Talk: Tsukuyomi

Latest revision as of 04:31, 8 January 2021


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Bloodline Necessity

Why was the part where it mentioned you will need to share the same blood as Itachi as well as possess a sharingan to escape tsukuyomi removed? Kingomanoki (talk) 02:05, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

I took the "same blood" line in chapter 142 to mean defeating Itachi, not Tsukuyomi. (I also took it to mean any Uchiha, not just Sasuke.)

Even if you believe "same blood" is in reference to Tsukuyomi, Zetsu's comments in chapter 388 indicate it's not a matter of having the same blood, but rather being skilled with the Sharingan. ~Snapper T o 03:29, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

However, before and after he says the bloodline quote( which if I remember correctly he specifically stated be related to "me") he refers to tsukuyomi. And Zetsu without a doubt indicates needing skill to break free, however i'm pretty sure even if you are related to itachi and possess a sharingan, for instance sasuke in part 1 would most likely not be able to break out, even though he's related.Kingomanoki (talk) 03:36, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me? ~Snapper T o 03:48, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'm disagreeing. Kingomanoki (talk) 05:51, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

He's talking about Tsukuyomi before the "same blood" part, yes. But as I mentioned, the "same blood" is mentioned insomuch as being needed to defeat Itachi, not Tsukuyomi. And it's not appropriate for the wiki to apply statements about one thing to a second thing. It would be like, when given the statements,

A > B

and

C \le D

, you conclude that

A \ge C

. That conclusion might be true, but you've got not direct evidence of it. ~Snapper T o 23:10, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

Not to seem like i'm just trying to find anything to say, but what exactly proved *any* particularly skilled sharingan user can escape tsukuyomi? kakashi was put into tsukuyomi and yet couldn't escape, however sasuke was able to, and if we compare sasuke's skills with sharingan compared to kakashi, I would say kakashi is better. As well as, sasuke is actually related to itachi. Adding on, wouldn't he just instead be saying tsukuyomi makes him in a sense unstoppable since anyone not related to him can't escape tsukuyomi? Kingomanoki (talk) 05:56, August 27, 2018 (UTC)

Even Perfect Jinchuriki cannot beat Tsukuyomi

Naruto knows Killer B is a perfect Jinchuriki, yet tells him if he gets hit by Tsukuyomi it is over. It's effects are too fast and too devastating so that should be mentioned in the article, though how to word it is the issue. BloodOfTheArchon (talk) 00:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Naruto warns him about being hit by either MS jutsu, so the issue isn't genjutsu per se, it's Itachi's MS in general. People keep harping on the too fast effect, but everyone seems to forget that even for perfect jinchuriki, Tsukuyomi isn't necessary to catch them in genjutsu. Obito managed to put Yagura under genjutsu, and he didn't have Tsukuyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

That is indeed true. Itachi also caught B in a normal Genjutsu and B didn't know it until Gyuki warned him about it. But there are some users on this wikia who seem to think Tsukuyomi wouldn't have an actual effect BECAUSE the other person is a perfect Jinchuriki which is just entirely false. In a literal second it would have started and ended and that would be that. The only issue is wording these things because some people get uppity about it. BloodOfTheArchon (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

