Talk: Susanoo

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Is the Susanoo clad Kurama anime picture worth adding in Madara's abilities?

Can someone add the picture of anime Susanoo-clad Kurama to Madara's abilities? If possible?--JustaNobody (talk) 06:03, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

That's not a different development stage of Susanoo, that's why the image was removed in the first place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:18, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ay yo Omni, can't we just have a "Shape Transformation" section like we have for weaponry and the rest? For Sasuke and Madara? WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it should be documented in some form. I don't see why its such a bad thing to just add it to the pre-existing image galleries. Kishi made a point of making Sasuke note that he'd copied Madara when he did the same thing to Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode, so obviously it wasn't just some random event. May not be a developmental stage, but it is still something unique that only Madara and Sasuke can do. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:11, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't oppose them being shown in galleries on principle, I just recall there being discussions that lead to their removal before, I'm neutral on this. I just think that if the previous decision is being overturned, people should be a part of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:16, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed on that count. I will wait for more opinions while trying to come up with a possible secondary solution should adding it to the pre-existing galleries not please others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:30, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while now. Shouldn't we have a "Shape Transformation" section for Susanoo? Yes, it is not a developmental stage, and doesn't deserve to be in the characters/users' galleries, but they should still be documented in some way. We have a section for Weaponry, why not Shape Transformation? The Weaponry section isn't a developmental stage like Shape Transformation, but I agree with Foxie, it should be documented. It is the only unique ability of Susanoo that has just been left out. And since Omni is neutral on this and Foxie has already given his opinion, what do other sysops and rollbacks think? This issue should be addressed, if it hasn't been already. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Just add it pals, saves all the wrinkles. Imo stabilized Susanoo is but a shape transformation version of unstabilized, yet we document that--Elveonora (talk) 11:05, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

^^^^Been waiting for a response forever now... but we don't have the images to do so. I already have a summary for it and everything, I just need images. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 18:25, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

terminology

This is something that is in serious need to be addressed. Was the term "perfect susanoo" ever used in manga? Same for "final susanoo" ? Because we either label the very final form as "perfect" for the sake of consistency (because some not-to-be-named persons around like to throw that term around a lot) or we delete all mentions of perfect.--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

All we know about Susanoo terminology is what Madara said. Basically, there are two different stages of Susanoo aside from the "complete" one: the "final" and the "stabilised" version. I dunno why someone keeps calling the stabilised final form "perfect". Maybe because the scans said it was "Perfect Susanoo", who knows?-- JOA20 20:57, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Pretty sure Madara did indeed call his Susanoo "perfect" but it's unclear whether he was referring only to the fourth (stabilised) form or his Susanoo as a whole, since he called it that when it entered its third form. As for "final", it is a completely made-up term for the wiki, and we now know that it is in fact not the final form. The only remotely canon names of Susanoo's forms are "stabilised" and "complete" (the latter only comes from chapter 478's original title, I believe).--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

That is false. I actually have Madara's exact quote from that scene: "I see… This is truly worthy of shinobi who bear the name Kage. Then I, Madara Uchiha, shall respond with full power! The five Kage are nothing compared to me! This is… my perfect Susanoo!" The form that appears is the unstabalized version, meaning that the "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabliized and stabilized. Edit: The Japanese word he used was kansei 完成 which can mean both "complete" and "perfect". It is also a word used to denote perfection. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:20, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

If this is the case, why don't we call the forms "perfect" or "complete", rather than the unofficial "final"? This would mean that the (significantly smaller) armored forms used by Itachi and Sasuke are also unstabilised perfect/complete Susanoo, would it not?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:59, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, Ten-Tailed Fox, the next chapter goes to clarify the armoed form her shown in 588 wasn't his Perfect Susano'o. Madara had to make it change shape and then called it 'Perfect'.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:05, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It talks about his stabilized Susanoo being "destruction incarnate". @Red: The smaller forms don't have names. Only the large unstabilized and stabilized forms have names. And yes, we should change them. This "wiki terminology" needed to go long ago. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:12, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

If the normal armored form was his Perfect Susano'o, why even bother stabilizing it?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:21, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Look, you can argue it all you want, that's what the manga says, so that's what it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:23, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

And the manga says, when Mei asked if that form was Perfect Susano'o? Madara explicitly said 'Not quite yet', then thought 'Settle' and then its massive form was shown.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:26, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

That's why I'm saying "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabilized and stabilized. Madara explicitly calls the unstabilized form his "perfect" Susanoo, then states the quote that you just referenced. Conclusion? They both are. The only difference is one's chakra is wild and the other's is "settle[d] down". ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:30, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Or the unstabilized form was just shown so Madara could show off his true Perfect Susano'o after. Some of the termininology call it 'True Susano'o' too.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:31, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

No they don't. The Japanese word used is kansei, as I stated above, which means "complete" or "perfect", leaning towards perfect, since it also means "perfection". "True" is a scanlation error. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:33, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

The Viz manga as well as the official subtitles of the depicted anime episode called it "Perfect" and when stabilized he said "Settle down!!" and unstabilized type is called "True" according to Mei's statement. —Shakhmoot _(Talk) 02:35, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Thanks Shakhmoot. True Susanoo is the name given for the unstabilized Armored version, Perfect is for the Stabilized Chakra version.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:41, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

No it is not. He says "This is my perfect Susanoo" (kanseihin Susanoo; literally meaning "perfected Susanoo"). That's what it says when he summons the "unstabilized" version. You both can't argue with the original Japanese. That's what it says. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:02, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Then what was the Japanese for what Mei said? She calls it True Susano'o and Madara makes the effort to have his Susano'o stabilize to an entire different version. You're extrapolating that both are Perfect Susano'o.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:03, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you know what the word "extrapolating" means. Secondly, Mei uses the word honto 本当 which means "true" or "reality", but we don't care what she says. Madara calls it kansei 完成, or, more literally, kanseihin Susanoo 完成品須佐能乎, which means "perfected Susanoo". Madara's term is more important because it is his Susanoo. Mei's term is referring to reality. Basically she's saying his Susanoo is the true form of Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:08, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Butting in: He actually calls it Kanzentai Susanoo, meaning Complete Body Susanoo. I actually don't even know when he used your terms, Fox. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:17, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

HA! So what do we do now?--Elveonora (talk) 14:17, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Really now? That's interesting. Well, if he calls it "complete body Susanoo", then we should go for maybe "complete" or, hell, I'm fine with "complete body" too. The only reason I'm arguing this is because I reject the previous logic of just using made-up wiki terms to describe Susanoo's development because they're more convenient. If that's what Madara called the form, then that's what we need to call it too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:00, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Seelantau, why do most translations go Perfec Susano'o again, including the official one?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:09, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

完全 kanzen can either mean perfect or complete. 体 tai means body. So it's a complete/perfect body Susanoo. However, Kanzentai Susanoo is most likely not a term like Mangekyo Sharingan, but rather a description. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:45, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

The wiki currently refers to the second stage of Susanoo's development as "complete" based off of chapter 478's original title calling it "kanzentai" as well, so if the stabilised (and Madara's unstabilised) forms are to be considered kanzentai Susanoo, the names of the other stages would need to be changed as well. Is there anything else in the series that could be used as names for the skeletal, "complete", and armoured forms? Or would we just have to refer to them in those sorts of descriptive terms?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:35, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

Since the title was changed, I assume that Kishimoto changed his mind about what a Kanzentai Susanoo is. If it's not the one seen in that chapter, it's obviously the one seen the other time this term was used: Madara's complete, stabilized Susanoo. Going from this, a Kanzentai Susanoo is a Susanoo with a full body, a full armout and its chakra stabilized. Sasuke achieved this in the fourth war. For everything else, no term was given, if I recall correctly. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:58, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

The title was changed? That's enough of a confirmation that Knzentai Susanoo is an official term to me. What about these suggestions:

• We change what we currently label as Complete into Incomplete
• Final will be changed just to "Susanoo" we may optionally use Complete just to point out it's... complete
• The last forms will be called perfect unstabillized and perfect stabilized

