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== merge ==
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==Kaguya's Will==
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The Shinju itself was never malevolent, but it was Kaguya's will that was there the entire time since the Ten-Tails was revived. The Shinju only took chakra when Obito summoned it due to her will. The voice in the Shinju speaking to Madara was Kaguya's. When the Ten-Tails saw Hagoromo when seeing the tailed beasts chakra in Naruto, it was Kaguya who got mad and made the Ten-Tails bulk up (Cause she hates her sons). When Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails in the moon, he ended up sealing Kaguya's will as well (Meaning her will was already there in the Zetsus when Madara reawakened them). Simply put, Kaguya's will was there as long as the Ten-Tails was. Also, since Kaguya was controlling the Ten-Tails the whole time, that means she was a jinchuuriki the whole time (Not a pseudo). Anyone disagree? [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]]) 07:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:... what do you guys read? From both translations I understood that she is the Ten-Tails, so she can't be a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:: It literally said Kaguya's will is what the Ten Tails acted on. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Because Kaguya is the Ten-Tails...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:17, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
Should we merge this and Gedo Statue articles or better to wait for the next chapter for more info?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
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== Shinju and Ten-Tails ==
:I vote for the latter. Too many unknowns to do that and even if, they're two separate things. The statue just seems like a body for the Ten-Tails to inhibit, not its actual body which was sealed into the moon.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:20, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
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I think it's safe to conclude they're not one and the same. With the new chapter and that they were separate at one point with the Ten-Tails inside Madara and the Shinju still where Obito planted it.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 08:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
::Definitely wait. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:24, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
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Didn't the latest chapter confirmed that Juubi is what became of Kaguya when she ate the Fruit and not the Shinju itself? Maybe the new-born Juubi absorbed Shinju as well, but it doesn't make them the same being.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 07:40, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:::I think we should wait because theoretically the Ten-tails was firstly closed inside the Moon, which was a chibaku tensei of the Rikodou, so it is not sure if the Gedo Mazou is really some sort of container/invocating statue or not. Actually I'm not even sure on how will the ten-tails let [[Tobi]] go on with his plans and how will the statue affect on that. So I think they shouldn't be merged even knowing it, because maybe they're different things. <span class="error">Template loop detected: [[User:Khaliszt/sig subst]]</span>
 
Doesn't make much sense, Gedo Statue + chakra of all beasts = Ten-Tails, thus it must be it's body.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:26, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Confirmed. Gedo mazo is the ten tails body. Merge. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 17:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
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The Jubi is a manifestation of her will to take back the chakra that her sons held.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 08:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:the only change in the story is the reason the Shinju went out and started murdering things. The Ten-Tails and the tree being the same did't. especially since we watch the Ten-Tails become the tree.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::*facepalm* Except it never become the tree, Shinju and Juubi existed separately since Obito spawned the tree and the beast was still inside him. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 08:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::What Faust said. Read the newest chapter.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 08:50, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::'Read the newest chapter.' Well this started swimmingly. And that tree, was stated to an extension of his body after so. Why didn't it disappear? It's a giant broken tree with an eye. I don't pretend to understand that kind of chakra bs. But until stated otherwise, as I stated, the only thing that has changed is the why the Ten-Tails appeared, not that at the very base, it was originally a tree.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Also, because I'm a spiteful bastard. Unless it actually says something different, the chapter directly states that the Ten-Tails wasn't ''just'' the Shinju, but also Kaguya's pissed off will. Meaning yeah, it was a tree.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
^ Yes, because Madara said the Rinnegan enabled him to break the seal of the Sage that held the Ten-tails's body in it.
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@Uli, I understood it as that the Ten-Tails is a literal merger of the Shinju and Kaguya, not that just her will made it transform--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
In Chapter 610 page 6, Madara refers to the Ten-Tails as "Mazo"... Does this not confirm that the Gedo Mazo is the Ten-Tails after all... Merger time?...--[[User:D!ABLO-32|D!ABLO-32]] ([[User talk:D!ABLO-32|talk]]) 13:42, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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:Same thing in the end. Be it Kaguya merged with the Shinju to turn it into the Ten-Tails or just threw her will at it, the tree got up, grew a mouth, and started eating things. Though if she was totally the Ten-Tails, I doubt she would require a resurrection, but then again chakra is screwy.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:Still against it. This chapter also gave the Ten-Tails a characteristic the statue was never mentioned to have, being like a force of nature, and as such being sensable by Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:13, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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::Well, both panda and stream say they merged, we may need a raw for that. If true, then it definitely isn't the same thing, because that makes her a Tailed Beast--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::You're gonna spark a ''lot'' of fanfictions if we confirm one of the tailed beasts has a human, female form. On topic, I'd have to agree though. The way it was talked about would lead many to believe that she is at least a part of the Ten-Tails. [[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 14:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::::BZ said they sealed her after all--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:13, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
its just words swaying madara says chakra of the mazo, obito says power of the juubi, meh. or btw elvenora its just all bijuu chakra, the juubi is the fusion of all tailed beasts not body, it can go from body to body chris brown yeahaaa.--[[User:Manga-anime90001|Manga-anime90001]] ([[User talk:Manga-anime90001|talk]]) 10:47, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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== Created by Kaguya? ==
   
== New Image ==
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Am I missing something here? Why do several articles claim that Kaguya created the Shinju, using "materialised will" no less? This seems to stem from a misunderstanding. Black Zetsu said that along with the Shinju, Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails, and that her will is the reason that it sought out chakra. In no way did he say that she created the Shinju itself. He didn't even say if she intentionally created (or became) the Ten-Tails.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 19:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me...Members of the Wiki, I am a Naruto fan that likes to be surfing in this Wiki, I just checked the new Naruto chapter that debuted today, where Kurama explained to everyone what he knew about the Ten-Tails, and while he was doing it, a new image of the Ten-Tails was seen, even if it was only its back, the Ten-Tails looked kinda different, with more spiky protusions on its back and on its tails. Shouldn't this be added to the Appearence part of his page? {{Unsigned|200.59.28.10}}
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:Not sure where do people get that from. What we were told is that Kaguya merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, yet for some reason people get things like Kaguya creating the Ten-Tails or something--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
:Let's see [[User:Khaliszt|Khaliszt]] ([[User talk:Khaliszt|talk]]) 
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::Because as of now, there are two, slightly conflicting things said about this. One translation states that the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of her will (or some such) while another, while I'm not sure outwordly states they merged, refer to the Ten-Tails as Kaguya. Or some such.
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::So right now, I think a bunch of articles are fighting a battle over which is which.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:::One translation states that Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails and it carried her will, while the other actually states that her body became the Ten-Tails. Either way, neither claims she was involved in the creation of the Shinju, just its beast incarnation (Ten-Tails). If she actually created the Shinju itself, the entire story about the chakra fruit and such would be made completely invalid.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 20:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Thats not at all true. The Shinju was originally the Tree that bore the chakra fruit that kaguya ate. Because kaguya had children, they too bore chakra. She wanted that chakra back and, through her godliness, created an ''incarnation'' of the Shinju Tree and herself to reclaim that chakra. The Sons sealed the Shinju inside of Hagoromo, unknowingly sealing their mother aswell. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 20:55, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
On your point if you are talking about the appearance in the manga no I don't think the image should change because as it says and shows that is its incomplete form, it only shows with 6-9 tomeo and that it has no legs, wait until the next chapter as it appears it's form is changing. --Elvesyou 16:36, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
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== Proposal to Merge article with Kaguya's. ==
   
