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== Separation ==
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{{see also|Talk:White Zetsu|Talk:Black Zetsu}}
   
I think after the latest chapter we should discuss the separation of the article (to Black Zetsu and White Zetsu) again. Black Zetsu is revealed to be completely different essence than White Zetsu, he is Madara's clone created via Onmyōton while White Zetsu is Hashirama's clone created via Mokuton. They have different personalities and origins, their only common thing is ability to merge into one body.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 15:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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==Dojutsu in Zetsu==
:If Madara never separated them, why should we? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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I was doing some re-reading on the past chapters and i noticed that in chapter 665(page 2), Zetsu was detaching himself from Obito and while coming off, still had the Rinnegan with him. This caused me to think that Zetsu was in possession of the Rinnegan and that he currently is in possession of the sharingan, despite still being attached to Obito. The thing that most supports my belief is that Obito is dead, all while BZetsu remains able to use Kamui.'''EDIT:''' In the most recent chapter 676, this would also mean that Obito left sharingan was actually implanted into Zetsu instead, of Obito's dead body.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 07:28, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:This is a bit weird. Technically, Zetsu is being "worn" by Obito, who appears to be dead (let's see how long that lasts). Obito isn't conscious, he's been controlled. I'm not sure that Zetsu trying to leave Obito before counts as him having the Rinnegan, as Obito was still in control, even forcing Zetsu to remain attached. With the Sharingan though, things seem murkier. It appears that Zetsu used Obito to Kamui out of the dimension. The closest situation regarding possession and use of kekkei genkai by another I can compare this to is Sasori with the Third Kazekage puppet. Zetsu definitely used Kamui, but he doesn't possess the Rinnegan. In my opinion, BZ's possession is a true body snatching, like say, Orochimaru's. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:14, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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::I don't follow your logic Omni about how BZ isn't a Kamui user tho. He isn't a Mokuton user then either, because to do that, he has to be "worn" by a WZ or his clones--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:25, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Right. Zetsu could only use mokuton due to being attached to WZ. But about the Rinnegan, it's nearly impossible to say that he did have the rinnegan as it was connected to his gooey head as he was detaching himself from Obito. As for Kamui, he should be listed as a user of both sharingan and the technique. 1) b/c of mokuton example and 2) I would think because that eye was actually open and in use, while the other wasnt.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Did you read my comment right? I'm comparing the situation to Sasori and his use of Magnet Release through a medium that has it. I agree that Zetsu used Kamui, but I'm against listing him as a Sharingan user. He was using Obito to cast it, much like Sasori used the Kazekage puppet to use Iron Sand techniques. If BZ and WZ were to have split articles, I'd be against listing BZ as a Mokuton user, since he's only done so while attached to WZ mass. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:56, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Oh, excuse me but im leaving out some important detail in my argument. What i really want to emphasize on is the fact that Zetsu had the rinnegan attached to him as he was leaving Obito's body. It's that the eye was coming off with Zetsu as he was leaving. And, in that one picture, the eye was literally detached from Obito. Its this single piece of evidence that I say that he's a bit more of a user of the Rinnegan and the Sharingan than Sasori is the magnet release. But, it's easy to see where one would counter-argue with "Zetsu is still attached to Obito". But we've seen the difference between Zetsu using the Kamui (literally on his own) vs. Zetsu forcing Obito to use Rinne Rebirth.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
@Cerez, the white was there before the black has been created, thus we should do some kind of separation in their article at least, like Kamui has (Kakashi/Obito)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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@Omni, which raises question why isn't Sasori considered a user in the first place. A user is someone who has used something intentionally. BZ's case is not that much different from Orochimaru's soul possession now that Obito is out of the game. In a theoretical situation in which Orochimaru would gain Sasuke's body, he will not have been considered a Sharingan user, 'cause he be using other body according to you. It's as clear as day, Obito is unconscious, BZ used Kamui, means he knows how to do it and has done so.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:48, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Ukon was born before Sakon, yet their articles aren't separated are they? I'm against separating their articles because the two operate as a single being most of the time. The information in the article isn't overbearing or confusing so I don't see the need to separate the information. Also Faust-RSI, all the clones were created using Yin-Yang Release from what I understand: one from the statue the other from the clone, it's just that White Zetsu was created first, there is no difference between the two. I really don't see one good reason to separate the articles, simply because they can split themselves. In that case we should create one for Mū's "clone".--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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: Agreed with Eleve, though I do see where you're coming from, Omni. Even so, Sharingan is the medium through which Kamui is used. If Black Zetsu used Kamui (which he did), then he used a Mangekyō Sharingan too. Black Zetsu is a very odd case (jinchūriki; Mangekyō Sharingan; etc), but he ''is'' a user regardless. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
Well, meant separate background/personality/abilities/other stuff sections, not 2 articles for them--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:09, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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Elveo, Fox-Boss, I'm glad you two agree.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 01:13, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:Huh. I don't quite oppose that sort of change in priciple, but it strikes me as very odd. It also puts some other possible scenarios in a weird situation. For example, if a Yamanaka Mind Body Switches someone. Is Santa a Lightning Release, Lightning Cutter user and MS/Sharingan wielder over having piloted Kakashi through the mist against Zabuza? If Ino takes over a kekkei genkai user and performs a kekkei genkai jutsu, does she get listed as a user. Does her diversion of Obito's Mokuton through the Ten-Tails earlier in the battle means she's a Mokuton user? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:26, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::Well No. That point is null. When Santa used MBS on Kakashi, he had already activated the Raikiri and the point of him switching places with Kakashi was so that he could use his sensory abilities to guide Kakashi through Zabuza's mist, which negated Kakashi's Sharingan. And no again, b/c Ino only manipulated Obito to change the Tentails aim. All-in-all, none of those points have any place here. But i do, however, understand what you meant by your argument. And the point is still left null. It's only b/c Zetsu is almost entirely in a different boat here. He literally has the eye implanted into him. I think you are confusing the fact that Zetsu is attached to Obito, with him being able to use the sharingan despite still being attached to him. He obviously doesnt need to be witnessed by him attempting to leave Obito's body (while taking the Rinnegan with him as 665, page 2 clearly shows) and him being attached to a mass of WZ and using Wood Release (an not connected to a live and sentient part of WZ). --'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 05:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
Since they work as a single entity most of the time, it might be best to keep the sections on their background and role in the story as a single section. The same goes for their appearance, since splitting them would basically mean describing a lot of the same things twice. Their abilities, however, may be a different story. Other than Mayfly, which all of their kind can use, the two haven't really displayed any shared abilities. Their abilities section could be split into two the way most articles are split into sections for nature transformation, kekkei genkai, etc.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 18:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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I hope necessary changes will be made accordingly asap. For Sasori, are human puppets conscious? If not, then Sasori should be listed as Magnet Release user imo, since the puppets act more or less as extensions of the puppeteer's body--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:46, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:My reluctance to add Sasori as a Magnet Release user is because listing him as such sort of implies that ''he'' possesses Magnet Release. It's almost like saying he's in the same situation as Yamato, except his use of Magnet Release is tool-based. We decided not to consider Tenten and KinGin as users of each of the five natures because they were being achieved through the fan. The situation is pretty much the same here. Are we simply going to revert the decision regarding the fan? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:27, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Would [[User:BeyondRed/Sandbox|this]] work for a reorganised version of the abilities section?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 21:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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It's not like that hasnt been done before. We have. '''Alot.''' Look at ''Guruguru''(and i use his example very loosely) or [[Raiga]] and [[Ameyuri Ringo]] (lightning release). Each of these characters use a ''tool'' or another independent source of which they are accredited the corresponding chakra. By the rule that you are saying that is ''implied'', neither of their pages should reflect the tool's "nature". '''EDIT:''' There are other examples in [[Hoki]] and [[Seimei]].--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:Raiga and Ameyuri both had at least one Lightning Release technique that didn't involve the swords [[Rock Avalanche]] and [[Lightning Release: Depth Charge]]. What about Guruguru? The statue is a technique, not a tool. It's like Obito's use of Wood Release: Cutting Technique through the Ten-Tails. Regarding the Takumi shinobi, I haven't watched that filler in a long time, but wasn't the point of those swords that they minimized the chakra used by their wielders? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:29, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::The hypocrisy... that's not addressed to you Omni, I'm speaking generally... but people pick and choose as they see fit. So Naruto IS to be considered a user of Lava and Magnet (and composing natures) according to you guys, yet Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user by the same merit. Great consistency indeed. We either remove Naruto's borrowed natures completely or we list borrowed natures and techniques for everyone. Decide now--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:::You've been told the problem with that reasoning enough times already, mostly by Ten-Tailed Fox, so I'll make no effort repeating him here. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Whatever I was told likely didn't make any sense, although I'd like to hear it once more before I accuse anyone of fallacies again.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:48, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Now, lets not get into the Naruto chakra nature incident. Like I said earlier, Black Zetsu's case is different, much like Naruto's, in that he isn't using a tool. He literally is assimilating the abilities of the individual he's occupying.'''EDIT:''' After much review, i've reaized that this is much more like Orochimaru's (and his WZ possession) case than any of the others. -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
I think that's how it should be, but also a separate background since their "birth" differ--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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Kinda knew this topic would be left unresolved like 97% of all the others. =/ Seems valid when I say that this joined the statistic and was successfully bumped. Any objections? -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yeah. I still don't see how Zetsu using it through Obito is any different from Sasori using Magnet Release through a puppet, Tenten and Kinkaku using Wind Release and Fire Release through Bashōsen, and Raiga and Ameyuri using Lightning Release through Kiba swords. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:50, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::So if I put a gun into your hand and make you shoot with my psychic power, you will be the murderer, not me, because it was your hand holding it? Everything Obito does atm is controlled by BZ. BZ using Kamui with Obito's body isn't any different than Kurama doing stuff through Naruto, so no double standards please--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Have you understood what I'm arguing for? By all means, list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add Sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it. Are the other examples I brought up so hard to comprehend? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:49, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::No, it's not hard to understand at all. I mean i get what youre saying. It's just that he ''does'' have a Sharingan. It's implanted on his side. Look at the Chapter page i referred to you guys at the top. It clearly shows that the Black Mass that is BZ has the Rinnegan. It could not have gone that far from Obito's face if it didn't have custody of it already. It's the same case as the Left Sharingan now. I'm not saying list him as a Sharingan user '''solely''' due to him using kamui. But because the Sharingan is literally implanted within him. I hope you get what '''I'm''' saying now. --'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:21, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::The Rinnegan I can see your point, even if Obito was strong enough to prevent BZ from leaving, but the Sharingan as far as we know is implanted in Obito, Zetsu is only "driving" Obito. The fact we can see it over BZ just means we can see it being used, since non-phasing Kamui means getting stuff in and out through the eye. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:31, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::: I take it that you agree that he had temporarily had the rinnegan and should and listed? Your comment kind of confused me about the Left Eye Sharingan. I cant tell if you agree about that or not. But I am overall glad youre seeing my point. If you read between the lines, you'll see that the fact that the left eye is open clearly means that it's ''literally'' Zetsu's now. -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:40, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
1. Yes, Madara never separated them, though this is irrelevant, all of the most important, final arc, they were separated.
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@Omni, "list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it" great, so we will do and as such so should we remove the natures from Naruto's infobox then, because despite him being in control while having used the 'gans, the natures weren't his ;) just like Obito's eye ain't BZ's--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:17, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
2. Ukon and Sakon never acted as separate entities, yet BZ and WZ did. Also, their significance is incomparable with that of Zetsu.
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:@Elveonora The Tailed Beasts, their chakra is inside him, it's his to use. When Zetsu seals Obito inside himself, then your point will hold. @Koto Senju, yes, Rinnegan I agree. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:24, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
3. It was never mentioned WZ was created using Yin-Yang Release, moreover, it is strongly implied it has Yang release only, as seen when Zetsus abnormally react to Naruto's chakra. Moreover, WZ is Hashi's clone, while BZ is basically Madara, I don't know why you ignore that. And this is HUGE difference. I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Muu's jutsu.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 05:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
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::Yea Elveo. The tailed beast are on a whole different spectrum of what we're addressing here. Not very relevant. @Omni, why don't agree on him having Sharingan, but agree to add him as a user of Kamui. Doesnt make sense to have it w/o the Sharingan listed. My whole reasoning for bringing up the Rinnegan is to point out that yes, he was temporarily a user of the Rinne, but also that it's the same for Obito's left eye. Just like the Rinnegan, Obito's left Sharingan is also Zetsu's. This is not just b/c he's occupying Obito's body, but because the eye is literally in the the black goop that ''is'' Black Zetsu. -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:50, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@Omni, again this weird non-existent and irrelevant positional requirement "logic" which I don't get at all, but I'm gonna leave it be...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:55, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
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::::TheUltimate3 has arrived. Zetsu used Kamui and Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan while through Obito, he gets listed. Hurray.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:41, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::<nowiki>*Fan boy reaction*</nowiki> You're my hero! '''Edit:''' how would one go about the wording. "BZ tole blah blah blah and used blah?" -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
   
:In the most recent chapter, Madara told Obito that the beings created through Yin-Yang Release could be used as his pawns, implying that it was used to create the white clones as well. As for completely splitting the article, it could lead to problems on other pages; mentions of Zetsu acting as a single entity on other pages would have to link to one side or the other. Black Zetsu's creation can be explained within a single sentence and he remained merged with White Zetsu for a while after that, so their background section works fine as it is, although the part about Black Zetsu's creation is currently out of order. The abilities section could definitely be separated though, as previously mentioned.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 06:57, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
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@Ulti, I love you, this time :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
   
* Sakon and Ukon have acted independently, they've split up as well.
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== Grass Headband ==
* How much significance a character holds for you is insignificant to the discussion, and not a valid reason. We're supposed to be neutral.
 
* The Zetsu clones were all created from Yin-Yang Release. They react poorly to Naruto full-on Yang-natured chakra because of their genetic makeup. They're vegetation, the Yang-natured chakra is simply activating them. What is happening to them is no different than Danzō's arm turning into a tree.
 
** I'm not ignoring anything. You seem however to be willing to just look past the fact that they're a single entity, that just happen to be able to split and act independently to split their articles for no good reason.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
:* They have, for one battle, hundreds chapter ago. Zetsus did this recently in the most important chapters of this manga. Sakon's and Ukon's significance is almost zero, BZ and WZ have connections to all the most important events of this manga. So no, it is not my personal opinion in any way, it is what this manga shows us thus your comment is no relevant and makes no sense.
 
*My mistake, they did, though one clearly represents Uchiha and Yin while other Senju and Yang. Though this is not the point. The point is that WZ is Hashirama's clone while BZ is not.
 