Any objections?--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ya. It's not perfect if the chakra ain't stabilized. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:43, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Only the stabilized one was labeled perfect? In that case Full-Body Complete Susanoo will be the second to last.--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Well, there is no official list of steps. I think we should go by skeleton-warrior-armoured warrior. Everything else are sub-steps or so. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:50, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's best to keep it simple:

• Incomplete Susanoo ribcage
• Incomplete Susanoo skeleton
• Incomplete Susanoo with flesh
• Full-Body Incomplete Susanoo
• Complete Susanoo/Complete Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)
• Perfect Susanoo/Perfect Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)

The in-between states don't need a picture and the four-armed versions are just variants that can be mentioned in the article, don't need a picture either.--Elveonora (talk) 13:02, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

You say simpler, but you make it more complicated. There are no six steps necessary. We have a Susanoo made of bones, one made of the simple soldier and one made of the soldier with his armour. Also, there's no difference between complete and perfect Susanoo. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:05, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

I know officially there isn't, I used complete for what we currently label as final (armored soldier)--Elveonora (talk) 13:07, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Hm, dunno, haven't checked the article. To be clear, I think the best way of differenting would be this:

Skeleton Susanoo

Everything from the ribcage to the arms to the complete upper body

Warrior Susanoo

Everything from the warrior's ribcage to his arms to his complete body

Armoured Warrior Susanoo

Everything from the armoured warrior's ribcage to his arms to his complete body. However, only the complete body with its chakra stabilized is the Kanzentai Susanoo.

Was that clear enough? ^^ • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:19, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Sounds kinda fanon though :P I like my version better. We should keep it similar to the way it is now, as not to confuse the fanbase with completely new terms. Everything pre-armored warrior I'd label as Incomplete--Elveonora (talk) 13:41, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, since there is no official differentiation, every list is fanon. Mine is just the shortest and most uncomplicated one. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:45, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, would anybody be opposed to not providing images of the ribcage at all? Besides color, there's nothing to differentiate the partial uses of the ribcage besides how MUCH of it they wish to materialize. Can we just leave it at the complete skeletal forms 'n up? —「SaiST」 14:15, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Truth be told, I wouldn't be against the idea to limit the images to maybe the most up to date (or the most iconic) version of their Susanoo. Most iconic because, yeah that's the one people see more often than not, but I could go with most recent as well because yeah, most recent means "most done" so to speak. Then you can toss at least one image of say the ribs somewhere and Susanoo on Kurama another.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 14:20, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Really? I think there should be a separate section for Susanoo-Equipped Kurama. It is not a new developmental stage, but don't get me wrong, it should be documented somewhere, just in a separate section. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 00:35, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

For terminology, I think it should go like this:

Ribcage Susanoo

Skeletal Susanoo

Complete Legless Susanoo (Mangekyo Sharingan version)

Complete Legged Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Version)

Armored Susanoo (Mangekyo Sharingan Version)

Perfect Susanoo Unstabilized (Eternal Mangekyo Version)

Perfect Susanoo Stabilized (Eternal Mangekyo Version)

How does this sound?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:05, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

As complicated and redundant as Elve's. I mean, how do a ribcage of the skeletal Susanoo and the full skeletal Susanoo differ? Do you want to include a special stage for just one arm, too? The ribcage is a partial manifestation of the skeletal Susanoo, as is the arm. Also, there is no perfect unstabilized Susanoo. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:21, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

'_' What's your opinion on version with lower body, different stage or is legless Susanoo just "partial manifestation" ? Also if you find my last one complicated still, in that case:

• Incomplete Susanoo skeleton
• Incomplete Susanoo with flesh
• Susanoo/Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)
• Perfect Susanoo/ Perfect Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)--Elveonora (talk) 11:29, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

That's like my list, except from that I don't list the Kanzentai Susanoo as a fourth stage. Like this. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:39, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Good. But you omit the armored version as stage, why? There's armorless warrior and armored warrior.--Elveonora (talk) 11:55, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

The armoured warrior is the one Sasuke achieved for a short time when he confronted Kakashi at the bridge about the Uchiha clan. It faded very fast. The normal warrior is the one that he used against Danzō. When I say "armoured Susanoo", I mean the one with a shugenja armour.

However, after checking the article, I think it's probably not possible to make a clear list of stages. I mean, look at Sasuke's many Susanoo forms... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Hence why I said earlier it would be easier if we just make note of either their most iconic forms or their most recent. It looks as if Susanoo's forms are at a whim of their creator so having multiple notations for ribcages, incomplete, ect doesn't seem all that necessary.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:03, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, why not? Sasuke's forms do not differ any from progression of the other users. In my opinion each "layer" should be considered a form. So the latest proposition works imo:

• full skeleton
• + layer of flesh = full body
• + layer of armor = armored
• + stabilization = perfect

--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Works for me. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:20, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, it's easy to change the terms in Susanoo article, but bot work may be needed to change that in all, because doing that one by one in 20 or more articles is more work than it's worth. But I'm not even sure if a bot can do that--Elveonora (talk) 12:22, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Bump. Now worth doing because it's too much effort for little reward or are we waiting for more opinions?--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

I'll help begin the edits!--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:25, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

While on this subject, is it really neccessary to call Madara's later forms "Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Version" when they're the only forms we've seen? We don't know if Madara's Susanoo changed like Sasuke's did, and none of Madara's forms exactly match up with Sasuke's armoured form anyway.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:54, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's

"complete Susanoo with a changed head" what's that? Shouldn't it rather say something like "complete susanoo eternal mengekyou sharingan version" ?--Elveonora (talk) 20:49, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, it should be "Rinnegan version," cause when Sasuke had the EMS, his Susanoo, both complete and stabilized (at least in chapter 650), it bore a grin, or at least had visible human-like teeth. After gaining Hagoromo's chakra and the Rinnegan, both stage of Susanoo gained holes in the mouth area rather than the teeth, like Indra's. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 21:03, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that picture just Sasuke's Susanoo in mid transition from its complete to stabilised forms?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, and if you look at the full body version right next to it, you can see the facial changes there too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:32, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

It has the old smile in the chapter just before that one though (647). If anything, it seems like it can just change its mouth at (Sasuke's) will, unless it's a minor inconsistency. Hopefully we'll see that form one more time before the manga ends.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:56, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Need a picture of Madara's Susano'o with Kurama being equipped by it.

For the Shape Transformation part of the article. No one has uploaded a new picture that can be used, even after the latest episode.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 00:48, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi's Susanoo

I think we should leave a note that the Susanoo ability comes from the eyes, and considering the way Obito was talking, it's likely Obito could have used Susanoo as well, hence I think we should call it 'Kakashi/Obito's Susanoo'

Hadrimon (talk) 11:14, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but i don't think they would let me edit it that way. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 11:42, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

I thought so, too. But seeing the scar, I doubt that it's Obito's Susanoo. Maybe he could use one, too, but not the one we see in that chapter. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:46, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes its about the user, rather than the eyes themselves. Perhaps, in the same way Madara could draw more power from his eyes, Kakashi is just 'better' with Obito's eyes? --Atrix471 (talk) 11:49, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

As we've seen though, Sasuke gained Itachi's powers from his eyes. It just seems suggestable from the dailogue that Obito knew this would be the result of giving him the eyes. If not, I think we could make a note Obito was 'capable' of the Susanoo, but wasn't shown on screen, like how we have a note on Ginkaku's page about his tailed beast mode. Hadrimon (talk) 12:03, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but Obito's Susanoo would've looked different. I agree that he could've used it, but not with the same looks. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:05, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

It were Obito's eyes so i think the Susanoo would look the same. And we don't know if the marking is a scar or not, we didn't see the Susanoo barely. Because Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, and the Susanoo is awakened through the eyes, but after that you don't need eyes to activated it, like Madara did. Another theory is that Obito somehow merged or gave his DNA/abilities to Kakashi, which makes it even more plausible that it was Obito's Susanoo but now that he's dead and gave his eyes to Kakashi it's his. Similiar to Itachi's eyes being transplanted. Since the original user is dead, the power now belongs to the person who wields it. But it should be added that it WAS Obito's Susanoo and IS now Kakashi's. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 13:20, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

You can see that it's a scar... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:29, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

