Talk:Yin–Yang Release

All characters?

Is Yin-Yang Release going to be applied to all characters' infobox? Yin-Yang release is the core basis on all ninjutsu, particularly non-elemental jutsu. As Fukasaku explained, spiritual and physical energy are combined to mold chakra. Kakashi and Yamato also referred to Shikamaru's and Ino's jutsus to be Yin-Yang jutsus.

Oh, and yeah, I'm new here so I'm trying to learn how all this works. —This unsigned comment was made by UltimateDeadpool (talk • contribs) .

It can be added, but eventually. We know they're based on Yin and Yang, but we don't know the exact mechanics behind it. For that reason, the only characters so far which will have Yin Release, Yang Release and Yin-Yang Release added to their infoboxes are Rinnegan users, and Izanagi users. Oh, when commenting on talk pages, sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:20, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it kinda redundant to attribute Yin and Yang individually to characters? Based on our knowledge, they don't do anything individually, they have to be used together to use ninjutsu or Izanagi.

UltimateDeadpool (talk) 02:24, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

From what we know Yin-Yang Release is created by merging Yin Release and Yang Release. Izanagi was explicitly said to be Yin-Yang Release. We don't know other examples of Yin-Yang Release specifically, and we don't know how the other jutsu implied are exactly. Are they Yin-Yang as well, are they just Yin or just Yang? Because we can't say that, we can't add those natures without speculating. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:49, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

If Yin-Yang Release is to be attributed to all ninjutsu, then it would be considered a General Skill, and those aren't listed in infoboxes unless they are considered a specialty.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the thing though, Fukasaku explained that ninjutsu is created by using spiritual and physical energy together, which creates chakra. He explained this while explaining how to use senjutsu, which adds natural energy to your spiritual and physical energy, and the three create sage chakra. In addition, as I already said, when Naruto asked about Shikamaru's and Ino's jutsus when Kakashi and Yamato were explaining the chakra natures, they said that they'd explain Yin-Yang release later. So there's no question to me that all jutsus use Yin-Yang release, and that is undoubtedly the 6th chakra nature that Jiraiya talked about: Katon, Fuuton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, and Onmyoton.

Izanagi confuses me, this new explanation that we got mostly contradicts the explanation we got before during the Sasuke and Danzo fight, and honestly doesn't sound any different from ninjutsu other than being more of a "magic wand no jutsu." Izanagi, despite being Yin-Yang release like any other jutsu, is just a very high-level doujutsu/kekkei genkai that can only be done with specific requirements.

And I can understand the "General Skill" argument. Although I'm a little more O.C.D., lol.

UltimateDeadpool (talk) 19:57, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

It is a bit confusing, but it seems like Izanagi is just a high level technique that requires BOTH great control over manipulating yin/yang and it's a kekkei genkai-- a mention that seems missing from the the description. It was mentioned in a few places that you need both the powers of senju and Uchiha to use it, so it's not simply yin-yang manipulation. That is more like you were saying, simply the basis for all jutsu, and more specifiically the non-elemental types. I know you want to limit it to things thathave been stated so there are references, but even then you should be able to change this article and the others to reflect that even though we don't know how they work, some jutsu like shadow manipulation fall under this catagory and that Izanagi is a high level tech that can only be used by those with the combined powers, an advanced kekkei genkai. 173.26.55.253 (talk) 18:00, October 22, 2010 (UTC) Miah

It would be good to add about Banbutsu Sōzō there? —This unsigned comment was made by LosErmanos (talk • contribs) . 17:13, May 5, 2011

If yamato specifically states "the manipulation of Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental jutsu such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc", and nature releases are a form of ninjitsu, then how is Yin & Yang manipulation a "nature type"? Genjutsu is not a sub-form of ninjutsu, so yin & yang manipulation cannot be a "nature manipulation" ninjutsu. Yin Release, Yang Release, and Yin-Yang Release should all be removed. They are not nature types, nor nature transformations, the quote even outright says "non-elemental jutsu". No offense, but I think ya'll put wayyyyy too much speculation into this to actually create pages for these 3 things. SkyFlicker (talk) 17:29, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

All elements are nature transformations, but not all nature transformations are elements. The word 'element' is actually never used in the series, only the words 'nature' and 'nature transformations'. Yin and Yang have been called such, as well. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 17:33, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Basis?