== Datara ==
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This is a proposal to merge the Shinju's article with Kaguya's. Any remarks?
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[[User:Superlogan7437|superlogan7437]] ([[User talk:Superlogan7437|talk]]) 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yes: Not gonna happen for at least the next five to ten chapters. We know waaaaaay too little about all that stuff. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::Definitely not. While Kaguya seems to be much more related to its existence as the Ten-Tails, the Shinju existed by itself long before Kaguya came along. Same with Kaguya, who was her own entity before the eating the chakra fruit. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:55, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Bloody hell no.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:02, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::But once the raws are out/it is further clarified and gets confirmed that Ten-Tails = Shinju+Kaguya, still separate article or merged?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Bloody hell ''no''.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Italicized for emphasis.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Bloody nor hell are valid reasons.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:18, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
I saw [[User:Cerez365]] added son info on the other Jübi name, Datara. But I create this page to discuss it because referring to the source he used, it had only one leg, and we can see the Ten-Tails has more than one.. Anyway I just want to discuss why this would be like that, and NOT the fact that it was corrected to ''Datara'', I think Cerez365 searched and took an extremely accurate source, even taking to consider the "blacksmithing" thing, it's been said that the Ten-tails created many things so it wouldn't be surprising! My guess is simply that a Beast with only one leg is much more unsurprising that such of a Beast like Ten Tails.. and Kishimoto knows that, lol [[User:Khaliszt|Khaliszt]] ([[User talk:Khaliszt|talk]])
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Patience is a virtue. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] 18:21, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Hey, let's merge all character articles because they're all shinobi! • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::Thank you.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:59, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::: And while we're at it, we can merge all chakra natures together since, hey, its just chakra. And if you really want to get technical, the tailed beasts are all just portions of the Ten-Tails, so let's merge them too. (Ok, I've had my fun. Off to get coffee). ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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Can you approach something seriously once in a while? If the manga says that she is the Ten-Tails, then we should reflect that rather than trying to find a biased reason not to--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:42, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:But she isn't the Ten-Tails. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:43, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::It would be wiser to wait. It sounds more logical to merge the Demonic Statue's and the Shinju's article than to merge Kaguya's and the Shinju's to me.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 19:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Seel, have you read the raws yet?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::No, there aren't even raws for last weeks chapter. But the translation say that the Ten-Tails was partially her, not the other way around. She is not the TT, the TT is her (partially). • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::How is that any different?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:00, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::If a cake is partially poison, then it's a cake with poison in it. If poison is partially a cake, it's poison partially made of cake. Here we had the Jubi with parts of it being Kaguya (apparently), not Kaguya with part of the TT in her. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Other than saying no to this proposal, did most of you need to approach this with ridicule and sarcastic statements? It really wasn't necessary and some of you are sysops, it's not setting an example to anyone wanting to edit here. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|SuperSajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 20:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::I believe, Elve-kun is used to this kind of tone and knows there are no hard feelings involved. :) • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::: Sysops though some of us may be, we are also regular users, who like to use sarcasm and snark to get some of our points across. Its the only way to liven up otherwise tense arguments. Hell, Elve and I get into it with our debates, but I still have no problems with the guy. He should know this by now. I hope... >.> ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:11, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Tailed beasts ==
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@Everyone, not in mood for formalities today, so just hugs. @Seel, so you admit that the TT is part Kaguya. How is that not a reason for TT and Kaguya articles merger?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
Should we go on treating them as "it"? Kurama wouldn't be happy about it.. [[User:Khaliszt|Khaliszt]] ([[User talk:Khaliszt|talk]])
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:Because all the tailed beasts are part Ten-Tails and we all know that ain't happening.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:40, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
:They've never been referred to with gender-specific pronouns in Japanese. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:05, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
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::No, only their chakra is. Otherwise they are separate characters. Saying the Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tails is like saying Naruto is Ashura--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:53, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
:: Really? Didn't know! sorry then, I didn't say anything then ^^ [[User:Khaliszt|Khaliszt]] ([[User talk:Khaliszt|talk]])
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:::The main reason for not merging those articles is: Both hold high significance in the plot on their own. It's like with Black and White Zetsu. What they did as stand-alone characters weighs more than what they did as merged characters. Also, what I said at the beginning: We know way too little about all that stuff. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 21:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: Look, because I sense a long, long, debate about what should be obvious (we leave the articles separate), can we all just buy each other drinks and call it a day? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
== classification ==
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As stated before and now clarified, the Shinju has no consciousness, it's just a magical tree. The mind of the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya, so keeping them separate is like stating she didn't exist until recently, while it was her the whole time. It was her getting angry at Naruto, it was her tearing apart Obito, it was her talking to Madara etc.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:That was only part of her. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:22, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::The ''Shinju'' and Kaguya obviously aren't being merged, so exactly is being proposed here? Merging the parts about the ''Ten-Tails'' with Kaguya? Splitting the Ten-Tails into its own article?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Yes, the Shinju is separate from Kaguya, but the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya. This article may need some serious reconstructing though--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:30, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Then splitting Shinju Tree n Ten.Ts. yes. Merging Kaguya 'nd Ten.Ts. No. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Keeping Kaguya and Ten-Tails separate simply is completely illogical. That is like if we had Orochimaru in each of his host bodies as separate characters, chronicling his actions distinctively from each.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
I don't think we should treat it as a Tailed Beasts, as they were created by So6p from it's chakra... it's more of a God/demon if anything. Even though it was sealed in the grandpa Rikudou, Tailed Beasts are just a mass of living chakra (physical and spiritual energy given soul/consciousness) while the Ten-Tail's chakra got ripped and it's body remained and it had to be sealed in the moon.
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Until the raw elucidates this matter more, no merger or split should take place. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:05, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Not to mention it's highly likely that Gedo Statue Guy is "it" thus that goes against the definition of a Tailed Beasts (being chakra monster) while the Ten-Tails was "the progenitor"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:29, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:What is even more illogical is trying to stuff the exploits of giant tree, giant tree monster, and three-eyed pyschowoman into one article. Based as of now on flimsy translations. (Because I state for the third time today, only one translation I have read said that the Ten-Tails was "all her" as you seem to believe. The other stated that the Ten-Tails was "part her".) Add to that, as per the bullcrap that is the Zetsu articles, they have done enough to '''not''' be merged together. Merging this with Kaguya is unnecessary and stupid. Splitting it into three articles is even more so. What we have now works. Doesn't beat the readers over the head with convoluted nonsense, and is much much easier to manage for the editors.
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:That said, Omnibender is right. Until the raws come out, this conversation is over.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:07, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::And I patiently am waiting for the raws. I'm just arguing in advance. Convoluted to readers should be of no concern to us, rather what is true. If Kishi tells us that she is X and Y and so, we just have to document it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Species (infobox) ==
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OMG, just one post and suddenly everyone in this wiki flips out.[[User:Superlogan7437|superlogan7437]] ([[User talk:Superlogan7437|talk]]) 02:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
Should we list it as a [[demon]]? --[[User:Aged Goblin|<font size="4"><span style='color: Goblin'><font face="Old English Text MT">'''''The Goblin'''''</font></span></font>]] 17:36, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
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So now that the viz is out, may we finally split the "ten-tails" parts from the Shinju article and merge them with Kaguya's?
:Wouldn't classifying it/ the tailed beasts as demons inaccurate o.O?--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:48, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Also at this point there's really no reason to have ten-tails and gedo mazo separated. "gedo mazo" is simply a '''nickname''' made by Madara given to the crippled form of beast Kaguya.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:53, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
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: Wrong. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu, both whom pre-date Madara, also called it the Mazo. Also against the merge. To save headaches, that is all I will say, my reasons are above. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:57, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:: edit conflict And yet Black Zetsu, who predates Madara, also calls it by that name. You still don't get why merging them is like merging all the tailed beasts, so I've given up trying to explain it, and will give you a flat no. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:58, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
I don't this we should even list it as a "tailed beast" because see above... I'm for a "deity" or something--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:41, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
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So what about splitting the Ten-Tails from the Shinju, since they are no longer just different forms of the same thing? At the very least we should call characters jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, rather than Shinju, since the Shinju itself isn't a tailed beast.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:05, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Chapter 510 ==
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The Tailed Beasts each have a separate consciousness. They are parts of chakra given form and life and as such, they are '''individual''' characters. Their consciousness isn't that of the Ten-Tails' meaning the Tailed Beasts aren't the Ten-Tails, only their chakra is that of the Ten-Tails. I also told you that you are wrong and the Tailed Beasts are no more Ten-Tails than Naruto is Ashura.... To continue.. from what we've been told by the manga, according to Kurama, the Ten-Tails has no consciousness, something proven wrong a few times. Kurama obviously meant the Shinju as having no consciousness, since the last time I checked, trees don't have any. The any and only consciousness the Ten-Tails has shown has been Kaguya's, so even though the Ten-Tails is both the Shinju and Kaguya in body, it's only Kaguya in mind, therefore the Ten-Tails and Kaguya are single character--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:07, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
This is the best scan I could find of chapter 510, and the eye seems to be missing the tomoes for me.
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No offense to anyone in particular, but I'm of the view that people should leave out their reader's/fan's bias out of the wiki while doing their editor's duties. Some may not like the way the plot has turned out, but a refusal to document recent developments just because of distaste for them greatly lowers the individuals' credibility and doesn't help the wiki either.
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Someone may not like something being true, but pretending contrary just for the sake of one's own convenience won't change the fact that it is and equals ignorance and even self-deception/delusion. An object's existence is independent of a subject's awareness and perception of it. That means, if you can't stand the way things are, feel free to read a different fiction and go edit elsewhere. And yes, I'm just making myself the wise one again :P Ignore that, but the message I tried to convey is important. Don't allow subjective feelings influence your productivity--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:01, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:I still stay no to everything Elvenora is trying to propose, on the grounds of hell no.
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:On actual grounds with merit; no to the Demonic Statue because godsdamnit we've been over that shit.
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:No on the splitting of Ten-Tails and Shinju, on the grounds that an actual article of just the tree is meaningless if the Ten-Tails is simple "Shinju+Kaguya". We gain nothing adding a new article for the tree, especially since it would essentially just be "This is a tree." Not to mention the fact that left to it's own devices, the Ten-Tails progressed to and (kinda) back from the tree.
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:No to merging Kaguya and Shinju, on similar grounds as to why we've already not merged the Demonic Statue with the Shinju. The two, while mentally "the same" are still different. Kaguya being a horned woman with serious issues, and the Ten-Tails being a giant monster. Their characters (and I don't care to listen to your crap about them being a single character. Nobody but you are opening the manga and going "These are the exact same character") are uniquely different from one and other and thus, for clarity for our readers, they remain separated. And to save you the trouble, the reason why I say this for Kaguya and the Shinju and not the Shinju and the Ten-Tails is because, the Shinju is a giant tree that is literally just there until parts of Kaguya let it walk. At the end of the day, it is still a giant tree.
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::Now I expect this to get a lot stupider before it gets better, I have taken the liberties to protect the Shinju and its Infobox, to prevent any edit war that could spark.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:09, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::: I'd like to get one thing out of the way, and its something I'm guilty of as well, but I'm flat tired of seeing it. Just because another person's view/opinion isn't yours, Elveonora, does not make it fanon, fanfiction, or their personal bias anymore than your own view is. You throw that around constantly, I suppose thinking that it makes your points more valid, but it doesn't. Believe it or not, you are not the only user around here who cares about how we present our information, as TheUltimate just clearly demonstrated with several of his reasoning. You will not continue to use that argument (that opposing viewpoints are fanfiction). Its debunked and over. Of course, I am also done doing the same, as it doesn't help the conversation in any way and, in fact, turns it into a dung-flinging contest. From now on stick to arguing your points. That said, like I said earlier, I have already expressed my views and TheUltimate and Omnibender have only reaffirmed my convictions. I am still against any merge or split. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:18, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
[[http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/Fox_969/juubi.png]]
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Hello everyone...haven't been here, trading slaps with you guys for awhile...this seems like an interesting discussion topic, on both a micro and macro point. So i'll toss my 2 cents for what they may still be worth at this point.
   
[[User:Fox616|Fox616]] ([[User talk:Fox616|talk]]) 16:46, September 27, 2012 (UTC)
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So for 1st point...no to merging Kaguya to the Shinju...information on that is too ambiguous ATM. Although for the early-mid future, with more info on the subject it would be a wise idea to perhaps open a debate forum (or re-open, i haven't been here in awhile, soo bear with my jet-lag), and go balls deep into this Gedo Mazo/Shinju/Kaguya connection, because regardless of ambiguity and different thoughts, the way they overlap is getting ''beyond silly''. Second, if i may be so forward '''all''' of us (myself included) are not 100% imparcial as writers/editors (we aren't suppose to, we're a bunch of fans, writing on a fan encyclopedia, xD)...and that's reflected on the way we handled certain article pages (unoffical jutsu names, descriptions, etc). How many articles did we have to almost rework/clean up due to how our original idea of a piece of information turned up wrong? Third, to note it's not entirely our fault since Kishi's story is growing plot-holes and retcons left and right and we editors, as a result, are left as puppets at the whims of Kishi's chakra strings. Lastly, despite this i do believe that we'll have to clean up the Gedo/Shinju/Kaguya articles to a degree. So yeah, those are my 2 cents for what they are worth. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:33, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
== "the progenitor" ==
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Dear God no. We never merged the statue with the Shinju. I don't see why we would Kaguya.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 06:16, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
Shouldn't we include such title in it's infobox?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:02, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
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But aren't we simply supposed to document what we are being told? Half the latest chapter was pretty much "Kaguya is the Ten-Tails" and the other about Madara's past. From what I can gather, the reasons against split/merger are simply bias and laziness. Pretty much: "I don't like it, it confuses me to shit and it's also lots of work, so just pretend it's not true and do nothing"
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Also Ultimate3, I proposed split of Shinju and Ten-Tails + merger of Ten-Tails and Kaguya, not merger of Shinju and Kaguya, unless I misunderstood you.
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Because even tho you may not like it, the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya the whole time. The Ten-Tails is monster form of Kaguya, it's completely mental to have two articles for the same character's different forms.
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@Foxie, point taken, but the very reason for which I throw accusations around is because '''I do care''' and if I didn't, I wouldn't waste my time here arguing with people, even though I must admit that sometimes it amuses me doing so.
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@Cerez, I don't remember any merger of the Gedo Mazo and Shinju proposed, but Gedo Mazo with Ten-Tails and Kaguya.
   
