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Kaguya's Will

The Shinju itself was never malevolent, but it was Kaguya's will that was there the entire time since the Ten-Tails was revived. The Shinju only took chakra when Obito summoned it due to her will. The voice in the Shinju speaking to Madara was Kaguya's. When the Ten-Tails saw Hagoromo when seeing the tailed beasts chakra in Naruto, it was Kaguya who got mad and made the Ten-Tails bulk up (Cause she hates her sons). When Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails in the moon, he ended up sealing Kaguya's will as well (Meaning her will was already there in the Zetsus when Madara reawakened them). Simply put, Kaguya's will was there as long as the Ten-Tails was. Also, since Kaguya was controlling the Ten-Tails the whole time, that means she was a jinchuuriki the whole time (Not a pseudo). Anyone disagree? WindStar7125 (talk) 07:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

... what do you guys read? From both translations I understood that she is the Ten-Tails, so she can't be a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast.--Elveonora (talk) 13:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
It literally said Kaguya's will is what the Ten Tails acted on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Because Kaguya is the Ten-Tails...--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju and Ten-Tails

I think it's safe to conclude they're not one and the same. With the new chapter and that they were separate at one point with the Ten-Tails inside Madara and the Shinju still where Obito planted it.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC) Didn't the latest chapter confirmed that Juubi is what became of Kaguya when she ate the Fruit and not the Shinju itself? Maybe the new-born Juubi absorbed Shinju as well, but it doesn't make them the same being.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:40, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

The Jubi is a manifestation of her will to take back the chakra that her sons held.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

the only change in the story is the reason the Shinju went out and started murdering things. The Ten-Tails and the tree being the same did't. especially since we watch the Ten-Tails become the tree.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 08:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
  • facepalm* Except it never become the tree, Shinju and Juubi existed separately since Obito spawned the tree and the beast was still inside him. Faust-RSI (talk) 08:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
What Faust said. Read the newest chapter.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:50, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
'Read the newest chapter.' Well this started swimmingly. And that tree, was stated to an extension of his body after so. Why didn't it disappear? It's a giant broken tree with an eye. I don't pretend to understand that kind of chakra bs. But until stated otherwise, as I stated, the only thing that has changed is the why the Ten-Tails appeared, not that at the very base, it was originally a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Also, because I'm a spiteful bastard. Unless it actually says something different, the chapter directly states that the Ten-Tails wasn't just the Shinju, but also Kaguya's pissed off will. Meaning yeah, it was a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 09:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

@Uli, I understood it as that the Ten-Tails is a literal merger of the Shinju and Kaguya, not that just her will made it transform--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Same thing in the end. Be it Kaguya merged with the Shinju to turn it into the Ten-Tails or just threw her will at it, the tree got up, grew a mouth, and started eating things. Though if she was totally the Ten-Tails, I doubt she would require a resurrection, but then again chakra is screwy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Well, both panda and stream say they merged, we may need a raw for that. If true, then it definitely isn't the same thing, because that makes her a Tailed Beast--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
You're gonna spark a lot of fanfictions if we confirm one of the tailed beasts has a human, female form. On topic, I'd have to agree though. The way it was talked about would lead many to believe that she is at least a part of the Ten-Tails. Atrix471 (talk) 14:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
BZ said they sealed her after all--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Created by Kaguya?

Am I missing something here? Why do several articles claim that Kaguya created the Shinju, using "materialised will" no less? This seems to stem from a misunderstanding. Black Zetsu said that along with the Shinju, Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails, and that her will is the reason that it sought out chakra. In no way did he say that she created the Shinju itself. He didn't even say if she intentionally created (or became) the Ten-Tails.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure where do people get that from. What we were told is that Kaguya merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, yet for some reason people get things like Kaguya creating the Ten-Tails or something--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Because as of now, there are two, slightly conflicting things said about this. One translation states that the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of her will (or some such) while another, while I'm not sure outwordly states they merged, refer to the Ten-Tails as Kaguya. Or some such.
So right now, I think a bunch of articles are fighting a battle over which is which.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
One translation states that Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails and it carried her will, while the other actually states that her body became the Ten-Tails. Either way, neither claims she was involved in the creation of the Shinju, just its beast incarnation (Ten-Tails). If she actually created the Shinju itself, the entire story about the chakra fruit and such would be made completely invalid.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
Thats not at all true. The Shinju was originally the Tree that bore the chakra fruit that kaguya ate. Because kaguya had children, they too bore chakra. She wanted that chakra back and, through her godliness, created an incarnation of the Shinju Tree and herself to reclaim that chakra. The Sons sealed the Shinju inside of Hagoromo, unknowingly sealing their mother aswell. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 20:55, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge article with Kaguya's.