If people want to make baseless conclusions, on what-if scenarios, that's on them. Point is, as far as Tsukuyomi is concerned, we don't know what would happen, because it never did, so there's no need to mention it. We don't know if a tailed beast would break the genjutsu, we don't know if it would also be caught in the genjutsu, or if by having forewarning like Naruto gave B and Gyuki something could be done. Sure, Naruto had that concern, but Naruto is also hardly an authority on genjutsu. He warned B it would be over if he was hit by Amaterasu as well, and we know the first time B got hit with it, he seized the opportunity to go on an unsupervised vacation. Closest thing to Tsukuyomi B and Gyuki ever dealt with was Sasuke's MS genjutsu when they fought, and one that was conspicuously Tsukuyomi-like, with the signature colour-inversion, and quite reminiscent of Itachi's first use on Kakashi, but with giant feathers instead of swords doing the stabbing. They broke through it. Still, no Tsukuyomi on perfect jinchuriki actually happened. Between not actually happening, and other weaker genjutsu working, trying to say what would happen with Tsukuyomi is an intersection of pointless and speculative, whether one leans towards working or not working. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{ArchiveList}}
-== Name ==
-The article name is Tsukiyomi and that is what was in the article. [[Special:Contributions/71.229.98.95|71.229.98.95]] changed this to Tsukuyomi in [http://naruto.wikia.com/index.php?title=Tsukiyomi&diff=next&oldid=10126 this diff]. Can someone verify this? ~<span style="font-weight: bold;" title="Dantman does not work for Wikia">NOTASTAFF</span> [[User:Dantman|Daniel Friesen]]<small> (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire)</small> <sup>([[User_talk:Dantman|talk]])</sup><nowiki/> <small>[[Forum:Javascript addtions to searchbox|current discussion]]</small> <small>Nov 27, 2007 <sub>@</sub> 04:17 <sup>(UTC)</sup></small>
-:Nothing to worry about. Infact that IP caught a mistake. Its is spelled Tsukuyomi, but was spelled wrong here. I redirected it to its actual article.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 05:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
-== Sasuke and Tsukuyomi? ==
+== Bloodline Necessity ==
+Why was the part where it mentioned you will need to share the same blood as Itachi as well as possess a sharingan to escape tsukuyomi removed? [[User:Kingomanoki|Kingomanoki]] ([[User talk:Kingomanoki|talk]]) 02:05, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+:I took the "same blood" line in chapter 142 to mean defeating ''Itachi'', not Tsukuyomi. (I also took it to mean any Uchiha, not just Sasuke.)
+:Even if you believe "same blood" is in reference to Tsukuyomi, Zetsu's comments in chapter 388 indicate it's not a matter of having the same blood, but rather being skilled with the Sharingan. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:29, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+::However, before and after he says the bloodline quote( which if I remember correctly he specifically stated be related to "me") he refers to tsukuyomi. And Zetsu without a doubt indicates needing skill to break free, however i'm pretty sure even if you are related to itachi and possess a sharingan, for instance sasuke in part 1 would most likely not be able to break out, even though he's related.[[User:Kingomanoki|Kingomanoki]] ([[User talk:Kingomanoki|talk]]) 03:36, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+:::I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me? '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:48, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+::::I'm disagreeing. [[User:Kingomanoki|Kingomanoki]] ([[User talk:Kingomanoki|talk]]) 05:51, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+:::::He's talking about Tsukuyomi before the "same blood" part, yes. But as I mentioned, the "same blood" is mentioned insomuch as being needed to defeat Itachi, not Tsukuyomi. And it's not appropriate for the wiki to apply statements about one thing to a second thing. It would be like, when given the statements, <math>A > B</math> and <math>C \le D</math>, you conclude that <math>A \ge C</math>. That conclusion ''might'' be true, but you've got not direct evidence of it. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 23:10, August 26, 2018 (UTC)
+::::::Not to seem like i'm just trying to find anything to say, but what exactly proved *any* particularly skilled sharingan user can escape tsukuyomi? kakashi was put into tsukuyomi and yet couldn't escape, however sasuke was able to, and if we compare sasuke's skills with sharingan compared to kakashi, I would say kakashi is better. As well as, sasuke is actually related to itachi. Adding on, wouldn't he just instead be saying tsukuyomi makes him in a sense unstoppable since anyone not related  to him can't escape tsukuyomi? [[User:Kingomanoki|Kingomanoki]] ([[User talk:Kingomanoki|talk]]) 05:56, August 27, 2018 (UTC)
+== Even Perfect Jinchuriki cannot beat Tsukuyomi ==
-Has it been confirmed that Sasuke can use the Tsukuyomi? In many other pages, it continously says "presumably". This is just out of curiosity, and I would like to know. Thanks for those who help me out with this. [[Special:Contributions/190.35.102.204|190.35.102.204]] 23:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
+Naruto knows Killer B is a perfect Jinchuriki, yet tells him if he gets hit by Tsukuyomi it is over. It's effects are too fast and too devastating so that should be mentioned in the article, though how to word it is the issue. [[User:BloodOfTheArchon|BloodOfTheArchon]] ([[User talk:BloodOfTheArchon|talk]]) 00:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
-Sasuke never used tsukuyomi. And where did the info came that all all mangekyo sharingan can use tsukuyomi isn`t tsukuyomi a special ablility only possesed by itachi with his mangekyo?--[[User:Kevinhomaster|Kevinhomaster]] 07:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
+:Naruto warns him about being hit by either MS jutsu, so the issue isn't genjutsu per se, it's Itachi's MS in general. People keep harping on the too fast effect, but everyone seems to forget that even for perfect jinchuriki, Tsukuyomi isn't necessary to catch them in genjutsu. Obito managed to put Yagura under genjutsu, and he didn't have Tsukuyomi. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
+That is indeed true. Itachi also caught B in a normal Genjutsu and B didn't know it until Gyuki warned him about it. But there are some users on this wikia who seem to think Tsukuyomi wouldn't have an actual effect BECAUSE the other person is a perfect Jinchuriki which is just entirely false. In a literal second it would have started and ended and that would be that. The only issue is wording these things because some people get uppity about it. [[User:BloodOfTheArchon|BloodOfTheArchon]] ([[User talk:BloodOfTheArchon|talk]]) 03:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
-I thought that it was just Itachi because he was a very strong ninja, especially in the area of Genjutsu, that could use it.  Of course I could be wrong...if anyone finds the answer it would be helpful if they could tell me. THANKS! [[User:Haku711|Haku711]] 13:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
+:If people want to make baseless conclusions, on what-if scenarios, that's on them. Point is, as far as Tsukuyomi is concerned, we don't know what would happen, because it never did, so there's no need to mention it. We don't know if a tailed beast would break the genjutsu, we don't know if it would also be caught in the genjutsu, or if by having forewarning like Naruto gave B and Gyuki something could be done. Sure, Naruto had that concern, but Naruto is also hardly an authority on genjutsu. He warned B it would be over if he was hit by Amaterasu as well, and we know the first time B got hit with it, he seized the opportunity to go on an unsupervised vacation. Closest thing to Tsukuyomi B and Gyuki ever dealt with was Sasuke's MS genjutsu when they fought, and one that was conspicuously Tsukuyomi-like, with the signature colour-inversion, and quite reminiscent of Itachi's first use on Kakashi, but with giant feathers instead of swords doing the stabbing. They broke through it. Still, no Tsukuyomi on perfect jinchuriki actually happened. Between not actually happening, and other weaker genjutsu working, trying to say what would happen with Tsukuyomi is an intersection of pointless and speculative, whether one leans towards working or not working. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 04:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