'Progenitor' means an ancestor in the direct line. The tailed beasts, and the sage were implying this to naruto, kurama thought back on.
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Anyway, we all intend the best for this place deep down somewhere, it's just we disagree on "small" details, such as what the "best" is. But you know my opinion, in my ideal world; the Demonic Statue, Ten-Tails and Kaguya would be merged and the Shinju separate, because yes, it was just a magical tree of which power incarnated into a (power) hungry woman as she ate its fruit. That's pretty much all. It isn't even clear at this point if the tree originally had any eye and might not be true.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
bump lol, even the chapter is called as such--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:32, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
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:Check chapter 670, Hagoromo showed Naruto the original form of the Shinju along with the fruit before Kaguya ate it. It was a normal big tree with a fruit. The eye probably came from Kaguya's will. Also did she put her will in the tree or herself??? A tree then a monster with an eye then a tree with an eye.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 09:40, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::The way I get it is that after Kaguya ate the Shinju's fruit, it incarnated into her, meaning they became one--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Question ==
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That's enough. Debate's over and the Admins have spoken. We leave it the way it is. [[User:Superlogan7437|superlogan7437]] ([[User talk:Superlogan7437|talk]]) 04:43, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:Says who? Also: "The sysop flag is not a status symbol. Sysop are simply other members of the community with some extra tools on the wiki"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:48, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::I say so, simply because we don't know what happened to the tree after Kaguya ate its fruit. We only know that sometime after Hagoromo and Indra were born, Kaguya and the tree manifested as the Ten-Tails. But all three characters deserve each their own article, since they were known as three different characters for most of the time and have stuff attributed to each of them. Merging any of them would make things unnecessarily complicated. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:37, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I never proposed deletion of the other articles, only Kaguya's actions and powers as the Ten-Tails being written in her article rather than in the Shinju's.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:46, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::::The actions of the Shinju (whatever they were) should stay in its article. Then, the actions of Kaguya should stay in here article and everything she and the Shinju did in form of the Ten-Tails should be written down in the TT' article. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:50, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::... the reasons why I brought up this topic and consider Foxie, Ulti and so's logic to be <s>retarded</s> are:
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# problem number one: Shinju and Ten-Tails have one article, so it credits Kaguya's doings and powers to the tree
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# problem number two: if we find out that she can transform at will back and forth from "human" to monster, dear sysops will document her farts as a monster in the Shinju's article, while her farts as a "human" in her article, this fucking makes so much sense, bravo guys--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:55, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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Watch the language.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:03, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:Moving on, if she does have the ability to transform to the Ten-Tails and back, we'd document it in both articles, like we do whenever any of the jinchuriki transforms. Not hard.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:06, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::She isn't a jinchuuriki though--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:08, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::And that doesn't matter. If she's going from human-thing to tailed beast, then it follows the same thing the jinchuriki went through, and we documented just fine. It'll if one desires to make it so.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:11, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Then why don't we document Orochimaru as a snake monster separately? Seriously, poor excuse, but I'm appreciating the effort--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:13, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Orochisnakemonsterbodyhorrormaru was never presented as a different character. Just the end result of half his life of experiments gone horribly wrong. The Ten-Tails was shown as a different character than Kaguya. You're welcome to keep trying but you already know how this is going to end.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:17, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::And that's why I feel bad for this place and you guys. But your decision. If you want things herpy derpy, I won't get in the way--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:20, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
   
Why is it that the silhouette of the Ten-Tails still being used? The only thing possibly wrong was the missing set of tomoe but in chapter 606, when Madara sent Obito into a genjutsu to explain his plan, when Madara depicted the Ten-Tails carving it was shown with only 2 rows of tomoe. Kishi could have changed the design, he has done so with other things. [[Special:Contributions/75.238.191.98|75.238.191.98]] ([[User talk:75.238.191.98|talk]]) 11:50, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
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Also @Seel, the Shinju isn't even a character, but more like a tool--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:31, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Bump[[Special:Contributions/75.234.7.254|75.234.7.254]] ([[User talk:75.234.7.254|talk]]) 01:35,
 
November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
You are indeed correct--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Please do not feed the troll. [[User:Superlogan7437|superlogan7437]] ([[User talk:Superlogan7437|talk]]) 00:25, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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:Excuse me?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:15, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
I wouldn't jump to that answer. The mural in 606 only really shows the face and is frightfully inadequate being a mural of the creature with the sage in it. If anything the image at the end of 609 is better, but given we're likely to get an even better picture of it next week, I think the higher ups basically decided it was pointless to swap it out when a better image was right around the corner and chose wait it out. If for some reason we don't get a new picture, we'll likely swap it out for the full body shot in 609. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 03:24, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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=="Shinju's" singular eye? Or Ten-Tails'?==
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Considering [[Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki#Jinchūriki|this discussion]], beginning from ''my'' comment, we know that the Shinju tree is what Hagoromo showed Naruto in chapter 670. It didn't have a singular Rinnegan, the Ten-Tails did. Therefore, I say that all articles that have the phrases "Shinju's eye/Rinnegan" or "Shinju's singular eye/Rinnegan" should be replaced with "Ten-Tails' eye/Rinnegan" and "Ten-Tails' singular eye/Rinnegan." (You know, like what you guys did replacing "Return of Madara Arc" with "Infinite Tsukuyomi Arc" or replacing "Nine-Tails" with "Kurama" in various articles). The Shinju didn't have an eye until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Saying the Shinju has a Rinnegan is inaccurate, I mean, LOOK at the Infobox for the Shinju's original tree form. No eye. Ten-Tails has the Rinnegan, Shinju doesn't. And by the way, don't come at me with "What about the tree during the war? It had a Rinnegan." Whatever that thing was that Obito summoned, it co-existed with the ''real'' Ten-Tails that Madara revived and sealed within himself. I'll reiterate my stance: The Shinju didn't have (or at least, wasn't shown with) the Rinnegan until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Anyone (Namely @Ten Tailed Fox, @Elveonora, @TheUltimate3 -- for they were in that discussion and agreed with me on the Shinju image -- and other sysops and rollbacks, etc.) disagree? [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
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: I don't on the sole fact that the Shinju ''did'' get the eye eventually. The version that Obito summoned had the eye, after all. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:41, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
I think the main point is that the eye appears to have been retconned.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:28, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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True, and saying the Ten-Tails has the eye rather than the Shinju is not only more accurate, but more consistent, given that we know the Shinju's original form eventually gained the Rinnegan by fusing with Kaguya and becoming the Ten-Tails. The original Shinju in the infobox didn't have the Rinnegan, but the Ten-Tails ''always did'', so Ten-Tails is the better option. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:No objections on my side--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
True, but the question was, why are we still using the silhouette image. Simple answer, even if retconned a mural picture doesn't cut it and timing allows for us to get a better shot come the small hours of Wednesday morning. So all we need to resolve that matter is a little patience. But if it's that big a deal, trivia about the seeming retcon can be added to trivia, right? --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 03:34, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Cool. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
What retcon is everybody talking about regarding the eye? So it's missing a ring and three tomoe, it makes sense, considering that the Ten-Tails is technically incomplete. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:45, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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== Slideshow ==
   
It has such eye in chapter 606 as well on the "wall" --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Question, why are we using an in-game render for the Juubi's second form in the slideshow instead of using a picture of it from the anime? The in-game render looks kinda poor imo and seems relatively small. Is there a reason this was done? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 17:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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:Because one was available. We only use manga images if anime or game renders are not currently available. When the anime depicts the Shinju's second form, it will likely be used. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|SuperSajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 17:17, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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::I thought it already did?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:21, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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It did two episodes ago, which is why I don't understand why it isn't in the slideshow. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 17:23, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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: I also wondered this. I have a superb image of the Jubi's second form in the anime if we'd rather use that? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:26, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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I think we should, it would make more sense and look much better. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 17:28, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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::Likely because the article has full protection on it, so nobody could add it ? That, or someone didn't add it because the game render was alright. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|SuperSajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 17:52, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Really funny, I uploaded [[:File:Ten Tails' second form.png|the same image]] last month. It was added to the article back then (don't know why it was removed again) and can also be found on [[Ten-Tails Revival Arc|these]] two [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Ten_Tailed_Fox pages]. Hence, the new one is a duplicate and needs to be removed. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 18:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Bump. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 18:10, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
As of the latest chapter , when i look at the Jūbi's eye it look like a mix of a Sharingan and Rinnegan--[[User:Tchad1|Tchad1]] ([[User talk:Tchad1|talk]]) 13:24, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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== Are we going to raise that 'thing' from this weeks chapter? ==
   
We should update the image now. Any good ones from the latest chapter? --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 18:30, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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The mess of the ten tails chakra that spewed out of Kaguya?
   
:In my opinion, there are none. Every picture of the Ten-Tails has just been awful.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:02, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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<Nope~TheUltimate3>
::Hell the best picture of it is when it roars, and that is still terrible.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:03, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::I wish it had remained a silhouette. That thing looks like Hooleer from Bleach with a cave in its mouth. Don't even get me started on the eye e_e --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:15, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Yeah, I'm not a fan of it's appearance myself, but given we can't dictate the will of Kishi, just gotta get on with it. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 19:19, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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I'm not certain it's an official form for the Shinju itself but it's definitely it's chakra and possesses the eye of the shinju. I think it should be noted somewhere in the Shinju section.[[User:Hadrimon|Hadrimon]] ([[User talk:Hadrimon|talk]]) 12:09, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:Done but looks terrible.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:17, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I think the latest chapter gave us enough good images. [[User:Derigar|Derigar]] ([[User talk:Derigar|talk]]) 19:36, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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==Fourth Form==
   
The reason why the tentails is "awfully displayed is becaused it is fully formed due to not having the 8 tails and nine tails sealed in the gedo mazou before hand. --[[User:Naruto6paths|Naruto6paths]] ([[User talk:Naruto6paths|talk]]) 19:53, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
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I've noticed on the moment [[Kaguya]] changed into the unstabled chakra form of the Ten-Tails, take a look at the obvious features of the form, with the (facial) features of [[Tailed Beasts]] such as [[Saiken]], [[Gyuki]], [[Kurama]], to which is a reminiscent to that of a [[wikipedia:Chimera|Chimera]] --[[User:Pat141elite|Pat141elite]] ([[User talk:Pat141elite|talk]]) 12:12, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Okay, I never expected my one question to get this much response, but I want to add that I dont agree with the last post. I think the Ten-Tails appearance has been retconned, the two sihlouette used for this page don't exactly match how Kurama explained the Ten-Tails to Naruto. The two images were from times that Obito talked about the Ten-Tails, which were from a couple years ago. Kurama is more reliable to its appearance than Obito because Kurama is a part of the Ten-Tails. Also the two remaining biju regonise it as the Ten-Tails, I would expect them to say something if it looked different. Also the mural from chapter 606 depicted it with how it looks like now in chapter 610. I can expect that the higher ups and some others to not agree on this, but keep an open mind because we might have a new flashback in upcoming chapters depicting the complete Ten-Tails with all its details because Kishi has no reason to shade it all anymore.--[[Special:Contributions/67.142.164.25|67.142.164.25]] ([[User talk:67.142.164.25|talk]]) 09:31, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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:Could be.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:13, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
This is naruto 6 paths speaking, the 10 tails from what you saw there is an incomplete ten-tails. You can say its like an incomplete sharingan it hasn't been completed to its potential. --[[Special:Contributions/90.145.61.214|90.145.61.214]] ([[User talk:90.145.61.214|talk]]) 14:10, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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== Chakra fruit ==
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I'm curious, since I don't know much about fruits: What fruit (or so) does the chakra fruit resemble? I'd say it's a fig, hm? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:12, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yeah, it does look a bit like a fig.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 11:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::Does that have any mythological relevance?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:29, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Figs show up in a few places, all of which could have comparisons drawn to the Shinju and Kaguya depending on interpretations. In Greek Mythology a fig tree sat over a monster that was basically a giant whirlpool, and looked out over another monster who was a beautiful sea nymph transformed into a monster by poison. Odysseus survived the whirlpool by clinging to the fig tree's branches. Figs are also present in the mythical origins of some constellations.
   
