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== species/classification again ... ==
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==Infobox image==
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Why are we still using the fatass Bulbasaur form? We know its true form is the "Third form", as thats what was seen in the flashbacks of Hagoromo, when Madara recreated it in a complete state, and when Kaguya reverted to it after being hit by Chibaku Tensei. --[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 22:20, July 17, 2015 (UTC)
   
Do we really must list it as a "tailed beast" ??? Because that isn't true, Tailed Beasts are creations from its chakra and the Ten-Tails was stated to have created the universe, so it's a deity. Just because it's a "beast" and has "tails" doesn't make it a tailed beast, would be like calling a human a hairless ape or a dog domesticated canine.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:58, May 13, 2013 (UTC)
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Bump.--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 06:05, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
   
It's a beast, has tails, and is referred to most commonly as the Ten-Tails, not as a Deity despite having an actual name of one given to it. Yeah, pretty much makes it a Tailed Beast. As for your other point, Humans are Homo Sapiens, which are a genus of primate and being perfectly literal, a dog is a domesticated canine. Just because you can use more than one term to describe something, doesn't make one definition any more accurate than another.
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:Agree with this, especially since the current picture screws up its trademark eye. Anyone else?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:53, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
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::We're using the "fatass Bulbasaur form" in the info box because we generally use an image depicting the first appearance of the character. --[[User:Sarada Uzumaki|Sarada Uzumaki]] ([[User talk:Sarada Uzumaki|talk]]) 23:00, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
   
Humans are Apes
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== Incorrect Background info ==
   
Dogs are Canines
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Not really sure where to post this, since I've seen this on this page, Hagoromo, and Hamura's pages. So I'll just go ahead and post it here.
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"In the final battle between the Ten-Tails and Kaguya's sons, Hagoromo and Hamura, they managed to defeat the beast and sealed it within Hagoromo, making him the first jinchūriki. This act, along with many other great deeds throughout his lifetime, resulted in Hagoromo becoming revered as the "Sage of the Six Paths". However, knowing that his death would unleash the Ten-Tails back into the world to continue its rampage and reclaim the chakra he had spread among humanity, Hagoromo separated the monster's chakra from its body and used his Creation of All Things ability to create the nine tailed beasts. Hagoromo then used Chibaku Tensei to seal the Ten-Tails' husk in what would become the moon.[5][6]"
   
The Ten Tails is a Tailed Beast and a Deity.
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They sealed her with http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_%E2%80%94_Chibaku_Tensei, which is what created the Moon with the husk being used as it's core. Just like when Naruto and Sasuke used it a thousand years later to do the same exact thing. Hamura departed with the rest of the Otsutsuki Clan to the Moon after the Ten-Tails' husk was sealed into what became known as the Moon. With Hagoromo having Asura and Indra many years later, and we know what happens beyond that point. Hamura's page cites the fourth databook when it says this, and Hagoromo said that he had his sons afterwards himself.
   
You want to petition to get deity added, that's all well and good, but that doesn't stop it being a tailed beast. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 16:18, May 13, 2013 (UTC)
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When Hagoromo appears himself and talks about things, he never says anything about surviving the extraction of the Ten-Tails' chakra due to him having it's husk within him. As that wouldn't make sense, since it's husk is in the Moon which Hamura and the clan left to guard many years ago. Only Madara, Obito, and Kurama say that. We know Madara, Obito, and Nagato aren't reliable sources, because the tablet they read from was tampered with by Black Zetsu. While Kurama is more reliable, he was basically a newborn at the time and may have forgotten some things or Hagoromo didn't tell him everything. But based on the new version of the story, Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails' body away into what became known as the Moon with Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei. While it's chakra was sealed into Hagoromo making him it's Jinchuriki, which he later extracted and created the nine Tailed Beast from, before scattering them across the world. Then he chose his son Asura as a successor to his Six Paths Senjutsu and ninshu over Indra, and then died.
   
