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name in recent chapters
hey guys, i just notice. in the translation of mangareader,since chapter 590, characters(itachi and orochimaru) started calling him TOBI...well i"m not surprise about orochimaru, since kabuto(and by extension orochimaru) knew that tobi is not madara...but itachi too?is that a wrong translation?or just to show who among the madara are they talking about?--Saeyatachi (talk) 03:07, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
Seeing that Itachi never revoked his previous warnings about the masked man, who he called Madara, just because he's calling him by a different name doesn't necessarily mean he reformulated an identity for him. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 07:46, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
You do remember that he was introduced to them as Tobi yes? And Itachi didn't/doesn't knew that Tobi is the Madara he knew under there (because of his mask and persona change) and I don't remember Itachi ever calling the Tobi he knew in Akatsuki Madara. In fact the two didn't seem to have any contact at all (from what we've been shown).--Cerez365™(talk) 09:06, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea what you mean when you say "Itachi didn't/doesn't knew that Tobi is the Madara he knew under there". Itachi told Sasuke that Madara was still alive, and the real Madara had already been dead for several years or however long at that point. He also said that particular individual created Akatsuki and was a "shell of his former self", which was what Tobi called himself later on as well. Itachi specifically mentioned that he met with Madara right before the Uchiha Massacre, so he was referring to the masked man in every instance when speaking about "Madara". --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 19:53, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- The "Madara" Itachi knows and the Tobi Itachi knows. Itachi more than likely did not know that the two were one in the same. People wear masks, it's not a foreign concept in the series. Where's the source to verify the source of your information? Because I don't remember Itachi saying any of that to Sasuke. "Shell of his former self" is simply referring to Madara power-wise and the toll that the battle with Hashirama took on him (I don't know about anyone else but I don't think Tobi is a liar and I believe everything he says is transferrable to the "real"/reincarnated Madara) but Itachi definitely didn't know anything about the reincarnated Madara or that Madara and Tobi weren't one in the same.--Cerez365™(talk) 20:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
You are over complicating things. Itachi only referred to one man the entire time when speaking to Sasuke, and that man was Madara Uchiha - the leader of the Uchiha clan, the person that fought Hashirama Senju in the Valley of the End, the person that created Akatsuki, the person he met with prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre, the man responsible for the Nine-tails attack on Konoha, etc. Itachi stated he kept on eye on that masked individual for the rest of his life as he didn't trust him, so there's no way he didn't know that the Akatsuki Tobi was the same person he initially met with long hair just because he changed his mask and cut his hair; you're being absurd.
Now, as far as Itachi knowing about the real Madara being resurrected via Edo Tensei, this is unknown as Itachi was never informed or hinted at his return. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:45, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think I'm being absurd I think you're the only bridging impossible situations together. Yes someone cuts their hair, changes their mask and personality is an entirely different person than the one Itachi met and spoke with before the Uchiha Incident. Also Itachi never said he kept and eye on the masked one (if so provide a source) because I only know of it being said that Itachi joined Akatsuki to keep an eye on the entire organisation, not just one person.--Cerez365™(talk) 22:58, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps if you took the time to read, you'd see that it's even written on Tobi's page. "Tobi complied, training Itachi and providing assistance. However, Itachi never truly trusted Tobi and kept an eye on him for the rest of his life." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
actually...cerez has a point...it's possible that itachi didn't knew that the tobi(swirl patterned mask) and the tobi(flame patterned mask is the same. or maybe this is a hint that the flame patterned(with long hair) whom itachi approached is different than the short haired tobi...but ofcourse these arestill assumptions--Saeyatachi (talk) 01:45, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Sayatachi
Yes it says that in Tobi's article but you've seemingly forgotten that at one point Tobi and Madara's articles were one when the characters were believed to be a single entity. The part that says "Tobi complied, training Itachi and providing assistance. However, Itachi never truly trusted Tobi and kept an eye on him for the rest of his life." is referring to Tobi under the guise of Uchiha Madara and that last part may possibly need changing. Go back to the fight between the two brothers at Uchiha Hideout Itachi says he was mentored by Madara Uchiha, which is exactly whom he believes him to be. I don't ever remember Itachi calling Tobi Madara in the first place.--Cerez365™(talk) 09:05, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
