Talk:Uzumaki Clan

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Revision as of 01:21, May 30, 2013 by MangekyoSasuke (Talk | contribs)


Symbol as of 618

So, as of chapter 618, it appears that the clan symbol and the village symbol are actually the same. Does anyone disagree with uploading the village symbol as a new revision of the clan symbol? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:56, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

The red swirl is fine on the Uzumaki clan page, but replace the village symbol on the Uzushiogakure page with the clan symbol. Since The Uzumaki were pretty much in charge of the village.--Itachi7000 (talk) 23:09, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

The current Uzumaki symbol has that outer ring. I believe it came from a panel which featured Mito, and those were in the background with that colour in the spiral and the outer ring. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:29, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

That outer ring doesn't seem to actually be part of the symbol, but a complement to it. I remember seeing something like that around an Uchiha clan symbol before. Can't remember from where. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 23:52, January 30, 2013 (UTC) EDIT: Also, every time the symbol is seen, its without the symbol. Take the samurai outfits on the 616 cover for example. Both Sasuke and Naruto have Their clan symbols on them, with Naruto's all over the place. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 23:58, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

The arrows were a bit different in the manga but I think we need to remove the outer ring that we currently have for more accourate depiction. I also think that maybe the symbol should be white(?)/have no colour to match all the other descriptions. It seems like the village's symbol was the red one.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:25, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Just leave the red swirl on th oage as it is.--Itachi7000 (talk) 01:35, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Uzumaki and Uchiha symbols. --The Goblin 08:37, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

That's the ticket Gobby. That's part of the reason why I think the Uzumaki symbol should be white, and not red. Apart from that, it was said that Konoha has the symbol of Uzushiogakure on their uniforms, and that's red.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:00, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
Thing is, village symbols have never had colour. They're just the design. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
Ah, true, I was just going based off the colour on the Konoha-nin shoulder markings. Not too sure how the Uzushiogakure people made the distinction really. So basically I mean we use this for the village (needs to be renamed -.-") and this for the clan? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:27, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
As far as I understand, I think Uzushio symbol stays as it is, and we either redirect the Uzumaki clan symbol into it (similar to how we use redirects so Shisui's MS shows up in Danzō's and the crow's infobox), or we upload the current Uzushio symbol as a new revision of the Uzumaki symbol. No idea on what happens regarding the colour. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:38, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
Colour was just kind of a "differentiator" to me. We wouldn't mention that one is red or anything like that of course, but if you think it's the safer bet just to use the one we use on Uzushiogakure's article now for everything, I have no qualms with that either.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 12:19, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I still go by replacing current Uzumaki symbol with Uzushio symbol. Just uploading that as a new revision should do the trick. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:33, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

So the same colourless one for them both? Don't think the filename needs to be change the file-name, people shouldn't concern themselves with that so much. I thought it'd be a good fit to add the red symbol for Uzushio, but we do need to get a move on this.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 07:09, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
For some reason, I'm not being able to save the svg file to my computer to reupload it on top of the current Uzumaki symbol. Anyone with better luck out there? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:01, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
This is what you meant right? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 23:18, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
That's the one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:25, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Known Members