But both the Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails both say that is the Ten-Tails. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't say anything if it changed as much as this wiki says. But it doesn't change the fact that its appearance has changed a significantly from the silhouette from a couple years ago.--[[Special:Contributions/67.142.164.20|67.142.164.20]] ([[User talk:67.142.164.20|talk]]) 03:47, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
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:::In the Bible there are a few different stories about fig trees, most very similar in content. One has Jesus curse a fig tree to whither and die because it didn't have any fruit (over simplification but honestly, the full version doesn't make much sense to me). The story is supposedly a representation of a few things, including Jesus' power over nature. Figs have also been used to represent God's tree of knowledge. The final story basically uses the tree's budding leaves as a metaphor for the coming of "The Kingdom of God", which some believe refers to the apocalypse.
   
Maybe it can take on more forms, but I'm sure the eye is a retcon, unless it's an error in chapter 606--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:01, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
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:::In Buddhism there's a legend that Buddah gained enlightenment while meditating under a sacred fig.
   
I agree with the eye being a retcon, also the spikey protrustions on its back.--[[Special:Contributions/67.142.164.20|67.142.164.20]] ([[User talk:67.142.164.20|talk]]) 04:13, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
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:::So as you can see, there are some parallels with what we're seeing in Naruto at the moment, but nothing concrete. I'd say the Greek legends are entirely irrelevant and the Biblical ones are pretty unlikely to be involved with Kishimoto's inspiration for the Shinju and its fruit.--[[User:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] ([[User talk:Soul reaper|talk]]) 13:20, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Plant-like Appearance ==
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...I actually meant the looks of the fruit, not some kind of background. Needed it for a description in the German wiki, nothing special... :D • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:30, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:It's still good to know some mythology :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
Ok, it's pretty obvious the Ten-Tails has a plant-like look. It's body is covered by veins, its tails look like closed buds (and in its complete form those ones looks like foliage) and it has branch-like spiky protrusions on its back (well, the Mazou also have them, but you get the idea) I think it's worthy to add that to the ''Appearance'' section. [[User:Adept-eX|Adept-eX]] ([[User talk:Adept-eX|talk]]) 02:05, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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== so now that it's known ==
   
It's kinda plantish, it's skin is wooden--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:36, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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That Kaguya has Wood Release, is the whole "Obito channeled Wood Release" thing still valid?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:09, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
:It's skin is what? I highly doubt that beast's body has the same construct as the statue. It looks like it has flesh. Also, I'd assume you're saying it looks plant-like simply because of the lines on its body, which I don't see.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 07:21, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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:Yes, because the TT wasn't Kaguya at that point, but a mindless beast. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 09:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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::Where did you get she was mindless?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Yeah, I don't think she was mindless. I'm pretty sure it was her that reacted to Hagoromo's likeness in Naruto when she (as the TT) sensed the tailed beasts within Naruto. Plus she is the will and mind of the TT. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 09:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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::::From the behaviour of the TT. Even if she's its will, she doesn't necessarily have control over the TT. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Think of it this way. If she was in 100% control of the Ten-Tails at that time, why did she bother wasting her time trying to nuke Naruto when she could have just looked up, cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi herself and claimed victory?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:38, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
Even those things connected to Obito and Madara are the same as from Hashi clone/Gedo statue so I guess it still has woodish/plantish texture--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:23, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
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The Ten-Tails reacted to chakras of the Tailed Beasts and Rinnegan visage inside of Naruto and made a hand seal (hand seals are human invention I think, not of mindless beasts) Not to mention I'm more than positive it was Kaguya talking to Madara to absorb the tree, thus yes, the Ten-Tails is clearly conscious and of Kaguya's consciousness. And no idea about IF, but you could apply that reasoning pretty much to anything. "why didn't x villain kill y hero when he clearly had a chance?"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:43, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
Didn't a ton of people guess the Gedo Mazo's statue was made of wood? I suggest holding off until it's texture is made clearly visible by the anime or a colored manga page. [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 10:08, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
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:Note; I never said the Ten-Tails was a mindless beast. I said Kaguya was not in 100% control. The Ten-Tails trying to nuke Naruto was very much conscious. I don't think the Ten-Tails was like "Yo, my plans about to come true. Weeeee".--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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::Hand seals are a human invention. Who controlled the TT at that time? Madara and Obito. Also, Kaguya was born before hand seals were invented. Why would she use them? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:50, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Except Madara attributed the hand seal to the Ten-Tails focusing it chakra as a reaction for observing Naruto's chakras. And we don't know when hand seals were invented, they are used to mold and manipulate chakra and Kaguya has chakra, so logically she would use some?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:56, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He did? Hm.
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::::Yes, and they were invented by the humans who got Hagoromo's chakra. Kaguya didn't need to create chakra, she got it from the fruit. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
Looking at the way the tail is unfurling at the end of the latest chapter, this theory may officially have weight. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 20:12, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
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0_o new chakra continuously has to be produced my merging physical and mental energies, hand seals help with that. They are also used to transform chakra while performing techniques--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:15, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:As I said, the humans were the first ones to merge those energies. I don't think Hagoromo or Kaguya ever used seals. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
== Connectors ==
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::Weren't we shown Kaguya running out of chakra, having Black Zetsu mold more for her? So yes, even she has to merge physical and mental energies to produce more chakra, it's not like she has infinite after all--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:25, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
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:::When? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Ok... So Madara and Tobi both physically connect with the [[Ten-Tails]], giving them the ability to control it. This ability to connect is mentioned on the [[Demonic Statue of the Outer Path]]'s page, though not here. [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 10:12, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
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::::Chapter 687, unless I misunderstood it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
:Because the aforementioned connection was with the living clone, not directly with the statue. We're all unclear what's going on there.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:31, November 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Natural Energy ==
 
 
In the mangastream translation, naruto says its essentially a giant mass of natural energy. Can someone please translate to see if this is accurate? If so, it should be added to the abilities/trivia section. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 00:53, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Raws aren't available yet, at least not where I usually read them. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:05, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Current Appearance ==
 
 
I think the Ten-Tails still has a chance of maturing based on Madara saying controlling it will get more difficult. I understand that as its getting stronger and has a chance to mature more. The thing took one step closer to looking like its sihlouette but then two steps back because it grew weird horn things on its head, its missing a arm and is emaciated. As I type its current appearance at the time is being used to showcase its real appearance and would like it to be changed back to its old appearance.--[[Special:Contributions/67.142.164.26|67.142.164.26]] ([[User talk:67.142.164.26|talk]]) 07:29, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It likely has multiple forms and no "true form" as it changes constantly. EDIT: it's said to be a force of nature, maybe it's some sort of adaptation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:54, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== eye retcon again ==
 
 
The article says that the Ten-Tails has 6 tomoe instead of 9 cause it's incomplete, completely ignoring the fact that it also had such in Madara's "flashback dimension" and it's present even after it's transformation. It's apparent that Kishi changed his mind about this one--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:13, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:36, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Still makes more sense, and in all of the actual flashback depictions, it had nine tomoe. The Ten-Tails in that genjutsu looked as faithful to the original as the murals of Matatabi and Gyūki look to them in the Island Turtle, which isn't that much, just enough for us to know what it was. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:04, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
We don't know either way, that's why I think the whole mention of "having 6 tomoe due to being incomplete" should be removed, and a trivia made instead with: "in it's initial appearance it had 9 tomoe words words words but since words words words it's portrayed with 6" so it's true both ways and everyone can make their own opinion of it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:15, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Maturity ==
 
 
In chapter 612 on the last page in the last panel, there's no word about maturity or perfect stage. It says something about ''suitable/good time'' (頃合い), but I don't know what the よう means. :/ [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:16, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:[http://tangorin.com/dict.php?dict=general&s=%E3%82%88%E3%81%86 Take your pick]. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:56, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
::I know, but I don't know which it could be, there are too many options :/ But I doubt the meaning of it would change the meaning of the whole sentence to something along maturity... [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:37, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
よう simply means ''it seems''. So there's no word about maturity or such, Madara/Obito just says that "the Jūbi seems to be just right". :) [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 04:53, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Incomplete Mature form ==
 
 
FYI, the Ten-Tails' mature form is still incomplete. I bet that it will be fully complete on maybe the final arc.
 
 
 
--[[User:Pipeliz265|Pipeliz265]] ([[User talk:Pipeliz265|talk]]) 21:13, December 12, 2012 (UTC)----
 
Pipeliz265
 
 
== How is its eye being used to target speculation? ==
 
 
We specifically see it on 613, page 6, shift its eye around and began targeting, trying to hit HQ. How else were we supposed to interpret that scene other than the very obvious?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 09:13, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Unless it's blind, an eye can see lol--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:36, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Chapter 613 - The scale of the Juubi's latest Bijuudama ==
 
 
I think you're going to want to mention the scale of the bijuudamas this new Juubi form is producing.
 
 
If you look carefully at the double page where the first Bijuudama is fired you'll notice the five lakes from the first bijuudamas from the junchuuriki. Also you'll notice a long trail with the Juubi in it which I believe was created by the Hachibi and Kyuubi's combined bijuudama.
 
 
However the Bijuudama in the background is unreal in how large it is when you compare it to the old bijuudamas.
 
 
I'm not sure how you would but this'd be a really good thing to show in the abilities section of the Juubi's page as a comparison.
 
[[Special:Contributions/86.133.99.27|86.133.99.27]] ([[User talk:86.133.99.27|talk]]) 22:46, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:The long trail was probably due to the immature form's Bijuudama beam...--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 15:51, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Would't that be a ark? the idea that it's from Kurama's and Gyūki's combined Bijuudama makes more sense to me.([[Special:Contributions/2.99.224.76|2.99.224.76]] ([[User talk:2.99.224.76|talk]]) 14:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC))
 
 
== Mokuton/Wood Release ==
 
 
In chapter 614, it can be seen that Obito is using the Ten-Tails' body as a medium to throw the Wood Piercing Branches. I suggest we shouldn't put it like the beast can use Wood Release, but instead it can launch the techniques created by its controller.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 15:54, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It should be listed as a user of the technique but having hit as a pure user of wood release would be complicated to explain. --[[User:Naruto6paths|Naruto6paths]] ([[User talk:Naruto6paths|talk]]) 16:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Ergo why it shouldn't be listed because it wasn't the one using it.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:52, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I don't think soo...usually chanelling chakra is done from a user to an ''object'', not a living being, and its usually just the chakra, not the entire technique...and we know that tailed beasts can use/have nature transformations. Besides Obito could have only been directing the beast to attack. Son Goku/Lava Release for one? So i do believe that it could use the Wood Release...it would also partially explain the origin of it and how it went to Hashirama. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 16:54, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Do note; until Naruto took control of the Nine-Tails, he was never listed as using the Tailed Beast Ball as someone else (the Nine-Tails) was in control of his body. It would not be beyond the realm of reason to believe the same is happening now.
 