I'm unable to tell, is the article saying that Yin-Yang Release forms the basis of all ninjutsu, or physical energy + spiritual energy? If it's the former, does anyone have a link to where that is stated? Skitts (talk) 09:58, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

are not yin/yang and spiritual/physical energy the same thing ? --Elveonora (talk) 16:44, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge, since Yin and Yang are nature transformations while physical energy and spiritual energy are the components of chakra. Skitts (talk) 17:36, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

nothing to indicate they are different, most techniques transform chakra into something --89.173.134.22 (talk) 01:49, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone else no where that bit comes from? Skitts (talk) 19:31, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

To mold chakra you have to combine spiritual and physical energy. --Elveonora (talk) 01:01, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

@Turry. If you read the discussion above this one you'll see that the info came from Fukasaku's explanation of Senjutsu to Naruto I also think Sakura(or someone) did it a while back in the series albeit she didn't use Yin and Yang but spiritual and physical energies. While I don't think the two sets are different especially with the explanation of Creation of All Things. With that I'd assume that's what the article is supposed to be saying however they don't used them in their raw forms but in the form of chakra to perform techniques.--Cerez₃₆₅™ 01:09, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Woop. I finally got an explanation. Gracias. :-)

Edit- Hm, in the translation I just read, Fukasaku only mentioned physical and spiritual energy, not Yin or Yang in his Senjutsu explanation. I'll keep an eye out for Sakura's. Skitts (talk) 20:47, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

It's the same thing. --Elveonora (talk) 22:07, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

But they're not. Spiritual and Physical are what make up chakra, Yin and Yang are Nature transformations. Skitts (talk) 22:09, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yin and Yang "release" are nature transformations. --Elveonora (talk) 03:56, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

In'yoton or onmyoton?

In the anime Tobi calls it in'yoton, which one is it?--Red-kun (talk) 17:52, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

For me it also sound like this.--LeafShinobi (talk) 20:55, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

bloodline limit

Yin Release/Yang Release are likely something anyone can learn and use (non-elemental techniques), but isn't "Yin-Yang" unique? It's 2 "releases" used at once, just like Earth-Water=Wood etc. and since "Sharingan/Rinnegan, both Uchiha&Senju, So6p, Ten-Tails" and related terms are being spelled in relation to this constantly, I'd conclude as such.--Elveonora (talk) 01:03, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

The fact we don't know how each of them is made individually makes all of that speculation, and thus pointless to discuss until more information is disclosed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:16, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Zetsu Creation Technique

I think we should make a new jutsu page for the technique used in the creation of the White Zetsu Army and Black Zetsu. If not both, atleast Black Zetsu. We know that the jutsu used Wood Relese and Yin-Yang Release to give it life as well as transfer the user's will and Madara teaches the techniques to Obito(And it referred to as a technique). Skarrj (talk) 09:36, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ah so you went ahead yeah and created one without waiting for a discussion. Why even bother to have this here? The White Zetsu Army clones are nothing more than creations that came about because Hashirama's cells are being fed chakra. Madara himself said they were nothing more than severely weakened clones of the First. They're about the same as the faces jutting out of Madara's chest and Danzō's arm. Blaxk Zetsu was also created through what I'm assuming is Yin-Yang Release which is still speculation at this point. Madara did say he was going to teach Obito Yin-Yang techniques, but he didn't say "I'm going to teach you Yin-Yang Release so you can create the White Zetsu Army clones" The creation of those clones was as much a natural occurrence as probably growing tomatoes.--Cerez365^™(talk) 13:48, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure either way. Unless some translation was severely messed up, I do recall some of Madara's parting words with Obito saying something about Zetsu being created through Yin-Yang Release, and not just Black Zetsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:09, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

All elements

Would users with Yin, Yang and Yin-Yang Release not have access to all five elements as well?--Reliops (talk) 16:37, May 26, 2013 (UTC)Reliops

No 0_0--Elveonora (talk) 17:30, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's high time we stop fooling ourselves. Naruto and Madara have been pulling elements from nowhere with their newfound power. I think by now it's obvious that they both have all 5 basic elements at their disposal.--Reliops (talk) 01:09, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

YRR has nothing to do with that--Elveonora (talk) 14:35, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Some research

I'm trying to figure out the mechanics behind all this and have a question regarding this sentence: "The Sage of the Six Paths had such a mastery over the Yin–Yang Release that he used Yin to make his dreams take form, and then used Yang to make his fantasies real. He could even make them come to life." - When was that said? Seelentau 愛^議 17:54, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

I can honestly say I haven't seen, or at least recall seeing, anything around the lines of that information ever stated in the manga or the anime. It should either be removed as speculation or sourced... if there is a source that is. Kromatz ^(talk) 18:02, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

Chapter 510, Obito says that to Konan. --kiadony --talk to me-- 18:12, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

I thought so, too. But no, he doesn't. Seelentau 愛^議 18:16, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

So the sentence in the article is a mistranslation of that part then :/ I don't see any other options. --kiadony --talk to me-- 18:18, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

That's pretty much it - it's a mistranslation. We can easily correctly translate the information though. There are options. Kromatz ^(talk) 18:35, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:49, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, the translation we had of that chapter can be found at Forum:New Year's Fact Checking. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:55, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

I translated it myself yesterday prior to asking this question, and the above statement is just overstated and wrong. Yang doesn't make fantasies real, it gives life to form. Yin gives form to imagination, not to dreams. And to make something come to life is what BS/Izanagi does, it's nothing special. Seelentau 愛^議 10:45, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Should we put an infobox for this topic like other Kekkei Genkai releases?

