Talk: Six Paths Senjutsu

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Something i thought of

It was stated Kakashi now has the six paths sage power, Naruto does too and I think this power is not based solely on tb/kaguya/juubi chakra because Naruto was not using the tb/kaguya/juubi chakra when he kicked Madara's truth seeking ball away... he was obviously stronger and augmented and so was Sasuke. I think that Sasuke has this power too as it augments everything... attacks too.. being black colored like Raikiri and Chidori. So maybe Sasuke should be added to this page? Mind you only Senjutsu and Taijutsu can hurt Kaguya and Madara, and Sasuke and Kakashi both did so with black raikiri and black chidori, not to mention when he was using Senjutsu Chakra as a 13yr old with CS2 at valley of the end his chidori turned black then too. I think Sasuke is indeed using the same power as Kakashi, which is the same power as Naruto before using the lava rasenshuriken. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:07, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

I noticed some disagreements about this. One person is of the notion that the only reason Senjutsu was stated to be effective was because it cancels out the TSB's YYR effect, while others like me and you are of the notion that it was meant as Senjutsu chakra alone being capable to harm TT jinch. This should get sorted out first. I'm fairly certain that Minato said: "only Senjutsu and physical attacks are effective against a TT jinch" so I think it wasn't meant to refer strictly to the TSB alone, because punching a black orb doesn't make sense--Elveonora (talk) 08:40, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yea, and Kakashi got that power from when Obito impaled Madara, so it is the Six Paths' Senjutsu power. But Sasuke doesn't have this power because he has the sage's chakra in general, but it's still unsure if it's senjutsu or not. I don't have a side to take here. It could very well be senjutsu, or the fact that Sasuke had the Sage's Yin chakra in the hand he formed the chidori with. So maybe Kakshi should be made a user, but idk Riptide240 (talk) 13:16, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

And plus, we don't fully understand what Yin release truly does. Yang Release vitalizes and "breathes life into form". But Yin Release is said to "create form from nothing" so we don't truly understand what that means Riptide240 (talk) 13:43, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke has yet to show all of the powers Hagoromo gave to him. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 15:26, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

It is like I said before, I don't think they need to "transform" to use the Senjutsu. Naruto was not "transformed" when he kicked away the truth seeking ball. Therefor Sasuke most definitely has Senjutsu and Kakashi does too. But it isn't blatant enough for some people to accept I guess. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 17:25, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if anybody noticed...

If you go to chapter 670 on mangapanda page 17, or any website and look at where Hagoromo's talking about splitting up the Juubi, the shot shows the back of Asura's clothing and it shows the seal for the Six Paths Senjutsu Riptide240 (talk) 16:23, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that Hagoromo's back?--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure that out because you can see the water ripples from Asuras water reflection. And it looks like the person is standing Riptide240 (talk) 16:31, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Follow to the next page and you'll see that Hagoromo was revealed to Naruto the event in which he named the Tailed beast. It's Hagoromo's back, most likely. -- Koto^{Talk Page-My Contributions} 16:32, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. considering the speech bubbles talk about said event--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I see, thnx. Plus what are your guys' ideas as to what Asuras inherited powers are. It's killing me and I want to hear some ideas Riptide240 (talk) 16:39, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I think we all know where Elveo stands on the topic. But I too agree with the idea that he likely inherited the SPST, or atleast has some form of jinchuriki status. -- Koto^{Talk Page-My Contributions} 16:42, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Yea but the only thing that confuses me is that Indra inherited a downgraded version of his father's dojutsu. So did Asura directly inherit the ten tails chakra, or a downgraded version like Indra? Riptide240 (talk) 16:45, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Likely.--Koto^{Talk Page-My Contributions} 16:46, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I can 100% say that Ashura didn't inherit this by birth, otherwise his incarnates would be born with it--Elveonora (talk) 16:48, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Yea, so what do you think he inherited from birth? And if it wasn't some form of juubi chakra, then how did he replicate it? And also, his transmigrants got his chairs, not from when he was born, but when he died Riptide240 (talk) 16:51, August 27, 2014 (UTC)Riptide240 (talk) 16:50, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Life force and physical energy. He either was a jinch, or he was gifted chakras from them like Naruto--Elveonora (talk) 16:52, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

OK so one more thing, Hagoromo said that his chakra bloomed through training. So if he already had life force and physical energy, then what kind of chakra bloomed?Riptide240 (talk) 16:55, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

No idea. The point is, that since as you said yourself, Ashura's incarnates receive chakra that he had when he died, that means SPST wasn't part of his own chakra.--Elveonora (talk) 16:59, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

True, thnx guys. I can't wait till somebody clears this up officially for good Riptide240 (talk) 17:03, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

So...

