Talk:Six Paths Senjutsu

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Naruto

There have been arguments if he still has it or not, but after watching The Last, it's more likely he doesn't. In the movie, he had to use Shadow Clones as trampolines to propel himself through the air, if he could fly, he would have done so. He doesn't fly anywhere in Gaiden either, he runs.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 09:27, July 24, 2015 (UTC)

Bump--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:45, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

If he lost SPS we need some actual statment or confirmation that he lost it because unlike arm or eye this technique not so obvious thing(since it is turn off'ble), so until proven otherwise he has it. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 12:50, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Cross-shaped pupils with no Sage Mode pigmentation (Gaiden, Boruto trailer)?--JOA²⁰12:52, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Yet all his Jesus powers like TSB, Flight and Healing/Reviving are gone and so is the marking on his back.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:54, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

TSBs can be lost, as we know. The problem is that Six Paths Sage Mode – Naruto's version of Six Paths Senjutsu – is the cross-shaped pupils with no pigmentation around the eyes, as hinted by the latest databook. Not the markings on his back (for all we know, it just means that one has all the tailed beasts' chakras).--JOA²⁰12:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Not sure how literary it's supposed to be taken, but in the opening of The Last, the back thingy appears on Hagoromo after he becomes Jinchuuriki, it wasn't there before (can be seen in manga too when he and Hamura are battling mom, no back thingy) so yes, it probably has to do with the Tailed Beasts, but in that case... since it's gone... does that mean Naruto no longer has their chakras? I mean, no other Tailed Beast besides Kurama has been seen inside of Naruto post chapter 699.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:06, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe. People talk of Naruto's Chakra Mode in Gaiden as a Kurama-only Six Paths Sage Mode.--JOA²⁰13:14, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

He doesn't seem to have any of the Six Paths Senjutsu powers in that form though. That would suggest pretty much what most people think (but Seel disagrees with) that chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts are needed for Six Paths Senjutsu.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:24, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

If that's really the case, then I'm almost positive that chakra doesn't just disappear for good, they resurface eventually unlike the TSB's. Either way, on both fronts, Naruto would still have SPSM.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 13:33, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

One reason Naruto didn't use Six Paths Sage Mode in the last may be the fact the anime had yet to reach that point.--JOA²⁰13:56, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

They kept Sasuke's Rinnegan, Kakasi is Hokage etc. not to mention they showed Kaguya and stuff.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 14:00, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Right, forgot about that. But it's difficult to decide he lost SPST/M until he or someone else say it.--JOA²⁰14:02, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

technique?

Did the databook really list this as one? Isn't Six Paths Senjutsu a brand of techniques, like Ninjutsu?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 00:13, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the databook uses this term at all. Or at least, I can't remember... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 00:15, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

Nagato and Hamura

The Jin no Sho article about the Chibaku Tensei states that it is "a sealing technique invoked by those who manipulate the Rikudo Senjutsu". This is the first sentence, only after that it differs between the normal CT and the SPCT. Based on this, Nagato and Hamura are able to use Rikudo Senjutsu. Could you guys edit the articles accordingly? :3 • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:30, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure about Nagato since he hasn't shown any signs of the SPS use, although I'd agree with Hamura's use because of him being shown with the TSBs in the movie. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 11:51, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Well, this would complicate things. Aside from Nagato, Sasuke would also be a user. Is there no other way the text can be interpreted? Because that sounds like the biggest nonsense to come out of that book yet.--BeyondRed (talk) 12:00, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't be the first mistake coming from that book... Also, to me it's more of two techniques sharing same pages, since both techniques and users are seperated with "/"(地爆天星/六道　地爆天星 and Nagato/Naruto, Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura). --JouXIII (talk) 12:33, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

I think we had this topic before or something similar.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:35, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

No @Seelentau if i remember correctly FF-Suzaku translation this line was about Six Paths Chibaku Tensei - wich means, this particular jutsu is from SPS, if my memory is correct then Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is not Dojutsu but SPS justu. Rage gtx (talk) 12:49, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

I found it here:

"Chibaku Tensei / Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" has a single entry, and lists "Nagato / Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura" as its users. It's a kekkei genkai sealing jutsu.

Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the power of Yin and Yang. It turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. This forms a heavenly body in the sky that can act as a prison for even a tailed beast. The section in the bottom left describes how the moon was the result of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, and that so much chakra was contained within that it turned into a gigantic sattelite. It also describes it as a giant sealing stone (封印石 "Fuinseki"), which implies that Kishimoto took some inspiration from those giant "sealing stones" you sometimes see -- the big boulders with the kanji inscribed on them, usually with the ceremonial ropes adoring them. - by FF-Suzaku from http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:150619 Rage gtx (talk) 12:52, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Whenever I do something like this, you can be sure that I checked every available translation/discussion beforehand. So yeah, what Suzaku did was paraphrase it, it's not a 1:1 translation. The first sentence of the main body (suzakun's third sentence) is 六道仙術を操る者だけが発動できる封印術。, which means A Sealing Technique only those who manipulate the Six Paths Senjutsu can invoke.. Only afterwards it says that two versions exists, the normal CT and the SPCT used by power of Yin and Yang owners. As for the separation of the users, that's true. Nagato is a user of CT, N&S and H&H are users of SPCT. But we knew that anyway. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:47, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

So Nagato, Hamura and Sasuke are users of SPS based on the databook's explanation of Chibaku Tensei? Ay dios, that's not going to sit well with some. XD So how much more info from the databook has been overlooked? ★WindStar7125 16:53, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Yes. And no idea, but it will be released in June in Germany, Imma buy it and see if I can find anything interesting, then check the original for it. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:59, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Then I guess we seriously don't know what SPS is then. Because judging from the article, SPS is the transformation, but neither Sasuke or Nagato went through that transformation, yet apparently have SPS anyway. So isn't it clear that SPS isn't the transformation Naruto, Obito, Madara, Hagoromo and presumably Hamura went through, then? ★WindStar7125 17:22, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Well there is still manga fact that Nagato don't have SPS - Preta path turned into frog from Naruto's Senchakra if Nagato had SPS(or anything with Senjutsu) that would not have happened. Rage gtx (talk) 17:24, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

@Tau, also, what would we do with the infobox pic? Since now, SPS apparently isn't the transformation itself, but the infobox implies so with it's picture... ★WindStar7125 17:30, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we should hold on to avoid, some edit wars, this actually may be one of Databook slip-up since i sure that in manga Madara called Naruto power as SPS and counterparted it to Sasuke's Rinnegan, now whole his remark seems strange and poitless if Sasuke had both powers. Rage gtx (talk) 17:36, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Nagato's path successfully absorbed all of Naruto's Senjutsu, only when Naruto started absorbing more Senjutsu, as much as her could did it turn the path into stone. Nagato was simply not able to deal with the sudden mass abundance of Senjutsu. Hamura having it is kind of not a shocker at all. Nagato having it is acceptable I guess. QuakingStar (talk) 18:21, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Yes but after that Nagato remarked that senjutsu seems quite dangerous power - as if he never had dealt with it. Now if he knew it all along this seems rather stupid Rage gtx (talk) 18:32, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