Why are Naruto, Nagato, and Karin all listed as Uzumaki members but Tsunade and Nawaki aren't? They are all descendants of the Uzumaki Clan so they should all be listed, we don't know exactly how Nagato and Karin are related to the Clan, other then they were stated too, however, we know exactly how Tsunade and Nawaki are related to the Clan. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 17:41, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. What should be the preferable way of approaching this is mentioning that they are members of the clan in this article, but it shouldn't be in their articles. Karin probably has no clue about her origins, we don't know which one (if not both) of Nagato's parents are Uzumaki, and we know why Naruto has the last name Uzumaki.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:59, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
Hey we do know that karin and Nagato are from the Uzumaki, but In tsunade's case her and Nawaki are related yes, but they aren't directly from the Uzumaki they have Senju background aswell, showing thatyes they may have a bit of Uzumaki for them, but If thier put on the Uzumaki page then they should be put on the Senju page am I right tso thats why remember karin and nagato are Uzumaki so yep--Jean DaichouLoves Naruto 18:00, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah but how do we know that Nagato and Karin aren't in the same scenario as Tsunade and Nawaki? It was never stated how Nagato and Karin are related to the clan, we don't know which one of Nagato's parents come from the Clan. And we haven't even see Karin's parents. So who's to say they aren't related to the Clan in the same way Tsunade and Nawaki are? Ya know through a grandparent? {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 18:25, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
But the hair Is also a give away the Uzumaki are mostly the only people In Naruto that have distinct red or orange hair, showing that karin and nagato could be from the clan and they are but your right we don't know how they could be related but we know they are so you'd have to consult that with sysops mate--Jean DaichouLoves Naruto 18:33, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
Please add a space between our comments when posting next time, otherwise it looks like one huge group of text and it's difficult to read. Anyway, I don't wanna edit it and mess up anything, so I'll contact the Sysops about this. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 18:35, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
Alrighty --Jean DaichouLoves Naruto 18:40, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

I was under the impression, that based on what ShounenSuki said a while ago, that clan affiliation is based on the male parent. Given that the Uzumaki part for Tsunade and Nawaki is based on their maternal grandparent, they weren't listed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:51, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

It is, or at least should be. That's why I mentioned that we didn't know which one of Nagato's parents were Uzumaki. It's under very rare circumstances that a male would take on their wife's clan name, such as if that clan were really high ranking. To date none of those examples have appeared in the series.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 18:55, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
True It may be a clan custom for all we know If a clan member marries a non clan member, but what should we do for Nawaki and Tsunade ?--Jean DaichouLoves Naruto 18:58, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
Those two can be linked to Senju. We don't know their parents, but we do know their parental grandfather he's important enough to shrug it and move on. The other Uzumaki members remain Uzumaki members due to be explicitly stated to be Uzumaki.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 19:09, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Good thats sorted then--Jean DaichouLoves Naruto 19:11, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

But we don't know Tsunade and Nawaki's parents, what if their mom was the daughter of Hashirama and Mito? Then that would make him their maternal grandparent, and their paternal grandparents could possibly be from the Uzumaki clan, or any other clan, or not any clan at all. All I'm trying to say is that Nagato and Karin were only stated to be descendants of the Uzumaki Clan, as I said earlier, what if they were in the same scenario as Tsunade and Nawaki? What makes them any more worthy of being considered Uzumaki then Tsunade and Nawaki? {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 19:40, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

We don't need to know who Tsunade and Nawaki's parent's are, her grandfather was a Senju so it's immediately impossible for them to belong to the Uzumaki clan. Neither of them should have their clan as Uzumaki. Mention that they are descendants sure, but not in their infoboxes.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 19:51, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe there needs to be a clear explanation of how clans/family names work.

  • Jane from House/Family/Clan X marries John from House/Family/Clan Y and has a child A.
  • A is A from House/Family/Clan Y with familial ties to X.
    • A is not a member of House/Family/Clan X, at least not directly.

The field is asking us what clan Naruto for example belonged to. He was from the Namikaze Family (Minato's words, he never said clan, still you never know) with ties to the Uzumaki and just happening to use that last name due to circumstances. Persons who marry into another clan are the only ones that can hold allegiance to two clans, not offspring.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 20:28, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

