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Kekkei Genkai

Is there a reason we don't list Lava Release as its Kekkei Genkai? Seelentau 愛 09:37, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Aren't Kekkei Genkai passed on via blood connection? I don't know, that doesn't sound like anything that could count for Tailed Beasts as well... Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 11:30, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but to mix two natures and thus create an advanced nature is called a Kekkei Genkai, too. Also, Tailed Beasts can bleed. Seelentau 愛 11:35, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
From what I remember, this was discussed years ago and ShounenSuki stated that tailed beasts, being tailed beasts didn't have kekkei genkai, that kekkei genkai was a human trait, and animals and beasts just kinda...do stuff on their own. Honestly I'm fine with whatever.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:24, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I think the whole "tailed beasts are nothing but living chakra" thing has been sort of disproved a bit, I mean they were thought to be primitive forces of nature full of hatred and shi* tied to many myths and prejudices from ignorance and fear, kinda like people thinking storms, tsunami, earthquakes and so on are wrath of Gods. In my opinion they are no less real and alive than Kakashi let's say. They think, have emotions, they sleep, they have flesh, can get hurt and die and so on (with their revival being the most supernatural thing about them) I don't see a reason why shouldn't they have DNA. They are made of chakra only when sealed, but who says it's true only for them? For all we know everything sealed with fuuinjutsu changes state temporarily. For example Orochimaru wasn't slithering through Sasuke's digestive system, he was just chakra and soul inside of him and Samui&Atsui are either dead or chakra as well for a while now. Same for things like kunai and shuriken, they don't cease to exist when in scrolls, just aren't corporeal until unsealed. With us handing anime's canonical status differently from filler to filler, this likely isn't to be of much evidence, but we could see cloning of Gyuki's horn ._. Just because they are embodied fragments of a deity tree's chakra given mind and form from nothing by Jesus doesn't mean they aren't beings, creatures, characters.

Short version, advanced nature = kekkei genkai.--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose that's also something which would be easier to solve with a fact policy. Juuust saiyan. So Kekkei Genkai it is. :x Seelentau 愛 13:51, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
Kay.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:06, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I don't really think we should list this Lava Release as kekkei genkai. I mean, by definition, that's an ability that stems from a genetic trait. Can we really say that a tailed beast has genetic traits in that sense? I'll only be truly convinced when an official source unambiguously calls it a kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:43, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

/shrug Despite being massive beasts of chakra given flesh, the tailed beasts are of flesh and possess and seem to possess bodily fluids (everything leaking out of the Six-Tails, I noticed and laughed at the Two-Tails drooling after getting sucker punched by Madara, the Eight-Tails bled a lot during the battle) We already list them as using elements (Hello Shukaku and your Wind Release) and the whole Advanced Nature mess.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to mention they also age. @Omni, let me just ask you: if Son Goku's Lava Release isn't genetic, why is he the only one out of the 9 to have it? If they were just "chakra incarnate" of the Ten-Tails, all of them would have the same powers, meaning his Lava Release doesn't stem from chakra but something else, body.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
Should we also add it to techniques' classification?--LeafShinobi (talk) 00:45, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
You mean Roshi's? No, because he used it through tailed beast skill. But the Lava techniques used by the actual beast/Roshi transformed should be classified as Kekkei Genkai tho--Elveonora (talk) 11:12, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
Rōshi used Yōton the same way Kakashi uses the Sharingan, I think. Seelentau 愛 11:55, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a little erroneous to call Son Gokū's Lava release a kekkei genkai with 100% certainty? A kekkei genkai is, by definition, an ability passed down genetically, something we have no evidence of being done or doable in Son Gokū's case. His Lava release is also different from the other two we've seen, and is unique to him/those he inhabits. It seems more like Shukaku's sand to me.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:26, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

@Elv/Seel It is exactly like Kakashi and his Sharingan. Or Kabuto and his everything.
@Soul reaper: We actually had a long discussion here about just this sort of thing. Basically, past evidence points that, in this case, ANRs are done via kekkei genkai, so kekkei genkai it is until proven otherwise.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:32, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
But surely we have to look at all angles of a situation? I mean, yes, for an advanced nature its generally pretty safe to say they're the result of a kekkei genkai when we're talking about other characters, but that's because the other character all have a set of rules applied to them stemming from their being human. I think it's a bit much to conclude that because something is true for a human, it must be true for a tailed beast. They have a completely different make up and rule set. While they do have physical form, and blood and drool, they are still an embodiment of chakra. They were made from a monster that was also a tree and when they die it's temporary. To assume that a tailed beasts power is a kekkei genkai because humans with a similar power obtain it through kekkei genkai just doesn't make much sense to me.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:42, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

We did look at all the angles. Again, in that discussion. So far, being living chakra has not stopped them from doing nature releases, bleeding, aging, ect. The only thing that separates them from any other living thing on the planet is that they came from the Ten-Tails. As so far, we know the only way to mix two natures is through a kekkei genkai and yeah.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:00, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Why would living chakra stop them from using nature release? Nature release is done using chakra. Anyway, I still don't agree that it is, without a doubt kekkei genkai, but I guess if so many people have discussed it that much and come to the conclusion there's not much point arguing about it anymore.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:09, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
Well, Mei's Yōton is a Kekkei Genkai, so by our logic, Son's is it, too. Either that or we create two separate articles for each Yōton. Seelentau 愛 13:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

