Talk: God Tree

debut

Its debut would be when Kaguya with the fruit is shown I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 19:53, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

I would say so. The thing Obito summoned was a recreation of the Shinju, or rather the Ten-Tails in the likeness of the Shinju, since the original Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan (also the thing Obito summoned had briefly co-existed with the real Ten-Tails Madara had revived). So yeah, no disagreement from me. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 20:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I mean. I'm wondering if the debut is the chapter in which its infobox picture comes from, or the Kaguya mural--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I agreed with you, the mural was it's debut. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 21:13, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's devut tho is chapter 670, not the mural Madara showed to Obito, so I think the Shinju should be treated the same. In which chapter does its infobox picture come from?--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Eh... you decide?--WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 20:39, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

If we're considering the tree Obito made from Ten-Tails to be the Shinju (seeing as it's listed with the Rinnegan), shouldn't chapter 646 be the Shinju's debut? Hagoromo himself even said that the Shinju Kaguya took the fruit from was the same as the one Naruto saw in the war, unless that's a mistranslation.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:36, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo thought the Ten-Tails to be Shinju though. And people are still arguing with me if that thing Obito summoned was Shinju 2 or not--Elveonora (talk) 09:50, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

picture

Do we have one uploaded of its altered form? Also should we add Rinnegan as its power, since it had it when made by Obito?--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Nah. The original Shinju didn't have a Rinnegan, the Ten-Tails did. Even though that TBM replica Obito summoned was labeled as the Shinju by Gyuki, it wasn't the real deal, as it co-existed with the real Ten-Tails Madara later summoned. The thing Obito summoned was just that, a Tailed Beast Mode replica. Last time I checked, the Shinju isn't a Tailed Beast, the Ten-Tails is. --WindStar7125 _(Contribs) 21:10, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Altered or not, it was still the Shinju. I mean, Kakashi wasn't born with Sharingan either yet it's listed as his KKG. So even though the Shinju got Rinnegan from Kaguya/Ten-Tails, it has had itm so...--Elveonora (talk) 21:20, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

regarding the Shinju's present location

Considering that Madara absorbed it, it should have become one again with the Ten-Tails. But we were told that God: Nativity of a World of Trees are roots of the Shinju. If that's true, then it's still there?--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The God Tree that appeared during the war is just a form the Ten-Tails took to absorb Chakra. It's not the original tree. This version of Shinju is just like the Rabbit.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:44, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Except that wasn't stated, it's only something we assumed. The tree Obito made was in fact called Shinju--Elveonora (talk) 11:46, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

If there is something that was stated, it is that the Shinju is the final form of the TT, yet it was also stated that the Shinju is the origin of the TT. The TT always had some tree-like features and that's not weird considering its origin. The Shinju that appeared during the war bloomed from a bud-like thing in the middle of the TT's stomach.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:59, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

That was never stated though.--Elveonora (talk) 12:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

What is the thing that was never stated?--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:10, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

That the Shinju is the final form of the TT--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Gyuuki said that.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:18, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Then I suppose you shouldn't have a problem providing exact chapter and page where it took place--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 646, 5th page. When B was followed by a big number of roots.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:26, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yes and Gyuki, Kurama, Obito, Madara hell even Hagoromo thought that the Ten-Tails = Shinju, before the big plot-twist. Gyuki's statement was wrong, since it didn't know better.--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The original tree, the one with the fruit and all, doesn't exist anymore. It merged with Kaguya to become the TT. Ever since then, it's been that. The tree in the war is not the exact same tree that stood years ago and bore a fruit. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:37, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I know it isn't exactly the same, but what Obito summoned was a recreation of the Shinju from the Ten-Tails' body, not a Tailed Beast Mode or the "final"/"true" form of the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 12:42, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's another form the TT can assume. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:47, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

But the Ten-Tails was still inside of Obito when he made the tree. I see it more like Obito taking a piece of the Ten-Tails' body and making the tree, but that makes it the Ten-Tails no more than its drones are and it surely ain't a Tailed Beast Mode. Also the reason why I brought this up is that even though Madara absorbed the Shinju replica and Kaguya got sealed, the roots which were stated to be of the Shinju are still there and I wonder how come--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

rinnegan

why is shinju listed with rinnegan KG...the 10tails has it not shinju...the tree that obito formed was a form of 10 tails not shinju...shinju in its original form stopped existing after kaguya merged with it...the TT's rinnegan icon should also be changed to the red tomoe one...as it is also listed in rinnegan's article too... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 14:03, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