That explains that thank you for that cerez :) and could you answer my question on the Huga clan talkpage please --Jean DaichouAllied Shinobi Forces SymbolLoves Naruto 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Why can't they be Uzumaki if their grandfather is Senju? He's just the grandfather. And going by the whole explanation of clans/families above, that would mean if their mother was the daughter of Hashirama and Mito, and their father was from another clan. They should only be listed as their father's clan. See what I mean? Besides their last names have never been stated, so what if their last name is eventually revealed and it isn't even Senju? What if their last name was their father's and it was something completely different? And he came from another clan? Would they still be considered Senju then? This is what I meant by their parents are important. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 20:52, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think those three should be removed. First of all, all three were explicitly called members of the Uzumaki clan, not just descendants, by Tobi, Kabuto, and Madara. Tsunade and Nawaki aren't considered Uzumaki because Mito married into the Senju clan. You can only be a member of one clan at the time, you're either born into it, or you marry into it. They're not listed as Uzumaki because Mito "became" a Senju when she married into it. Nagato and Karin only have Uzumaki as known ancestry. With Naruto, despite knowing that he got his mother's name instead of his father's, should still be listed as an Uzumaki because as far as we know, there simply isn't a Namikaze clan for Kushina to have married into, and even if she had, I also recall ShounenSuki explaining that men can marry into important clans without their wives losing the important clan name, as to keep the clan's name alive, something like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:35, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Omnibender on this one. Nagato and Karin were stated to be of the Uzumaki clan. Naruto is well, obvious.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:47, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
I think you guys might be right. Kabuto say she was from the Uzumaki directly and then in the frame that followed Nagato was drawn alongside the rest of them. That might actually be grounds enough to list them as Uzumaki. As for Naruto, I still don't think he should be an Uzumaki, it does hold true that men can marry into powerful clans as Shounensuki said, instead of taking a "no-name" but at the same time, there was no longer a clan structure for Minato to have married into, so I don't think that would have been the case for them. I think we just need to find a premise for adding people to clans in "exceptional"(?) cases like this one and stick to it. Once that's done we can have an explanation should others come thinking along these lines.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 12:57, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Madara said "Mito's Clan" when they were talking with Kabuto about Naruto as the host of Kurama, tho Naruto himself never referred to himself as from a clan, nor anyone else commented on Naruto as belonging to the Uzumaki Clan, as it no longer exists. There are no other known living Uzumaki in the village of Konoha... In case Karin settles there tho, would that mean it's functional again tho?--Elveonora (talk) 16:13, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

As a structure the clan no longer exists, but that's not what we're 'focusing' on. It's more of a name. Madara did in fact recognise Naruto as such but, that was only because of the last name. Nagato and Karin are basically a given, what we need to decide is whether or not Naruto should be given the same courtesy.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:57, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a complex case to me T_T we need Shikamaru to figure this out \(._.)/ --Elveonora (talk) 17:08, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I seriously don't see what is the problem with keeping Naruto as an Uzumaki. So what if he doesn't have red hair? Madara recognised the name as being from Mito's clan, you think he's going to reason "that child has no red hair, he must only be a descendent of the Uzumaki"? Again, if there had been a Namikaze clan, I'd be more willing not to list him as an Uzumaki, but as far as we know, there isn't one. Are we going to list Gaara, Sasori and Sasori's father as Uzumaki as well on red hair? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:23, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I understand what your trying to say omnibender and I agree but it's Just a noticeable trait that the uzumaki have (red hair) thats all Is It mentioned on the article If It's a trait?--Jean DaichouAllied Shinobi Forces SymbolLoves Naruto 21:29, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Hair colour isn't a factor for me because I understand that red hair is a trait of the clan, not a constant. However, what I'm concerned about is whether or not we're going with the fact that the Namikaze were not a clan hence Naruto would literally belong to the Uzumaki or that because his father had another name whether or not he'd be considered a member. That's actually all that separates Naruto from Nawaki and Tsunade. Well that and a generation. Either decision is fine with me.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 22:02, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't get why was hair color brought up Omni but ok. It's irrelevant to this issue. Nagato and Karin might have been born into Uzumaki families. They aren't extincts by blood, perhaps smaller Uzumaki Clans exist all around the globe after their village's destruction. Tho Naruto wasn't born into a clan nor is a member of such clan since he has no relatives with his name nor there exist any in Konoha, not to mention his surname is more of a coverup.--Elveonora (talk) 23:59, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

