(This also apllies to Ino Yamanaka and Choji Akimichi). I don't think we should add Doton to any of team Asuma members. Nature transformation, even if it is your own affinity element, takes huge amount of hard-work. I think they didn't use nature transformation to perform the justu. They used just shape manipulation instead. There was no need to create earth. The ground is already there so they just had to shape it into a wall. If they had used nature transformation, their chakra would have turned to earth and caused the ground to turn into a much harder substance - that's what the real Doton users do. Elements' users manipulate their own chakra to give it the properties of a certain element, like Naruto turning his own chakra to the wind element to cut the leaf. Now all these shinobies (including team Asuma) didn't do that. They just used doton seals to manipulate the surrounding earth with their own, ordinary chakra.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:57, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
- Which, of course, is all speculation on your part. You don't know what their chakra did or didn't do. Nor do we. We do know, however, that they preformed an Earth Release technique. All of them. Or, well, most of them. We don't know who went through what training, or when they went through it, but the fact is that it is now irrelevant. They have been demonstrated doing Earth Release, so it has been added, as has been the situation every time a character uses a nature release. Unless proven otherwise at a later time, it has, and will remain, listed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:08, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
I'd probably say that you're right in that we probably shouldn't add an Earth nature to Shikamaru and everyone else who employed that earth technique in the previous chapter. This is largely because each and every Shinobi has the capacity to manipulate all five elements, but very few actually DO manage to accomplish this feat, and generally most Shinobi have an aptitude for certain elements and those are the elements they're most likely to employ. However, this is all based on my own personal opinion of how we should do things but Narutopedia seems to hand out elemental natures based solely upon usage alone and not anything else; and from that perspective it would indeed be appropriate to give Shikamaru the earth nature, because we've observed him using such a technique. --Njalm (talk) 13:33, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
- They used it, thus they can do Doton nature transformation, it's either an affinity of theirs or are skilled enough to employ more than a single nature with Doton included. There is no reason not to list them, they indeed used it.--Elveonora (talk) 13:38, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah it's a little weird you and I agree on something, Elv, lol. But I'm with you 100% on this. If they use a Doton technique, they can clearly mold earth-based chakra. It doesn't have to be an affinity or something they worked for, as that all is irrelevant here. When Sasuke learned (and used) his first Raiton technique, for example, he was a user of Raiton. It is not limited to how many techniques, or how experienced they are in the basic nature. @Njalm, by what logic do you propose natures are handed out? What constitutes it? From my observational standpoint, albeit limited, I don't feel you have a grasp of how things work, this wiki aside. And of course this is not me being rude, just to point out (I am often told I am condescending).--220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:08, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
- It's possible they all have an Earth affinity, however Konoha shinobi typically have fire affinities. But that's beside the point. The jutsu they used was supposed to be the simplest of all Earth style jutsus. For example, when Sasuke learned his fireball technique, he was very young and didn't really go through any kind of nature training. He managed to use the fireball jutsu simply by repeating it many times. The Earth Wall jutsu could be simple enough for everyone who might have an Earth affinity to use without much training. That being said, I don't think every elemental jutsu requires a nature affinity to use it. Kakashi is pretty much capable of using almost all the elements for his jutsus thanks to his Sharingan. Supposedly only those with the Rinnegan can have the ability to use that many nature types which suggests that simple elemental jutsus don't rely on any kind of nature affinity. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 05:31, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
Some of you are a bit off. It isn't that merely learning basic nature transformation is difficult. You're confusing what Naruto was trying to do (building up his skill with nature transformation to combine it with the highest level of shape manipulation) with learning a new technique. Oh and the fact that they were being told an Earth Release technique that could "be done by anyone". Skitts (talk) 23:35, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
- You are off, first he had to manage to cut a leaf, only then could he combine that with Rasengan. You suggest that as long as there's little to no shape manipulation present, anyone can do natures. The walls looked defined enough to me though.--Elveonora (talk) 23:41, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
- That depends on which part such a person would be confusing. Are you referring to the leaf training, or otherwise? Even learning basic nature transformation is quite difficult, outside of ones affinity. It is partly the reason why Jounin generally have one to two nature types versus three or more. Naruto, even with the clones, took a tad bit of time with leaf training. Of course all of this is not relevant to the topic, but nevertheless. --Taynio (talk) 23:44, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
- What a straw-man you've constructed Elveonora. First off, I said nothing about there needing to be little to no shape manipulation present in order to perform basic nature manipulation. I was responding to something said above nature transformation "takes a huge amount of work", which isn't true. They're confusing Naruto's training (high nature manipulation with the highest shape manipulation) with what must be done by anyone (depending on the nature) with just anyone learning some basic techniques.. Naruto performed minute nature manipulation just when he managed to cut the leaf. And as Shika said, they were to be told the seals of an Earth Release technique that "anyone could perform", so clearly what I'm saying is indicated rather clearly, unless you're going to go against Occam's Razor in this case, and posit something very unlikely (that dozens or hundreds of people all were trained in Earth Release)? Skitts (talk) 23:52, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
A true problem solver sticks with every given problem, even at times when a solution does not seem apparent. He or she exercises total patience, assesses the situation and devises an airtight solution which shall invariably succeed to the very end of the scenario. Regardless of what scouting ratings and IQ tests results say, Shikamaru's intelligence is flawed. It does not require a rocket scientist to take note.