-Well Sasuke was shown to use a Mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu on at least one occassion. Judging from the reversed colors, it was Tsukuyomi, but that is not certain.
-== Slowing Down ==
-Is it possible for the Tsukuyomi to slow down the opponent. Look at Naruto Ultimate ninja Storm videos. Please could someone answer? [[Malkhawam|Malkhawam]] HM 07:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC).
-Tsukuyomi has been shown to but the victim in a very real and very painful Genjutsu. If it is slowing someone down, it is because their mind is getting screwed beyond reason. It doesn't actually slow anyone down.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 12:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-Would this Slowing Down happen in the real world. [[Malkhawam|Malkhawam]] HM 13:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC).
-:No. Because Tsukuyomi doesn't actually slow you down. It's a genjutsu that effects the brain, not the body.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 13:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-Would the opponent slow down in the real world (at least a little) because of the genjutsu effects on the brain? [[Malkhawam|Malkhawam]] HM 13:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC).
-:If someone is running at top speed at the user, and the user uses Tsukuyomi, the victim will stop in his tracks as he will suddenly find himself in the genjutsu. If he doesn't slow down, he will fall straight to the ground as his mind is no longer "in" his body but within the genjutsu. He will in no way shape or form, slow down like you see in the Ninja Storm games.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 13:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-If you have seen Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm videos and shows it would seem like in the other world for tsukuyomi it would slow down the user (but mostly for Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm and look when itachi does his awakening mode for Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm he would clearly be seen using the technique). Am I right? [[Malkhawam|Malkhawam]] HM 13:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC).
-It slows down the victims perception of time, by the amount the user wants it. It doesn't however actually slow the victim down.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 13:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-If you have seen Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm videos Itachi could be seen using Tsukuyomi (not an ougi) the taunt and slow down the opponent (even though i don't know if that is the real world). So do you go an answer? [[Malkhawam|Malkhawam]] HM 13:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC).
-:*Sigh* You are still not getting the difference between canon (manga/anime as this wiki is concerned) and non-canon (movies and games). I've been giving you an answer which you have been ignoring so I am going to say this one last time: Tsukuyomi does NOT slow the person down. If they are running at top speed, and they get it by the Tsukuyomi, they will still be running at top speed when it dissipates. The slow down mechanic which you are hopping on constantly is a GAME-PLAY MECHANIC that exists because a instantaneous, perception destroying genjutsu can not actually function in a game in anything other than a cut scene, and even then video games tend to throw the physics of techniques out the window. So again for the last time, Tsukuyomi does not slow the person down, no matter what you see it can do in the video games.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] 13:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-He's right. It's just something that they added in to make the game more fun.  Like in the game if you use Anko's special jutsu,the one where snakes wrap around you and your opponent, you won't take any damage.  But, in the real world, it's a suicide technique that kills you and your opponent. BTW How did she survive? I am missing that information. Could someone please fill me in? THANKS! [[User:Haku711|Haku711]] 13:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-:If you are refering to how she survived when she used it in the manga/anime, she never completed the jutsu, as Orochimaru warned her that the Orochimaru she was going to kill was a clone (a shadow clone in the manga, a earth/mud clone in the anime). [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] 14:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-Thanks I've been missing that info for a while! I didn't know she could just stop it like that... COOL! Anyway thanks again[[User:Haku711|Haku711]] 14:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-:She haden't come that far, merly grabbing Orochimaru's hand and forming the seal. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
-== madara ==
-shouldn't we put Madara as a user, because Itachi said that Madar could use all four Mangekyo techniques?
-:It was a mistranslation, Itachi was talking about Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] 19:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
-Madara says that he will use the Infinite Tsukuyomi, so should we put him down as a user? [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] 21:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
-:Wants to be a user ≠ user. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 05:00, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
-::Wants to be a user of infinate tysukyuomi, not original, it seems as every person with MS has Tysukyomi, Madara would probably have to have the technique if he wanted to use infinite tysukyomi because just becoming a Jinchuuriki does not give his MS Tysukuomi but would give him the power to be able to cast it on the moon so everyone would be under his genjutsu. So in short he wants to be able to use Infinite MS, but would require the techique (Tysukuomi) before hand to be able to use the Infinate MS. [[User:Hidan13|Hidan13]] ([[User talk:Hidan13|talk]]) 16:41, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
-::::Probably has it ≠ has it. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 17:45, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
-== Because this revert war can go as long as I can make it.... ==
-...we're gonna discuss. As of now, we know the requirements to use Susanoo is to first be able to use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. We've seen Sasuke use Amaterasu and go to town with Susanoo, and we've seen him use a genjutsu that looked exactly like Tsukuyomi against Killer Bee, but he didn't say it's name. So logic tells that Sasuke can indeed use Tsukuyomi. Thoughts, translations to help with this. Ect, ect.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 20:39, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:[[Talk:Sasuke Uchiha#Susanoo?]]. A similar argument, where it was decided that he can use Tsukuyomi as well--[[User:AlienGamer|AlienGamer]]--[[User talk:AlienGamer|Talk]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/AlienGamer|contribs]])</sup>-- 20:47, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:We can't dogmatically assume that Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi because he can use the other two MS techniques. For all we know, there's a reason Kishi never stated he used Tsukuyomi. It's possibly the reason Susanoo is imperfect. Tsukuyomi is the ''only'' MS technique Sasuke has never been referred to as using, added to the fact that theories stated in the manga have been - more than once - later proven to be false. Take the example I stated earlier; Itachi stated that one must kill their best friend in order to achieve the MS, but Kakashi had no one close to him and achieved it, which strongly suggests that Itachi's - and in effect, Madara's - belief was false (Sasuke's case is still debatable). My point being, we have no surefire concrete basis for undeniably believing that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 20:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-::Except by definition of Susanoo, the user must have already known Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Using what we know, Sasuke must be able to use Tsukuyomi.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 20:53, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:::Except the statement you're referring to was stated in-universe (meaning it is what the characters believe, not necessarily what's confirmed). By definition, a user must kill their best friend to receive the Mangekyou Sharingan. Remember that? And the last point, Sasuke has still never stated, nor has it been stated by anyone else, in-universe or out, that he can or has ever used Tsukuyomi. Anything more is - by definition - speculation. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 20:57, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:::Wait, you're saying what is stated in the story to be speculation because it has a chance to be changed? Is that your argument? Because that is extremely flimsy at best.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 21:17, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:::(sigh) No, no, no. I'm saying something that is ''officially unconfirmed'' and ''speculative'' shouldn't be ''accepted'' and ''stated as fact'' as it can be changed. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 21:20, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-::::And yet, it is not "officially unconfirmed" and "speculative" because we were told (I believe it was in the databook, because that is what our databook translator said in the discussion AlienGamer posted above) the user of Susanoo must master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Therefore, Sasuke using Susanoo means he must, until proven otherwise, use Tsukuyomi.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 21:25, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-Whoa, whoa! Wait a minute: "''it is not "officially unconfirmed" and "speculative" because we were told (I believe it was in the databook, because that is what our databook translator said in the discussion AlienGamer posted above) the user of Susanoo must master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.''" If it was stated in a databook, you should have said so sooner. Post a scan of the page as proof, because I read that conversation, and I didn't see one databook reference. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 21:31, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-::EDIT: Found a link to mangahelpers via [[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]]. Read Susanoo, and that was good enough for me. Feel free to add Sasuke's name back. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 21:38, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-:::o.O O.o wha? That's it?--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 21:40, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-::::(quote)"The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu²," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi³," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo"."(end quote)
-:::::Yep, that's it. --[[User:Xepeyon|Xepeyon]] <small>'''''[[User talk:Xepeyon|You Speak,]] [[Special:Contributions/Xepeyon|I've Spoken]]'''''</small> 21:44, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
-How do we know it is unique to the Uchiha clan?
-[[User:Shieldmaiden|Shieldmaiden]][[User talk:Shieldmaiden|I live by honor and die like a warrior]] 13:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
-:Because the Mangekyō Sharingan is needed to use it. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] 13:47, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
-== "Red moon" reference ==
-Just ''where'' exactly in the [Black and white] ''manga'' was it ''shown''? I saw no such red moon when Itachi used it in part one, and the databook makes no mention of a red moon. If anyone did and insist on keeping that part in article without clarifying it as part of anime [which it is to begin with], I'd like you to ''specifically reference'' it in the manga to avoid any further confusion. As you'll see, there is no red moon or even ''atmoshpere'' when Itachi demonstrated the jutsu.
-http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/17-18/
-http://mjv6qw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pOrc_tko15F8btQWVzTqmYeiNa-48RXDzZuwbQ1i3v7QcevMyA8ZGvvKSD-A9wmR8l_blJvFKZoYEYXV6Pterib635ZKUYl6K/redmoon2.jpg
-The area in the manga is ''completely dark''. Listing such as a trait of the jutsu ''without'' clarifying it is thus ''inaccurate'' as it's not ''canonical''.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 12:06, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-:Being that the manga is black and white kinda does that to color don't you think? The anime is able to show a lot more of things that are limited by the small panels in the manga. Thus far, we've seen in color (in the anime, obviously) and it had the red moon, which caused the introverted colors and what not. But I'll do some rewriting because you made such a long post and I'm sure your gonna bite me if I don't.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 12:53, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-::I take that back, there is no way to rewrite it without going into a bunch of unnecessary babble because I made my point above.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 12:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-:::Tell me, where on that page do you see a moon, let alone a red one?[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 16:49, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-::::The very pictures you linked. Like I just said, we've seen it in color (gray-scale, as seen in the manga, the red moon to explain the gray-scale we see in the anime) and thus it is mentioned. If you wanna be difficult and shoehorn a "anime only" reference someone in there, be my guest just don't do it in a way that screws with the flow of the article.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 18:10, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-::::The place you chose to add (anime only) suggests that the color inversion is unique to the anime, which it isn't. Tsukuyomi illusions are white lines on a black page instead of the usual black lines on white pages. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 18:29, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
-== Clearance: Genjutsu from chapter 478 ==
-The genjutsu used by Sasuke in chapter 478 cannot be concluded to be Tsukuyomi because there is no substantial evidence to support that. Let's revisit older chapters and put this into perspective. Sasuke's first use of genjutsu with his Mangekyo Sharingan was in chapter 408, page 3. Here, he easily breaks the will of the Cloud shinobi after Suigetsu failed to do so with his physical prowess, and the cloud shinobi is paralyzed. Let's do recall that Kisame claimed Itachi's genjutsu [Tsukuyomi] was known to break the will of victims [chapter 142, page 9], and Kakashi experienced paralysis [Or fatigue] after it was used. Even ''Karin'' knew Sasuke's genjutsu would work. Why? One can therefore make a reasonable assumption that Sasuke's genjutsu from that particular chapter was Tsukuyomi. Moving on to chapter 413 page 9, he does the same thing again, only this time we see the ''inverted colors'', and it's ''broken''. '''This is important'''. Let's go back to chapter 388. Here, Sasuke breaks Tsukuyomi. Like Killer Bee after him, Sasuke is ''fatigued'' and can barely move for a certain amount of time. Not only that, but Itachi, user of said genjutsu, experiences slight fatigue to the extent where he also collapses and has pain in his eye. When Killer Bee broke Tsukuyomi, Sasuke experienced fatigue to the extent where his reactions were quite slowed [He is hit by a Lariat] and his eye is pained as well. This is important; All the above is ''missing'' when Sasuke used his genjutsu on Danzo. It is shown that one shouldn't be able to ''attack'' during or after Tsukuyomi's duration, and Sasuke was about to do ''just that'' while Danzo was distracted. To summerize:
-'''1) The colors are not inverted.'''
-Unlike his prior genjutsu, this one features no inverted colors.
-'''2) Sasuke experiences no fatigue.'''
-Unlike his other genjutsu that was broken [That was again, broken], this particular genjutsu caused him no fatigue and he was about to follow it up with an attack.
-'''3) Danzo experiences no fatigue.'''
-Sasuke has his eye removed, and he later collapses after the genjutsu is used. Killer Bee is stabbed and collapes. Danzo is burned and nothing happens? It's like how Naruto is hit by several shuriken and choked, and nothing happens to him. Seem ''familiar''?
-'''4) Sasuke's eye is not strained.'''
-And the last important one. Both times when Tsukuyomi was broken, the user was holding their eye. Not once in this chapter Sasuke stop to hold his eye.
