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Split - damn it...

Well, I guess we have to move this page back to Tobi and seperate all the madara uchiha history... There is also the fact that the summoned madara knew about Nagato... SimAnt 11:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

This from the fact that in the recently-released chapter 559, Uchiha Madara is already dead and apparently an entirely different entity from the one running around as "Madara" with the Sharingan and Rinnegan. This really wracks up all of the editing/narrative-building we've been doing here. (sigh) Magatama90 (talk) 11:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Well we don't know the entire story behind those two because It'd seem that each knows the other, but I think they are good enough articles to stand on their own. It seems like the right course of action in any case.---Cerez365Hyūga Symbol
I agree. --Ilnarutoanime 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Consider this an Executive Order. For now, we do nothing. Cerez is right, we don't know the whole story. For all we know Masked!Madara could have split off from Dead!Madara to stay alive longer. Could have simply stolen his identity. We don't know. The last thing we need is to start gutting and splitting, and rearranging crap until we know for sure.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Madara has already defied expectations several times. Dying and deciding he can still run around either through some crazy reincarnation, or simple body theft doesnt seem to far off.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
He may also do something crazy like Orochimaru. Ilnarutoanime 11:45, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Hell he could BE Madara. This is why this is stupid. And will require the precision of a surgical knife as opposed to a Decapitating Carving Knife.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I can also speculate who is in the sixth coffin. This will have LOTS of speculations! --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
In all liklihood the real Madara was who was in Coffin #6 and that was why Tobidara was so freaked out. 173.180.66.225 (talk) 15:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I can't wait to see people ranting that Tobi is Obito again. Maybe Madara knew Muu's spliting technique too ( it's not impossible being as he fought Onoki.. it wouldn't be a stretch to say he fought Muu as well possibly, giving him access to the technique by copying it with the sharingan. ) and split himself at some point ( like when he fought the 1st Hokage ) - then one half got killed while the other continued to live and age with half of his original power. But then again.. I don't suppose Muu's splitting jutsu can split one's soul? And unless it's some sort of a translation error - the ressurected Madara is aware of Nagato's existance, which means he died after the later was born ( 35-ish years ago at most ) and not when fighting the 1st Hokage ( 80/70-ish years ago? o.o ) It's all very convoluted to me >.<

````--Thandurill (talk) 11:56, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

So, what should we do? Separate the two articles? Come to a conclusion already. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol 11:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Simant. We should separate it now. I speculate that this is a fake Madara. Maybe the one who is in the sixth coffin is the resurrected Madara. This is just my speculation.--Ilnarutoanime 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

If the MaskedMadara was "split" from the RevivedMadara, then when Kabuto showed him the 6th coffin why would he call Kabuto a mad man? Surely he wouldn't of over reacted in such a way? I've got a feeling they're two different people but I'm not jumping to conclusions. I say we leave things as they are for the time being and see what the next chapter says and we can start with these changes to things, yes? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:02, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

That was the plan.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
@SusanooUnleashed, maybe the two were different people, but how about the sharingan? Didn't he also came from the same clan? (Just speculating)--Ilnarutoanime 12:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Then let's stick to it. Instead of name changing articles and stuff :) SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

For now, all we have to do is impatiently wait for the next chapter, I hope there's NO delay. ----Ilnarutoanime 12:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

@Ilnarutoanime; There is a lab full of Sharingan. Sharingan can be transplanted into anyone as we've seen. But like I said, no need to jump to conclusions and this isn't a place for speculations. Let's just wait and see. It's better to be correct the incorrect xD SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:11, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Someone check the spoilers of chapter 561, that say Tobi revived Shisui, Kikaku and Fugaku. They say Tobi's name is Tobdara. I think it's simply untrue. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol 12:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
How can there be spoilers for 561 and we're at 559? Don't believe all the hype that's to come- stick to the topic at hand.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol
yeah, I also think it's totally fake. They were just fan predictions I suppose. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol 12:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I hate to say this, because I'm fully aware of the impractically involved in doing so, but I believe it would be totally inappropriate for us not to split the articles between Tobi and Madara respectively. As far as the information we have available, it confirms that Madara is indeed dead and that any argument to the contrary is purely unfounded speculation at the current time. I understand people's reluctance to perform such a move, but there is absolutely no guarantee that we will receive confirmation next chapter, or that the individual in question will be revealed to be Madara rather than simply someone else. I really don't see sitting on our hands as that viable an option, as everything points towards the information needing to be separated at one point or another. Blackstar1 (talk) 12:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I say just create a new page for madara, add the background details and Confining the jinchuriki arc and Shinobi World War Arc's info that he has been resurrected. We'll add more info when other chapters are released. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol 12:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately if this page is intended to be split, it isn't as simple as that. Numerous links on a large amount of articles also need to be altered to reflect the change, which at the moment I believe to be the only reason why some are reluctant to perform the move. However, I don't hold impracticality alone to be a good enough reason for us to simply wait and see. Blackstar1 (talk) 13:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Reserved. In class for three hours. (TheUltimate3)--131.118.85.215 (talk) 13:35, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
I have a few questions. Firstly, did anybody realize that the resurrected Madara seemed to know Nagato? Secondly, how and why? Lastly, i feel that the "Real Madara" and the "Imposter Madara" are completely different people and of completely different chakra. Now if you guys had noticed, Ao mentioned that a NEW presence has arrived alongside Mu. Ao should recognise the "Imposter Madara"'s chakra signature so he sensed that this new presence has a different chakra signature. This is prove enough to show that clearly Tobi and Madara are two different people and not ome stupid Split Justu. (Sasori35)Sasori35 (talk) 13:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Whether we split the article or not, there are going to have to be some major, major changes in the future. It's obvious now that the whole Tobi–Madara thing is as complicated as people have feared it was. There are so many possibilities right now that it's not even funny any more. Are Madara and Tobi two completely different people? Are they split somehow? Is Tobi not as human as we thought? Are they, perhaps, still connected in a way? After all, Tobi mentioned before that he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei for him, and now Madara was actually expecting that Nagato had revived him.
This is, perhaps, the greatest revelation in the manga so far and we have to handle it with great care. Still, I think a split might be the best course of action. It's going to be a long and difficult project, but I'm sure we can pull through just fine. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 14:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Sho, I'm with you 100% of the way. Let's split the articles. But as you said, this is "the greatest revaluation" and "with great care." If there's any way I can help, I will help. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
I think we can do a split. But I was wondering, if a team could be assigned to the the initial separation (like have the sysops lock Tobi and Madara) and then others can contribute when they're completely serrated?--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
What should we do then? Create a new page named "Madara Uchiha", transfer the background of the previous article, add the two arcs, rename the previous article as Tobi. "OR" do vice-versa. akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 14:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
As far as I know, this is the admins call. Whatever they decide, we should just go with no fighting or edit war. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
I also agree entirely. Yes, it is a huge undertaking but I fully believe that this wiki has the community to handle such a project and one that would do so with enough care, to ensure that the split is done both accurately and in its entirety. Blackstar1 (talk) 14:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
We would turn the redirect page "Tobi" into an article, simple as that.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 14:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
lol :D akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 14:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
I support the splitting of articles as well, for reasons already stated above. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
So, should we do it now?? or wait for tommorow when more editors approve. I say tommorow. akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 15:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The two are almost certainly related in some way due to Nagato comments made by the both of them. Damn you Kishi. You've been keeping us wondering just who could frighten Madara and it turns out to be...Madara. xD When I saw the Uchiha crest I was like "Izuna?!" Nope. This will have to be handled with care. I don't think Kishi would just have us believe that Tobi managed to fool Itachi, Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato, and Konan into thinking he was alive. Not to mention, I doubt he'd have said all of that stuff to Konan, whom he was about to kill, if he wasn't him. Hopefully next week (so far away...) will bring answers. Skitts (talk) 15:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'll admit that the Nagato remark complicates matters somewhat, however, I still believe a split would be the most appropriate action. I would suggest that any information which is even remotely ambiguous to who it refers to, is instead moved to Tobi's article, where it can remain rather isolated until we get further confirmation that might prompt it to be moved elsewhere. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
This is going to end up a mess. I can feel it in mah bones. I still say we wait until next chapter, under the same assumption we use the "Presumed Deceased" label. But if it is clearly the minority then so be it.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 16:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with TheUltimate3. Waiting until a possible confirmation next week is best and prevents any revisions we would need if it turns out that they're both Madara...somehow. I second the 'Presumed Deceased' label. Skitts (talk)

I also agree with TheUltimate3. For all we no Tobi could be the result of Madara's jutsu or something.--Deva 27 17:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

so in the end we split? or we just leave it be... just some random guy that is mostly inactive on this wiki

Tobi is so far not 100% confirmed to be Madara. This is due to the latest chapter of naruto, chapter 559. Personally I believe we should give Tobi a page for himself, because he is not Madara.—This unsigned comment was made by 98.110.19.44 (talkcontribs) .