Cerez, what do you not understand about Itachi referring to the masked man in all instances when mentioning the name "Madara" to Sasuke? In addition, "Tobi" is not even the masked man's real name...it was just a temporary name given to his fake persona since the legendary leader of the Uchiha clan's name would raise quite a bit of suspicion and attention. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:40, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
Yes he does refer to him but the only face he's given to that description? We've only ever seen the flame-patterned mask, nothing else. As for Tobi's name, whether it's real or not has no bearing with me. We've already had a lengthy discussion and until more is revealed about the character, his name won't be changed.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:31, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, you're right. Itachi must have been referring to a different masked man that was responsible for the Nine-tails attack on Konoha, founded Akatsuki, and was considered a "pathetic shell of his former self". Tobi coincidentally just labeled himself the same title Itachi gave to Sasuke. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:03, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Cite reference to where you've ever heard Itachi say that, because once again my memory has failed me. This will be my last bit on this discussion because I don't even remember what the point of the discussion was initially. Itachi was never referring to a different masked man to readers, but nothing in the series so far goes to contradict the fact that he might have not been thinking the same. He may have stopped to wonder how it was that Tobi knew the truth, but nothing has been said contrary.--Cerez365™(talk) 11:13, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Color of Sharinnegan Mask
Initially, I was under the impression that the mask was a light purple based off some colored title pages (one of which is on Tobi's page) and past volume artwork, but with the release of volume 61, the mask is portrayed as completely white on the front cover. Is this an error by Kishimoto or did he decide to alter the color? It seems there's an inconsistency. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 09:05, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be mentionmed under Tobi's and Madara's abilities, that according to Minato only Madara, was able to enter the Leaf village undetected through the barrier, and that only Tobi and Madara can enter through Leaf village barrier undetected?--Iamnofool2 (talk) 20:52, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Tobi's Origins Largely Ignored
I have read all archives regarding this topic. Yes, there was discussion, but near the end of them people are supporting that Tobi is indeed of the Uchiha clan and then nobody bothered to reply or defend the case that he wasn't. It just got archived. Someone makes a change, it gets changed back by a authoritative user. This is not a proper way to handle this. So let's get the facts straight.
"Eight years after Kurama's attack, Tobi infiltrated Konoha to try to rekindle the flames of war under the guise of Madara Uchiha." Where is the citation for this? That he was under the guise of Madara Uchiha 8 years after Kurama's attack? He was never referred to as Madara Uchiha during the Uchiha Massacre era, he wasn't referred to as anybody. We can refer to him as "Masked Man" but to make this easier we will call him Tobi.
It is important that we distinguish this. There is heavy evidence to suggest that Tobi was not one single person, but multiple people playing "Tobi". We can prove this by remembering the scene with Kisame and the Mizukage. Tobi says "I am Uchiha Madara." Kisame doesn't believe him, and Tobi goes as far as to step out of the shade to prove it.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we need to understand logic. You can not assume that the Tobi that helped Itachi out with the massacre was Madara. Why? Because we know Madara can die. He died. And later resurrected by Edo Tensei'd. At the time of the Uchiha Clan Massacre, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara would've all been dead of old age. We can assume, by this fact, that Madara was not Tobi at the time he conversed with Itachi. Don't bring speculation into this, this is only logical. We need to understand this because he does admit to being an Uchiha and it would be ridiculous for someone to pull the "that was Madara playing Tobi" card.
After the massacre, yes, Tobi was playing the Madara guise. However, multiple times he admitted to being an Uchiha before holding the guise.
- Proof 1 - Tobi takes his mask off while affirming that he is a "living, breathing, Uchiha". I don't see how you could say that while taking off your mask, and then end up not being an Uchiha.
- Proof 2 - "Only the Uchiha know that place" Itachi affirms.
- Proof 3 - Same page as above. "...Then this will be easy...You probably know know that I'm an Uchiha..."
- Proof 4 -: In this page, he is seen with a dark, shaded eye.
- And in this page, he reveals his sharingan. This is clearly showing that he can control whether it goes into normal mode or sharingan mode. Kakashi clearly didn't notice it until that panel, meaning, he must've changed modes.