As stated, Madara said that Naruto got SPS while Sasuke Rinnegan. He didn't say Sasuke got both SPS and Rinnegan, while Naruto just SPS, not to mention Naruto was used to demonstrate SPS, not Sasuke.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 18:43, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Whenever I think things have settled, something like this shows up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:27, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Well, even if the sentence only refers to the SPCT, it would still mean Sasuke and Hamura got it. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:16, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Well in Sasuke/Naruto's case one who made Yin/Yang seal was Hagoromo, isn't it like when Konoha 11 used Naruto's rasengans? Rage gtx (talk) 09:19, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

I would say Hagoromo kinda gifted the technique to them, meaning they didn't have to be SPS users themselves to use it, the seals even disappeared afterwards and returned back to Hagoromo's palms.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 09:47, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Does the databook article imply the Rinnegan is in any way responsible for the Six Paths variant? The shared page has the kekkei genkai classification, but that could refer to the Deva Path's variant. If the Six Paths version does require the Rinnegan and/or Six Paths Senjutsu, it could be reasoned that Hagoromo himself contributes both as he's the one who hands out the seals, or that Naruto contributes one and Sasuke the other. That would still imply that Hamura has senjutsu though, which really isn't far-fetched at all.--BeyondRed (talk) 10:42, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Why would Six Paths Senjutsu refer to the transformation? We have the term 'Six Paths Sage Mode' for that no? As far as the regular versions go, Senjutsu=techniques, Sage Mode=state. Logically, the same would apply to the Six Paths versions. D.Phoenix (talk) 05:02, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

It is strange that we treat Six Paths Senjutsu as a technique rather than a type of technique. If anything, it should go in a character's "unique traits" section, but arguably so could regular senjutsu since the databook treated it like one.--BeyondRed (talk) 09:29, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

It appears after this latest episode "Hamura Chakra" is just another variant of "Six Paths Chakra/Senjutsu". Leads us to question what Hinata gained when she was given Hamura's chakra when you think about it. All nature types for Hinata? As for Nagato, he never seemed to use Senjutsu at any point, but then again, he never genuinely awakened the Rinnegan, just honed it, which could be why he never displayed Six Paths Senjutsu. Shock Dragoon (talk) 12:20, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Yeah, the 4th databook has no section in the techniques chapter for SP Senjutsu; it has the SP Sage Mode and SP Ten-Tails Coffin Seal. Six Paths Senjutsu comes from Madara's words right? Any chance that was a mis-translation?D.Phoenix (talk) 17:47, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Nope. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:49, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Right, my bad, just realized I phrased the question incorrectly. SPS was in the databook. Does Six Paths Senjutsu refer to the transformations on this wiki because of Madara's words? D.Phoenix (talk) 17:59, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

When that chapter first came out, before we knew about Six Paths Sage Mode, this page was created under the name "Six Paths Sage Technique". It was eventually changed to Six Paths Senjutsu to be consistent with regular senjutsu, but the page remained a technique page rather than a classification. Madara's transformation is actually called "Six Paths Sage Transformation" a couple of times in the databook, but it didn't get an entry in the technique section so not much was ever done about it here.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:09, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Where was Madara's form called Senninka? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:13, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

It's in the entry on Lightning Dispatch and I think one other place, but I can't remember where exactly.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:36, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, it's called Rikudo Senninka there, but I think it's not Six Paths Sage Transformation, but Sage of Six Paths-ification. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:29, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

So bottom line is that this article needs a bit of revising since Six Paths Senjutsu does not refer to the transformation/state? I thought Obito's and Madara's transformations do not have a proper name. Characters have only said that the two Ten-Tails Jinchuurikii became like Hagoromo, and the databook only had a section for the sealing technique.D.Phoenix (talk) 20:28, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Dunno if there's a bottom line when the series' logic failures are bottomless... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:44, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Then why don't we make an article or sub-section for it then @Seelentau? You have all the viz colored raws and the db's so you could solve any dispute right?? It's a good thing you're on this wikia.. OrganioDinosaur is a good help too though she isn't on here.. QuakingStar (talk) 22:42, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Just realized Nagato does not have SPS Chakra, he like Sasuke has Six Paths Chakra thanks to the Rinnegan which also grants all Natures plus yin, yang, and yinyang. Right? QuakingStar (talk) 00:02, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

If Hamura actually posses Six Paths Senjutsu then doesn't Toneri and possibly Hinata? Considering Toneri reawakened Hamura's chakra and obtained the Tenseigan as well as the ability to use Truth-Seeking Balls? Something that so far has only been seen in Six Paths Senjutsu users? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:32, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Thing is, the databook also says that the TSB blossom behind those who achieved the SPST... and none of the guys discussed here have TSB, aside of Hamura. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:08, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Is there anything to indicate that Hamura is really a user? Because if you see by this databook information, "sealing technique invoked by those who manipulate the Rikudo Senjutsu", may well have been Hagoromo using Six Paths Senjutsu to invoke Chibaku Tensei, and Hamura can simply have contributed with the Six Paths Yin Power... Master Hyūga (talk) 18:12, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Well, he could use TSB and in the upcoming episode he is shown with the SPS back pattern.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 18:39, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Toneri does have Truth-Seeking Balls though. Hinata doesn't, so she isn't a user then but Toneri definitely is if it's true that only those with Six Paths Senjutsu can use them. In that case, wouldn't Kaguya possess it too? Considering Madara and Obito obtained it after becoming the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki and it's actually just Kaguya merged with the Shinju? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:28, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Going by the databook, the Ten-Tails itself is able to manipulate natural energy but doesn't use senjutsu. Kaguya is probably the same, seeing as Naruto said she was one with nature.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:47, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Hamura has been listed as a user of Six Paths Senjutsu apparently because he is a user of Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei. Shouldn't Sasuke be added as well? D.Phoenix (talk) 02:07, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

I thought I had replied to this, but I clearly didn't. For me, it's clear that while SPS is required to use SPCT, clearly not all users have to have it. Sasuke doesn't have it, but he could use it because he performed the jutsu along Naruto, who does have SPS. When Naruto and Sasuke first started fighting Madara again after meeting Hagoromo, Madara singling out their new powers and mentioning he had both of them in one person makes no sense if Sasuke also had SPS by himself. Based on that, I would remove Hamura as a SPS user. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:44, July 19, 2016 (UTC)

Hamura was shown with TSB though and the databook says TSB is a SPS thing.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 03:17, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

SPS having TSB as part of the package, and TSB being achievable only through SPS are different things, and there's also no unquestionable source for Toneri having it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:56, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

But we also know that Tenseigan users do indeed utilize Senjutsu, and Six Paths Senjutsu is merely the combination of Six Paths chakra with natural energy to create Six Paths Senjutsu is not? Would that, coupled with what the databook says, also not confirm Hamura and Toneri as users? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:50, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

We don't know for sure whether Tenseigan users utilize senjutsu (nothing in the translated novel so far) or that Six Paths Senjutsu is just Six Paths chakra + senjutsu since Kishimoto never saw fit to explain what it even is for some reason.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:14, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

Well, since we have terms Six Paths Senjutsu and Six Paths Sage Mode I think it's quite obvious that they utilize Senjutsu but for some reason they are 'Six Paths' whatever it means and whatever it does to it. The databook doesn't mention any other source of acquisition of TSB besides SPS to my knowledge whatsoever, so Hamura and Toneri having them = there has to be some other way too is a flawed logic and assuming too much, instead of Hamura and Toneri having them = SPS users, which is a deduction, since no other way to get TSB was stated.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 15:11, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

The reason I'm so adamant about this is precisely for the lack of definition on what Six Paths chakra is. The most logical explanation would be something to do with Hagoromo's own chakra, and that makes it difficult for Hamura and Toneri to have anything to do with it, since Hamura has never been linked to any sort of Six Paths power on his own, and neither has Toneri. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:56, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

But Hagoromo and Hamura are fraternal twin brothers, who both inherited their mother's chakra who is the only one who had chakra to give. When Madara and Obito acquired the power of the Ten-Tails they also said they acquired "Six Paths Power" or whatever termed they used and were able to use TSBs, and we all know that the Ten-Tails is nothing more than Kaguya merged with the God Tree. So logically, the conclusion can be made that Six Paths chakra in reality is nothing more than the chakra that Kaguya, Hagoromo, and Hamura all share and it's come to be coined as "Six Paths chakra" because Hagoromo is the most famous of the group and it is often aligned with him: when in reality he is not the only one who has it.