In the end... we wait. Just have some patience people, this isn't something we can rush. It may seem like nothing to you, but there's a lot of "did Tobi or Madara do this" that has to happen.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
I'm fine with supporting the deferral of a split for a further week, but only in the case that such a decision is made because of the difficulty in deciding where the separation of information should occur, due largely to the Nagato remark. However, I don't support any action which points towards these individuals both being Madara. Although it remains a possibility in the absence of definitive confirmation, there is no evidence to support such a claim as of yet, so it would be simply speculation on our part and thus shouldn't be included in the wiki. Blackstar1 (talk) 19:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A split doesn't seem like it would be very difficult. ~SnapperTo 20:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

@Snapper2 Except, that we'd have to go through every article and confirm which did what. Skitts (talk) 01:03, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
On the contrary: I think that would be even easier than the split itself. In 95% of the cases where a "Madara" is mentioned, it is in reference to Tobi (or someone wearing a mask, who it is simpler to refer to as Tobi until there is evidence to the contrary). The 5% that should remain "Madara" are easy to guess: Hashirama, Konoha, Nine-Tails, Mangekyo, and the like, and even then the Madara coverage is largely restricted to a predictable section(s). It's just a matter of ShounenSuki running his bot and then partially reverting the bot for the handful of exceptions. ~SnapperTo 02:41, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
^ =O Snaps! I tried to come up with a meaningful addition but... Snaps! ^_^--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 04:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i think we should rename this guy tobi and make another madara uchiha page for the real one, since it was obvious in the last chapter that "tobi" and madara aren't the same person.Dionit (talk) 20:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

If I may interject, wouldn't it be easier to move this section into a forum or blog? I'm not exactly familiar with this wiki's rules, however it makes sense that a talk page be used to ask simple, small questions that don't extend further than 3-5 posts.--SalmanH (Talk) 15:18, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Split now or Wait till next chapter Holyn (talk) 01:37, October 15, 2011 (UTC) I suggest we just wait until next chapter... in the meantime we could edit it to reflect the recent changes... for all we know, its some technique or something. hec it could be nagato for all we know.

Except it couldn't be Nagato. He's permanently sealed in an eternal genjutsu. Just thought I'd point that out. Skitts (talk) 09:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Despite disagreements on whether to split or not, new information needs to be added in the same format as the current article. SimAnt 15:25, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot it but can Tobi use Mangekyo or not.If he don't then he isn't Madara, but someone from Uchiha, or maybe someone who implanted Sharingan. I think, but I never had observed Tobi carfuly, he didn't had Mangekyo or Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu, or Susano, so if he didn't used during Minato vs Tobi, and dind't used against anybody, than he is not Madara. Tobi is someone who uses teleportation jutsu, but Madara in his prime time didn't used teleportation. Also, if Tobi had colected Harshirama's DNA, from Madara vs Harshirama, than Tobi maybe didn't fought Harshirama, maybe he was and Uchiha who pretended to be on Harshirama's side, and during healing his wounds, he took blood. Maybe Tobi was a child during Madara's prime time. Everything can be possible, but in time of five weeks or maybe longest until February, we will know what or who Tobi is exactly...YamatoTakeru (talk) 15:57, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I vote that we keep tight untill things settle down and everythings clear.

Name change

I nominate we change the title of this page back to Tobi, in light of the new chapter—This unsigned comment was made by 78.33.55.238 (talkcontribs) .

Me too. --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

That makes three of us. It'll make things less confusing.--Hockey Machete (talk) 11:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Next 2 chapters are mostly based on Lee and Sakura. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol 12:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

"Madara" not being Madara would certainly explain (and feel free to corect me if im wrong) why we have never seen Madaras MS or EMS in the curent story line, and also to some extend why he is always hiding his face. I do have my personal theory, but since this isnt the place for this (and no, i dont think he is Obito :P), ill just say i dont think the Madara who is alive really is Madara, but i still think we should keep the article like this, until we know more, simple because it would be a huge work to move it now, just to have to move it back next wednesday. --Cosmikaze (talk) 12:37, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this "Madara" is someone else than "Madara" in latest chapter, but I agree with Cosmikaze that even it si obvious, it will take a lot of time. Lets wait another week for more :) Definitely the living "Madara" must be as long as the dead "Madara", when knowing this all about Senju, Uchiha, Sage of the Six Paths, Juubi etc. Also, as Cosmikaze said, it explains that living "Madara" didnt showed his Mangekyou Sharingan (thought I think he has it) nor is hiding his face very well, and that he was blackmailed by Kabuto. I think that the sixth coffin was in fact real "Madara", a proof that the living is not the real one. And for theory, I think that this is in fact Izuna, but lets wait for the next chapter :)
PS, Kishimoto give me a good example of the posture for my own character with the one Madara has in before-last page, even the clothes. --VolteMetalic (talk) 12:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A question but do you think when Madara said that Nagato was supposed to save that jutsu to revive everyone killed in Konaha he meant in order to revive his own body.—This unsigned comment was made by 131.94.226.245 (talkcontribs) .

Answer- Not a forum.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it was Izuna who fought Hashirama O_O Oh, God ... I mean Kishi--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Like Databook 3, Madara Uchiha and Tobi should have different character entries, and this chapter proves it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Just a passerby, but it seems like all this arguing is overlooking the simpler option of simply putting a banner at the top of the Tobi and Madara page indicating that "In light of recent chapter(s), the data in this page is subject to change based upon future revelations in the cannon. Thank you for your patience!" Then you can section/retitle/remain any data as necessary as Kishi slowly bleeds out the data we're all starving for over the next year. ItachiWasAHero2 (talk) 19:32, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I am somewhat flattered you would use my name and add a "2" to it, but I am also offended because that was the ONLY thing you changed. No creativity my friend? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:47, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Madara isn't Tobi

Will there be a Tobi page and a Madara page, since Madara isn't Tobi after all. Check the chapter 'Reinforcements Arrive...' I'm confused...—This unsigned comment was made by 95.150.133.146 (talkcontribs) .

#Split - damn it...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

There will be a lot of material to move from one page to another. That's for real. --BGMaxie (talk) 15:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

According to the latest chapters (559), Madara Uchiha is not actually Madara Uchiha, so, would it not be better to split this page into the Madara Poser and real Madara? The Forgotten (talk) 16:08, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The 559th chapter suggest that the "dead Madara" was the one who gave Nagato his powers, since he first thought he was brough back to life thanks to the "outer path". That would mean he survived decades after the fight against the First Hokage. The most consfusing moment is the meeting with Kisame : the man claims to be Madara, has long hair, and even shows his face to the swordman so that he can recruit as a spy inside Akatsuki. And years later Tobi uncovers his face to him again, confirming that the one who gave him orders was indeed Tobi. If Tobi isn't Madara, where did he get all those informations about Madara's history, ideology, feelings, when did he swap with the real one? If Tobi is Madara, then that means Madara exists as 2 entities: one dead and the other one on the real world as an "empty shell". In conclusion i think you should keep the page but create 5 parts : 1 - Madara Uchiha : history until is defeat against Harashima + Resurrection 2 - The 4th Mizukage's Manipulator : who recruited Kisame 3 - The Fist Masked Man : who attacked Konoha and met with Itachi 4 - Tobi : the goofy member of Akatsuki 5 - The Last Masked Man : after Deidara's suicide until now.