That's my point, it's being listed as a tailed beast only because the definition is fitting its appearance, it's a "beast" and has "tails" but the term Tailed Beasts refers to beings created from its chakra by Grandpa Hermit of Six. Classifying it as a tailed beast would be like classifying Naruto as a teenage blonde dubmass shinobi humanoid specimen from leaf village. Tailed Beasts' progeny is the "Ten-Tails" and the "Ten-Tails" can't be a tailed beast because there wasn't apparently anything before it. I take the classification as a race/species status, not definition of what something looks like. Hopefully you understand what I mean. TB are creations, Jubi has no creator for what we know. God are gods, they come in many forms, in fiction anyway--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:53, May 13, 2013 (UTC)
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So unless we're going to go based on the older version of his story told by sources less reliable than himself, which would mean there are now two bodies of the Ten-Tails' out there and Chibaku Tensei was used twice, and that Hamura would be on his deathbed too due to being the same age as his brother when he left to go to the Moon. When, in The Last, he was shown being on the Moon when young just like he was when he fought the Ten-Tails, and was stated to have gone to the Moon right after the fight with the Ten-Tails, not after his brother was about to die. Then there is only one Gedo Mazou, Chibaku Tensei was used once, and this is all going off of the new version of the story told by Hagoromo himself, The Last, the fourth databook, and common sense. So shouldn't all of the articles that keep retelling a combination of the old and new version of the story, which would mean there is two Gedo Mazous, which is clearly wrong, be changed to reflect the new version we were given at the end of the Manga, The Last, and by the fourth databook? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 18:59, August 16, 2015 (UTC)
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:Well, this is a tough one. I don't think Kurama would say something like that so surely if it were untrue.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 22:06, August 17, 2015 (UTC)
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::Yeah, but based on what the new version of the story is. Kurama has to be wrong, because it's impossible for Hagoromo to have the Gedo Mazou in him if it's already in the Moon. Which is why Hamura and the rest of the clan left to guard it, based on what was said in the fourth databook and The Last. If Hagoromo had it in him, and used it to create the Moon. That means there would be two moons, which there clearly isn't. Kurama was just a wee little pup back then, so it's possible that he forgot or Hagoromo didn't tell him everything. It makes more sense for Kurama to be wrong than right, or else nothing makes any sense at all. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Gedo Mazou in the core of the Moon, which Hamura and the Otsutsuki Clan left to guard, with Hagoromo becoming the Jinchuriki via it's chakra. That is the only story that makes sense, cause if we go based on all the other versions, there is two Gedo Mazous, two Moons, and Hamura would be old and nearly dead when he went to the moon, when he was shown to be young. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 18:35, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
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:::New information > old information. Exceptions may happen, but that's the general rule. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:53, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
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::::That's basically what I'm trying to say Seel, the new version of the story contradicts the older versions. So we should go based on what the new versions say over what the older versions say, mostly cause that's usually what happens, and if we try to combine both versions all we get is a huge illogical and contradictory mess. So don't you think the articles should be changed to reflect that? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 19:03, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
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:::::It isn't the wiki's responsibility to decide which version of events is "true" or try to reconcile discrepancies. It reports the information that's been given, noting who said what if needed for clarity. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 16:15, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
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::::::Yes, it isn't our job to correct the manga. But if old information gets updated with new information, we should abide to that, shouldn't we? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:03, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::You can give the new information preference, but you shouldn't exclude the old info or present the old info as if it were incorrect. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 17:38, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
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::::::::Alright, then I'm going to add Tobi as Madara again. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:47, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::::Just be sure to pipe the link!
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:::::::::I actually don't think that's a fair comparison. The series has told us that Tobi was not really Madara. The series has not told us that Kurama's version of events was wrong. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 17:53, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
   
How about "Classification: Deity" and "Species: Plant" ? Perhaps we should create an article for deities in general and along with Ten-Tails, include also [[Jashin]] and the Death God there?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:57, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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Kurama was most certainly wrong/Kishi forgot/changed his mind so retcon.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 20:39, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
   
