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The four natures again

Since we discuss every possible addition to an article, I want to propose this: Hiruzen said that the TSB were made up of at least four natures and are similar to Onoki's Dust Release. Being similar to that, it's highly likely that they're made up of Fire, Earth and Wind. This leaves us with one missing nature. Here helps us another statement by Hiruzen: He says that the black orbs can change their substance similar to a fluid body. What missing nature is fluid? Correct: Water. So I think it's safe to say that the natures in this technique are Fire, Earth, Wind and Water. Whatcha say? • Seelentau 愛 10:34, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

I'd honestly be down but I get a lot of flack for using logical conclusions in my arguments.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:08, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
Then again, logical conclusions these days can be everything as long as the OP finds them to be logical. • Seelentau 愛 11:12, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
@Seelentau, If party going that way i recall that he said at least four, which can be five(correct me if i'm wrong) -some kind of Rinneton(lol) Rage gtx (talk) 11:16, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, he did say at least, so we should at least add those we can be sure of by going from his other statements about the TSB. • Seelentau 愛 11:21, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
Im convinced(Kuroiraikou (talk) 13:23, August 4, 2014 (UTC))
One thing: cannot lava(lava release) change its form like fluid without water? Rage gtx (talk) 13:29, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

You know my opinion, he was talking specifically about Obito's usage alone. But ignoring that, was the word fluid/liquid used? If so, then I wouldn't oppose us adding Wind to Obito's infobox.--Elveonora (talk) 13:46, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, because it's molten rock. But Hiruzen was talking about basic natures, not advanced ones. Elve, you're probably right, we haven't seen those weirdly formed TSB since Obito. What Hiruzen says is 液体のように形を変えて ekitai no yō ni katachi o kaete, which means similar to (a) fluid body (he, Obito) changes the form. • Seelentau 愛 14:12, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
If he actually used a kanji or whatever for fluid, then it was undoubtedly Water, because Lightning is more like a streak. So unless anyone opposes, go on and add Wind to Obito's infobox.--Elveonora (talk) 14:49, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
It would appear that, according to Black Zetsu's comments in chapter 689, Truth-Seeking Balls are made of Wind, Earth, Fire... Lightning, Yin-Yang, and... wood????? I guess in a way it's every basic element, but having a Kekkei Genkai as a basic component seems strange to me. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 12:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

He was talking about Kaguya's, why isn't it obvious to people every user's TSB have different natures?--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Water

Since it contains Wood Release, shouldn't Water also be a component of the technique? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I already talked it over with Ten Tailed Fox. Black Zetsu clearly separated earth and wood in his statement, so we'll wait for the Mangastream scan for more clarity, and the raws. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 06:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So how do we actually wanna play this?

Does every Truth-Seeking Ball have every element or only as much as the user?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 06:47, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Here's how I explained it to WindStar: "Wind, Fire, Lightning, Earth, Wood, and Yin-Yang were stated to belong to TSB. Zetsu was talking about Kaguya when he said "all natures and all kekkei genkai". It makes no sense for him to start listing natures only for him to then say it has everything. She has all kekkei genkai and natures, because, after all, not all kekkei genkai are natures and I highly doubt the TSB are made of Sharingans and Byakugans too. This also confirms she had the Sharingan because that is part of all kekkei genkai."
Take from that what you will. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 06:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure Naruto was only noted to have the Yang Release. Similar, Obito's orbs couldn't use the Yin-Yang Release until after he regain control of himself and consciously apply the nature transformation.—Steveo920 (Talk) 2:49, August 20, 2014
Doesn't work that way. We have confirmation on the natures required by TSB. No technique has ever worked the way you suggest it works and none of what you just said is actually stated or displayed by the manga. Tobirama clearly stated that Obito's orbs contained YYR, now Zetsu has given all of the TSB natures which includes YYR, and Naruto even said Kaguya's TSB was exactly like the ones floating behind him. All TSB have the natures we were just told. To dispute that any longer is no longer factual. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 06:55, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Does every Mangekyo Sharingan have every technique or only as much as the user? • Seelentau 愛 06:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea the context of that Seelentau. But I still question if we should go all "stick everything into TSB"now and Ten Tailed Fox black zetsu could have also just short listed the elements Kaguya had, not saying every TSB was those specific elements.w.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 06:58, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

In that case here is my suggestion, and I make this suggestion because we only have a few hours before a certain force shows up and this discussion gets inordinately stupid. We should list the specific natures we were given until MangaStream releases their version. If they don't contradict Panda, then TSB likely is made of all natures, since I agree with your point there, Ultimate. If they do contradict Panda, we'll leave up the current natures until Seel or Suzaku can get us a literal translation and advise us further. I also ask that we lock this page because edit warring will definitely be a thing in the morning. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 07:01, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
And @Foxie explained it pretty well to me. Well, Kaguya's TSB could start a new dimension according to BZ, not Naruto's (so far), and Naruto has Yang Release, I don't think we should add Yin Release to Naruto... WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 07:03, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Every user can use a technique in different ways. Naruto and Minato's different uses for Rasengan for example. But Naruto quite clearly said that his TSB are the same as Kaguya's, so they're made up of the same natures. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 07:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, please don't go stupid. If every user's TSB are all natures, then Naruto has Wood Release, which he clearly doesn't--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