We've only seen one half of the face so we'll see. And it's still debatable if it's Obito's Susanoo or Kakashi's, because Obito transferred his essence into Kakashi. If Obito leaves and Kakashi loses Susanoo and the MS eyes than we have 100% confirmation that it was Obito's power and a temporarily powerup. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 14:32, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

We've seen the part of the face with the scar... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:33, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Kishi went out of his way to ensure it looked like Kakashi's Susanoo, since it has a forehead protector too. Honestly I'm surprised it doesn't have a face mask... --Atrix471 (talk) 14:38, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Seelentau, can you read? We only saw the side of the face which has the marking, if the other side has a marking aswell, it's not a scar. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 15:25, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo is the manifestation of the user's chakra. Is Obito using Susanoo? No. Kakashi is. Its his chakra that is manifesting therefore it is his own Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:20, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as Ghost Obito entered Kakashi's body, it was likely his chakra that activated the Sharingan with Kakashi's own eyes, so logic would dictate that Obito, who by all accounts seemed to know what the result would be, would have had access to Susanoo when he had both his eyes. Given how he hasn't returned to Rin yet (afaik) and claimed the Susanoo would expire, this warrants at least a "Presumed" tag and that the Susanoo be referred to Obito's if not both Kakashi and Obito's.--Reliops (talk) 00:24, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Only that's not going to happen because Obito never used Susanoo and he said that it might expire, but that he didn't know. Not enough for me to say it will ever expire. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:25, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

This. I do not know why people think this is Obito's Susanoo. Doesn't Sasuke have Itachi's eyes, like how Kakashi has Obito's, but it is Sasuke's Susanoo? I'm well aware Sasuke used Susanoo before getting Itachi's eyes, but like Foxie said, Susanoo is the manifestation of the user's chakra. Obito isn't using Susanoo, maybe he could, but he hasn't and probably won't, so it is Kakashi's and only Kakashi's Susanoo. I do not know why this is a debate or a question who's Susanoo it is. Has anyone ever heard of a person transferring their Susanoo to another user? C'mon now. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 01:26, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Then you're being needlessly difficult over a technicality that you want spoon fed to you as though you can't read between the lines. A lot of people assumed Minato was a jinchūriki when he died. When Minato came back as an Edo and it turned out he was. Now, I'm not saying we should have attributed jinchūriki status to Minato way back when, but there is something to be learned from it. Kishimoto doesn't do full truths and answers. Now here's the situation. The Sharingan is awakened by UCHIHA chakra. Obito is an Uchiha. Obito returned to the material world. Obito entered Kakashi's body similar to when Dan entered Tsunade's consciousness and gave her chakra to survive. Logic (and facts according to Tobirama) would dictate that Kakashi wouldn't have awakened the Sharingan without Obito's chakra. Are you still with me? OK. Now that same logic would dictate that Obito, who by all indications seemed to KNOW what he did, was in possession of Susanoo at the time of his death. Now I've been hanging around this wikipedia for years and I have seen all kinds of inconsistencies and outright blatant mistakes, but if there's one thing this wiki seems to excel at, it's learning from mistakes. Not attributing Obito with Susanoo and acknowledging the Susanoo Kakashi manifested was more than probably his, would be a mistake. Kishimoto (and all manga-ka) conveys what he can with the limited number of pages and spaces he has, so yeah, he'll rely on us connecting the dots by following the logic of his manga. Logic dictates Obito had Susanoo at the time of his death. And I remind you again that same logic dictated Minato had jinchūriki powers at the time of his death. So how about we stop with the silly games and just get down to brass tacks and make a decision based on that?--Reliops (talk) 01:40, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see if we can reach a consensus here.--Reliops (talk) 15:37, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what consensus you desire, but I'm for referring it as Kakashi's Susanoo, because it is his. What Obito's Susanoo may look like is a fine guessing game, it may look exactly like Kakashi's minus the the obvious scar that's there for obvious reasons, but until Ghost Obito comes up and whips out his own, this one is Kakashi's.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:46, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Did you not read my post above? There is no logical reason to believe this Susanoo is Kakashi's and Kakashi's alone. All evidence points to Obito having Susanoo and that Susanno being just as much his as it is Kakashi's.--Reliops (talk) 16:26, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Given the fact that no one here can explain what exactly happened in that chapter, we can only go by what we see: Kakashi is using the Susanoo. So if we say Kakashi's Susanoo, we're basing this solely on the fact that he was the one to use it. If we get more information on this (ha ha, as if we would), we can change it accordingly. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:50, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

By the time the consensus (sysops, rollbacks) decide and a agree on one topic, TU3 decides. He's an authority here. By the time he and the consensus agree, it's official. That is period and final. Argue all you want, it is Kakashi and only Kakashi's Susanoo. We are done here. Argue all you want. Go ahead, make another big paragraph. It's not gonna change anything. It's Kakashi's not Obito's. Nothing you say will change that. Unless the manga says otherwise, for right now, it's Kakashi's. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 16:56, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I don't you are using the word "consensus" correctly.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 16:57, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Well, thanks. My point was that the majority decides here. Not one person with their opinion. Recently, you've been ending discussions that get out of hand (Though I know others can do the same). So that was all I was saying. I wasn't saying it was all on you though. The majority decides. If they can't, you usually take action, TU3. My bad if I sounded like I was saying "It's up to the TU3 to make a final judgement." End of the day, the consensus decides. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 17:27, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Fun fact: A majority decision is not always correct. ;) • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:32, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I do put a stop to discussions when they are no longer discussions and just become and back and forth dick waving contests. Those never end and consensus can never be reached. Or they were reached but one or so users continue to bring it up as if to change the decision based on how much they can annoy someone.

Also a consensus is not a vote. 5 people can come to a consensus that Naruto's hair is red, but 1 person comes in and proves them wrong and that guy wins, regardless of the consensus made. This issue here is one of them. Regardless of how many people vote on calling it Kakashi or Obito's Susanoo, the fact that Obito has never used it means it is not his.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 17:33, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

The reason I asked to reach for a consensus is because I'm perfectly fine with a decision being made on it. I still think I'm right. We know how the Sharingan works now according to Tobirama. We can glean from the chapter that the Susanoo likely belongs to both Obito and Kakashi and that Obito was capable of using it before his death. If that's not enough to convince the majority, that's fine by me, but I will say this: we assumed Minato wasn't a jinchūriki when we learned he sealed half of the Kyūbi inside him, and we turned out to be wrong. This situation is very similar, only now we probably won't see Obito come back again since he's dead (at least, dead for the last time). That's why I choose to apply to your logic and reasoning. The evidence is there, the history is there, and in case I need to remind you guys, we've allowed greater assumptions than this one to be written down.--Reliops (talk) 18:26, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

K. I've learned some things now, huh? It is what it is. Let's move on from this, shall we? WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 18:35, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I was with you up until this point. "the fact that Obito has never used it means it is not his" - That makes no sense whatsoever. If someone presents something you created or own, that doesn't make it theirs because you've never been seen with that thing. That's essentially the contention at hand.--Reliops (talk) 20:15, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

And 4) If you wanted to bring up Kakashi's Susanoo, you should have done so here instead of making yourself look like an ass.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 16:35, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

At the end of the day, the Susanoo is just a physical materialization of the user's chakra, so it still belongs to Kakashi. Obito's eyes just made it possible. --Atrix471 (talk) 16:38, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo to counter Chakra Absorption Techniques? Since when?

The question the topic asks. Where was this ever stated, shown or even remotely implied in the manga or databooks? The article reads: "With [Susanoo], the tailed beast is now protected from Chakra Absorption Techniques and gains more protection due to Susanoo's defensive properties" Which part of the manga supports this? Moreover, this thing has been discussed BEFORE, and the conclusion was that it is just an alluring speculation, but nonetheless still a pure speculation. NoJutsu (talk) 01:06, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Or common sense, whatever you want to call it. Kotoamatsukami (talk) 01:33, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say it would, considering the Susano'o is a construct of chakra itself. It would absorb the chakra of the Susano'o, but not of Kurama. --ExyleCage (talk) 18:56, August 10, 2014 (UTC)ExyleCage

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi

As pasted by Ulti on another talkpage, databook said this: ""Amaterasu, denoting the "light of the material world" and Tsukuyomi, symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"—— Only they who have activated the Mangekyō Sharingan —the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation— are permitted to use these two dōjutsu. Dwelling only in they who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god… that is Susanoo.""