There is no evidence to suggest that he isn't an Uchiha. Yes, it's true he claimed to be an Uchiha (Madara) that he wasn't but to say he was a typical humanoid of non-Uchiha origin is crazy talk. We can talk about how he's wearing a robe with an Uchiha crest in the current arc, how he knows all history about the Uchiha, how he is an expert in Sharingan techniques, how he has a laboratory of Uchiha eyes, but those are not even strong enough points for some people. He has said it himself multiple times, it is not reasonable to say that Tobi is not an Uchiha.
- Some points.
- 1) Please point out where people support he was part of the Uchiha clan. As far as I can remember, everyone supported he was when it was assumed he was Madara Uchiha. We know he's not, so his affiliation is in question. (Burden of Proof lies with you I'm afraid.)
- 2) Itachi told Sasuke that Madara Uchiha helped him slaughter his clan. Followed by Danzo calling him Madara Uchiha when the two met in the Land of Iron. If you can prove these wrong, again please show me. (Burden of Proof again I'm afraid.)
- 3) Pure speculation. So far we've only seen 1 Tobi. This man has worn many masks throughout the ages, but nothing suggests more than one Tobi.
- 4) This time I will spare you the burden of looking and say that, if I remember correctly, Kisame had no problem believing Tobi to be Madara because he's clearly met Tobi!Madara during Yagura's reign. If there was disbelief, it was that Tobi was still alive after believing he was killed by Deidara.
- 5) The entire point of Tobi's plan, as seen in chapter #561 was that Tobi's plan for war hinged on the fact that Madara Uchiha, the one man so badass enough that he could plunge the entire ninja world into war was still alive and causing hell long after he was supposed to be dead. Yes we know that's illogical, it supposed to be illogical, that is why his plan hinged on it.
- 6) In Proof 1: He was acting as Madara Uchiha. Proof 2 and Proof 3: Itachi only knew the man as Madara Uchiha, and it's obvious Tobi has been holding on to this guise for years. Proof 4: Doesn't show anything as his eye is in fact shaded, as was all of Tobi's appearances before revealing himself as an evil mastermind. We have never seen him deactivate his Sharingan, his entire eye was covered in shadow.
- 7) He has in fact proven to be very knowledgeable. He's shown to know a lot about the Uchiha clan, the Senju clan, the tailed beasts, and the nature of many jutsu. But as of now, we do not know if he's actually an Uchiha. Him not being Madara, and showing he's very capable of implanting doujutsu into his own body works against him in this regard. Until we have actual proof that he's an Uchiha, he cannot be added here.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:39, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
- 1) Look in Archive 9. Topics made after chapter 590 was released. There were many people bringing it up. The fact that it was brought up in the chapter had to mean something. If Tobi wasn't an Uchiha, then it would be ridiculous for Kishimoto to bring up that false fact again, after it was proven that he is not Madara.
- 2) Itachi admitted to lying about everything to Sasuke, proven in chapter 590. He went as far as saying everything Tobi had said about the massacre was true. So how is Itachi credible at all?
- 3) It's not speculation, it's as logical as 1+1. One Tobi was Madara, chapters later, there's a different Tobi, proven that Madara was actually dead. Again, look at the Kisame conversation.
- 4) See 3.
- 5) This isn't entirely relevant but I will agree with you here for the most part and disagree on where you said his plan hinged on it. Tobi was obviously aware Kabuto was going to summon Madara. It didn't put a wrench in his plan at all.
- 6) P1: Prove this. My memory may be failing me here. P2/3: Itachi was calling Tobi; Tobi in 590, not Madara. Meaning, he knew the truth. P4: Sorry buddy, you're free to believe what you want but his sharingan being noticed randomly is clearly not a coincidence. He activated it then and there, that's the only possible explanation for Kakashi noticing it...then and there and not a few seconds earlier.
- I remember sorely arguing the point that we do not have enough evidence to place Tobi as an Uchiha as things currently stand, so I don't know why you're saying "it just got archived" o.O?
- Citation for Tobi re-entering Konoha would be Itachi's conversation with his brother, where he stated that he had met Madara.
- We never said Tobi that helped out Itachi was Madara, this is why the information is represented on Tobi's page not Madara's. Sure Madara can die, but you're regretfully looking at the information from a reader's perspective where more information is available to you, and not that of the characters.
- I cannot recall anyone on this wikia, ever saying that the masked man was Madara playing Tobi, where'd you get that from?