*They are not single entity in any way, did you miss the part where WZ was existing for-hell-knows-how-long before BZ was even born? Being able to merge don't make them one. There are more characters that are able to merge, but only Sakon and Ukon share the article, even bijuus have their own pages.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 19:14, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
: I'm also for a split in the articles. As far as Zetsu is concerned, Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were created for two completely different purposes using two completely different methods, Black Zetsu has been shown to do things that White Zetsu cannot, they aren't as dependent of each other as we originally thought either. They have different personalities, backgrounds, that kind of thing. Comparing them to Sakon and Ukon is not even applicable. Both White and Black Zetsu have spent a considerable amount of time separate (all the time before Black Zetsu was born, and during most of this Shinobi World War arc). While Sakon and Ukon were shown to separate, we don't know anything about their pasts, or what they're like when they are apart for significant amounts of time. Furthermore, we don't know if they have the exact same abilities, or have different abilities than each other. We do know all these things about the two Zetsu. If, at some point, we learn all of this about Sakon and Ukon, I'd be for splitting them too, but in this case, I think a split is necessary. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
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If you look at it closely it couldn't have been a mistake and in many different manga images it is clear that he has a headband on his chest. not to mention he was in kusagakure with madara and made their. it is also possible to see the rogue cut through the village symbol on his headband. it should at least be added as trivia. if you want to see the headband then look on page 196 of the third data book. look at zetsu's chest. its right there. you can also see part of it when he comes out of the ground to chat with hidan after his ritual. from all of this i think its not possible for you guys to label it as bull shit anymore. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 13:43, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
::They've spent more chronological time together, but as far as on-panel, shown time goes, they haven't separated for that much time, and they didn't do much by themselves after splitting. And even considering the things that they did do after splitting, they spend much more time staying put than actually doing stuff. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:02, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
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:I can't see a headband at all. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 15:59, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
::: Regardless, we have more than enough material to classify them as separate characters. I find it extremely unnecessary to lump them all together when we have so much unique information on their individual selves. They aren't even collectively referred to as "Zetsu" anymore. They haven't been since earlier in Shippuden. They've been referred to as Black Zetsu and White Zetsu for quite some time. I think we have enough to warrant two articles. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
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::[[Talk:Zetsu/Archive_1#Kusagakure?]], [[Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#hugh!]], [[Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#homeplace]] and [[Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#Contradiction]]. Find your answer there. [[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 16:08, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Edit''': Also, should we decide to split them, we could make "Zetsu" a disambiguation to link to all the different Zetsu incarnations, since the term "Zetsu" now applies to Black and White Zetsu, [[Spiral Zetsu]], the [[White Zetsu Army]], and the like. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:19, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
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I can see that as a headband but this was before the whole Zetsu is a plant clone of Hashirama thing. Kishi probably didn't think of that till Madara became more prominent in the story. Even so you can't tell what is on the supposed headband, for all we know it's blank. My sources are the volumes and databook I own. --[[User:Narutofox94|Narutofox94]] ([[User talk:Narutofox94|talk]]) 17:42, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
There is no need to split Zetsu. Up until this current arc, there was only Zetsu, with Black and White personality. Them separating into two physical forms. As mentioned before, that would be like separating [[Sakon and Ukon]] which would result in two articles with the exact same information for the majority of the page.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
: No, Ultimate, there would not. For Sakon and Ukon, that might be the case, but regarding the two Zetsu, there are ample amounts of information amount both to give them completely unique articles. Black and White Zetsu, as a single entity, didn't make too many appearances before this arc. Their plot sections prior to the Five Kage Summit arc is mediocre at best. Its not like they made a ton of appearances as one being. I'm sorry, but, given the unique nature of their creation, the fact that they were created separately, have different personalities, different purposes, and even, in some cases, different abilities, makes it perfectly legitimate. White Zetsu is even dead, at this point. So you're telling me we're gonna keep adding stuff for just Black Zetsu now to this article? Makes no sense. For the last two or three arcs they haven't been merged. At all. There is no legitimate reason to keep them together. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:23, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Separation is the most logical thing to do, I don't see why some people disagree.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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It should be added in trivia at least. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 15:20, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:It's speculation, so no. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 16:49, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
: I have created two sandboxes; [[User:Ten Tailed Fox/Black Zetsu|Black Zetsu]] and [[User:Ten Tailed Fox/White Zetsu|White Zetsu]]. That should serve to demonstrate how different each article can be. It has different information specific to that Zetsu, illustrates their ability differences, even their plot section focuses solely on their actions when they act alone. The only thing that is exactly the same on both articles is the "Creation and Conception" and the "Trivia". Even the quotes are different. I believe this proves we can make them unique articles. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:08, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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Not if it was seen which it was.[[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 01:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
:: Good work, I'm all for making those sandbox articles into the ground for the separate BZ and WZ articles. The only arguments opponents have all sound like "I'm too lazy to do this, this is too much work, let's better do nothing", sorry, but this is how it looks like [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 11:31, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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:Apparently, fans debate if it really was a headband or not, since 2010. I can't see any headband at all, neither in the databook nor when he emerges during Hidan's ritual. If others can see it, they are free to provide the proof, like highlighting the headband via paint or whatnot...[[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 10:32, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
::: I'm gonna wait for one more person to chime in and then we'll go from there. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::I still don't see the benefit from splitting the article. Even the databook didn't bother splitting the profile between WZ and BZ. I don't see the cost/benefit in doing the split. Besides, changing all the links to BZ and WZ isn't something that can simply be done with a bot. The article as is is perfectly capable of informing everything there is to know about Zetsu, B&W. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:09, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
::::: The databooks have nothing to do with this. When the last databook came out, Zetsu had not been split up for two arcs. You can bet the next databook ''will'' have them separated, as it has now been revealed that they have different origins and different purposes. As the sandboxes I created show, they even have different abilities and Black Zetsu is more of a fighter, while White Zetsu, as Obito mentioned, is not a "front line" fighter. They're different in numerous ways. They even have different personalities. As I said before, if Sakon and Ukon had displayed this many differences and this much independence from one another, as Black and White Zetsu have, I'd be asking for them to split too. If its really just the links you're worried about, there are editors that are more than willing to do that. But really, I and others see it as a necessity. They're too different to keep on the same article. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:16, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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In the third data book on his profile page. look at his full body image. now look for a small opening in the venus fly trap-like things and you will see it. i believe in an older talk page discussion on zetsus page a user even had a pic of it in close up if you want to check that out. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 15:31, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
   
:There is no benefit in splitting the pages. You say it is nothing like Sakon and Ukon, but fail to say how it is so. For the overwhelming majority of the series there has only been Zetsu. Hell, even splitting they've done nothing that warrants the articles being split. There is ''nothing'' that requires this page to be split.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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Its in archive two in the discussion called hugh! a user provides a high quality link image to it. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 15:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
::Hell, even your proposal pages feed into my argument. Both the articles are practically the same.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:30, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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:Yes, I observed these images as well. Still, I don't see a headband. I honestly can't even imagine how people tell themselves they see one there.
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:A few facts why I believe this whole discussion is redundant:
  +
*'''1.''' If Kishimoto would have gone through the "trouble" to draw him an own headband, why would he suddenly stop doing so? Never again did we see something there, [[:File:Zetsu dividing.png|right]]?
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*'''2.''' Considering Zetsu's whole background story, it would not make any sense for him to come from Kusagakure as he never had anything in common with that village. We don't list Madara as a Kusagakure shinobi either, just because he spend decades of his life there, staring at Hashirama's clone, do we?
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*'''3.''' Since you bring up the databook so often...if Kishimoto wanted to make Zetsu a Kusagakure shinobi, he would definitively list him as such in his databooks. With one-hundred percent certainty. But he never did so. I am looking at Zetsu's article in the [[Sha no Sho]] right now. The image you are using as proof is right there, yet his little box on top of the page that tells about the village of origin is '''empty'''.
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:If that isn't enough to convince you, I won't be able to help you any further here. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 16:21, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
   
: I told you how it was different from Sakon and Ukon. Sakon and Ukon appeared for less than half an arc. There is no information on their background, they have the exact same abilities and even similar personalities. Not the case here with these two. Funny, because if you look up, you'll see these explanations two or three times. Secondly, yes there is ''everything'' to requite these pages being split. They have different personalities, different origins, different purposes, different abilities, and besides that, the only argument we seem to be getting from you, just like with the Obito and Tobi split, is "its too much work". Also, looking back over my proposals, I see numerous differences, particularly in the background and abilities sections, as well as towards the arcs in which they become more prominent as separate characters. They're two completely different people. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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== Split ==
   
::And their articles will be get this 80% the same (yes I pulled a number out my bum). Look at the current article and the two proposals you wrote up. At most the only noticeable difference is they are separate (obviously) and alot of uses of "both Zetsu". There is no logical reason to split a page if the information is just go in to be repeated in another with 1 or 2 words changed in a attempt to make it different. There is nothing wrong with the current set up, and splitting them will cause more problems than solve because there was nothing to solve.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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So, can we separate White and Black Zetsus' page now, at last? Chapter 678 further proved they have nothing to do with each other, neither regarding creation, nor the way they "function". Black Zetsu is a parasitic symbiont that can exist on any body, control it and use its powers. He did so with original White Zetsu, but also on several other occasions. There weren't really any firm arguments for them staying together for a long time except for some people stubbornness. All we need to do is to gather more opinions of more people with common sense.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 05:23, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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: Honestly, they should've been split long ago. Yes, I am entirely in support of splitting them. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:27, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:I agree, the two halves are way too different in nearly every regard to be on the same page. [[User:Kamikaze839|<span style="color:#8A2BE2;">'''Kamikaze839'''</span>]] 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:: 678 definitely supports this. Good luck to anyone trying to argue this. --'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 05:43, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Go ahead for me. Seems this chapter confirmed that the Black Zetsu has different personality and abilities from the White Zetsu. —[[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 05:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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Please give me the ok to go ahead and start this. -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 05:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
* logic full of win, White&Black Zetsu have a single common article, while "Spiral Zetsu" has his own. We either include all "Zetsus" in one or keep each separated if different enough--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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Please add that Black Zetsu is the will of Kaguya NOT Madara, as recently revealed in this chapter 05:54, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Kamui
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: No. You know the process around here. There are others that have to weigh in. Wait. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:12, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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I agree, about time it should be split --[[User:Kasan94|Kasan94]] ([[User talk:Kasan94|talk]]) 06:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
: Completely agreed. Sorry, Ultimate, but your logic makes zero sense. There is ample material to make two separate articles and there should be two separate articles. They are two unique characters and, especially now, with White Zetsu dead and their inability to rejoin, its important that we emphasize the differences in their characters. My sandboxes were just examples of how it could be done. Once we actually get to doing it, the final result will be much different than those sandboxes. Unless you can give us all a reason other than "too much work" or Sakon and Ukon, which aren't even comparable cases, then you really have no basis for stopping the split of the article. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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I went ahead and split it. I put tabs of both new articles into this page so that links to [[Zetsu]] will still mostly work. If the tabs end up having bad side effects, then some other solution will need to be thought up. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 07:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:Works for me. Though we should change main picture of WZ to something from the times of Obito's rehabilitation. Also, Guruguru and Hashirama should be removed from BZ infobox (somehow I can't edit it myself?!), and maybe Kaguya should be added.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 07:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:: Wouldn't a simple disambiguation page be enough? Could add Guruguru and the White Zetsu Army (as links) to that disambiguation, since they have all been referred to as "Zetsu". ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I was going to do that, but this a) seems less frustrating from a reader's perspective, and b) spares people's obsessive need to update redirects. I've put a {{tlx|see also}} up top for the other Zetsus. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 07:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Well I'm less than pleased to wake up and see this. Is there a way to preserve the old image of Zetsu at least? Most of the pictures I've seem of them together is far enough you don't get a good shot of black/white face.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::There is still a chance we'll find a picture with a closer face of WZ. Regarding BZ - he has no face at all, he is just a black mass that takes form only covering someone else's body. I think his picture should be changed to that once the anime catch up to the chapter his real look was demonstrated in.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 08:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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I was talking about an image of them in one body. The headshot in the original infobox.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:I think it's a technical issue. Original Zetsu page doesn't have any content of its own, it only shows separate WZ and BZ pages, thus their infoboxes. I'm not sure if we can add independent infobox here, nor that I think it's really needed.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 08:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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With all due respect, I think it took way too long to finally split this page. And why do we really need that tabbed info there? Why not just make this a disambiguation page, with Guruguru and White Zetsu Army as part of the list? [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] ([[User_talk:Yatanogarasu|Talk]]) 01:21, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
::Spiral Zetsu for most of the series didn't exist, and other than a common origin, shares nothing with the B&W Zetsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:21, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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== Not a Mangekyo user ==
   
:::Omni is correct on Spiral Zetsu. Save common origin, nothing is similar and his page ends where it does. No matter how you say it, the information will be the same, if only different because it was worded differently to make it different. You can ignore it all you want, but to split a page into two when most of the information will be similar is pointless.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:29, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
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Just because he can use it while controlling Obito doesn't make it his. Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user, for example. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 05:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:Nope not going through this again. Read the sections above. Debate settled.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 05:39, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:: ^ This. He is in control of Obito's body, and initiated Kamui. He is a user same as Naruto is a Tailed Beast Ball user when in control of Kurama's power. This discussion has already been had and is solved.~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
TheUltimate3, you are completely unfair to the sandbox articles. They are only '''examples''', and they were created by one man, he did it all ''alone''. You can't demand perfection from them, the good content will be created by the community. Developing those pages will obviously drop your "80%" down. But they will never be 100% different, though only few articles here have 100% unique content, you can't avoid interdependencies among different characters.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 09:03, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
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You're current argument basically states that we should have Sasori listed as a user of Magnet release [[User:Officialkamuiblade|Officialkamuiblade]] ([[User talk:Officialkamuiblade|talk]]) Kamui
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: <edit: since someone thought they'd be a cute little troll and edit my message like a five year old> No. Not happening again. This argument was done and resolved. Its not the same so leave it. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:15, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:: I absolutely L-O-V-E how people act like their opinions about rehashed arguments matter more if they keep beating on the dead horse. Seriously? Your opinions matter of course, but unless you do as advised and read the topic like two sections above, then your words have little credibility.--'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:35, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Well, in my honest opinion Sasori should be listed as Magnet user, too--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:44, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: He won't until I see ''him'' using it. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:45, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Well, his chakra strings were moving the puppet which had it, so shrugs. A non-conscious piece of wood can hardly be considered to be the user in such a case imo--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:48, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
I don't really think they require seperate articles as most of the information is just going to be repeated.— {{User:UltimateSupreme/SigCode|09:12 UTC|Monday|29 October 2012}}
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== Tabs or no tabs ==
   
I can't believe we're still on this though. Browsing through the sandboxes I see no difference between the two articles. The people for the split are basing it on the simple premises that "they were created separately/differently" which I think is utter rubbish. If he was created with his own body and not poured into White Zetsu, you guys would have a more substantial argument from my perspective. Have White and Black Zetsu even done enough apart to be considered separate entities? ...no they have not: we'd have one paragraph saying they did x and then everything will be the same- that is not ample amount of information to split an article. The hassle of having to do that and then simply transcribing the information to another article is ludicrous.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:25, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
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Rather than continue this through edit summaries, please discuss it here.
   
