unfair to the sandbox articles. They are only examples, and they were created by one man, he did it all alone. You can't demand perfection from them, the good content will be created by the community. Developing those pages will obviously drop your "80%" down. But they will never be 100% different, though only few articles here have 100% unique content, you can't avoid interdependencies among different characters.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:03, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really think they require seperate articles as most of the information is just going to be repeated.— UltimateSupreme ƒ(♫) 09:12 UTC, Monday, 29 October 2012

I can't believe we're still on this though. Browsing through the sandboxes I see no difference between the two articles. The people for the split are basing it on the simple premises that "they were created separately/differently" which I think is utter rubbish. If he was created with his own body and not poured into White Zetsu, you guys would have a more substantial argument from my perspective. Have White and Black Zetsu even done enough apart to be considered separate entities? ...no they have not: we'd have one paragraph saying they did x and then everything will be the same- that is not ample amount of information to split an article. The hassle of having to do that and then simply transcribing the information to another article is ludicrous.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 12:25, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Madara Uchiha

Shouldn't Madara Uchiha be put as Creator in the Family? Or the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path? Since we are including others in Zetsu's family branch50.9.79.129 (talk) 19:10, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

"father" ? :O--Elveonora (talk) 00:35, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Though something besides 'father'... lol Skarrj (talk) 09:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Clones don't usually get relations to people, the living clone is still its genetic source at least physically. What would be put there anyway, "will giver"? It's not really necessary to draw a line to Madara in this case.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 10:36, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Abilities

As with the newest manga, Dream World 606, Black Zetsu is a portion of Madara's will. In the abilities section it says black zetsu has the ability to record things such as battles and 'show' these recordings to Tobi. In manga 604 White zetsu says he can telepathically communicate with his clones. I'm not sure if this is evidence enough but it's apparent to me at least that black zetsu is watching the battles, gives the memory to White zetsu (because they are able to share a body) and White Zetsu transmits the memory to the part of Tobi's body that was made from Hashirama's cells. —This unsigned comment was made by Jiraiya1 (talkcontribs) .

Or maybe Obito uses the Sharingan to view the memories. It's all speculation either way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes.

The quote section seems a little.. Uneven? Considering White Zetsu is the one with a mouth, there isn't much quotes coming from him. Just an observation. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:21, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

He doesn't usually say anything quote-worthy. You're also assuming that Black Zetsu doesn't have a mouth...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 10:34, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Semi-offtopic, but just to clarify... BlackZetsu has a mouth/tongue/teeth, it could be seen on a chapter cover I think--Elveonora (talk) 23:20, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

He does not. Which is possibly why they have to fuse to feed. Even the need (i'm assuming it's a need and not because it amuses them) to feed seems to stem from Black Zetsu based on what White and Spiral Zetsu have said. Just another reason their articles shouldn't be separated, though that's just my speculation. On a side note though, I love that chapter cover.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 11:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think he was talking about a mouth in a literal manner, though I could be wrong. In general, White Zetsu is the more mouthy individual than Black Zetsu. That's what he meant. Also, Cerez, doesn't the fact that Black Zetsu needs to feed while White Zetsu does not only further to illustrate their differences? Hmmmm. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 15:36, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
My point was leaning towards the possibility that one cannot survive without the other. Still speculation on my part.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:57, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
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