We know when the chakra of all the tailed beasts is combined it recreates the Ten-Tails' AKA Kaguya's chakra and the jinchuriki awakens TSBs, we know when someone is bestowed Hagoromo's power they awaken TSBs, we know when someone is bestowed Hamura's power they awaken TSBs, and the fourth databook state that both Hagoromo and Hamura have Six Paths Senjutsu, they inherited their power from their mom, and they both naturally have TSBs. I also recall it being stated in The Last that the Tenseigan utilizes natural energy does it not? Even if it meant the energy vessel, the energy vessel is simply an amalgamation of Hamura's own Tenseigan and the Byakugan of countless Otsutsuki. Would that not confirm that Hamura uses senjutsu and so does Toneri as a result? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, July 23, 2016 (UTC)

If "Six Paths Power" is simply chakra from Kaguya, then technically everyone should have it, because Hagoromo in turn shared his chakra, inherited from Kaguya, to his ninshu followers, and from there ninjutsu was developed and spread to the entire world. In the movie at least, there was no mention of natural energy as far as the Tenseigan is concerned. I've heard the novel expands on it a bit, but I've never seen anything conclusive from any reliable source, so to me that's hearsay at most. The root issue here is that the highest order source of information offers conflicting information. For example, databook says that those with SPS awaken TSB, but the same databook does not list TSB as senjutsu, nor lists canonical users. To me, the best explanation for TSB comes from the "innate ability to grasp the nature of chakra and comprehend all universal things" that comes from having Hagoromo's power, as mentioned in SPSM. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:41, July 23, 2016 (UTC)

Over time chakra becomes diluted though as the bloodline thins, as seen with both Asura and Indra who only inherited half of their father's respective chakra and neither had Six Paths Chakra naturally. It's only awakened when both of their chakras are combined together into one; to recreate their father's chakra. As for the Senjutsu issue, I'd argue that forgetting to classify a certain branch of Jutsu or list certain users is far easier than writing an entirely false section. Every confirmed SPS user has TSBs, and all Toneri did was reawaken Hamura's power when he got the Tenseigan with TSBs. Even if we go by what you believe to be the best explanation, Hagoromo's power is something he inherited from his mother and shares with his brother. So this would only further my point that they're all basically using the same exact thing which explains the manifestation of TSBs in them all. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:35, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

TSB being senjutsu in any way raises more questions than it solves. The only explicit thing mentioned connecting the two is that senjutsu is immune to the YYR that gives TSB its ninjutsu-cancelling effect. If TSB itself is senjutsu, it should be weak against itself, or at least capable of negating senjutsu as well as ninjutsu, since senjutsu isn't some selective transformation of chakra, and affects base chakra before any sort of nature transformation, so any YYR would also be senjutsu YYR. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:29, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Naruto explained that the reason why Senjutsu works against TSBs is because it's using natural energy against natural energy. It's basically causing some type of clash between the two colliding forces of natural energy based on his explanation which causes the TSBs to become distorted and weaken: because they're partially made up of it. It causes some type of cancel-out effect that results in the destruction of their integrity. It may not be fully explained, but it confirms that they do indeed utilize Senjutsu. Unless the translation I read from is wrong? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:07, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

When Naruto first notices this, he strikes Obito with a senjutsu Rasengan. However, his attack lands on Obito directly, and injures him directly, though Obito still regenerates from it. He didn't break through Obito's TSB to do this. He recalls sensing the Ten-Tails through Sage Mode earlier in the fight, and figures natural energy can work against natural energy. The natural energy imbued thing he's talking about is Obito himself, because he's the jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, not the TSB. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:36, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

But he came up with this conclusion after seeing Senjutsu being used on the TSBs, and it works on both the Jinchuriki themselves and the TSBs. This would mean that they both utilize natural energy, especially since the TSBs are made up of the TTJ's own chakra. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:12, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

That's true, Gama's Water Release dissolved Obito's TSB on the grounds that it was infused with natural energy and explained with words that only natural energy can beat natural energy.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:23, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

And his conclusion was tested and validated against the jinchuriki's body, not the TSB. Gamakichi's attack did not dissolve Obito's TSB, stop making things up. Obito blocked the attack, the attack was not ninjutsu erased, and Obito simply undid the shield after the attack had been blocked. The only thing it did was not be instantly destroyed as other things were, and adhere to it, like other starch-based Water Release jutsu do. The next time a senjutsu attack is used against TSB is when Tobirama teleports Naruto and Minato in full Kurama transformation with a massive senjutsu Rasengan, and aside from not being instantly erased, the attack just cracks the TSB shield a bit, with Naruto opting to up the ante by going with a TBB instead, so clearly senjutsu doesn't dissolve TSB. You're also still lacking an explanation as to TSB can't erase senjutsu if it itself is also senjutsu, because making chakra into senjutsu chakra happens before application of nature transformation, so if it was senjutsu, the YYR power would also be senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:50, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that Naruto only came to that conclusion after witnessing what happened when Senjutsu came into contact with the TSB. We know TSBs are weak to Senjutsu, we know Naruto came to this conclusion after seeing TSBs being unable to simply negate it, we see that Senjutsu can actually harm and destroy TSBs, and the only explanation that we do have is Naruto saying that natural energy works against itself. I don't have a full explanation because there isn't one, I'm just going based on what we actually know for sure: and that points to TSBs also being made up of natural energy which is why natural energy works against them. The sheer fact that only those with Six Paths Senjusu awakens TSBs should make it even more obvious that they're a branch of Senjutsu. Ten-Tails' Jinchurikis get SPS and get TSBs, Hagoromo has SPS and so do Asura and Naruto who he gave it to and they all have TSBs, Hamura has SPS and so does Toneri who literally reawakened Hamura's power and they both have TSBs, but even Sasuke who did get Hagoromo's Six Paths chakra doesn't have TSBs? Why is that? Because he lacks the Senjutsu part. I don't know how it can be any clearer or more of a basic logical conclusion that they all very much have Six Paths Senjutsu and are granted Truth-Seeking Balls as an extension based on what the fourth databook says. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:39, July 29, 2016 (UTC)

If TSB are senjutsu, they shouldn't be able to use YYR to negate ninjutsu in the first place. If senjutsu prevents YYR from having its negating effect, then by the very nature of being senjutsu, it should be impossible to apply YYR to TSB for them to have ninjutsu cancelling effects. They're fundamentally opposite, mutually exclusive effects. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:41, July 29, 2016 (UTC)