- There is indeed no evidence that points towards Tobi not being an Uchiha, just as much as there is no evidence pointing towards the fact that he is. Tobi (for all intents and purposes) has been "lying" to everyone. We cannot take bits and pieces of his story and represent it as true because then everything would have to be true or else we'd be biased. Until Tobi's story is revealed, I don't see an issue with omitting the clan he's possible/not possibly from, no one will die because of it.--Cerez365™(talk) 12:19, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
- You can read my response above. Itachi is not credible for "truth", at least in his earlier conversations with Sasuke. He was putting on an act and lying. The only lie Tobi has told us is that he was Madara. Everything he said about the massacre was true, confirmed by Itachi. If you can find anymore lies Tobi has said, please let us all know. I just typed up an essay explaining that Tobi is in fact an Uchiha so I'm not sure where you are getting the "There is no evidence." Are you gonna bother to refute any of that or are you going to continue expressing your indirect distaste for Tobi being an Uchiha? Nexus32 (talk) 12:43, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Tobi lied about not being behind the attack of Kurama on Konoha.
- That Tobirama suppressed Uchiha's political status in the village and their influence and name by making them underlings and under supervision of Hokage (this might NOT be a lie, as it appears as such)
- Tobi obviously didn't have his Sharingan activated 24/7 as it's easily noticeable, not to mention it shines in dark ... no one in Akatsuki noticed it, not even Deidara you say?
- Claiming that Tobi isn't an Uchiha is ridiculous, he appears as knowledgeable as Madara, if not more and not to mention his skills.
- As I said to Cerez before, Kishi wouldn't include that panel with confirmation of Tobi being Uchiha after long revealed of him not being Madara, Itachi isn't a fool.--Elveonora (talk) 15:47, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Wait. Everything else aside. The Sharingan does what in the dark? When have we ever seen the sharingan "shining"? I have yet to see a dōjutsu in Naruto that shies except for the anime fodder of Ranmaru and movie stuff with Shion.
- I keep trying to explain that to know what he knows he does not have to necessarily be an Uchiha, suppose Tobi is an experiment, or simply someone whom Madara has transcribed his memories to? The Sharingan has been shown the ability to relay memories to people (though that's obviously an application of genjutsu). Like I've also said before, it's not confirmation Kishimoto was simply conforming to the notion that in a flashback, what is known at that point, cannot change. If I lied and said I was orange but it's revealed that I'm actually green. Someone telling the story cannot remember me as saying I was green at that point, because it will create an inconsistency. Adding that he's an Uchiha will only perpetuate speculation since we can't just say "because it's been said even after Tobi was found out to not be Madara" Tobi has been portrayed as a liar and it's either we take everything he says about himself as truth or as a lie, there cannot be any half-way.--Cerez365™(talk) 16:16, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
It was stated in manga that a Sharingan shines in dark... The thing is, that if you trust Itachi, Tobi is an Uchiha. EDIT: Cerez, this logic again ... we go with what manga implies, stating: "Tobi might be an experiment" is pure speculation ... you place something that "might be" before somerhing "that is" ?????--Elveonora (talk) 17:58, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide a source for that? Because I don't remember reading that, at all? Yes it's red in colour, but that'd be like saying the Byakugan does the same because it's white. But you cannot trust Itachi when it comes on to this, because Itachi was under the assumption that the flame-masked man was Madara. The part about Tobi being an experiment is negligible. I was just trying to emphasise the point that we known nothing about Tobi except that he stated that he was Madara and by extension, an Uchiha. Tobi for all we know could be a White Zetsu clone and Zetsu's really been the one controlling things behind the scenes or else a parrot with a Sharingan (I hope you understand what I'm getting at there). I'm not placing speculation above fact because at this point it's all up in the air.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:12, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
Sharingan has been seen shining throughout the series... notice it in the anime as well, you can see it well during the Madara vs Hashirama special ova. For the topic, no... Again, Itachi WASN'T under the impression that the Masked Man was Madara whet he met him for the first time. Zetsu is dead, his clones confirmed this (at least the white one, not to mention the status of the black one is questionable as well) wiki should list FACTS that are CONFIRMED but as well things that are implied and also highly probable. There's more evidence for Tobi being an Uchiha that a doubt, I think we should list him as "presumed" Well, let me ask you this... you don't believe there was a 3rd Uchiha survivor at all? EDIT: for more reference chapter 301 page 5 --Elveonora (talk) 18:45, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
That OVA is the least credible thing you can mention, they also showed Madara's EMS as three scythe-looking things. The anime also showed the Byakugan glowing and Shounen went ballistic. I'm not saying the red in the eye may not be distinctive, but i've yet to see where it's ever been noted/seen that the Sharingan actually shines/glows. In chapter 301, the eyes aren't glowing either. They are in a fairly large room and Sasuke is sitting directly below a statue with two candles for eyes. It's nothing more than Sasuke has been thrown into relief and the light catching his eyes, but they aren't glowing. It's akin to going in a dark room and picking up the only coloured objects there and what happened to poor Deidara with Itachi.