So are we simply going to pretend it doesn't say that? I don't think we should assume it's been retconned just yet. As crazy as it may sound, I think we should rather assume that Obito could also do Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi besides Kamui.--Elveonora (talk) 18:44, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently. Yes, yes we are. Using the logic I am having a grand time obtaining, the databook states that only Itachi's Susanoo comes from Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, despite lines such as "Dwelling only in they who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god… that is Susanoo.""". Quite fascinating really.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 18:46, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one that understands how a databook works... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:50, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

You are.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 18:52, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I never understood why this was removed in the first place to be honest. Reasons like "the manga clearly outdated the databooks" do not hold true to me as nobody can really say that some people can't use these techniques, just because they were never seen using them. Norleon (talk) 18:53, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, You aren't, we all know retcons happen, no one disagrees with that, but there's no contrary evidence to what it states. Absence of evidence for Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi isn't evidence of absence. It's safer to assume the databook is still correct as of now rather than that it's been retconned.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

How about putting a trivia point about it instead?-- JOA20 18:55, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly I thought today was gonna be a wash, but this got me through the last hour of my work day quite wonderfully. But seriously on topic, we do know that to unlock Susanoo one needs to unlock the power of both their eyes, (Itachi: Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu, Sasuke: Amaterasu/Blaze, Madara: Broken/Bastard, Kakashi: Kamui(Close)/Kamui(Far)) and that the databook, unless I truly don't know how it is used correctly, was in fact just referring to Itachi's own Susanoo and not every Susanoo that exists ever.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 18:57, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Nice sarcasm. It clearly spoke in general, not specifically: "Dwelling only in they who have grasped both of these techniques (Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi) is the power of a tempestuous god… that is Susanoo" It doesn't says: "it dwells only in Itachi"--Elveonora (talk) 19:00, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, let me explain: How can any sort of databook, both in real life and in fiction, take things into account that have not happened yet? Simple answer: It can't. As real life and the manga go on, new things come up and new information retcons old one. This is a completely normal process. Here we have an old statement from a databook, were only one character was in possession of the subject at hand (Susanoo). Since then, multiple new users of said subject came along. You guys want to apply the old statement (from a time were it could be applied to only one character) to the new users as well, despite new information about that subject. That is plain wrong. The databooks are only correct for the chapters they're covering. Every subject after that can only be explained by a databook statement if there was no new information about that subject. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:01, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

So as long as something does not show up or does not get mentioned anymore, we blatantly ignore it to replace it with our own assumptions? That's ridiculous, nothing ever connected a Mangekyou-Sharingan technique to Susanoo after the databook. Or am I mistaken? Where was it said in the manga "you need to master two random MS techniques in order to awaken Susanoo"? Norleon (talk) 19:10, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, nothing ever connected techniques to Susanoo again. Sasuke himself said that you need to master the eyes, not their techniques. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:11, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

They're all too happy to ignore Sasuke's words, though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:13, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's words do not contradict the databook though. He said two eye powers, there's no evidence he was referring to random powers and not Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke said "This is Susanoo. The third power that can be gaines only by those who awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan in both eyes". So what now? Are we going to assume that every double Mangekyō is capable of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, or just leave it at what Sasuke literally said?-- JOA20 19:28, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

They don't contradict it, but they retcon it. It was "Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi" for Itachi, but then Sasuke joined the crew and it was only "two eyes". Saying that he, too, had to master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi ignores that he never, ever used Tsukuyomi, even in instances like the fight with Kabuto, were Itachi used Tsukuyomi and Sasuke the normal Genjutsu. It also ignores that his right eye already has Kagutsuchi as a technique. By the way, as far as I know, we're only calling Itachi's Susanoo a tempestuous god of valor or so, right? If I recall correctly, this was also because we decided that the databook talks about Itachi's Susanoo only. I mean, how can it talk about someone elses, there was no other user. Now there is one and we have a new statement by that exact user. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:30, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention, as of this chapter, we have a user who has the power of Kamui in both eyes (for different effects), rather than Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, using Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:32, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Enough with the mocking attitude. Here's a major counterargument for the "2 random MS techs" thing: Doesn't literary everyone who awakens Mangekyou, like does so in both eyes not just left or right? By that logic, the moment someone gets Mangekyou he has Susanoo and that's nonsense, therefore yes, Susanoo needs Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi specifically, because otherwise every Uchiha who has ever got MS would have it, every damn single one--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

No it isn't. Sasuke makes it clear what is required. Two Mangekyō. That is all. Forgive Seel his mocking attitude, but that's all that really can be used in the face of pure stupidity, like taking a statement about Itachi's Susanoo to mean all five users, four of which don't fit your mold, have two techniques they've never been shown with. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:42, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

The Tsukuyomi-Amaterasu thing is exclusive to Itachi? Oh. So Susanoo requires powers and techniques to be unlocked in both Mangekyo Sharingan. I think we should note that. I also think we should note the powers unlocked in both eyes in each user of Susanoo in their summaries. Like this: "The two powers Itachi unlocked in his eyes to unlock Susanoo were Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu" and this: "The two powers Sasuke unlocked in both eyes for Susanoo were Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi." Or something like that. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 19:46, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

But everyone has two Mangekyou... so everyone has Susanoo according to you.--Elveonora (talk) 19:48, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

There's still a gap between "Needing Ama and Tsuku specifically" and "Needing the two Mangekyo only". What if Itachi needed to master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but Sasuke and the others did not? It would be the logical consequence, hm? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:49, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, well Susanoo is a rarity. Has everyone that has two Mangekyo unlocked a technique in both eyes? Izuna and the Anime-only Mangekyo Sharingan haven't unlocked unique techniques in both eyes. They are the only ones not shown to use Susanoo. Everyone else can. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 20:01, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if I get what you mean Seel, do you suggest that one has to master the techniques in both eyes for Susanoo to come out rather than simply having two mangekyou?--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I was saying. Man, I gotta learn how to communicate better. But yeah, I think a person with two Mangekyo must master unique techniques in both eyes to awaken Susanoo. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 20:10, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

..... so you agree with me? Because two Kamui isn't unique--Elveonora (talk) 20:15, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Kamui is a unique technique. So is Kotoamatsukami. When a unique technique is unlocked in both eyes (that isn't Izanagi or Izanami, both require regular Sharingan), and the user is in possession of both Mangekyo, it allows the user to access Susanoo, based on what we've seen so far. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 20:26, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Elve. Not unique ones, but each eye carries a technique which needs to be mastered. Itachi had Ama and Tsuku, Sasuke Ama and Kagu, Shisui 2x Koto and Kakashi 2x Kamui. This doesn't contradict the databook (because how would the databook know about Sasuke?) and it doesn't contradict Sasuke's statement. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:48, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

OK so can I finally put that information regarding awakening the Susanoo in the article? WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 22:25, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Whatever then... the databook is wrong only when it suits people's propaganda I see. It doesn't matter that Itachi's Susanoo was the only one then, because the databook spoke in general sense. There's no room for different interpretation, it literary says only those (plural) with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi get Susanoo.