Wouldn't it make sense for it now?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:15, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

No. Why would it? Yin-Yang has never been linked to kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:24, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It has, however, been associated with Obito's black orbs, which Tobirama specifically stated are Yin-Yang Release. Hiruzen also mentioned that it was made up of at least four of the basic elements, though he didn't say which, and was beyond that of kekkei genkai or kekkei tōta. That means, while it is neither of those two, it is more advanced than we originally believed it to be. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:22, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Hiruzen stated the orbs to be atleast four different elements, combined with Tobirama's comment, implies that YYR could be a kkgenkai. Even though never directly stated, we have enough evidence to conclude so. Just look at Guren's Crystal Release for reference. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 02:52, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I just pointed out that Hiruzen stated that it wasn't a kekkei genkai or a tōta. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:54, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Yea, I know. But what I'm trying to point out is that Hiruzen's phrase could be interpreted differently form what you may think. "Beyond any kkg or kkt" could be of those that are already known to exist. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 02:59, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Except the only known YYR users are Grandpa Six and Uchiha rejects with Hash implants, after Obito explained to Konan the yin yang stuff about Izanagi, she even called it "power of six paths"--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, well, nice as that is, Kishi threw that out the window when he called Obito's black orbs Yin-Yang Release, and then had Hiruzen mention it was made of four or more natures. So... yeah. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:51, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure the chakra weapons are yin-yang release? Originally, when Obito hit Tobirama, the latter regenerated. The way I get it, Obito simply uses a YYR techniques along with the chakra weapons to achieve the new effect.--Elveonora (talk) 21:59, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty positive. Tobirama said something along the lines of "his technique...?! Its derived from the Yin-Yang Release!" That would make it Yin-Yang. Seelauntau confirmed it for us on another talk page I think. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:03, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

I would agree that it needs an info box like other kekkei genkai besides obito's black orbs have been called yin-yang release as TTF has already stated and a jutsu has been created from it so I would agree in that and infobox should be made for this --ROOT根 11:58, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Then explain how come did Tobirama regenerate at first. If his YYR and TTCW are one and the same--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

I don't have to explain anything. It took Tobirama several chapters to regenerate, so it could be that Obito's second transformation enhanced the technique. Regardless, Tobirama said its Yin-Yang Release, so the one who bears the burden of proof is you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:54, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Direct quote from Tobirama was, "It can't be... don't tell me... your technique...? Fourth, we can't afford to take anymore significant wounds, even if we are just Reincarnations! That guy... he's using a Yin-Yang technique that can nullify ninjutsu!" ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:58, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

And no where in that statements it says he refers to the chakra weapons.--Elveonora (talk) 01:07, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

...I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. Anyone who read the chapter knows exactly what he was talking about. No one argues that but you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:34, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

...Pass to the establishment of an infobox then. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:09, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think the topic has strayed from the original point. The topic was made to discuss whether or not this page should have a kekkei genkai infobox. I think that it shouldn't. Nothing so far hints or suggests that Yin-Yang source is genetic in anyway, which is when we use the kekkei genkai infobox. It doesn't matter if the black orbs are four element combinations or Yin-Yang, its source isn't genetic, so by definition, the kekkei genkai box is not to be used. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:35, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I guess there's no hard evidence. But again still, Konan called YYR power of six paths (Sage of Six Path's power) and the only known users are related to him or have stolen Senju/Uchiha power--Elveonora (talk) 17:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Konan said that using both Uchiha and Senju powers were the Sage's power. That power was a YYR, but that doesn't necessarily mean all YYR is something from the Sage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:56, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Basis of All Ninjutsu?