== Madara Uchiha ==
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To repeat my earlier points:
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#Tabs are less frustrating from a reader's perspective, as they will not end up clicking a link that takes them to a page that just gives them another link to click.
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#Spares people's obsessive need to update redirects, because how do you refer to Zetsu before chapter 45X? <code><nowiki>[[Black Zetsu|Zet]][[White Zetsu|su]]</nowiki></code> all over the place?
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TTF says using tabs just repeats information, but what's wrong with that? It's not as though information is being copy and pasted from the individual articles to this one.
   
Shouldn't Madara Uchiha be put as Creator in the Family? Or the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path? Since we are including others in Zetsu's family branch[[Special:Contributions/50.9.79.129|50.9.79.129]] ([[User talk:50.9.79.129|talk]]) 19:10, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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Anyway, please discuss. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 20:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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: I say it defeats the purpose of the split. "Zetsu", as a term, refers not only to White and Black Zetsu (which the tabber system makes central), but to all artificial humans created by Madara from Hashirama's DNA. It was originally used to describe the merged form of White and Black Zetsu (reflected in my edit), but now applies to them all. It doesn't make any logical sense to me to have three articles with the exact same content, when the purpose of the split was to illustrate how radically different the two of them are in both personality, abilities, and purpose. With the tabber system, all that has been done is splitting the two halves into different articles and then remerging them on one page.
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: With a disambiguation page, like I did, you mention the fact that White and Black Zetsu were the origin of the term, but it now applies to all artificial humans, and then you can link to all occurrences of the term "Zetsu". Just makes more sense to me. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
"father" ? :O--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:35, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
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::The marginalization of the other Zetsus is expected, inevitable, and consistent with other pages. When some name is shared between multiple pages, one of those pages needs to take preference. In this case that preference is given to the first Zetsus seen in the series and the ones that have made the most contributions.
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::The purpose of the split, to my understanding, was to make it easier to distinguish one Zetsu from another. Tabs do not diminish this. If the split is to make each half wholly unique, that isn't going to happen considering how long they're together; seriously, 1/3 to 1/2 of both articles are verbatim copies of each other.
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::And I really think the two points I made are far more important. Wanting to do "justice" to the topic(s) is a fine thing, but if that makes it more difficult for the people who actually use the site, readers and users alike, then to hell with justice. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 21:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::: I fail to see how having to click a link to Black and White Zetsu (which by the way, are established as different characters) makes it harder on them. In fact, does it not make it easier on our readers to have all references to all Zetsu in one place? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I can make the same arguments. How does having to click a link to Guruguru and White Zetsu Army make it harder? Does it not make it easier to have both articles tabbed in one place?
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::::Guruguru and White Zetsu Army have always been ''separate'' Zetsu since the moment of their introduction. Black and White were the only Zetsu and, from a reader's perspective, the same Zetsu for a very long time. 9/10 searches for "Zetsu" are going to intend Black, White, or both, and therefore they should be the focus of [[Zetsu]].
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::::Would it be an improvement for you if the see also at the top were more detailed? '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 23:07, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::: Perhaps, yes. That would be a fair enough concession. I admit, your points are fair. Just seems a bit redundant to me to have split them, and then still have them united on this page. So yes, if there is a bit more detailed of a See also section, that'd be fair enough for me. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
I was thinking the same thing. Though something besides 'father'... lol [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 09:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
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I think it's incredibly redundant and sloppy to have an article for each half and then simultaneously have the original Zetsu page contain the exact same information. What's the point of separate articles if we're just going to turn Zetsu's page into a cluster containing both articles? Besides, the Zetsu article should be about the complete character, especially considering Black/White Zetsu spend the majority of the series together so what we have is both tabs being largely word for word until the very latest arcss. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 20:20, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Clones don't usually get relations to people, the living clone is still its genetic source at least physically. What would be put there anyway, "will giver"? It's not really necessary to draw a line to Madara in this case.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:36, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
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::May I interject? Well, I've seen this on other wikis: White Zetsu Army/White Zetsu and White Zetsu Army/Black. Maybe an idea? --[[User:KiumaruHamachi|KiumaruHamachi]] ([[User talk:KiumaruHamachi|talk]]) 23:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
   
== Abilities ==
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I see no need for the tabber system here. After all, if we are going to do tabs, then why not just never split the page into two? We can just turn this into a disambiguation. [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] ([[User_talk:Yatanogarasu|Talk]]) 01:55, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:I agree with this. Let them be their own stand alone articles, and the Zetsu page be a disambiguation that links to WZ, BZ, Guruguru, and the army. [[User:Benknightprime|&#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34;]] ([[User talk:Benknightprime|talk]]) 03:14, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:: Thank God I'm not the only one. Anyone else? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:11, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::The tabs are unnecessary. Plus, it's messing the infobox too. ~[[User:IndxcvNovelist|<span style="color:#8B008B;">'''IndxcvNovelist'''</span>]] <sup><span style="color:#1E90FF;">→[[User talk:IndxcvNovelist|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/IndxcvNovelist|contribs]] • [http://www.wattpad.com/user/indxcvnovelist watty]←</span></sup> 07:18, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::::No opinion. I didn't want the article split at all.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:01, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Do you at least agree that there needed to be some cleaner way of dividing one Zetsu's actions from the other's?
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:::::And what, IndxcvNovelist, is wrong with the infoboxes? '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 17:30, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::I think that, like Indx, the jutsu section is missing. Also, i too favor completely splitting the articles. However, i don't think redundancy is the issue here. Their simply two characters who were explored in the series at the same time. There's no way around that. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if they weren't so major, but they are. That's just a coincidence. --'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:50, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::It's absolutely repetitive to have the Black and White Zetsu pages, and then again here. Either just keep the two split pages and turn this into a disambiguation, or return them into one page, no split whatsoever. This "compromise" we are at is totally redundant. [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] ([[User_talk:Yatanogarasu|Talk]]) 00:10, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::I find it funny that, despite us being here before, that some of you think that the redundancy is the issue. It's true that it's key in deciding what to do, but it's not the point. It's really not. We've done this before. We're not new to the practice. There are a few examples i could think of off the top of my head. Think of this less as a ''complication'', but more as a coincidence. --'''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 00:45, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
   
As with the newest manga, Dream World 606, Black Zetsu is a portion of Madara's will. In the abilities section it says black zetsu has the ability to record things such as battles and 'show' these recordings to Tobi. In manga 604 White zetsu says he can telepathically communicate with his clones. I'm not sure if this is evidence enough but it's apparent to me at least that black zetsu is watching the battles, gives the memory to White zetsu (because they are able to share a body) and White Zetsu transmits the memory to the part of Tobi's body that was made from Hashirama's cells. {{unsigned|Jiraiya1}}
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How is redundancy not the issue here? There are 4 articles right now… that needs to be addresses now. Why not leave the tabs hats off to the person who did it it sedated both sides that want/don't want the articles should be split. That's my 2 cents at least.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:49, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
:Or maybe Obito uses the Sharingan to view the memories. It's all speculation either way. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:51, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
== Quotes. ==
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:Even if that were to be done, the method would be the same. Maybe the separate pages would be named [[Zetsu/Black]] and [[Zetsu/White]] instead, but there would still be a necessary separateness in order to produce the current effect. <small>That's admittedly not entirely true; you could have two versions of the article stored in the same page, but that's messier to work with.</small> '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 04:00, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
   
The quote section seems a little.. Uneven? Considering White Zetsu is the one with a mouth, there isn't much quotes coming from him. Just an observation. [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 05:21, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
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:Sorry bout that. Wasn't near a computer again since I left work. Anyway, yeah I haven't a clue how to make this not messy.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:27, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
:He doesn't usually say anything quote-worthy. You're also assuming that Black Zetsu doesn't have a mouth...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:34, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Semi-offtopic, but just to clarify... BlackZetsu has a mouth/tongue/teeth, it could be seen on a chapter cover I think--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:20, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
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::It's simple isn't it? We make up our minds on whether we want two separate articles or have both articles merged into one. We can't have it both ways. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 08:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
:[[:File:Chapter_487.jpg|He does not]]. Which is possibly why they have to fuse to feed. Even the need (i'm assuming it's a need and not because it amuses them) to feed seems to stem from Black Zetsu based on what White and Spiral Zetsu have said. Just another reason their articles shouldn't be separated, though that's just my speculation. On a side note though, I love that chapter cover.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: I don't think he was talking about a mouth in a literal manner, though I could be wrong. In general, White Zetsu is the more mouthy individual than Black Zetsu. That's what he meant. Also, Cerez, doesn't the fact that Black Zetsu needs to feed while White Zetsu does not only further to illustrate their differences? Hmmmm. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 15:36, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::My point was leaning towards the possibility that one cannot survive without the other. Still speculation on my part.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:57, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
No, I wasn't talking in the literal sense. [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 04:56, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
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:::Why can't we? We have ten chapter articles in one volume article; things seem to function alright there. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 08:30, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
==order of apearance==
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That's different. We're talking about four articles for one character.. obviously something's amiss here. It's messy and pointless and it serves no purpose at all. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 19:29, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
Wasnt White Zetsu killed by Sasuke before Chojuro killed Black Zetsu? i remember WZ's death was before ET Madara showed up, wheras Chojuro killed BZ around when Madara was fighting the kages.--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 22:55, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
After--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:04, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
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Tabs are unnecessary. Turn this into a disambiguation. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 19:45, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
I checked, you are wrong. [http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/58-553.0/compressed/p553.14.jpg?v=11314794655| Sasuke incincerated WZ in chapter 553], [http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/59-562.0/compressed/g11.jpg?v=11320219866|and Chojuro killed BZ in 562.]--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 23:26, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
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Bump. Why are we even splitting the Zetsu into Black and White if we are just gonna tab them like this? There are three characters, plus an army of 100,000 bearing the name "Zetsu", it makes no sense not to use this is as a simple disambiguation. [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] ([[User_talk:Yatanogarasu|Talk]]) 04:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
Cool, glad you answered your own question. Why is it relevant again?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:29, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
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== So what now? ==
   
== A bit confused ==
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Cause yeah. Looks like Madara ain't do crap.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 07:47, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
There is something that i'm a bit uncertain about, and can't really get a clear answer from the article so here goes. White Zetsu was made from Hashirama Senju's DNA, therefor it can use wood release, that´s certain. Was Black Zetsu then made from Madara Uchiha DNA (since he created it) or what? and can Black then still use wood release? --[[User:Kasan94|Kasan94]] ([[User talk:Kasan94|talk]]) 20:42, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
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He did. He imitated Kaguya when he made them. He did read the tablet, remember. Also, can we finally agree that the Shinju (and Kaguya) have wood release? [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 07:51, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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: The Shinju does not have Wood Release. Nor does Kaguya. Madara imitated Kaguya and used the cultivated cells of Hashirama to created his own White Zetsu. Kaguya did it with Infinite Tsukuyomi. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 08:10, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::You sound so sure of yourself. What ur basically saying is that there are 2 different kinds of White Zetsu that just happen to look identically. Although I'm wondering, since women and non-human animals were trapped too, does that mean they would turn into a male/human WZ? ._.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:43, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I think you guys went way off what I was getting at.
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:::This chapter implies that the original Zetsus were the original brain child of Kaguya. So wtf does that mean for well...Zetsu?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:34, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Try to be more concrete, I don't get what you are getting at--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:03, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
Black Zetsu was made by using a technique similar to the Sage of Six paths. Basically he was made from nothing and added to the original White Zetsu. He can use Wood Release as shown when he fought Naruto and Chojuro along with his communicating via roots with his other half. If he does have DNA, it would likely also be a copy of Hashirama's. On that note, he is more robot like, having that sort of voice and seemingly the ability to record fights in his head. He is Zetsu, but not, if that makes any sense. If White Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama with a goofy persona, I'd hazard to say Black Zetsu is a robot built in a more serious image. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 21:25, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
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Oh, something stumbled upon my mind. [[God: Nativity of a World of Trees]] actually explains why Madara's Zetsu look nothing like Hashirama despite having almost identical DNA as him. All "zetsu'd" people gain the same appearance.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:23, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
Dare me to say this, but Black Zetsu is to White Zetsu what Tailed Beasts are to Ten-Tails.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:40, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
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:Basically the implications of this chapter is that all Zetsu were made through God: Nativity of a World of Trees]], to be Kaguya's soldiers. Which means either Madara didn't actually make Zetsu he just found them or Kaguya is really good with playing with toys she had never seen before.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:26, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
: Thanks a lot! So Madara is just the creator, and part from that have nothing with Black Zetsu. --[[User:Kasan94|Kasan94]] ([[User talk:Kasan94|talk]]) 12:23, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
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::Nah, we are 100% positive that Madara and Obito made their own WZ. Although it's more than probable that [[White Zetsu]] actually already was there somewhere (explaining why he was called an original by others) and Madara simply made Hash-enhanced replicas of him. If this is true, then WZ was a leftover Zetsu from centuries ago--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:34, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
::Well, Black Zetsu is a "copy" of Madara in a spiritual sense, not biological. His "will" embodied.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:35, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Will and Memories, don't forget Black Zetsu has knowledge on many things White Zetsu and the others didn't.[[User:VlenFlyheight|VlenFlyheight]] ([[User talk:VlenFlyheight|talk]]) 12:39, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Respond Accordingly please. ==
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back to the talk about him being a grass ninja. sooo sense he was there before all this then its possible that he did become a grass ninja and its not speculation right? [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:36, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:Grass Village didn't exist back then. So unless he decided to become a Grass ninja later in his life before Madara found him, not really--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:41, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
== SuperVibrato and Samehada ==
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So we've now been given a number of origin stories for White Zetsu:
Ok, so I was rewatching the Kisame vs Killer Bee fight, and I had the funniest thought. Although im good and ready to add this, but Zetsu is a user of the [[Supervibrato Lightning Release Swords]] and [[Samehada]]. Why? In that fight, not only did Samehada respond to him, but Zetsu's clone also wielded the blade. As for the Vibrato Swords, the clone also wielded them and even attempted to attack Killer Bee with them. All of this is support enough to add him as a wielder. [[User:JaZZBaND|JaZZBaND]] ([[User talk:JaZZBaND|talk]]) 01:55, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
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* Obito: Grown from the Hashirama-clone-tree using stored tailed beast chakra.
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* Sakura: Clones made from Hashirama's DNA using plants as a medium.
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* Madara: Grown from the Hashirama-clone-tree using the Mazo's own chakra and Yin-Yang Release.
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* Black Zetsu: Victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi assimilated by the Shinju's life force.
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They all fit together, more or less: Infinite Tsukuyomi victims + Shinju/Mazo/tailed beast chakra + connection to the Shinju/Hashirama-tree + Yin-Yang Release (?) = White Zetsu.
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We shouldn't claim to know whether Madara/Obito's White Zetsu were created with human victims or not until it's confirmed. Whose to say Madara didn't attach people to his Shinju knock-off after using his Sharingan-based Infinite Tsukuyomi knockoff?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 18:22, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:The way I understand it, Kaguya at one point used the technique, but though BZ says becoming a WZ is what happens once you're in IT too long, I don't see confirmation this actually happened at that time. Hagoromo made no mention of them or anything similar when he spoke to Naruto. If she did, she kept them well hidden and they remained so for a long time. Madara probably developed them or discovered them by experimenting with the statue after getting the Rinnegan in his old age, this is when Hashirama cells got involved in the mix. This is the main WZ we know came to be. Obito later using that White Zetsu as a template used the tailed beast chakra to make more, that were further enhanced by Kabuto. This is how I can account for all we know so far. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:50, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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Too many speculations there from just one BZ's line. His line wasn't referring to the past events, he just described what WILL happen to the victims of IT. That doesn't mean it already happened in the past or that White Zetsu is a being of several thousands years old accidentally found by Madara. That's all fan-made. All we know, there are actually 4 types of Zetsus:
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#Madara's, that are made from Hashi's DNA (which grew into Hashi's clone and a small version of God Tree with Lotus flower), using Gedo Mazou as catalyst, i.e. it means Madara's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+GM chakra
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#Obito's, that are similar to Madara's, but are an enhanced version of them, i.e. Obito's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+Yamato's DNA+GM chakra+7 bijuus' chakra (!).
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#Original White Zetsu's [[parasite clone]]s - actual living beings made with a jutsu (like power of creation!).
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#Kaguya's, that are made from actual people chakra (and maybe bodies?)+God Tree.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 19:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Zetsu and Wood Release ==
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He obviously was talking about the past, he ain't no oracle. Don't try to twist things in an attempt to avoid what we are being told.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:24, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:Then enlighten me, because you are the one twisting things here. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 05:24, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:: I agree with Elve. Like I said in the forums. We now have multiple different ways to make White Zetsu. Don't forget, Sakura and the Medical Corps proved through DNA testing that the White Zetsu Army were clones of Hashirama Senju and possessed his Wood Release. Madara and Obito both cultivated Hashirama's cells to make theirs. Kaguya uses the Infinite Tsukuyomi to make hers. I'll use the analogy again; there are a lot of different ways to cook a turkey. Its still a turkey in the end. Same logic applies here. There are a lot of different ways to make White Zetsu and it still be White Zetsu. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:42, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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::: I can't see how you agree with Elve and disagree with me, when I myself described essentialy the same methods to produce a zetsu. We didn't even discuss this topic with her. All we talked about wer past and future, i.e. if BZ described what happened in the past (Elve), or only described general process plus what will happen in the future (me).[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 08:32, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Foxie, the Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't what turns them into WZ, that's just a genjutsu (seemingly) designed to grant them a peaceful death, because Kaguya obviously is a philanthropist. [[God: Nativity of a World of Trees]] transforms them into WZ. The IF is a Matrix so to speak. They are projected imagery of a perfect world full of happiness, unaware that they are dying. @Faust, it already happened in the past. Remember, it was Madara who cast [[God: Nativity of a World of Trees]] so for BZ and Kaguya to know its effect, she must have done the same. Unless you believe that BZ just guessed about a technique that he hadn't known, seen or heard of that the cocooned people will turn into WZ. To assert than you can make an omelette from eggs, someone must have done it before for you to know it's possible and replicate it.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:04, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Except it was impossible to cast IT in the past because there wasn't damn Moon back then. Sure, with her powers Kaguya could do something similar (I think Hagoromo mentioned it?), but no way on the same scale as Madara. From those experiments she could have learnt the actual effects of people turning into zetsus. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 10:08, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::IF doesn't require the moon. It's just a tool to help cast it onto everyone. Remember, she had a Byakugan, that pretty much substitutes for the moon.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:15, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::That's what I'm saying, she couldn't cast in on everyone, but she could still try it on some group of people... What??? You just said Byakugan substitutes for the moon?? I'm not sure if I want to discuss this nonsense. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 10:19, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
Ok people, we've been doing these discussions for a while and we've been getting nowhere...the thing is...Zetsu is dead, soo i'm not expecting to have much more info on the guy and his skills. So here's the thing: the guy and it's brothers are living Wood Release creations...they are the KKG given life...''they turn into trees'' when they die. As such there are several techniques displayed by Zetsu that should be remarked as Wood Release:
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What nonsense? I don't even know what is there to argue about. The manga without a doubt said that she used Infinite Tsukuyomi. Since as you said there was no moon back then, it's a logical deduction that her Byakugan must have helped her accomplish so--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:21, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
* Mayfly: a tehcnique where the guy not only can merge with the ground and trees but travel through it using underground networks of roots...all wood/plant related.
 