-So who are we kidding here? This was a "normal" genjutsu meant as a ''distraction'', as I especially don't think someone is effectively ''locked into using Tsukuyomi'' while they have the Mangekyo activated and can't use ''other genjutsu''; Tsukuyomi shouldn't be the ''exclusive'' genjutsu of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Let's also keep in mind what happened after Itachi used genjutsu on Naruto and it was broken. The ''exact same'' seems to have occured here. Finally, we can't just blindly take what a character says without looking for the conflicting evidence. Madara for example claims Sasuke's pure hate enabled him to break the cursed seal. Sasuke's thoughts on the other hand, show that his love for Itachi instead fuels him.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 19:57, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-:Your points are explained by Sasuke not being as skilled with Tsukuyomi as Itachi is, which is what Danzo says. Also, Sasuke's hate for Danzo and love for Itachi go hand-in-hand, so that's not conflicting. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 20:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-::Or he just used a regular genjutsu? We should show evidence that Sasuke was using Tsukuyomi to put that i. So far, I don't think he has in that particular. I alreay pointed out how Tsukuyomi's inverted colors and how it causes fatigue and eye pain when it's broken, so this has nothing to do with skill and don't ignore that much.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 22:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-:::The end of chapter 387 and the start of 388 are a Tsukuyomi illusion and the colors don't become inverted until Sasuke starts to break it. Inverted colors are a characteristic, not a requirement. In regards to chapter 413, you are giving too much attention to one panel. Sasuke is not aware that Bee has broken the illusion. He lets his guard down and for that gets Lariat'd. The pain it causes him is also clearly not as bad as what Itachi experienced, so logically he could ignore the discomfort and continue attacking if he wanted to, as he does with Danzo. Again, Danzo says Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is not as sophisticated, which means the penalties of using it would not be nearly as bad as Itachi's. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 04:27, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
-:Danzō <u>doesn't</u> say that Sasuke's genjutsu is Tsukuyomi, however.  I'd say that's a misreading of the line:
-:HisshouBuraiKen: Danzō: I'll commend you for actually trapping me in a [genjutsu]. However... [. . .] Compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... You're as far below him as the land is below the sky.
-:There is just no element of the sentence that says—or implies—that it's Tsukuyomi.  [[User:Bvdan|Bvdan]] ([[User talk:Bvdan|talk]]) 17:10, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
-:: It is implied by the fact that he's comparing the genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, which he wouldn't feel the need to do if he was talking about any other genjutsu, as a genjutsu that can alter the perception of time has never been shown other then Tsukuyomi, thus it wouldn't be an insult to go "That generic genjutsu you just used is less powerful then a genjutsu which uses an immense amount of chakra, is a kekkei genkai, and screws over your eyesight, from a master of genjutsu." Now would it? [[Special:Contributions/81.131.231.87|81.131.231.87]] ([[User talk:81.131.231.87|talk]]) 13:27, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
-:::You're saying that Danzō wouldn't compare Tsukuyomi to a generic genjutsu because the stronger one is obvious, but Danzō essentially said that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is ''obviously'' stronger than the genjutsu Sasuke used.  There's a hole in that.   [[User:JQuinn|JQuinn]] ([[User talk:JQuinn|talk]]) 07:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
-maybe all of MS jutsus are meant to be practiced and master each with a level increasing every time a the user practice it or undergoes emotional distressed--[[Special:Contributions/200.59.28.160|200.59.28.160]] ([[User talk:200.59.28.160|talk]]) 04:58, March 21, 2010 (UTC)eternaluchiha95
-You all have very good points on why Sasuke's genjutsu isn't Tsukuyomi, but Madara has implied that he does have it. Sasuke says, during the Kage Summit, that the third eye power Susanoo is used when one has two Mangekyō, and later, Madara elaborates by saying one must have awakened Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. Since Sasuke can use Susanoo, we can then confirm that he too can use Tsukuyomi. ~<span style="font-weight: bold;" title="Ten Tailed Fox does not work for Wikia">NOTASTAFF</span> [[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ryun Uchiha]]<small> (Ten Tailed Fox, Getsueikirite-taichou)</small> <sup>([[User talk:Ten Tailed Fox|talk]])</sup> 16:03, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
-He wasn't arguing that Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi but rather that he didn't use it when he was fighting Danzo. It seemed like Danzo was comparing Sasuke to Itachi in Genjutsu skill. As he stated he compared Sasuke's "Genjutsu" to Itachi's "Tsukuyomi". Using basic English knowledge this does not indicate at all that Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi but rather that he used a genjutsu that wasn't on par with Tsukuyomi.--[[Special:Contributions/74.233.173.126|74.233.173.126]] ([[User talk:74.233.173.126|talk]]) 22:41, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
-Danzo just said "You'r genjutsu's nice but compared to Itachi's tsukoyomi it is nothing"
-== User: Madara? ==
-If mAdara plans on making an infinite tsukuyomi, why isn't he listed? {{unsigned|67.85.206.103}}
-:Because wanting to use doesn't mean he can use. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:30, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
-:: He can use it though. He has the Mangekyo Sharingan. He'll be able to use an Infinite Tsukuyomi after he gets the Ten-Tailed beast, however, he should have the normal one.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:44, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
-:::Having a Mangekyo Sharingan doesn't automatically make him a user, or else Kakashi would be listed too. The wiki also tries to avoid listing things that characters haven't used yet, such as the various Rinnegan jutsu for Madara. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 22:37, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
-== how to defeat Tsukuyomi? ==
-i have one question in naruto data book 2 , it was said that the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors , and the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.
-http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1304245&postcount=1
-and it was also said in fan book 2 that sarutobi hiruzen in his prime could defeat    mangekyou sharingan and EMs teqniques
-http://forums.saiyanisland.com/showpost.php?p=724345&postcount=1
-then is that means that it should be add to Tsukuyomi page ?
-or i got the wrong idea ? {{unsigned|41.233.51.107}}
-== Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi? ==
-In the episode "Truth" (I don't really read manga) Madara said that Sasuke didn't see anything true about Itachi, nor did he break any of his genjutsu. So, does that mean he can't break Tsukuyomi?{{unsigned|Aty123321}}
-:I think Madara was using a metaphor. Itachi pretended to wanting Sasuke's eyes and that he was a criminal, while he in reality wanted to save his brother and really was an infiltrator and a hero. Itachi's acting skills was like a genjutsu, one that Sasuke never managed to break. Also, sign your posts with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacce|Contributions]] 13:17, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
-There are 5 reasons Sasuke and no one else could break out of Itachi's Tsukyomi:
-. Sasuke has a sharingan (So does Kakshi but that did no good)
-. Sasuke is an immediate blood relative (that rules out a lot of the ninja world)
-. Itachi was weak due to his illness
-. Itachi did not intend to win (for all we know, Sasuke may have never broken out in the first place. Maybe itachi let him out and made it seem like Sasuke did it on his own.)
-. Plot device
-. {{unsigned|Akatsuki rulz}}
-== Unbreakable? ==
-Alright, let me get something straight, once and for all. Acording to Kakashi, Itachi and a particular Databook, if a non-Sharingan user is caught in Itachi's Tsukuyomi, he is as good as a drooling vegetable, is that correct? [[Special:Contributions/77.85.106.97|77.85.106.97]] ([[User talk:77.85.106.97|talk]]) 19:26, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
-== How much proof is there that TObi can use it? ==
-PLease I want to be sure. {{unsigned|41.206.11.14 }}
-:Apart from the fact that he said he was going to cast an infinite version of it on the world, not a lot.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 14:00, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