He is lazy simply because he is not smart enough to solve every single problem. He is emotionally stable, yet lacks the mental capacity necessary to concentrate and consistently devise thorough solutions which will invariably hold water to the very end of the given scenario.
There are times when he only devises only half baked remedies which serve only as immediate solutions. He executes the plan and gives up simply because he failed to arrive upon an actual solution from the very start. At such times, others are required to come in and solve the rest of the problem for him. He gives up simply because he lacks the intelligence necessary to think certain tactical aspects through.
He is brilliant in certain aspects, a tactical savant, a genius by his own unique merit. Still, he is flawed just like anyone else. His flaw does not lie in "laziness" alone.
... I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but I think you're saying that Shikamaru is not as intelligent as he is lauded to be? Simply because he is lazy and cannot devise a solution that works perfectly. To this, I say stop being stupid. An intelligent person does not need to constantly use their intelligence to be intelligent. Shikamaru is smart, but it's not like he enjoys puzzles, he just likes to lie down and the occasional game of Shogi. One's personal preference is not consistent with their intellect. As for his reliance on others, that is a fact of reality. An intelligent person can only get so far by their intelligence. A genius he may be, but he can't work miracles. Yet even so he has worked immediate remedies that allow for opportunity to complete victory. As a Chunin with little direct combat power and a team of Genin he managed to orchestrate a victory over half of the Sound 4 and delay the rest long enough for Naruto to confront Sasuke. By any standard this is more than anyone with his resources would be expected to achieve. As for his "giving up" When? When did his giving up denote any failure in his intellect? He quit against Temari despite having achieved an undeniable victory. He quit when holding the Sound Jounin in place, he was a Genin holding a troupe of Jounin. There was no tactical maneuver he could take advantage of that would allow victory on his own. The closest I could call to being justified is maybe when he pretended to be asleep, but at the time he didn't have a mission to follow and probably thought his own tactical worth was not sufficient to be of use.
If you want an example of a situation where he planned it all out, Fighting Hidan and Kakuzu. He planned out taking out Hidan by himself and using his own battle to aide in killing Kakuzu. Thanks to his plan using Kakashi as an asset they took out two of Kakuzu's hearts and his teammate and while Naruto came in to finish it, his arrival, while admittedly cutting it close, was pretty much part of the plan from Kakashi and Yamato's perspective. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:45, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
..His victory against Temari was not 'undeniable.' His chakra was all but depleted. In an actual one-on-one situation, this would not be good enough. The talent was recognized, he was good enough to become chunin, though I don't think he is the most all round intelligent leaf shinobi. I believe Akastuki members such as Itachi demonstrate greater applied intellect, dare I say even Kakashi and Minato as well, even Tsunade and Orochimaru.
Sasuke is an example of ninja who does not devise such intricate schemes before hand, yet is still smart as a whip. He always reacts instantly whenever something happens and more often than not, he knows exactly how to handle a situation the moment it occurs. His methods are different, yet the end result often the same, he outwits his adversaries.
Shikamaru is essentially a "good soldier." Akatsuki members are devious. They devise intricate schemes which no ordinary shinobi could concoct, let alone pull off. Part of ninja intelligence does lie in tactical planning, yet there is also the hands on aspect involved. Sasuke never had genuine interest in even becoming a leaf village chunin, his sole motive lies in vengeance. Individuals develop patterns based off of their interests and motives and Shikamaru specializes mainly in tactical aspects. —This unsigned comment was made by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) .