Then you just have to say that 2,3 and 5 claimed to be Madara. --Ardeau (talk) 22:22, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

A Non-Tobi-Isn't-Madara Question

I know the raws won't be out for a little while, but was it made clear which Naruto that Madara was heading towards? By that, I mean did it say he was moving towards one of his clones? I'd assume that t wasn't so clear, but I don't think he could possibly know where the real one was. Skitts (talk) 16:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I would asume he is moving toward the Naruto that is with Bee, especialy since it wasnt stated that he moved toward Naruto but the Jinchūrikis. --Cosmikaze (talk) 16:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Tobi is moving towards the Jinchūriki (the real Naruto and B, as it were), while the reincarnated Uchiha Madara is standing before Gaara's squad with Mū. 66.220.139.79 (talk) 16:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi can still be Madara

First off, everyone is always saying "anything is possible in a manga/anime." The 3rd OFFICIAL databook stated that Tobi is Madara. I don't know about anyone else, but to me if a databook is official, that means the information in it is correct. My theory after the last two chapters: Madara split his soul so he's two different people. This will support the databook, the quote to Naruto "My goal is to become complete.", and the revived Madara. Until Tobi reveals his identity, no one can really say he's not Madara. —This unsigned comment was made by 76.106.146.190 (talkcontribs) .

I can also speculate that it's just Madara's body. --Ilnarutoanime 17:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Since it was Edo Tensei'd at least part of his soul had to be with him though. And sorry I forgot to sign the post76.106.146.190 (talk) 17:46, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Yes... I agree with your post. Just next time don't forget to sign your posts. --Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Sometimes the databook does do some odd things and revisions, such as Wood Release initially being a Hiden technique and later a Kekkai Genkai. Skitts (talk) 17:50, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
It's like databooks sometimes mades us curious.-Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Databooks don't reveal things ahead of where the manga is at release. Example, the first Databook reveals nothing about Kyubi's ability to sense negative emotions, or Jiraiya having Sage Mode, or the abilities of Sasuke's mangekyo. The other things you've said might prove to be true, but since we don't know right now: It's only speculation. Ferlize (talk) 17:54, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but of course, databooks are just our guide. --Ilnarutoanime 17:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Yes but to rely on the information from a 3 year old book is folly.--Cmcwiki (talk) 02:51, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Just to support this, Tobi and Madara obviously know each other. How do I know? Because of Madara's words, "So it FINALLY happened. Looks like that little brat Nagato was able to grow." This means that Tobi and Madara MADE this plan together!76.106.146.190 (talk) 18:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 18:28, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, this has a possibility to go either way. Madara was said to have died against the first hokage, he has the outfit he wore at that time on. But every person has said Tobi is Madara, the Kyuubi, Itachi, Kabuto. But Onoki was able to tell the Edo was Madara. But nothing should be changed or added until we have more information on both Madara. Id say though that they are both Madara.Skarrj (talk) 18:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'd go with the whole "Madara died during the fight with Hashirama" as a benchmark, but the person that Itachi met looked awfully a lot more like "Madara" than "Tobi". But effectively, everything the masked person did was Tobi and everything else is Madara apparently. To me, Tobi seems like he might be exactly like Hashirama's Living Clone with a consciousness.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:27, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't. If Madara had died during the epic battle, he wouldn't know Nagato. I believe that Tobi killed Madara, stole his identity, and continued operating to revive the Jubi. Madara thought he was revived by Nagato's Rinne Tensei and so he was surprised to find out it is Edo Tensei. Back to business. I think we shouldn't change anything until more information is revealed. —This unsigned comment was made by 80.179.184.165 (talkcontribs) .
But 3rd Databook intruded the Madara and Tobi as seperate characters. I will add a quotes from the article "(despite Tobi and Madara being the same person, the databook gives them separate entries): ". I think, that we should split up a article. Later, if we'll must, we add back to one article. Sorry, if my English is wrong.GothicWarrior (Dyskusja) 20:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Best thing to do would be wait until the next chapter is released and see what is revealed. Than decide if articles need to be split, in my opinion.Highvalour 21:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
The thing is, despite the third databook giving separate articles to Tobi and Madara, both those articles state that Tobi is, in fact Madara.
From Madara's artice: "Madara disappeared from history and, donning a mask, started moving as Tobi." (歴史から姿を消したマダラは、仮面を被り、トビとして動き出す。, Rekishi kara sugata o keshita Madara wa, kamen o kaburi, Tobi toshite ugokidasu.)
From Tobi's article: "Uchiha Madara — That is Tobi's real name." (うちはマダラ——それがトビの本当の名前だ。, Uchiha Madara—— Sore ga Tobi no hontō no namae da.)
I too think separate articles are best for now, but that in no way means they are actually separate characters. There is far too much evidence that suggests they aren't. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 21:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the databooks are written by editors, not Kishimoto, and they don't spoil stuff that won't happen for another couple hundred chapters. What were they supposed to say? "Oh, also, Tobi is only pretending to be Madara, but try and act surprised when Kabuto summons Madara in chapter 559!"
And frankly, for all the supposed evidence, I've always had the impression that Tobi wasn't exactly who he said he was, considering of course Kabuto's dialogue with him when originally summoning his 'trump card', and the way in which Tobi frequently refers to himself as being Madara, but in the third person ("I am the Uchiha Madara who did this and that!" and so on)... 66.220.139.79 (talk) 22:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
The databooks are written by Kishimoto-sensei himself and although they generally don't spoil things, they also don't state things as clearly as the above-mentioned examples if they are going to be proven false later on. Kishimoto-sensei has had no trouble leaving things open, ambiguous, and uncertain in the past.
And I agree that doubt has been cast on Tobi's identity, but not as clearly and often as you think. Him referring to himself as Madara in the third person is actually very common for overly arrogant bad guys. Sesshōmaru from the Inuyasha series does it as well, for example, and there is zero doubt about his identity and there never has been. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 22:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
You sure about that, ShounenSuki? I just checked the credits at the back of the Character Books, and they say the books were edited and compiled by the staff of Caramel Mama Co., LTD. (a company which writes, edits, and compiles various guide books), while Kishimoto is only credited as the creator of the original work. 66.220.139.65 (talk) 02:48, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

actually there have been hints that mask madara might not be the real one for some time. kabuto refers to madara in the third person when explaining the edo tensei to mask madara, for instance, and when kabuto, summoned the former akatsuki members, we knew it had to be someone whose abilities, identity or sheer power had leverage over mask madara. personally ive been wondering if mask madara is actually the brother for some time. —This unsigned comment was made by 76.102.17.129 (talkcontribs) .