* ''Mayfly Communication Technique'': a technique that allow communication by connection to networks of underground roots...again, wood/plant related.
 
* Spore Technique: Do i really need to spell it? A technique where one uses spores, a plant-related object to grow into full blown creatures, much like plant spores travel around and grow from place to place?
 
   
All of these 3 techniques are completely wood/plant related and only the Wood Release can manifest this kinda of stuff. Now for the Parasite Clone, the body spliting technique and the Substitute technique, i'm willing to let that slide, even though chakra absorption is another WR component.
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== Infobox images ==
   
This is starting to affect other pages, to the point where we listed Madara as the user of a similar technique as the Mayfly and billed it as Wood Release in his abilities section when it's not WR related at all. I'm asking to break this standstill and do the necessary changes. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:53, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
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Which ones are better for the both Zetsus' infobox images? The [[:File:White Zetsu.png|previous]] [[:File:Black Zetsu.png|ones]] or the [[:File:BZetsu.png‎|current]] [[:File:WZetsu.png‎|ones]]? [[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 10:12, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
::You've got my vote. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 01:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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:Hm. I support the current ones. They seem much more like profile pictures. Nice one Shakhmoot-sama.--'''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 10:55, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
:::My vote too. Lets see what older contributors and admin have to say. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 01:41, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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::Thanks KotoSenju-san for the compliment, but I wasn't the one who uploaded those current images. Anyhow, it's better to keep them. [[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 11:08, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Oh! Kudos to the uploader then too. Usually you upload great photos so the the confusion was easy to make. Glad that you agree. Hopefully more will share our opinion.--'''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 11:20, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::: This is not about a vote. That's not how information is found out around here. Its about what the correct information is. Truthfully, there is no concrete evidence that Mayfly, and its associated techniques, are [[Wood Release]]. Similar techniques have appeared that are, actually [[Earth Release]]. Examples being; [[Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique]], [[Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage]], [[Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique]], and [[Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique]]. Communication through roots is also not evidence of Wood Release. Until a databook says otherwise, we are leaving the classifications ambiguous because the truth is, we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is Wood Release. Furthermore, just because Zetsu was made with Hashirama's cells doesn't mean ''all'' of his techniques are Wood. Wood is made of Earth and Water, so it is just as plausible that Mayfly and its associates are Earth. Until confirmation, or some more evidence, they stay how they are. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:26, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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== Wood Release ==
::::: Your right it's not about voting...it's about interpreting the information....Earth Release manipulates earth in it's various forms...Water Release manipulates water...Wood Release manipulates wood/plant life...soo traveling and communicating through roots, which are plant life, certainly counts, and also the spore technique, since spores are also plant-related. And none of the techniques you've mentioned have the traveling range nor the speed of Mayfly, and with some of them you can only use the ground not trees...yes, not all of his techniques ''have'' to be Wood Release, hence why i only mentioned 3 specific ones. And it's not your decision if things stay how they are, it's one of consensus, unless contradictory evidence appears to contradict it...plus we have classified stuff on lesser ground than this... [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:41, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::: I agree with fox. Lets not jump to conclusions since we've only seen Zetsu use this skill. For all we know this could be an exclusive skill that only Zetsu can use. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 05:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
@Darksusanoo: Unfortunately, in this case, its not about consensus. Its about what information is presented in the series, and nothing, I repeat, nothing, gives any of us concrete evidence that the three techniques you mentioned were Wood Release. Nothing. Speculation and your personal interpretations do, but we do not put such things to a vote and then add such information on that. We only add information when a reasonable conclusion can be made or when it is flat out stated, not when a user wants to present his or her interpretations and wants them added. So yes, it will stay how it is for now. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:10, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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So did Hashirama play any role at all?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:Which is why i started the discussion to break the standstill...i did not ask for votes and i think you misinterpreted my intentions. And you're the one who's doing the speculation, since you're disregarding one of the Wood Release basic concepts and interpreting that it can't be Wood Release. I did not speculate anything, i interpreted something by following a concept introduced in the series for a fairly early point. If you want to present an actual counter-argument go ahead, since it's the discussion's whole point. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 05:27, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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:What are you referring to? his DNA? -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 14:28, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
::When did the ability to transport through roots and flora become a basic concept for Wood Release? Like I said earlier, I think you're jumping to conclusions before the facts have been laid out completely. Why not wait for the next fanbook or later chapters to see if another wood release user uses Mayfly or starts communicating like Zetsu does? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 05:33, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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::Wondering if WZ's capability to use Wood Release had anything with Hashirama at all.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:31, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::It is very screwy. On the one hand he shouldn't. But then Sakura and Shizune saw that most of White Zetsu DNA was basically Hashirama's. Very screwy indeed.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:35, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: It's probably safest to say that they were infused with Hashirama's DNA. How else would Madara think he had a part in their creation? Also, Ulti's comment above. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 14:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Was the original WZ actually ever shown using Wood Release or just the army clones produced with TB chakra?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:41, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::(Apparently, WZ was sealed along with the TT, but summoned with the Gedo.) Through Black Zetsu's half yes. But the Army clones primarily used it. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 14:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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No, the original White Zetsu was killed before he could do anything interesting. That said, Black Zetsu, which had half of White Zetsu's body did Wood Release just fine, which kinda breaks logic. -__- -[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:53, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
::: Okay, let me clear up a few matters, because you're missing the point. First of all, I doesn't matter to me if the technique(s) is Wood or not. In fact, I never said they ''weren't''. All I am saying is that there is no way to know for sure. They could be Fire Release and I couldn't care less. I do care about facts, however. How do you even know they ''are'' elemental techniques? There is no indication. None. Wood Release does not manipulate plants. It manipulates wood, sometimes trees, which are made of wood. The flowering technique of Madara, is because trees produce flowers, but Wood itself doesn't manipulate plant matter. At all. So, it has nothing to do with the "basic concepts of Wood Release". But that is besides the point. Mayfly allows him to phase through wood, earth, and did you forget the concrete of the Uchiha Hideout too? I don't think that is wood, nor did it have roots.
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Them having been enhanced by Madara with Hash cells makes sense, what doesn't tho is that their DNA is almost identical to Hashirama's. Not even Yamato is almost identical. It's just weird ._.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:21, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
::: We have to get to a point on this wiki where we accept that Kishimoto is going to leave somethings a mystery. ''Naruto'' is a story, which means Kishimoto is only concerned with revealing information that will bring the story to a conclusion. What element [[Mayfly]] is, is not one of those, so he may never tell us what element Mayfly is, if it even ''is'' an elemental technique. Just because someone, in this case Zetsu, dies with mysteries still surrounding them, doesn't mean we can jump on the boat of speculation and just start marking everything he did as Wood Release. It just isn't happening that way. This wiki documents ''facts''. And you have ''none'' that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zetsu's other techniques are Wood Release, therefore they will not be marked as such.
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Well, lets try this:
  +
* As I already suspected sometime back, only the [[White Zetsu Army]] are clones of Hashirama. If it hadn't been for Kaguya/Gedo Mazo, they would have looked identically to him.
  +
* White Zetsu was originally a human "zetsu'd" with [[God: Nativity of a World of Trees]] and the reason why Black Zetsu could use Wood Release with half of his body is because White Zetsu also got enhanced with Yamato, mystery solved--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
::: That doesn't mean we'll never know. The next databook could very well tell us what Mayfly is, if it is anything. Or, who knows? Maybe Kishi will clear it up in the manga, though I severely doubt it. But that doesn't mean he will, and in the event that he doesn't, then those techniques shall never be classified as elemental techniques, because we simply do not know. There is not enough evidence. None. Its all circumstantial;
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I currently understand that White Zetsu's Wood Release is due to Madara's first tinkering with them when he thought he had created them from the statue, similar to Yamato. This would result in the main White Zetsu and Black Zetsu having Wood Release, and later White Zetsu were further enhanced by Kabuto through Yamato. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:47, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:::* Mayfly moving through wood and roots is nice when you put it that way, but you forget he used it to move through solid rock, and concrete, both of which possess neither wood nor roots, so that cancels out any evidence you'd have there.
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:::This. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 15:57, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:::* The root communication technique is simply Zetsu manipulating his own body, and deals in plant matter, which Wood Release does not manipulate on its own.
 
:::* Again, Wood Release manipulates wood and trees. Trees don't produce spores, they grow from seeds, so again, there is no direct connection.
 