For the mastery part, I don't dig that much either, considering Obito mastered Kamui the very moment his eye became Mangekyou with no training needed whatsoever. Also if what you say is true, that would mean Shisui's Susanoo is CANON--Elveonora (talk) 14:12, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Here's my theory. Susanoo doesn't actually need Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. I also think the reason not every Mangekyō-using Uchiha can use this ability despite awakening the form in each eye is because it requires a certain balanced power between the two eyes. Itachi could use Susanoo because Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi are basically exact opposites. Sasuke on the other hand couldn't use Susanoo until both eyes obtained a similar power for Amaterasu; one generating the flames and the other controlling them. Kakashi after getting both versions of Kamui in each eye and Shisui (in the anime) have the same exact power in each eye is what gave both of them access to Susanoo.—Steveo920 (Talk) 10:25, August 8, 2014

Except that doesn't really make much sense and we shouldn't go with theories but facts. And the fact is that databook says Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are needed and nothing contradicts that. Just because Madara and Obito didn't use them doesn't mean they couldn't, since absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

It's funny how everybody willingly ignores the relationship between Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi from the japanese mythology. Could've Kishimoto meant something by connecting these three techniques by giving them names of deities who are on top of all related towards each other?? Oh no, it must be Blaze Release or Limbo: Border Jail that calls out Susanoo! Yeah right...Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:33, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Can someone please tell me where it was specifically said in the manga and/or databooks that Susanoo actually requires both Amaterau and Tsukuyomi?—Steveo920 (Talk) 10:35, August 8, 2014

Susanoo's entry in the third databook. Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:37, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Then why are we having this argument? If that is true, why don't we just add Kakashi, Sasuke, Madara, Indra, and Shisui as users of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi?—Steveo920 (Talk) 10:45, August 8, 2014

That's the whole issue here. Some people think the databook isn't true anymore because Itachi was the only known user back then.Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:47, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

If we add everyone as a user of Ama and Tsuku, I'm going to merge Tobi's and Madara's article. I promise you that. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:56, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

In that case I will have no choice but to consider you insane :P Canon = author's words. It's the facts and the fact is that's what he wrote and assuming that he changed his mind about it is just that, assuming. It's very unlikely he did because of the whole trinity thing--Elveonora (talk) 15:00, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I don't assume anything. I'm saying judging new things by old standards is wrong. Especially when there's as much unexplained crap going on as it is in the current Naruto manga. Why are you all so fixated on adding stuff? Why can't you guys just wait until the manga is over and we (hopefully) get a new databook? And why do I have to say this stuff every week again and again? Wait is the key word here. We have no obligation to provide information. We have the obligation to provide correct information and seeing this discussion, it's obvious that we can't provide the correct information right now, because each side has its pros and cons. Jesus, why am I the only one with that mindset here? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:09, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Because you like to follow your own theories instead of accepting evidence coming from the author himself. But have it your way, I clearly haven't enough fantasy to achieve anything on this wiki, so why bothering anymore? Iloveinoxxx (talk) 15:14, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

There's no reason to assume that the original information provided is no longer correct though. Again, no sign of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi from Madara and Obito (yes, I'm still certain Sasuke used it, but that's its own topic) is not evidence of their absence. Last time I checked you were defending the databook and labeled chapter 599 wrong because it contradicts it. So suddenly the manga is right and not the databook? That nitpicking, especially since nothing contradicts what the databook said when it comes to Susanoo. It was never stated that a Mangekyou Sharingan user can have only 3 eye techniques, no such limit was imposed--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

@Seelentau: Because while I have no idea how calm or hectic things are at the German Wiki, here if we do as you say and waited, we'd have to do a total lockdown of every article to prevent users from coming in and adding the stuff anyway. That may be a fine course of action to you, but it makes the Bleach Wiki (despite being very organized and well done) very shitty of the average editors. Unless of course we don't actually want editors.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:18, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Unless your idea of "Do nothing and wait" implies only a few editors can actually keep the wiki up to date or you have a different idea.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:20, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I understand where the pro-Ama & Tsuku side comes from, believe me. But riddle me this: The databook says that you need to master Ama + Tsuku before obtaining Susanoo. Right? Right. Now, Kakashi never used either of those techniques (yeah yeah, evidence of absence and all), but on top of that, he never even had two Mangekyo, so he never could master both techniques before he got Obito's chakra. And after he got that, he used Susanoo immediately. If we go by the databook, then he learned and mastered Ama & Tsuku in those two or three seconds before casting a full-body Susanoo. How in all seven kingdoms is that more logic than going by what Sasuke said? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:24, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Or are you guys implying that every user of Susanoo automatically learns how to use Ama & Tsuku, too? Because that was never stated. I get that Sasuke and the others had actually time to learn the two techniques, but Kakashi had not. And yet, he used Susanoo without hesitating. @TU3, I'm more or less the only editor in the German wiki, I can do what I want. I have admin rights and provided over 11% of all edits in the seven or so years the wiki exists now. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:30, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

That is both impressive and a little sad. But I'm actually not implying anything in this discussion, I agree that the logic to follow the outdated databooks is entirely flawed, especially given that they read like hype trains about what is happening at the moment. I am just vehemently against the idea of locking down the wiki for fear we could be wrong.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:39, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

The mastery part doesn't really make sense, considering Obito could use Kamui from the get go, so to me it's obvious simply having Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi unlocks Susanoo. Figure one of Obito's eyes had Kamui and Amaterasu and the other Kamui and Tsukuyomi. Upon getting both, Obito and Kakashi unlocked Susanoo. Also Shocking News: Kakashi had no time to master PERFECT Susanoo in 3 seconds either, yet look at him--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

And Kakashi could not use Kamui from the get go, so why can he instantly use Ama and Tsuku? Furthermore, why did none of both used any of the techniques in over 400 chapters? You can't tell me that there never ever was a situation when an Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi would not have been useful. I know that [not showing =/= not knowing], but this is ridiculous. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:49, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

None of us are really to blame, really, the author is. But we should go with what the author says, even though it doesn't make sense. Also didn't they? Grasping at straws here, but just maybe, Obito extinguished Itachi-transplanted Amaterasu from Sasuke by using Amaterasu, duh?--Elveonora (talk) 15:53, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

And the author said that you need to master both eyes (most recent statement), which was confirmed by Kakashi's case. As I said, I get that the others had enough time to learn the techniques, but Kakashi hadn't. The third databook says that you need Ama and Tsuku, yes. But since there was only one Susanoo user, it was impossible to talk about Susanoo in general, since there was only one user. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:01, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

But the subject of the entry wasn't Itachi. It didn't say: "Itachi had to master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi for Susanoo" but "only those who do" also what sense would it make for Itachi needing to master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (2 deities of the trinity, third being Susanoo)) and for others to need only Kamui twice, Kotoamatsukami twice and for Sasuke to need Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi? It's just too inconsistent for the latter to be true--Elveonora (talk) 16:14, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

It's only inconsistent because there was no consistency before. As I said, the subject of the entry can only be Itachi, since he was the only user. If we describe a technique that only one user knows, we can only describe what we saw from that one user. There is no generality as long as there is only one user. It's kinda complex to explain it in English. :/ • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:24, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

@Tau is correct. There was no consistency when it was stated "Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are required to awaken Susanoo" or whatever. That was what the databook said. Then Sasuke comes along and says, and I'm paraphrasing here, that it requires the double Mangekyo or at least, a technique to be unlocked in both eyes (as many Uchiha have the double Mangekyo, but haven't been shown to use Mangekyo-techniques with both eyes, like Izuna and the anime-only Mangekyos that repeatedly used Izanagi). So do we go with what the databook said or what the manga and Sasuke said? Then Madara comes along, uses Susanoo, and our first instinct is to assume that he can use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. The question is, why would Madara use regular genjutsu on A (and I know it's just in the anime, but that's not the point here) instead of Tsukuyomi? A better case, why would Madara use other fire techniques on repeated occasions rather than using Amaterasu? And yet could still use Susanoo? How about Sasuke? We assumed the genjutsu he used on Danzo was Tsukuyomi, but there wasn't enough validation to prove that it was. This was the reason why @Omnibender had the "Can of Worms" discussion. Then Shisui comes along (I know it's still anime) and uses Susanoo, but he still can't use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. @Elveo, the point is, we want to use information that is more consistent. I know there are many inconsistencies on this wiki, but at least we try to make it consistent (because seemingly everything you disagree with is "inconsistent" or "fanon/fallacy"). What Sasuke and the manga stated has happened on repeated occasions, and Kakashi is proof and confirmation of what Sasuke claimed. Maybe the databook that stated the requirements of Susanoo could have been retconned, but honestly, what has happened on a more consistent basis is the appearance of Susanoo users without the usage of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Knowing you, you'll always find a way to disagree, but in the end of the day, we won't know if Madara was able to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, he's gone. We probably won't see Shisui using those techniques either (despite his usage of Susanoo being just anime, but if he did use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, it would be chaos on the talkpages, regardless of it being "just anime"). Despite the numerous inconsistencies on this wiki, we at least attempt to be consistent, and until Kakashi uses Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, it likely won't change. It's looking too much like possessing two Mangekyo each having the ability to use a Mangekyo-required technique grants access to Susanoo. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 22:27, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