People have been misinterpreting Tobi's reaction to the sixth coffin for a long time now. Tobi was never afraid of it. It was never about the sixth coffin being able to overpower Tobi. Instead, Tobi was both repulsed and surprised that Kabuto was capable of summoning the sixth coffin and the power it held over Tobi was not strength, but information. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 22:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I say we should split it into two pages, even if they are both Madara. For now, anything is quite possible, maybe Madara split himself into two when fighting Hashirama and one half died and the other didn't? We just don't know yet. Splitting the page into "Tobi" and "Madara Uchiha" would make more sense since then we would be able to follow the actions of each in the manga. --GoDai (talk) 23:01, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should wait until the next chapters come out. --C.L.- The Real Ultimate Lifeform 23:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Something is strange, Edo Madara just mentioned Nagato and thought Nagato revived him before he realized what is going on. Mask Madara mentioned wanting Nagato to do just that. Perhaps he is ticked off because Kabuto has control over potentially the strongest nin out there in the war under his control. Perhaps that is why he called Kabuto a mad man because that wasn't thr form of revival he had in plan for Madara's soul.Umishiru (talk) 03:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i agree, we should wait and see how this plays out in the next chapter, since creating two separate pages would be seriously involved, and we dont know if they are actually two different people at the moment. and to shounensuki above, yes you are correct, thats why i was trying to say the mysterious coffin gave kabuto "leverage" over madara. sorry if that wasnt clear, yoshiyuki17

@66.220.139.65: I'm quite sure, yes. Kishimoto-sensei is specifically listed as the author of all the data, fan, and art books, in the same way he is listed as the author of the Naruto volume releases. Caramel Mama only compiles, edits, and designs the books. All the information and art in them still comes from Kishimoto-sensei. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 09:52, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think Tobi isn't Madara, but someone who idolized Madara. Think abouth it who can hate Senju and Konoha more than Madara and would kill all Uchiha, someone who was close to Madara and idolized him, maybe a son or someone close, who was thinking Uchiha was traitors and hated Senju and Leaf for death of Madara.Sasuke now idolizes Itachi who he hated so maybe it is the same situation.Tobi knows everything about Madara, so maybe he saw when real Madara gave Nagato Rinegan, and he used his chance.And as Tobi has Sharingan he is Uchiha, Zetsu never called Tobi Madara, and he is the closest to him. Now maybe Tobi inpersonated Madara after his death, maybe he is Madara's son or related, because related and family people hate all people who are conected to their beloved and idols, and that is common for Uciha that kind of hate. For all we know maybe Tobi isn't Uchiha because if he could easy transplant rinnegan into his eye maybe he could also transplanted sharingan...YamatoTakeru (talk) 10:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Though I believe Tobi is Madara in one form or another, I suggest splitting the article just for following actions of both Madara's more easily.Faust-RSI (talk) 14:05, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Madara is some kind of relic for people in Naruto manga. He was only capapble to fight Harshirama.Okay we can say what we think, but until next chapter doesn't come out we don't know what is actually happening because we can't confirm, like with Neji.Theory about Zetsu transformation was true but also a lucky shoot, aldo some people here said it was obvious, noting in this manga is obvious until it is conformed by author trow manga. So nobody shall do nothing until we get confirming in a form of chapter. Also if everything is clear in managa than it would not be interesting. Theory is just a theory, can be changed like we saw in recent history. So until next chapter or maybe next arc or the end of whole manga, because this will not be settled so easy.Logic will not help us eider because it is all Kishimoto's fiction and his imaginaton, also nothing he said in interview or Kishimoto's history won't help eider, only time will show. Beside, nobody died, it's just some lame trick or something that Kishimoto like to do...YamatoTakeru (talk) 16:10, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is safe to say that this manga didn't reveal much either. So can we please stray from any more speculation. We don't wan't random readers to accidentally go on this "informative" site and start making random guesses and assumptions because contributors couldn't wait for a "real answer". Like many before me have stated, this is not a forum. And as for the articles, they should still remain the same until we have confirmation. Or at least until a manga comes out that completely lies to the readers. Dj q-pid (talk) 14:18, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image

Madara Uchiha

Madara as he appeared during Konoha's founding.

Considering the issue raised in the last issue (ha ha! pun!) wouldn't it be reasonable to replace the infobox image with one that is indisputably Madara? I would suggest moving the attached image up into that spot. Not only would it be the safely accurate thing to do until this mystery is cleared up, it will remain so for the life of this wiki. I'd do it myself but I don't want to spark an edit war. -- Boradis (talk) 23:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
As you can see by the above topics, we're seeing how and when we'll split the page. That image in particular comes from a cover page, so it's not really an infobox type of image. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't necessarily need to be that image, it was just the first one I found. Nevertheless, as the identity of the man in the orange mask has been deliberately thrown into doubt by Kishimoto himself, the current image is inappropriate for the article's lead spot. At the very least a better caption for it would be "A ninja who claims to be Madara." --Boradis (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've already uploaded an image for the infobox of Madara Uchiha, if the articles are split. akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 03:33, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

It needs to be an image from the time he wore the red armor, as he wore it after that and it was his latest known true appearance besides the manga. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:11, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
I think that manga image of him should suffice. The only good anime image of him looking like the Madara we know is in black and white.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 22:46, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

What ever happened to the picture of Madara when he was young like the one Izuna Uchiha has?TailedBeast (talk) 03:02, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

During Tobi's speech to sasuke about the truth of the Uchiha and Madara's past, he is shown a few times in his red armor, are there any good pics from those episodes? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:14, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Nope. He's only in armour one time during the time he clashed with Hashirama and he's all bloodied and stuff.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 13:01, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Nagato Should've Resurrected Madara

Page 2 of Reinforcements Arrive…!! Madara states that Nagato should have had something to do with his resurrection. Should we place that in somehow.—This unsigned comment was made by Yatanogarasu (talkcontribs) .

No. It is already well known that Nagato can revive people. Also, we're still in the process of deciding whether or not the article is going to be split between Tobi and Madara. Actually, it could probably be given a small aside. Skitts (talk) 05:24, October 14, 2011 (UTC)
Wouldn't that have been mentioned already since Tobi said the same thing though?--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 12:46, October 14, 2011 (UTC)
There are six active sysops on this wiki and none of them can find the energy to add one sentence about Rinne Tensei? Or even {{false info}} just to mollify all of the teenage angst full-protection creates? ~SnapperTo 19:16, October 15, 2011 (UTC)
Lol. You guys are more of the "watch them squirm" types. In any case I've found that recently we just wait until the next chapter before acting...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:19, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Madara Six Paths

Do Madara six Paths have his powers or the tailed beast powers?70.180.106.99 (talk) 21:12, October 14, 2011 (UTC) Lil rob

Given that they're revived- we have no idea.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 21:13, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Highly implied as the reason they were resurrected in the first place(but i guess technically they could all just be talented by coincidence). Gaara has shown that tailed beast skills don't go with the lose of the beast,and the Gold and Silver brothers have showed that it applies to resurrected shinobi.I'ed say its a safe bet to say they have their the powers. 68.88.4.134 (talk) 22:08, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Temporary quell?

I'm not too sure how necessary this is now that there seems to be a temporary quell in the whole Madara/Tobi uprising, but we have three days to go before the next chapter is out. So could a Sysop just either add the {{False info}} tag or just make a note that "we're aware of the recent revelations but we're waiting for the next chapter so we can put two and two together, bear with us" etc...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 20:30, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

You guys will keep this article undefined for the next five chapters... Or you think that Kishimoto will reveal Tobi's real identity in 2 chapters? —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

We want to split the article, we haven't done so out of fear some plot twist reveals both are Madara and having to merge everything again. We want a bit more info before making any changes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:51, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
I doubt we'd wait for five chapters to take action. But we're not going to be acting off three pages.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 01:19, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

The Rinne Tensei part has a point. Even if we're not sure about anything, the plot events from the chapter, we should mention. Right now the final text in the plot section is extremely vague and doesn't really cover the "Then who is the man behind the mask" thing that the protagonists are asking. --GoDai (talk) 05:04, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Another chapter, nothing revealed... Just more and more questions... More four chapters and my theory will be right. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

Tobi doesn't appear in this week chapter... More three chapters and my theory will be right. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

Yes you are a smart guy. did you figure all that by yourself? —This unsigned comment was made by Holyn (talkcontribs) .