I asked for evidence of this a year or two ago (on this same talk page, no less) and none of what was given actually supported the claim that all ninjutsu is based on Yin-Yang Release. And speaking of that, the article is very unclear. Is it saying EITHER Yin Release OR Yang Release is a necessary basis for ninjutsu, or is it saying Yin-Yang Release is the necessary basis for ninjutsu? Because it says both.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm confused. Ordinary chakra is composed of both Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy. People before tried to say that Fukasaku said something in support of ninjutsu being based on YYR when teaching Naruto what Sage Mode was, but in that all he said was that ordinary chakra is a combination of Physical and Spiritual energies, and that Sage Mode adds a third energy to the mix, natural energy. TL;DR No where does this article cite where in the manga it was stated or implied that all ninjutsu are based on Yin Release, Yang Release or YYR. The Tobirama citation is just him talking about YYR nullifying Edo Tensei's recovery process. Source(s) please? Skitts (talk) 04:15, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, this has never been stated. Yin and Yang (not Yin-Yang Realease, which is seemingly a rare ability) have been attributed to a couple of Hiden techniques, medical ninjutsu, and genjutsu, nothing more. Shikamaru even referred to Tayuya's (likely Yin Release) technique as using "special" chakra like him. Seeing as Naruto didn't know about Yin and Yang, it's entirely possible some techniques don't fall under either banner, even if all chakra presumably contains some amount of Yin and Yang.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:22, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

I see what you guys mean. So, let's get this straight:
Chakra is made by mixing physical and psychical energy. Physical energy is also the basis of Yang Release, while psychical energy makes Yin Release. Since long we thought that this means, that chakra is made from Yin and Yang Release. We assumed that it's necessary to make Yin Release and Yang Release to create chakra, while all that was ever stated was that the energies are needed. So, what does that mean? It means that Yin, Yang and Yinyang are three more natures chakra can take on. Yin Release is chakra made from (almost only) psychical energy, Yang Release is chakra made from physical energy and Yinyang Release is chakra made by combining those releases.
tl;dr: Normal chakra is made from combining both energies, Yinyang chakra is made from combining Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are in turn made from (almost only) one of those energies.
Also, a picture for additional clarification: http://www.qpic.ws/images/chakra.png • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:58, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

@See Exactly. In fact, I think that's what we had the article saying years ago, but apparently it got changed sometime to say that these formed the basis of all ninjutsu, and for the life of me I can't figure out where that came from. xD Skitts (talk) 17:18, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Well then, what about Onmyoton and In'yoton? Kishimoto used both words, the last time when Black Zetsu talked about Naruto's and Sasuke's Yinyang powers and their resonance. Could there be a deeper meaning hidden inside both terms? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:31, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, I thought those were the same thing? What exactly did Black Zetsu say about them? If I remember correctly, the translation I saw just called them "Yin Power" and "Yang Power". :o Skitts (talk) 17:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree Seel that Yin and Yang Releases are just chakras with more mental or physical energies. If they are nature transformations, then there must be more to them than just ratio of basic makeup.--Elveonora (talk) 17:56, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily. 性質 Seishitsu doesn't mean nature in the sense of woods and rivers, but in the sense of property and disposition. Changing the property of the energies itself is what a nature transformation is. You don't have to change chakra to fire or rock to do Seishitsuhenka.

Skitts, they're written the same, but have different readings. Black Zetsu used the term Onmyō no Chikara, meaning power of Yinyang. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:02, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

I know that. But if what you say were true, wouldn't that mean that all Yin, Yang and Yin-Yang techniques require the same ratio of chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

No. Yin would use a higher ration of Yin Release Chakra, Yang a higher ration of Yang Release Chakra, and Yin-Yang presumably just a combination of Yin and Yang chakra. Skitts (talk) 18:18, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

What I meant was that all Yin Release technique would have to use the same ratio, all Yang same ratio etc. if that were true--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Why would that be so? If you want to create the ghosts of Kaguya's technique, you'd have to use a 90/10 ratio or so, a Genjutsu on the other hand needs maybe only 80/20 or so. It depends on how Yin-ish/Yang-ish the technique is. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

You mean Tayuya, but yeah. :p @Elv Why? That was never stated. And to expand a bit on what Seelentau says. Genjutsu also involves the manipulation of the opponent's chakra flow, so there's other things involved in different applications of Yin Release. Probably all that needs to be done is have the chakra have a higher ration of Spiritual energy to get Yin Release. Skitts (talk) 18:46, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

I have found another issue: Was it stated that those energies need to be mixed 50/50 to create chakra? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, Senjutsu chakra requires close to perfect or perfect blend of 3 energies, so yes, your theory about ratios being yin and yang release doesn't work, sadly :P--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Well, everytime the moulding of chakra was depicted, the energies were depicted as a yin-yang-symbol, meaning they were balanced. Also, it would work anyway, because it doesn't matter how normal chakra is built. If it's 50/50, it's normal chakra, if it's more Yin-ish, it becomes Inton, if it's more Yang-ish, it becomes Yoton. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 21:08, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yet Madara used Senjutsu Yin Release Lightning something.--Elveonora (talk) 21:12, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