His mother had the name Uzumaki and was a clan member. Did Sasuke cease to be an Uchiha after the massacre and for the years he lived alone without relatives? No. If we remove Naruto from the Uzumaki clan on that basis, we might as well remove Sasuke and Itachi too. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:11, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Elveonora, it's one of two things as I said before:
  1. Minato was not part of a clan hence he would or could have married into the Uzumaki clan (even without changing his name) and Naruto would automatically belong to his mother's clan since his father didn't have one.
  2. Because his mother was married away, would he still be considered a member.

Ignore the basis of extinction, because the Uzumaki aren't extinct, they're in hiding as far as we know; they could be breeding up like rabbits. I'm more inclined to go with option 1 since Minato said they were a family of shinobi and there's no mention of a Namikaze clan.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 10:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

this does not make any sense. Naruto does not look the slightest like an uzumaki. ALL members of the clan have red looking hair and good sealing skills. Naruto has none of these. Furthermore, he does resemble minato much more and his character and jutsu are just like that of his father. If an uzumaki stays an uzumaki even when one part of the parents does not belong to the clan, that would be the proof that naruto would be part of it too. I mean, just look at sasuke and itachi. their mother was not an original uchiha and yet they just show the typical uchiha standards. I think it is time to create a namikaze clan pahge, even when the only known members are just minato and naruto, but hey, look at juugos clan. (talk) 13:55, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
Jugo;s clan was stated to be a clan. There is no evidence that Minato had a clan.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:21, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
It was never stated. All we have is that they have a power that lets them break loose and an image that is of no use at all since you can't recognise anybody. We don't even know the real name. "Juugo's clan", yeah, big deal. pfff
anyway, as I've said earlier, if there is no clan page yet here then we should just create it. (talk) 15:11, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I guess you guys make a fair point. No point in arguing about what clan Tsunade and Nawaki belong too when we can't even be 100% sure without knowing who their parents are. But as for the whole Naruto thing, this is interesting. Without us knowing whether Minato came from a clan or not, makes it difficult to decide whether Naruto would be considered a true Uzumaki clan member when he shows none of their signature traits except for his strong life force and healing abilities. Naruto nor anyone else even stated Naruto to be a true Uzumaki, he has familial ties to the Clan? Yes. But would he truly be considered a member of a Clan that no longer has any structure and was destroyed? And on top of that he doesn't seem to consider himself a member of the Clan. Even when Kushina was talking about her past and the Uzumaki Clan she said "my clan" she never said "our clan" to Naruto. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 15:35, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

@79. ur logic is off, I will make a proper response to the other editors once I manage to process and swallow what you just wrote. EDIT: proper response incoming, a single individual doesn't make up a clan, nuff said--Elveonora (talk) 15:40, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

took you a long time to swallow I see! ;) (talk) 15:41, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Well, at least you were a funny troll, you are already being missed, ciao--Elveonora (talk) 15:49, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

yeah, have a nice day! also, thanks for actually confessing to me, but I actually prefer you to be silent. ;) (talk) 15:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Folks let's take haku for example, his mother was from the yuki and passed on their ice element trait to him and because of that haku was recognised as part of the yuki when he was resurrected because only someone from that family could use ice element . The same goes for naruto and the traits he inherited from kushina. I think some of us look at the clan system as inbreeding(that both parents from same clan) and patrilineal that's why we have trouble assigning clans but i think a shinobi's membership to a clan isn't just based on which clan the father is apart but traits counts just like the haku's--Rayzur (talk) 23:11, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Person's aren't recognised as being part of a clan because of the traits they inherited. Haku being a Yuki could be for the same reason Naruto is an Uzumki: their fathers have no clans for them to belong to. We generally have a very easy time assigning people to clans, the Uzumaki have been the only exception thus far, because their situation is confusing at best.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:38, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah i think minato not being from a clan (currently) does make naruto being an uzumaki much understandable but in the clans page it is stated that membership to a clan is based upon blood relations and genetics, so thats why i feel clan membership isn't solely based upon just patrilineal lines but in the end the uzumaki are a lost/dead clan so naruto at least is a descendant, i hope that makes everyone satisfied--Rayzur (talk) 11:11, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