:That being said, it is entirely possible the Ten-Tails could use Wood Release, but until the beast starts moving on it's own, I honestly can't say.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::This is making the issue more complicated thann it should be. The Jūbi is the one that used the technique, and as such it can use Wood release. Until we get further explanation, we should list every single fact. [[User:Derigar|Derigar]] ([[User talk:Derigar|talk]]) 17:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:::And I repeat, when Naruto used the Tailed Beast Ball during the Invasion of Pain, he wasn't listed as a user because, he didn't actually use it. Same deal here to be honest but discuss away.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::The difference is: Naruto is a jinchuriki...the nine-tails is sealed inside him in a way that Naruto can channel the beast's powers. With the Ten-Tails this is not the case, it isn't sealed into anyone it used it on his own...i think the problem is that he used the same technique as Obito. Plus it's true, were complicating the issue too much. The Ten-Tails used the technique, he can use it, then list him. Anything other than that.... that will be speculation. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 17:30, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Anything other than that would be speculation? Alrighty, let's list Yahiko as a user of Shinra Tensei then. After all, his body performed the technique, even if he was just Nagato's little Rinnegan Puppet, right? The flaw in your argument here is that we're given a vague proposition. We have the Ten Tails launching a wood release technique. The problem is, its being controlled by Obito and only used a technique he has. Now I don't have a position on this, it's honestly up in the air for me to call, but let's not dissuade others opinions as speculation. It's fact that the Ten Tails performed the technique, but that's like saying just cause Gaara uses Shukaku''s sand its the beast's ability and not his. The Beast could be no more than facilitating this ability, not being an actual user. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 19:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
:And the flaws in your arguments are thus...first Yahiko was dead when he was made a Six Paths of Pain puppet. The modifications to him were done post-mortem. And the difference is neither Obito nor Madara are the beast's jinchuriki by which neither can use the beast's techniques and vice-versa. Gaara retained his ability to use sand, but he only gained it by being Shukaku's jinchuriki. This is like saying that Son Goku's Flower Fruit Mountain technique is not his own...it could have been something developed by Roshi, but again we don't know. If someone uses a technique, list them as a user and unless contradictory evidence appears, let it stay. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 20:11, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
So now i ask...when have ever seen a situation like this? A technique being channeled through another living being? What's the point? Why not use it himself? I also ask what's more speculative? That the beast can use Mokuton or that Obito pulled off a completely new concept? Besides Obito and Madara mentioned they were taking a back seat to use the beast's powers soo...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:15, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Since Ten-Tails is flowrish/treeish, I say it's possible for it to be the source of Wood Release (along with Sharingan and Rinnegan) but that's just my mumbling :) On topic, I say we should add Ten-Tails as a user, because not adding it is the same logic as removing Tailed Beast Ball from it's infobox since it's being controlled and not using it by itself--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:18, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Safer and most logical approach to me, for now, is to keep Obito as the technique's only user, and say he used it through the Ten-Tails. He even did a hand gesture and all, as if performing the motion of the technique. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:27, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
What about a collaborative technique "large fast spikes wood no jutsu, obito uchiha with ten-tails" or something?;)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:52, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
"Sigh"...it was the Ten-Tails who used the technique...i don't remember chakra flow working through living beings and neither saw one technique being used through another being as well. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:01, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
That's why I'm saying we should treat it as been done by both of them to avoid speculation. Also I doubt Obito is THAT strong, he either used Ten-Tails' chakra (but he ain't a jinchuriky so how?) thus unlikely, channeled Wood Release through Ten-Tails (this still makes the Ten-Tails a user) or it was work of the monster alone with Obito just giving order, you decide--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:07, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
:The more direct and simple explanation is that Obito commanded the beast to use the technique, since that's pretty much what he's focused on...i doubt he'd waste his own chakra into a technique since both Uchiha are struggling a bit to control the juubi as it is so they are pretty much focused on that. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:11, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Two things
 
:1) People appear to be gleefully ignoring my point that if something isn't in control of it's actions, it doesn't get listed as using it. I will remind people again, Naruto didn't get Tailed Beast Ball added to his infobox, until he got Tailed Beast Mode and did it then. Tobi focusing a jutsu through the Ten-Tails is the same as the Nine-Tails focusing the Tailed Beast Ball through Naruto.
 
:2) Someone made the point to remove the Tailed Beast Ball from the Ten-Tails because Obito and Madara had made the demon do it. Unlike the above, the Tailed Beast Ball is literally the demon attack. Even if Madara and Obito never fired a shot, it would be listed because all tailed beasts have it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 05:28, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: And you seem to forget the difference between Naruto and Madara/Tobi is that the first is a jinchuriki in other words the beast and it's powers are sealed and can be channeled because of it. The latter ones are just controling the monster. It's like the difference between driving a machine and becoming the machine itself. Another thing...yeah Obito's powerful, but to pull off a Wood Release of that scale given the difficulty to use this kekkei genkai it seems difficult at best when they are already struggling to keep the Ten-Tails under control seems off. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:38, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Since the ten tails is the maifestation of almost everything, it should be able to use every nature, even ying and yang release and everything else. [[Special:Contributions/94.135.247.44|94.135.247.44]] ([[User talk:94.135.247.44|talk]]) 19:41, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
: If chakra isn't able to be transfered into living beings then why was Tsunade and several others able to transfer chakra to other poeple (sarcasim)?[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.231|71.71.58.231]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.231|talk]]) 00:25, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
 
::One thing is using chakra to heal/replenish another person, the other is using another person as a medium for one's own technique which seems as a much more far-fetched concept than the Ten-Tails being able to use the Wood Release on his own. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:33, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
::: Chiyo used Naruto's chakra to help with her Reanimation Technique remember?[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.231|71.71.58.231]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.231|talk]]) 00:40, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
 
:::: Again same difference: Chakra flow vs technique medium. Chiyo used Naruto's chakra cuz she was empty, she didn't use Naruto as a medium for it, she was still the one using the technique. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:44, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::: True. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible.[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.231|71.71.58.231]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.231|talk]]) 01:02, December 20, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
 
 
It seems a bit difficult to accept that Obito could pull off something of that scale, since his Wood Release abilities aren't all that powerful nor is his control over the Ten-Tails perfect and also that the chakra flow concept is from a person to an object, not from a living being to another. [[Special:Contributions/2.80.178.114|2.80.178.114]] ([[User talk:2.80.178.114|talk]]) 23:33, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Chakra Arms? ==
 
 
Various articles refer to Ten-Tails' hand-like tails in its second form as "chakra arms", like those used by jinchūriki in Version 1/2. However, the arms are actually part of the Ten-Tails' physical anatomy, not formed from chakra. Unlike the tailed beasts, it actually possesses a true physical body, rather than being chakra given solid form. For consistency, should these articles not be changed to reflect this fact?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 23:15, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Yes, the term chakra arms are being used wrong in this case, they aren't arms made of chakra, they are simply the Ten-Tails' tails, that now are tipped with hands. Freaky little thing isn't it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:17, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Given how the tailed beasts are basically chakra constructs, the extra arms can be put under this banner. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:26, December 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
: No they can't. He is not using the chakra arms at all. The Ten-Tails is using its tails as hands, nothing more. Ultimate is right, it should be removed. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:01, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Chakra arms come in a variety of ways so the fact that the Ten-Tails uses the arm in a different manner does not invalidate that fact. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:37, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Chakra arms have one universal trait though; ''they are made of pure chakra''. When Killer Bee uses the Eight-Tails' tentacle tails for stuff, he is not using chakra arms, he is using tails. The Ten-Tails using it's hand-tail monstrosities are not using chakra arms, but its freaky hand-tail monstrosities.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:03, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::And tailed beasts also have a universal trait: ''they are also made of pure chakra'', so in this case it may be that the Juubi is simply putting a spin onto a classic. I believe that tails or not, if they are extra arms, they are chakra arms.[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:18, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Except Ten-Tails isn't a Tailed Beast, it's a tailed beast. People should realize that, Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tail's chakra split into 9 and given physical form and soul/mind.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:25, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Then by that standart none of the techniques that list him as a user should be there. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:34, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
You misunderstand... it's the origin of Tailed Beasts, but not one itself, there's just not a better classification yet. God/demon/monster/nature itself whatever. The point being that it's not animated chakra, it was a physical being, stayed a physical being after it's chakra has been split and still is. In short, it doesn't use chakra arms, those are it's body--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:40, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Since it's the origin, it has multiple tails, and how they keep repeating that all the tailed beast abilities are by-products of the Juubi's powers and that it can be sealed into a human to create a jinchuuriki, it's still a tailed beast. Just because something is the origin of a category, doesnt mean it isn't a ''part'' of said category. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:44, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
For the first, exactly, it's a "tailed beasts" because it has tails and being a monster and all. Orochimaru was absorbed by Sasuke and the latter could use his abilities, does that make Sasuke an ex-jinchuriky now? The series made it clear that things can be sealed into other things and even people--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:54, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:The Sage of the Six Paths was the first jinchuriki, the Juubi is stated as a tailed beast, the first one. Madara's goal is to become a jinchuriki for the TT so i fail to see your point. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:58, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Apparently "_" well the topic is about arms, so let's stick with arms--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 06:04, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Yes, stick to the topic at hand, which are the status of Chakra Arms. To respond to Darksusanoo, no. The Eight-Tails, well eight tails are all technically arms. Six of the Seven-Tails' tails are wings. Whatever strange form their tails end up taking, they are still tails.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:25, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Maybe offtopic, but if I'm not mistaken, Killer B uses "chakra arms" that aren't really arms but horns in his cloak 1 [[Lariat]].
 