So, the reason Kaguya isn't listed as a user is because technically,the juubis chakra is the catalyst. This would make sense since Kaguya is the ten tails and, technically is its chakra. Otherwise I would've voted her being a user. So, are we still debating on whether or not Hamura is a user? Riptide240 (talk) 15:13, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

The reason neither of them are listed is because we weren't told they were users. We can assume or make logical conclusions that they were, but that's akin to going to a Christian church and asking the pastor to help you summon Lucifer. So yeah. Not listed until Kishimoto explicitly tells us.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 16:05, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

"For the record, I actually support the idea of using reading comprehension, logical conclusions, taking in all information past and present to come up with an answer to a question Kishimoto did not spoon feed us. I am perfectly happy if we are wrong, and more than happy to change information if it is proven wrong" do you?--Elveonora (talk) 18:49, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Yes that is my stance and I stick by it. However, when I make that point, I am basically called a dick who wants this wiki full of unconfirmed bullshit. Mixed signals. You either want to make these conclusions or you don't.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 18:54, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well, call me a hypocrite, but I'm also both for and against "logical conclusions" but not all of them. (And before anyone says I'm all for only my own, then no) I want logical conclusions to be made when they aren't falsifiable, when they are obvious and no other information contradicts them from being true. But I oppose "logical conclusions" such as: "hey, Hamura wears the same clothes as Hagoromo and wields a staf.... TSB/SPS USER CONFIRMED!!!" that's just crazy--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

And when someone points out that Sand appearing with Magnet Release when it has no feasible reason to be there but yet using sand as magnet release is a no no because they were never stated to be connected is perfectly valid and in no way does that sounds crazy to someone who believes sand is magnet release.

I'm sure you see the problem. Now if you care is a different matter.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 19:01, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Of course I care, but the sand might have appeared for the same reasons the other substances did. Just because sand appears with magnet chakra doesn't mean they are connected. Imagine a scenario in which Gyuki gives Naruto a Fire-natured chakra to make Fire Release: Rasenshuriken. Since it was Gyuki who provided the chakra, Ink may have appeared as well. Would you assume the ink is controlled by/related to the fire? No.--Elveonora (talk) 19:08, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm actually more upset at myself that I didn't think you'd continue the argument. le sigh. I don't give a shitfuck about Magnet Release I was using it as a point that someone can see and believe they are right about Magnet Release just as you see and believe you are right about Six Paths Sage Technique. And based on the results of Magnet Release why on earth shouldn't that also apply here?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 20:25, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Because there's no "what ifs" in this case. If Kaguya's jinchs can use SPST because of her, then she can also use it. Just like Naruto can sense negative emotions, so can Kurama, since it comes from it to begin with. Also we list SPST as a parent to Truth Seeking Ball and she used one. From what we know, TSB indeed requires SPST, since we didn't see Naruto, Madara or Obito use it prior to getting SPST--Elveonora (talk) 20:29, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