A combination of Senchakra and Yinchakra. Your point? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 21:57, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Senchakra requires a balance of physical, mental and natural energies. So 8:2 mental to physical wouldn't work as senchakra--Elveonora (talk) 22:10, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but you don't need to use up all chakra for the Senchakra. You can absorb natural energy, get it in balance, use some of it for Senchakra and some of it for Yinchakra. I mean, natural energy doesn't get converted to Senchakra the instant it enters the body. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 22:17, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated a few times that ordinary chakra is a balance of physical and spiritual energy. We know that ratio can be altered for Yin Release, because Shikamaru specifically noted that both he and Tayuya's jutsu do this. Skitts (talk) 00:52, July 20, 2014 (UTC)

While its true that it was said that you need to balance all three equally, if you think about it logically, its only important that natural energy be 1/3 of it. It's the only thing that actually affects sage mode. It could easily be 3/6 physical, 1/6 spiritual. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:27, July 20, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so ordinary chakra is a balance of both energies, while Yinchakra is more psychical (making the release Inton), Yangchakra more physical (Yōton). This can go at least up to 99/1 and 1/99, respectively. Even if you need to balance all three energies for Senjutsu, you don't need to actually use up all the energy. You can use some for Senchakra and some for Yinchakra, making Madara's technique possible. As Skitts said, Shikamaru confirmed that you can alter the energy ratio, making my whole explanation possible and highly likely. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 10:17, July 20, 2014 (UTC)

According to the first databook, both energies have to be balanced. According to the third databook, it's not necessary, since Tayuya's ghosts were created with almost only mental energy. Shikamaru describes it as special chakra and says that her techniques are hiden ninjutsu without a doubt. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:42, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Biju chakra

I wonder why I can't find any discussion about this: When Naruto trained the TBB, Gyuki said that a TB's chakra is made up of black and white chakra. Minato seperated the Yin and Yang halves from Kurama's chakra. How likely is it that the black and white chakra is the Yin and Yang chakra Minato split? Elve, I know your opinion already, but what about the others? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:31, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Probably very likely. But people tend to get butthurt at the thought of connecting dots not are not explicit.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 10:52, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Not to butt in, but if the black and white chakra was Yin and Yang chakra, then how could Yang-Kurama perform a Tailed Beast Ball? For now, black/white and Yin/Yang chakra are unrelated.-- JOA20 11:50, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Because a TB doesn't use itself for a TBB? Kurama kneaded new chakra, too. As long as the TB has both energies available, it can always create new Yin and Yang chakra, even it itself is only Yin or Yang half. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:19, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

That is what i thought about it. Question:Does it make every jinchuuriki TBB caster YYR user?.. Rage gtx (talk) 13:20, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Unless the Tailed Beast Ball is stated to be Yin-Yang Release, topics such as this one are pointless--Elveonora (talk) 14:41, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, yes. Elve: Naruto used a TSB - which are YYR, since they negated Kaguya's ice - as a TBB. Also, you know as well as I do that we don't need to get everything spoon-fed. If those two chakras are not YYR, we'd have yet another two different kinds of Chakra and Biju chakra would be made of four different chakra types. It's just plain dumb not to think that black and white chakra is the same as Yin and Yang chakra. I mean, Yin and Yang are even depicted as black and white everywhere in the world. Just look at the depiction of Kurama's chakras when Naruto and Minato linked. Positive and negative are also traits of Yin and Yang. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:42, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

No, they didn't, blowing something up and negating are two different things. And he has only Yang Release, if he had YYR, there would be no need for Sasuke. Also Yin is negative/passive in real world, not positive like in Naruto, same for Yang, it's positive, yet negative in Naruto.--Elveonora (talk) 16:33, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora, Hagaromo had YYR and still wast able to seal his mother without Hamura. Rage gtx (talk) 16:40, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that we know he had it. Naruto doesn't have Yin Release unless he uses a technique known to be one or a new one labeled as such--Elveonora (talk) 17:19, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Ah but the question here though is if that "black and white chakra" is in fact, Yin and Yang. If so, then by using a Tailed Beast Ball, he does possess the ability to use Yin-Yang Release. And that'll be my contribution for the day. Go back and argue :D--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 17:23, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Hamura helped sealing the TT. Elve, I meant directly after they were caught in the ice. The TSB negated it slowly, they dug through the ice. However, Naruto only has Yang Release in his hand, that's why I needs Sasuke for Yin. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:27, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, coulda woulda. @Seel, fire melts ice too, that must make it YYR--Elveonora (talk) 17:35, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't melt, it is negated. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:47, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora, well ice is KKG which consist of water so for fire to melt it need to be higher class jutsu. And did Kaguya used Hyōton there?