I think Kishimoto simply doesn't care anymore, that's why he butchers everything. After all, money > quality.--Elveonora (talk) 23:14, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

Finally, something we agree on regarding this topic. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Kishi gave Kakashi both Sharingan to make everyone happy and read it more (and purchase it more). The Susanoo was still too much, lol. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 23:19, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

EMS vs. MS

So, shouldn't it be noted that despite Perfect Susanoo originally calling for an EMS Kakashi can now use it with only a regular MS?? It should at least be noted in the trivia, if nothing else. Contradictions of this magnitude shouldn't just be ignored. ---Marc Zaddy (talk) 02:09, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Its not a contradiction. EMS was never stated to be required for perfect Susanoo. People of this community, for whatever reason, seemed to think that, but it has never been fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:19, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

This. EMS isn't any stronger than nor grants new abilities from the MS. The EMS is just an MS that doesn't go blind. Obito increased Kakashi's chakra reserves as well as give him his Sharingan for the latter to use Susanoo. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 02:27, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, you'll have to excuse my ignorance of the matter. Thank you for the responses. ---Marc Zaddy (talk) 02:32, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi - fixed time limit [VIZ]

Viz translation seems to state that Kakashi's Susanoo is definitely [temporary]--Reliops (talk) 18:17, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Of course it is, I knew it. But still, thanks god the Perfect Susanoo is just a temporary power-up--Elveonora (talk) 19:15, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yup, and it's temporary because it's Obito's bloody Susanoo. Obito returned from the after life, gave Kakashi his chakra, which activated the the Sharingan and made Susanoo possible. Without his chakra, there is no Sharingan, and without his Sharingan there is no Susanoo. But I'm sure we're supposed to ignore that because Kishi didn't tell us "HEY GAIS!! OBITO-KUN COULD USE SUSANOO AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH, YOU KNOW?"--Reliops (talk) 20:44, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

The original translation said the Sharingan power itself may be temporary. It really stinks when they aren't consistent with what is really going on with the story. As for Susanoo itself, my guess is that Obito had the potential to awaken Susanoo but never could because each of his Sharingans awoken in different users. With his Sharingan powers reawakening within Kakashi simultaneously, it allowed Obito's potential Susanoo to manifest within Kakashi. Overall, whether its limited time per use of the Sharingan or temporary one-time use, I just hope they clear it up soon. Personally, I'm hoping just hoping the writers to place rollercoaster with the our emotions. First taking Kakashi's Sharingan away, then giving it back only to take it away again would suck.—Steveo920 (Talk) 16:54, August 11, 2014

I don't think Kakashi needs Sharingan. His father was legendary and above Sannin even without it. The only reason Kakashi was given back Sharingan temporarily is so he isn't useless against Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

The Susanoo may be temporary, but does that mean the Sharingan is? For all we know, Kakashi's Susanoo could fade away next chapter, then reappear five chapters later. Maybe that's what Obito meant by a "fixed time limit." There could be a certain period of time where Kakashi can utilize Susanoo, then it would disappear. Then maybe it could appear again as Kakashi's reserves go up, then disappear again. As for taking the Sharingan away again, yes, that would suck. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 22:29, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Pointless to speculate, but sounds like nonsense with all honesty. It either vanishes or it doesn't, former seems most likely--Elveonora (talk) 22:42, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'll believe it when it vanishes. Don't forget that "temporary" can be anywhere from a few chapters to 20 years from now. Don't start dancing yet people. Until it vanishes, he has it, and it isn't temporary. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:59, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

What kind of logic is that? Obito said it's temporary. It is going to vanish at some point. How long "temporary" is is the question.--Reliops (talk) 00:37, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think what Ten Tailed Fox is saying that Obito only say it "may" be temporary, meaning he isn't sure. The point is we don't know if it will expire unless the writers make that happen.—Steveo920 (Talk) 20:46, August 11, 2014

The Viz translations doesn't say "may" - it flat out says it's temporary. Are they not a reliable source now?--Reliops (talk) 02:36, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Viz does not say "temporary". It said "fixed time limit", which can mean anything, including a short usage before required a recharge period. I'm not saying that Kakashi definitely will keep the new Sharingan powers. It is simply that things like "may" and "fixed time limit" can be interrupted in different ways.—Steveo920 (Talk) 22:46, August 11, 2014

Stupid question; what does it matter?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 02:51, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I agree. The argument has no correct answer because the manga has yet to provide it. Mostly, I'm just one of those Kakashi fans hoping he keeps this ability.—Steveo920 (Talk) 22:55, August 11, 2014

@TheUltimate3: It doesn't. @Reliops: I know what the damned Viz says, I own a subscription to Jump, which I read eagerly every Monday. That doesn't change the fact that you know about as much of what is going to happen as the rest of us. It could vanish soon, it could vanish in 20-30 years, or it could not vanish at all, but the point of the matter is, that, until it vanishes completely, even Obito's words are speculation (characters aren't the author people; they're not all knowing). ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:58, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

So this argument doesn't matter, yet we are having an argument about it?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 03:01, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ask the one who posted the argument. It doesn't matter to me or the article, for that matter, but if I (and others) don't say anything, then people tend to take it as permission to add speculation into the articles: so yes, I argued it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:07, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

I haven't claimed to know more than what the manga actually says, but the fact it says Kakashi's Susanoo is not permanent is relevant, which is why I bothered bringing it up. Like you said it could go away in the next chapter or 30 years later, it doesn't really matter when it goes away, but I don't agree with the logic that we should assume it's not temporary because we're not told how temporary it is. If anything, TTF, that makes you look like you're acting as if you know more than what is stated in the manga. It doesn't matter whether you'll believe it when you see it, so long as it's stated in the manga, it's a relevant distinction to make in the article.--Reliops (talk) 03:26, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Just wait for the next chapter. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 03:58, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

And it is a distinction that will not be placed in any article until it actually happens, because, like you have been told, Obito wasn't certain in his own statements: Viz and Japanese. He was speculating as are you. Wait until the next chapter, or however many chapters Kishi wants to take to show us how Kakashi's situation turns out. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 04:15, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

You're going to have to explain what is so speculative about "It has a fixed time limit" because that doesn't sound speculative at all.--Reliops (talk) 14:34, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Before giving him a chance to wall of text you. If it has a limit, add the limit. No need to speculate at to what that limit is, just state it could have a limit.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 14:38, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, for all the talk about whether or not Kakashi has limits with the new Sharingan, in fact he always had limits to its usage. Even after her three-year training, he still had to limit himself on what he would use the Sharingan for.—Steveo920 (Talk) 10:44, August 12, 2014

OK, I'm getting annoyed with this edit war. We don't know whether Kakashi is even going to use Susanoo again, and Obito didn't use the words "per usage" - so about you stop adding that?--Reliops (talk) 20:24, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be brought up in Kakashi's page under his Mangekyo Sharingan page since that statement more then likely refer's too his Mangekyo Sharingan as a whole not just his Susanoo.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 19:55, August 13, 2014 (UTC)

This page covers the bulk detail of each user's Susanoo. Similar to how each Susanoo's appearance is vague on the user's actual page. Until it is proven the limits of Kakashi's Susanoo, it should probably just stay on this page.—Steveo920 (Talk) 18:36, August 13, 2014

Eternal Mangekyō Version

Since we're removing speculation, can we get rid of "Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Version" in the galleries? While it's entirely possible, we don't know for certain if that's the reason Sasuke's Susanoo changed in appearance, nor do we know if Madara's Susanoo changed in appearance when he got Izuna's eyes. As of now, the Eternal Mangekyō hasn't done anything different from the regular Mangekyō, save for not going blind, so it seems unlikely to me that it would just randomly change one of Susanoo's forms without affecting the two previous forms.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:25, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Considering the only factor pertaining the change was the eye transplant, the deduction is that it had something to do with it. So it's really no speculation, because it's documented as seen. X Susanoo form > eye transplant > X Susanoo form. It would be speculation only if other possible factors were at play--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

I get that, but is it not speculation to assume that what applied to Sasuke also applied to Madara?--BeyondRed (talk) 20:34, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Obito/Kakashi proved that Perfect and Perfect/Stabilised Susanoo are NOT EMS only. It simply takes a greater Mastery of Susanoo and Chakra levels to use it apparently. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 23:23, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