@SoulReaper, using an advanced nature requires a specific to the nature unique genetics so the user can mix two basic natures that make it up. Son Goku is the only Tailed Beast capable of doing so, so if it were any different for them than result of genetics in humans, all Tailed Beasts (and by extension their jinchuuriki) would have advanced natures. Take it Sage of Six Path created each of them unique.--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty odd conclusion to jump to and I honestly don't see how you could logically jump to such a dramatic conclusion--Soul reaper (talk) 15:08, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
Appears quite logical of a conclusion to me. But I'm eager to hear your version better--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
I was more talking about your claim that "all Tailed Beasts (and by extension their jinchuuriki) would have advanced natures" of it wasn't a kekkei genkai. There's absolutely nothing to support such a claim. We don't even know if all Tailed Beasts have a nature type. In the manga we've only seen Matatabi and Shukuku using a basic nature type, and Son Goku using an advanced nature type. Son Goku's having control over lava has no baring on the other tailed beasts' powers, regardless of whether its kekkei genkai or not.--Soul reaper (talk) 03:40, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Every chakra leans towards a nature. The only way to use Lava is with a Kekkei Genkai, if it could be done without it in case of a Tailed Beast, it's logical to conclude all 9 would be able to do so, there's no reason why would it be unique to Son in that case.--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto edition

So, Naruto being able to use Son's Lava Release brings this up again. I still maintain that Son's LR shouldn't be considered a kkg. It still is a FR and ER mix, but it's not a kkg. Shinju's jinchūriki creates a mix of at least four elements, but I don't see anyone rushing to call it a bloodline ability, or create an unnamed kkg-like page for the mix. It's very clearly an ability derived from the tailed beast. Same with Son. I'm making this topic partially because LR has yet to be added to Naruto's infobox (at least as I'm typing this), and I'd like to appeal on it being considered a kkg for Son and those who get LR from having its chakra. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference in Son's LR is that it's a tailed beast skill, not a kkg. It still mixes ER and FR, so those two natures belong in the infoboxes of those who use Son's LR, but no addition of LR as kkg for Naruto and Roshi, just in the nature transformation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with you on the first thing. I say LR should stay as a KKG for Son Goku until we are told otherwise. Because otherwise he would be the only character that is an exception to the rule that advanced natures require KKG and the only Tailed Beasts capable of doing so from 9, which is illogical. For its jinchuuriki Roshi, perhaps we should remove it as a KKG from him, but still please, not the best itself.--Elveonora (talk) 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Right. I guess we shouldn't put Son Gokū's (or at least its jinchūriki's) Lava Release as Kekkei Genkai. Maybe a trivia mention in the Lava Release page would solve all problems.--JOA20 (talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Having Son have it as a kkg means that their jinchūriki would also have it as a kekkei genkai. It'd akin to Deidara's clay, hiden and kkg, only in this case, tbs and kkg. It makes no sense for the main source to be kkg, but not when it or part of it is sealed inside a host, which draws power from it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:24, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Then we keep it for Roshi as a kkg too if you insist so much :P Seriously, we don't:
  • Know how it worked in case of Son and Roshi
  • If Naruto truly can't combine fire-earth on his own now... just because he asked for the chakra isn't a confirmation that he can't, since he doesn't know fire or earth. Unless you believe that having an elemental KKG magically grants you knowledge/ability to use the natures which make it up since birth or something without having to learn them first.--Elveonora (talk) 18:37, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Well, who taught Hashirama how to use Wood Release then? But well...--JOA20 (talk) 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Do we also remember Haku? His parents died, and even if Zabuza taught him ninjutsu in general, there's no way he taught him Ice Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I meant it in a way that Haku could have learned Wind and Water releases first and then figured out the rest. The anime-only ice dome technique didn't show up in the manga anyway, I believe.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

It was in the manga too. I forget the chapter but it was definitely there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Correction, Ice Dome is another technique, I mean this Certain-Kill Ice Spears--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Still doesn't answer who he would have learned Ice Release from. And there's also Hashirama's case, which JOA20 brought up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Simple, Ice Mirrors was Haku's original technique, not... EDIT: article says it's a clan technique, which still means someone had to have taught him? 0_o Unless he figured it out instinctively. For Hashirama, he wasn't shown using any Wood Release in his childhood either--Elveonora (talk) 19:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
I'd say that one can learn by themselves, as long as they have the skills to do it.--JOA20 (talk) 19:07, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
How to use Ice Release and in fact develop the technique, he'd have to be self-taught with Ice Release. Hashirama would have to have learned Wood Release at some point, and as its earliest known user, he'd have to have discovered it by himself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:08, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here is how I think it should be done. Gaara inherited his sand abilities from Shukaku. Even after the beast was extracted, he retained its abilities, same as Obito retained his ability to make Truth-Seeking Balls (though the source is debatable) after losing the Ten-Tails. Naruto is going to have to be listed as a user of Lava Release (and its break-down natures), since to not do so would be ignoring he precedent set by Gaara, but since the Lava Release is not a product of Naruto's bloodline (the definition of a bloodline limit is a genetic trait that allows one to mix two chakras into an advanced one), we don't list it as a kekkei genkai. Only a nature he has uses of (thanks to Son Gokū). As to Son Gokū, the definition of a kekkei genkai, as I've said, is gentic. It very well can be his kekkei genkai. But his jinchūriki do not possess his blood, ero, it is not their kekkei genkai. To sum it up. Rōshi remains a user of Earth, Fire, and Lava Release but we will no longer list it as his kekkei genkai. Naruto gets added as an Earth, Fire, and Lava Release user, but, again, not as a kekkei genkai. Son Gokū, on the other hand, get listed as a user and as a Kekkei Genkai, because we have precedent for a kekkei genkai appearing in a tailed beast (Ten-Tails and the Sharingan). Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 20:51, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think Naruto shouldn't be listed at all, he was just given molded chakra. Listing him as Lava user would be like listing him as Water Release user too since he did the combo with Yamato back there.--Elveonora (talk) 20:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't matter. The chakra of the beast is in him. He asked for Son's chakra same as he does with Kurama as of late and then he used the nature. Its important that you realize that. He used it. Just like he uses Kurama's chakra when he goes KCM. He gets listed. That's going to happen either way. What we need to decide is if he gets listed as a kekkei genkai user for doing so, and I say not. Edit: Also, bad example. Yamato used Suiton back then. There is a big difference. Son is not helping him preform the technique. Naruto is using Son's chakra, just like a jinchūriki uses their Bijū's chakra, to preform it. Naruto is doing so himself. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 20:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with TTF (Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC))