This is a proposal to merge the Shinju's article with Kaguya's. Any remarks? superlogan7437 (talk) 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yes: Not gonna happen for at least the next five to ten chapters. We know waaaaaay too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Definitely not. While Kaguya seems to be much more related to its existence as the Ten-Tails, the Shinju existed by itself long before Kaguya came along. Same with Kaguya, who was her own entity before the eating the chakra fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:55, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:02, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
But once the raws are out/it is further clarified and gets confirmed that Ten-Tails = Shinju+Kaguya, still separate article or merged?--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Italicized for emphasis.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody nor hell are valid reasons.--Elveonora (talk) 18:18, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task 18:21, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, let's merge all character articles because they're all shinobi! • Seelentau 愛 18:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Thank you.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:59, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
And while we're at it, we can merge all chakra natures together since, hey, its just chakra. And if you really want to get technical, the tailed beasts are all just portions of the Ten-Tails, so let's merge them too. (Ok, I've had my fun. Off to get coffee). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can you approach something seriously once in a while? If the manga says that she is the Ten-Tails, then we should reflect that rather than trying to find a biased reason not to--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

But she isn't the Ten-Tails. • Seelentau 愛 19:43, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
It would be wiser to wait. It sounds more logical to merge the Demonic Statue's and the Shinju's article than to merge Kaguya's and the Shinju's to me.--JOA20 (talk) 19:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Seel, have you read the raws yet?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, there aren't even raws for last weeks chapter. But the translation say that the Ten-Tails was partially her, not the other way around. She is not the TT, the TT is her (partially). • Seelentau 愛 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
How is that any different?--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
If a cake is partially poison, then it's a cake with poison in it. If poison is partially a cake, it's poison partially made of cake. Here we had the Jubi with parts of it being Kaguya (apparently), not Kaguya with part of the TT in her. • Seelentau 愛 20:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Other than saying no to this proposal, did most of you need to approach this with ridicule and sarcastic statements? It really wasn't necessary and some of you are sysops, it's not setting an example to anyone wanting to edit here. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 20:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
I believe, Elve-kun is used to this kind of tone and knows there are no hard feelings involved. :) • Seelentau 愛 20:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Sysops though some of us may be, we are also regular users, who like to use sarcasm and snark to get some of our points across. Its the only way to liven up otherwise tense arguments. Hell, Elve and I get into it with our debates, but I still have no problems with the guy. He should know this by now. I hope... >.> ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 21:11, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Everyone, not in mood for formalities today, so just hugs. @Seel, so you admit that the TT is part Kaguya. How is that not a reason for TT and Kaguya articles merger?--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Because all the tailed beasts are part Ten-Tails and we all know that ain't happening.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:40, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, only their chakra is. Otherwise they are separate characters. Saying the Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tails is like saying Naruto is Ashura--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The main reason for not merging those articles is: Both hold high significance in the plot on their own. It's like with Black and White Zetsu. What they did as stand-alone characters weighs more than what they did as merged characters. Also, what I said at the beginning: We know way too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 21:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Look, because I sense a long, long, debate about what should be obvious (we leave the articles separate), can we all just buy each other drinks and call it a day? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 22:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

As stated before and now clarified, the Shinju has no consciousness, it's just a magical tree. The mind of the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya, so keeping them separate is like stating she didn't exist until recently, while it was her the whole time. It was her getting angry at Naruto, it was her tearing apart Obito, it was her talking to Madara etc.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

That was only part of her. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The Shinju and Kaguya obviously aren't being merged, so exactly is being proposed here? Merging the parts about the Ten-Tails with Kaguya? Splitting the Ten-Tails into its own article?--BeyondRed (talk) 22:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Shinju is separate from Kaguya, but the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya. This article may need some serious reconstructing though--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Then splitting Shinju Tree n Ten.Ts. yes. Merging Kaguya 'nd Ten.Ts. No. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 22:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Keeping Kaguya and Ten-Tails separate simply is completely illogical. That is like if we had Orochimaru in each of his host bodies as separate characters, chronicling his actions distinctively from each.--Elveonora (talk) 22:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Until the raw elucidates this matter more, no merger or split should take place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