Now after that I'm really tired of beating this topic. From what we know, Itachi thought this person was Madara. Witnessed through his conversation with Saskuke. This person was an entirely different person to him. I'm not sure what Zetsu has to do with this...? I cannot change how this wiki operates, I've been told we chronicle what happens, we're not oracles because you or I could be wrong. None of this has been confirmed even if you believe that there is more evidence pointing in one direction than the other. I've never given thought to whether or not there are more Uchiha survivors or no, because I'm not really one to pre-empt what is going to happen. Now before this gets out of hand, Nexus32, you don't know me. I don't have any distaste for Tobi being an Uchiha, personally nothing would be cooler for me, if Tobi was in fact an Uchiha especially Setsuna or one of those guys that defected to join Madara. However not because I want something to happens means I have to represent it on the wiki. The only lies Tobi has ever told are those directly relating to who he is, I never said the background stories he told were lies, because I personally believe every word Tobi says but the fact of the matter is, his origins are currently unknown because he is not Madara. You have as much ground to label him an Uchiha as we do for Kakashi. With that I'm done, because it doesn't make sense I argue something that will never happen until we have more concrete evidence on the matter.--Cerez365™(talk) 12:33, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
@Cerez-shining topic: Kisame comments as such and in Sasuke's case it glows/shines as well obviously, there wasn't enough light to make any clear of his face, yet his eyes were visible. @Tobi and stuff: from where did you get that Itachi thought there to be 2 Tobis ie. 2 different masked people? ...--Elveonora (talk) 14:10, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
- When did Kisame say that?
- No, not two Tobi. One Madara, the other Tobi. Wearing masks is not as uncommon in the series. I haven't seen anything that points towards Itachi thinking that Tobi was Madara yet...--Cerez365™(talk) 17:28, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
Cerez, now I have no idea if to take you seriously... either your memory is bad or you weren't reading properly. I have posted 2 links for the glow, Ultimate deleted them with "no links", look up the history :) also for Tobi/Madara/Itachi thing... chapter 549. I don't understand why are you speculating, unless proved otherwise, all "Masked Men" were one and the same person - Tobi, not Madara.--Elveonora (talk) 18:02, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
Oh the bit with Kisame, sorry link was removed and I had overlooked it. I could chalk it up to scientific fact that Kisame is is light looking into darkness so the colour receptors in his eyes still worked but there is no going around what he said I suppose. Maybe it does in fact show up in the darkness because of its colour, but until they're in a pitch black room and uses Sasuke as a lamp... I'm not speculating though to us, yes, all masked men are Tobi and unmasked is Madara but I do not think that is true to the persons in the story. I will admit that while reading some older chapters I've seen possibilities that Itachi may have in fact knownn Tobi was "Madara", I still can't agree with the sentiments that Tobi should be listed as an Uchiha.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:18, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
Should we include the the former into Sharingan trivia? (phosphor effect I guess) Besides, after re-reading a several chapters, IT REALLY appears that Itachi was under the illusion of Tobi being Madara, and had no idea of it being false. BUT, we should at least hint on a possibility of Tobi being an Uchiha in trivia or something, because he is susceptible for being one, and many assumed as such even without him introducing as such, due to his: behavior/views/powers/knowledge etc.--Elveonora (talk) 20:55, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
I'm just going to butt in on this little debate if I may and add: What purpose would Tobi have to lie about being an Uchiha to Itachi (NOT claiming he was Madara)? As I've previously brought up before, there is absolutely zero evidence that Tobi ever even mentioned the name "Madara" to Itachi during the Uchiha Massacre or at all, and it is entirely possible/probable that Itachi concluded he was Madara Uchiha all on his own, despite him hypothesizing "wrong".