EMS is just an MS that doesn't go blind. The former isn't any stronger than the latter. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 23:25, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I think you lot are missing the point. I agree, EMS is just MS that doesn't go blind, however, the Susanoo appearances differ between versions: Sasuke case in point. When he first used what we call the "final" Susanoo with MS, it looked like a purple version of Itachi's (even in the manga). After gaining EMS, now it has a sword of black flames and a beak. Therefore, we can conclude that, while they are still the same functionally, there is a difference in appearance which warrants the label. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:30, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

I never said we should take off the EMS version, I know the Susanoo are different after the implant, and technically, Sasuke first manifested Amaterasu in his Susanoo before getting the EMS, right before his eyes became blinded. WindStar7125 ^(Talk) _{(Contributions)} 23:32, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Edit Conflict: BeyondRed is asking if we can apply that same logic to everyone just because it was present in Sasuke's version. Here's my answer to that: Yes, unless we're proven wrong. Sasuke is the only Uchiha we've seen develop Susanoo from its initial stage all the way through the "Perfect" stabilized form, and is only one of two Uchiha whose final forms we've seen prior to gaining Susanoo's lower body (the other being Itachi). That gives me no reason to doubt that the other Susanoo work similarly. So again, until proven otherwise, we have no evidence that other Susanoo would differ. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:35, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Therefore it's safe to conclude that Madara's final Susanoo looked differently before he took Izuna's eyes.--Elveonora (talk) 09:32, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

Development

While we all agree that in the armor state, the defense increase. Madara's Susano'o was able to withstand a close-range Tailed-Beast Bomb without a scratch. But something like preventing the user from being moved unless going through the various layers, is pure speculation.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:24, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty sure that just carried over from the days when Susanoo with legs and floating inside of it hadn't happened.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:12, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi's 'Temporary' Mangekyou Sharingan

I've noticed everyone saying that Obito stated Kakashi's new Sharingan to be temporary. Notice, Obito said nothing of the sort. He said it MAY be temporary, he never said he was sure of it. Furthermore, isn't it possible to assume that Obito was referring to Madara stealing the eye from Kakashi? There is no proof that the Obito stated the Sharingan to be Temporary, there is only proof of him saying it MIGHT be temporary. It is not known whether or not the Sharingan is, in fact, temporary. That would be like going back to the assumption of Minato creating the Hirashin. Please, refrain from saying that Obito confirmed the Sharingan as temporary, as it is completely unknown. ExyleCage (talk) 17:46, August 31, 2014 (UTC)ExyleCageExyleCage (talk) 17:46, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

"May be temporary, but" and "Maybe it's temporary" are two different things in the English language. The first basically says it's temporary.--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora. This wouldn't be the first time the Manga had extreme grammatical errors. I've seen plenty of times (specifically in the chapter Obito says this) where they had the context completely blown out of proportion. --ExyleCage (talk) 14:31, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

We don't KNOW if it's temporary. We simply ASSUME it's temporary. Different final words from Obito could give different ideas. Him telling Kakashi not "return his gift" could imply it will last. For the Kakashi-fans, we can hope that it lasts and "Kakashi of the Sharingan" continues. Either way, we should probably learn before the series is over.—Steveo920 (Talk) 16:45, August 31, 2014

@Steveo920. I see. Your explanation actually makes sense, as opposed to that of the Manga. --ExyleCage (talk) 14:31, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I am going to go ahead and change 'Obito has stated there is a time limit' to 'Obito has stated there maybe a time limit'. --ExyleCage (talk) 14:38, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

He didn't say "maybe" but "may be, but" you guys like to convince yourselves of many things, don't you?--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Either way, that chapter had numerous grammatical errors, so, we could go ahead and chalk it up to the translators idiocy. Either way, we do not know whether or not it is truly temporary. We cannot just assume that it truly IS temporary. --ExyleCage (talk) 14:49, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Viz and raw also say: "it may be temporary, but not worthless". When I tell someone: "you may be an ass, but I like you nonetheless" it means "you are an ass, but I like you nonetheless" there's no "maybe" when you say "it may be so, but" you acknowledge it's true--Elveonora (talk) 14:53, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so, he lost his Sharingan FOR NOW. That doesn't mean it's permanently gone. We've seen Naruto restore Kakashi's original eye. What if Sasuke could restore his Sharingan? That moon has only done 1 thing as of yet. Also, the Rikoudo Sennin is still alive. He could probably restore it, or just simply give him the ability to Copy Ninjutsu but not get any of the other abilities of the Sharingan. Hell, he NEEDED the Sharingan for Raikiri! That's why I keep saying that it isn't temporary. --ExyleCage (talk) 19:55, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

To be completely honest, I'm getting tired of Kakashi fans' delusions.--Elveonora (talk) 20:09, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hurts to say this, but... @ExyleCage, the eyes are gone. Let's be pragmatic here. Where exactly is Kakashi going to get Obito's eyes? Revive him through Edo Tensei? No one wants to go through that again. He even said it himself that "Kakashi of the Sharingan is no more," and plus Obito went back to the afterlife with his eyes. And Sasuke can't restore his Sharingan, how would he do that? It hurt me a little to see the eyes disappear, and just like you, I am a huge Kakashi fan, but at the same time, I'm a realist. The eyes are gone. It hurts, but deal with it. Kishi can write the manga story however he wants to. There's nothing we can do about it. --WindStar7125 20:33, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveonora, I actually hated Kakashi. It's just that his entire arsenal was based off of either a Sharingan ability, or a Raikiri ability. It's kinda his THING! @WindStar7125, I know what you mean. But, I've grown into a Kakashi fan, and, to know that the last few Arcs were based off of Kakashi's childhood, it just kinda seems weird that he won't be able to use Raikiri anymore. --ExyleCage (talk) 12:39, September 5, 2014 (UTC)ExyleCageExyleCage (talk) 12:39, September 5, 2014 (UTC)--

Revisiting Kakashi and Obito

Chapter 691 has made it undeniably clear that Kakashi could not have used Susanoo without Obito helping him. That makes it a collaborative effort, i.e. Obito should be listed as a user, on his own, or with Kakashi, as Kakashi could not have used it without his chakra.--Reliops (talk) 20:04, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

I anticipated a discussion like this will come up after the recent chapter. Hopefully there won't be too big of an uproar. Imma just wait and see what the decision on this is. --WindStar7125 20:24, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

You are probably right but I don't see why this has to be a long discussion. We know that a jutsu is a collaborative effort when two parties are required, e.g. Naruto and Sasuke's "Shakuton" jutsu. Kakashi can't have Susanoo on his own, and we know that Obito was "inside" him when it was happening. Either they're both listed as independent users (which wouldn't make sense because Kakashi couldn't have used Susanoo on his own, or be problematic because Obito wasn't shown using it), or we list them both as requiring the other party.--Reliops (talk) 20:37, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

It may be a long discussion because many are biased toward Kakashi. I am not even going to argue on this topic, because it is flat-out a waste of time to argue with users who refuse to back down from anybody and will never admit they are wrong. Whether it be the forums or the talk pages, people here have egos. That is why I am hoping this won't take too long. We certainly don't need to see another goddamn Ten Tailed Fox vs. Elveonora boxing match again (Which seems to happen everywhere, every time, and every day). I am a big Kakashi fan, but I'm a realist as well. Whatever happens can happen. "Is it Kakashi's Susanoo?; No it's Obito's, I can prove it!" That is what I anticipate, and will not take part in unless I have to. --WindStar7125 20:58, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not touching this one. Good luck to those who do. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:48, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

No forthcoming boxing match including parties of yours truly and the aforementioned gentleman, regarding this topic in particular is imminent I'm afraid, for I don't care about the topic at hand to your dismay--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

If anyone is opposed to adding Obito as a user, with or without Kakashi, please state so as clear and concise as possible. I'm not looking for a drawn out argument.--Reliops (talk) 23:06, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

I personally think we should leave it as just Kakashi's. It took manifesting the power simultaneously inside Kakashi's eyes to awaken this power. It even reflected Kakshi's trademark scar.—Steveo920 (Talk) 19:10, September 4, 2014