:::How do you know Zetsu isn't using techniques he developed with the help of his unique body? See how that creates problems and only leads to more speculation to prove and cover up the ''original'' speculation? You can't know any of that because nothing so far has explained that to us, so it is ''all'' specualtion. So, you cannot make a logical argument that would support it, at this point, without dipping into speculation, which we don't deal with here on the wiki. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:35, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Ten Tails, I will give you mayfly, but no other type of technique in canon has shown to interact with plant matter besides wood release.
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To clarify one thing, the White Zetsu (both the ones killed at the summit and the one that impersonated Neji) were said to have DNA similar to Yamato as well as Hashirama, so it is entirely possible that they, like Yamato, simply had Hashirama's DNA implanted in them, either intentionally by Madara or just as a result of being attached to the Hashirama-tree. The other questions this new origin creates are how the "White Zetsu Army" clones were created and why they regard one particular White Zetsu as the ''original'', despite the new explanation implying they must have come from the Mazo like the rest of the clones. Not to mention the clones seemingly created by the ''original's'' Spore Technique.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 16:29, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
* In terms of the communication being 'simply Zetsu manipulating his own body" How many times have we seen wood sprout from Yamato? Part of Wood Release is indeed growing stuff from oneself.
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:Nothing was implied about White Zetsu Army and Spore clones. Only the ones Madara created (White Zetsu, Guruguru, some other unnamed ones). White Zetsu Army and Spore clones should still be considered literal clones of White Zetsu, that also explains why they call him "original". [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 17:08, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
* As for wood release only manipulating wood and trees may I bring up
 
[[http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Advent_of_a_World_of_Flowering_Trees]]
 
and
 
[[http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Clone_Technique]]
 
   
Like I said, Mayfly I'll give you cause when I first heard of it I actually mistook it for the [[Attack Prevention Technique]], but the other two are almost certainly wood release. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 12:21, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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== Height ==
   
:Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure Fox mentioned something about trees growing flowers, hence the flowering world (if it wasn't him/her then I must have read it somewhere else) and I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the wood clone. The seeds? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:29, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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Since when has a black mass a definite height? I get that we add the Dojutsu and everything, since he used them. But how does he, as a black mass, share the same height as White Zetsu? And if we add White Zetsu's height because it's the same as the Dojutsu, then don't we have to add Obito's height, too? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:11, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
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:Well, in theory, his height could be that of his form when he is "Black Humanoid Figure", and I guess that would be listed in the future databook. But yeah, it's definitely not WZ or Obito's height. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 13:17, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
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::It's an oversight, simply remove it. As Faust stated, his "true" height is as he appeared when observing Hashirama defeat Madara--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:21, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
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:::But that's just one of the many forms he can take on. He maybe even coated another human at that time. How can freely formable mass have a definite height? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:27, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
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::::It's irrelevant atm. Just remove WZ height and close this question for now.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 13:29, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
   
The seeds are the very thing, though the image illustrates my point of wood users manipulating their own bodies quite well too. But while trees do grow flowers, the point of that technique, Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, is that it's the pollen used to attack. Now unless you're trying to tell me flowers and pollen are exclusive to trees and wood, I think it's obvious that Wood Release's sphere of influence extends into a wider realm of flora than just trees. Spores and seeds etc. are all viable. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 12:37, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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== Why ==
   
Why should Wood Release manipulate and create just wooden material? that makes no sense. Someone is forgetting that all trees are plants. The gas technique by Madara creates no wooden structure but a tree without wooden skin, it's a poisonous flower. So "it was tree not plant" argument is illogical Fox because trees are plants and the given technique created non-wood related plant even.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:06, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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Is this page locked? Also no techniques show up in the infoboxes--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:08, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
I understand what you mean but we haven't really seen a wood release user just create flora, ie. it has always been connected to a tree. I'm not saying they can't create a simple flower but that we haven't seen them actually do it. Simply saying Just cause they MIGHT be able to do it =/= we should put down that all wood release users can create a field of flowers. But this also goes with the main reason for this section, ie. Just cause Zetsu (a creation of wood release) can use Mayfly =/= Mayfly is a wood release jutsu. For all we know it could just be something that only Zetsu can use. I say we wait for a confirmation from the databook or manga before we call this. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 13:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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== Does this page really need to exist anymore? ==
   
Like I said, I'm not saying call Mayfly wood release because it does bear similarity to other similar techniques, but the communication technique, which is done via roots (which was certainly a tree root when he did it) is almost certainly a wood release. So Ten Tails argument that Plant Matter is somehow different from trees in this context is irrelevant and the idea that it's "simply" manipulating his own body is also irrelevant because we've seen several wood techniques do this. As for the spores, he said wood release manipulates trees and spores come from seeds, so there's not direct connection, but I showed that wood release can also operate flowers, pollen and seeds. So while Mayfly might be something else, the communication technique and the spore technique both share several traits with other documented wood release techniques. Might they be variations that only Zetsu uses, almost certainly, but we know the guy is a clone of Hashirama, so it's not like the other Ice Users we've seen where they don't hold the blood line, and I've already shown why the counter argument on the spores and communication techniques don't work, so at this point, even if they are just unique to Zetsu, these things seem to be genuine Wood Release and the only reason we don't seem to be stating this is out of pure stubbornness. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 14:07, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
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It's basically just the two articles for White/Black Zetsu combined into one. Do we really need the separate articles and this one? It's kind of unnecessary. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 00:51, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
:I have a doubt here, i don't remember so it's better if i ask someone to enlighten me, when Kabuto kidnapped Yamato, he mentioned that with Yamato he could improve the White Zetsu Army, because with Yamato's Hashirama cells they could use WR right? I'm not sure. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:38, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
::What are you getting at, how is it relevant? If you suggest that their wood release is only thanks to Yamato, then Black Zetsu says hello--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:45, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::No, it is only a curiosity of mine. Because if White Zetsu's clones could be made through White Zetsu and do not have WR, maybe Mayfly is not directly related with WR, being only a White Zetsu unique feature (black too) due his nature. My English is not the best but i will try to make my self clear. Zetsu origin from Hashirama's Bunshin cells (Wood), and using Yin-Yang chakra to give form and life through the Gedō Statue, he ended up being a plant-like form of life, gaining the abilities to conect with plant-life forms due is plant properties plus yin-yang chakra (Mayfly and derivatives). [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 15:05, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Interesting theory but it's only speculation (and people here are usually pretty hateful towards speculation). [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 15:15, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Because White Zetsu clones when exposed to Yang chakra, they turn into trees due Hashirama's Wood Bunshin cells, now mix that with Yin chakra, in a exact portion of both Yin and Yang-nature based chakra, you could get a plant (Zetsu), with a unique feature like mayfly. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 15:30, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
The amount of speculation that has gone rampant since I last posted only further proves my point. Until we have a definite answer, or some more ''<u>concrete</u>'' evidence, we should not touch anything and this proves why. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:50, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: Also, Hawkeye, on the Zetsu Communication Technique, where he's using his own body. His body ''is'' plant matter. He's pretty much a living venus fly trap. When you're body is structured like a plant, producing a root to communicate is just proof that his body can sprout roots. Not that he was, in anyway, using Earth and Water together to make a Wood technique. This is all beyond ludicrous. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:52, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
You're right, it is ludicrous. We're willing to list unnamed, non-defined techniques used by other characters under specific releases simply because of who the user is and what the properties of the technique are, but here we have Zetsu, who apparently we have to wait for him to be proven to rip off Hashirama before we'll admit his technique, which has all the hallmarks of being Wood Release, is an actual god damn wood release! Like I said, Mayfly we can't speak for, but the other techniques show traits of no other ability but wood release. It is nothing but pure pig headed stubbornness that we're not listing these abilities. If Zetsu's entire body is plant matter it's because he's born from Hashirama cells, the man is a walking wood release and while I will not say that's justification for all his techniques being wood release, the fact that the techniques I'm referring to show all the traits associated with this advance nature and not earth or water points to the refusal to add them not as caution against inaccurate material, but just being stubborn about it. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 17:30, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: First of all, watch your language. Second of all, I've looked at Madara, and all these "unnamed techniques" you claim we're just giving him and listing Wood Release, and I found none. Ziltch. Zero. Nodda. Nothing. So, you need to calm down. We aren't just going to fly off the wall and name everything Zetsu has Wood Release. Wouldn't do it for Yamato, Hashiarma, or Madara. Or anyone for that matter. You need proof. Not circumstantial evidence. Not a wish list. And certainly not your personal feelings and theories. If you can give, not just me, but everyone, cold, hard, ''real'', evidence that any of the techniques you listed are beyond a reasonable doubt, Wood Release, then let's see it, because I haven't heard a single shred of it yet. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:47, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Second of all @Hawkeye, he is not walking WR, he was created from a WR Bunshin with Yin-Yang release, this only proof he is a "Plant-Like" being and not a Wood clone or a Wood made, he isn't pinocchio, he can use Mokuton due to his nature, but he also has his unique traits. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 18:00, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Wow all three of you, take a chill pill...this is a discussion...it's meant to be discuss the topic, not tear at eachother...@Hawkeye there's no use in bad language, if you want to make a point, do it in an educated way. @Ten Tailed Fox, since this discussion started, you have not done any contribution to it, other than trying to stop it short. You say there is nothing in favor of this, yet there is nothing to deny it, and we've had several characters remarking about Zetsu's nature and connection to the WR. So unless ''you'' can present any cold, hard, ''real'' contradictory evidence to the claim of this discussion, it will continue as any discussion should be. Any other opinions from other users would also be helpful [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 21:34, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Why is there even harm listing them as wood release? We can always put there "may contain false information" notice--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:55, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
::The same harm as me putting Hinata as Naruto's Girlfriend and and saying may contain false information this site has always been about proof and we should wait tell kishamoto states otherwise [[User:BestKage|BestKage]] ([[User talk:BestKage|talk]]) 22:17, June 24, 2013 (UTC)Bestkage
 
:::Dude that comparison is soo cheap and wrong and has nothing to do with the topic being disscussed here. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:22, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Sorry for the pure comparison but what I was trying to say is that This site always wanted prove and hardcore evidence and by letting something like this slide this site might as well let other none proven topics be listed[[User:BestKage|BestKage]] ([[User talk:BestKage|talk]]) 22:39, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage
 
And just because something looks like something is not proof or otherwise we would have listed mud based justu as water and earth[[User:BestKage|BestKage]] ([[User talk:BestKage|talk]]) 22:46, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage
 
:Hum, and yet stuff like has been done...take the time and read the chapters that talk about the nature of Zetsu, the WR and it's bretheren army and maybe you'll see what i'm trying to get across. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:49, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
Isn't such a bad comparison, after all Naruto and Hinata were holding hands, that is couple behavior. The same goes for Naruto and Sakura, Minato asked if they were a couple and Naruto responded affirmatively. We should reach a agreement, at least wait for more clues pointing that they are WR based techniques. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 22:54, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Okay I read the articles and how wood release creates life which was wood/trees and floral and seeds and I am not saying that's all it does but as far as spore clones go they seem more like just growth or expansions of zetsu's body, choji grows and the mayfly is like what orochimaru (before he got WR) and Kiba's sensie did. I know she did it anime only but we didn't list that as WR. Too many things that are similar to zetsu's justu that are not WR. Lets just wait patiently tell it is proven.[[User:BestKage|BestKage]] ([[User talk:BestKage|talk]]) 23:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage
 
 
"Wouldn't do it for Yamato, Hashiarma, or Madara." ~ Ten Tailed Fox
 
 
Wasn't talking about Madara, who you seemed to take as the focus of my point, oh no, not him.
 
 
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Threefolded_Wood_Shield
 
 
Hmm, unnamed, anime only, never stated to actually be Wood Release, but used by Yamato and called a wood release by us because it has the traits of one.
 
 
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Mayfly_Communication_Technique
 
 
Unnamed, anime and manga technique, never stated to be Wood Release, but used by Zetsu, isn't called Wood Release despite having the traits of one.
 
 
Methinks there's some hypocrisy in this argument, but I'll be damned if I can find it. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 13:49, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
:There are some similarities and there's not. He is a plant, therefore he is able to create roots, there are two possible outcomes. 1: The ability to create roots could be a unique Zetsu's feature, nothing to do with WR. 2: He creates roots through WR, being a Wood Release technique. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:01, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Dude, you just agreed with what we've been debating. Here's why WR manipulates floral/wood material. You agreed that Zetsu's is a plant creature...aside from the fact he's a 100% WR creation...as such even if the techniques he uses are unique to him, they can still fall in the larger WR category due what it manipulates and Zetsu's unique nature. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 15:58, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Hypocrisy, bias and ignorance present on the internet could be used to feed many for years if they were digestible. It's indeed present even in here, but what can be done about that... everyone is free to have a difference of opinion. On topic; "mayfly communication technique" is clearly a Wood Release. I'm not so sure about Spore Technique. Also right hand obviously has no idea what the left one does, since even Zetsu's article considers it to be Mokutn since it's present under the nature transformation section.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:07, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Now looking back at some similar techniques and stuff, I came across with Obito's Wood Release Underground Roots Technique and Zetsu using it as well... So I'll have to admit that my thoughts were maybe wrong, and now I'm more into Mayfly Communication Technique being a WR-based technique. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 16:28, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: Wow... that's just about all I can say. This is getting, not only out of hand, but plain ridiculous. The problem with your theory, Hawkeye, is that we've never seen Wood Release manipulate plant matter on its own. Madara's [[Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees]] causes flowers to sprout ''from trees'', which would be manipulation of the trees themselves, therefore Wood Release. Also, if ''that'' is what you're so mad about (the Yamato technique you linked), then this argument is pretty much a done deal. If you actually watch the anime episode that technique appeared in, you can tell its wood, not only from its obvious coloration and features, but also by the way it forms and the sound effects used, which are the same for ''every Wood technique in the anime''. Now, let's put aside foolishness here. In the anime ''and'' the manga, when Zetsu uses his roots to communicate, it looks more like a flower root, when there is a [[Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique|wood technique]] that does virtually the same thing, yet they look ''nothing'' alike. Therein lies another misconception of yours. Zetsu isn't living Wood Release. He was made as a ''clone of Hashirama'' from Hashirama's DNA, which Madara grew from a giant flower. That doesn't make him Wood Release. In fact, he's more similar to a common daisy, than he is a tree. Manipulating your own body to communicate is never a given for a nature release.
 
 
: As to the spore clones ([[Spore Technique]], [[Parasite Clone]], etc), tell me, if they were Wood Release, wouldn't he just use [[Wood Clone Technique|wood clones]]? Why create his own type of cloning techniques if he could just use the Wood Release you claim he is already using to use an already established Wood Release technique? Or are you really trying to suggest that Kishimoto made ''two'' separate Wood Release cloning techniques that do virtually the same thing, just to make Zetsu a bit different? Logic and reason, and the facts frankly, that have been presented in the series so far, would suggest otherwise. But, from the tone of your argument, I see now that all you're doing is lashing out, calling names, and are no longer interested in simply providing evidence to back up your claims.
 
 
: I'll say it again. I don't really mind the techniques being Wood Release, ''if they're proven to be Wood Release''. That means you have to have a little more comparison and evidence than some technique Yamato did in the anime, which is absolutely nothing like the ones we are discussing here, and some strong feelings. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:13, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Again Fox, trees and flowers are plants. Flowers sprouting from trees actually supports that it's not just brown stuff that's being created using Mokuton. Logically, mixing Earth and Water would result in mud. That's why Mokuton is unique, it's been stated that the chakra is converted into source of life, that would explain why it's not mud but flora. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Mokuton to be crating just trees and not being able to create other types of plants, SINCE the sole fact it creates a type of plant in itself is extraordinary. Not to mention the giant lotus the Ten-Tails sat on, cultivated from Hashirama's cells is not a tree.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:29, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
"suggest that Kishimoto made ''two'' separate Wood Release cloning techniques that do virtually the same thing" ~ Ten Tailed Fox
 
 
Wow, and you're saying I'm just lashing out and not interested in providing evidence? How about to differentiate from normal wood clones not to give the game away as Zetsu's origin hadn't been explained at that point. That's an obvious answer for narrative sake, but to be more clear in story, wood clones don't drain chakra and don't take on the form of people other than the user.
 
 
And my example with Yamato isn't that it's not wood release, it is, it obviously is, it's the fact that we readily accept it as wood release and not mayfly communication that annoys me.
 
 
The evidence for this ability at least being wood release is blatant, but until another wood user uses it people won't accept it, but Yamato can use a wood technique and no one stops to say "Wait, maybe this isn't wood release" we just accept it, why isn't Zetsu given the same approach when we know he can use Wood Release? He communicates through a system of tree roots and people stop and wonder if it's a hiden technique when there is no other type of technique that matches its description. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 17:59, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Ok Fox, now i know you're a clever dude...so you making this difference between plants and trees is ridiculous on every possible level. Second, Zetsu and his army were reffered as plant creatures and as degenerated clones of the First Hokage that can use weaker versions of WR. Roots come from trees, flowers and plants can come from trees, spores can also come from the plants/flowers/trees. Plus the fact that the Zetsu army on it's whole has an identical set of skills. Thirs, you're telling that an army of 100.000 strong made from 100% from WR-converted cells of the First, which are stated to be both a life giving source and a way to manipulate plant life as an apparent whole, just happen to have some other way to do ''pretty much the exact same thing'' that the concept of WR does.
 