-== Wait a minute... ==
-I might not exist in this wiki, but I noticed something that bugs me. How is the <i>Shield of Black Flames</i> a combination of Tsukuyomi and Susanoo? It says in the "Derived Jutsu" part of the infobox that the <i>Shield of Black Flames</i> is a derived jutsu of the Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. I know that to awaken Susanoo you need the Tsukuyomi, but that doesn't mean that the Tsukuyomi itself is used in the Shield of Black Flames. I won't edit that myself in case you know something that I don't and I have it wrong. Also, on the SoBF page, Tsukuyomi is listed as a parent jutsu. (I am acting dumb. I know it's just an error. Please, don't think I'm dumb.) [[User:Max042599|Max042599]] ([[User talk:Max042599|talk]]) 23:06, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-The eye that possesses Tsukuyomi is used to shape manipulate the flames (Blaze Release) onto Susanoo. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:12, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-:(edit conflict x3) Your explanation was a bit speculative Skitts. Max, that's just a concept to show which technique requires which other technique. Usually, a derived technique is just a variation of the original, but in this case, it's different. Susanoo itself doesn't use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but awakening and being able to use them is required to use Susanno, so Tsukuyomi is listed as a grandparent technique to all techniques which require Susanoo. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:15, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-@Omni ? Isn't that exactly what C said when he questioned if Sasuke's was even more skilled with Amaterasu than Itachi? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:17, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-:Just because the manipulation comes from the same eye, it doesn't mean it's Tsukuyomi necessarily. I'd say that it would come from something that is broader than Tsukuyomi, which would be Yin Release, assuming it will turn out to be present in all genjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:21, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-But I didn't say Tsukuyomi was used to manipulate it. o.O [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:34, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-:I derped, I read that the left eye used Tsukuyomi to manipulate the flames, by bad. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:47, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
-== counter tsukuyomi ==
-i want to know the powers or ninja who can defeat tsukuyomi . is it limited to only skilled uchiha with shringan or one of its evolution ( mangekyou , eternal mangekyou , rinnegan ) ? or skilled ninja like hokages , kages and akatsuki members could stand a chance ? , because i did not get it from 2nd databook . please answer me and not deleting my post !--[[Special:Contributions/41.233.23.50|41.233.23.50]] ([[User talk:41.233.23.50|talk]]) 14:34, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-:This isn't a forum.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]]14:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-i know and i did not say it is , but i think it is said in 2nd data book that sharingan user and skilled ninja could break it , so i want to know .--[[Special:Contributions/41.233.23.50|41.233.23.50]] ([[User talk:41.233.23.50|talk]]) 15:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-and i read in saiyanisland translation for 2nd fanbook also that sarutobi hiruzen can counter every jutsu in konoha like mangekyou nd eternal mangekyou sharingan jutsu , so because i trust this wiki i want to know is that true ? , and if it is , so why it was not added to the page ?--[[Special:Contributions/41.233.23.50|41.233.23.50]] ([[User talk:41.233.23.50|talk]]) 15:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-:Countering doesn't necessarily means defeating, I think. Sasuke was able to break Tsukuyomi with just a Sharigan. Hiruzen is already listed as knowing about all the techniques from Konoha, that's relevant to his article, there's no point in going in all technique articles used by Konoha nin and adding that Hiruzen knew how to counter it. Danzō broke through Sasuke's Mangekyō genjutsu didn't he? Despite the discussions on whether it was indeed Tsukuyomi or not, it was a MS genjutsu, and he broke through it, no reason to think Hiruzen wouldn't be able to do it as well. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:36, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-i got it . so the only power is known untill now to break it is a skilled uchiha with a sharingan , but there are many methods to counter it like not make a direct contact with eyes like what guy did before . but untill now only a skilled sharingan user is needed to break it . ok i got it . thank you very much for answering my question and sorry if my words and punctuation was not good !--[[Special:Contributions/41.232.149.113|41.232.149.113]] ([[User talk:41.232.149.113|talk]]) 21:56, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
-== Bloody hand ==
-During the fight against Sasuke, when Itachi used this technique, the blood that got on his hands when he removed Sasuke's eye remained even after the genjutsu wore off, the same thing about the eyeball he took out (though that could be wrong). Shouldn't this be noted, it bears resemblance to the fact that genjutsu is presumed to be connected with Yin Release and the Second Mizukage's genjutsu after-effects '''may''' be similar to Tsukuyomi. [[Special:Contributions/119.154.70.207|119.154.70.207]] ([[User talk:119.154.70.207|talk]]) 15:02, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-What are you trying to say ?
---[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:18, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-: *sighs* Just wondering if every strong and powerful genjutsu can have effects on the real world, and noting that the blood in the genjutsu came to life. [[Special:Contributions/119.154.70.207|119.154.70.207]] ([[User talk:119.154.70.207|talk]]) 15:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-::Genjutsu is the manipulation of the brain through the manipulation of chakra flow. If the brain thinks something is happening to you then that becomes your reality. When the genjutsu is broken the brain regains normal function. But in cases when the genjutsu is extremely powerful(tsukuyomi for example) the brain would be in shock due to the stress that the genjutsu have caused. The genjutsu becomes the brain's reality as long as it's caught in the technique, but in the end, genjutsu is all illusionary. There is no known user who could turn illusion to reality. As for your first comment, there was no sign of blood on any of Itachi's hands after Sasuke dispelled his Tsukuyomi. Blood eventually got on his hands, but that's when Sasuke wounded him with the rigged Fuma shuriken and when he started coughing blood due to his condition.[[User:YonbiAzai|YonbiAzai]] ([[User talk:YonbiAzai|talk]]) 16:50, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-The only genjuts that affects reality is Izanagi
---[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:47, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-Kurama clan can turn genjutsu into reality but the blood on the hand after the genjutsu wore off is likely a mistake by the anime designers
---[[User:Zenryoku90|Zenryoku90]] ([[User talk:Zenryoku90|talk]]) 18:54, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-:Kurama clan also isn't canon. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:01, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-So filler anime isnt considered cannon? if not then my bad i was unaware, i was under the presumption anything related to the anime or manga be it filler or not was classified as cannon.
---[[User:Zenryoku90|Zenryoku90]] ([[User talk:Zenryoku90|talk]]) 21:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-:We list anime-only content in articles, but they're not considered canon. We list them because loads of people know Naruto only from the anime. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:45, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-Ahrite makes sense, cheers for clearing it up for me
---[[User:Zenryoku90|Zenryoku90]] ([[User talk:Zenryoku90|talk]]) 22:10, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-Something in anime-fillers may be canon though, if it uses manga as basics.
-Like Tobi while talking about his Moon Eye plan, the hosts and their tailed beasts were shown and as that was based off manga material it's canon.