Just because YYR can't erase Senjutsu, doesn't mean Senjutsu prevents its YYR from erasing Ninjutsu. Actually to me it makes sense Omni... The YYR negating effect in TSB can't erase Senjutsu, because since TSB is Senjutsu, it would erase itself otherwise.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 02:11, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

If TSB itself is senjutsu, it shouldn't be able to hold that effect to be used against other ninjutsu in the first place. There's no selective negation, like I won't negate my ninjutsu, just others'. From the moment Obito turned on YYR, it started nullifying ninjutsu. You are either ninjutsu-negating, or senjutsu, you can't be both at once. It's like the Third Raikage spear and shield contradiction. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:32, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

My point is that that's why it can negate Ninjutsu but not Senjutsu, since it itself is Senjutsu and the negation doesn't work on it. If it were to work on Senjutsu, TSB being one would erase itself.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:53, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

The problem with your point is that you can't have it both ways. If TSB is senjutsu, it shouldn't be capable of negating ninjutsu with YYR. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:46, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

I get what you're saying Omni, but I think Elve's logic is the logic that Kishimoto himself went with. Yes if Senjutsu can counter YYR then the TSBs shouldn't be able to employ both Senjutsu and YYR, cause they would work against each other and make the balls fizzle, but that clearly isn't the case in the actual series when we straight up have Naruto telling us that natural energy works against itself when we TSBs and the TTJ finally taking some damage. I think you're thinking far too deep about this even moreso than Kishi and his team are themselves, as TSBs are stated to be derived from a form of Senjutsu and they're weak to natural energy cause it works against itself. That is enough to confirm that they're Senjutsu, even if logically they shouldn't be able to employ YYR and both Senjutsu because they're already Senjutsu to begin with because the application of natural energy happens before nature transformation. But it is what it is, and that's what the series is telling us, and we can't just ignore it cause personally it doesn't make much sense to us. There is a lot of plotholes and inconsistencies in this series, this would not be the first. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:02, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

Then I want the plot-hole listed and spelled out in a trivia section for everyone to see, and a mention that despite the databook mentioning SPS in the text, the senjutsu category itself is not listed in the TSB entry. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:16, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

Then you or another more experienced editor should do it, I enjoy reading this wiki's articles and contributing information to them from time to time. But I won't act like I'm good at actually editing them myself and citing their sources. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 01:04, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

So TSB got added as a senjutsu technique... hmm... loving how that decision came out of a discussion that was supposed to be about Nagato and Hamura having SPS. ★WindStar7125 14:41, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Despite similar discussions reaching a not-senjutsu decision in the past, yes. Just check past relevant archives. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:06, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Toneri

Based on the decision we made earlier, I think it's time that we list Toneri as a user. If the fourth databook says that only those with Six Paths Senjutsu awaken Truth-Seeking Balls, then Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode is derived from such. This would make sense, as Toneri simply reawakened Hamura's own power by re-converging his scattered bloodlines: and we know Hamura uses Six Paths Senjutsu per databook. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:52, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I 100% agree with you, but one of the reasons why people oppose this is their reasoning: 'too many unknowns' or so.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:57, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

No evidence Toneri has it. You're attributing his supposed SPS to having the Tenseigan. Except Hamura had TSB/SPS long before he had Tenseigan, so Tenseigan is not a source of senjutsu power. And I don't know of any translation of TSB's entry in the databook adding a "only" to that opening sentence. It says "those who awaken SPS manifest TSB", not "only those who awaken SPS manifest TSB". Stop twisting words. I still also have yet to see a reliable translation of whatever the novel says about either Tenseigan, eye or device, having anything to do with natural energy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:06, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Truth-Seeking Balls are Senjutsu, so the fact that Tenseigan Chakra Mode grants them confirms that the Tenseigan uses Senjutsu, and the Tenseigan is Hamura's power, who uses Six Paths Senjutsu which is stated to grant TSBs. Do we really need every single little detail to be confirmed for us? Can we not simply use common sense and connect the dots ourselves? The opening paragraph on the Tenseigan Energy Vessel page literally says it has the ability to collect and amplify natural energy, so clearly it must've been stated somewhere. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:20, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

If this was only connecting A to B, no problem, what this whole subject is doing, is going from one writing system to another. I saw you added the senjutsu part in the TSB article, yet conveniently left out adding the contradiction in the trivia, as agreed, which I had to add. The Energy Vessel and the dojutsu might share a name, but they're very clearly not the same thing. The only place I've heard the energy vessel being related to natural energy in any way is in the novel, something I have yet to see a reliable translation of anywhere. And still, even if the energy vessel is connected to natural energy, that doesn't mean the dojutsu is. And rife with mistakes as the databook is, it not marking TSB as senjutsu makes logical sense, for the reasons I painstakingly explained. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:44, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The Tenseigan containing Hamura's eye(s) at its core and utilizing natural energy are both just hearsay at this point. All that's been translated on the subject so far is that Toneri says Hamura is the origin of the Tenseigan, but we don't even know if he means the energy vessel or the dōjutsu (or both). Not only that, the translated novel is up to Shikamaru's team staging an attack on Toneri's castle, so it's looking increasingly unlikely that we'll get any further explanations, unless there are expository scenes that were scrapped from the movie entirely. I'd argue that until the novel is fully translated (or another source is found), all of that stuff should be removed as we may currently be stating somebody's fanfiction as fact.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:13, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Even if we disregard the novel entirely, Jin no Sho says those that awaken Six Paths Senjutsu get Truth-Seeking Balls so that's the only confirmed way to get it. I've also already explained why the Manga confirmed that they're Senjutsu based on Naruto's own explanation, and the trivia part can be added later as it's not that relevant. The point is, the databook seems to have a habit of not adding people to lists or classifying certain Jutsu correctly so that shouldn't be used to support your argument. It said those with SPS get TSB, we know Hamura has SPS and TSB, and we know Toneri got TSB after he awakened some of Hamura's power within himself: so Toneri logically uses Six Paths Senjutsu to do so and his mode is derived from such. It's really that simple. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:55, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The fact there's such a strong contradiction means a trivia is very relevant. And the same databook that says those who awaken SPS get TSB also doesn't list them as senjutsu. Your explanation requires cherry-picking arguments and information, mine doesn't. And again, saying that SPS grants TSB isn't the same as TSB being sourced solely from SPS. Your Tenseigan argument is still flawed, as Hamura already had TSB way before Tenseigan, and his dojutsu is in no way confirmed to deal with natural energy. Your entire article simply has no legs to stand on. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:06, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

But the Manga confirms them as Senjusu, so they are Senjutsu, so even if the databook doesn't list them as such they still are. Both the Manga and databook are being considered in my argument, you're almost entirely ignoring the Manga and focusing only on the databook. As for the rest, SPS is the only known way that TSBs are obtained, it may not be sourced as solely but it doesn't need to be because it's telling you how they are. There is no other known or implied way to obtain them, so that is how you get them, yet for some reason you think there is some other method to granting them in Toneri's case because he wasn't directly stated to use SPS even though he uses a Jutsu derived from SPS and awakened the power of someone who had SPS too. Hamura having TSB before Tenseigan doesn't even matter, because Toneri awakened Hamura's chakra in his body which is what allowed him to get Tenseigan. It's an exact mirror of how Madara awakened the Rinnegan when his own and Hashirama's chakras combined to recreate Hagoromo's chakra. The only flaw in this mirroring of how the dojutsu is awakened is that in Toneri's case he also got TSBs while Madara didn't. But the rest of what I said still stands, you're basically arguing that Toneri doesn't have SPS for no real reason. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:38, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