As for Tobi's "lies": the only single statement made by him that is absolutely slanderous is that he was not behind the Nine-tails attack on Konoha. Him not being at least some form of Madara is speculation as we don't know his true origin at this point. With that said, because of that one lie, he cannot be trusted about anything? Tobi is as much an Uchiha as Sasuke, Itachi, the real Madara, or any other named Uchiha.
He claims he is no one, and doesn't want to be anyone, yet dons Uchiha robes and desires to use Sasuke to acknowledge that same clan. Either he's contradicting himself or he is indeed a member of the clan. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:38, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
Pretty much :) But, wait, wait .... WAIT!!! He CAN'T be an Uchiha because we are yet to see a fireball technique from him "trollface" Don't tell me that a guy that has nothing to do with Uchiha decided to wear their emblem, and knows their secret shrine.... that doesn't deserve a "Uchiha presumed" at all.--Elveonora (talk) 13:16, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
- You are either blatantly ignoring he started this war as Madara Uchiha out of ignorance of the fact or because it discredits your argument.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:35, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
He didn't need clothes with Uchiha symbol for others to falsely believe he was Madara, just his actions, knowledge and power. He started to wear this new costume long AFTER he spoke of himself as Madara, thus it has nothing to do with being more "convincing"--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
- And he changed his appearance when he retrieved the Rinnegan and got suited up for war. Regardless, there are many reasons he may be an Uchiha, and there are just as man reasons he may not be. It is better off not mentioned until we know for sure.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:02, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
The Eldest son of the Sage
Doesn't anybody think that tobi is the eldest son of the sage of the six paths? Man it's just to much coincedences. He has a huge collection of eyes that all belong to him because he is the father of the ocular mutations, and to him they are all his in a way just like he says something of the kind when he goes to get the rinnegan of nagato. He has the ability to use at least 3 of the six paths of the sage being outer path, human path and animal path. He has a big grudge against senju (younger brother) and uchiha (because of their alliance with the enemy senju). When Itachi first meets him he has a sword just like it is told about the sage's son. He knows all of the sage's secrets, weapons and bijuus. The shrine that will tell sasuke all about this story is the shrine of the creation of uchiha, the text that can only be read by an ocular power like his and was created by the founder of uchiha. He uses his time and space distortion that does a swirl exactly like the eyes of the sage's son and exactly like his first mask, when Kakashi in his space distortion does only a blur. And more, he knows madara, he knows the first hokage so he must be from their time or older! Getting convinced? His objective is power and war to acheive peace just like the objective of the sage's son. He knows all about the curse of hatred of the uchiha clan. -- i_Rafa 02:44, 26 July 2012 (GMT)
The topic above is all about speculation and theories... is tobi uchiha or not. Nobody knows yet. Anyone can use ocular powers as shown by Ao that has byakugan, Danzo that has sharingan and Nagato with the rinnegan. And as we all already know Tobi is well known for lying and decieving when he states that he is Uchiha just as he stated he is Madara, this could all be lies, thus it's just theories. --i_Rafa (talk) 03:20, July 26, 2012 (GMT)
The topic above, as far as I can tell, discusses whether what is known about Tobi is enough to warrant him being listed as a member of the Uchiha clan. Just that. Not a topic on who he might be. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:44, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
The article says that Tobi ("Uchiha Madara" possess Hashirama's DNA) we must take into consideration that Tobi lied about being Madara, thus there's no confirmation of him having Hashirama's power, because he is yet to show any Wood Release or something, and if we take that as true, then shouldn't we add Wood Release into his infobox? For the usage of Izanagi, ANY Senju DNA is required.--Elveonora (talk) 15:03, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
Considering that he has a living clone of Hashirama in his hideout, I think it's highly likely that he does have Hashirama's cells integrated into him. Not to mention the material he uses to replace his flesh and limbs (the same substance used to create White Zetsu).