We don't know wheter the Shinju had it or not, but since Kaguya (and hereby the Ten-Tails') power all came from the Shinju, I fail to see the Tree not possessing the Rinnegan.-- JOA20 14:13, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

so... by that logic we should also add wood...byakugan...dead bone pulse...and basically everything there is in narutovers because hey...they all come down from chakra and chakra came down from the shinju right?... honestly I think it should be removed...unless we have evidence in the manga that says or shows that shinju had rinnegan [or anything else] before its merging with kaguya...I think TT has it because of kaguya and she mutated it after she ate the chakra fruit...anymore thoughts dear fellows? --DARK ZER06 (talk) 14:28, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Read above and another talkpage, I disagree about the thing that Obito summoned having been a form of the Ten-Tails. I believe it was the Shinju. And Kaguya didn't literary merge with it, the Shinju incarnated into Kaguya, but that doesn't mean it's not inside of her and can't go out--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Two things I would like to talk about Elve:

• 1. You believe that what Obito summoned is the Original Shinju and not a form of TT. And you said that Gyuuki and Madara didn't know the truth. Then I would like to know who stated that what Obito summoned is the Original Shinju.
• 2. What do you mean by Shinju incarnated into Kaguya?! As far as I remember, BZ who knows the truth said that the TT is made of Kaguya and the Shinju. He/it didn't say Shinju incarnated into Kaguya.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 15:16, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

@elve...read above this sentence... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Sure:

1. Because it hadn't been the Ten-Tails, since the Ten-Tails still was inside of Obito afterwards when he made the tree and when Obito ceased to be a jinchuuriki, the tree stayed there and didn't vanish. Also its "final form" would be the most complete one, yet when the Ten-Tails fought Hagoromo and Hamura, it wasn't a tree. The reason Gyuku thought so was because he was under the notion that the Ten-Tails equals the Shinju, thus the Shinju equals the Ten-Tails, which is wrong. Also the voice, presumed to be Kaguya was telling Madara to absorb the holy tree
2. How Shinju and Kaguya became the Ten-Tails was through incarnation. Black Zetsu said it wasn't the incarnation of the holy tree trying to reclaim its chakra, but Kaguya's own will--Elveonora (talk) 15:29, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

1. if anything...that form is the shinju after kaguya merged with it...the original form is the one shown when hagoromo talked to naruto in his subconscious... 2. as I remember...kaguya ATE shinju's fruit...how can shinju reincarnate in kaguya? personally...I think when kaguya merged with shinju she still had the ability to change to her original form...as shown in her late fight with team 7... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:52, September 1, 2014 (UTC) btw, let's not get off topic...my issue was whether it's right to list shinju with rinnegan or not...I'm against it until proven otherwise... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 16:00, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

1. Ten-Tails is Shinju + Kaguya, there was no TT before the Shinju incarnated into her body
2. Incarnated, not reincarnated. And we don't know, the consumption of fruit either resulted in the incarnation, or the two are distinct events

For the Rinnegan, since I think there's enough evidence for the tree having been the Shinju itself rather than "TT final form" or "TT TBM" whatever, it has had a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 17:55, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

ok...anyone else...and I also have the same issue with the tailed beast ball in the justu box...seriously this one is way too illogical... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:49, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

It's a glitch, it shouldn't be showing.--Elveonora (talk) 15:52, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Let's move a couple things...

On page 5 of chapter 646, Gyuuki referred to the tree Obito summoned as the Ten-Tails' final form, the Shinju. We then assumed what Obito summoned was the original form of the Shinju for a while (and at the time Gyuuki made its statement, it was also assumed the Shinju and TT were the same thing, but that was proven wrong in chapter 681, page 9). However, in chapter 670, page 10, the original form of the Shinju was shown to be a different tree with no apparent Rinnegan by Hagoromo. So the question was, was what Obito summoned or what Hagoromo showed the original Shinju? At the end of this discussion, we decided what Hagoromo showed was the original Shinju and not what Obito summoned. So what was the thing Obito summoned? This question was answered in page 6 of chapter 673, where it was explicitly stated the "holy tree" Obito summoned was in fact the Ten-Tails (although it was shown to briefly co-exist with the real Ten-Tails Madara revived in page 13 of chapter 663, meaning that tree Obito summoned was a Tailed Beast Mode replica/extension of the Ten-Tails, but nonetheless still the TT as stated in chapter 673). Basically, Obito did exactly what Gaara did when the latter brought forth his tailed beast, Shukaku, in the battle vs Naruto in chapters 134-135. Like Gaara, Obito brought forth a replica his tailed beast, the TT, and co-existed with it on the battlefield, and then the replica took the form of a tree. Due to these bevy of events in the manga (more specifically, the italicized text), I insist we move the Rinnegan and the tree Obito summoned to the Ten-Tails' article rather than it remain in this one. Opinions, anyone?--WindStar7125 18:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: And by the way, I count the big, wide pages in the manga as two pages, so I apologize if my page numbers seem a bit off to those who count the big pages as one page.--WindStar7125 18:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