Yup. Just wait and you will see.—This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

One more chapter, Tobi's identity is still unknown... More two chapters and my theory will be right. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

Naruto will fight with Tobi in 2 weeks! But who is Tobi? More one chapter and my theory will be right. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

I guess the next chapter will reveal Tobi's face when his mask broke apart, as Naruto head-shot him. --Ilnarutoanime 18:37, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Your "X more chapters and my theory will be right" is highly boring and useless. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:19, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I see it tells us a possibility when everyone will shut up an' stop their theories 'bout Tobi's Obito an' other bloody stupid theories. X29 02:24 November 10 2011.

Well, my theory was right after all. Now we just have to wait for Naruto and B defeat the new Six Paths, so Tobi will show his face. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

Madara's/Tobi's weapon and possible tie-in to Tobi/Madara debate

Just Pointing this out... Tobi is currently brandishing a fan like weapon that Madara seems to also wield in flashback images. Interesting since Tobi is supposed to be Madara according to data books. The person that looks like Madara (the Madara we've seen in flashbacks) on top of the cliff next to Mu never confirms that he is Madara, he speaks of Nagato as though he knew him, and Mu never outright calls him by his name he just says the person behind the impure world resurrection has a strong understanding of the war. The only person that says he is Madara is the 3rd tsuchikage. At first I thought the bio should be split but now I think that it should wait for confirmation and perhaps just a disclaimer explaining that that Madara and Tobi may or may not be the same person. It's too early to jump to conclusions and all the excitement is causing fans to jump the gun. --tetra sol 06:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

You obviously didn't understand Mu if you didn't get the obvious implication that he is Madara. We know for a fact that the resurrected one is him, as confirmed by Mu, Onoki, and Kabuto. Skitts (talk) 15:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing further to understand as far as Mu goes. The only thing that was revealed in the last chapter was that there are two who claim to be Madara. Personally I don't think Tobi is Madara and that the real Madara is next to Mu but as this well proves we shouldn't be so eager to jump to conclusions when in fact we know very little. Madara's appearance only raises more questions. I don't see a point to splitting it right now with so little development as far as the real Madara goes. --tetra sol 19:24, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Time for a Resolution

It's time we decided on a course of action here. We can wait all we want, but it isn't going to make the situation any less unclear or difficult.

Despite the fact that I personally believe both Zombie-Madara and Tobi are Madara Uchiha — the fact that Zombie-Madara was revealed so soon after Mū's splitting technique is a bit too coincidental to me — I do think it would be best to split the current article into two. Even if the two end up being the same person, having two articles wouldn't be a problem, as they have different roles in the series and joining articles is generally easier than splitting them. If they end up being two completely different people, we're going to have to split the article any way. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 16:56, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support splitting the article.--Deva 27 17:00, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I am also with splitting of articles. akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 17:02, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I also support the splitting of the Articles as the Zombie Madara and Tobi do take up two totally different purposes as well as zombie Madara eluding that Tobi is behind his revival as seen on Page three of the manga chapter. --Fenix-fukutaichō (Request an Audience) 17:04, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I too am in agreement. Skitts (talk) 17:05, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Give me one moment...--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:08, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
Ok my take. Create a Madara Uchiha (disambiguation) page which will list
  • Tobi who took Madara Uchiha's name after his death.
  • Madara Uchiha the deceased founder of the Uchiha clan
  • Madara Uchiha (chapter) because now he is a chapter
  • Happy Fun-Time Drinking Party because Kishimoto and Tite Kudo makes mew want to drink heavily until my liver shuts down.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:11, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
Considering that, for all intents and purposes, the abilities and intentions of the resurrected Madara Uchiha and "Tobi"-posing-as-Madara are radically different, it would be more viable for cataloguing purposes to split this article. Chapter 560 shows how Zombie-Madara awakened the Rinnegan on his own, which is outside the capacity of the one posing as Tobi. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, to be honest. Although, considering that convoluted plot twists would actually show that they are actually, STILL, both Madara (just SPLIT), we might want to archive the current coding of the article for the mean time. That being settled, I endorse the Tobi-Madara split. Magatama90 (talk) 17:12, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
Clearly they should be split -- even if they turn out to be connected somehow, there are two characters running around claiming the name of Madara right now with different powers and motivations, and no matter what is revealed later they're each going to need their own article. There's another problem, though. Split where? That is, which parts of this go into which article? When does Tobi's story split off from the zombie-Madara? Probably the best place to split is just after the fight with Hashirama, since we know whoever attacked twelve years before the start of the series was already wearing the mask. But it's not certain. Another issue: Madara's name is used for Tobi everywhere on the wiki. Probably a sweeping change should wait until we're more certain about who is what, but it's going to get confusing eventually if not addressed. --69.203.8.96 (talk) 17:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support splitting the article. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 18:07, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

"...this is HIS doing... He definitely has something in mind... but what? things don't seem to be going according to plan ver well." That statement confirms Madara and Tobi are 2 different people. Madara has the Eternal Mangekyo, which evolves into the Rinnegan on Will. Tobi I believe only has the Mangekyo as seen in the Kyuubi's eyes when Tobi controlled it, because the eyes didn't look like that when Madara controlled the fox, look at the manga colored image, and they eyes don't look like that when Sasuke controlled Manda. So Tobi's right eye has the normal Mangekyo Sharingan and The left eye has the Rinnegan. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I see no situation where, once split, the two articles would need to be merged together again. Even if Tobi turns out to be a genuine Madara, he has been autonomous from the original for too long to pretend that they are still the same person. For convenience's and common sense's sake, they should be regarded as separate entities.
As for where to split, I suggest anyone wearing a mask be regarded as Tobi until proven otherwise. I have already split the article along those lines. ~SnapperTo 18:45, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I also support splitting. Just put a warning of "False Information" on both articles. —This unsigned comment was made by Guilherme Abe (talkcontribs) .

Odd, since the mangekyo sharingan for Izuna on this wiki is identical to the one Madara used in chapter 560.--SalmanH (Talk) 19:39, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

So Snapper split the Madara bit. Someone can follow suit [without touching the actual article] and split the one for Tobi as well and present it for review.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:44, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I think the connection between Tobi and Madara can be made a bit stronger in those articles. The third databook leaves zero doubt about Tobi and Madara being the same person, after all. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 19:54, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
I think, I have to disagree with you this time, ShounenSuki. I don't realls know how to describe it in English, but let's give it a try: The Databooks are only true until the Manga says otherwise. In this case, Madara was Tobi up until now, because the Databook said so. But in the next, it will be otherwise, because now we know that the latest Databook isn't true anymore. Databooks tell the truth about the Manga chapter they cover, but most people like to take the as the one and only trustfull source for anything. This said, I agree to split the article, since the newest chapter strongly suggests that Tobi isn't Madara at all. Seelentau 愛 20:00, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
But like you said. The Databook's always have old information. We will know if they are the same for sure when databook 4 comes out. Either way their articles need to be split as like Snapper2 said. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:58, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
I too think they're the same person. The fact that they know each other is just a plus. To me, Tobi's probably "Madara Uchiha's living clone- with a consciousness" it's the only thing that explains what is his apparent bodily make in my opinion. This seems like a twist that Kishimoto has had in mind for a long time and has been dropping subtle "hints" here and there to us. I really don't like the idea of another Uchiha being Tobi at all, in all honesty it's just lame...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 20:13, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
The databooks do contain 'old' information that can be overturned with a simple manga quote, but when it comes to character backgrounds, I have never seen the databooks state something as clearly as this if it wasn't true. Hell, even at the time the third databook was published, the whole Madara–Tobi situation wasn't clear yet, but the databook still had nothing of doubt in them. I'm definately not saying the databook couldn't be wrong about this, but it would be highly unusual and uncharacteristic of Kishimoto-sensei's writing style and the Japanese language in general. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 20:21, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
I don't know ShounenSuki, the third databook has a great hint about Tobi and Madara as two completely differents being, I talk about the two different profiles for each one. Anyway it's a question more complicated, beacause personally I think that Edo-Madara is not dead after the fight with Shodai beacuse he has known Nagato (and in the last chapter is implied that at the time of his prime he hadn't the Rinnegan yet). Futhermore now I think that when in the flashback we have seen Tobi (during the revelation to the young Kisame, during the Kyuubi's attack, or the conversation with the young Itachi), the mask is not enough for saying that the man was Tobi, I think that the real element able to make the difference among the two characters are the hairs (that strangely Kishimoto has drawn inconstantely long in the Kisame and Itachi part, and short in the Kyuubi and in the present part): http://imageshack.us/f/638/madaratobinelpassato.png/
In the last I think that Tobi could be a part of Madara (in the mind or in the sprit, the corpse could be that of anyone with Zetsu parts) but also Izuna: I think that the greatest hint in the manga is that page: http://imageshack.us/f/10/madaraoizuna.jpg/ ;The body language of Madar when he talk about the self sacrifice of his brother and his spontaneous offer of his eyes (in contrast with the version of Itachi, that will be likely that true, with Madara that take the eyes by force) suggest heavily that or Tobi feel remorse for the fact (so he is a part or has memories of Madara) or feels resentment (so he must be the brother Izuna with memory of the fact).