As for the Wood Release, Tobi has yet to show any wood-oriented techniques. Just because he possesses the First's DNA doesn't necessarily mean he can utilize all of his abilities. Though, he likely can, but it would be speculation. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:29, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
It's kinda confusing "_" Neither Nagato used a Fire Release technique (unless I remember wrong) he was just stated to have mastered all 5 natures + 6th one or something. So if we agree that Tobi has Hashirama's DNA due to the clone and all, and has used a perfect Izanagi but Wood Release isn't listed, while in case of an elemental KKG the basic natures are listed if they make up and advanced one, even if not used... 0_o--Elveonora (talk) 15:38, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- It is confusing because there's a thin line.
- The constant is: If the person has used it, add it.
- COndition1 says: If the person has requirements but hasn't used it, don't add them
- COndition2 says: If the person threatens/states they can use it, add it.
Hey, I've been wondering why Tobi is stated to have shown a "remorseful" and "miserable" side to himself, when he's clearly a proven nihilist?
-Remorse: means to feel guilt or regret for one's past actions. Tobi hasn't shown any form of guilt or regret when stating that he's "no one"
-Miserable: very unhappy. Experiencing a serious lack of contentment or happiness. This one I can see but this could be the perception of the reader. Tobi doesn't really seem to care about his own happiness at all seeing as how he feels that the world in general is miserable and worthless.
-Nihilism: belief that nothing is worthwhile: a belief that life is pointless and human values are worthless. This clearly fits with Tobi's M.O. for his Moon's Eye Plan. He wants to put the world in an Infinite Tsukuyomi to stop wars and hatred, and dreams and in essence individualism. He even tells the Kage there is no such thing as hope a powerful human ideal. So why are we not accepting that he is a nihilist and going with the past two incorrect terminology? ItachiZero (talk) 07:13, July 27, 2012 (UTC)ItachiZero
- Through his Eye of the moon we can see that both he and Madara do exhibit nilhism. However not completely. Tobi does not believe that nothing is pointless hence his whole plan would have not been put into play, but he does not believe in the intrinsic value of human life. Now from reading the section it does indeed seem wrong about him being miserable and remorseful especially because it didn't come across to me that way (it seemed he was giving them a more nonplus answer than anything else) but that doesn't mean I'd agree entirely on calling him a nihilist.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:27, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
If my hypothesis is accurate, there is a reason this man is consistently referring to himself as "no one", not just a lack of self-esteem or self-confidence. It goes along with both him and Itachi alluding to him as a "shell of his former self." However, he did not know start degrading himself until recently and has shown great pride in bearing the name "Madara Uchiha" up until it was revealed he was a fake. Even then, he has performed his own actions (such as forming Akatsuki and giving Nagato the Rinnegan) that he seems to hold as valuable accomplishments. Regardless, it's hard to say what his personality can be classified as when we don't know the origin of his existence or why he believes the world he lives in is worthless. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 18:11, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
- But that's just the point. I don't think Tobi lacks self-esteem nor is he degrading himself. I believe the reason why people see this is because of how closely it came with the whole Kabuto and his identity crises. I don't believe Tobi has a lack of self esteem it's just that he is single-minded in his goal and for whatever reason after he is found out to not be the actual Madara (unlike Kabuto who was scampering around to find himself) Tobi chose to regard who he is as unimportant.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:19, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
I'm also not saying that Tobi has self esteem issues; he was more than likely being a realist when saying he was a "shell of (his) former self" (while claiming to be Madara Uchiha) and when he said he was "no one" I think he was more or less blowing Naruto off while also exhibiting his nihilistic views. He took pride in calling himself Madara Uchiha, because Madara was a prideful man and boasts such great notoriety that a war was started simply in the power of his name. However, Tobi seems to be much more of a nihilist that Madara, as he's repeatedly put down notions of existential human values and beliefs, such as "hope" and referring to the word as "worthless." While he's single minded, so is a nihilist as they don't feel anything has value whatsoever. Also, his Moon's Eye goal could still be construed as nihilism as he's trying to strip away all individualism and make people live out their lives as mindless zombies who are stuck in a dream. ItachiZero (talk) 06:27, July 29, 2012 (UTC)ItachiZero
Can there not be an update of how Tobi basically outmaneuvered just about every of the shinobi's attacks in chapter 595? Someone previously explained that it was all due to his space-time migration, but that was only because of what the wielder of the technique was capable of. He did physically evade and parry many of the attacks, as well as carefully timed when to utilize his intangibility and when to make himself tangible to be on the offensive. There was certainly speed involved, and as Naruto commented, strength.