We technically don't even know that. Remember, Obito used a Truth Seeking Ball when he wasn't using Six Paths Sage Technique. They could totally be linked. They could also be completely different. We actually don't know, but we assumed such due to Naruto. So yeah. I'd be more than happy to it a trivia note, but I feel you'd object to that.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 20:47, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Though that also bring the question; why does my opinion even matter?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 20:50, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me?--Elveonora (talk) 12:42, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly as it sounds. Why does my opinion even matter? What is exactly stopping you from hitting the edit button and adding Kaguya, you seem convinced she's a user. The only response I have is "It is very possible, but it was never stated". So why does my opinion matter?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:06, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't feel good about disobeying you. Hell, I can't even piss unless I'm allowed to. Also Foxie would just undo and protect the page anyway. For what you mentioned earlier about mentioning it in trivia, then yes please. If that's all I can get from this, then so be it, I'm gonna settle for leftovers. I'm just afraid Cerez will remove it as "too trivial for a trivia" or "speculation" whatever.--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I added cuz it makes sense. If any fox has some problem... she/he can come at me.Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 14:58, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya shouldn't be added for a very clear reason. All users of Six Path Sage Technique with the exception of Naruto have been Jūbi jinchūriki. Kaguya is not a jinchūriki. She is the damn Jūbi. And this has been made clear numerous times, and I'm quite frankly getting sick of it. You're outnumbered, Elveonora, so don't try to kick up more shift without new evidence.--Reliops (talk) 18:59, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Son Goku's jinchuurikis can use Lava Release, because of their Tailed Beast, so Son Goku uses Lava Release. TT jinchuurikis can use SPST because of Kaguya, but Kaguya can't use SPST. I'm not following the logic.--Elveonora (talk) 19:23, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Not following the logic? Naruto used SPST without the TT chakra, the SPST isn't dependent on Kaguya or the TT's chakra, as shown with Naruto. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:27, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The only problem here is that we put TSB as derivate from SPST. So if one can use the former, he/she has to have the latter. Either we cancel SPST as the parent jutsu of TSB or we put Kaguya as SPST user.-- JOA20 19:31, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@WindStar, then how do you explain people like Obito and Madara starting to use TSB after they became TT jinch?--Elveonora (talk) 19:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@JOA20, I've already brought that topic up on this talk page (SPST & TSB). @Elveo, how do you explain Naruto using the TSB without becoming the TT jinchuuriki? WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:35, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Throwing a question back at me doesn't answer the prior question though. Both of these have to be explained--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. That's what we're talking about on the topic I brought up (SPST & TSB). @JOA20 and @Elveo, let's take this issue there. I don't want to edit two topics on the same talk page at the same time. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:38, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

SPST should be listed as related to TSB, not as its parent jutsu.--Reliops (talk) 21:50, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

SPST & TSB

Credit to @MERCURIOUS for pointing this out, but in Chapter 682, before Kaguya was hit with the Reverse Sexy Harem, her back was shown. No SPST markings, yet she could use a TSB. So that means that the SPST isn't a parent technique of the TSB and the the latter isn't a derived technique of the former, right? WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 18:52, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Aye. How could I not notice that? Maybe there's another scene where we can see her back even more clearly? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:05, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think that was it. Her back was shown, there were no marking, and many of us, including myself, you, @Elveo, @Foxie and @TU3 didn't notice that... @MERCURIOUS has a good eye then... WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:14, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Obito didn't have markings when he formed TSB staff against Madara either. Any relation between the marking and SPST has actually never been confirmed, other than Naruto's back being drawn when Madara was explaining what Naruto and Sasuke had received, so we made such a connection, but said connection may be wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 19:19, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't I somewhere state that when Madara called Naruto out on the SPS, his back was shown but without showing the TSBs? I'm pretty sure I did... hm, let's wait for other opinions. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:20, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, I already know of Obito's case, but the reason why I didn't bring it up was because one, he had the SPST before using the TSB, whereas Kaguya used the TSB w/o clear evidence of using the SPST, and two, Obito did absorb chakra from Madara's SPST to use the TSB. But the reason why I think the SPST isn't a parent is because of Kaguya, she used the TSB without it. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:24, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, There's also the possibility that the pattern on the back is actually the pattern of the sealing technique that Madara and Obito used to become TT jinchuuriki and Obito later used on Naruto to seal TB chakra into him. The only reason we are having these stupid doubts is because Kishimoto explains shit so poorly.--Elveonora (talk) 19:27, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, I think Seelentau prefers @Seele or @Tau. All users of the SPST have used Hagoromo's chakra and have the markings (Naruto, Obito and Madara). Yet Kaguya can use a TSB without the SPST marking. Kishi needs to work on explaining things. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:36, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The back issue was mentioned. Quite a few times actually.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 19:32, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