I would leave Jyuubi as a tailed beast, regardless if the other 9 are created from it or not. Currently, it's name is Jyuubi and even if it is the actual creator of all, it's still a tailed beast (as in a beast that has tails). Trying to reclassify it gets too deep and involved to the point it's not possible, especially considering we don't have information to confirm things such as it being a god, etc. And as for plant... just... no.--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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@Snapper The series tells us it's wrong because all new sources tell a different version of the story, and if we follow Kurama's version, then nothing makes sense and we got two Gedo Mazous, the moon being created twice, and Hamura being old and on his deathbed when he went to the Moon. When he went to it when young, not on his deathbed. Kurama's version literally contradicts the new version completely and does nothing more than create plotholes. I'm not saying that the page shouldn't mention Kurama's version somewhere, but it shouldn't be written in such a way that his version is correct and that the two versions go together, because they don't. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 00:29, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
:Kurama stated it's a god who created universe and is source of all chakra. Who is more credible? It simply isn't a tailed beast, that would be like stating god if any exist must be humanoid because we were "so" created in "his" image. Stating Jubi is a tailed beast is simply giving it false attributes and objectification, something humans are good at. Tailed Beasts aren't true/original/official beings, but creations made with [[Creation of All Things]] thus again, Ten-Tails isn't one despite its NICKname--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:19, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:Kurama did, but that doesn't change it from being a tailed beast. As for god, that's assuming the god looks like us, and it's not a flying bowl of pasta, or something Lovecraftian. Stating it is a tailed beast means it is a Tailed Beast, a beast with tails (10 to be precise), and the only name it is officially known by follows the same pattern as the other Tailed Beasts. No attributes are being taken away or false given by making such a conventional classification, either. What says it isn't a tailed beast? Because I currently, personally, do not see the logic in your points. Why can't it be a Tailed Beast, despite having godlike levels of power, so much so that it created the universe?--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:34, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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:It doesn't need to present Kurama's version as being ''correct'', it just shouldn't present Kurama's version as being wrong either. So, "According to Kurama..." and leave it that. Do not introduce doubt, do not try to explain away discrepancies. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 02:25, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
::Because it wasn't created by Sage of Six Path using Creation of All Things?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:53, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Which doesn't mean it isn't a Tailed Beast. Classification can have things added to it as they're introduced. It is still a beast with tails, albeit a beast with tails that is stated to have created the world and etc. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Then what the classification means to begin with? A description of what something looks like? Sensors are sensitive individuals who can sense chakra and identify by and even track others. Jinchuuriki are those with TB sealed into them, but Tailed Beasts aren't called "tailed beasts" because they are beasts with tails, are they? Cause that's not even true, Chomei has wings for example and Gyuki tentacles. Meaning what the term "classification" refers to is a group of individuals, Ten-Tails can't be a part of it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:07, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Point of clarification: The Ten-Tails is labeled as "Tailed Beast" because at the time of the pages creation, the Ten-Tails was simply known as the precurser of the tailed beasts and we weren't told that he was some sort of god. He is also, probably not some sort of god, at least in the context of the show, but a very old and pissed off demon. Ideally, it's classification should have been "Demon" from the start but there we go.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:08, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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Then perhaps it could be written like "According to Kurama..." and then "However, Hagoromo said..." or anything else that can be said that cites Hagoromo's words, The Last, and Jin no Sho? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 05:06, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
:Why do you assume otherwise? The last we were told was that it's a god who more or less created the whole Narutoverse (in-universe-wise, out it's Kishimoto of course :-I), so unless Kurama lied or doesn't know any better than we do, it's true and there's no reason to doubt it because we list what we are told not what we think. The most correct classifications I see for it are "deity, progenitor, creator" all meaning the same things contextually, nothing else. For the species, biologically it resembles a plant-animal hybrid, but I don't know a term for such a creature so... plant--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:36, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Because we were also told it was a natural disaster, a giant, and a Deidarabotchi which is a fancy name for a demon. We've also called the First and Third Gods, but they weren't exactly deities.
 