 
Hawkeye, take it easy, no need to aggressive atittude. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:44, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: I don't know why Hashirama's DNA in this argument is somehow synonymous of Wood Release. Yamato was used to strengthen Zetsu because he had Hashirama's cells within him, not to strengthen their Wood Release. In fact, Wood Release isn't even mentioned when Kabuto notes that he can strengthen them with Yamato. So drop that from your argument. I know that trees are plants, but you're not getting what I'm saying. Zetsu was grown from a flower, he has inherent traits of plants. We cannot differentiate what he can do with his body, and what he can do via Wood Release. We simply don't know where one stops and another begins. See what I mean? For example, lets look at [[Mayfly Communication Technique]] and compare it to another of Zetsu's actual wood techniques, [[Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique]];
 
 
:* First, note that both techniques involve the creation of roots from Zetsu's feet/lower areas.
 
:* Now note how differently they appear. In both the anime and manga, the Mayfly Communication roots seem to be part of Zetsu's body, hence they are white, while in the Underground Root Technique, they are clearly tree roots, which is why they are designated Wood Release.
 
 
: Why do I act as though trees and plant matter (flowers, spores, etc.) are a different case? Because, show me ONE example of a Wood Release technique that manipulates pre-existing plants ''other'' than trees. Can you give me one where a Wood Release technique created a flower ''from nothing'', or any other type of plant for that matter, other than a ''tree''? If you cannot, then you are speculating that Wood Release creates something other than trees. It is called '''Wood''' Release. To say that Wood Release can manipulate flowers, spores, or other types of plants other than trees ('''which bear wood on them''', being my WHOLE point), is like saying [[Blaze Release]] can manipulate all kinds of fire, rather than just those flames belonging to [[Amaterasu]]. Its still all fire release, but its only manipulating one aspect of that.
 
 
: Now, someone mentioned the life-creating aspects of Wood Release. Have you ever noticed that everything effected by the life giving properties of Wood Release becomes a tree? Zetsu when it transforms, is into a tree. Hashirama could only make trees. Yamato's creations were made from trees and tree wood. That is because Wood Release manipulates WOOD. Nothing else. Zetsu's plant-like attacks have ''ZERO'' traits of wood, and in the [[Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique|instances that they do look like wood]], we name them Wood Release. That is why those techniques (mayfly, communication, spore) need to await confirmation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:17, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Why is the First Hokage's DNA mentioned...gee maybe it's because of the extremely powerful, KKG that's so tied to it, that anyone else who has can turn into a tree if they can't control it. Danzo for one is good example. Also how the Zetsu's bodies have such a concentration of these KKG cells, that they turn into trees when exposed to Yang chakra. If that happens it's because of constitution of their bodies. Here's a comparison...when Naruto first gained the NTCM, the Yang chakra caused Yamato's Wood Jutsu to grow into full blown trees...same thing with the Zetsu clones...gee those two can't possibly be related can theY?
 
 
::Another detail...WR techniques are mostly created by manipulating the users body into plant material...even the underground roots Zetsu used, came from his body. Pretty much every single one of Zetsu's skills revolve around unique physical manipulations. I even went as far as to only mention three of the more ''obvious'' ones, cuz his cloning techniques have me doubting as well. Also another detail, Zetsu clones were reffered by Sakura and Madara as degraded clones with lesser abilities in WR...maybe the reason they can only do these ''lesser'', more plant-then-tree related feats is because of their inferior genetics?.
 
 
::You want an example? Besides the Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, that ''creates giant flowers with sleeping pollen''? Maybe the giant lotus plant Madara keeps on his basement from where all Zetsu come from, made from..."drum roll"...Hashirama's DNA. And one thing...by your theory, if WR only ''manipulated WOOD'' and not plants, then hell we wouldn't even see the Flowering Trees, the giant lotus, hell we wouldn't even see ''leaves'' on the trees created by it. After all ''only wood'' is being manipulated here. Plus your comparison of Blaze and Fire Release is a bad one. Amaterasu is stated as the highest point of Fire Release...Blaze Release is pretty much shape transformation of it to various effects, yet for all intents, it's pretty much a sub-style to Fire Release. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 21:13, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::* The giant flower Madara grew Zetsu out of was not as a result of a technique, but Hashirama's cells being grown in such a way. Not a viable example of Wood Release, hence, cannot be used as evidence.
 
:::* Advent of a World of Flowering Trees manipulates trees (made of wood) to sprout flowers. That isn't an example of Wood Release creating flowers from nothing.
 
:::* You're only proving my points on Zetsu's body, and why we can't distinguish between actual Wood Release and just body manipulation, so that's just a no go there.
 
:::* Sakura only said they were clones of the First (Hashirama). She said nothing about their Wood Release techniques, more specifically, nothing about any of the techniques we are debating here.
 
:::* Last but not least, the entire first paragraph you wrote proves my point about Wood Release being only wood manipulation, and how it ties into Hashirama's cells.
 
::: Also, Blaze Release ''was'' a bad example, but the best one that's available. Blaze Release manipulates Amaterasu, which is a sub-group of Fire. Wood Release manipulates Wood, specifically trees, which is a sub-grouping of plants, but not plants in its entirety. They are similar if you think about it in that regards. Either way, you continually prove my point about speculation, which is the reason why we can't make the changes in the first place. None of this stuff even matters in the end, because it all comes down to what we can '''PROVE''' from the manga material itself. The rest is speculation, which we don't enter into our decisions. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:19, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::::The giant flower made from the DNA of a guy who has the genetic ability to manipulate plant/wood-based material is not valid as an evidence? And the Advent Technique doesn't count as well, despite us seeing it sprout giant flowers? We've seen the flowers and the pollen from Madara's technique, hell even the original Wood Clone can produce ''seeds'', another plant lifeform. It doesn't matter if it comes from a tree, or from the depths of the user's nether regions, if it can be used, it's not just wood manipulation.
 
 
::::If Hashirama did not possess the KKG that he did, you actually believe that Madara managed to grow a ''giant lotus flower'' from his DNA, if he had say, the Lava Release? Hell, if Madara had somehow used the First's DNA to create a volcano, and the Zetsu' clones were made from molten lava instead of plants, no one would have the doubts that their techniques would be Lava Release, soo why the resistance here? Because Zetsus abilities are more plant, than tree based? Last time i checked, trees are a part of plants, need earth and water and sunlight all the same to grow.
 
 
::::By that train of thought, we'd have to make separate nature transformation articles for the Lava Release, due to the different volcanic elements they manipulate (molten rock, lava, quicklime, vulcanised rubber), or simply disregard them at all as it's being done here. I'm sorry dude but by now you are just giving an extremely narrow and biased opinion, based on bad examples and ignoring extremely basic, all-encopassing concepts, to the point where your opinion becomes illogical and you throw the speculation label on the rest of us? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:04, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Offtopic, but can people stop saying that it's Yang chakra that affects the WR? It's been stated to be thanks to life force that Naruto's chakra gives off while in mode. We don't know in the slightest what "yang chakra" is, so [[Yang Release]] is wrong as is, but that's another long ignored part of narutopedia's ancient chronicle...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:26, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
"Now note how differently they appear. In both the anime and manga, the Mayfly Communication roots seem to be '''part of Zetsu's body''', hence they are white, while in the Underground Root Technique, they are '''clearly tree roots''', which is why they are designated Wood Release." ~ Ten Tailed Fox
 
 
... That's honestly what you're going with? I'll admit since this debate has started my conviction towards the spore clones has wavered enough to no longer fight for it, just wait for it to be confirmed, but your entire point is that the roots that stem from the white part of Zetsu's body are white instead of being wood like like his underground root technique is your entire basis for argument, when the white, body coloured root connects to an entire system of very much wood coloured tree roots. I get the idea that the white root projects from his body and so do the Underground roots he uses in combat, so maybe your point is if it were wood release they should be more shaded too, but ignoring the more realistic arguments for why it could be a different colour, the very fact that it then connects and communicates through an entire system of actual tree roots, a form of communication not used by anyone else, nothing similar used by anyone in the entire series, every one has radios and telepathy, a system that is reliant on an entire network of real wooden roots, is not wood release.
 
 
I honestly don't mean to sound mocking, I'm really trying to clarify if your position on this not being wood release is hinged on the root colour coming out of Zetsu's leg instead of the fact that he then uses it to send a message through a literally inter-country spanning system of wood. Unless that white, zetsu coloured root is connecting to that real tree root for no purpose and we just got an abridged version of him spreading it all the way to Obito's base to talk to white Zetsu, real wood is involved. He may not have created it himself, but he manipulated. How is this not wood release? --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 00:12, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== fingernails ==
 
 
Can anyone provide an instance from manga where Zetsu is shown not having them?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:08, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
:I don't think you'll find one where he does. I don't recall him ever having finger or toenails at all.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:45, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Really? I do quite as the very opposite, I can't find one where he doesn't. Look at "mayfly communication technique" in manga, you can clearly see nails. Same goes when Sasuke kills White Zetsu, he has nails there too, that's why I brought the topic up since the article mentions their absence for some reason--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:09, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::He does in fact have toenails visible during the communication. I don't see any when Sasuke ''kills'' White Zetsu. Most of the time they aren't depicted with nails at all. But those instances are usually when there is no focus on that body part unlike the communication technique.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:55, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::When he got pierced with Sasuke's sword to the wall, the edges of his fingers look like nails to me. One way or another, he has them. It's like saying Izuna has no nose since he was often depicted with lack of detail in flashbacks.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:14, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 00:51, August 30, 2014

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See also: Talk:White Zetsu and Talk:Black Zetsu

Dojutsu in ZetsuEdit

I was doing some re-reading on the past chapters and i noticed that in chapter 665(page 2), Zetsu was detaching himself from Obito and while coming off, still had the Rinnegan with him. This caused me to think that Zetsu was in possession of the Rinnegan and that he currently is in possession of the sharingan, despite still being attached to Obito. The thing that most supports my belief is that Obito is dead, all while BZetsu remains able to use Kamui.EDIT: In the most recent chapter 676, this would also mean that Obito left sharingan was actually implanted into Zetsu instead, of Obito's dead body.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 07:28, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

This is a bit weird. Technically, Zetsu is being "worn" by Obito, who appears to be dead (let's see how long that lasts). Obito isn't conscious, he's been controlled. I'm not sure that Zetsu trying to leave Obito before counts as him having the Rinnegan, as Obito was still in control, even forcing Zetsu to remain attached. With the Sharingan though, things seem murkier. It appears that Zetsu used Obito to Kamui out of the dimension. The closest situation regarding possession and use of kekkei genkai by another I can compare this to is Sasori with the Third Kazekage puppet. Zetsu definitely used Kamui, but he doesn't possess the Rinnegan. In my opinion, BZ's possession is a true body snatching, like say, Orochimaru's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:14, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
I don't follow your logic Omni about how BZ isn't a Kamui user tho. He isn't a Mokuton user then either, because to do that, he has to be "worn" by a WZ or his clones--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
Right. Zetsu could only use mokuton due to being attached to WZ. But about the Rinnegan, it's nearly impossible to say that he did have the rinnegan as it was connected to his gooey head as he was detaching himself from Obito. As for Kamui, he should be listed as a user of both sharingan and the technique. 1) b/c of mokuton example and 2) I would think because that eye was actually open and in use, while the other wasnt.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 21:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
Did you read my comment right? I'm comparing the situation to Sasori and his use of Magnet Release through a medium that has it. I agree that Zetsu used Kamui, but I'm against listing him as a Sharingan user. He was using Obito to cast it, much like Sasori used the Kazekage puppet to use Iron Sand techniques. If BZ and WZ were to have split articles, I'd be against listing BZ as a Mokuton user, since he's only done so while attached to WZ mass. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:56, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh, excuse me but im leaving out some important detail in my argument. What i really want to emphasize on is the fact that Zetsu had the rinnegan attached to him as he was leaving Obito's body. It's that the eye was coming off with Zetsu as he was leaving. And, in that one picture, the eye was literally detached from Obito. Its this single piece of evidence that I say that he's a bit more of a user of the Rinnegan and the Sharingan than Sasori is the magnet release. But, it's easy to see where one would counter-argue with "Zetsu is still attached to Obito". But we've seen the difference between Zetsu using the Kamui (literally on his own) vs. Zetsu forcing Obito to use Rinne Rebirth.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, which raises question why isn't Sasori considered a user in the first place. A user is someone who has used something intentionally. BZ's case is not that much different from Orochimaru's soul possession now that Obito is out of the game. In a theoretical situation in which Orochimaru would gain Sasuke's body, he will not have been considered a Sharingan user, 'cause he be using other body according to you. It's as clear as day, Obito is unconscious, BZ used Kamui, means he knows how to do it and has done so.--Elveonora (talk) 22:48, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Eleve, though I do see where you're coming from, Omni. Even so, Sharingan is the medium through which Kamui is used. If Black Zetsu used Kamui (which he did), then he used a Mangekyō Sharingan too. Black Zetsu is a very odd case (jinchūriki; Mangekyō Sharingan; etc), but he is a user regardless. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Elveo, Fox-Boss, I'm glad you two agree.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 01:13, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Huh. I don't quite oppose that sort of change in priciple, but it strikes me as very odd. It also puts some other possible scenarios in a weird situation. For example, if a Yamanaka Mind Body Switches someone. Is Santa a Lightning Release, Lightning Cutter user and MS/Sharingan wielder over having piloted Kakashi through the mist against Zabuza? If Ino takes over a kekkei genkai user and performs a kekkei genkai jutsu, does she get listed as a user. Does her diversion of Obito's Mokuton through the Ten-Tails earlier in the battle means she's a Mokuton user? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:26, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
Well No. That point is null. When Santa used MBS on Kakashi, he had already activated the Raikiri and the point of him switching places with Kakashi was so that he could use his sensory abilities to guide Kakashi through Zabuza's mist, which negated Kakashi's Sharingan. And no again, b/c Ino only manipulated Obito to change the Tentails aim. All-in-all, none of those points have any place here. But i do, however, understand what you meant by your argument. And the point is still left null. It's only b/c Zetsu is almost entirely in a different boat here. He literally has the eye implanted into him. I think you are confusing the fact that Zetsu is attached to Obito, with him being able to use the sharingan despite still being attached to him. He obviously doesnt need to be witnessed by him attempting to leave Obito's body (while taking the Rinnegan with him as 665, page 2 clearly shows) and him being attached to a mass of WZ and using Wood Release (an not connected to a live and sentient part of WZ). --KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 05:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