- I think that's just him being skilled with space-time migration, his speed and strength are already mentioned. TricksterKing (talk) 00:22, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
So "Tobi's only apparent claim to fame was his speed" is sufficient enough to depict his speed then? We don't need to include any evidence to back up that statement, right? There's literally nothing (save for the anime only scene) right now that portrays how fast and agile he can be. It would be redundant in no way to include examples for his physical prowess. Furthermore, he didn't just use his intangibility the entire assault; he physically dodged and countered several attacks, including acting fast enough to change the trajectory of a lightning-enhanced kunai. It would make no sense not to mention these feats under abilities. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:43, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- His speed needs a better example, but his physical prowess is already mentioned with the examples of his strength and that he was able to fight the 4th Hokage as an equal. TricksterKing (talk) 05:49, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not gonna hark too much on the issue of his speed, but I do feel that his abilities should be updated to mention how BA he is with that Gunbai and his intelligence to use it to cut through the rocks to get to Naruto. Just saiyan. ItachiZero (talk) 06:30, July 29, 2012 (UTC)ItachiZero
- Where are Madara shown the 5 chakra natures or saying that he mastered it? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 23:49, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
Madara isn't listed as having all natures. We know he can use Fire Release, so that's listed. He used Wood Release, meaning he can also use Earth Release and Water Release, so those are listed. And because of the whole Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations debacle, he's listed as a Wind Release user too. Please don't make me explain it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:44, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
I personally believe it's debatable that one can use the two derived nature types when it comes to having a kekkai genkai nature implanted into them. We have yet to see Danzo or Madara use any Earth or Water techniques. Tobi can use Earth, but it could very well be his nature affinity and have nothing to do with possessing Hashirama's DNA. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 05:19, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
actually, according to yamato when he and kakashi were explaining to naruto about nature transformation, yamato specifically said kekkei genkai are using both natures at the same time. that means that without a single doubt that those with kekkei genkai can use both chakra natures that make up their kekkei genkai, since they have to use the natures at the same time.184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:59, July 28, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
Kekkei genkai like these provide people with the ability to use the two nature transformations simultaneously. It wouldn't matter that Tobi might have had one or even both of them before, because he still would not have possessed the ability to use them at the same time in order to use Wood Release.--Cerez365™(talk) 11:07, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
While I can understand the technical reasoning, my point stands that we have yet to see the two people that wield Wood Release via integration using the two derived nature types on their own. As in neither Danzo nor Madara have performed an Earth or Water technique. I just don't really see the point in saying they can utilize those natures when it's already known that Wood Release is the combination of the two aforementioned types and to our knowledge, they cannot use them separately. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 16:59, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Yamato himself has demonstrated both Earth and Water Release techniques, despite having Hashirama`s dna integrated into him as a child. The only thing we really don`t know is whether this dna transplantation requires the receiver to master the natures on their own or if they gain some sort of "affinity" to it.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:01, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
them using the kekkei genkai itself is using the chakra natures that make it, that is using them. yamato even said that there is really no such thing as wood release, he's just using water and earth release at the exact same time! user:uchiha suraku, reread the chapter yamato and kakashi explain to naruto about nature transformation, its volume 35 chapter 316 page 4 and 5. also kakashi meant tobi using his space-time migration's ability to absorb people into his seperate dimmension, although he has the ability to use BTAS, but this wiki only shows techniques the people have been seen using or have been said to be able to use.220.127.116.11 (talk) 08:02, July 29, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
An addition of Blocking Technique Absorption Seal
Shouldn't we mention it on the page that Tobi can use Blocking Tchnique Absorption Seal because Kakashi was talking about his absorption of ninjutsu in the chapter 595.--Dawoodahmad10 (talk) 20:41, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
Has anyone but me noticed that Tobi's mask design changes to match his most useful technique at the time? His first mask, the flame print one, had flames resembling Kurama's tails, and his most useful ability at that time was to summon Kurama. His second mask, the orange one, had a swirl design that resembles his teleportation technique, his most useful ability at that time. Finally, his current mask, the grey one, resembles a combination of the Rinnegan and the Sharingan, and his current most useful ability is possessing both the Sharingan and Rinnegan, not including recreating the ten-tails, whose one eye also resembles Tobi's mask.--Tsl3161991 (talk) 15:55, July 30, 2012 (UTC)