If you insist... and what if you are wrong and it was the Shinju?--Elveonora (talk) 19:02, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Then things would stay the same. But according to chapter 673, that tree was said to be the Ten-Tails. --WindStar7125 19:08, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, because the Shinju is now part of the Ten-Tails. There's no reason to believe the Shinju's persona isn't somehow present in the Ten-Tails. And before you say: "it has no persona, it was just a tree" then no, because it was said the Shinju incarnated into Kaguya, thus the Ten-Tails came to be. Something without consciousness/soul can't incarnate, can it?--Elveonora (talk) 19:15, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

It cannot speak, it has no persona, it is a tree. Secondly, I don't think you know what the word "incarnate" means. It simply means "another form of/representative of", particularly in reference to a deity. Thirdly, the voice specifically called the "holy tree" that Obito summoned, in the same sentence, the Ten-Tails. Your argument cannot hold up to that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:19, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Lastly, if you read what Zetsu said, it clearly states that to think of the Ten-Tails as an incarnation of the Shinju is wrong; the beast is in fact an incarnation of Kaguya using the tree as a medium. The tree only contributes its form. Kaguya is the brain and the power. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated on pages 6-7 of chapter 646, that while wars were going on, the Shinju was an impartial entity devoid of emotion and wasn't affected by the constant wars going on (That should equal no persona or emotion, right?). The manga said that, not me. And I don't care about the voice in the tree talking to Madara. We discussed that on the Jinchuuriki Forms talk page. I am not going to take this off-topic because of some unknown voice in a tree. The voice in 673 confirmed the "holy tree" to be the Ten-Tails after the true original Shinju showed was shown by Hagoromo in chapter 670. I'm not here to talk about a voice and make this discussion off-topic, I'm here to suggest we remove the Rinnegan from this article simply because the Shinju Hagoromo showed didn't have it, and because of what happened in chapter 673. I can already tell you disagree with that @Elveo, and that's fine. I'll patiently wait for others' opinions on this.--WindStar7125 19:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: @Foxie, what is your opinion to my first statement in this topic? --WindStar7125 19:30, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Black Zetsu said the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of Shinju and Kaguya. Something that has no mind/soul cannot incarnate. In religious context, for example Christianity, Jesus and Holy Spirit were incarnations of God. God is himself, Jesus and Holy Spirit at the same time, yet they are also their own selves. The soul they share is the same though. For Shinju to incarnate, it has to have had a soul. we were told it's a god, weren't we?--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

We were not. We were told it was worshiped as a deity, which is different from actually being one (see Hagoromo, who was worshiped similarly). Secondly, you show your lack of understanding for religion once again. Man is actually an incarnate of God in religion; because we "take on his form". But that is outside of this argument. A soul is not required to incarnate. A incarnation is literally another form, appearance, aspect of whatever it is incarnating from: a perfect explanation for what the Ten-Tails is. Kaguya provides the mind (will), the Shinju its body. That is the definition of an incarnate. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:39, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Except in reverse. The body is Kaguya's, the spirit is Shinju's. Chapter 681: "The true nature of that is not only the Shinju. It's also Mother's self." means it's as well the Shinju's in the first place.

"It wasn't the incarnation of the Shinju that was trying to recover the chakra fruit" meaning the Ten-Tails' is Shinju's incarnation, that being Kaguya is the body into which the Shinju had incarnated, not the other way around as you say--Elveonora (talk) 19:45, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

…wait. Didn't Zetsu say that the Ten-Tails is the fusion of Kaguya and the Shinju?-- JOA20 19:51, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, there was no literal fusion dance. Kaguya's DNA didn't merge with a tree's or something. The Shinju's spirit/power/essence entered Kaguya, thus the Ten-Tails came to be.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Care to prove that? I'm dying to see the reference for this one. You're wrong of course, but since you're so certain, I'll entertain you. Page, chapter, panel. Let's see it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:55, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Care to prove what? Just posted quotes above.--Elveonora (talk) 19:57, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

... Was the thing Obito summoned the Shinju or was it another form of the TT? In chapter 673, it was the TT. Does the Shinju have the Rinnegan? Can we talk about my first statement, please? I already know @Elveo's opinion, but what do you guys think of my first statement? --WindStar7125 20:03, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan. You are correct about that. But the Shinju is half the Ten-Tails since it became one with Kaguya. And since the Ten-Tails has Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails is half Shinju, the Shinju now has Rinnegan by extension, that's my reasoning--Elveonora (talk) 20:06, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Obito manifested the Ten-Tails, then had it take the form of the Shinju, as Gyūki stated. We don't know wheter the Shinju actually had the Rinnegan, but seeing that all of Kaguya's power came from the fruit bore by the Shinju, it would at least be in the Tree's DNA, or something like that (akin to Hagoromo passing down the Sharingan to Indra despite never showing to have it in the first place).-- JOA20 20:07, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Okay then. Anyone else please respond to my first statement regarding this topic? --WindStar7125 20:12, September 6, 2014 (UTC)