On OP if it were melted where is water?Rage gtx (talk) 18:01, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Ice wasn't confirmed to be Ice Release, I was talking about real fire melting real ice. And Naruto's TSB didn't melt it, it doesn't like like it to me at least.--Elveonora (talk) 18:36, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto's TSB didn't melt, that's right. They negated. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:45, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter, page exactly?--Elveonora (talk) 18:49, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Immediately after they were caught. Don't know the chapter, but they dug through the ice like a mole. Also, creating ice from nothing is Hyoton. (I don't know why we don't list her as a user, but that's another story) • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:54, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 682 where Naruto and Sasuke got caught in ice(i think page 11) when Kaguya already leaving through portal. Rage gtx (talk) 18:58, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, because some are still likely under the false impression that she manipulates every aspect of the dimensions, which was proven false, as she only switches between them. @Ragegtx, thanks. But they weren't negating the ice, they were changing their shape to escape out--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

So if she has Hyoton, the ice around our shinobi was Hyoton and can therefore be negated by Onmyoton, which the TSB did in chapter 682 on page 12 (mr). You can see three TSB digging through the ice. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:52, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Digging through =/= negating. Negation would have made the ice vanish instantly. For her natures, that is something to be taken to her talkpage--Elveonora (talk) 19:57, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious? They negate what they touch, not the whole ice. If you have a black dot in paint and put the eraser on it, the whole dot isn't erased, but only the part were you put the eraser on. It's like that. Why do I have to explain that? Come on, you're smarter than that. :/ • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:00, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Simply no, it's all too speculative and requires leaps of faith. What's curious about you is that you are against assumptions, BUT only for as long as they aren't your own. And I mean no offense with that, but stick to your words please. Everything in this topic is one big speculation, save the Ice Release part which may have merit.--Elveonora (talk) 20:08, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Leap of faith? Where? We have a Ninjutsu (Hyōton, since there is no other way to create ice) that is negated by TSB (not melted since there's no water). I bet if this was your own reasoning, you'd believe it. Also, this whole wiki is a clusterf'ck of hipocrisy. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:16, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Is she also a Lava Release user because one of dimensions is Lava? Kind of an elephant in the room.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 20:17, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Elveonora is a bias contributor. He has gone out of his way to take Yin-Yang Release out of everything related to TSB and Naruto despite what we've known. Those balls weren't changing shape. They negated the ice they were directly in contact, which is what has always happened (they didn't negate all of Hashirama's clone or all of the Edo Kage's [Minato] bodies; only what they were touched). I also agree with the TBB portion of the arguments. Black and white chakra are obviously yin and yang, making the Bijuudama, YYR as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:19, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@TU3: That's not the point. I never said she manipulated the whole dimension. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:21, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, my sentiments exactly. @Foxie, nice butt-kissing. @Seel, after checking it out more thoroughly, there might not even be any Hyoton. Once she used her doujutsu to change it to the ice dimension, they already appeared inside of the structure made of ice, she didn't make it--Elveonora (talk) 20:23, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that, too. But then what about the TSB? How can they negate real ice? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:30, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

That's why I said I don't think they were negating it. They were simply trying to push out of it. If Naruto's TSB were negating it, he wouldn't have needed to use super strength to burst out--Elveonora (talk) 20:36, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

We know that the TSB negate more than ninjutsu. Minato warned Kakashi never to touch them and Madara was surprised when his TSB failed to completely demolish Naruto's leg after he kicked them away. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:42, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Elve, when he used the Superhuman Strength, he wasn't really trapped, that was a trick to get Kaguya to come closer. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:45, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, I know, they negate chakra in general, but how is that relevant? Btw. Sakura survived one, but that's for another topic I guess. @Seel, I know, my point is there if the ice were hyoton and Naruto had YYR, he would have negated it instead of using strength, therefore either the ice ain't hyoton or Naruto doesn't have YYR--Elveonora (talk) 20:55, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

In the anime the TBB is consistently red & blue the colour of YYR(Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:03, July 21, 2014 (UTC))

That proves as much as both it and Yin, Yang being black and white respectively in manga...

Elve, you don't get it. He didn't negate the ice then because he wanted to surprise attack her. To attack her, he needed the raw strength. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 21:14, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Kuroiraikou yeah just like Rikudou palms when he uses Banbutsu Sōzō.

