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QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

Limited Tsukuyomi 2

I've seen Limited Tsukuyomi performed... It isnt anything like the normal Tsukuyomi. Not at all. He didn't even cast it with his eyes. Also, it's speculation to assume that Obito is using Tsukuyomi. When Madara cast his version of Limited Tsukuyomi on obito, to give him an example of the technique, he used the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path with a regular Sharingan, a non-Mangekyou Sharingan. We also now know the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path is the body of the Ten-Tails.

I think we should create a new page for Infinite Tsukuyomi and Limited Tsukuyomi using what we actually know now. In both depiction and usage of both techniques, they used a regular 3 Tomoe and not the actual Tsukuyomi at that. J/s. Skarrj (talk) 06:09, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

He used his eyes, notice the tomoe reflection on the crystal ball, also we know he has a MS. For Madara, what he did back there also appears to have been Limited Tsukuyomi, I wanted to make a topic on this long ago, thanks for a reminder. Also you are missing a little thing, MS techniques were seen performed with a regular Sharingan (Obito spamming Kamui seemingly with 3 tomoe, Susanoo etc.), not to mention it has been stated that the eye is nothing but a tool, the actual power resides within the user. Special chakra within an Uchiha's brain affects the optic nerve and changes the eye, thus even with an eye replaced, the mangekyou power should still be there. EDIT: but yes, both limited and infinite tsukuyomi should have a separate article from tsukuyomi, a little speculation, but I think LS and IS are yin-yang release versions of Tsukuyomi just as Blaze Release is seemingly yin-yang release version of Amaterasu--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think what Madara did to Obito counts as a limited Tsukuyomi. What he did to Obito can very reasonably be achieved with Genjutsu: Sharingan, not to mention Madara did not have MS at that point, so in no way that would be a Tsukuyomi. And regarding the chakra, if it was as simple as putting the special chakra to the eyes, they could simply use someone who awakened the MS transplant eyes over and over with other Uchiha so a significant number of them had MS. Heck, just have one of them flow their chakra through an another Uchiha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

If they don't feel loss of a close loved one, their brains produce not such chakra, thus transplanting a MS eye into a non-MS Uchiha would grant him those powers only for as long as the eyes are in his sockets. Also back on topic, do you have something against creating one/two articles for this matrix/inception version of Tsukuyomi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone thought it was pointless to create an Infinite Tsukuyomi article, and when the name for the Limited Tsukuyomi came along, everyone thought the same. I don't oppose the creation, I just find it unnecessary, if not a bit redundant, since we know that in Tsukuyomi, the user can control everything. Only thing that seems to change between regular, limited and infinite is range and potency. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:53, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Not just that, Tsukuyomi is nothing but illusion while limited/infinite actually trap people in fake world--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think that they were actually transported somewhere else? This is more like part 1 filler Kurama clan arc genjutsu than actual alternate reality. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I thought you saw the movie, they were sucked into the crystal ball. What confirms the dimension being "real" in a sense is Naruto keeping AU Sakura father's hokage cloak for a brief moment and AU Sakura entering "the real world" in anime. That's what differentiate the two tsukuyomi, one is an illusion that's completely controlled by it's user, the latter is the same just thoughts actually becoming real, wouldn't be the first thing, Izanagi does something similar--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

All the show is the crystal ball glowing when they see the moon through it. Nothing indicates them being sucked into it. And when they break out of the genjutsu world, the ball is just shown breaking. When they come to it, they're simply staring, as expected of someone who's trapped in genjutsu. No indication of them being released from another dimension. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Read the above again please, also the Kunai he threw at him broke the crystal ball, not to mention Obito wanted to steal Kurama from him within the illusion--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Of course they'd see Obito trying to steal Kurama within the illusion, Obito cast the illusion. Pretty much the whole scene is seen from the perspective of those inside the genjutsu. Relatively speaking, the audience is in the genjutsu. Besides, there's no sign of broken crystal once they come out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

So you want to tell me Obito cast a genjutsu that made it possible for Naruto to escape from it? Yes, that's why he showed disappointment. And are you saying that the Obito within the genjutsu wasn't real? Then we interpret the movie quite differently--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Genjutsu used by Obito was a prototype, and Obito didn't have perfect control of it, so there was an escape for Naruto and Sakura, he didn't try to have them leave or purposly create a loop hole to get out, it was just because it was a prototype that it had such a weakness. And Obito was watching the entire genjutsu, he was in it but it was still a genjutsu. what does him being in it have to do with him not being real? Omni never said that Obito wasn't real, he just tried to steal the Kyubi using the genjutsu.... besides, Naruto and Sakura were also in the genjutsu and they were real, it probably used the same principles as Izanagi or creation of all things to create a genjutsu world that seemed extremely real and gives you your hearts desire while the jutsu is being cast.....--Deathmailrock (talk) 09:07, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Madara limited Tsukuyomi

After re-reading chapter 606, it seems to me quite certain that what Madara did to Obito was that technique. He said that the same thing only has to be cast onto everyone using the moon--Elveonora (talk) 23:47, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't be. Tsukuyomi is a MS technique. Madara's MS was in Nagato's eye socket as Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

And I'm well aware of that, but the dialogue suggests as such. He says that with Ten-Tails (then Gedo's) power he can create the world as he wants it and only has to use moon as the medium instead of his eyes to put everyone into it.--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Tobi