I know that what I've said are only hypothesis, anyway I don't think so improbable or unreal, but for now we can only discuss using them--JK88 (talk) 20:23, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support the notion of splitting the articles under the masked=Tobi, unmasked=Madara notion as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:36, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Loving the split :) Timeel39 (talk) 01:32, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I still don't think the split is good. I mean, there are two Zetsus (White and Black), but they got a combined page. Same here, Madara and Tobi may still be one entity with two different bodies, like Zetsu, more or less. So unless we have absolute confirmation that Tobi and Madara are two completely different people, we should continue to keep it in one page. Just use subheadings to separate the "two people's" abilities. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 02:48, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Personally I would prefer not to split. As such, if they do happen to be one in the same, then the articles can be changed (again) to reflect that. If they are indeed two separate people then we just save ourselves time later.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 03:01, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
So, what should we do? Since there isn't enough confirmation that Madara and Tobi are two completely different entities (like Black Zetsu and White Zetsu), we should re-merge the pages. Like when Mu split in two, it's not like we created a page like "Mu's split double" or something. Another prime example, Sakon and Ukon are one page despite being two characters, due to being too similar and close to split, same case for Madara and Tobi. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 04:55, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
I mean, here's a theory: let's say the revived Madara is just a portion of the still living one (Tobi) (i.e. he somehow split his soul, and while he died he left a piece of his remaining soul on earth). This theory is as valid as "Madara and Tobi are two completely different people". So with both ways being equally (in)valid, we might as well not be so hasty in splitting the page until we have absolute confirmation, when the living Madara arrives at the battlefield to confirm everything. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:01, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
If you're not confident enough to add the false info template, then you really shouldn't split it yet. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:07, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
I'd say when in doubt, look for precedent. The third databook gave both Tobi and Madara a separate article, despite them being revealed to be the same person before. They're even said to be the same person in the databook articles themselves.
As I said before, even if they're the same person, it'd be no problem having two articles on them. Not only are there now two instances of Madara walking about, these two Madara also have different roles in the stories and will most likely have somewhat deviating backgrounds. Two articles will allow us to detail that without too much confusion, and we can always merge them again if needed.
I think split articles on the two Zetsu wopuldn't be such a bad idea either, by the way, but that is an issue of lesser importance. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 09:31, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should wait for more info on Zetsu before splitting or not splitting his article. After all, there is very little info about the black half at the moment. As to Madara, I like the split. Even if Tobi is actually Madara/his clone/has a part of his soul, they still have two very different and distinct roles. --kiadony --talk to me-- 10:05, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if we're confident enough to split the two (with the two different entries in the third databook, and then with the theories/facts/whatever in the recent chapters), then can we remove the "false info" template on top of both Madara's and Tobi's pages? If we're confident enough to split, then there's no need to put that template there, or we should re-merge them if we lack confidence that we have to put that warning template there. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 10:41, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Even if it were to be merged back together, it would still need the "false info" template.Bastian964 15:58, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Fire Style

It was shown in Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 that Tobi could use Fire Style. Should this be included in the article with "Game Only" next to it? Diamonddeath (talk) 22:30, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

No. The games are ignored in the articles due to discrepancies and such. Skitts (talk) 23:02, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

There are other articles where "Game Only" is applied, or at least I think so, unless they were all removed. Diamonddeath (talk) 05:24, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Kirigakure Affiliation

Why was the Kirigakure affiliation removed? Kisame still identified Tobi as the (real) Mizukage and he was shown in flashbacks as such. Timeel39 (talk) 01:38, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Gonna say it's an oversight and put it back in. It's clear he was the shadow leader of Kiri for a while.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 02:36, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Elements

I haven't checked who added it or why, but Tobi has been given all of the basic elements in his infobox. If we're going to do that for him, who only recently had the Rinnegan implanted versus Madara who awakened it, I don't see why they shouldn't be added to his as well. Skitts (talk) 17:08, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Those shouldn't be there. At first we listed those because of the Rinnegan, but then we saw that Rinnegan doesn't automatically gives you all natures, it just gives you the potential to easily master them. Nagato was explicitly said to have mastered all, Tobi and Madara weren't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:16, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, it had me confused for a bit. Skitts (talk) 17:32, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

New profile image

Yes?—This unsigned comment was made by Dr.Pancake (talkcontribs) .
File:Tobi's eye.PNG
Start by adding proper license and fair use, then it can be considered. And sign your posts. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 05:28, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

Done. Dr.Pancake (talk) 05:57, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

Previous image is much better. akz! ANBU Symbol (talk | Images) 07:17, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

While I was thinking it'd be nice to have one that shows his Sharingan, he's at an odd angle in that image.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 11:37, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

The image currently on the page is much better. The main image is meant to show the character as they first appeared, Tobi's sharingan was a revelation, just like Kakashi's. His sharingan was not seen until some time after his introduction and as such should not be shown in the main image.--Soul reaper (talk) 14:12, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I thought it would have been more suitable to have the profile pic more zoomed in to his face like most of them are, that was mostly why I chose this one. Dr.Pancake (talk) 19:46, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

I'm actually inclined to agree. Tobi needs a new photo. I mean the page obviously says "one of the main antagonists of the series" And we need to acknowledge that he isn't the same guy he was when introduced. He's one of [if not the main] antagonists of the series. I mean I know this is a different community, but looking at a site like the One-Piece wiki.. I really don't see Blackbeard wearing his debut clothing in his photo. Just saying.. everyone identifies Tobi with his Sharingan now. Just some food for thought, but I agree.. the first image sucks. I had something more villainous in mind, like this.
File:Tobisinister.jpg
But then again, it's late and I might not be thinking clearly. There definitely isn't anything 'wrong' with the original picture, but I think we could do better in the "sinister" department. Tobi's definitely not the casual guy he used to be, even after he started posing as Madara he didn't really do much.. so now that he actually is taking his spot as a villain, it might be good to give him a new photo. --M4ND0N (talk) 06:17, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
He doesn't need a new image, the current one serves it's purpose fine; gives a good profile picture of the character. Anything that makes him look overtly sinister, or just plain distorted is not a good image to use.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:47, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
yep. the infobox images are meant to be like a picture for an ID card or profile picture, whatever how it is called. most articles follow this standard, also there are some rules to infobox images and whenever possibl they are followed Holyn (talk) 23:58, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

Background

Does anyone agree with me that the beginning of Background section has too much about madara? Ok, tobi claims to be madara, that doesn`t mean the article has to give madaras background as well..

if the article was split is because they are considered separate entities. so if the user wants to know more about madara, just click on his name and go to his page. for example that part about "before the era of ninja villages "bla bla bla, is too much.