Maybe we should rename it "chakra limbs/appendages/manifestation" or something. But yeah, the Ten-Tails. No, not made of chakra thus not chakra arms. I vote for removal of such mentions in all instances--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:48, December 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Agreed. No matter how Darksusanoo rephrases it, the fact is that the Ten-Tails has used the [[Tailed Beast Ball]]. It used the shockwave right away. But it has ''not'', under any circumstances, used the [[Tailed Beast Chakra Arms]]. It simply used its physical tails (no matter how they are shaped) to attack. Period. It should be removed. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:44, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Demonic Statue and Ten-Tails abilities ==
 
 
Since the Statue and Ten-Tails are one and the same, i think that all of the abilities/attacks shown by the Statue, should also be stated in the Ten-Tails Infobox and abilities section. Even if what it used as the Statue was gained by outside means, it didn't lose then when it became complete as the Ten-Tails. Opinions are welcome and needed. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:08, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:The Ten-Tails hasn't shown the ability to shoot chakra lasers or have shown a shockwave shout, so yes from what it looks like it did lose something. We can't say what the statue does the full Ten-Tails could do.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:12, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
::There are one and the same...if it were the other way around i would agree with you, but it's extremely implausible for the complete thing not being capable of doing the what i could do when it was incomplete...plus the whole shockwave looks more like it's equivalent the Tailed Beast Skill than anything else. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:17, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Ha, this topic again, I love it. Well, humans lost their fur and tails ;D--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:51, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Well @Elve...that's reality, this is manga/anime...it's perferctly reasonable that what the beast could do in a de-powered state, he could also do in it near-full power state. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:28, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Since they are the same entity, it should be merged, we don't list Naruto in Sage Mode and Kurama mode as 2 different characters--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:49, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:The difference being, Naruto doesn't stop being Naruto when he powers up. The Ten-Tails stopped being the Ten-Tails when it died. It's body was then used to become the Demonic Statue. This has been discussed to death.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:21, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
It NEVER died, where do you get that from?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:48, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Died, chakra removed, whatever. It for all extensive purposes died when it's chakra was removed. Anyway the only logical way to justify the two articles being merged would be that you must also justify why the other tailed beast aren't merged. They are after all parts of the Ten-Tails too.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:06, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
It never died, stop making things up, it stayed pretty much alive. TB are their own entities, just because their bodies were created from Jubi's chakra doesn't make them one with it.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:26, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:But following your logic, yeah it kinda does. The Demonic Statue by your logic is no different from the other Tailed Beasts, it is a different entity from the monster it came from in that it is a ''statue'', just like the Nine-Tails is different from the monster it came from in that it is a ''giant fox''. Unless you deliberately pick and choose if the Demonic Statue, being the empty body of the Ten-Tails given a new purpose, is different than the Tailed Beast, is the chakra of the Ten-Tails given new forms and a new purpose, then they cannot and should not be merged.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:33, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
The Statue is Ten-Tails stripped of most of it's chakra, it never died. TB are animated chakra, in other words, Ten-Tails never died nor ceased to be it's own entity, it just got weakened--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:42, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Then explain to me how we are in a Ten-Tails Revival Arc then?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:44, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
::I'll save you the trouble: Nobody has referred to the Ten-Tails as being dead, but they haven't said it was "alive" either. In fact, the mention that the Ten-Tails lost "most" of its chakra is something you just made up because when the Sage was said to be entering the end of his life, he was said to "divide the Ten-Tails' chakra into the nine Tailed Beasts and then put the body in the moon". It did not say "separated most of the chakra and hid the rest on the moon".--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:48, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Into it's "true" form and full power, the Statue looked alive enough to me, corpses do not move and make noises. Since Madara was sucking it's chakra to stay alive, obviously some of it stayed. Naruto also pulled Nine-Tails' chakra yet it still had enough to create the super giant TBB, notice, we are talking about the creation itself, it's said to be God of Narutoverse basically, you can't kill it. If it was killable, Sage would have done so, to save everyone troubles--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:52, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:And he killed it about as well as he could; Divided the chakra into the Tailed Beasts and the body into the moon where it would eventually be brought back to earth as the Demonic Statue. And here we are right back to the point I was originally making, you cannot pick and decide that the Tailed Beasts keep their articles when they are just parts of the Ten-Tails and say Demonic Statue losses its article for being a part of the Ten-Tails. And because I know where you will go right after this, here is some simple mathematics.
 
:::Ten-Tailed Beast = (Shukaku chakra x Matatabi chakra x Isobu chakra x Son Goku chakra x Saiken chakra x Chomei chakra x Gyuki chakra x Kurama chakra) + Demonic Statue of the Outer Path
 
:You see that math? If not look over it again. And I was going to comment on corpses don't move but that would have been far to easy.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:59, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Don't play dumb please, TB's CHAKRA is a part of Ten-Tails not their souls, they themselves are their own entities, separate characters. Chakra isn't a character, yet they are not just chakra but living things, at least two of them are at the moment.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:14, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
==Image==
 
Why is a silhouette used as the infobox image when we have now actually seen the real Jūbi's appearance?--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 21:41, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
 
:We've seen either poor representations of the silhouette in the anime, and in the manga, the final form has yet to be seen. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:43, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Why not use either of the forms we've seen in the manga? certainly better than a god-awful sillhouette picture--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 22:24, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Because they're not its final form. We'll get it either when it matures all the way, or when we get a flashback to the Sage's time. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:33, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
[http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/were+all+fucked.+sorry+bout+the+crooked+words_144402_3859868.jpg That's right]--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:34, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== what the... ==
 
 
Affiliation Akatsuki? 0_o wut?!--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:24, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Think it has something to do with it being part of the Akatsuki war machine in the war. But technically it is wrong.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:48, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I see Kurama is listed as being affiliated with Konoha too, why is that? Both are prisoners, not comrades--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:27, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:The Nine-Tails is a weird one. One through Seven, none of those tailed beasts are aligned with any faction, unless you count them making peace with their jinchuriki during Naruto's talk with them. Bee and the Eight-Tails are literally partners of Kumo so if even on a technicality, The Eight-Tails is affiliated with Kumo. The Nine-Tails up until the Fourth War was just a pissed off fox sealed in a kids gut, but Naruto's "You're my ally from Konoha" comment and then the fox doing absolutely nothing to deny it and even became the pseudo-commander the Allied Shinobi squad fighting Tobi, he is too, on a sharp technicality, affiliated with Konoha.
 
 
:In short, Two through Seven, could be affiliated if they "allied" with their jinchuriki during their short time talking but its up in the air. One-Tail is missing from this because lawl.
 
: Eight-Tails is affiliated with Kumo due to its partnership with Killer Bee.
 
: Nine-Tails is affiliated with Konoha due to its partnership with Naruto Uzumaki.
 
: Ten-Tails is listed as affilated with Akatsuki because when Demonic Statue was affiliated with Akatsuki, but is technically a mindless disaster so it is just as likely affiliated with the stick floating in the river than any organization.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:35, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Exactly :D that's why I remove TT, it has no friends T_T--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:59, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 10:45, August 20, 2014

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Kaguya's WillEdit

The Shinju itself was never malevolent, but it was Kaguya's will that was there the entire time since the Ten-Tails was revived. The Shinju only took chakra when Obito summoned it due to her will. The voice in the Shinju speaking to Madara was Kaguya's. When the Ten-Tails saw Hagoromo when seeing the tailed beasts chakra in Naruto, it was Kaguya who got mad and made the Ten-Tails bulk up (Cause she hates her sons). When Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails in the moon, he ended up sealing Kaguya's will as well (Meaning her will was already there in the Zetsus when Madara reawakened them). Simply put, Kaguya's will was there as long as the Ten-Tails was. Also, since Kaguya was controlling the Ten-Tails the whole time, that means she was a jinchuuriki the whole time (Not a pseudo). Anyone disagree? WindStar7125 (talk) 07:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

... what do you guys read? From both translations I understood that she is the Ten-Tails, so she can't be a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast.--Elveonora (talk) 13:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
It literally said Kaguya's will is what the Ten Tails acted on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Because Kaguya is the Ten-Tails...--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju and Ten-Tails Edit

I think it's safe to conclude they're not one and the same. With the new chapter and that they were separate at one point with the Ten-Tails inside Madara and the Shinju still where Obito planted it.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC) Didn't the latest chapter confirmed that Juubi is what became of Kaguya when she ate the Fruit and not the Shinju itself? Maybe the new-born Juubi absorbed Shinju as well, but it doesn't make them the same being.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:40, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

The Jubi is a manifestation of her will to take back the chakra that her sons held.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

the only change in the story is the reason the Shinju went out and started murdering things. The Ten-Tails and the tree being the same did't. especially since we watch the Ten-Tails become the tree.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 08:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
  • facepalm* Except it never become the tree, Shinju and Juubi existed separately since Obito spawned the tree and the beast was still inside him. Faust-RSI (talk) 08:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
What Faust said. Read the newest chapter.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:50, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
'Read the newest chapter.' Well this started swimmingly. And that tree, was stated to an extension of his body after so. Why didn't it disappear? It's a giant broken tree with an eye. I don't pretend to understand that kind of chakra bs. But until stated otherwise, as I stated, the only thing that has changed is the why the Ten-Tails appeared, not that at the very base, it was originally a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Also, because I'm a spiteful bastard. Unless it actually says something different, the chapter directly states that the Ten-Tails wasn't just the Shinju, but also Kaguya's pissed off will. Meaning yeah, it was a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

@Uli, I understood it as that the Ten-Tails is a literal merger of the Shinju and Kaguya, not that just her will made it transform--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Same thing in the end. Be it Kaguya merged with the Shinju to turn it into the Ten-Tails or just threw her will at it, the tree got up, grew a mouth, and started eating things. Though if she was totally the Ten-Tails, I doubt she would require a resurrection, but then again chakra is screwy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Well, both panda and stream say they merged, we may need a raw for that. If true, then it definitely isn't the same thing, because that makes her a Tailed Beast--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
You're gonna spark a lot of fanfictions if we confirm one of the tailed beasts has a human, female form. On topic, I'd have to agree though. The way it was talked about would lead many to believe that she is at least a part of the Ten-Tails. Atrix471 (talk) 14:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
BZ said they sealed her after all--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Created by Kaguya? Edit

Am I missing something here? Why do several articles claim that Kaguya created the Shinju, using "materialised will" no less? This seems to stem from a misunderstanding. Black Zetsu said that along with the Shinju, Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails, and that her will is the reason that it sought out chakra. In no way did he say that she created the Shinju itself. He didn't even say if she intentionally created (or became) the Ten-Tails.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure where do people get that from. What we were told is that Kaguya merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, yet for some reason people get things like Kaguya creating the Ten-Tails or something--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Because as of now, there are two, slightly conflicting things said about this. One translation states that the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of her will (or some such) while another, while I'm not sure outwordly states they merged, refer to the Ten-Tails as Kaguya. Or some such.
So right now, I think a bunch of articles are fighting a battle over which is which.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
One translation states that Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails and it carried her will, while the other actually states that her body became the Ten-Tails. Either way, neither claims she was involved in the creation of the Shinju, just its beast incarnation (Ten-Tails). If she actually created the Shinju itself, the entire story about the chakra fruit and such would be made completely invalid.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Thats not at all true. The Shinju was originally the Tree that bore the chakra fruit that kaguya ate. Because kaguya had children, they too bore chakra. She wanted that chakra back and, through her godliness, created an incarnation of the Shinju Tree and herself to reclaim that chakra. The Sons sealed the Shinju inside of Hagoromo, unknowingly sealing their mother aswell. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 20:55, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge article with Kaguya's. Edit

This is a proposal to merge the Shinju's article with Kaguya's. Any remarks? superlogan7437 (talk) 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yes: Not gonna happen for at least the next five to ten chapters. We know waaaaaay too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Definitely not. While Kaguya seems to be much more related to its existence as the Ten-Tails, the Shinju existed by itself long before Kaguya came along. Same with Kaguya, who was her own entity before the eating the chakra fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:55, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:02, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
But once the raws are out/it is further clarified and gets confirmed that Ten-Tails = Shinju+Kaguya, still separate article or merged?--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Italicized for emphasis.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody nor hell are valid reasons.--Elveonora (talk) 18:18, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task 18:21, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, let's merge all character articles because they're all shinobi! • Seelentau 愛 18:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Thank you.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:59, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
And while we're at it, we can merge all chakra natures together since, hey, its just chakra. And if you really want to get technical, the tailed beasts are all just portions of the Ten-Tails, so let's merge them too. (Ok, I've had my fun. Off to get coffee). ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 19:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can you approach something seriously once in a while? If the manga says that she is the Ten-Tails, then we should reflect that rather than trying to find a biased reason not to--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