---[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:52, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-:Anime simply shifts when something happens sometimes, and besides, they simply expanded on what the manga showed. When Tobi told that story in the manga, you see images of the tailed beasts in the background. Anime simply made it more explicit. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-That's what I meant, the "filling" is sometimes based on manga ... but the arcs themselves are non-canon, some are good though :)
-Also some are tricky like the 3tails one, the arc itself has expanded the capture from as shown in manga thus canon but the characters like Guren etc. are not.
---[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:24, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-:The subject was canon, but just that, as the arc completely deviates from the manga. Enough with the forum talk. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:30, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
-== Sasuke CAN'T use Tsukuyomi: Proof ==
-Read this guy's posts: http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=684165 {{Unsigned|Patsoumas1995}}
-:We are not here to discuss forums. Sasuke used Tsukoyomi on Zetsu IIRC. The forum is 2 years ago as well. —[[User:IndxcvNovelist|Indxcv]][[w:c:Naruto:User:IndxcvNovelist/Links|Novelist]] ([[User talk:IndxcvNovelist|Talk to Me]]) 12:05, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::Someone's random speculation is null and void here. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 12:24, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-Sasuke used simple Sharingan genjutsu on Zetsu. And both of you failed to understand what this guy says, if you even bothered to read it. I didn't post it to discuss. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 12:51, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:Sasuke's use of Tsukuyomi as seen being used on Danzō. Tobi himself stated that Sasuke's version was nowhere near as powerful as Itachi's etc…--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:55, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::It doesn't matter what that guy said, the databooks are a more reliable source of info than any random person on the internet, and the databook says that Sasuke has to be able to use Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. [[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 12:58, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-No. The databook says that for Itachi. The databook also says that Susanoo comes with Totsuka no Tsuruki & Yata no Kagami. Sasuke has none of those. The databook was released before Sasuke awakened the Susanoo. Danzō compared Sasuke's genjutsu with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. No one ever called Sasuke's genjutsu as Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi gives the user the power to control space & time in the victim's mind according to the manga & databook. Sasuke has NEVER done this. Seriously, did you bothered to read this random's guy post?[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 13:18, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:You expect us to take the words and beliefs of some completely random person who has never made any contributions to the making of Naruto over the official databooks? --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 13:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-I ask again: Did you read it? He is not saying his opinion, for fucks sake. He is analizing facts. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 13:24, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:I'm now going to ignore you because there is no reason whatsoever to curse because you aren't getting your own way. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 13:25, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::It's better that way. You obviously didn't read the post, which goes by everything the databooks & manga say, while you think it's just a guy saying his opinion. Seriously, This wiki is the best I've seen. The only think that goes wrong is the Susanoo "ingredients". Don't you get that the databook reffers to Itachi only? Sasuke gives a different explanation in the manga later. It's the only category that this wiki fails. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 13:37, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::You may be righy, or you may be not. But in this wiki, we use facts. And speculations from a random person, no matter how accurate or logical they may be, aren't facts. If we get PROOF, and with proof I mean a STATEMENT, not analyzing facts, that Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi, then we'll accept it.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 13:42, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-Is there any statement that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi? And by extension Madara using Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi? [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 13:46, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-By the way, Itachi got those mythical items and '''equipped''' his Susanoo with it, that was said from the manga. I'm not sure what databook you're reading, but it doesn't sound like it was published by [[Masashi Kishimoto]]. This conversation is moot especially since, like I said, Tobi said he used it, albeit on a weaker scale. CHAPTER 480, PAGES 4-5 (unless it's an incorrect translation) --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:52, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-"Itachi got those mythical items and '''equipped''' his Susanoo with it" Source?
-:"Tobi said he used it, albeit on a weaker scale" No, he said that Sasuke's '''genjutsu''' is weaker compared to Itachi's '''Tsukuyomi'''.[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 13:57, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:About Itachi. They said that Orochimaru searched for the Totsuka Sword all his life. This fact alone indicates that the item was well known, and that it was something that WASN'T created when Itachi used Susanoo for the first time or something like that.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:16, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Killer B at least--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:15, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:Not only he didn't call it Tsukuyomi, but Killer B broke the genjutsu that can only be broken by a Sharingan of a relative? -_- [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:18, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::Now who's the one who doesn't read? The Hachibi broke it for him.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::It doesn't matter if it was Hachibi, the Hachibi definitely isn't Sasuke's relative with Sharingan. The Hachibi used Genjutsu Dissipation, and it's confirmed that the Tsukuyomi can't be broken like that. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:25, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::::All Genjutsu are broken the same way: chakra dissipation. The only special thing the Tsukuyomi has is that, if you don't have a Sharingan, you don't get the chance to do it, because you don't have the time before the Genjutsu paralyzes you.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:30, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::::: No. Read Chapter 257, pages 6-7 [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:43, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-It's also better you don't read what was said in isolation. Read what Danzō says in chapter 478, page 8. That is what Tobi was responding to.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:22, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-Danzō says the same thing Tobi says: he compares Sasuke's '''genjutsu''' with Itachi's '''Tsukuyomi'''. But what is this that Danzō says in chapter 478, page 8?[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:26, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-On Killer B it was Tsukuyomi, on Zetsu it also was Tsukuyomi .. that's for sure.
-Likely on Danzo as well ... Sasuke's version is just weaker--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:31, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:Based on? When did Sasuke trap any of those in a genjutsu world?[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:34, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::Who said that Tsukuyomi had that specific effect? Maybe it was just the illusion that Itachi decided to create, and not the standard effect.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:36, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::The 2nd Databook (http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=22980039&postcount=195) "Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands."