If the manga had been as clear about them being senjutsu as you claim it to have been, they'd have been listed as senjutsu a long time ago, and discussions about whether they were senjutsu or not would not have gotten as long as they have. I'm not ignoring the manga, though you seem to be, as you're only focusing on Naruto's words, and completely ignoring the entire analysis I did of what he said versus what he did, as far as attacking Obito went, and what Obito's TSB did and did not do. Also on the manga side, you just ignore the entire paradox of something being ninjutsu-erasing and senjutsu at the same time. Just because something can be sourced in natural energy, it doesn't mean it always is senjutsu. Just look at Tenpenchii. Ten-Tails interferes with natural energy with its chakra, but the jutsu itself isn't senjutsu. Toneri awakening the same dojutsu as Hamura isn't the same as him suddenly having every power Hamura has ever possessed, and Tenseigan, once again, has not ever been linked with senjutsu. Your entire argument is built on one skewed interpretation that ignores a lot of information, and from there making tremendous logical leaps. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:00, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

But why is something being Ninjutsu erasing and also being Senjutsu at the same time a problem to you? What exactly is Ninjutsu in the first place? Chakra transformed to have some effects. We were told that it's the YYR aspect that can erase it, so suppose it works that YYR chakra can erase all chakra, unless it's Senjutsu?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 20:44, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

It was made very clear that ninjutsu-erasing YYR doesn't affect senjutsu. If TSB were senjutsu, the ninjutsu-erasing YYR would not be applicable to it in the first place, it would not be able to take on ninjutsu-erasing capabilities because it's the very thing immune to it. I've lost track of how many times I've said that already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:06, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Senjutsu is immune to YYR, so if TSB is Senjutsu, it doesn't erase itself because of that, but how does YYR not erasing Senjutsu make it not possible to erase Ninjutsu while being Senjutsu? I don't understand your thought pattern behind it, doesn't make sense to me.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 22:44, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Nope. Nowhere does it say that being ninjutsu-erasing YYR means the jutsu would erase itself. Nothing indicates the jutsu would be self-consuming. It simply just is NNYYR. Since NNYYR doesn't affect senjutsu, that means TSB can't be senjutsu in the first place, as it would prevent NNYYR from being part of it in the first place. They're mutually exclusive qualities. That would be like Dust Release needing to have another completely separate characteristic for the jutsu to be usable, to not atomize itself before being used against others. For the sake of argument, imagine NNYYR is its own separate jutsu. The way you're putting it, every NNYYR would have to be senjutsu for it to be of use. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:06, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Because Naruto said natural energy works against itself, which means natural energy is being used in the TSBs, and we know they're spheres of black malleable chakra manifested from those who awaken SPS. When natural energy is used alongside chakra, and stated to be a component of something that is using chakra, then it's using senjutsu chakra. As that is what we've been told and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. The rest of your argument and speculation is irrelevant, because it's right in your face that natural energy is being used. The Tenpenchii example is incomparable, because the Ten-Tails uses it's chakra to affect the natural world around it. That's not comparable to how TSBs work and are achieved, completely different mechanics. It's highly unlikely that we will ever get anymore new info regarding The Last, Tenseigan, and Toneri's chakra mode. But based on what we do know, the fourth databook tells us that those with SPS awaken TSB, every known user of TSB has SPS, except Toneri who didn't get his TSB.... until he awakened the power.... of someone who does have SPS. The series is literally hitting you over the head, it is so painfully obvious based on all of the information that we have gathered so far that debating it is pointless. You're quite literally saying "I'm not going to list Toneri as a Six Paths Senjutsu user, even though he uses a jutsu that is stated to be granted to those who awaken SPS, because he was never directly stated to use senjutsu, even though he uses a jutsu that we know also uses natural energy, based on what Naruto said after using Senjutsu to counter itself." which is ridiculous. It is flat-out common sense. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 01:52, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you. But I also understand the view of Omni and others who hesitate to acknowledge these things as true, since we haven't really gotten much/enough explanation about Six Paths Senjutsu, Tenseigan or Truth Seeking Balls.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 06:32, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

And the same databook that says those with SPS get TSB doesn't call it senjutsu. You cherry pick the few things that support you, when there are many more that don't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:49, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

There's still the possibility that Rikudo Sennin Mode could be translated as Sage of Six Paths Mode instead of Six Paths Sage Mode, which would explain why neither SPSM nor TSB are said to be Senjutsu... - Seelentau ^Talk 22:15, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

Wait, SPSM was never said to be senjutsu? Oi, oi, oi. Didn't know that. ★WindStar7125 22:30, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but to my knowledge, no it wasn't. - Seelentau ^Talk 23:00, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

I was aware the TSB were not stated to have senjutsu, but SPSM too? Then again, "Sage Mode" implies senjutsu, so maybe "Sage of Six Paths Mode" wasn't a bad translation to use if it indeed doesn't have senjutsu? But then again, given what we know, changing to "Sage of Six Paths Mode" and trying to imply it doesn't have senjutsu I think would bring even more questions as to what the mode Naruto used after meeting Hagoromo entails... eh. ★WindStar7125 01:42, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

Rikudō Sennin Mode is classified as both ninjutsu and senjutsu in the databook (somewhat curiously, since Sage Mode was only classified as senjutsu). As for the TSB, what if they are said to come with Six Paths Senjutsu but not listed as senjutsu not because of an error, but precisely because there are other ways of acquiring them? It's always possible that Hagoromo/Naruto/Obito/Madara's TSB are senjutsu, but Toneri's (and maybe Hamura's) are not. After all, Kaguya has a superior version of TSB but hasn't ever been called a sage.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:59, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes, you're right. My bad ^^' - Seelentau ^Talk 09:44, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

Kaguya's own giant TSB not being called senjutsu in anyway anywhere also points at TSB not being senjutsu, yes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:29, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

Toneri and Kaguya

Kaguya see here and as for Toneri, whoever uses Truth Seeking Balls is also a user of Six Paths Senjutsu, no other means has ever been stated or even suggested. More so, Hamura is listed as Six Paths Senjutsu user. Toneri recreated Hamura's power by getting the Tenseigan, so if Hamura is a user and Toneri had Hamura's power, Toneri should be listed.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:28, November 2, 2016 (UTC)

No opinions?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 14:49, December 20, 2016 (UTC)

Infobox image

I'm curious, how does the current infobox image depict the Six Paths Senjutsu? And wouldn't a more representative depiction of it be the pattern consisting of the Rinnegan with the nine magatama? Given:

• The manga outright zeroes in on the pattern on Naruto's back when Madara notes that the former has Six Paths Senjutsu, as it zeroes in on Sasuke's left eye when Madara notices Sasuke's Rinnegan
• The pattern isn't tied to Six Paths Sage Mode, since that is indicated to just be Naruto's fox-toad eyes without pigmentation
• The pattern isn't tied to the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal, since that is depicted on the wiki to be a fūinjutsu
• Furthermore, every user that has the SPS (whether they have it in conjunction with Six Paths Sage Mode or used the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal) who has had their backs shown possesses this pattern