@Elveonora well you comparing two different thing now :ice trapped Naruto and Sasuke was created out of no where while ice(and snow) that was attacking Naruto when he remarked that Kaguya has power of nature was from winter dimension(it was similar to Kabuto Muki Tensei) moreover what will Naruto do complitly under Kishi`s control so logic doesn`t apply to that.Rage gtx (talk) 21:15, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

What seems to have been overlooked is that Kaguya's chakra is senjutsu chakra, so regardless of whether the ice was Hyoton or not, it can't be negated. Naruto has only gone up against senjutsu users since creating the TSB, so we may never know for sure if they have the negation property or not.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:17, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Except that you don't have to use Senjutsu chakra even if you can have it. We don't know if she used a Senjutsu: Ice Release: Something or simply a Ice Release: Something. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 21:22, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as we know Naruto's TSB negated the ice, I call BS on the senjutsu theory. She was either not using it or doesn't have it. The TSB alone proves that. Edit: You're also forgetting, Red, that Naruto and Gamakichi proved that senjutsu distorts the form of a TSB, and Naruto's were perfectly spherical. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:24, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Come on... there's not even evidence that the ice was a technique and not just ice. And if it was a technique, then her not using Senjutsu for that would have been stupid of her. And her not having Senjutsu is out of the question in my opinion, she is one with the Shinju, noted to be natural energy, flies, something that was accredited to senjutsu of six paths etc. (yet Seel removed her as user..., but that's another topic) We have multiple options:

• ice wasn't a technique, TSB were simply slipping through, not negating
• ice was a technique, TSB were still just slipping through, not negating
• ice was a technique, TSB were negating, but the ice wasn't Senjutsu.

I suggest we just drop this for now and focus on more important matters--Elveonora (talk) 21:29, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

You must be joking. "Ice was a technique, TSB were still just slipping through, not negating." Are you absolutely kidding me? You will stop at nothing to remove Yin-Yang Release from any argument. "Simply slipping through". When have they ever "simply [slipped] through" anything? Secondly, Seel already translated the "flight" comment. It wasn't attributed to senjutsu. Just the Sage of the Six Path's power. Lastly, again, the fact that TSB worked on the ice proves there was no senjutsu involved. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:41, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Same goes for you. You will stop at nothing to include YYR in any argument, especially when it comes to TSB. And Hagoromo's power that Naruto's got is Senjutsu of Six Paths, hence that's what allows him flight, otherwise Sasuke would have it too. Since Kaguya flies, she has the same power as Naruto, so yeah, argue all you want--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora, just explain me how making ice out of no where not considered as technique, i can understand not being KKG but this, does she have natural ability to it or have she snowman as one of her ancestors? Rage gtx (talk) 21:51, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, then I shall argue it. Tobirama put Yin-Yang Release with the TSB. You deny it. You are neither Tobirama nor Kishi, therefore your pre-occupation with removing it is bias. Secondly, Sasuke's non-use is not proof that he can't use it. He either doesn't want to or doesn't know how. Naruto did it unconsciously. They both got Hagoromo's power, which is the term Kakashi used. Now do you have manga panels to back up your claims or are you going to spout your opinion at me again? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:54, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Ragegtx, she didn't cast it though, re-check the chapter/panels. She used her Rinnegan to shift the dimension and they already appeared inside of the ice construction.

@Foxie, correction, Tobirama put YYR to Obito's conscious usage of it. Once Tobirama says to Naruto: "oh, yours too are YYR" then I will shut up. For Kaguya, not sure how that changes anything. If Hagoromo's power is what allows Naruto to fly and Kaguya flies, then so she does have Hagoromo's power. Also our articles already accredit the flight to Senjutsu of Six Paths I believe, not just "general Hagoromo power"--Elveonora (talk) 22:02, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Problems with your arguments.

1. Tobirama put YYR to TSB. He didn't comment on Obito's consciousness nor his specific usage. He specifically references the technique itself. Read the chapter again before making your argument.
2. Do you forget that there are several other flyers without Hagoromo's power? What's to say Kaguya doesn't just know how to fly? Kakashi only attributed flight as Hagoromo's power to Naruto and Madara (and by extension, Obito, since he could do the same and had similar circumstances to Madara).
3. Then they will be changed. Seel translated the chapter and provided it. It is Sage of the Six Path's power. Not Six Paths Senjutsu.

Anything I miss, or do you want to explain these away too? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:11, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

1. One user having YYR TSB doesn't mean all users have YYR TSB
2. Yeah, because the originator of all chakra and Hagoromo's own mother is likely to have different flight than him
3. What does Kakashi say exactly there?--Elveonora (talk) 22:17, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Where to start?