-::::Trying to use literary language to prove something? We all know how the databooks are written, with as much "fluff" as possible to make the things sound cooler.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:42, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::::Now that's nonsense. Why isn't the first part I quotes literal? Can you prove that Sasuke's Sharingan genjutsus are Tsukuyomi? [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:46, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::::::Both Danzo and Tobi said it. It's your choice, to believe that they weren't talking about Tsukuyomi, but facts are: right now, we know three things: 1-Sasuke can use Susanoo. 2-Susanoo has been described by the author himself to require Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. 3-Sasuke has already been referenced to use Tsukuyomi TWICE. As I said before, we have facts. You only have speculation.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:50, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
--True
--And later the author himself said through Sasuke's mouth '''in the manga''' that Susanoo requires the 2 Mangekyō powers, which are Amaterasu & Enton for Sasuke.
--But Sasuke's genjutsu was '''NEVER''' named as Tsukuyomi! All the supposed uses are speculations with no real proof! [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 14:55, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:Honey. You have stepped from the realm of simply analyzing facts to strictly making things up. WHO in the world said that Sasuke's secondary Mangekyo power is Enton? Apart from your own, wild imagination? As far as I know, Enton simply comes from the fact that Sasuke is more skilled than Itachi with Amaterasu, therefore being able to manipulate it's shape.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 14:58, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::Honey. C said that Enton comes from his left eye, while Amaterasu comes from his right eye. Chapter 464, page 7.[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 15:04, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::Ok, sweetie, I'm going to put it very easy for you. You believe that Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi, and that his second Mangekyo power is Enton (about which we have NOT enough information to classify it as anything else than a derivation from Amaterasu). Ok. You can have your own oppinions, that is very nice and we respect it. But we are not going to add your speculations here. Unless you can bring SPECIFIC proof about those two claims (Sasuke's inability to use Tsukuyomi, and Enton's status as his second Mangekyo power), we are not adding anything. And with proof, I mean something else apart from quotes which can be interpreted in EITHER way. And seriously, don't try to continue with this, because we are not changing anything if you don't have that proof.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 15:08, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::::Do you have specific proof for Sasuke's ability to use Tsukuyomi? I gave my proof on Enton. Chapter 464, page 7. Check it, and explain me why this doesn't count. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 15:13, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-We are not continuing this discussion. We already have a databook explanation that says that Susanoo requires both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Sasuke can use Susanoo. 2+2=4. Unless you can prove that's not true, you have no point here. And about your proof, C just said that he uses Amaterasu through is right eye, and manipulate it with his left. I think I missed the part in which that translates to: Enton is Sasuke's second Mangekyo power. Oh wait, I think I get it. You have magical mind reading powers, and you can know what the author was referring to when writing those lines, right?--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 15:23, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:Wasn't Enton the flame manipulation? [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 15:28, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-::We barely know anything about Enton.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 15:31, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:::Anyway, I was wrong on this. By Enton, I ment the flame control. Flame control is the other power. I'm I wrong on this? If yes, why? [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 15:34, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-@Patsoumas1995 All you are doing is randomly speculating and making up all sorts of stuff that is pure nonsense. If your not going to listen to anything we post, we'll just stop replying to this discussion. It's spamming my mailbox unnecessarily. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 15:00, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-:You see, I actually thought that he had kind of a point (about neither Danzo nor Tobi specifically stating that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi), but when he decided all on his own that Sasuke's second Mangekyo power was Enton, I lost all faith in his common sense.--[[User:Kind-Hearted-One|Kind-Hearted-One]] ([[User talk:Kind-Hearted-One|talk]]) 15:02, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-I love you guys--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:57, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
-It just got real up in here //[[User:Filipinoboy97|Filipinoboy97]]
-== Sasuke's mastery of Tsukuyomi ==
-"Sasuke can also perform Tsukuyomi with his right eye, though his illusion is considered inferior to Itachi's Tsukuyomi since it does not alter the opponent's perception of time indicating he has yet to master it"
-How can he not have 'mastered' it when one clearly needs to master this jutsu alongside Amaterasu to achieve Susanoo. As per se the databook.
-I suspect this has come about due to Danzo's comment: Danzo compared Sasuke's Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi. The former doesn't manipulate the opponent's perception of time.
-If Tobi's quote has anything to do with it, then be wary that he only mentioned the 'staying power' of the illusion as opposed to how it alters the perception of time.
-Under the 'presumably' tag you can add Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on a Kumogakure shinobi to 'control' him to reveal Killer B's location. Similar to what Itachi wanted to do to Kabuto using the same jutsu.
-That said the entry of Tsukuyomi needs to be updated because it doesn't include the ability to 'control' the opponent as Itachi said it does.
---[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 09:08, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
-== Limited Tsukuyomi ==
-How are we going to reference it? From what I understand on what has been released about the movie, Tobi actually cast the {{translation|"Limited Tsukuyomi"|限定月読|Gentei Tsukuyomi}}, on Naruto and Sakura. Since we're not splitting the infinite variation, I don't think we'd split the limited one as well. This would mean listing Tobi as a user of Tsukuyomi, even if with a movie only tag, but that would put us in the awkward position of having to consider Tobi an MS user, at least in the movie-only capacity. For now, to avoid greater confusion and revert warring, which would only add to the editing chaos that is sure to come by chapter 600 or whenever Tobi loses the mask, I think Tobi should be mentioned in the page, maybe in a trivia section, but not to be actually listed in the infobox for now. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:05, August 7, 2012 (UTC)
-we should mention both "limited" and "infinite" Tsukuyomis in a sub-section of Tsukuyomi page + trivia about Tobi MS shit.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:41, August 7, 2012 (UTC)
-So?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:52, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
-The latest chapter confirmed Tobi can use MS. Since his plan involves casting a large-scale version of Tsukuyomi, he should know how to use the regular version. --[[User:Aged Goblin|<font size="4"><span style='color: Goblin'><font face="Old English Text MT">'''''The Goblin'''''</font></span></font>]] 12:01, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
-I agree, we should add Tsukuyomi to his infobox... but again, how Kakashi can't use it? O_O--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:11, August 22, 2012 (UTC)