I'm cognizant that all this may not be enough to explicitly affirm SPS is tied to the pattern, but at the very least, I believe it's better indication of it then whatever is currently in the infobox. ★WindStar7125 23:53, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

Because by that reasoning, it would either mean that:

• Naruto no longer has Six Paths Senjutsu, since the back marking is gone since the war
• but Naruto still has the Fox-Toad hybrid eyes without markings, that the databook implied to be Six Paths Sage Mode, since the scene of him kicking Madara's balls is given as description, without him using the cloak yet
• it might imply that Six Paths Senjutsu and Six Paths Sage Mode are 2 different things and that Naruto still has the latter but not the former

I actually questioned Seelentau about this recently by posting him a thread on a naruto forum where some dude analyses this, but Seel said that he no longer is interested in theories and explaining stuff and what not, so shrugs--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 09:15, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

• Well, Naruto no longer uses Truth Seeking Balls, which he awakened through the Six Paths Senjutsu. I'm not trying to imply he no longer has SPS, he just doesn't appear to use anything indicative of SPS anymore
• Well, yes, Six Paths Sage Mode is just the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation, like I said and like the wiki currently indicates
• If they were the same thing, they wouldn't be two different articles, would they?

To repeat, even if this does not explicitly affirm that the pattern is Six Paths Senjutsu, if the manga explicitly depicts the back pattern when it introduces the term "Six Paths Senjutsu" to us, I don't see why the wiki shouldn't do the same. And again, I think it's better than the current image of Hagoromo floating with Truth-Seeking Balls in the infobox, since both flight and the TSBs can be used without Six Paths Senjutsu, so how does it depict something exclusive to SPS? ★WindStar7125 22:40, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

It's not about 2 articles. But the way things are currently worded and understood is that SPS is a power and SPSM is just a form of that power or so. Maybe Six Paths Senjutsu and Six Paths Sage Mode have been 2 quite different things the entire time. I mean, in one of the novels it is suggested that Six Paths Sage Mode has to do with having some chakra from all Tailed Beasts and as we saw and can still see, Six Paths Sage Mode doesn't result in Truth Seeking Balls, while Six Paths Senjutsu does. So just perhaps, because of the similar terminology, we only assumed they are related, while we might have been wrong the entire time and they are 2 separate powers.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:20, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

So SPS and SPSM may or may not be the same thing. I appreciate the discussion Elveonora, I really do, but that only address one point I've made that does not address the proposal: which is that I feel the wiki should be doing the same thing the manga did for depicting this technique. ★WindStar7125 19:52, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

For all it's worth, I agree with Windy. Hagoromo's image doesn't show the markings that appeared when Madara commented on Naruto awakening SPS. Not to mention Truth-Seeking Balls can be created even with Tenseigan Chakra Mode, which is not confirmed to have SPS. (Long time no see, by the way)--JOA²⁰20:20, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

The reason it got changed from the back thingy to this, is because everyone assumed SPSM to be just a variant of SPS and SPSM is the eyes, without the back thingy and TSB, so they were like the back thingy isn't descriptive of SPS since SPSM is SPS and Naruto didn't have back thingy at first. But yeah, I feel like this should be looked into all over again.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 21:08, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

@JOA20, ah how've you been? Nice to see you again.

@Elve, ah yes, you are correct, I remember it clearly:

1. We essentially thought that the Six Paths Sage Mode and the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal were variants of the Six Paths Senjutsu, and the infoboxes in the former two articles showed the full body appearance of the cloak and the pattern on the back, respectively.
2. But the SPTTCS was then determined to being the fūinjutsu that allows the user to become the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki and thus the infobox image was changed from the back pattern to the visual depiction of the sealing process.
3. And then, after Naruto began using chakra modes after the war that resembled his Nine-Tails Chakra Modes instead of the cloak he gained after receiving Hagoromo's power, while still retaining the fox-toad eyes without the surrounding pigmentation, there was this rigorous debate as to whether or not Naruto had or used the SPSM anymore.
4. A group of users (you'll know who I'm talking about, Elve) refused to believe that Naruto didn't have or utilize the SPSM anymore and it was determined that the SPSM was just the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation and not the special cloak, and the infobox image on the SPSM article was changed to reflect that, letting go of the image of the cloak Naruto used against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke.

And now here we are, months and possibly years after rediscovering what the SPSM and SPTTCS were, to the proposal at hand: how does the current infobox image depict anything that's exclusively indicative of the SPS when what's being shown does not require the SPS, and why don't we do what the manga did apropos of depiction of this technique? ★WindStar7125 23:46, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Too bad I don't have the databooks and stuff at hand. The manga did indeed suggest that the back thingy is sign of SPS. I mean, both Madara and Obito got it. You could argue that it was a result of the sealing technique, but Naruto didn't use the same sealing technique to become TT jinch, yet received the same back thingy, so in all likelihood, it indeed is indicative of the power. In that case, it means Naruto no longer has SPS, but he does still have SPSM and they are different somehow, now we just have to conclude how... I wonder if a certain German used-to-be-translator could check :D--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:05, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Bump. ★WindStar7125 05:33, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

Bumping again. ★WindStar7125 05:08, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

Fact-checking

Ok. This has been bothering me since Elveonora suggested it in the previous discussion above, but in all honesty, I agree with his idea that we need to reopen the discussion on what exactly Six Paths Senjutsu entails. Because as I look at this article currently, I see something questionable with it - the "Forms" section (and by extension the "Gallery" section), as I'm led to believe it exists due to the presumptions we've made about SPS along with what has been explicitly given to us by the manga and the databook:

1. Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal: From the way it is defined, it is a fūinjutsu that allows the user to become the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, and thus obtain SPS from having the Ten-Tails' power. How in any way does that make it a "form" of SPS? It is at most a method to obtain SPS and thus can be related to SPS as the infobox indicates, but I'm not sure how that seal is a form of this heightened state of senjutsu, especially when said senjutsu comes from being the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, and not from the seal itself. Saying the SPTTCS is a "form" of SPS gives the implication that the SPTTCS is a derived jutsu of SPS, which isn't true.
2. Six Paths Sage Mode: SPSM was initially thought to be the special chakra cloak that Naruto donned in the war after obtaining Hagoromo's power, but after rigorous debate, it was concluded to be the fox-toad eyes without Sage Mode's pigmentation after Naruto no longer used that same cloak again after the war. I'm not denying the belief that there is a connection between SPSM and SPS. I believe that it would be valid to list SPSM as a related jutsu to SPS. However, what explicit confirmation, depiction, implication or suggestion is there that proves SPSM is a derivative or a "form" of SPS? Doesn't this come from the assumptions we made years ago about the SPTTCS and SPSM being different versions of SPS? Especially since SPSM isn't needed to use SPS, as seen with Obito and Madara, and SPSM can be utilized without using anything indicative of SPS (such as the TSB & flight as the databook confirms, or the back pattern as the manga suggests), as seen with Naruto. If one is a derivative of the other, then one must depend on the other to be used, but there are cases where one can be used without the other (and vice versa). If Sage Mode is not a derived jutsu of senjutsu, then how is a heightened state of Sage Mode (SPSM) a derived jutsu of a heightened form of senjutsu (SPS)? I think SPSM and SPS are at most related to each other. Anything beyond that, such as SPSM being a derived jutsu of SPS or vice versa, I believe is an assumption.
3. The gallery section should also go in my opinion because it's clear that it's being used to depict what is assumed to be the "forms" of SPS. The pictures show Naruto's SPSM, the cloak he used in the war after receiving Hagoromo's power, and the transformations that Obito and Madara went through after sealing the Ten-Tails within themselves. Not really something exclusive to SPS. We could use this as an opportunity to show the distinctive back patterns of Obito and Madara in the overview section similar to the "Acquistion" section of the Rinnegan article with Sasuke and Momoshiki's Rinnegan.