But she isn't the Ten-Tails. • Seelentau 愛 19:43, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
It would be wiser to wait. It sounds more logical to merge the Demonic Statue's and the Shinju's article than to merge Kaguya's and the Shinju's to me.--JOA20 (talk) 19:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Seel, have you read the raws yet?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, there aren't even raws for last weeks chapter. But the translation say that the Ten-Tails was partially her, not the other way around. She is not the TT, the TT is her (partially). • Seelentau 愛 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
How is that any different?--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
If a cake is partially poison, then it's a cake with poison in it. If poison is partially a cake, it's poison partially made of cake. Here we had the Jubi with parts of it being Kaguya (apparently), not Kaguya with part of the TT in her. • Seelentau 愛 20:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Other than saying no to this proposal, did most of you need to approach this with ridicule and sarcastic statements? It really wasn't necessary and some of you are sysops, it's not setting an example to anyone wanting to edit here. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 20:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
I believe, Elve-kun is used to this kind of tone and knows there are no hard feelings involved. :) • Seelentau 愛 20:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Sysops though some of us may be, we are also regular users, who like to use sarcasm and snark to get some of our points across. Its the only way to liven up otherwise tense arguments. Hell, Elve and I get into it with our debates, but I still have no problems with the guy. He should know this by now. I hope... >.> ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 21:11, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Everyone, not in mood for formalities today, so just hugs. @Seel, so you admit that the TT is part Kaguya. How is that not a reason for TT and Kaguya articles merger?--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Because all the tailed beasts are part Ten-Tails and we all know that ain't happening.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:40, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, only their chakra is. Otherwise they are separate characters. Saying the Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tails is like saying Naruto is Ashura--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The main reason for not merging those articles is: Both hold high significance in the plot on their own. It's like with Black and White Zetsu. What they did as stand-alone characters weighs more than what they did as merged characters. Also, what I said at the beginning: We know way too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 21:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Look, because I sense a long, long, debate about what should be obvious (we leave the articles separate), can we all just buy each other drinks and call it a day? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 22:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

As stated before and now clarified, the Shinju has no consciousness, it's just a magical tree. The mind of the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya, so keeping them separate is like stating she didn't exist until recently, while it was her the whole time. It was her getting angry at Naruto, it was her tearing apart Obito, it was her talking to Madara etc.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

That was only part of her. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The Shinju and Kaguya obviously aren't being merged, so exactly is being proposed here? Merging the parts about the Ten-Tails with Kaguya? Splitting the Ten-Tails into its own article?--BeyondRed (talk) 22:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Shinju is separate from Kaguya, but the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya. This article may need some serious reconstructing though--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Then splitting Shinju Tree n Ten.Ts. yes. Merging Kaguya 'nd Ten.Ts. No. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 22:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Keeping Kaguya and Ten-Tails separate simply is completely illogical. That is like if we had Orochimaru in each of his host bodies as separate characters, chronicling his actions distinctively from each.--Elveonora (talk) 22:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Until the raw elucidates this matter more, no merger or split should take place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

What is even more illogical is trying to stuff the exploits of giant tree, giant tree monster, and three-eyed pyschowoman into one article. Based as of now on flimsy translations. (Because I state for the third time today, only one translation I have read said that the Ten-Tails was "all her" as you seem to believe. The other stated that the Ten-Tails was "part her".) Add to that, as per the bullcrap that is the Zetsu articles, they have done enough to not be merged together. Merging this with Kaguya is unnecessary and stupid. Splitting it into three articles is even more so. What we have now works. Doesn't beat the readers over the head with convoluted nonsense, and is much much easier to manage for the editors.
That said, Omnibender is right. Until the raws come out, this conversation is over.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:07, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
And I patiently am waiting for the raws. I'm just arguing in advance. Convoluted to readers should be of no concern to us, rather what is true. If Kishi tells us that she is X and Y and so, we just have to document it--Elveonora (talk) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

OMG, just one post and suddenly everyone in this wiki flips out.superlogan7437 (talk) 02:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

So now that the viz is out, may we finally split the "ten-tails" parts from the Shinju article and merge them with Kaguya's? Also at this point there's really no reason to have ten-tails and gedo mazo separated. "gedo mazo" is simply a nickname made by Madara given to the crippled form of beast Kaguya.--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu, both whom pre-date Madara, also called it the Mazo. Also against the merge. To save headaches, that is all I will say, my reasons are above. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 21:57, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
edit conflict And yet Black Zetsu, who predates Madara, also calls it by that name. You still don't get why merging them is like merging all the tailed beasts, so I've given up trying to explain it, and will give you a flat no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:58, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

So what about splitting the Ten-Tails from the Shinju, since they are no longer just different forms of the same thing? At the very least we should call characters jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, rather than Shinju, since the Shinju itself isn't a tailed beast.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:05, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Tailed Beasts each have a separate consciousness. They are parts of chakra given form and life and as such, they are individual characters. Their consciousness isn't that of the Ten-Tails' meaning the Tailed Beasts aren't the Ten-Tails, only their chakra is that of the Ten-Tails. I also told you that you are wrong and the Tailed Beasts are no more Ten-Tails than Naruto is Ashura.... To continue.. from what we've been told by the manga, according to Kurama, the Ten-Tails has no consciousness, something proven wrong a few times. Kurama obviously meant the Shinju as having no consciousness, since the last time I checked, trees don't have any. The any and only consciousness the Ten-Tails has shown has been Kaguya's, so even though the Ten-Tails is both the Shinju and Kaguya in body, it's only Kaguya in mind, therefore the Ten-Tails and Kaguya are single character--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

No offense to anyone in particular, but I'm of the view that people should leave out their reader's/fan's bias out of the wiki while doing their editor's duties. Some may not like the way the plot has turned out, but a refusal to document recent developments just because of distaste for them greatly lowers the individuals' credibility and doesn't help the wiki either. Someone may not like something being true, but pretending contrary just for the sake of one's own convenience won't change the fact that it is and equals ignorance and even self-deception/delusion. An object's existence is independent of a subject's awareness and perception of it. That means, if you can't stand the way things are, feel free to read a different fiction and go edit elsewhere. And yes, I'm just making myself the wise one again :P Ignore that, but the message I tried to convey is important. Don't allow subjective feelings influence your productivity--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

I still stay no to everything Elvenora is trying to propose, on the grounds of hell no.
On actual grounds with merit; no to the Demonic Statue because godsdamnit we've been over that shit.
No on the splitting of Ten-Tails and Shinju, on the grounds that an actual article of just the tree is meaningless if the Ten-Tails is simple "Shinju+Kaguya". We gain nothing adding a new article for the tree, especially since it would essentially just be "This is a tree." Not to mention the fact that left to it's own devices, the Ten-Tails progressed to and (kinda) back from the tree.
No to merging Kaguya and Shinju, on similar grounds as to why we've already not merged the Demonic Statue with the Shinju. The two, while mentally "the same" are still different. Kaguya being a horned woman with serious issues, and the Ten-Tails being a giant monster. Their characters (and I don't care to listen to your crap about them being a single character. Nobody but you are opening the manga and going "These are the exact same character") are uniquely different from one and other and thus, for clarity for our readers, they remain separated. And to save you the trouble, the reason why I say this for Kaguya and the Shinju and not the Shinju and the Ten-Tails is because, the Shinju is a giant tree that is literally just there until parts of Kaguya let it walk. At the end of the day, it is still a giant tree.
Now I expect this to get a lot stupider before it gets better, I have taken the liberties to protect the Shinju and its Infobox, to prevent any edit war that could spark.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:09, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to get one thing out of the way, and its something I'm guilty of as well, but I'm flat tired of seeing it. Just because another person's view/opinion isn't yours, Elveonora, does not make it fanon, fanfiction, or their personal bias anymore than your own view is. You throw that around constantly, I suppose thinking that it makes your points more valid, but it doesn't. Believe it or not, you are not the only user around here who cares about how we present our information, as TheUltimate just clearly demonstrated with several of his reasoning. You will not continue to use that argument (that opposing viewpoints are fanfiction). Its debunked and over. Of course, I am also done doing the same, as it doesn't help the conversation in any way and, in fact, turns it into a dung-flinging contest. From now on stick to arguing your points. That said, like I said earlier, I have already expressed my views and TheUltimate and Omnibender have only reaffirmed my convictions. I am still against any merge or split. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 00:18, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone...haven't been here, trading slaps with you guys for awhile...this seems like an interesting discussion topic, on both a micro and macro point. So i'll toss my 2 cents for what they may still be worth at this point.

So for 1st point...no to merging Kaguya to the Shinju...information on that is too ambiguous ATM. Although for the early-mid future, with more info on the subject it would be a wise idea to perhaps open a debate forum (or re-open, i haven't been here in awhile, soo bear with my jet-lag), and go balls deep into this Gedo Mazo/Shinju/Kaguya connection, because regardless of ambiguity and different thoughts, the way they overlap is getting beyond silly. Second, if i may be so forward all of us (myself included) are not 100% imparcial as writers/editors (we aren't suppose to, we're a bunch of fans, writing on a fan encyclopedia, xD)...and that's reflected on the way we handled certain article pages (unoffical jutsu names, descriptions, etc). How many articles did we have to almost rework/clean up due to how our original idea of a piece of information turned up wrong? Third, to note it's not entirely our fault since Kishi's story is growing plot-holes and retcons left and right and we editors, as a result, are left as puppets at the whims of Kishi's chakra strings. Lastly, despite this i do believe that we'll have to clean up the Gedo/Shinju/Kaguya articles to a degree. So yeah, those are my 2 cents for what they are worth. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:33, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Dear God no. We never merged the statue with the Shinju. I don't see why we would Kaguya.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 06:16, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

But aren't we simply supposed to document what we are being told? Half the latest chapter was pretty much "Kaguya is the Ten-Tails" and the other about Madara's past. From what I can gather, the reasons against split/merger are simply bias and laziness. Pretty much: "I don't like it, it confuses me to shit and it's also lots of work, so just pretend it's not true and do nothing" Also Ultimate3, I proposed split of Shinju and Ten-Tails + merger of Ten-Tails and Kaguya, not merger of Shinju and Kaguya, unless I misunderstood you. Because even tho you may not like it, the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya the whole time. The Ten-Tails is monster form of Kaguya, it's completely mental to have two articles for the same character's different forms. @Foxie, point taken, but the very reason for which I throw accusations around is because I do care and if I didn't, I wouldn't waste my time here arguing with people, even though I must admit that sometimes it amuses me doing so. @Cerez, I don't remember any merger of the Gedo Mazo and Shinju proposed, but Gedo Mazo with Ten-Tails and Kaguya.