::Anyway we are arguing semantics and I honestly care very very little about this topic. I was just pointing out ''why'' the Ten-Tails was classified as a Tailed Beast.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:43, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::I have no issue with leaving the thing as a tailed beast it is just a generic classification we use for them, because essentially it is a name created by people for them and not what they are. Sometimes, you guys take things like classifications too literal, should we also then not classify the nine tailed beasts as demi gods? As where are you guys getting the information that the Ten-Tails is a plant? Just because it's mouth looks like one? The bulb on his back looks plant-like as well, doesn't make the beast a plant...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:06, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:::: A lot of things are called "god" in this series, Elve. The Sage of the Six Paths, Hashirama, and even Hiruzen Sarutobi. That just means that's what people called them. Also, I cross referenced where you've been citing that the Ten-Tails "created the universe". No, it wasn't even stated to have created the planet. It was said that it was the origin of all ''life on the planet''. Those are two very different concepts. Secondly, you seem to be overlooking the fact that the Tailed Beasts, throughout ''Naruto'' are referred to as demons. It is more likely, considering this is a Japanese series (and one of its names is Deidarabotchi), based on Japanese mythology, that the Ten-Tails is a demon, like Ultimate said, than some sort of "god". Either way, Tailed Beast does for a good description, but if it is absolutely demanded, we can change it to demon — but I don't think anyone is ready to classify it as a "god". And it is ''certainly'' not a freaking plant. Its mouth may look like one, and yes it has a bulb on its back, but that could just as well make it a freaking Venasaur. Let's leave speculation out of this. I really don't see why any of this matters, but, oh well. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:18, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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What we know:
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* The Ten-Tails wasn't made moon and it made on his deathbed, legend wrong, rather, young Hagoromo and Hamura fought and defeated their mom, extracted her chakra and turned her into the Gedo Mazo and sealed inside the moon, where Hamura and folks went to guard her
::::So Zero-Tails isn't a tailed beast (ignoring it's movie-only status, let's say it's canon) but Ten-Tails is? So if the term is just generic, then [[Nine-Tailed Naruto Clone]] and that thing the Uzumaki Clan leader sealed in anime should be one too. That's why the term isn't and shouldn't be generic, rather it has to refer to creation by grandpa sage of six. And no, Tailed Beasts aren't demi-gods because they have a creator, Jubi doesn't for what we know but itself is The Creator. @Ten Tailed Fox, it's been stated to be source of all chakra and progeny of everything that exists. For the plant thing, well, it has a physical form, there are biological kingdoms and since it resembles a plant-animal hybrid, it most closely looks like a something that would belong among plants since I don't think such a being does exist (plant-animal hybrid) in real life thus no term for it. EDIT: Hashirama, Sage of Six and Hiruzen were referred to as "god of shinobi" not "gods"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:28, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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* The Tailed Beasts were created when Hagoromo was old though (flashback), he got inspired by Asura to do so
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* Thus he had kept Ten-Tails' chakra for many years
(Restarting the indents) No, canon or not, the Zero-Tails is not a Tailed Beast. It has no tails. Those are sorta required for Tailed Beasts. The Ten-Tails, as it so happens, has ten of them — more than any of the others, near as I can figure, so I'd say he fits that description pretty well. I don't know what you're talking about with the other two, so I can respond to those, but it would seem you're using anime-only content to justify classifying a demon as some sort of plant-god. Also, Elve, it really does say its the originator of life on the planet, not the planet, not the universe. Double-check your sources here. Not that it matters either way. Its not a plant, no matter how much it looks like one, and I don't think you're going to convince anyone here to label it as such. Might be a worthy triva note, but until Kishi comes out saying that the Ten-Tails is the pissed off "god of flowers", I'm not buying it. Its a demon. Beasts like it have been called demons througout the series, and it was even introduced as the "primordial demon". So yes, I'm not buying your argument. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:34, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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* Since Hagoromo had no Gedo Mazo and he lived until after the creation of the Tailed Beasts, '''he was never a jinchuuriki''', otherwise he would have died from the extraction, unless Kurama is right and he had Gedo Mazo to keep him alive for a while, which doesn't explain where the second Gedo Mazo went
:My point is that if we classify the Ten-Tails as a "tailed beast" then any monster with tails should we. We label species for Kurama as Kitsune, Shukaku as Tanuki so why not for the Ten-Tails? Also they were never stated to be demons, it's only what people of Narutoverse believed them to be, just like Suna believed Shukaku to be a corrupted priest, don't mix in-universe myths with out-universe facts please--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:42, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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* There aren't 2 moons, so if there had been a second Gedo Mazo, it couldn't have been made into a moon then
::Zero-Tails is a misnomer, I thought we were all clear on this...? You're also taking the word "generic" too literal, within the Narutoverse Tailed Beast does not mean the same thing as a creature with a tail, it in all cases refers to the (for want of another word) tailed beasts. I can understand maybe classifying it as "Primordial Tailed Beast" but I'm not for calling it a god.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
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--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 07:01, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