No, Naruto isn't using the Yoton nature himself. All he does is just add the by "Son Goku" molded chakra to his Rasenshuriken. No different than Cursed Seals users using Senjutsu chakra for example, or the shinobi alliance Bijuu chakra. For all we know, Naruto may have actually inherited the ability to mold Yoton chakra of his own, but until we are told or shown so, he isn't to be listed.--Elveonora (talk) 21:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with almost everything you said TTF, except for the part of keeping Son as a kekkei genkai user. We have a precedent for a tailed beast with a kekkei genkai, yes, but that doesn't change the minimum four nature mix as a precedent for not calling a tailed beast based nature mix a bloodline ability. Elveonora, as long as the tailed beast chakra is in him, the chakra is his to use. If you think like that, Roshi wouldn't be listed as a Lava Release user because the chakra isn't his, the ability to use Yoton has been linked to the Four-Tails since it was first mentioned. It has become a part of him pretty much as much as it would have if he had been the actual jinchuriki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:08, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
By same logic all KKG implanters(madara, obito, danzo, kakashi)should be removed, becose they dont have ability use it iplanted parts have(cells, eye`s)in which not they dna, but originator`sRage gtx (talk) 21:16, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
He will be listed, Elve. Its happening. He used it. Its his. He gets listed. Its poor logic, to begin with, because, by your logic, Son should be listed as a user of the new Rasenshuriken since, by your logic, Son is helping him in such a dynamic way. By that logic, also, all tailed beast inherited abilities should not be their users because the jinchūriki has to borrow another source of chakra to preform them. Now, back to the subject: @Omni, the reason I don't acknowledge the Ten-Tails four natures thing is because Hiruzen noted that it was entirely different from kekkei genkai and kekkei tōta, so we have no way of using that to determine what was going on there. We know the Shinju has a Sharingan and we know that, in order to mold two chakras together, you have to have a genetic ability. That makes Son Gokū a kekkei genkai user. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

rage gtx makes a fair pointIloveinoxxx (talk) 21:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Jesus, can you guys slow down a bit and cease to completely misunderstand me? Read carefully what I write: I believe, that Roshi actually had the ability to mold Yoton chakra himself (through tailed beast skill/kekkei genkai, that's irrelevat, point being he could do it just like Gaara can move sand. He inherited it from Son Goku) But in this very specific instance shown on the 3 pages, Naruto hasn't molded the Yoton chakra himself, he was handled it by Son Goku phantom, chakra transfer technique-wise. Naruto actually may or may not have gotten the ability to mold Yoton chakra from Son Goku like Roshi did, but he hasn't done so yet.--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not misunderstanding you, Elve. You keep repeating the same thing and it all has the same basic flaw. Naruto used Lava Release. He got the chakra the same way every Jinchūriki gets it. Son Gokū can't transfer his chakra to Naruto from inside Madara. The chakra of Son inside of Naruto has some of his conscious attached to it, as we saw in the last chapter, and Naruto was able to use the chakra the same way every jinchūriki uses it. There is NO other interpretation. It doesn't matter, frankly, how you think Rōshi used Lava Release, because you have no proof of it. Rōshi used it. That's all we know. Naruto used it and Son's chakra is inside of him. Like it or lump it, he gets listed for that reason. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:26, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
TTF, unless I'm mistaken (raw checking might be necessary) is that it was beyond/above kekkei genkai and kekkei tōta, not different. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:29, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
He used Lava Release the same way as Kiba has Rasengan or Sasuke Senjutsu. And that's my very point, we know Roshi used it, but we don't know if it was the same way as Naruto or if it was like Gaara. You just assume the former.--Elveonora (talk) 21:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveonora, You`re logic is correct but one thing, Naruto pseudo-jinch of Yonbi and by you`re implaing KinGinBros dont have Kurama power at all he just lend`s it to themRage gtx (talk) 21:40, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