She can use the TSB without the SPST. No markings on her back. This is just confusing. What do we do? I think we remove the assumed connected the SPST and TSB have. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:40, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Or the marking has nothing to do with SPST. This is the main problem, we don't even freaking know what SPST is--Elveonora (talk) 19:41, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, maybe the markings have nothing to do with the SPST, but why would Kishi put emphasis on the markings on Naruto's back when Madara was pointing out the upgrade Naruto had? Kishi is clearing playing all of us here. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:47, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The best course of action here is to remove the assumed connection between SPST and TSB.-- JOA20 19:43, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't have an issue with the connection between the SPST and TSB, until Kaguya uses a TSB then all of these arguments of the TSB's elements, whether or not she is a user of the SPST come from every one. Kishi has to explain things a lot better. As of right now, she is not a user of the SPST, and there are no markings on her back to give support to that, and she can use the TSB, so we should remove the connection between the SPST and TSB to maintain some consistency. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:45, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

And Obito used TSB without SPST. There aren't anything to prove the connection between them.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 19:47, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The fishy thing though, as pointed out by Seel is that Obito formed TSB before he started absorbing Madara's chakras.... YET Madara later commented that Obito had managed to steal even power of Sage Transformation when Obito used TSB staff to deflect Madara. The statement doesn't make sense if Obito didn't absorb Madara's chakras to form the staff--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

That's why I tried not to bring up Obito's case. Technically, Obito unlocked the SPST before using the TSB, and he absorbed chakra from Madara's SPST to use a TSB. But then Kaguya uses a TSB w/o proof of using the SPST to screw everything up. Is she a user? Should we remove this assumed connection? WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 19:53, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo gave his eyes (Rinnegan) to Sasuke and his body (SPS) to Naruto. Here's the question: is the Senjutsu of the Six Paths a result of Hagoromo's chakra or Kaguya's chakra? WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 20:31, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Wuut ? Why do people base this stuff on some markings... madara/obito/kaguya had the power of both yin and yang... naruto and sasuke got only half and half.

Madara even said "you only have half of what i have... i have both halfs of power"

Its only logic to assume that Kaguya and everyone else who has both half of hagaromo power has sage of six path senjutsu Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 20:40, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Windstar, if chakra works like DNA, then Hagoromo's chakra is 50% that of Kaguya's. Chakra that Hagoromo has came from Kaguya, since she is his mother, not to mention he later became her jinchuuriki. So the question is nonsensical imo, Kaguya's chakra is everything Hagoromo's is, but more.--Elveonora (talk) 20:56, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

In Naruto's case, his SPS was a result of receiving Hagoromo's chakra and not Kaguya's. But I figured my question was questionable. So, @Elveo we're back to this question: What is the Six Paths? All we know is that the Senjutsu of the Six Paths = The Sage of Six Paths' senjutsu/Hagoromo's senjutsu. From that equation, it looks like it's the Senjutsu of the Sage of Six Paths. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 21:29, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Whoever Hagoromo and Hamura's father was, he didn't have chakra to our knowledge, considering only Kaguya ate the fruit/incarnated with Shinju. So Hagoromo's chakra should be a watered-down version of Kaguya's. To me it's logical at least that if lesser chakra of Kaguya's (Hagoromo's) has Six Paths Senjutsu, then so should greater chakra (Kaguya's). After all, Ashura + Indra's chakras = Hagoromo's, so Hagoromo and Hamura's chakras = Kaguya's. Therefore if Six Paths Senjutsu is in 50% of Kaguya's chakra, it's guaranteed to be in 100%--Elveonora (talk) 21:30, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, In Hagoromo's case, the 50% of Kaguya's chakra given to him was the Rinnegan/Sharingan and the Senju/Uzumaki's chakras. After all, senjutsu is just drawing natural energy and mixing it with one's own chakra, I don't think Hagoromo inherited senjutsu. Plus, I'm sure Hagoromo with the chakra he has can create his own techniques (like Minato with the Rasengan), just because Hagoromo has a technique, doesn't mean Kaguya automatically has it. The other 50% was, in Hamura's case, the Byakugan, (and maybe the Dead Bone Pulse) considering we don't know the full extent of Hamura's powers. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 21:39, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, I think we strayed off the original topic a bit. Disregarding Kaguya's usage of SPST, what should be figured out first is the relation between SPST and TSB and if the latter requires the former or not--Elveonora (talk) 21:40, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Probably not. Guys like TU3 and Ten Tailed Fox think Kaguya having the SPST is jumping to conclusions, so the assumed connection between the SPST and the TSB should be removed. Meaning no derived or parent technique section in their articles, respectively. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 21:43, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I want someone explain first why becoming TT jinchs gives SPST if TT doesn't have it and why it gives TSB, the relaton of TSB to SPST and how come Naruto's got SPST and TSB without being TT jinch--Elveonora (talk) 21:45, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