I hope necessary changes will be made accordingly asap. For Sasori, are human puppets conscious? If not, then Sasori should be listed as Magnet Release user imo, since the puppets act more or less as extensions of the puppeteer's body--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

My reluctance to add Sasori as a Magnet Release user is because listing him as such sort of implies that he possesses Magnet Release. It's almost like saying he's in the same situation as Yamato, except his use of Magnet Release is tool-based. We decided not to consider Tenten and KinGin as users of each of the five natures because they were being achieved through the fan. The situation is pretty much the same here. Are we simply going to revert the decision regarding the fan? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's not like that hasnt been done before. We have. Alot. Look at Guruguru(and i use his example very loosely) or Raiga and Ameyuri Ringo (lightning release). Each of these characters use a tool or another independent source of which they are accredited the corresponding chakra. By the rule that you are saying that is implied, neither of their pages should reflect the tool's "nature". EDIT: There are other examples in Hoki and Seimei.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 17:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Raiga and Ameyuri both had at least one Lightning Release technique that didn't involve the swords Rock Avalanche and Lightning Release: Depth Charge. What about Guruguru? The statue is a technique, not a tool. It's like Obito's use of Wood Release: Cutting Technique through the Ten-Tails. Regarding the Takumi shinobi, I haven't watched that filler in a long time, but wasn't the point of those swords that they minimized the chakra used by their wielders? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
The hypocrisy... that's not addressed to you Omni, I'm speaking generally... but people pick and choose as they see fit. So Naruto IS to be considered a user of Lava and Magnet (and composing natures) according to you guys, yet Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user by the same merit. Great consistency indeed. We either remove Naruto's borrowed natures completely or we list borrowed natures and techniques for everyone. Decide now--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
You've been told the problem with that reasoning enough times already, mostly by Ten-Tailed Fox, so I'll make no effort repeating him here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
Whatever I was told likely didn't make any sense, although I'd like to hear it once more before I accuse anyone of fallacies again.--Elveonora (talk) 17:48, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
Now, lets not get into the Naruto chakra nature incident. Like I said earlier, Black Zetsu's case is different, much like Naruto's, in that he isn't using a tool. He literally is assimilating the abilities of the individual he's occupying.EDIT: After much review, i've reaized that this is much more like Orochimaru's (and his WZ possession) case than any of the others. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 23:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Kinda knew this topic would be left unresolved like 97% of all the others. =/ Seems valid when I say that this joined the statistic and was successfully bumped. Any objections? -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 21:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. I still don't see how Zetsu using it through Obito is any different from Sasori using Magnet Release through a puppet, Tenten and Kinkaku using Wind Release and Fire Release through Bashōsen, and Raiga and Ameyuri using Lightning Release through Kiba swords. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:50, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
So if I put a gun into your hand and make you shoot with my psychic power, you will be the murderer, not me, because it was your hand holding it? Everything Obito does atm is controlled by BZ. BZ using Kamui with Obito's body isn't any different than Kurama doing stuff through Naruto, so no double standards please--Elveonora (talk) 22:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Have you understood what I'm arguing for? By all means, list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add Sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it. Are the other examples I brought up so hard to comprehend? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:49, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, it's not hard to understand at all. I mean i get what youre saying. It's just that he does have a Sharingan. It's implanted on his side. Look at the Chapter page i referred to you guys at the top. It clearly shows that the Black Mass that is BZ has the Rinnegan. It could not have gone that far from Obito's face if it didn't have custody of it already. It's the same case as the Left Sharingan now. I'm not saying list him as a Sharingan user solely due to him using kamui. But because the Sharingan is literally implanted within him. I hope you get what I'm saying now. --KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 23:21, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
The Rinnegan I can see your point, even if Obito was strong enough to prevent BZ from leaving, but the Sharingan as far as we know is implanted in Obito, Zetsu is only "driving" Obito. The fact we can see it over BZ just means we can see it being used, since non-phasing Kamui means getting stuff in and out through the eye. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:31, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
I take it that you agree that he had temporarily had the rinnegan and should and listed? Your comment kind of confused me about the Left Eye Sharingan. I cant tell if you agree about that or not. But I am overall glad youre seeing my point. If you read between the lines, you'll see that the fact that the left eye is open clearly means that it's literally Zetsu's now. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 23:40, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, "list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it" great, so we will do and as such so should we remove the natures from Naruto's infobox then, because despite him being in control while having used the 'gans, the natures weren't his ;) just like Obito's eye ain't BZ's--Elveonora (talk) 11:17, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora The Tailed Beasts, their chakra is inside him, it's his to use. When Zetsu seals Obito inside himself, then your point will hold. @Koto Senju, yes, Rinnegan I agree. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:24, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
Yea Elveo. The tailed beast are on a whole different spectrum of what we're addressing here. Not very relevant. @Omni, why don't agree on him having Sharingan, but agree to add him as a user of Kamui. Doesnt make sense to have it w/o the Sharingan listed. My whole reasoning for bringing up the Rinnegan is to point out that yes, he was temporarily a user of the Rinne, but also that it's the same for Obito's left eye. Just like the Rinnegan, Obito's left Sharingan is also Zetsu's. This is not just b/c he's occupying Obito's body, but because the eye is literally in the the black goop that is Black Zetsu. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 17:50, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
@Omni, again this weird non-existent and irrelevant positional requirement "logic" which I don't get at all, but I'm gonna leave it be...--Elveonora (talk) 17:55, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
TheUltimate3 has arrived. Zetsu used Kamui and Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan while through Obito, he gets listed. Hurray.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:41, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
*Fan boy reaction* You're my hero! Edit: how would one go about the wording. "BZ tole blah blah blah and used blah?" -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, I love you, this time :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Grass Headband Edit

If you look at it closely it couldn't have been a mistake and in many different manga images it is clear that he has a headband on his chest. not to mention he was in kusagakure with madara and made their. it is also possible to see the rogue cut through the village symbol on his headband. it should at least be added as trivia. if you want to see the headband then look on page 196 of the third data book. look at zetsu's chest. its right there. you can also see part of it when he comes out of the ground to chat with hidan after his ritual. from all of this i think its not possible for you guys to label it as bull shit anymore. Munchvtec (talk) 13:43, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

I can't see a headband at all. Norleon (talk) 15:59, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Zetsu/Archive_1#Kusagakure?, Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#hugh!, Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#homeplace and Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#Contradiction. Find your answer there. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 16:08, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

I can see that as a headband but this was before the whole Zetsu is a plant clone of Hashirama thing. Kishi probably didn't think of that till Madara became more prominent in the story. Even so you can't tell what is on the supposed headband, for all we know it's blank. My sources are the volumes and databook I own. --Narutofox94 (talk) 17:42, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

It should be added in trivia at least. Munchvtec (talk) 15:20, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

It's speculation, so no. Norleon (talk) 16:49, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

Not if it was seen which it was.Munchvtec (talk) 01:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, fans debate if it really was a headband or not, since 2010. I can't see any headband at all, neither in the databook nor when he emerges during Hidan's ritual. If others can see it, they are free to provide the proof, like highlighting the headband via paint or whatnot...Norleon (talk) 10:32, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

In the third data book on his profile page. look at his full body image. now look for a small opening in the venus fly trap-like things and you will see it. i believe in an older talk page discussion on zetsus page a user even had a pic of it in close up if you want to check that out. Munchvtec (talk) 15:31, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Its in archive two in the discussion called hugh! a user provides a high quality link image to it. Munchvtec (talk) 15:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I observed these images as well. Still, I don't see a headband. I honestly can't even imagine how people tell themselves they see one there.
A few facts why I believe this whole discussion is redundant:
  • 1. If Kishimoto would have gone through the "trouble" to draw him an own headband, why would he suddenly stop doing so? Never again did we see something there, right?
  • 2. Considering Zetsu's whole background story, it would not make any sense for him to come from Kusagakure as he never had anything in common with that village. We don't list Madara as a Kusagakure shinobi either, just because he spend decades of his life there, staring at Hashirama's clone, do we?
  • 3. Since you bring up the databook so often...if Kishimoto wanted to make Zetsu a Kusagakure shinobi, he would definitively list him as such in his databooks. With one-hundred percent certainty. But he never did so. I am looking at Zetsu's article in the Sha no Sho right now. The image you are using as proof is right there, yet his little box on top of the page that tells about the village of origin is empty.
If that isn't enough to convince you, I won't be able to help you any further here. Norleon (talk) 16:21, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Split Edit

So, can we separate White and Black Zetsus' page now, at last? Chapter 678 further proved they have nothing to do with each other, neither regarding creation, nor the way they "function". Black Zetsu is a parasitic symbiont that can exist on any body, control it and use its powers. He did so with original White Zetsu, but also on several other occasions. There weren't really any firm arguments for them staying together for a long time except for some people stubbornness. All we need to do is to gather more opinions of more people with common sense.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:23, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, they should've been split long ago. Yes, I am entirely in support of splitting them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:27, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
I agree, the two halves are way too different in nearly every regard to be on the same page. Kamikaze839 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
678 definitely supports this. Good luck to anyone trying to argue this. --KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 05:43, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead for me. Seems this chapter confirmed that the Black Zetsu has different personality and abilities from the White Zetsu. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 05:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Please give me the ok to go ahead and start this. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 05:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Please add that Black Zetsu is the will of Kaguya NOT Madara, as recently revealed in this chapter 05:54, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Kamui

No. You know the process around here. There are others that have to weigh in. Wait. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:12, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, about time it should be split --Kasan94 (talk) 06:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and split it. I put tabs of both new articles into this page so that links to Zetsu will still mostly work. If the tabs end up having bad side effects, then some other solution will need to be thought up. ~SnapperTo 07:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Works for me. Though we should change main picture of WZ to something from the times of Obito's rehabilitation. Also, Guruguru and Hashirama should be removed from BZ infobox (somehow I can't edit it myself?!), and maybe Kaguya should be added.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Wouldn't a simple disambiguation page be enough? Could add Guruguru and the White Zetsu Army (as links) to that disambiguation, since they have all been referred to as "Zetsu". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
I was going to do that, but this a) seems less frustrating from a reader's perspective, and b) spares people's obsessive need to update redirects. I've put a {{see also}} up top for the other Zetsus. ~SnapperTo 07:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well I'm less than pleased to wake up and see this. Is there a way to preserve the old image of Zetsu at least? Most of the pictures I've seem of them together is far enough you don't get a good shot of black/white face.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 08:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
There is still a chance we'll find a picture with a closer face of WZ. Regarding BZ - he has no face at all, he is just a black mass that takes form only covering someone else's body. I think his picture should be changed to that once the anime catch up to the chapter his real look was demonstrated in.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about an image of them in one body. The headshot in the original infobox.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 08:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a technical issue. Original Zetsu page doesn't have any content of its own, it only shows separate WZ and BZ pages, thus their infoboxes. I'm not sure if we can add independent infobox here, nor that I think it's really needed.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think it took way too long to finally split this page. And why do we really need that tabbed info there? Why not just make this a disambiguation page, with Guruguru and White Zetsu Army as part of the list? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 01:21, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Not a Mangekyo user Edit

Just because he can use it while controlling Obito doesn't make it his. Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user, for example. --Mandon (talk) 05:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Nope not going through this again. Read the sections above. Debate settled.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 05:39, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
^ This. He is in control of Obito's body, and initiated Kamui. He is a user same as Naruto is a Tailed Beast Ball user when in control of Kurama's power. This discussion has already been had and is solved.~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

You're current argument basically states that we should have Sasori listed as a user of Magnet release Officialkamuiblade (talk) Kamui

<edit: since someone thought they'd be a cute little troll and edit my message like a five year old> No. Not happening again. This argument was done and resolved. Its not the same so leave it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:15, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
I absolutely L-O-V-E how people act like their opinions about rehashed arguments matter more if they keep beating on the dead horse. Seriously? Your opinions matter of course, but unless you do as advised and read the topic like two sections above, then your words have little credibility.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 06:35, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well, in my honest opinion Sasori should be listed as Magnet user, too--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
He won't until I see him using it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:45, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
Well, his chakra strings were moving the puppet which had it, so shrugs. A non-conscious piece of wood can hardly be considered to be the user in such a case imo--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Tabs or no tabs Edit

Rather than continue this through edit summaries, please discuss it here.

To repeat my earlier points:

  1. Tabs are less frustrating from a reader's perspective, as they will not end up clicking a link that takes them to a page that just gives them another link to click.
  2. Spares people's obsessive need to update redirects, because how do you refer to Zetsu before chapter 45X? [[Black Zetsu|Zet]][[White Zetsu|su]] all over the place?

TTF says using tabs just repeats information, but what's wrong with that? It's not as though information is being copy and pasted from the individual articles to this one.

Anyway, please discuss. ~SnapperTo 20:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I say it defeats the purpose of the split. "Zetsu", as a term, refers not only to White and Black Zetsu (which the tabber system makes central), but to all artificial humans created by Madara from Hashirama's DNA. It was originally used to describe the merged form of White and Black Zetsu (reflected in my edit), but now applies to them all. It doesn't make any logical sense to me to have three articles with the exact same content, when the purpose of the split was to illustrate how radically different the two of them are in both personality, abilities, and purpose. With the tabber system, all that has been done is splitting the two halves into different articles and then remerging them on one page.
With a disambiguation page, like I did, you mention the fact that White and Black Zetsu were the origin of the term, but it now applies to all artificial humans, and then you can link to all occurrences of the term "Zetsu". Just makes more sense to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 20:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
The marginalization of the other Zetsus is expected, inevitable, and consistent with other pages. When some name is shared between multiple pages, one of those pages needs to take preference. In this case that preference is given to the first Zetsus seen in the series and the ones that have made the most contributions.
The purpose of the split, to my understanding, was to make it easier to distinguish one Zetsu from another. Tabs do not diminish this. If the split is to make each half wholly unique, that isn't going to happen considering how long they're together; seriously, 1/3 to 1/2 of both articles are verbatim copies of each other.
And I really think the two points I made are far more important. Wanting to do "justice" to the topic(s) is a fine thing, but if that makes it more difficult for the people who actually use the site, readers and users alike, then to hell with justice. ~SnapperTo 21:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
I fail to see how having to click a link to Black and White Zetsu (which by the way, are established as different characters) makes it harder on them. In fact, does it not make it easier on our readers to have all references to all Zetsu in one place? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
I can make the same arguments. How does having to click a link to Guruguru and White Zetsu Army make it harder? Does it not make it easier to have both articles tabbed in one place?
Guruguru and White Zetsu Army have always been separate Zetsu since the moment of their introduction. Black and White were the only Zetsu and, from a reader's perspective, the same Zetsu for a very long time. 9/10 searches for "Zetsu" are going to intend Black, White, or both, and therefore they should be the focus of Zetsu.
Would it be an improvement for you if the see also at the top were more detailed? ~SnapperTo 23:07, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, yes. That would be a fair enough concession. I admit, your points are fair. Just seems a bit redundant to me to have split them, and then still have them united on this page. So yes, if there is a bit more detailed of a See also section, that'd be fair enough for me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 23:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's incredibly redundant and sloppy to have an article for each half and then simultaneously have the original Zetsu page contain the exact same information. What's the point of separate articles if we're just going to turn Zetsu's page into a cluster containing both articles? Besides, the Zetsu article should be about the complete character, especially considering Black/White Zetsu spend the majority of the series together so what we have is both tabs being largely word for word until the very latest arcss. --Mandon (talk) 20:20, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