That's laughable, Elve, no disrespect intended, that you accuse my viewpoint of being an assumption when you're entire theory revolves around one. I know the following: Rōshi used Lava Release, Naruto used Lava Release—both have a strong tie to Son Gokū, who is, similarly, a user of Lava Release. I know that Naruto got chakra from Son the same way he gets it from Kurama, or any jinchūriki gets it from their beast, for that matter. And I know we list them as users of those techniques because they're using them, regardless of where the chakra is from. That is all facts from the manga that do not require me to speculate or assume. Naruto will be listed. All that is left is to clear up the Son Gokū/kekkei genkai debacle. @Omni-san, we might ask Seel to translate that for us, because the translation I read said that it was "wholly different from a kekkei genkai or a kekkei tōta" (I'm paraphrasing but I remember it specifically saying "wholly different"). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:39, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You are still missing my point. If we learn that Roshi could only do Yoton no differently than Naruto, I will make sure he gets removed.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Only, you won't, because the fact of the matter is, no matter how it originated, he used it. Also, don't bother getting Seel to explain anything to me unless he can translate for me anything that refutes the facts I presented you. You've yet to give me, or anyone here, anything other than your personal opinion, case in point, you started your theory with "I believe" and, while I respect your opinion (please understand that I respect it, regardless of whether I agree with it or not), it is not a fact, and it still doesn't refute that they are both users. Period. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Confused now. Why is this a discussion? If he's using Lava Release, from a tailed beast (if only chakra) that is within him, why wouldn't he have Lava Release?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Because he hasn't molded the Yoton chakra himself by combining Fire and Earth natures, Son Goku phantom did and sent it to Naruto. He may or may not have it, but we can't assume he does. EDIT: @Foxie, how a technique is used is what matters the most, otherwise we would list Konoha 11 as Rasengan users pal--Elveonora (talk) 22:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
It wasn't a discussion. The original discussion was to determine whether or not Son's Lava Release is a kekkei genkai. Naruto is getting listed, as I've already said. Elve just disagrees with that, and so the conversation got way off topic. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Naruto gets listed only over my dead body.--Elveonora (talk) 22:01, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Well, unfortunately, he's getting listed. Sorry. And again, that analogy is wrong because Naruto isn't their tailed beast, nor is he inside of them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:03, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
He gets listed, on the same grounds that Naruto requires Kurama to make a Tailed Beast Ball.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
^ Exactly this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:05, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto performs the Tailed Beast Ball himself and has to get the ratio and all. We are talking about a nature transformation here people, Naruto can't mold Yoton chakra--Elveonora (talk) 22:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Except he used it. You need to get that. Your argument has no basis. He got it the same way he gets every other tailed beast related skill. He can't use Tailed Beast Ball without Kurama (he literally needs to be in his jinchūriki state, using the chakra to do so) because it is a Tailed Beast Skill and he cannot use Lava Release without Son. He's still a user. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:11, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
You still don't get it. Naruto got Yoton chakra through chakra transfer technique not as a tailed beast skill. Naruto hasn't inherited an ability to use a new nature.--Elveonora (talk) 22:16, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
All Tailed Beast skills are technically "chakra transfers". So by your logic, Naruto can B cannot use Tailed Beast Balls.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Or any of the techniques created with the aid of their tailed beast's chakra, since they got that chakra "transferred" to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:24, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Elvenora.
Naruto was not listed as a user of TBB until he used it himself, despite the fact that the Nine-Tails used it through him about 300 chapters earlier. He in fact continues to not be listed as a user of the anime only fire and wind whatsits for the same reason. Similarly, Gaara is not listed as a user of Drilling Air Bullet, because Shukaku was performing it through him at the time and he had no conscious role in its performance.
Based on all three pages of chapter 673, the same seems to be happening with Naruto and lava; Goku performs it through Naruto, Naruto does not perform it himself. It's a collaboration, then.
Of course, if people were willing to wait until the whole chapter was available, this question would probably be answered later in the chapter. ~SnapperTo 22:28, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Except here's the problem with that logic. Naruto was unconscious and not in control of himself when he used those prior mentioned Tailed Beast Balls. In this situation, he's fully conscious and using it himself. Same with Gaara and Shukaku. He wasn't conscious when Shukaku preformed Drilling Air Bullet, Shukaku was in control, so obviously he isn't a user. Secondly, Son is not present to use the technique alongside him like in this instance between Gaara and Shukaku, only to lend chakra to him as every single instance of a Tailed Beast Skill prior has been done. Son is in no way collaborating with Naruto. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:30, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
But he isn't using any Yoton, he just holds his ice cream and son goku adds his flavor to it. Naruto used a Fuuton through a toad in the anime, by your logic that makes the toad a Fuuton user--Elveonora (talk) 22:35, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
No, actually, it doesn't because Naruto is not the toad's tailed beast, nor is he inside a toad. Also, anime example, so null and void anyways in regards to how the manga works. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:37, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
He is using Lava Release, or is the giant swirling Lava Rasengan in the giant shuriken not actually there kicking Madara's ass? Also, Naruto sealed inside the toad and thus passing his power to his prison? If yes, then yeah that toad would have Wind Release.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:40, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've made my argument, and pending a translation of Hiruzen's word to get a feedback from TTF, I don't really have anything else to say. Simply put, Son, Roshi and Naruto all get listed with lava, earth and fire in their chakra natures, none get it as kkg. That's my endgame. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:44, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Does that made contradiction?Becose KKG is nin that you have and other cannot learn whithout some equal abilitis, does it matter origin of KKG.Without listed as KKG we can falsely imply that lava relise from Son, Roshi, Naruto can be copied . For example if Mei use Lava nin, and they can copy it, then it`s KKG. Rage gtx (talk) 22:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Why do you emphasize so much that Son Goku's chakra is sealed inside of Naruto, since that is completely irrelevant? Forget that he is a jinchuuriki for a moment, because the way it's been done has nothing to do with "jinchuurikiness". What Naruto did wouldn't be any different than if Son Goku were outside and transferred chakra to Naruto. By your logic the entire alliance are jinchuurikis.--Elveonora (talk) 22:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Except...being a jinchuriki is very important. Like, completely so. As in, this entire discussion wouldn't even be happening if Naruto wasn't a jinchuriki. To argue in that direction means you are grasping at straws. Like seriously Elveonora, I know you're smarter than that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Also, I don't want to be rude, but I literally cannot read what you just said Rage gtx.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:05, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry English isn`t my native language Rage gtx (talk) 23:07, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, good show. Ok then give me moment.
Does that make a contradiction? If a kekkei genkai is a ability that you have and others cannot learn, does it matter the origin? If it isn't listed as a kekkei genkai, we can false imply that lava release from Naruto, Roshi and Naruto can be copied. For example, Mei uses Lava ninjutsu and they can copy it, then it's a kekkei genkai..
Think that is what you were saying, correct?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:16, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Yes thank you.--Rage gtx (talk) 23:20, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Dear God. My whole point is that Naruto would be able to perform the technique even if Son Goku's chakra weren't sealed inside of him. Lets try it this way... Gaara can control sand because he is/was jinchuuriki of Shukaku's. He actually has the power. If sand control were a nature, he would be listed as its user. Naruto on the other hand didn't merge doton and katon, Son Goku did and handled it over to Naruto, no differently than Jugo molding Senjutsu chakra and applying it to Sasuke's Susanoo. I must be speaking German or something (no offense Seel :P) Imagine Son Goku is outside of Naruto's body and uses chakra transfer technique, it would be exactly the same to what happened. The circumstance of Son Goku being inside has no relevance on how it was done, Son Goku's chakra didn't grant Naruto the power to use Yoton--Elveonora (talk) 23:18, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Even IF having Son's chakra has permanently given Naruto the ability to mix fire and earth into lava, he does not know how to use fire and earth, only wind. Son mixed fire and earth and handed Naruto lava, Naruto did not at any point create fire or earth. Fire and earth are regular natures, which are not acquired through genetics or chakra, but trough training, which Naruto has not done. He is not a user of either by any means, even if he is a lava user by proxy now. Could we not list him as a Lava Release user without listing him as users of the component natures until he actually learns how to create them?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Another sane individual, I thought we've died out--Elveonora (talk) 23:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
@Rage gtx: Neato. I can respond; we actually don't know the answer to that. Lava Release is already found in a bunch of people across what 2 or 3 villages? Can they copy each others techniques? No idea. Lava Release got really confusing really quickly.
@Elvenora, but Son is sealed in him. That is why that argument doesn't work. You can argue all you wish, but as long as Naruto has the tailed beasts in him, their abilities are passed on to him, as they always have been. If Son Goku was next to Naruto and handed him a ball of Lava, you would have a point. But the very fact that it is sealed within him is what ruins that entire argument.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:28, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
We are finally getting somewhere, I think. You say it with too much certainty: "as long as Naruto has the tailed beasts in him, their abilities are passed on to him" that's why I said back there that Naruto may or may not be able to mold Yoton chakra, but that's irrelevant to the done technique. Only once he does it himself should he be listed as a user. You basically jump the gun and list Naruto as a Yoton user before actually having used Yoton himself, because you assume that "he must be able to do so since son goku's chakra should have given him the power, like shukaku did to gaara"--Elveonora (talk) 23:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
No we're not getting anywhere because you still don't get the point. Naruto has all the tailed beasts' chakras inside of him and, unless I'm hallucinating along with every other member of this site, he just used a huge ass lava ball inside his Rasengan, so no jumping the gun was done. He used it. The chakra is inside of him and he used it just like every other jinchūriki does. And. Here's the kicker again. He used it. Like Ultimate said, argue all you want, but that's what happened, so that's what we're listing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 23:35, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
He did use lava, but he didn't use fire or earth, Goku did, so why do we list him as a user of those? For a similar case, a chakra construct of Kushina channeled her chakra chains through Naruto's body (within his mind), yet he isn't considered a user of those, as he shouldn't be. In this case, a chakra construct of Goku channeled his Lava-natured chakra through Naruto's body, the only difference being that this time Naruto added the chakra into his Rasenshuriken. Comparing this incident to Goku just transferring his chakra to Naruto is a valid comparison, because that's all this is - the Goku in this chapter is just a construct of Goku in Naruto's mind formed from when the real Goku transferred chakra to Naruto, no actual fuinjutsu involved. The real Goku is in Madara, this Goku could very well be the same as when Minato and Kushina were inside Naruto, and there's a chance this Goku will also vanish from Naruto's mind once all the chakra is used up, just like Minato and Kushina did. There's simply too much we don't know yet.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:39, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