Anyway, we all intend the best for this place deep down somewhere, it's just we disagree on "small" details, such as what the "best" is. But you know my opinion, in my ideal world; the Demonic Statue, Ten-Tails and Kaguya would be merged and the Shinju separate, because yes, it was just a magical tree of which power incarnated into a (power) hungry woman as she ate its fruit. That's pretty much all. It isn't even clear at this point if the tree originally had any eye and might not be true.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Check chapter 670, Hagoromo showed Naruto the original form of the Shinju along with the fruit before Kaguya ate it. It was a normal big tree with a fruit. The eye probably came from Kaguya's will. Also did she put her will in the tree or herself??? A tree then a monster with an eye then a tree with an eye.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 09:40, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
The way I get it is that after Kaguya ate the Shinju's fruit, it incarnated into her, meaning they became one--Elveonora (talk) 11:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

That's enough. Debate's over and the Admins have spoken. We leave it the way it is. superlogan7437 (talk) 04:43, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Says who? Also: "The sysop flag is not a status symbol. Sysop are simply other members of the community with some extra tools on the wiki"--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
I say so, simply because we don't know what happened to the tree after Kaguya ate its fruit. We only know that sometime after Hagoromo and Indra were born, Kaguya and the tree manifested as the Ten-Tails. But all three characters deserve each their own article, since they were known as three different characters for most of the time and have stuff attributed to each of them. Merging any of them would make things unnecessarily complicated. • Seelentau 愛 12:37, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
I never proposed deletion of the other articles, only Kaguya's actions and powers as the Ten-Tails being written in her article rather than in the Shinju's.--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
The actions of the Shinju (whatever they were) should stay in its article. Then, the actions of Kaguya should stay in here article and everything she and the Shinju did in form of the Ten-Tails should be written down in the TT' article. • Seelentau 愛 12:50, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
... the reasons why I brought up this topic and consider Foxie, Ulti and so's logic to be retarded are:
  1. problem number one: Shinju and Ten-Tails have one article, so it credits Kaguya's doings and powers to the tree
  2. problem number two: if we find out that she can transform at will back and forth from "human" to monster, dear sysops will document her farts as a monster in the Shinju's article, while her farts as a "human" in her article, this fucking makes so much sense, bravo guys--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Watch the language.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:03, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Moving on, if she does have the ability to transform to the Ten-Tails and back, we'd document it in both articles, like we do whenever any of the jinchuriki transforms. Not hard.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:06, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
She isn't a jinchuuriki though--Elveonora (talk) 13:08, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
And that doesn't matter. If she's going from human-thing to tailed beast, then it follows the same thing the jinchuriki went through, and we documented just fine. It'll if one desires to make it so.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:11, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Then why don't we document Orochimaru as a snake monster separately? Seriously, poor excuse, but I'm appreciating the effort--Elveonora (talk) 13:13, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Orochisnakemonsterbodyhorrormaru was never presented as a different character. Just the end result of half his life of experiments gone horribly wrong. The Ten-Tails was shown as a different character than Kaguya. You're welcome to keep trying but you already know how this is going to end.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:17, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
And that's why I feel bad for this place and you guys. But your decision. If you want things herpy derpy, I won't get in the way--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Also @Seel, the Shinju isn't even a character, but more like a tool--Elveonora (talk) 13:31, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Please do not feed the troll. superlogan7437 (talk) 00:25, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me?--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

"Shinju's" singular eye? Or Ten-Tails'?Edit

Considering this discussion, beginning from my comment, we know that the Shinju tree is what Hagoromo showed Naruto in chapter 670. It didn't have a singular Rinnegan, the Ten-Tails did. Therefore, I say that all articles that have the phrases "Shinju's eye/Rinnegan" or "Shinju's singular eye/Rinnegan" should be replaced with "Ten-Tails' eye/Rinnegan" and "Ten-Tails' singular eye/Rinnegan." (You know, like what you guys did replacing "Return of Madara Arc" with "Infinite Tsukuyomi Arc" or replacing "Nine-Tails" with "Kurama" in various articles). The Shinju didn't have an eye until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Saying the Shinju has a Rinnegan is inaccurate, I mean, LOOK at the Infobox for the Shinju's original tree form. No eye. Ten-Tails has the Rinnegan, Shinju doesn't. And by the way, don't come at me with "What about the tree during the war? It had a Rinnegan." Whatever that thing was that Obito summoned, it co-existed with the real Ten-Tails that Madara revived and sealed within himself. I'll reiterate my stance: The Shinju didn't have (or at least, wasn't shown with) the Rinnegan until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Anyone (Namely @Ten Tailed Fox, @Elveonora, @TheUltimate3 -- for they were in that discussion and agreed with me on the Shinju image -- and other sysops and rollbacks, etc.) disagree? WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

I don't on the sole fact that the Shinju did get the eye eventually. The version that Obito summoned had the eye, after all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 03:41, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

True, and saying the Ten-Tails has the eye rather than the Shinju is not only more accurate, but more consistent, given that we know the Shinju's original form eventually gained the Rinnegan by fusing with Kaguya and becoming the Ten-Tails. The original Shinju in the infobox didn't have the Rinnegan, but the Ten-Tails always did, so Ten-Tails is the better option. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

No objections on my side--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Cool. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Slideshow Edit

Question, why are we using an in-game render for the Juubi's second form in the slideshow instead of using a picture of it from the anime? The in-game render looks kinda poor imo and seems relatively small. Is there a reason this was done? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Because one was available. We only use manga images if anime or game renders are not currently available. When the anime depicts the Shinju's second form, it will likely be used. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 17:17, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
I thought it already did?--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

It did two episodes ago, which is why I don't understand why it isn't in the slideshow. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:23, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

I also wondered this. I have a superb image of the Jubi's second form in the anime if we'd rather use that? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 17:26, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should, it would make more sense and look much better. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:28, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Likely because the article has full protection on it, so nobody could add it ? That, or someone didn't add it because the game render was alright. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 17:52, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
Really funny, I uploaded the same image last month. It was added to the article back then (don't know why it was removed again) and can also be found on these two pages. Hence, the new one is a duplicate and needs to be removed. Norleon (talk) 18:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
Bump. Norleon (talk) 18:10, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Are we going to raise that 'thing' from this weeks chapter? Edit

The mess of the ten tails chakra that spewed out of Kaguya?

<Nope~TheUltimate3>

I'm not certain it's an official form for the Shinju itself but it's definitely it's chakra and possesses the eye of the shinju. I think it should be noted somewhere in the Shinju section.Hadrimon (talk) 12:09, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Done but looks terrible.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:17, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Fourth FormEdit

I've noticed on the moment Kaguya changed into the unstabled chakra form of the Ten-Tails, take a look at the obvious features of the form, with the (facial) features of Tailed Beasts such as Saiken, Gyuki, Kurama, to which is a reminiscent to that of a Chimera --Pat141elite (talk) 12:12, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Could be.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:13, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Chakra fruit Edit

I'm curious, since I don't know much about fruits: What fruit (or so) does the chakra fruit resemble? I'd say it's a fig, hm? • Seelentau 愛 11:12, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it does look a bit like a fig.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 11:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
Does that have any mythological relevance?--Elveonora (talk) 12:29, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
Figs show up in a few places, all of which could have comparisons drawn to the Shinju and Kaguya depending on interpretations. In Greek Mythology a fig tree sat over a monster that was basically a giant whirlpool, and looked out over another monster who was a beautiful sea nymph transformed into a monster by poison. Odysseus survived the whirlpool by clinging to the fig tree's branches. Figs are also present in the mythical origins of some constellations.
In the Bible there are a few different stories about fig trees, most very similar in content. One has Jesus curse a fig tree to whither and die because it didn't have any fruit (over simplification but honestly, the full version doesn't make much sense to me). The story is supposedly a representation of a few things, including Jesus' power over nature. Figs have also been used to represent God's tree of knowledge. The final story basically uses the tree's budding leaves as a metaphor for the coming of "The Kingdom of God", which some believe refers to the apocalypse.
In Buddhism there's a legend that Buddah gained enlightenment while meditating under a sacred fig.
So as you can see, there are some parallels with what we're seeing in Naruto at the moment, but nothing concrete. I'd say the Greek legends are entirely irrelevant and the Biblical ones are pretty unlikely to be involved with Kishimoto's inspiration for the Shinju and its fruit.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:20, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

...I actually meant the looks of the fruit, not some kind of background. Needed it for a description in the German wiki, nothing special... :D • Seelentau 愛 13:30, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's still good to know some mythology :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

so now that it's known Edit

That Kaguya has Wood Release, is the whole "Obito channeled Wood Release" thing still valid?--Elveonora (talk) 09:09, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, because the TT wasn't Kaguya at that point, but a mindless beast. • Seelentau 愛 09:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Where did you get she was mindless?--Elveonora (talk) 09:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't think she was mindless. I'm pretty sure it was her that reacted to Hagoromo's likeness in Naruto when she (as the TT) sensed the tailed beasts within Naruto. Plus she is the will and mind of the TT. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 09:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
From the behaviour of the TT. Even if she's its will, she doesn't necessarily have control over the TT. • Seelentau 愛 09:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Think of it this way. If she was in 100% control of the Ten-Tails at that time, why did she bother wasting her time trying to nuke Naruto when she could have just looked up, cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi herself and claimed victory?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:38, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

The Ten-Tails reacted to chakras of the Tailed Beasts and Rinnegan visage inside of Naruto and made a hand seal (hand seals are human invention I think, not of mindless beasts) Not to mention I'm more than positive it was Kaguya talking to Madara to absorb the tree, thus yes, the Ten-Tails is clearly conscious and of Kaguya's consciousness. And no idea about IF, but you could apply that reasoning pretty much to anything. "why didn't x villain kill y hero when he clearly had a chance?"--Elveonora (talk) 09:43, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Note; I never said the Ten-Tails was a mindless beast. I said Kaguya was not in 100% control. The Ten-Tails trying to nuke Naruto was very much conscious. I don't think the Ten-Tails was like "Yo, my plans about to come true. Weeeee".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Hand seals are a human invention. Who controlled the TT at that time? Madara and Obito. Also, Kaguya was born before hand seals were invented. Why would she use them? • Seelentau 愛 09:50, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Except Madara attributed the hand seal to the Ten-Tails focusing it chakra as a reaction for observing Naruto's chakras. And we don't know when hand seals were invented, they are used to mold and manipulate chakra and Kaguya has chakra, so logically she would use some?--Elveonora (talk) 09:56, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
He did? Hm.
Yes, and they were invented by the humans who got Hagoromo's chakra. Kaguya didn't need to create chakra, she got it from the fruit. • Seelentau 愛 10:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

0_o new chakra continuously has to be produced my merging physical and mental energies, hand seals help with that. They are also used to transform chakra while performing techniques--Elveonora (talk) 10:15, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

As I said, the humans were the first ones to merge those energies. I don't think Hagoromo or Kaguya ever used seals. • Seelentau 愛 10:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Weren't we shown Kaguya running out of chakra, having Black Zetsu mold more for her? So yes, even she has to merge physical and mental energies to produce more chakra, it's not like she has infinite after all--Elveonora (talk) 10:25, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
When? • Seelentau 愛 10:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
Chapter 687, unless I misunderstood it--Elveonora (talk) 10:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

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