This. That's why TU3 removed the natures from the TSB article and locked it, for we are not too certain about the Tailed Beast Skill just yet. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 09:07, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Mangastreams translation doesn't make this easier... • Seelentau 愛 09:42, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Mangastream makes it sound like BZ is talking about all advanced natures KKG rather than KKG in general. Also he says "their" suggesting she has Wood Release, while the 9 TB have the other advanced natures, as I suspected--Elveonora (talk) 09:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Why must she have Wood Release, though? • Seelentau 愛 10:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Fits her better than any of the Tailed Beasts, with Ten-Tails being wooden/plantish and the Shinju a tree and all--Elveonora (talk) 10:47, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe in order to use the TSB one needs to combine a minimum of 4 natures which is what Obito did. Once Obito was able to control his powers better he was able to either add or focus on the Yin-Yang portion of the tech for its anti-ninjutsu effects. Kaguya, someone who probably who has had more time to get to know her powers(talking about the time after consuming fruit and before being sealed by her sons) and therefore know more of its in and outs and can use more elements and now non-elemental kkg in its make up. Just noting that each user has had the nine-tailed beast in them in some form, so one can draw the chakra natures from them when needed. Minimum 4 maximum of everything.Umishiru (talk) 14:54, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I'm 19824264165% positive that Naruto's TSB are only Wind Release.--Elveonora (talk) 15:27, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
If that's not a joke, then that's ABSURDLY ridiculous for a number of reasons. Riptide240 (talk) 15:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
No, it isn't. I already explained this thousand times, but just for you:
  • Naruto's TSB haven't turned anyone into dust yet (no fire and earth)
  • He hasn't used complex shapes with them like Obito did (no water)
  • He is yet to nullify ninjutsu with them (no YYR)
  • He expanded and threw his TSB as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken, which was Wind Release only
  • It can't be as simple as having Tailed Beasts inside him with those other natures, because as we have observed, he has to ask them each time he wants to use their natures. So if what you say were true, he would need to be asking them constantly to make his TSB and when the TSB are active, he wouldn't need to ask for their natures at the time (yet he did), because he would already have them.--Elveonora (talk) 15:37, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Didn't we decide that the Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken wasn't a TSB technique? Not only that, but I'm curious as to how you think wind release can become a malleable, self-sustaining, physical structure with black colouration. --Atrix471 (talk) 15:38, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
TheUltimate3 did for personal reasons, not "we/us". the TBBR was clearly a TSB. It's black because the Ten-Tails' chakra is likely black? I'd even compare the TSB to Rasengan, just with the Ten-Tails' chakra. The natures it uses are whatever the user can or wants to use at a time.--Elveonora (talk) 15:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Your argument is, once again, ridiculously ABSURD.

1. Because he has made shapes(the staffs) they dont have to be complex

2. He hasn't used them directly on anyone so we wouldn't know if they could disintegrate. And if he did, it was against Madara and Kaguya who are probably immune to them just as naruto is

3. We don't know if they can nullify ninjutsu or not because, once again, he's fighting the two people who host the Ten Tails' power and are immune to it's effects, including nullification since the Juubi's power is mainly senjustu

4. And he asks for their natures because he can't use them seperately while it's in TSB mode/form. Massive debunks here Riptide240 (talk) 15:52, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yes he has to ask the tailed beast for their chakra but that seems to be if he wants to use their unique abilities. He could be on an unconscious level merging a minimum of 4 elements for his TSB. Then again being that the tailed beasts are being treated as partners rather than chakra slaves like Madara, Obito, and Kaguya are/were doing, they could be mixing the elements for him for his TSB until he calls on one of them for whatever ability he needs. Then again seeing as Kaguya used the TSB get rid of the excess unstable chakra, maybe they act as stablisers for those with with the 9 tailed beasts inside of them by absorbing the chakra or being formed by the excess chakra being released outside the body.Umishiru (talk) 15:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
I'm just gonna let this fight work itself out. The page is already locked so go a head and tire yourselves out.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:54, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Riptide

  • You can't assume he can form complex shapes
  • You can't assume he can disintegrate things
  • Youcan't assume he can nullify ninjutsu
  • Assumption

Massive debunks here--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

How am I assuming? Everything I said has been done or shown before.