What is even more illogical is trying to stuff the exploits of giant tree, giant tree monster, and three-eyed pyschowoman into one article. Based as of now on flimsy translations. (Because I state for the third time today, only one translation I have read said that the Ten-Tails was "all her" as you seem to believe. The other stated that the Ten-Tails was "part her".) Add to that, as per the bullcrap that is the Zetsu articles, they have done enough to not be merged together. Merging this with Kaguya is unnecessary and stupid. Splitting it into three articles is even more so. What we have now works. Doesn't beat the readers over the head with convoluted nonsense, and is much much easier to manage for the editors.
That said, Omnibender is right. Until the raws come out, this conversation is over.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:07, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
And I patiently am waiting for the raws. I'm just arguing in advance. Convoluted to readers should be of no concern to us, rather what is true. If Kishi tells us that she is X and Y and so, we just have to document it--Elveonora (talk) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

OMG, just one post and suddenly everyone in this wiki flips out.superlogan7437 (talk) 02:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

So now that the viz is out, may we finally split the "ten-tails" parts from the Shinju article and merge them with Kaguya's? Also at this point there's really no reason to have ten-tails and gedo mazo separated. "gedo mazo" is simply a nickname made by Madara given to the crippled form of beast Kaguya.--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu, both whom pre-date Madara, also called it the Mazo. Also against the merge. To save headaches, that is all I will say, my reasons are above. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 21:57, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
edit conflict And yet Black Zetsu, who predates Madara, also calls it by that name. You still don't get why merging them is like merging all the tailed beasts, so I've given up trying to explain it, and will give you a flat no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:58, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

So what about splitting the Ten-Tails from the Shinju, since they are no longer just different forms of the same thing? At the very least we should call characters jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, rather than Shinju, since the Shinju itself isn't a tailed beast.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:05, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Tailed Beasts each have a separate consciousness. They are parts of chakra given form and life and as such, they are individual characters. Their consciousness isn't that of the Ten-Tails' meaning the Tailed Beasts aren't the Ten-Tails, only their chakra is that of the Ten-Tails. I also told you that you are wrong and the Tailed Beasts are no more Ten-Tails than Naruto is Ashura.... To continue.. from what we've been told by the manga, according to Kurama, the Ten-Tails has no consciousness, something proven wrong a few times. Kurama obviously meant the Shinju as having no consciousness, since the last time I checked, trees don't have any. The any and only consciousness the Ten-Tails has shown has been Kaguya's, so even though the Ten-Tails is both the Shinju and Kaguya in body, it's only Kaguya in mind, therefore the Ten-Tails and Kaguya are single character--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

No offense to anyone in particular, but I'm of the view that people should leave out their reader's/fan's bias out of the wiki while doing their editor's duties. Some may not like the way the plot has turned out, but a refusal to document recent developments just because of distaste for them greatly lowers the individuals' credibility and doesn't help the wiki either. Someone may not like something being true, but pretending contrary just for the sake of one's own convenience won't change the fact that it is and equals ignorance and even self-deception/delusion. An object's existence is independent of a subject's awareness and perception of it. That means, if you can't stand the way things are, feel free to read a different fiction and go edit elsewhere. And yes, I'm just making myself the wise one again :P Ignore that, but the message I tried to convey is important. Don't allow subjective feelings influence your productivity--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