About Obito's case, he absorbed Madara's chakra, created a TSB then created a Chakra arm to absorb the TB Chakra for Naruto. I fail to see what you meant earlier about creating TSB then absorbing chakra from Madara.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:49, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

If you observe the scene closely, Obito seemingly first forms TSB staff and only then starts absorbing Madara's chakras--Elveonora (talk) 21:51, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The flickers resulted from the Chakra Arm, not from absorbing Madara's Chakra.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:53, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Then why did Madara notice Obito absorbing his chakras so late?--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a real answer for your question. The pages were dictated to Obito. And in case he really created the TSB before absorbing Madara's Chakra, then this is a further proof that TSB aren't connected to SPST. Obito wasn't in the said mode anymore, yet he was able to use TSB.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 22:01, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

It should be clear by now that SPST is related to TSB but not its parent jutsu seeing as Kaguya, who is not a jinchūriki and whose powers predate SPST, was a user of TSB.--Reliops (talk) 22:15, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

That is most likely. But honestly who knows, I am more willing to just make Truth-Seeking Balls related to Six Paths Senjutsu and leaving it at that. It's not wrong technically and leaves wiggle room.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 11:51, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

I'm cool with SPST & TSB being related. As long as they are not parent-derived techniques of each other. WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 13:47, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

I'm cool with that as well, but didn't Sasuke say that Naruto's TSB were comprised of the "Six Paths Sage Chakra" (六道の仙人チャクラ, Rikudō no Sennin Chakura)? I only say this because, one, its on the article already, and two, it shows a direct correlation between the TSB and SPST (i.e., six paths sage chakra comes from SPST). Riptide240 (talk) 02:58, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

No. He didn't. He told Naruto to form a sealing technique that comprised the Six Paths Senjutsu chakra. Nothing more. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 06:13, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Na, Riptide is right. You even added it to the TSB article yourself, Fox. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

It's logical. A Sage Technique uses Sage Chakra. A Six Paths Sage Technique uses Six Paths Sage Chakra, we just don't know what six paths refers to.--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

So is Kaguya a user of the SPST or not? If she isn't, then the TSB shouldn't be the derived technique of the SPST, and the latter not the parent technique of the former. If she is a user of the SPST, list her as a user, OK? Nothing is happening. Isn't it contradictory to say she isn't a user of the SPST, can use a huge TSB, yet list the SPST as the parent technique of the TSB (and the latter derived from the former)? If she is a user, then put it there. If she isn't, then remove the assumed connection between the SPST and the TSB. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 15:51, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto and Sasuke used Chibaku Tensei, yet we don't add Tendo to their techniques, do we? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:16, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I'm torn because on one side, she can fly, create TSB, and regenerate. All signs of the technique. On the other side, she is the TT, she lacks the markings, etc. So idk on this one Riptide240 (talk) 16:31, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Tau .... So should I contact a sysop to remove the TSB link in the SPST's infobox and vice versa or is Kaguya a user of the SPST? --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 16:39, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Why exactly do we state the SPS and the TSB to be related again...? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:56, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Because all users who have used the SPS have used the TSB. But Kaguya has used a TSB before being confirmed as a SPS user. Combined with the fact that her back does not have the SPS markings, that is what is making things confusing. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 16:59, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