It's you two who are using a strawman, not me. Naruto has had Son Goku's chakra for how long now, hundred chapters? And has been added as a Yoton (and Katon, Doton) user only recently, without the shuriken being actually him using the Yoton. What a fallacy guys, keep up the good work, truly phenomenal--Elveonora (talk) 23:42, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what the strawman is, but yeah he had Son in him for a while. And? How does that change the fact that we now know he can use Lava Release as Son's jinchuriki?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:44, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
If it is because I said you are now grasping at straws, it's because you are. We know how jinchurki's work. Why is it suddenly different for Naruto?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:45, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Is it because he actually asked for the chakra instead of just taking it like he's been doing before the war?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
Not that it would change anything if that was the reason. Naruto's been asking Kurama politely for chakra ever since they became friends. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 23:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You are still not getting it, I thought you two are more clever. The chapter hasn't even revealed that Naruto (can?) use Yoton, since he hasn't but Son Goku did. What you have done is taken Son Goku using Yoton as evidence that Naruto can despite him having had the chakra all along and that was the evidence for hundred or more chapters, not recent. EDIT: you took phenomenon B as proof for yet to happen phenomenon A, very nice--Elveonora (talk) 23:57, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Show me where in those three pages that Son Gokū used Lava Release. Show me. Show me. Show me. I don't see it. I see Son Gokū agreeing to lend Naruto his chakra and then Naruto using Lava Release. So, show me. Right now. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 00:00, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
Adding this, just for the hell of it. By that logic, Naruto cannot use Tailed Beast Ball. He has had Kurama's chakra since the beginning of the series and it took him 500 something chapters to preform one while conscious. So, your logic = "remove Naruto's Tailed Beast Ball". I think not. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 00:04, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
The question then becomes if it is confirmed that Goku did the nature transformation and then simply handed the pre-made lava chakra to Naruto, will the three natures, or at least fire and earth, be removed from his infobox? Right now, it's just a matter of how you interpret things: either Goku made lava chakra and gave it to Naruto, or Goku gave Naruto normal chakra and Naruto made it into lava. To me, the former makes more sense, because there's no good reason for Naruto to ask Goku for chakra when he has his own and Kurama's massive reserves already, unless he was asking Goku to make lava for him.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:10, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, if it weren't Son Goku doing the nature transformation, Naruto wouldn't have had to ask for the chakra but just do it himself. You two completely misinterpret what's been shown there and you are sysops, that says something about what this place has come to. EDIT: basically what BeyondRed wrote, pretty much what I tried to explain to you two all along. Also Seelentau agrees that Naruto didn't do it as well just in case you are interested--Elveonora (talk) 11:43, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