I still stay no to everything Elvenora is trying to propose, on the grounds of hell no.
On actual grounds with merit; no to the Demonic Statue because godsdamnit we've been over that shit.
No on the splitting of Ten-Tails and Shinju, on the grounds that an actual article of just the tree is meaningless if the Ten-Tails is simple "Shinju+Kaguya". We gain nothing adding a new article for the tree, especially since it would essentially just be "This is a tree." Not to mention the fact that left to it's own devices, the Ten-Tails progressed to and (kinda) back from the tree.
No to merging Kaguya and Shinju, on similar grounds as to why we've already not merged the Demonic Statue with the Shinju. The two, while mentally "the same" are still different. Kaguya being a horned woman with serious issues, and the Ten-Tails being a giant monster. Their characters (and I don't care to listen to your crap about them being a single character. Nobody but you are opening the manga and going "These are the exact same character") are uniquely different from one and other and thus, for clarity for our readers, they remain separated. And to save you the trouble, the reason why I say this for Kaguya and the Shinju and not the Shinju and the Ten-Tails is because, the Shinju is a giant tree that is literally just there until parts of Kaguya let it walk. At the end of the day, it is still a giant tree.
Now I expect this to get a lot stupider before it gets better, I have taken the liberties to protect the Shinju and its Infobox, to prevent any edit war that could spark.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:09, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to get one thing out of the way, and its something I'm guilty of as well, but I'm flat tired of seeing it. Just because another person's view/opinion isn't yours, Elveonora, does not make it fanon, fanfiction, or their personal bias anymore than your own view is. You throw that around constantly, I suppose thinking that it makes your points more valid, but it doesn't. Believe it or not, you are not the only user around here who cares about how we present our information, as TheUltimate just clearly demonstrated with several of his reasoning. You will not continue to use that argument (that opposing viewpoints are fanfiction). Its debunked and over. Of course, I am also done doing the same, as it doesn't help the conversation in any way and, in fact, turns it into a dung-flinging contest. From now on stick to arguing your points. That said, like I said earlier, I have already expressed my views and TheUltimate and Omnibender have only reaffirmed my convictions. I am still against any merge or split. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 00:18, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone...haven't been here, trading slaps with you guys for awhile...this seems like an interesting discussion topic, on both a micro and macro point. So i'll toss my 2 cents for what they may still be worth at this point.

So for 1st to merging Kaguya to the Shinju...information on that is too ambiguous ATM. Although for the early-mid future, with more info on the subject it would be a wise idea to perhaps open a debate forum (or re-open, i haven't been here in awhile, soo bear with my jet-lag), and go balls deep into this Gedo Mazo/Shinju/Kaguya connection, because regardless of ambiguity and different thoughts, the way they overlap is getting beyond silly. Second, if i may be so forward all of us (myself included) are not 100% imparcial as writers/editors (we aren't suppose to, we're a bunch of fans, writing on a fan encyclopedia, xD)...and that's reflected on the way we handled certain article pages (unoffical jutsu names, descriptions, etc). How many articles did we have to almost rework/clean up due to how our original idea of a piece of information turned up wrong? Third, to note it's not entirely our fault since Kishi's story is growing plot-holes and retcons left and right and we editors, as a result, are left as puppets at the whims of Kishi's chakra strings. Lastly, despite this i do believe that we'll have to clean up the Gedo/Shinju/Kaguya articles to a degree. So yeah, those are my 2 cents for what they are worth. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:33, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Dear God no. We never merged the statue with the Shinju. I don't see why we would Kaguya.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 06:16, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

But aren't we simply supposed to document what we are being told? Half the latest chapter was pretty much "Kaguya is the Ten-Tails" and the other about Madara's past. From what I can gather, the reasons against split/merger are simply bias and laziness. Pretty much: "I don't like it, it confuses me to shit and it's also lots of work, so just pretend it's not true and do nothing" Also Ultimate3, I proposed split of Shinju and Ten-Tails + merger of Ten-Tails and Kaguya, not merger of Shinju and Kaguya, unless I misunderstood you. Because even tho you may not like it, the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya the whole time. The Ten-Tails is monster form of Kaguya, it's completely mental to have two articles for the same character's different forms. @Foxie, point taken, but the very reason for which I throw accusations around is because I do care and if I didn't, I wouldn't waste my time here arguing with people, even though I must admit that sometimes it amuses me doing so. @Cerez, I don't remember any merger of the Gedo Mazo and Shinju proposed, but Gedo Mazo with Ten-Tails and Kaguya.

Anyway, we all intend the best for this place deep down somewhere, it's just we disagree on "small" details, such as what the "best" is. But you know my opinion, in my ideal world; the Demonic Statue, Ten-Tails and Kaguya would be merged and the Shinju separate, because yes, it was just a magical tree of which power incarnated into a (power) hungry woman as she ate its fruit. That's pretty much all. It isn't even clear at this point if the tree originally had any eye and might not be true.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

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