And that's... all? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:00, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hilariously, pretty much. This started when @Elveo claimed Kaguya had the SPS after @Foxie made the SPS a parent technique of the TSB. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 17:04, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I think that what's being said here is that while the SPST=TSB, TSB don't always equal SPST Riptide240 (talk) 17:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Kind of. What's being said here is that the SPS is not a parent technique of the TSB, and the TSB is not a derived technique of the SPS. Sure, all SPS users have access to the TSB, but at the same time, all SPS users have the appropriate seal on their backs composed of the Rinnegan and nine tomoe separately. Kaguya's back is bare. Also, here is another case that the TSB and SPS aren't connected: Obito. He used a TSB without the SPS. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 17:11, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, but the Obito case is understandable since he absorbed SPST to do it. And even if you disagree with that, its possible that this came from his previous status as its jinchuriki. Riptide240 (talk) 17:14, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Also, some want to assume the SPS is reliant on the TT chakra, and Kaguya is the TT, therefore she has it... but Naruto was able to use the SPS and TSB w/o the TT chakra. He was able to use it due to Hagoromo. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 17:17, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Well, everyone is on the same page right now and I don't want to change that, but Naruto did replicate the TT chakra since he had all bijuus chakra plus senjutau. But the Kaguya case is ridiculous. No doubt Riptide240 (talk) 17:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Which brings us to this question: What is the Senjutsu of the Six Paths? Is it Hagoromo's senjutsu or Kaguya's senjutsu? --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 17:24, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I think theyre all connected. I think that Hagoromo's senjutsu refers to his use of the TT natural energy. And since Kaguya is the TT, you see where I'm going with that. Riptide240 (talk) 17:31, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu chakra is made from drawing in natural energy and mixing it with one's own chakra. You don't "inherit" that trait (like how some wanna say Hagoromo inherited natural energy or senjutsu chakra from Kaguya) and you don't need the TT to learn how to draw in natural energy. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 17:51, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I never said that. I said I think he got senjutsu chakra from the TT when he hosted it, not that he inherited it. Also, even if you don't need the TT, it's possible Hagoromo didn't know it existed until he got its chakra. Also, we saw him using TSB before hosting the TT, so it's possible his didn't use natural energy until he got the TT chakra. Lastly, what do you think Asura inherited if it couldn't have been the SPST since you can't inherit senjutsu. Riptide240 (talk) 17:57, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Think logically. Madara said Naruto got Six Paths Sage Technique. From then on, Naruto could use Truth Seeking Ball. If Truth Seeking Ball didn't require Six Page Sage Technique, then Madara would have said that Naruto got Truth Seeking Ball. My point is that Naruto got 2 new techniques, Six Paths Sage Technique and Truth Seeking Ball, yet Madara put emphasis only on the former, meaning the latter comes with the former.

For the rest, @Seel, it was you who said TSB uses Six Paths Sage Chakra and Six Paths Sage Chakra is most likely the kind of chakra that Six Paths Sage Technique uses, thus obvious relation--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, I think that SPST always comes with TSB, but TSB doesn't always entail SPST because of the Kaguya situation. Riptide240 (talk) 18:12, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Just a reminder, there's not even 100% guarantee the back thing has anything to do with SPST--Elveonora (talk) 18:16, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Then why did the picture show the back when Madara mentioned it since you like to keep bringing us back to that moment. Its obvious the back is the mark of the SPST. Obito did not possess it until he hosted the TT and neither did Madara. Same with Naruto and his replication of its chakra through the bijuus chakra and senjutsu. Riptide240 (talk) 18:23, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Just because Naruto from behind was shown, it was assumed the back has anything to do with it. As I mentioned elsewhere, the back thing might as well be the pattern of the fuuinjutsu that Madara and Obito used--Elveonora (talk) 18:28, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Then why did Naruto possess it if he never used a sealing jitsu to do it? Riptide240 (talk) 18:31, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Who knows? Back to the topic, we know that Kaguya is a user of the TSB. So Kaguya has the SPST? If she does, then just put it there. But no, some don't want to, and yet the fact that the SPST is a parent technique to the TSB and the latter a derived technique of the former is still there. See how confusing that is? If she can use the TSB and not the SPS, then why are the links of the techniques still in each others' infoboxes? Unless she can use the SPS. But there's a dispute there. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 18:34, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I say just add her as she's the only exception to the rule, which means there's more evidence that she's a user than that they're not related. Riptide240 (talk) 18:42, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Ritpide240, Obito sealed Shukaku and Gyuki's chakras into Naruto, remember?--Elveonora (talk) 18:44, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Never mind that, @Fox-boss has already made an "executive decision" and listed them as related jutsu to each other. As shown in Kaguya's case, she doesn't need the SPS to use the TSB, therefore the former isn't a parent technique of the latter. In her case, since she is the TT, her chakra alone should suffice for usage of the TSB. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 18:50, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Cool Riptide240 (talk) 18:47, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Even though it's most likely wrong, I suppose it's the best course of action for the time being until we know more. And it's gonna save us all the headaches.--Elveonora (talk) 18:51, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Others may need to use the SPST to use the TSB, but not Kaguya. Like I said, her chakra alone should suffice. Just like others may need Hagoromo's Rinnegan, her chakra from being the TT jinchuuriki, and proximity to the moon to awaken her Rinnegan, but she had the thing from the get go, since there was no moon in her time. She is the only special case, only she ate the fruit. And yes, it will save us all the headaches.--WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 20:36, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The back mark is definitely the mark of the SPST. It was shown when Madara mentioned the term, as was Sasuke's eye shown when Madara said Rinnegan. The important part is that the TSB were not shown when Madara used the SPST term. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 00:18, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Except they were, as the staff. And we don't know the context of why the back was shown. Madara said SPST bloomed in Naruto or whatnot and the back was shown. It did so by Naruto having received chakras of all Tailed Beasts, figure the back was shown because of that, to put emphasis that Naruto had received the remaining chakras from Obito, the pattern may be the fuuinjutsu used--Elveonora (talk) 10:14, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