:::Well, I'm for calling it anything but a tailed beast, so you don't want to call it god but demon yes? There's nothing to suggest it's a demon or that demons exist in this fiction for that matter--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:46, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Only reason I'd call any of them demons is because it'd sound cool, not because they were actual demons and that's what they were thought to be a long time ago (hence why everybody was X-Tail Demon Y). I don't think many traces of that are left on the wikia, with the exception of possibly Kurama who was called such.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:51, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Finally... I thought I'm talking to a wall. It's a matter what is true, not what is thought to be true. They were also thought to be primitive and natural occurrences of sort, yet know it's false now. Things are getting changed and we update them as plot moves forward. And it's sad that I'm the only one who cares... if no one cared about anything, then this place would have looked badly, filled with fanon or not even existed anymore/in the first place. Also the article itself says that according to Kurama it's a god, so why not to list it as one? Another case it says tailed beasts were created from its chakra, yet we list it as one too. I sense lots of bias, leaving untrue information around for whatever reason (or lack of thereof it seems)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::::::Would you be happy if, instead of corrupting this page, we update the other pages so everything matches and reflects how it should be? That makes more sense to me than putting frivolous things for the classification. Everyone cares, but we don't believe in the same things as you do. I, for one, don't think it is an issue and is how it should be, yet you do not. See the problem? --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 18:21, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::::Yes, the problem is that some are okay with it being false because it's generally accepted as such so there's not much need to change it. It's not a matter of belief, but what is true. The introduction section for Jubi used to say it's a demon, I changed that. Now I'm discussing or rather arguing as it seems that the classification is also being changed--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
(TMI - Too many indents). The problem is you're making a fuss about something that is not incorrect or false. Changing it from demon doesn't mean it's true -- you believe it is, but it had been called a demon before, so that wouldn't be incorrect. But by all account and standards that you're desiring, with a lot of delusion, then we should leave the classification completely blank as the Jyuubi is nothing that we know of. Except that what is actually true is that it is a Tailed Beast. It may be the original Tailed Beast, whose power created all the life on whatever scale you desire, but it still a tailed beast that follows the pattern that the other 9 have been built into by Kish. There's absolutely nothing wrong here, and that's not a belief.--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 18:33, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Sharingan has been stated by Kakashi to be delivered from Byakugan, Nagato has been believed by Jiraiya to have been Sage of Six Paths reborn and the Rinnegan is nothing but a mutation, doesn't make them true. Yes, TB were called demons, but they were/are still called and believed to be many things by people of Narutoverse, falsely I must add. Also can you link me to where the word "demon" is ever used in reference to Jubi? I don't remember such thing, while I remember it being called a god.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:39, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Kakashi mentioned that there are people who believe Sharigan may be derived. It was not an assertion or a matter-of-fact. Nagato;Jiraiya;Rinnegan -- extraneous. They are called demons and by all rights, they can be demons. Why can't they be demons? Demons aren't the same thing in other cultures as they are for Christians. Your points do not contribute to your argument, sadly. As for Jyuubi being called a demon, someone already pointed it out, and its also in the article as a name used to reference it (which was also pointed out above by someone). And, by your completely valid point -- just because its called a god, doesn't mean it is... right? You kinda contradicted yourself, there.--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 18:45, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Exactly! That's why I oppose the term "demon" everyone interprets it differently, also Kishimoto incorporates elements from many myths and religions into his manga + adding his own touch, so calling it a demon possibly causes misinterpretation between individuals. Kurama is more reliable than anyone because it's who knows how old, met Sage of Six Paths himself and is a "child" of the very creature we are discussing, so it should know more about it than anyone.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:04, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::: Its not a god anymore than it is a flower. It is the original tailed beast, which is why it has that classification. I, once again, don't see why this is an issue. I don't think we really need to get into the specifics of what the beast is, because it hasn't been explicitly stated. Kurama calls it a god, Obito called it a demon ''and'' the original tailed beast, Kurama also called it Daidarbotchi, which is a type of demon, so Tailed beast is going to have to do for now. Until Kishi gives us a more explicit classification of what it is, it is the most correct classification we have that doesn't dip into the realm of fan fiction and speculation. This is a pointless conversation that will get the site, nor the article, nowhere. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:08, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::::How about progenitor of tailed beasts and we move Ten-Tails from [[http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_Beasts#Ten-Tails]] to similar cases or create a separate section for it from the other 9?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:38, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
No, its not a similar case. Its the original Tailed Beast. Tailed Beast works just fine for now, until Kishi decides (''if'' he decides) to tell us exactly what it is. The only thing the series tells us is the speculation of what it is from Obito (tailed beast, demon), Madara (demon), and Kurama's (god, demon) standpoint, and they're all conflicting, meaning you cannot pick and choose who is correct and who isn't. Other than that, we have noting concrete. Your speculation won't help bridge this gap. The classification we have right now is fine. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Okay... I won't push on for the time being. I just wanted a change so it's clear there's a distinction between the 9 creatures and Jubi--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:51, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Jutsu ==
 