May I interject? Well, I've seen this on other wikis: White Zetsu Army/White Zetsu and White Zetsu Army/Black. Maybe an idea? --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

I see no need for the tabber system here. After all, if we are going to do tabs, then why not just never split the page into two? We can just turn this into a disambiguation. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 01:55, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this. Let them be their own stand alone articles, and the Zetsu page be a disambiguation that links to WZ, BZ, Guruguru, and the army. "Demons run when a good man goes to war." (talk) 03:14, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
Thank God I'm not the only one. Anyone else? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:11, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
The tabs are unnecessary. Plus, it's messing the infobox too. ~IndxcvNovelist talkcontribswatty 07:18, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
No opinion. I didn't want the article split at all.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:01, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
Do you at least agree that there needed to be some cleaner way of dividing one Zetsu's actions from the other's?
And what, IndxcvNovelist, is wrong with the infoboxes? ~SnapperTo 17:30, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
I think that, like Indx, the jutsu section is missing. Also, i too favor completely splitting the articles. However, i don't think redundancy is the issue here. Their simply two characters who were explored in the series at the same time. There's no way around that. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if they weren't so major, but they are. That's just a coincidence. --KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 21:50, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
It's absolutely repetitive to have the Black and White Zetsu pages, and then again here. Either just keep the two split pages and turn this into a disambiguation, or return them into one page, no split whatsoever. This "compromise" we are at is totally redundant. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 00:10, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
I find it funny that, despite us being here before, that some of you think that the redundancy is the issue. It's true that it's key in deciding what to do, but it's not the point. It's really not. We've done this before. We're not new to the practice. There are a few examples i could think of off the top of my head. Think of this less as a complication, but more as a coincidence. --KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 00:45, May 31, 2014 (UTC)

How is redundancy not the issue here? There are 4 articles right now… that needs to be addresses now. Why not leave the tabs — hats off to the person who did it — it sedated both sides that want/don't want the articles should be split. That's my 2 cents at least.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 00:49, May 31, 2014 (UTC)

Even if that were to be done, the method would be the same. Maybe the separate pages would be named Zetsu/Black and Zetsu/White instead, but there would still be a necessary separateness in order to produce the current effect. That's admittedly not entirely true; you could have two versions of the article stored in the same page, but that's messier to work with. ~SnapperTo 04:00, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry bout that. Wasn't near a computer again since I left work. Anyway, yeah I haven't a clue how to make this not messy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 10:27, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
It's simple isn't it? We make up our minds on whether we want two separate articles or have both articles merged into one. We can't have it both ways. --Mandon (talk) 08:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
Why can't we? We have ten chapter articles in one volume article; things seem to function alright there. ~SnapperTo 08:30, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

That's different. We're talking about four articles for one character.. obviously something's amiss here. It's messy and pointless and it serves no purpose at all. --Mandon (talk) 19:29, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Tabs are unnecessary. Turn this into a disambiguation. Faust-RSI (talk) 19:45, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Bump. Why are we even splitting the Zetsu into Black and White if we are just gonna tab them like this? There are three characters, plus an army of 100,000 bearing the name "Zetsu", it makes no sense not to use this is as a simple disambiguation. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 04:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

So what now? Edit

Cause yeah. Looks like Madara ain't do crap.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 07:47, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

He did. He imitated Kaguya when he made them. He did read the tablet, remember. Also, can we finally agree that the Shinju (and Kaguya) have wood release? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:51, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

The Shinju does not have Wood Release. Nor does Kaguya. Madara imitated Kaguya and used the cultivated cells of Hashirama to created his own White Zetsu. Kaguya did it with Infinite Tsukuyomi. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 08:10, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
You sound so sure of yourself. What ur basically saying is that there are 2 different kinds of White Zetsu that just happen to look identically. Although I'm wondering, since women and non-human animals were trapped too, does that mean they would turn into a male/human WZ? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 10:43, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
I think you guys went way off what I was getting at.
This chapter implies that the original Zetsus were the original brain child of Kaguya. So wtf does that mean for well...Zetsu?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:34, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
Try to be more concrete, I don't get what you are getting at--Elveonora (talk) 14:03, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, something stumbled upon my mind. God: Nativity of a World of Trees actually explains why Madara's Zetsu look nothing like Hashirama despite having almost identical DNA as him. All "zetsu'd" people gain the same appearance.--Elveonora (talk) 16:23, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Basically the implications of this chapter is that all Zetsu were made through God: Nativity of a World of Trees]], to be Kaguya's soldiers. Which means either Madara didn't actually make Zetsu he just found them or Kaguya is really good with playing with toys she had never seen before.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:26, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
Nah, we are 100% positive that Madara and Obito made their own WZ. Although it's more than probable that White Zetsu actually already was there somewhere (explaining why he was called an original by others) and Madara simply made Hash-enhanced replicas of him. If this is true, then WZ was a leftover Zetsu from centuries ago--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

back to the talk about him being a grass ninja. sooo sense he was there before all this then its possible that he did become a grass ninja and its not speculation right? Munchvtec (talk) 16:36, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Grass Village didn't exist back then. So unless he decided to become a Grass ninja later in his life before Madara found him, not really--Elveonora (talk) 16:41, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

So we've now been given a number of origin stories for White Zetsu:

  • Obito: Grown from the Hashirama-clone-tree using stored tailed beast chakra.
  • Sakura: Clones made from Hashirama's DNA using plants as a medium.
  • Madara: Grown from the Hashirama-clone-tree using the Mazo's own chakra and Yin-Yang Release.
  • Black Zetsu: Victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi assimilated by the Shinju's life force.

They all fit together, more or less: Infinite Tsukuyomi victims + Shinju/Mazo/tailed beast chakra + connection to the Shinju/Hashirama-tree + Yin-Yang Release (?) = White Zetsu. We shouldn't claim to know whether Madara/Obito's White Zetsu were created with human victims or not until it's confirmed. Whose to say Madara didn't attach people to his Shinju knock-off after using his Sharingan-based Infinite Tsukuyomi knockoff?--BeyondRed (talk) 18:22, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

The way I understand it, Kaguya at one point used the technique, but though BZ says becoming a WZ is what happens once you're in IT too long, I don't see confirmation this actually happened at that time. Hagoromo made no mention of them or anything similar when he spoke to Naruto. If she did, she kept them well hidden and they remained so for a long time. Madara probably developed them or discovered them by experimenting with the statue after getting the Rinnegan in his old age, this is when Hashirama cells got involved in the mix. This is the main WZ we know came to be. Obito later using that White Zetsu as a template used the tailed beast chakra to make more, that were further enhanced by Kabuto. This is how I can account for all we know so far. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:50, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Too many speculations there from just one BZ's line. His line wasn't referring to the past events, he just described what WILL happen to the victims of IT. That doesn't mean it already happened in the past or that White Zetsu is a being of several thousands years old accidentally found by Madara. That's all fan-made. All we know, there are actually 4 types of Zetsus:

  1. Madara's, that are made from Hashi's DNA (which grew into Hashi's clone and a small version of God Tree with Lotus flower), using Gedo Mazou as catalyst, i.e. it means Madara's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+GM chakra
  2. Obito's, that are similar to Madara's, but are an enhanced version of them, i.e. Obito's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+Yamato's DNA+GM chakra+7 bijuus' chakra (!).
  3. Original White Zetsu's parasite clones - actual living beings made with a jutsu (like power of creation!).
  4. Kaguya's, that are made from actual people chakra (and maybe bodies?)+God Tree.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

He obviously was talking about the past, he ain't no oracle. Don't try to twist things in an attempt to avoid what we are being told.--Elveonora (talk) 20:24, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Then enlighten me, because you are the one twisting things here. Faust-RSI (talk) 05:24, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Elve. Like I said in the forums. We now have multiple different ways to make White Zetsu. Don't forget, Sakura and the Medical Corps proved through DNA testing that the White Zetsu Army were clones of Hashirama Senju and possessed his Wood Release. Madara and Obito both cultivated Hashirama's cells to make theirs. Kaguya uses the Infinite Tsukuyomi to make hers. I'll use the analogy again; there are a lot of different ways to cook a turkey. Its still a turkey in the end. Same logic applies here. There are a lot of different ways to make White Zetsu and it still be White Zetsu. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:42, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
I can't see how you agree with Elve and disagree with me, when I myself described essentialy the same methods to produce a zetsu. We didn't even discuss this topic with her. All we talked about wer past and future, i.e. if BZ described what happened in the past (Elve), or only described general process plus what will happen in the future (me).Faust-RSI (talk) 08:32, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
@Foxie, the Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't what turns them into WZ, that's just a genjutsu (seemingly) designed to grant them a peaceful death, because Kaguya obviously is a philanthropist. God: Nativity of a World of Trees transforms them into WZ. The IF is a Matrix so to speak. They are projected imagery of a perfect world full of happiness, unaware that they are dying. @Faust, it already happened in the past. Remember, it was Madara who cast God: Nativity of a World of Trees so for BZ and Kaguya to know its effect, she must have done the same. Unless you believe that BZ just guessed about a technique that he hadn't known, seen or heard of that the cocooned people will turn into WZ. To assert than you can make an omelette from eggs, someone must have done it before for you to know it's possible and replicate it.--Elveonora (talk) 10:04, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
Except it was impossible to cast IT in the past because there wasn't damn Moon back then. Sure, with her powers Kaguya could do something similar (I think Hagoromo mentioned it?), but no way on the same scale as Madara. From those experiments she could have learnt the actual effects of people turning into zetsus. Faust-RSI (talk) 10:08, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
IF doesn't require the moon. It's just a tool to help cast it onto everyone. Remember, she had a Byakugan, that pretty much substitutes for the moon.--Elveonora (talk) 10:15, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
That's what I'm saying, she couldn't cast in on everyone, but she could still try it on some group of people... What??? You just said Byakugan substitutes for the moon?? I'm not sure if I want to discuss this nonsense. Faust-RSI (talk) 10:19, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

What nonsense? I don't even know what is there to argue about. The manga without a doubt said that she used Infinite Tsukuyomi. Since as you said there was no moon back then, it's a logical deduction that her Byakugan must have helped her accomplish so--Elveonora (talk) 10:21, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox images Edit

Which ones are better for the both Zetsus' infobox images? The previous ones or the current ones? —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 10:12, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Hm. I support the current ones. They seem much more like profile pictures. Nice one Shakhmoot-sama.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 10:55, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks KotoSenju-san for the compliment, but I wasn't the one who uploaded those current images. Anyhow, it's better to keep them. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 11:08, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh! Kudos to the uploader then too. Usually you upload great photos so the the confusion was easy to make. Glad that you agree. Hopefully more will share our opinion.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 11:20, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Wood Release Edit

So did Hashirama play any role at all?--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

What are you referring to? his DNA? -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 14:28, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Wondering if WZ's capability to use Wood Release had anything with Hashirama at all.--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
It is very screwy. On the one hand he shouldn't. But then Sakura and Shizune saw that most of White Zetsu DNA was basically Hashirama's. Very screwy indeed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:35, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
It's probably safest to say that they were infused with Hashirama's DNA. How else would Madara think he had a part in their creation? Also, Ulti's comment above. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 14:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Was the original WZ actually ever shown using Wood Release or just the army clones produced with TB chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 14:41, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
(Apparently, WZ was sealed along with the TT, but summoned with the Gedo.) Through Black Zetsu's half yes. But the Army clones primarily used it. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 14:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

No, the original White Zetsu was killed before he could do anything interesting. That said, Black Zetsu, which had half of White Zetsu's body did Wood Release just fine, which kinda breaks logic. -__- -TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:53, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Them having been enhanced by Madara with Hash cells makes sense, what doesn't tho is that their DNA is almost identical to Hashirama's. Not even Yamato is almost identical. It's just weird ._.--Elveonora (talk) 15:21, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Well, lets try this:

  • As I already suspected sometime back, only the White Zetsu Army are clones of Hashirama. If it hadn't been for Kaguya/Gedo Mazo, they would have looked identically to him.
  • White Zetsu was originally a human "zetsu'd" with God: Nativity of a World of Trees and the reason why Black Zetsu could use Wood Release with half of his body is because White Zetsu also got enhanced with Yamato, mystery solved--Elveonora (talk) 15:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

I currently understand that White Zetsu's Wood Release is due to Madara's first tinkering with them when he thought he had created them from the statue, similar to Yamato. This would result in the main White Zetsu and Black Zetsu having Wood Release, and later White Zetsu were further enhanced by Kabuto through Yamato. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:47, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

This. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 15:57, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

To clarify one thing, the White Zetsu (both the ones killed at the summit and the one that impersonated Neji) were said to have DNA similar to Yamato as well as Hashirama, so it is entirely possible that they, like Yamato, simply had Hashirama's DNA implanted in them, either intentionally by Madara or just as a result of being attached to the Hashirama-tree. The other questions this new origin creates are how the "White Zetsu Army" clones were created and why they regard one particular White Zetsu as the original, despite the new explanation implying they must have come from the Mazo like the rest of the clones. Not to mention the clones seemingly created by the original's Spore Technique.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:29, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nothing was implied about White Zetsu Army and Spore clones. Only the ones Madara created (White Zetsu, Guruguru, some other unnamed ones). White Zetsu Army and Spore clones should still be considered literal clones of White Zetsu, that also explains why they call him "original". Faust-RSI (talk) 17:08, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Height Edit

Since when has a black mass a definite height? I get that we add the Dojutsu and everything, since he used them. But how does he, as a black mass, share the same height as White Zetsu? And if we add White Zetsu's height because it's the same as the Dojutsu, then don't we have to add Obito's height, too? • Seelentau 愛 13:11, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Well, in theory, his height could be that of his form when he is "Black Humanoid Figure", and I guess that would be listed in the future databook. But yeah, it's definitely not WZ or Obito's height. Faust-RSI (talk) 13:17, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
It's an oversight, simply remove it. As Faust stated, his "true" height is as he appeared when observing Hashirama defeat Madara--Elveonora (talk) 13:21, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
But that's just one of the many forms he can take on. He maybe even coated another human at that time. How can freely formable mass have a definite height? • Seelentau 愛 13:27, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
It's irrelevant atm. Just remove WZ height and close this question for now.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:29, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Why Edit

Is this page locked? Also no techniques show up in the infoboxes--Elveonora (talk) 20:08, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Does this page really need to exist anymore? Edit

It's basically just the two articles for White/Black Zetsu combined into one. Do we really need the separate articles and this one? It's kind of unnecessary. --Mandon (talk) 00:51, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

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