The background section should start only with something like "A masked-individual known as tobi "bla bla bla and we make the adaptations necessary, without madara`s background..Holyn (talk) 23:34, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

For starters, there isn't that much there, only a paragraph's worth of info. The main reason that it is there (I assume) is because Tobi and Madara are obviously connected based on statements made by each and that we have yet to learn whether or not they are in fact different individuals. Also, Tobi claimed to have obtained some of Hashirama's DNA when he battled him, claiming to a dying Konan of that and that he was Madara. We'll wait to see what happens in 561tomorrow, if anything. Skitts (talk) 00:06, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hatred towards Hashirama

Shouldn't we remove here that he hates Hashirama? Because the reason is not yet cleared. --Ilnarutoanime 16:22, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

He has stated before that he hates Hashirama in his recounting of history to Sasuke and during his conversation with Naruto as well I believe.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 16:26, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, thanks! --Ilnarutoanime 16:42, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Another voice actor in dub.

Been watchin' a Shippuden episode (105, The Battle Over The Barrier). In it's end I saw Tobi runnin' through the forest, then he saw the Three-Tails 'bout to kill Guren. He stopped an' watched for a couple seconds an' said "Well, looky here". The voice actor for that line is different than the one for the 'Tobi' personality, am I right? X29 21:09 November 7 2011.

I agree with you, that does pose some questions... I guess If tobi really is madara, that would make sense. I also think everyone is making this harder than it proberly is, I bet it's just something simple... I think you are right XD --~Life is just part of the cycle, and in death we are only admitted to another phase of this unjustified torture... (Do you dare talk to me?) 06:01, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Edit War

It seems an edit war has sparked. Can we fix that? --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 04:51, November 11, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

I bet it's something simple...

Forgot to sign sorry --~Life is just part of the cycle, and in death we are only admitted to another phase of this unjustified torture... (Do you dare talk to me?) 06:03, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi is Tobi

I think that with the latest chapter its clear that Tobi is not Madara somehow. If he was, he would still continue "I'm Uchiha Madara" childplay. Instead he now is no one, so I think the false information statement can be removed. --Elveonora (talk) 11:54, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

No, I think we should wait until he reveals himself. Which we now know he will because he said to Naruto he'd "have to work for it". So let's just be sure, before we make changes. I know it's annoying, we are all fans after all and we're getting annoyed with the wait, but that's all part of reading it isn't it? What's the point in reading/watching something if you know the outcome? xD SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:57, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear it's not Madara at all. --Elveonora (talk) 12:01, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

But we don't know that do we? There's been alot of twists to the story as of late. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:02, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

He said his old name was Tobi. Pain said his old name was Nagato. I think its safe to say Tobi and Madara are two different people. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 19:10, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Your example contradicts what you're trying to point out XD Anyway, I say that until we have more prove as to who Tobi is we shouldn't change the page. Joshbl56 19:19, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't we are not comparing the characters, we are comparing the fact they both said what their original, old names were. "Pain" said Nagato, "Madara" said Tobi. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 03:44, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi's Eye Shape

Shouldn't it be noted in Trivia maybe that Tobi's eyes(particularly the left one) look exactly identical to Madara's? I am surprised to not have seen that tidbit on this website...it's not a general eye shape, Uchiha Madara's is pretty unique..or is it not worth it considering we'll most likely found out who he is in a few chapters(end of the year cliffhanger). Fan151.198.114.191 (talk) 02:48, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

That there would be what we call "junk trivia".--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 02:55, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

How is it junk considering his identity is a major part of the current plot? You are saying the shape of the eye is merely coincidence? Fan151.198.114.191 (talk) 02:59, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

No, just that it's not necessary to be stated since that can just be something you see personally that isn't there for any one else. Did you know that Darui and Killer B's Cousin look alike? Which might mean that Darui is related to Killer B and if Jinchūriki-Kage relation trends are being followed then B is actually related to A by blood some way which makes Darui related to A? I hope that explanation helps.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 03:09, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

They actually look nothing alike, in my opinion, and I am assuming you are just saying that because of your "personal view" comment? The difference between Darui and Bee's cousin and any other character similarities compared to Tobi/Madara is that Tobi stated that he was Madara and clearly has a connection to him and was able to do something that only Madara was able to do(control the Kyuubi with the Sharingan) and they both apparently know each other, and those are just some of the correlations. The connection between Madara and Tobi is definitely stronger than the example you gave, as we all know. The shape of the eye is definitely not a coincidence or "junk trivia" in my opinion and if you look at their eyes side by side, it's quite clear that it is the same shape(preschool nonsense), but it isn't apparently, to the leaders/regulars of this site..... so there is nothing I can do. :(Fan151.198.114.191 (talk) 03:16, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Ah there it is:
They actually look nothing alike, in my opinion
. That's when the bottom of your argument fell out. I know the two men have a connection but we can't start doing stuff like that.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 03:32, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

You can do stuff like that considering everything I said, the people on this site just choose not to for whatever reason. The eyes are the same, we all know it, it's not a vast opinion, it's ABC logic. If you place both of the eyes next to each other, there is a clear resemblance in the eyes, anyone denying it should probably be deemed retarded(I am not trying to be rude with that word, just honest, emphasizing the obvious) and it definitely would not hurt to put it in the trivia considering the strong connection between Tobi and Madara. Darui and Bee's cousin was a terrible example(like seriously lol?). Anyways, didn't really come to fight, just thought it would be nice to see it in trivia considering everything we know.. but I guess that isn't enough. Thank you for the interesting discussion. Fan151.198.114.191 (talk) 03:44, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Their eye shape has no major effect on the story. It's pointless to make speculation and add unneeded trivia to the page as "eye shape" is not noteworthy in any fashion. You also failed to understand Cerez's point in his analogy; he is stating that pointing out something small that they interpret as "Major" is what would classify as Junk Trivia. If by some chance, their eye shape is touched upon, I congratulate you on your astounding discovery and will personally deliver a trophy to your doorstep.--Hohenheim ☯ Talk ☯ 04:00, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, I did not understand his analogy, much like most of the rules regarding how information is presented on this Wiki. All I am saying is that noting the shape of his eye being identical to Madara's won't hurt anyone considering the information we have on the two, whether you put it under the appearance tab or the trivia tab.. You know it's worthy of being on here, so do I, the rules of this wiki, created by whomever won't change that and the fact of the matter is, it is identical and it should be obvious to anyone that it was no mistake by Kishimoto. Just because some view that piece of information as meager doesn't mean everyone does and what the leaders/members of the Wiki decide not to post doesn't mean they are correct in averting and downplaying said information. Everything does not have to be directly stated to affect the plot majorly, this is a manga, you can draw(no pun intended) information from things based on what is drawn too, not just said.

If Tobi does turn out to be a clone of Madara of some kind, meaning their identical eye shape wasn't just a coincidence and the eye shape was indirectly referenced, I will hunt you down and remind you to come to my doorstep and hand me the trophy, trust. When we find out his identity and I am proven to be wrong, make fun of me all you want. Fan151.198.114.191 (talk) 05:29, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


From a wholly objective point of view, Madara's and Tobi's eyes are draw pretty much identical, with the only difference being that Tobi has more wrinkles under them. If there are any two characters that can be justifiably compared, it's them. I wouldn't mind even an entire section devoted to a comparison between Tobi and Madara, outlining all their similarities and differences. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 07:56, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

After actually comparing images, I retract my past statement. I see what you mean with the eyes, and as Shounen has mentioned, the wrinkles under the eye. I second the article, or even a page of comparisons and similarities between Tobi and Madara. From the eye shape and the deep seeded hate for the senju, to the power of controlling the Kyuubi. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 10:05, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I support such comparison and listing their connections/similarities. I'm pretty sure Tobi is Izuna, since now I think its obvious he abandoded this game already. If he was Madara splitted in 2 (like Mu) then both would be Madara. If he was a Zetsu clone with Madara's mind, he still would be Madara. Now he pretty much confirmed he is not, because he is no one. And its more or less given that 2 brothers look very similar (Naruto mistook Itachi for Sasuke for a second) --Elveonora (talk) 12:57, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a hint?