 
why is it that only tenpenchi is in its jutsu box, i mean it used a bijuudama right?
 
[[Special:Contributions/112.208.156.223|112.208.156.223]] ([[User talk:112.208.156.223|talk]]) 05:06, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
:As it says on the main page, we have some bugs in the infobox system. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacce|Contributions]] 05:07, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Nine Tomoes ==
 
 
In chapter 632, it's eye once again displayed nine tomoes, I think it was worth of notice since it's growing closer to it's original form.[[User:World Master|World Master]] ([[User talk:World Master|talk]]) 13:06, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
:The detail wasn't even put on the eye, how can you tell?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:11, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 07:01, August 20, 2015

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Infobox imageEdit

Why are we still using the fatass Bulbasaur form? We know its true form is the "Third form", as thats what was seen in the flashbacks of Hagoromo, when Madara recreated it in a complete state, and when Kaguya reverted to it after being hit by Chibaku Tensei. --RexGodwin (talk) 22:20, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

Bump.--RexGodwin (talk) 06:05, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

Agree with this, especially since the current picture screws up its trademark eye. Anyone else?--BeyondRed (talk) 22:53, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
We're using the "fatass Bulbasaur form" in the info box because we generally use an image depicting the first appearance of the character. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 23:00, August 15, 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect Background info Edit

Not really sure where to post this, since I've seen this on this page, Hagoromo, and Hamura's pages. So I'll just go ahead and post it here. "In the final battle between the Ten-Tails and Kaguya's sons, Hagoromo and Hamura, they managed to defeat the beast and sealed it within Hagoromo, making him the first jinchūriki. This act, along with many other great deeds throughout his lifetime, resulted in Hagoromo becoming revered as the "Sage of the Six Paths". However, knowing that his death would unleash the Ten-Tails back into the world to continue its rampage and reclaim the chakra he had spread among humanity, Hagoromo separated the monster's chakra from its body and used his Creation of All Things ability to create the nine tailed beasts. Hagoromo then used Chibaku Tensei to seal the Ten-Tails' husk in what would become the moon.[5][6]"

They sealed her with http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_%E2%80%94_Chibaku_Tensei, which is what created the Moon with the husk being used as it's core. Just like when Naruto and Sasuke used it a thousand years later to do the same exact thing. Hamura departed with the rest of the Otsutsuki Clan to the Moon after the Ten-Tails' husk was sealed into what became known as the Moon. With Hagoromo having Asura and Indra many years later, and we know what happens beyond that point. Hamura's page cites the fourth databook when it says this, and Hagoromo said that he had his sons afterwards himself.

When Hagoromo appears himself and talks about things, he never says anything about surviving the extraction of the Ten-Tails' chakra due to him having it's husk within him. As that wouldn't make sense, since it's husk is in the Moon which Hamura and the clan left to guard many years ago. Only Madara, Obito, and Kurama say that. We know Madara, Obito, and Nagato aren't reliable sources, because the tablet they read from was tampered with by Black Zetsu. While Kurama is more reliable, he was basically a newborn at the time and may have forgotten some things or Hagoromo didn't tell him everything. But based on the new version of the story, Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails' body away into what became known as the Moon with Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei. While it's chakra was sealed into Hagoromo making him it's Jinchuriki, which he later extracted and created the nine Tailed Beast from, before scattering them across the world. Then he chose his son Asura as a successor to his Six Paths Senjutsu and ninshu over Indra, and then died.