I also think it was Son who created the lava chakra and handed it down to Naruto who melded it with his Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 11:48, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
See? That already makes at least 4 of us. Basically this is what happened:
  1. Naruto asked for Son Goku's already molded Yoton chakra
  2. Naruto added it to his Rasenshuriken
This is how you sysops misinterpret it:
  1. Naruto asked for Son Goku's chakra
  2. Molded it into Yoton himself by fusing Katon and Doton (which he doesn't even know how to use, but okay)--Elveonora (talk) 11:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
There's also the fact that, if Naruto actually put Wind Release in that jutsu, how could he mold three (fire+wind+earth) or two (lava+wind) natures at the same time without having a kekkei genkai? The only logical answer I can think of is that Son molded the Lava nature and handed it down to Naruto who mixed it with the Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 12:05, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
That isn't even feasible to use 3 different nature transformations (1 advanced and 1 basic) + shape manipulation all in one hand :D to create an advanced nature chakra, one has to use both hands, since one nature is in each, but whatever guys :D I can do nothing but laugh at this fallacy at this point--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

So unless he just stole to chakra from Son, like he did Kurama, he cannot use its abilities, which means, he also cannot use Tailed Beast Ball, correct? Same goes for Killer B. In fact, the only jinchuriki who can use any tailed beast ability is Gaara, because he was the only one who had their tailed beast removed but still demonstrated a ability?

I understand that this is crux of the argument, correct?

Which also brings up the question, if he gets the chakra from the tailed beast inside him, why do you assume he doesn't know how to use it when he had been using tailed beast chakra since the Chunin exams and knows how to mix elemental chakra into his Rasengan since the Zombie Combo Incident?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:21, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

He actually may or may not have inherited the ability to merge Fire and Earth, but we don't know 100% that he did and the whole point is that what he has demonstrated with the shiruken wasn't his own doing, yet.
And no, Killer B can actually use Gyuki's powers, for example Ink Creation is himself spitting ink, not him asking Gyuki in his gut to create and spit the ink for him. If Naruto could use Yoton, he wouldn't need to ask Son Goku for assistance but would have just done it. Also what I posted above about the natures, each hand is required for 1, just like explained by Yamato. It's impossible to use 3 different natures with one hand all at once while even merging two of them + shape manipulation.--Elveonora (talk) 12:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
So your entire thing is that unless Naruto just stood there, took the power from the tailed beast instead of asking for it, which we know he has the power to do as the asskicking of the Nine-Tails proves, he doesn't have the ability to use the technique?
That is by far the stupidest goddamn thing I have ever read you say Elveonora. One that blatenly ignores everything we have seen and what we arleady know for the sole reason to deny a character an ability we KNOW he should have.
Because we know a jinchuriki doesn't HAVE to ask. They can just do it. You think Gaara stood there the entire time he had Shukaku and asked for it's power? The two hated each other and Gaara became an insomniac to avoid having deal with him for as long as possible. Didn't stop Gaara from using sand on his own. You think Naruto asked Kurama could I use Nine-Tails Chakra Mode and wreck the Zetsu army? No, he took that crap and the Nine-Tails by force even told him he was squandering it. Naruto not being a total dick to the friends inside him means he will, as of now, more likely that not ask to use their power as opposed to being "Yo I'm just gonna take your power and you can suck it", like he HAD been doing to Kurama before they made their peace.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:37, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

No, you still misunderstand. Gaara can use sand control, he didn't and doesn't now have to ask some imaginary Shukaku to move it or even use Shuaku's chakra for that matter. It's something he inherited from having had Shukaku inside his body.--Elveonora (talk) 12:44, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

I do not goddamn misunderstand. Before he had Shukaku removed form him he was able to use Shukaku's ability without asking for its permission first. By your logic he wouldn't be using sand at all then because he doesn't have that capability.
Naruto asking his tailed beast for their power instead of taking it himself does not mean he cannot use their power, no matter how much you want to think that, we know from the series otherwise.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:48, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
You cannot just change things we already know of the series because you don't like what happened.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:49, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
And yes, you are driving me up the wall because you keep going back and trying to say we misunderstand your point which is bullshit because all you are doing is trying to take what we already know and screw with it in the smallest ways possible and use it to argue against Naruto having Lava Release. And because I am clearly growing pissed off at this stupid circular argument I am going to go off and cool my head. I will be back in a few hours.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:52, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, you still do misunderstand me. That's what I'm appalling to, Gaara's control of sand didn't require Shukaku's chakra at all. It was something his body inherited from hosting Shukaku. Naruto shouldn't have had to ask or take anything from Son Goku, he should be just able to do it if he could. Basically, if Naruto could do Lava Release, he would have the ability to merge Fire and Earth chakra natures. But what happened on those 3 panels was Son Goku handling molded Lava chakra to Naruto, nothing more.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
And he's still getting listed. I'd suggest we get back on the original topic for this, because Naruto has Lava Release, and no matter how many ways you spin your denial, its getting listed. Now then, once Seel has translated Hiruzen's words and Omni and I can weigh in on those translations about how it relates to Son having/not having a kekkei genkai, my part in this discussion is over. Good day. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 15:16, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

No, Naruto doesn't have Lava Release until he is shown or told so, good day.--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, I didnt want to join this discussion (More like an argument really) but I too would like to know if we're listing Son as a kkg user. However, I realize we wont get to that unless Elveo understands both Ultimate and Fox-Boss.

You see Elveo, you are wrong here. Dead wrong. As a reader, this is what i'm getting from this:
Naruto doesnt get listed as a Lava Release user only b/c he asked Son for his chakra.
  • To refute that, i'll simply say that Naruto doesnt have to ask for the chakra, he simply does. What you dont seem to get is that it's a process, and that process goes like this. Tailed Beast has unique chakra -> Jinch. can utilize that chakra by force or by collaboration. ( And im using Collaboration" very liberally and loosely b/c Collab. has a significant meaning here)
But after that point, you'll argue: "But Naruto hasn't done it himself."
  • Well, none of the Jinchuriki's have technically done it themselves, until after the TB was extracted. And the only one to do that is Gaara. And one important thing about that, that youre missing and leaving to speculation, is that we dont know exactly why that is. It was never explained, but there are many reasonable and logical reasons for that. However, it's still speculatory.
My point to all this? You're leaving a little too much of your argument to things that do not matter at all. The Chakra is inside of him (In the form of Son Goku) and he chose to use it specifically at that moment. You have to realize that by your logic, we wouldnt list Jinchuriki as users of any TB skill/ability until he's proven to do it by himself. That's bullsh*t in my books. --NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)Talk Page-My Contributions 15:46, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