That's what I'm getting at. @TU3, @Fox-boss, @Elveo, including myself from what I see, are really uninterested regarding this topic. Other sysops and rollbacks could be as well. You can do what you want, but it'll most likely get reverted, and you probably shouldn't get your hopes up too high on a decision being made here. I don't anticipate things changing, but whatever. Why does my opinion matter? I cannot persuade those who won't listen. --WindStar7125 23:13, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with that, Steveo920, is that while the Susanoo has a scar like Kakashi, we now know for a fact Obito was still with Kakashi, aiding him with his chakra to awaken and maintain the Sharingan. In other words, it is by definition a collaboration between two parties.--Reliops (talk) 00:02, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't kakashi at all, obito went inside of him and controlled his body. Munchvtec (talk) 12:49, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

I've been saying it's actually Obito's Susanoo but the scar has people adamant it isn't. Regardless of that, it is at the very least a collaborative effort and the article should be updated to reflect that.--Reliops (talk) 18:58, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's like saying that every jinchūriki can use the Tailed Beast Ball only by collaborating with their tailed beasts.-- JOA20 19:08, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchūriki and bijū are considered to be in a different category of collaboration with good reason though. They are permanently stuck together, and jinchūriki can use their bijū skill because of it, e.g. transform into their bijū forms, etc. This is similar, but not the same because it's two parties temporarily combining their powers to achieve a result, i.e. it's collaboration.--Reliops (talk) 20:22, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Except no jinchūriki can achieve Tailed Beast Mode and use Tailed Beast Ball without gaining the tailed beast's cooperation.-- JOA20 12:20, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Sure they can use bijū skill on their own, to some extent anyway. They just won't have the same level of control, e.g. Yugito could transform in to the Nibi, and Naruto uses Bijūdama once in 4 tails though he lost control, and transformed into a mini Kyūbi on his own. That is beside the point however. Jinchūriki are classed in a different category because their union with their bijū is permanent until death. That is not the case for Kakashi and Obito, who only temporarily combined their efforts.--Reliops (talk) 16:47, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi's use for Susano'o is exactly the same as Naruto using the Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken. You can see the TB molding Chakra for Naruto, so he could use that Chakra for his technique. Obito's and Kakashi's case is the same. Obito was molding Chakra for Kakashi. Just like Naruto's technique isn't considered collaborative, Kakashi's is the same.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not. To start, Kakashi is not a jinchūriki. Secondly, all Obito said was that he was giving him a gift; that he was moulding Kakashi's chakra for him is an assumption your part. Jinchūriki and bijū performing techniques together are collaborative but they are in a category of their because they are, at their roots, intertwined. Kakashi and Obito are completely different.--Reliops (talk) 18:55, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

The only difference between jinchūriki/bijū and Kakashi/Obito is that Obito is not a bijū. Kakashi could use Susanoo only with Obito's chakra, just like Naruto could use the Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken only with the tailed beasts' chakra. So, either put all the techniques Naruto could use with the nine bijū's help as collaborative, or keep things like this.-- JOA20 19:35, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

My days. OK, for one there, are a number of differences between Kakashi/Obito and jinchūriki and bijū, namely that Obito's chakra wasn't sealed in Kakashi and that Kakashi didn't die when it was taken out him. They are both collaborative but we don't put them in the same category.

Now you answer these two simple questions: 1) could Kakashi perform Susanoo without Obito's chakra, and 2) do two or more parties need to combine their efforts for it to be collaborative effort? If you have actually read the manga and answer yes to both question, then this discussion is over.--Reliops (talk) 21:01, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

1. No. If Kakashi required Obito's chakra to manifest the Mangekyō Sharingan in both eyes, then he required it also to manifest Susanoo.
2. Yes. However, for these three jutsu that Naruto used through the tailed beasts' chakra, are considered to be Naruto's own techniques, not collaborational ones.
3. About the no sealing of Obito's chakra in Kakashi, at least six of the tailed beasts' chakra in Naruto wasn't sealed, just "transferred", like Obito did with Kakashi.
4. Now, please tell me what differences there would be between Naruto's Tailed Beast Rasengans and Kakashi's Susanoo, apart from the Tailed Beast stuff. I'll answer for you: there's none.

Have a nice day.-- JOA20 09:08, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Your answers to the first two questions should have effectively ended this debate. If Kakashi can't use the Sharingan/Susanoo without Obito and the definition of a collaborative jutsu is two parties or more need to combine their efforts than the (with Kakashi/Obito) tag is more than justified.

• Naruto's Jiton Rasengan is considered a Tailed Beast Skill. Why do you think that is? Jinchūriki and bijū are classed differently from regular people for the reasons I've listed previously. How are you not understanding this one simple distinction?
• The bijū gave a portion of their chakra to Naruto that was his to keep. Whether they sealed it or added to his own chakra, we don't know either for a fact, but it doesn't matter because we treat bijū/jinchūriki in a separate category altogether. All that matters for us to list his jutsu as a Tailed Beast Skill is that he uses bijū chakra to do it.
• The difference between Naruto's Bijūdama and Kakashi's Susanoo is that Naruto is a jinchūriki and when he loses his bijū, he dies, whereas Kakakashi goes on living without Obito's chakra. That's the difference.

Your mistake is treating Kakashi like a jinchūriki and Obito as his bijū. They are fundamentally different.--Reliops (talk) 18:44, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Very true. Riptide240 (talk) 19:12, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Really? Kakashi using Obito's powers is the same as a jinchūriki using the tailed beast's powers: no one can do that without having the other's chakra. Anyway, the point is, you want to put Obito as a user, right? Go ahead and try it. See the section below: I bet someone will cancel it right away. Or maybe you want to put Kakashi Hatake (with Obito Uchiha)? Out of curiosity, I took a look at how it would turn out, and it apparently doesn't work. Not to mention it would be totally inconsistent if the techniques I mentioned above weren't put in the same way (Naruto (with Son Gokū) for the Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken for example).-- JOA20 10:00, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

I am trying and failing to understand how you cannot see the difference between jinchūriki and bijū and Kakashi and Obito. One is a Tailed Beast Skill, the other is collaboration. I'm quite honestly getting tired of going in circles.--Reliops (talk) 09:52, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

Its not a collaboration if the other one is dead. Obito gifted Kakashi his chakra. It was Kakashi that activated Susanoo, used Kamui, Kamui Shuriken, and Kamui Raikiri. Other than giving his chakra to Kakashi, which allowed him to temporarily use the Mangekyō Sharingan again, Obito sat there and watched. He didn't possess Kakashi, because Kakashi thanked Obito for gifting him his power aloud after activating Susanoo. Therefore Kakashi used it, not Obito. Now, to end this before it becomes another TSB debate or god forbid a Jiton debate, this will end here. When Obito is shown using Susanoo, as in, I see it surrounding him through his work alone, he will be listed. Until then, though, Kakashi used it of his own will, so he gets listed and Obito doesn't. That's all. Find other things to argue about. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 14:41, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

Obito

While Obito never used it, we saw Kakashi use Susanoo because of having both of Obito's Mangekyō Sharingan. So, is there any clear reason not to put Obito as a user? Please note that I'm not suggesting to put every double Mangekyō user as a Susanoo user, since we have yet to understand wheter that's really enough to gain Susanoo.-- JOA20 19:38, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

When we see Obito use it: yes. Until then: no. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:46, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Not to sound rude, but…then why is Shukaku listed as a Tailed Beast Ball user, despite never actually using it? That's because, as Gyūki stated, every Tailed Beast can use the Tailed Beast Ball. Here we have Kakashi, who has Obito's powers, and then uses Susanoo. Unless you're saying that Kakashi could use Susanoo while Obito couldn't (which would be ridiculous since Kakashi was using Obito's power), I do not see logical reasons not to add Obito as a user.-- JOA20 19:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

You got your answer. Shukaku is listed because the Tailed Beast Ball is the ultimate technique of all nine tailed beasts, as stated by Gyūki. Was this Susanoo ever stated by Kakashi to be Obito's? No. Susanoo is a manifestation of the user's chakra. Kakashi used it. Its his unless Kishimoto states otherwise, which he hasn't. Get over it. Move on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 14:43, September 9, 2014 (UTC)