  • He actually made the staffs
  • He's actually using them against Madara and Kaguya, who are immune to them
  • He actually can't nullify someone's ninjutsu if it's senjutsu like Madara's and kaguya's

And if you're saying that i'm assuming that he can because im saying he can't do it now, then you're assuming that he can't do it and making a completely baseless assumption when there should be no reason why he can't do what the others have done with their TSBs: Counter Debunk (idk why i find this fun) Riptide240 (talk) 16:03, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

You can't assume he can do something others can unless he does so. And there are reason why he can't. Do you want to assume that he has Wood Release too because Kaguya's do? Do you want to assume he has YYR because Obito's did, despite Naruto having gotten only Yang Release?--Elveonora (talk) 16:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Ahem, slight correction. Zetsu has now put the YYR in Kaguya's TSB too. Never shown negating anything either. Carry on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 16:10, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Because Senjutsu users are immune to the negation. The difference is that we've been told that Kaguya's YYR, while we haven't about Naruto's.--Elveonora (talk) 16:12, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Correction again. Naruto, in both translations, said her balls were exactly like his and Sasuke said the only difference was size. Carry on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 16:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, it's the same technique from the same source, no reason why it should vary from user to user. Both Obito and Madara used the shapes and nullification, Kaguya can now and Naruto stated that hers are the same as hisRiptide240 (talk) 16:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Same as his in appearance, so same technique, not same effects--Elveonora (talk) 16:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong again because he said they were EXACTLY THE SAME just size difference. And neither of us would know if the effects were the same cause we just haven't seen Naruto nullify yet and disintegrate, and we probably won't since she's immune to it Riptide240 (talk) 16:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Elv: Except that wasn't what was said, but I digress. As Ultimate said, the article is locked, the RAWs will provide the answers, so I (and the others) have no need to convince you. Have a nice day. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 16:23, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
How can he tell they are exactly the same? Does he have a microscope or something? Or perhaps a Sharingan? Oh dear, both his and hers are black orbs so exactly the same in appearance. That doesn't mean they are the same in effect, there's no way for Naruto to tell that hers have Wood Release or anything for that matter inside--Elveonora (talk) 16:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
He's a sensor. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:28, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, but Sasuke can, and he said the only difference is... wait for it... size. Maybe try reading the chapter again? Might help refresh your memory. Also, Naruto says her balls are the same as his; not that they "look" the same. Big difference. But I have a job to go to. Later everyone. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 16:29, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Also, BZ said ALL Kekkei Genkai (Nature Tranformations). MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
@Elv Yes but I think Naruto and Sasuke would know since Sasuke has a Mangekyou and a Rinnegan and Naruto own those things as they are his own chakra constructs. And they didnt note any other differenceRiptide240 (talk) 16:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

You and I are the same, we are both human. You and I are the same, we are both male. You and I are the same, we are both editors here. You and I aren't the same when it comes to other things though. So "the same" doesn't necessarily mean in every single regard--Elveonora (talk) 16:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Once again for clarity, Naruto is a sensor and they're his balls. Sasuke has an eternal Mangekyou and a Rinnegan. Plus, BZ told them everything about hers so Naruto's statement basically says that everything he heard BZ say applies to his own Riptide240 (talk) 16:35, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have had enough of this fanon bullshit that certain people have wrought here. Tell me exactly from where did Naruto get Wood Release and Yin-Yang Release. Until then, your word is completely valueless. Even if we assume he can use the Tailed Beasts' natures for his TSB, none of them are known for Wood Release or Yin-Yang Release.--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

1. Plz calm down, this is just a small debate to come to a conclusion, not that serious
 2. Where do you think Kaguya got Wood Release and lightning release?
	
 3. Where do you think Obito and Madara got YYR?

 4.Where did Madara got lightning Release and Storm release when we never saw him use any of those before hosting the juubi's chakra?

 5. I'll answer that for you: they didn't until one moment that they all share, they gained the ten Tail's chakra, which is also senjutsu
	

Naruto Has the ten tails' chakra by combining senjutsu with the nine tailed beasts, which is confirmed by Madara that he has the same power as him. That would very well explain where they got those natures from, since the Ten Tails and kaguya are the progenitors of chakra and (by default) there natures Riptide240 (talk) 16:55, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Until any of the 9 Tailed Beasts uses Wood Release and YYR, you can't say Naruto has it and that he's got it from them, because that you know, is speculation.--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
What im saying is thatthe nine tailed beasts chakra is now the ten tails chakra, and thats a fact Riptide240 (talk) 17:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Not really, BZ mentioned Wood Release, YYR and 5 basic natures. He didn't mention Lava Release, Magnet Release, Ice Release and so on, obviously because Wood Release and YYR are in Kaguya but not the 9 Tailed Beasts--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think BZ actually meant wood release comes into play on this. Wood release is composed of earth and water, and as the TSBs are an advanced nature in the first place, I don't think there's such a thing as making an advanced nature within an advanced nature. I think he was simply illustrating that it encompasses all natures and is the highest level of nature transformation. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yup Riptide240 (talk) 21:08, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

And either way i already debunked your theory on Naruto's TSBs being wind release only wrong so..Riptide240 (talk) 21:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

One cannot "debunk" @Elveonora. He'll keep coming. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 21:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
I didn't see you debunk anything--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
It got debunked when we found out that Naruto said his TSBs were the same as Kaguya's. And Wehn I said that you're granted extra chakra natures when you host the Juubi's chakra. It's not possible for his TSBs to only be wind release since t requires at least 4 natures Riptide240 (talk) 21:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

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