@Koto, you don't understand properly what I'm saying either. So why aren't Konoha 11 listed as Rasengan users? Hypocrisy at its best, because their usage of Rasengan is no different than from Naruto's of Yoton--Elveonora (talk) 15:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

See? You don't agree with him? Obviously its your fault and your misunderstanding, not his. When the Konoha 11 become Naruto's jinchūriki, I will gladly list them as Rasengan users. Until then, your argument is non-existent. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 15:55, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveo. That actually, is a rather easy question to answer b/c these are two different things. The difference is, Naruto's chakra is neither sealed inside of them, nor did they use a rasengan. They supported it, not utilise it themselves.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)Talk Page-My Contributions 15:58, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
But Naruto too has only utilized the Yoton chakra, he didn't make it.--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
Nor does he make the chakra for his Nine-Tails Chakra Mode (B says one has to "shelf" their own chakra to use the Tailed Beast chakra). Nor can he preform a Tailed Beast Ball without being in Tailed Beast Mode (and therefore using Kurama's chakra rather than his own), as confirmed by both B and Gyūki (one must be in Tailed Beast Mode to even attempt to preform it). Nor can he sense negative emotions without using Kurama's chakra. Kurama does all of that. Naruto is still a user of all of those because he is a jinchūriki who can use his Tailed Beast's chakra (or ask for it, as he has numerous times, since the war began, been shown asking Kurama to "throw him some more chakra"). Same difference here. He used Son Gokū's chakra—already present within him—and made a Lava Release Rasenshuriken. He is a user. End of debate. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 23:08, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

That's not the same. You are missing the relevance. When Naruto uses Tailed Beast Ball, he still has to balance the black and white chakras and all of that. Let me use cookies as an example. Son Goku throws Naruto a done cookie. By your logic, that makes Naruto the baker. Had Son Goku thrown him just the dough and Naruto cooked it, he would have had part in the cookie's creation and be a baker. Naruto didn't provide the ingredients for Yoton (Katon and Doton) nor did he bake it (merge the two) and because of that, there's no reason for the natures to be in his infobox. If you can't get something as simple, you are dumber than Naruto, forgive me the honesty. Even simpler, it's the same as this pretty much Scorch Release: Halo Gale Jet Black Arrow Style Zero that by your own definitions and logic makes Naruto an Enton user--Elveonora (talk) 23:29, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

No, it is not at all the same because you're examples don't work. Naruto is not Sasuke's jinchūriki. If Kurama suddenly had the ability to use Enton and Naruto used it, then yes, I'd list Naruto as an Enton user. Do you get it now? You're spitting in the face of everything the series has said about jinchūriki for the wild, out-of-nowhere concept that somehow Son Gokū is collaborating with Naruto to create this Rasenshuriken, when, in actuality, he's doing no different than what Kurama and Naruto have always done when one shares their ability with the other. Same for B and Gyūki. Same for Gaara and Shukaku. Your example on the natures is also unfounded as half of the shinobi alliance pulled Doton out of their asses to use that Earth Wall technique, despite the fact that, at least in the case of the Konoha 11, we've never seen any of them trained in the Earth Release nature. They were just told how to do it and BAM, Earth Release. But all of it comes back to the original argument. Naruto cannot preform ANY of his tailed beast skills without using Kurama's chakra (which Kurama molded himself). That doesn't mean he's not a user. He is. And it is the same here.
Now I'm begging you to drop this asinine, pointless argument that has derailed the entire point of this discussion, which is to determine whether or not Son's Lava Release is a kekkei genkai or not.~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 23:38, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
I don't argue about Naruto's usage of the technique, but his capability or lack thereof to use Katon, Doton and merge the two into Yoton. This is where you make the mistake. Naruto does TBB with Kurama's chakra. Is he a user? Yes he is. But we don't say he has positive black and negative white chakras or whatever, do we? So we can't say he has natures which he doesn't, because even tho you might deny, the Lavashuriken was a collaboration technique. I'm positive Son Goku supplied Naruto with Yoton chakra, Naruto didn't make it by merging Katon and Doton chakras, that's why I argue against having him listed as a user of those natures in the infobox and elsewhere--Elveonora (talk) 23:33, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

So what you're trying to say is Naruto should be listed as a user of Lava Release but not the prerequisite Fire+Earth since (supposedly) Son gave Naruto pure (or premixed) "lava chakra" instead of earth and fire for Naruto to blend himself? --Questionaredude (talk) 00:02, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

That is his argument, unless he decides to change gears once more. The issue I have with that is Yamato's words were he explains there aren't really "advanced natures" as his reasoning requires. Lava has to be a mixture of earth and fire, just as Wood Release is a mixture of water and earth.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:06, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, im going to see if I can finally squash this Elveo. I see, the whole issue is listing Naruto as a nature user. The thing is, we list Naruto as a user of the Lava release user, not b/c he mixed/used it (by himself), but that he used it in general. And it is because of the useage of Lava-chakra that we add the composite elements: Earth and Fire. Again, not because Naruto has those elements of his own, but because the chakra type is technically sealed within him. I assure you, everyone here is fully aware that Naruto cannot use these elements w/o Son Goku, but the fact that he has put the chakra to use combined with the chakra being sealed within him, he is listed as a user of the element specifically and it's composite elements. Now can we get to the matter at hand, please? Was I clear enough so that we can move on? EDIT: Google define - User:A person that uses or operates something.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)Talk Page-My Contributions 00:48, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yep, I'm satisfied at least. Thank you. (Why does Lava Release have THREE variations?) Anyway, I agree that Son's version is a TB Skill while the other two are variations of the KKG. If only we knew what Roshi's chakra nature was prior to him becoming a Jinchūriki... --Questionaredude (talk) 03:15, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm saying Naruto shouldn't be listed as a user of any other nature besides Wind. I see what he did with Lavashuriken no differently from this Scorch Release: Halo Gale Jet Black Arrow Style Zero Son Goku supplied Yoton chakra to Naruto who just used it. Son Goku's chakra being sealed inside of him or not is completely irrelevant. Even if Sasuke were sealed inside of Naruto's gut and supplied him Enton chakra, that wouldn't make Naruto a Katon+? user.--Elveonora (talk) 15:26, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