I know we see him performing it only in the movie but if he mentions it in both anime and manga tie-ins, should'n he be listed as a user also for those media?--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:38, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's kinda complicated, road to ninja got that manga one shot (and manga is canon, right? lol) and also animation of it through the latest episode and road to sakura episode makes the movie seemingly anime-level canon, that brings question if Obito used the "Tsukuyomi" canonically or not.--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't think a one shot would count as canon @-@ I say leave it as is with saying movie only. Also, anime adds a lot of things that weren't canon so I doubt that should even factor in lol 173.189.2.172 (talk) 11:55, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

separate article for limited/infinite tsukuyomi decision

The reasonings are as follows:

  • If it were the same, then in order for Obito to use it in canon, which he of course plans to, it would have made him a user of Tsukuyomi, and as such the "movie only" label as is would be wrong. The likelihood of him having Kamui in both eyes but Tsukuyomi in one or each as well is there, but nothing suggests that.
  • Besides similar name and moon thematic and being "illusions" their workings and effects differ quite enough. Also this one can be reflected onto a surface to project it everywhere.
  • Tsukuyomi is an ordinary genjutsu (by definition) limited and infinite ones literary transport people into a new dimension
  • "illusionary people" can cross the words as well, like AU Sakura did
  • All in all, this technique and it's prototype version are likely to be related to yin-yang release rather than just yin release--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Elve here on all but the last part, but only because that's speculation; not because I actually think he's wrong. I've always thought Mugen Tsukuyomi deserved its own article, just in the same manner that Wind Release: Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasenshuriken need their own. Sure, MT is a vastly more powerful version of the original, but it clearly has some noticeable differences from the original, and its been named. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 20:34, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
  • Obito isn't the only one who is apart of the plan. Madara was suppose to be revived for the plan as well and there is nothing saying he couldn't just use Tsukiyomi (I know I'm dodging the question but it's the only thing I have right now)
  • We've never seen anyone use a genjutsu by reflecting it off a surface so we don't know if one could or could not.
  • It's not transporting people into a new dimension. They're using it to put people into an illusionary world. It's basically like having everyone hypnotized forever.
  • Is AU Sakura suppose to be the one from Road to Ninja? If so, she already knew it was fake and I guess that allowed her to do so? I haven't seen the movie so this is just me guessing
  • Is there anything pointing to it being yin-yang release right now? If not then we don't know until they use it.
While I don't oppose making a new article (I mean, we have tons of articles for elemental skills that are just upgrades) I wanted to point out some problems with what you said. Joshbl56 20:40, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

@TTF, thank you for support. For the last point, it stems from genjutsu having been stated to be yin release and just messing one's brain, while the only known genjutsu which is "real" (Izanagi) is yin-yang instead. @Josh, watch the movie first :)--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

I would like us to see MT in action before actually making an article for it. I fully expect that Obito or Madara will in fact succeed in casting it at some point, with Naruto leading everyone in managing to break it, in a very cliched and formulaic manner. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:54, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
Right, I'm not in a hurry, it can wait. Even tho I doubt they will succeed to cast it, that would mean game over for good. But, it surely will be elaborated upon soon--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
But we have already seen Limited Tsukuyomi in action, and it is very different from the normal Tsukuyomi. And we know that Infinite Tsukuyomi is Limited Tsukuyomi, but in a much greater scale, and with the user having complete control of the "new world". I don't get why Odama Rasengan can have its own article, while Limited & Infinite Tsukuyomi can't. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:02, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
We don't know enough about Infinite, but can't Limited have a page, since we know how it functions? At least that would separate the non-canon movie material from the canon technique page and make it so Obito isn't listed as a Tsukuyomi user.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:17, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
Heck, I don't think that even Madara & Sasuke should be listed as users, since they've never used it. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 22:57, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
Point of Clarification: Both of them are listed because as per the requirement of Susanoo, both Amatesaru and Tsukuyomi have to be unlocked. So even if we haven't seen them use it, they both have to have it to use Susanoo.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:26, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah I know... even though Sasuke said later that one has to unlock the ability of each eye, which for Sasuke is Amaterasu & Enton: Kagutsuchi... But let's not get into that again, and let's wait for a new databook to clear things up. Still, I don't understand why we have 2 seperate articles, for example, Rasengan & Odama Rasengan, while we have Tsukuyomi, Limited Tsukuyomi, and Infinite Tsukuyomi in the same article, while we have seen the first 2, and we know almost exactly what the 3rd one does. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:13, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

I believe we should remove Obito as a movie-only user of Tsukuyomi tho. There's no evidence for or against it and limited/infinite tsukuyomi having enough in common. And if they do, that would mean that Obito is a canonical user of Tsukuyomi as well, since pulling off Moon Eye Plan wouldn't be possible otherwise, unless he plants to use eyes of someone else. Not to mention we don't even know if limited/infinite tsukuyomi requires Mangekyou Sharingan or can be done with 3 tomoe for example.--Elveonora (talk) 11:03, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Now it was revealed how the the infinite Tsukuyomi will be cast, I think we should re-discuss if create an article for it Adept-eX (talk) 13:01, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention it would appear the user will be the tree itself--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

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