The staffs weren't clearly visible and no one would know that he made them from TSBs. And we know the context of why the back was shown: Because of Madara's words. Jesus Christ, do you know how to put things in context? Or do you think Sasuke's left eye isn't a Rinnegan, but was shown for teh lulz while Madara said that Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:27, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

You misunderstand. My opinion is that the back wasn't necessarily shown to show what Naruto had awakened, but how he did so. As I said, the back pattern may be the fuuinjutsu, not "symbol of six paths senjutsu" whatever--Elveonora (talk) 11:30, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

And Sasuke's eye was shown to show how Sasuke awakened his Rinnegan in his asshole? That's how it sounds, basically. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:15, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Its useless arguing it. Context clues escape him entirely. Apparently he missed that class. In any case, it is the marking of the Six Paths Senjutsu and that's the end of it: same as the markings around Naruto's eyes are a sign of his Sage Mode. TSB isn't a derivative technique, because, as Elve so aptly pointed out, the markings weren't present on Obito when he formed a Gudōdama after absorbing Madara's chakra, and Kaguya didn't have the SPS herself, evident by the markings being absent from her. Any further argument on this without new evidence won't yield any changes so, @Elve, I highly suggest you let it rest and move on to something else. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 14:21, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even arguing anything, I was just stating a possibility, no need to get all hostile.--Elveonora (talk) 15:36, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Method of obtaining

Should we make it clearer that someone can't just obtain this power by gaining some chakra from all nine tailed beasts and learning senjutsu? Because the TSB are made of Six Paths Sage chakra so it's pretty obvious that this form isn't just something that anybody can obtain Riptide240 (talk) 14:36, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

I actually wanted to make a topic about this, but seeing as there already is one, let me ask you guys this: Where in the manga was is stated that the SPS Naruto obtained comes from his meeting with Hagoromo? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:08, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Nowhere as far as I know, which is why I'm starting to think Hagoromo might not have actually given neither Naruto nor Sasuke any power to begin with. Naruto obtained the last pieces of the bijū from Obito, and Sasuke was given some of Hashirama's chakra.--Reliops (talk) 12:32, September 14, 2014 (UTC)

No i dont think hagoromo has nothing to do with obtaining this technique because if naruto just have all the tailed beast and sage mode then i guess his pigmentation would remain and even if sasuke got his chakra from hashis dna which he didnt because it stated that it was only the study of his cells, his eyes would be a normal rinnegan and not a unique one.

Hagoromo said he had given power to Naruto and Sasuke though. And I'm sure he wasn't referring to palm tattoos, since they have lost those--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, September 14, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo gave them the tattoos and that is "giving them power". If or not it was permanent is another matter. It is entirely possible that Hagoromo only gave the two the Yin and Yang Powers and the Six Paths Senjutsu and the Rinnegan were extras that showed up from their various methods of revival.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:37, September 14, 2014 (UTC)