TL; DR:

• The overview should begin with something along the lines of "This senjutsu is suggested to have a connection to the back pattern consisting of the Rinnegan and nine magatama" with the reference to the chapter where Madara pointed out Naruto's SPS and it depicted the latter's back pattern in the manga
• Article should only have whatever the databook and manga confirm and/or depict about SPS
• The "Forms" and "Gallery" sections should be removed because they are based on the assumptions that SPSM is Naruto's version of SPS and the SPTTCS is Hagoromo, Madara and Obito's version of SPS
• In a couple sentences, the page should elaborate how the SPTTCS and SPSM are related to SPS, and this should be reflected in the infobox
• Perhaps include Obito and Madara's back patterns in the article as well, and/or at least point out how Obito's pattern is slightly different

★WindStar7125 07:40, August 14, 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. SPS is Rinnegan and tomoe back thingy and results in TSB and flight, SPSM is the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation and don't come with TSB and flight, TSB and flight did not appear until the cloak got activated.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 08:50, August 14, 2018 (UTC)

Bump. ★WindStar7125 05:46, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Uh, question. Does this change in any way resolve the issue of Asura's chakra avatar? Because shifting that to Nine-Tails chakra mode is tantamount of saying Asura was a Kurama jinchuriki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:02, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Uh, question. Does this change in any way resolve the issue of Asura's chakra avatar?

No, not at all. I didn’t have Asura in mind at all as I was typing this, so forgive me as I fail to see how this topic in particular has anything to do with him.

Because shifting that to Nine-Tails chakra mode is tantamount of saying Asura was a Kurama jinchuriki.

If what you are alluding to refers to the other edits I’ve made moving the information from the SPSM article to the NTCM article, that was totally based on this topic, not the one we have here. ★WindStar7125 17:45, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Asura, at least in the anime, had Six Paths Senjutsu, but not Six Paths Sage Mode, as that one only Naruto has. What's the deal with Asura's avatar is anyone's guess.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 22:05, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, it was never my intention to imply in any of my edits that Asura is the jinchūriki of Kurama. We don't know enough to conclude that. I was just trying to make sure the articles properly distinguish between SPSM and SPS, as I said on the SPSM talkpage. Back to Six Paths Senjutsu, do you or anyone else have any thoughts on the proposal, Omnibender? ★WindStar7125 22:49, August 15, 2018 (UTC)

Asura is what makes the distinction difficult. Based on the recent change, Naruto's Asura Kurama Mode is the result of SPSM modifying TBM, the implication being one needs both to display AKM. Asura can't have TBM without being a jinchuriki, and if Asura doesn't have SPSM, he also can't have AKM. I know there is a big deal made of the cross eyes without pigmentation being SPSM, but the databook entry shows him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak. SPS doesn't have its own entry in the databook, it's something that is mentioned in articles where it's relevant. Rinne Sharingan is in the same situation. Both Naruto and Asura need to be listed as users of whichever is considered to be the source of AKM, be it SPS or SPSM. Flight is shown in the SPSM databook entry, so it's something that appears to both SPS and SPSM. Based on TSB databook entry, which links it to SPS, Asura has to have that in the manga as well, being the things he holds in the flashback, and Naruto only manifested his when he turned on the NTCM-like chakra cloak. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:17, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

You have my guarantee that I'll address your argument, Omnibender, but question: what does it have to do with my initial proposal on this talkpage, which is:

• The overview of this article should begin with something along the lines of "This senjutsu is suggested to have a connection to the back pattern consisting of the Rinnegan and nine magatama" with the reference to the chapter where Madara pointed out Naruto's SPS and it depicted the latter's back pattern in the manga
• Article should only have whatever the databook and manga confirm and/or depict about SPS
• The "Forms" and "Gallery" sections should be removed because they are based on the assumptions that SPSM is Naruto's version of SPS and the SPTTCS is Hagoromo, Madara and Obito's version of SPS
• In a couple sentences, the page should elaborate how the SPTTCS and SPSM are related to SPS, and this should be reflected in the infobox
• Perhaps include Obito and Madara's back patterns in the article as well, and/or at least point out how Obito's pattern is slightly different

Your argument is addressing the edits I made on the SPSM article, not what I'm trying to propose here. Wiki Activity is down to the point where multiple proposals on talkpages aren't being responded to by enough users in a timely manner, so I decided to be bold and make the edits linking to the SPSM talkpage to encourage the discussion you are having with me after waiting for a bit. I'm not at all against reverting my edits on those pages if my counterarguments aren't sufficient enough, but I'd really appreciate it if this proposal on this talkpage was addressed here, while the other discussion about the distinction between SPSM and NTCM appeared on the page I meant to have that discussion on in the first place. If the SPSM-NTCM discussion absolutely has to occur here and not there, then fine, but I just want to know... what is your opinion on the four bullet points I've listed? Or are you indifferent? ★WindStar7125 00:43, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I agree with. I thought the edits to SPSM were a consequence of this. My harping on AKM is because I find it crucial to the the "how SPSM relates to SPS" portion of the topics you raised. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:55, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. I thought the SPSM-NTCM distinction would be trivial and this discussion would require rigorous debate, but I guess I got it flipped. Are you willing to continue the discussion we're having on the SPSM talkpage, or would you rather it remain here? If here, then I guess I'll just make the edits to this article from my proposal and we'll go from there. ★WindStar7125 01:08, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

Did the edits and linked to this discussion in the edit summaries if anyone wants to discuss this topic further. And the article being a bit on the verbose side is intentional, as we aren't given much on SPS. And I had to use an image from the Japanese colored manga volumes I have for Madara's back for the time being as I cannot find a good image of his back while using SPS in the anime (there is one in episode 424 of Naruto Shippuden, but it makes it tricky to capture Madara's back in full). Maybe I'll get someone who is better at image hunting than I to perform that task. ★WindStar7125 06:41, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

Marking on Back?

I'm confused. If that mark is synonymous with Six Paths Senjutsu then how can Hagoromo have Six Paths Senjutsu before his battle with the Ten-Tails. In THE LAST's opening cinematic it depicted Hagoromo only receiving that marking after he became the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails. Littlegen (talk) 18:29, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

The manga shows him with that marking while taking on the Ten-Tails when Madara is giving Hashirama a history lesson. It's just an opening cinematic. I wouldn't take that all too seriously. Also, they aren't necessarily "synonymous". The manga suggests Six Paths Senjutsu has a connection with that marking. Otherwise, Kishimoto wouldn't have bothered depicting it when Madara notes Naruto having the SPS and Sasuke having the Rinnegan. That's all we know. ★WindStar7125 19:13, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

That Design is slightly different and just a opening cinematic? It's still a part of the movie, one that stylizes the history of the series. Littlegen (talk) 19:49, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

Ok and...? What the manga showed isn't any less important. ★WindStar7125 22:10, September 5, 2018 (UTC)

The presence of newer information usually trumps older information. If it conflicts with older information, that tends to be retroactive continuity. Littlegen (talk) 00:33, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

Been doing this awhile, so nothing you’re telling me is new to me. And then by that logic, only Hagoromo faced the Ten-Tails and not Hagoromo and Hamura “because the opening cinematic came after the manga.” ★WindStar7125 04:57, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

You said "how can Hagoromo have Six Paths Senjutsu before his battle with the Ten-Tails". Hagoromo have SPS for the same reason Hamura does, they're Kaguya's descendant. Being Juubi's jinchuriki only gives you SPS because of Kaguya's chakra. —This unsigned comment was made by EstebanOD (talk • contribs) .