So unless we're going to go based on the older version of his story told by sources less reliable than himself, which would mean there are now two bodies of the Ten-Tails' out there and Chibaku Tensei was used twice, and that Hamura would be on his deathbed too due to being the same age as his brother when he left to go to the Moon. When, in The Last, he was shown being on the Moon when young just like he was when he fought the Ten-Tails, and was stated to have gone to the Moon right after the fight with the Ten-Tails, not after his brother was about to die. Then there is only one Gedo Mazou, Chibaku Tensei was used once, and this is all going off of the new version of the story told by Hagoromo himself, The Last, the fourth databook, and common sense. So shouldn't all of the articles that keep retelling a combination of the old and new version of the story, which would mean there is two Gedo Mazous, which is clearly wrong, be changed to reflect the new version we were given at the end of the Manga, The Last, and by the fourth databook? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:59, August 16, 2015 (UTC)

Well, this is a tough one. I don't think Kurama would say something like that so surely if it were untrue.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:06, August 17, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but based on what the new version of the story is. Kurama has to be wrong, because it's impossible for Hagoromo to have the Gedo Mazou in him if it's already in the Moon. Which is why Hamura and the rest of the clan left to guard it, based on what was said in the fourth databook and The Last. If Hagoromo had it in him, and used it to create the Moon. That means there would be two moons, which there clearly isn't. Kurama was just a wee little pup back then, so it's possible that he forgot or Hagoromo didn't tell him everything. It makes more sense for Kurama to be wrong than right, or else nothing makes any sense at all. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Gedo Mazou in the core of the Moon, which Hamura and the Otsutsuki Clan left to guard, with Hagoromo becoming the Jinchuriki via it's chakra. That is the only story that makes sense, cause if we go based on all the other versions, there is two Gedo Mazous, two Moons, and Hamura would be old and nearly dead when he went to the moon, when he was shown to be young. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:35, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
New information > old information. Exceptions may happen, but that's the general rule. • Seelentau 愛 18:53, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
That's basically what I'm trying to say Seel, the new version of the story contradicts the older versions. So we should go based on what the new versions say over what the older versions say, mostly cause that's usually what happens, and if we try to combine both versions all we get is a huge illogical and contradictory mess. So don't you think the articles should be changed to reflect that? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:03, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
It isn't the wiki's responsibility to decide which version of events is "true" or try to reconcile discrepancies. It reports the information that's been given, noting who said what if needed for clarity. ~SnapperTo 16:15, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it isn't our job to correct the manga. But if old information gets updated with new information, we should abide to that, shouldn't we? • Seelentau 愛 17:03, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
You can give the new information preference, but you shouldn't exclude the old info or present the old info as if it were incorrect. ~SnapperTo 17:38, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
Alright, then I'm going to add Tobi as Madara again. • Seelentau 愛 17:47, August 19, 2015 (UTC)
Just be sure to pipe the link!
I actually don't think that's a fair comparison. The series has told us that Tobi was not really Madara. The series has not told us that Kurama's version of events was wrong. ~SnapperTo 17:53, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

Kurama was most certainly wrong/Kishi forgot/changed his mind so retcon.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:39, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

@Snapper The series tells us it's wrong because all new sources tell a different version of the story, and if we follow Kurama's version, then nothing makes sense and we got two Gedo Mazous, the moon being created twice, and Hamura being old and on his deathbed when he went to the Moon. When he went to it when young, not on his deathbed. Kurama's version literally contradicts the new version completely and does nothing more than create plotholes. I'm not saying that the page shouldn't mention Kurama's version somewhere, but it shouldn't be written in such a way that his version is correct and that the two versions go together, because they don't. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:29, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't need to present Kurama's version as being correct, it just shouldn't present Kurama's version as being wrong either. So, "According to Kurama..." and leave it that. Do not introduce doubt, do not try to explain away discrepancies. ~SnapperTo 02:25, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Then perhaps it could be written like "According to Kurama..." and then "However, Hagoromo said..." or anything else that can be said that cites Hagoromo's words, The Last, and Jin no Sho? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:06, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

What we know:

  • The Ten-Tails wasn't made moon and it made on his deathbed, legend wrong, rather, young Hagoromo and Hamura fought and defeated their mom, extracted her chakra and turned her into the Gedo Mazo and sealed inside the moon, where Hamura and folks went to guard her
  • The Tailed Beasts were created when Hagoromo was old though (flashback), he got inspired by Asura to do so
  • Thus he had kept Ten-Tails' chakra for many years
  • Since Hagoromo had no Gedo Mazo and he lived until after the creation of the Tailed Beasts, he was never a jinchuuriki, otherwise he would have died from the extraction, unless Kurama is right and he had Gedo Mazo to keep him alive for a while, which doesn't explain where the second Gedo Mazo went
  • There aren't 2 moons, so if there had been a second Gedo Mazo, it couldn't have been made into a moon then

--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 07:01, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

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