I've just been looking through the pages enjoying a read before I go to bed, and I think Madara and Tobi are linked (more then the obvious that has been stated). We all know Madara fought The First Hokage, but Tobi also stated how it was truly "him" (whether it be Madara or Tobi), who won the fight at The Valley. Now I don't know if this wasn't changed when we split the pages or not, but prehaps it was a hint towards them being linked. Sorry if this sounds like a "forum" sort of post, but I thought it was something someone else may have noticed also? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:09, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

When two sides are fighting, the true winner is the third side watching and waiting to strike. Looks like Tobi was able to get hold of Hashirama's DNA, he meant most likely this. --Elveonora (talk) 13:13, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Mangekyo mention

Tobi says that he wants to complete the Eye of the Moon plan, which entails casting an Infinite Tsukoyumi. As Tsukoyumi cannot be cast without the Mangekyo Sharingan, shouldn't it be mentioned that Tobi is implied to have a Mangekyo? Or at the very least, that he can use Tsukoyumi without needing the Mangekyo? Nate Alter (talk) 08:29, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

He has the Mangekyo, he used it to control the fox entirely, just like how Danzo planned to with Shisui's Mangekyo, and it is clearly stated that tsukuyomi is a Mangekyo Sharingan only technique. Tobi has the Mangekyo Sharingan and if half the people on here were as smart as they think they are they would of put all this together by now and agree with you and me.72.66.90.246 (talk) 11:02, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Where exactly did you see Tobi with this "Mangekyo" Sharingan that you speak of? Have you ever thought he DOESN'T have the Mangekyo, and if you were smart enough you would of put together that maybe that's why he wants Sasuke to sync with the Demonic Statue? Hahaha. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:06, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think he has mangekyou, that's why he need Sasuke. We have never seen it.--Elveonora (talk) 15:45, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand something... where are people getting the information from that Tobi requires Sasuke for his Eye of the Moon Plan specifically? Isn't "synching" what all Akatsuki members do with the statue in order to seal beasts? It was already stated that it took forever to seal the beast with one less person and now that they're down to two, it'd make sense that he'd want to use Sasuke to aide them in sealing the beast. Everything at this point though is still speculation.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 18:28, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Cerez365 about the speculation. As for the actual need for the Mangekyo, Sasuke used a regular sharingan to take control of Manda, so I don't think it's a prerequisite for it (Plus when Tobi took control of the Nine-Tailed Fox it's eye briefly turned into a normal sharingan not a mangekyo one). Joshbl56 18:42, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

@Cerez, syncing Sasuke and using him to help sealing ain't the same thing. He said he has to replace Nagato with Sasuke. And I agree about that MS part, Sasuke was able to affect Naruto's mind and suppress Kyubi just with normal Sharingan. Sasuke is not a God, it took a while with 10 powerful Akatsuki members so Sasuke alone is nothing even if he is powerful.--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Sasuke was able to suppress the residual amount of the Kyūbi's chakra that was leaking out of the cage with his Sharingan not the beast, just to make that clear. Also, no one said Sasuke was a god- especially since he's an Uchiha, that doesn't mean that Tobi wouldn't use other people along with Sasuke or that he doesn't have a few other candidates in mind. Saying he's going to use him to- in your sense of the word- "synch" with the statue is your own speculation.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:08, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

99% of people are almost sure he meant something else, actually you are the first one that think he want Sasuke to help him with sealing while:

  • the beasts are already sealed
  • its funny to think there are going to be a new Akatsuki member when the manga is reaching it's end. All Tobi care about is his goal ... there is no longer Akatsuki, its just Tobi, Zetsu and their Moon Eye Plan.

--Elveonora (talk) 19:17, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

  • The Eight and Nine Tails aren't sealed. They stood for days trying to seal the lesser beasts so he must have a contingency plan to seal them.
  • Of course not new Akatsuki members but pawns to synch with the statue though? I don't see anything wrong with that. Because unless he wants to take more than however long he did sealing the others with two (2) persons then I'd assume he'd have a backup plan. I also don't think the manga is reaching it's end- its pinnacle maybe but it probably won't end in the Shinobi World War Arc but that's another issue.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 19:25, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well, he now has the reived hosts, but that's another issue. The qustion being if we are sure he has or not the MS. I think "we are not sure", saying he has it is as much speculations as saying he does not. EDIT: ****** the grammar due to being nervous, corrected. --Elveonora (talk) 19:28, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well, since the page only mentions him having knowledge about the Mangekyo Sharingan then we should keep it as is. Joshbl56 19:32, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

When the 9 tails eyes were being focused on it did not show what Tobi's eye looked look during that, the same way they did with Itachi's eyes in part 1 before they wanted people to see what his mangekyo looked like. The 3rd databook also states explicitly it takes the MANGEKYO Sharingan to control the fox the way Madara and Tobi have, plus the fact Danzo has Shisui's Mangekyo and he used it to control Mifune, but we didn't SEE IT DID WE. Hashirama's cells and the Mangekyo help better control the fox for a non Uchiha, which is why Danzo got it for real. Use your damn heads you tards. Tobi has the Mangekyo but we havent seen it yet because it is apparently important to the plot. Like ITACHI'S ORIGINALLY WAS. Even if this classifys as speculation it all adds up with canon proof from manga and databooks. use your heads smh... 72.66.90.246 (talk) 22:42, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Saying he has a mangekyo when we haven't seen it is still speculation and we don't put it on the wiki. Wait until the manga shows his mangekyo sharingan and we will happily add it. Joshbl56 23:01, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

And watch your language, the only "tard" here is you. --Elveonora (talk) 23:49, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Watch my language?? OMG... I used such bad wooooooorrrrrrdddddssss. Grow the hell up, your childish ass got offended by the word Tard? Really?. Even if I do cuss or use words you don't like, what are you going to do about it? Josh responded right. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 00:37, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Childish ass ? I think you are the one that need to grow up. And learn proper grammar. --Elveonora (talk) 00:44, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Ok people, lets all stop this before it becomes useless spam.

@72.66.90.246, Thank you for your input but lets please try a little nicer. We have rules that say no vulgar language.

@Elvenora, Thank you for helping with the talk page but that last insult shouldn't have been said. Joshbl56 00:50, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, let's speak of proper grammar here. Firstly, you spaced your question mark and that's already improper, you wrote "need" instead of "needs" and you put a period after the word "up" when you should of used a comma. I graduated with a above average score in reading and writing, my grammar is far better than yours is. Simply because some people choose not to use their full knowledge of grammar online does not meant they have bad grammar. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 00:53, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I am done here. For future reference, work on your grammar before you decide to talk about anothers usage of grammar. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 00:54, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

  • I made those grammar mistakes intentionally, so you can comment.
  • I don't meant such grammar, I'm talking about your habit of using words like tards, childish ass etc. If you want to prove your point, this will not help.--Elveonora (talk) 00:58, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

OK! This can all stop now. If you want to keep this up, take it to your talk pages. This is doing nothing but making spam. Lets just stop the conversation here. Joshbl56 01:00, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

"I don't meant" LOL okay but back to the subject at hand, for anyone who needs to understand me, go read the Mangekyo Sharingan page here, and from Databook 3. Then go read every chapter Itachi appeared in from his debut onwards. You will see what I mean. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 05:38, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

We know all of that ... But Tobi's MS was never shown nor mentioned. He could control the Kyubi by using Hashirama power enhanced genjutsu for example or maybe Kishi will reveal later that even an ordinary Sharingan is able to do so if the user is skilled enough. We are not even sure it was Tobi who fought Minato back then. It's stated he somehow controlled the Fox and that he has a vast knowledge of a MS. Remember at first he has to be the Ten-Tail's host in order to cast his Infinite Tsukuyomi.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a forum so unless whatever this is is going to help better a page this discussion should end now please.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 17:08, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

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