- Suffice to say, aside from not signing posts, you have a very limited and skewed idea of what intelligence is. Itachi is intelligent, as well. Does that mean he is an intelligent as Shikamaru? He made a plan that worked, but so did Shikamaru. Anyone can make a plan that works. But what Shikamaru does, as it is often referred to, is planning ahead over people by numerous steps; I believe he is often said to be over one hundred steps ahead of someone in some cases. This means that he quickly looks at a path in forest. He looks at all the variables that path leads to (new paths). He, then, looks at what those, say, two new paths lead to, which becomes maybe four, eight, sixteen, etc. And while having that knowledge, he makes plans against it, of how to potentially stop it. And he keeps making calculated moves based on how things progress. This is not the only area of intelligence, if you want to call it that, Shikamaru excels it, but it is the main one we have.
- As for flaws in his intelligence, there are none. His personality of being lazy is not related in any capacity, nor is giving up/quitting. Sometimes when one encounters one with intelligence in an academic setting (children to young adults (high school)), you'll find they will have poor grades because they're not challenged, which is also referred to laziness at times, and you may find them quitting something easy if it is boring. And any "half baked" are exactly that -- because there's no more paths to choose from, he ran out of options. Take for example a fight between Shikamaru and Madara. Yes, there's many things he could do, but it will eventually seem half-baked because there's only so much he can do. You could argue the same for his fight with Temari. Now is his intelligence infallible? Let me ask another question: is he god?--Taynio (talk) 03:45, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
My apology for not signing my posts, haven't though up a cool enough name...
I can argue easily that anyone who would defend Shikamaru's "perfect intelligence" has the skewered and limited understanding of what intelligence really is. How can any human being have no flaw in his or her intelligence? I argue that characters like Itachi and Kakashi are more intelligent than Shikamaru simply because they have more complex personalities which need not be broken down and analyzed in this article.
The quantity of steps a person is capable of planning beforehand is of "n-dimensional" mathematical value. The results in the end count more than anything else. —This unsigned comment was made by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) .
- Signing is not about having an account. You MUST sign, even if its an accountless IP address. And no one is arguing that he has perfect intelligence, nor have I ever heard it mentioned by anyone over the years from the wikia, or elsewhere in my travel. That would also be quite odd considering his father was more intelligent than he. So if Shikamaru had perfect, what did his father have? Godly?
- Why is Itachi more intelligent? What has he done to show that? He made plans -- great and amazing plans -- but that isn't hard with his knowledge. He also had plans fail quite often. Am I then postulating he lacks intelligence? Not at all. He is fallible, just as Shikamaru is. Kakashi is intelligent, he is often described as being like Kiba, Shikamaru, etc. While being considered a genius, he also has many years of experience from many battles, and even war, and he also has sharingan. The way you quantify Shikamaru's intelligence compared to others, in simplest terms for the Narutoverse, is simply how good they are and how many steps ahead he is, regardless of the outcome. But losing or the results not favouring you in the end doesn't discount intelligence. I am not sure why you think the results mean anything when there's only so much that can be done, intelligence or not. If you put an academy student who thinks 1000 steps ahead of a kage-level Shinobi, it won't matter what the results are, because that student can only do so much. Does it make him any less intelligent? What if he had a reported IQ 60x the kage-level shinobi? He is still as intelligent. I am not sure what else to say because there isn't, and you don't seem to factor in everything, such as skills outside of intelligence, and many other variables. It's confusing.--Taynio (talk) 05:15, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
Let's consider special abilities, then... With the shadow possession jutsu, he doesn't exactly have his work cut out for him. Because of his special ability which he had most of his life to practice, he does not have to resort to such excessively strenuous methods as others would. The only safe bet any ninja would have against one with such a special power would be to remain midair through the entire duration of a battle. Since the universe of Naruto is not the same as Dragon Ball Z, to perform in constant midair is pretty much impossible. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:39, June 29, 2013 (UTC)Rustymoth
What the hell is this? Let me remind you guys again that this is not a forum and when you see things like this, they should be deleted and not responded to. This has no bearing on our articles nor our characters: there is no such thing as perfect in the first place.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:20, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
The points is, though he a genius tactician, he does not demonstrate himself to be quite so sharp in broader realms of human intelligence.
Certain individuals in positions of command make decisions which may at times offend the judgment of others. This is to say, their decisions as leader may seem strategically foolhardy or even stupid to subordinates, though there is broader reasoning behind their decision. Take Tsunade's decision in directly sending Naruto on missions to thwart members of the Akatsuki, for instance.
Shikamaru fails to fully recognize Naruto's significance during Nagato's invasion of Konoha. Shikamaru is not the only once who lacks clarity in grasping the intrinsic human value behind Naruto's specific worth... He is just another kid in the village who holds to a herd mentality.