Your edit

How Is your edit relevant, Its fine but their's no need to say that they've resurfaced cerez O.O ?? --Jean DaichouAllied Shinobi Forces SymbolLoves Naruto 20:46, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

This is not a talkpage first of all. Secondly, if you feel there's a better way to describe people that fled and went into hiding reappearing in the series, go right ahead an edit the article.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 20:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

missing references/false info

Ok, can anyone link me chapter where it says something about longevity or vitality? The only trait of Uzumaki that there's reference for is life force--Elveonora (talk) 14:27, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

The part about longevity is on chapter 500, page 3. Not sure about the mention of vitality though. Is it not the same thing as powerful life force?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:32, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, was just making sure as I forgot she said that, thank you a lot--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

"senju descendants"

Now as you may know, we list it as such according to what Zetsu said in chapter 606. I assume we took it for granted from ms' translation, but according to one person, it doesn't specify the relation any further, meaning the descend part is wrong. Could anyone, best Seelentau (I know you are busy pal T_T) check this out? Well, this is in full what he wrote:

The original Japanese word that Zetsu used was "血縁" or Ketsuen which translates as "Blood Relative" NOT 子孫 or Shison which means descendant. Lineage then in context means "blood relations"

And if you apply logic and common sense, you would know that in terms of the coefficient of relationships in Genealogy, two clans who descended from the same common ancestor are considered "close relatives" not "distant relatives" which would contradict Kushina's statement, therefore, the Uzumakis did not descent from the Younger Son--Elveonora (talk) 20:42, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

I did some of my own research out of curiosity a few weeks ago, trying to find out which exactly would have come first, because I never wanted to accept Uzumaki were descended, rather I (in my own desires) hope they came first. Of course, I say I did research (and didn't, really) toward that goal, but what I really did was simply find out if they were descended. And I found the same thing, that they were not descended, rather they were close relatives. Though I'm still hoping Uzumaki come to be the actual descendants, lol.--Taynio (talk) 22:51, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
If Seelentau or anyone confirms it to be true then it should be changed asap. Uchiha are distant relatives to the Senju, so are Uzumaki. For all we know, Uzumaki may be descendants of Sage of Six Paths' brother or something--Elveonora (talk) 23:03, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

Uzumaki are still related to the Senju somehow, and more towards them than towards the Uchiha. Nagato has been identified as Uzumaki, and also as having Senju lineage when Zetsu first showed Obito. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:44, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, you know more than an average person when it comes to biology and stuff, or not? How can someone come from the same lineage as Senju do, yet be distantly related to them? Humans and chimpanzees are cousins thus closely related, while gorillas are distantly related, second cousins let's say, monkeys even more so. The main point though is that Uzumaki may not be descendants of Senju, as Rinnegan article claims Nagato to be. Uzumaki may be humans and Senju chimpanzee (the former didn't develop from the latter), while Uchiha gorillas in this equation :P--Elveonora (talk) 10:45, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

The way I currently understand it, the Uzumaki are an offshot of the Senju, becoming their own clan over time, simple as that, no convoluted explanation. They obviously remained aware they're related to the Senju, even though they became their own clan. They'd be considered distant if the split happened a very long time ago, but like I said, the clans remained aware of their relation to one another. Over time, certain characteristics would become signature Uzumaki, like long lifespan and red hair, specially if they married clan members. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:26, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

The way it seems though, the Senju clan appears to be the offshoot. Uzumaki clan traits seem to be more in line with the younger son than the Senju are. I wish Kishi would hurry up and clarify this so we wouldn't have to speculate which came before which. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:21, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

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