1. Really? Care to prove that? 'Cause I don't see that anywhere in the manga I've read. Your opinion maybe? Most likely. I'll humor you though. Naruto eliminated the ice. TSB have never "slipped through" anything, so there goes your useless argument there. They were negated just like Minato warned Kakashi about and just like Madara expected to be done to Naruto's leg, had Naruto not been protected by the Sage's power. That proves Naruto has YYR in his TSB, that Madara does (as he expected Naruto to be erased and Minato claimed Madara's ball could do that), and Obito, we know could. That's all three cases except Hagoromo. Got anymore for me or are you done speculating?
2. Hagoromo hasn't done anything she's done but fly, what's so hard to believe she can just fly; since I highly doubt she needs her son's power to do so.
3. Ask Seel for exacts, but if I remember correctly, it was something to the effect of "Madara too started flying after obtaining the Six Paths power."

Anymore? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:33, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

1. Naruto threw his TSB as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken, not 4 or more natures+YYR, that to me is evidence that it's safer to assume the natures of TSB are dependent on the user and even may vary from use to use, thus aren't set. For the damn ice, we wasn't shown it to have been a technique at all, they just appeared inside of it, so no YYR "proof" Also Sakura got hit by a TSB, her useless self is still walking around and wasn't negated, care to explain?
2. Hagoromo's power is but a fragment of hers. It's pretty much safe to assume that both of them have common source of flight
3. Even if so, it's called reading the context. The only "Rikudou" powers Naruto has that we know of are Six Paths Senjutsu and Yang tattoo. So unless Yang tattoo allows him the flight, it must be the Six Paths Senjutsu, unless you like to assume that he has other "Rikudou" powers hidden besides those mentioned--Elveonora (talk) 22:44, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Really, I do wonder if you even read the manga. We don't know what the other "four natures" of the TSB are. Wind Release is a possibility, no? Not that it really matters, you used your opinion. Thrown out. It was shown erasing the ice when it was moving around. Cuss all you want. Kishi and your own poor logical conclusions are your enemy here. I'm using the manga for proof. Again, Minato wasn't erased either. Sakura was constantly healing herself with the Yin Seal and even Madara commented that was the only reason she survived. But you didn't read that far, did you? Hagoromo's chakra is from her, yes, and he can fly, also true. Hagoromo also had a Rinnegan, which appeared in his eyes, not his forehead, and they were vastly different from her own, so forgive me if I don't think Kaguya's ability comes from senjutsu. Lastly, "context"? Really? All your previous arguments have ignoredcontext. Let's re-look, shall we? Kakashi called it the Six Paths power, not senjutsu. Your argument that it is related to Senjutsu is due to the fact that Naruto can use it and not Sasuke, but lack of evidence is not proof he can't do so, so that is speculation. Thrown out. Please keep this up. I have the manga to back me up. I can do this all day. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:52, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Haha, you are utmost adorable. Yes, please do. Not even paid humorists manage to entertain me as well as you can and you do it for free. How did I deserve such a special privilege?--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that you are making things too complicated. As @Elveonora said, they just appeared in the ice dimension inside the structure. Kaguya wasn't showed making ice from anything so, the "Hyoton theory" kinda miss. And about the other thing, am I the only one that saw that the TSB, that slip through the ice, are reacting to Black Zetsu?. Please, recheck the panels and you will see that. LeoHatake 04:30, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Geez, why do discussions with you guys always get so out of hand? I simply wanted to note that the TB chakra is made from Yin and Yang, which was proven by Minato and that Gyuki's comment on the black and white chakra is about Yin and Yang, since those are always depicted as black and white and are said to be positive and negative in real world. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:05, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yes and that's true. Except as I said, the chakra may not be Yin and Yang Releases considering that the black was stated to be positive and white negative. In real life, Yin is negative, black etc. while Yang positive, white etc.

So while it's 99% likely that the positive black and negative white chakras are what Kurama was split into, there's no evidence for them being YYR or any release for that matter--Elveonora (talk) 13:02, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Never did I say anything about any release. As for the features, you're right, I didn't even notice that. But well, Kishimoto could've simply changed them, hm? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:50, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

You did, You said that TBB is YYR because it uses black and white chakra which you thought to be yin and yang releases respectively. And exactly because Kishi changed that, we can't say with certainty that Yin is positive black and Yang negative white. There might be besides positive black/negative white also negative black and positive white for all we know, the latter being yin and yang--Elveonora (talk) 13:55, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

That had nothing to do with my original point, but was part of the discussion as a reply. My original comment was simply about if we should add that it's likely that Gyuki talked about Yin and Yang, of course adding a Trivia that it's unclear why Kishimoto changed the aspects. I think this is important, but if you don't want to see it in the article, then nevermind. I don't want to waste my time with all those pointless discussions as seen above. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:58, July 22, 2014 (UTC)