And that argument gets shot the hell and back because unless Naruto is inside Sasuke (Super Kami Guru: Hhhhhhhha!) then it is not the same, no matter how much you want it to be so.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:29, April 15, 2014 (UTC)
Sasuke inside Naruto you mean. And I still don't get how is their positioning relevant to how the techniques are performed. Even if Naruto were inside of Son Goku's monkey butt or just outside bumping fists with him, the technique would have been executed just the same, so I don't get this fetish of you guys with "inside outside" whatever--Elveonora (talk) 15:41, April 15, 2014 (UTC)
Whichever one makes Naruto happy. (Master Roshi: Schh..ha ha haaaa!) and their positioning is very relevant. When a tailed beast is sealed within a host, that host gains the demon's power, which they use either by taking it (Nine-Tails Chakra Mode) or asking for it (Every time Naruto used Kurama's chakra after they made peace). If Son Goku had physically been next to Naruto to hand him some Lava you would have a point. But it is sealed in him. So all the rules that govern jinchuriki as we know are in play. That is the difference, which has been explained to you. Countless times.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:48, April 15, 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to need an Aspirin if this conversation keeps going in a loop like this. Elve, as I said to you at least three times now (and as TheUltimate just pointed out again) your arguments don't work because none of your examples match a jinchūriki's situation. When tailed beast chakra is inside the host, the host can use it as their own. Killer B flat out says that a jinchūriki will use the tailed beast's chakra entirely (that would include the earth/fire chakra needed to make lava), by shelving their own, but it is still the jinchūriki using the chakra. In fact, that's the entire mechanic behind how the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode works. Are you going to claim, then, that Naruto isn't using that Mode, even though, for the first half of its appearances, he was taking Kurama's chakra against its will? If you're not, then the rest of your argument goes down the toilet from there. Sasuke is not sealed inside Naruto. Therefore the joint Enton-Fūton technique of theirs doesn't even begin to compare properly. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:28, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

Aspirin? I will be in need of a straitjacket once this is over. We are arguing semantics here. This is my problem (from Naruto's article): "After gaining Son Gokū's and Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power, he gained the Lava Release ability as well as Fire Release and Earth Release, which he could add to a new Rasenshuriken" that is completely false, it should say: "Using Son Goku's Lava Release chakra, Naruto could use it for his new Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken" instead. And this is where your jinchuuriki-host/inside-outside fetish fallacy ultimately falls apart, Kurama in the anime used Fire Release against Pain through Naruto, yet we didn't list Naruto as having Fire Release. Why should it be true in reverse?--Elveonora (talk) 17:04, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

In order for a fallacy to fall apart there actually has to be one to begin with. We didn't list him as a user of the Tailed Beast Ball for that occasion either because Kurama was in control, not Naruto. If Naruto was in control of his body then, he would've been listed as a user. Naruto is in control here, he's using the same method he always has to gain tailed beast chakra, and he used a technique with said chakra. The only fallacy is your way of thinking as you have once again changed your argument. Stop grasping for straws. There are none to grasp. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 17:09, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

Suiren Caves

Chapter 568 - Page 10 if not mistaken.

A literal quote by Son Goku: "I am son, beautiful ape, king of the Suiren Caves! I am the sage king of the apes, my name bestowed upon me by the sage of the six paths."

This proves 2 things: A) Son Goku is a sage (self proclaimed, yet if he says it, we must take note of it). It doesn't prove he can use senjutsu, but he's a sage altogether.

B) There is another "Sage location" other than the 3 known one (Snake, Slug and Toad ones), the Ape one. I don't understand why none of this information has been added to the wikia.

Now, I do understand this to be in the "Trivia" area, however it is much more important to be considered trivial. Son Goku is proclaiming to be a sage here, and actually confirms that a colony of "Ape Senjutsu" users exist. Derigar (talk) 23:08, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Suiren Caves might as well be the place where Enma comes from--Elveonora (talk) 12:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
There was a discussion on the Suiren Caves years ago, but I don't remember the result. I think someone said it was just monkey jabber, but as we have no idea if any of it was true we just didn't mention it. could be wrong though.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:25, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't confirm anything. It's a place where he lived as a sage. Do you know what a sage actually is? It's someone who lives alone in caves. Coincidentally, the Suiren Cave is a cave. So no Ape Senjutsu for now. • Seelentau 愛 12:41, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

No one mentioned ape senjutsu, only us documenting suiren cave as an article--Elveonora (talk) 12:43, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

You know what, if you guys have Land of Bean Paste and Land of Sand then you might as well. But if not then I think trivia about it would be enough. Munchvtec (talk) 15:33, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Not mentioning the Suiren Caves, be it monkey blabbering or not, defeats the very purpose of this wikia. Derigar (talk) 16:23, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

"Purpose of this Wiki". I really hate when people throw that around. As if it somehow makes their argument more valid. The Suiren Caves are documented... in this Trivia point. We don't know what the Suiren Cave is (other than a cave), where its at, what its purpose is, or if its just a figment of Son Gokū's imagination. There is no need for an article and no, it doesn't defeat the purpose of this wiki. This wiki is meant to document the series. What we know about Suiren Cave is documented here. If it is ever touched on again (probably not, but who knows), we can make decisions from there, but right now, we only have one haughty statement from a giant Ape. Not enough to do anything with. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:27, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
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