Hamura

Is Hamura really a user of this technique? Because I've looked at the translations of his section in the databook, and nothing mentions him having SPS there. Not to mention, SPS doesn't have its own section in the databook, stupidly enough. So it seems Hamura having SPS either comes from him having TSB and/or the databook entry for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei saying "It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu". But counters to this would be:

• Sasuke does not have SPS, yet was able to perform SPCT with Naruto, who did have SPS.
• Hamura's descendant Toneri has the TSB and it's stated on this wiki that he has them due to his Tenseigan Chakra Mode, not SPS, and Hamura is a Tenseigan user.

Which means the decision that comes out of this would be either Hamura being removed as a SPS user or Toneri being added as one. These suggestions were made by Omnibender and Elveonora respectively in the previous discussion, but then that discussion flew off on a tangent and became a debate about whether or not the TSB should be listed as senjutsu, leaving the issue of Hamura and Toneri having SPS or not seemingly unresolved. ★WindStar7125 06:32, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

Toneri should have been added a SPS user long time ago. It's better than removing Hamura for a simple reason: the only known means of TSB by manga and databooks is SPS, rather than assuming Tenseigan gives them without any SPS relation. Unless The Last databook states that Tenseigan gives TSB, that's speculative.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 08:43, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

The thing is, Toneri only displayed TSB after getting in tune with the Tenseigan's power, and the Tenseigan Chakra Mode. If he had SPS before, he'd have TSB when introduced. Only other possibility I can think of, which is rather roundabout complicated, is that among the things Tenseigan grants is SPS, which has TSB as part of the package. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:45, September 6, 2018 (UTC)

You said "Sasuke does not have SPS, yet was able to perform SPCT with Naruto, who did have SPS." But SPS has nothing to do with SPCT. SPCT was performed by Naruto and Sasuke because Hagoromo gave them each half of his chakra, he gave Naruto his Yang half (sun seal) and Sasuke his Yin half (moon seal). When they performed SPCT the seals returned to Hagoromo. It is called Six Paths Chakra, and isn't the same as Six Paths Senjutsu. Six Paths Chakra is (as the name indicates) Hagoromo's chakra, which can be recreated and has been recreated by Madara. Madara has the Yin half already (being a Uchiha) and Hashirama had the Yang half (being a Senju), he then unlocked the Rinnegan, Rinnegan aka the Six Paths Dojutsu. Six Paths Chakra = Yin + Yang release, granted by either the Rinnegan or being Juubi's jinchuriki. EstebanOD (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

SPCT's entry literally says SPS is required, not just the Yin and Yang seals. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Kaguya Mention

Kaguya is mentioned on the page ("and a full power punch to Kaguya's head only managed to snap a horn") but it seems the current consensus has her not listed as a user. That being the case, should her mention of it be removed, since it is not technically relevent (or include her as a user)? Arcadia warlic (talk) 17:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It is mentioned that becoming the Ten-tails jinchuriki allows the user to attain Six Paths Senjutsu, and since being reborn in Madara's body, Kaguya also has this component. Is that not grounds for a Six paths senjutsu listing? Ninja Of War (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

We list the Ten-Tails but not Kaguya herself for whatever reason. Years ago I argued that she is a user as per her usage of Truth Seeking Balls. Hell, I think even Toneri should be listed, but that's another topic.Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 06:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

My main issue is the idea that Six Paths Senjutsu should grant an immunity to ninjutsu. Kaguya should be on equal terms with the likes of Momoshiki and Kinshiki, and they are clearly not immune to conventional ninjutsu (since they were affected by Shadow Imitation). I agree it is odd that Kaguya would lack what Madara has, though. Arcadia warlic (talk) 12:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Kaguya is a special case as she is an amalgam of several entities. Also, I do recall that the Ten-tails was also affected by shadow imitation briefly, and is a listed user of Six Paths Senjutsu. Seems exceptions do abound. Ninja Of War (talk) 15:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. We need to remember that Juubi is just Kaguya and Shinju mixed together, the Shinju doesn't have chakra, Kaguya ate the Chakra Fruit. Therefore, if Kaguya's sons have SPS because they are Kaguya's descendant, it is obvious that Kaguya herself would have SPS. After all, Juubi is just Kaguya's chakra + Shinju's body; if Juubi is listed as a SPS user it is only because of Kaguya's chakra and her having SPS. EstebanOD (talk) 20:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Disagree with: "given to Naruto"

It is written: "Hagoromo is able to grant Six Paths Senjutsu to others, as he did with his son, Asura, and later with his son's reincarnate, Naruto Uzumaki."

Obito and Madara got SPS because they were "Juubi's jinchuriki", despite not having 100% of each Tailed Beasts chakra. When Naruto was talking to Hagoromo, the 8 Tails informed Naruto that thanks to Obito, he now had a portion of each tailed beasts chackra in him ; he was then also, sort of, Juubi's jinchuriki. Therefore, Naruto obtained SPS not because Hagoromo gave him, but because he had all tailed beasts chakra within him.

Remember, Hagoromo himself said that this time, he would not give power only to Naruto like he did with Asura (not giving anything to Indra) ; if he gave SPS to Naruto he would have given SPS to Sasuke too. What Hagoromo gave to Naruto was: SPSM and the Yang half of his chakra (sun seal) and to Sasuke: Rinnegan and the Yin half of his chakra (moon seal). It would be unfair to give to Naruto SPS too, and Hagoromo already learned from his mistakes not to treat Indra's descendant the same way he treated Indra himself. EstebanOD (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Six Paths Sage Mode is a form of SPS, and is literally stated to have been given to Naruto by Hagoromo in its databook entry. Maybe Naruto needed to have chakra from all the beasts so Hagoromo could give it/bestow/unlock it for him, but it has been very explicitly stated to have been because of Hagoromo giving it to him. You said it yourself, he gave stuff to both Naruto and Sasuke, the seals, and the different powers of SPSM and Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Omnibender. "Six Paths Sage Mode is a form of SPS" source? cause the databook doesn't mention it, and I mean granted the fact that Naruto keept using SPSM despite not having SPS anymore it would seem pretty obvious the two aren't related, don't you think. "is literally stated to have been given to Naruto by Hagoromo in its databook entry" you seem to be mixing everything, the databook says SPSM was given by Hagoromo, but says nowhere it's the case for SPS, actually SPS doesn't even have a databook entry.. "You said it yourself" ok but completely unrelated as SPSM=/=SPS. —This unsigned comment was made by EstebanOD (talk • contribs) .

When Madara sees Naruto's SPSM, he literally calls it SPS, and then mocks him and Sasuke for only having the individual powers (that and Rinnegan), when he himself has both. Madara and Naruto both possess SPS, but only Naruto's SPS is SPSM. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)