Shouldn't we add that the ''Sharingan requires two eyes to bring out their true potential'' as noted by madarainchapter602{{unsigned|46.17.233.102}}
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:We should shouldn't we.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:18, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
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Inchapter568,page7,Madara is shown using his three tomoe Sharingan to control Kurama, not a Mangekyo Sharingan. While it has been stated by Itachi (and Sasuke) that the Mangekyo Sharingan possesses the ability to control the Kyubi, neitherMadaranorTobi- the only two people in history to do so - have used a Mangekyo to manipulate the Nine-tailed Fox, so I think the information for Madara should be displayed as experienced and visually, not verbally.--[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 06:59, March16, 2012 (UTC)
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Wedon'tknowwhatwasmeant by that, eitherSusanoo/Rinneganorsomethingnew--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:37, September20, 2012 (UTC)
Ifthe Sharingan requires two eyes to bring out their true potential does that mean that if obito had his other sharingan he'dhave the same abilities he does now expect he would be to suck things in the other dimension without physical contact likekakashi's versionofkamuiandhisowncurrent kamui would be strengthened? --[[Special:Contributions/82.39.201.72|82.39.201.72]] ([[User talk:82.39.201.72|talk]]) 17:54, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:44, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
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Thatwouldn'treallymakeany sense. Every other single MS technique requires the dojutsu to be active. If that were true, the masked man wouldn'tbeableto control Kurama nor any of the other tailed beasts since he has never been shown possessing anything above a standard Sharingan.--[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:UchihaSuraku|talk]])22:35, March16, 2012 (UTC)
:Itachi and Madara have used Susanoo without their respective Mangekyō Sharingans being activated. In fact Sasuke and Itchi have both used partial forms of Susanoo with only their Sharingans activated in recent chapters.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 22:40, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
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That'swhatI mean ...thethingMSisnotactivateddoesnotmeanthepowerisnotthere.
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Whatdoyou mean that'sforumtalk?whyshouldn'twediscussit?--[[Special:Contributions/82.39.201.72|82.39.201.72]]([[Usertalk:82.39.201.72|talk]])19:01,October12,2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:14, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
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Ifyou'rereferringtothispage:http://www.mangabit.com/manga/naruto/chapter/576/page/5,SasukeclearlyhashisMSactivated,asdoesItachiinthenextpage.Idon'tknowwhereyou'regettingthisinformationfrom.Madaraonlyusedhisbasic Sharingan tocontrol Kurama, asdidTobi, thelatter which hasneverbeenshowndisplayinganadvancedformof the dojutsu. --[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]])00:19, March17, 2012 (UTC)
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Discussingthetopicofanarticlejustforthesakeofdiscussionisconsideredforumtalk.Topicismeanttobediscussedonlyasfarasneededtodeterminehowtolisttheinformation. If Sharingan doesX, wesimplysay it does, andunless that goes against anything previously established, in which casediscussionshouldberestrictedinpointingthatout in the article, no point in discussing why it does X. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:27, October12, 2012 (UTC)
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:Oh dear I totally skipped that page. I was also referring to the final parts of Itachi's fight with Sasuke, Madara's current use of the Rinnegan and Susanoo and [http://www.mangabit.com/manga/naruto/chapter/577/page/15 here]. You should learn not to conveniently leave out parts of a post just to simply prove a point.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 11:21, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
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AndyoushouldlearnthattheMangekyo can be activated and deactivated almost instantly, just like when the two siblings met and briefly used Susano'o's fists. Whenwe see Itachi's Sharingan on that page, Susano'o is not activated at all; he just used it to smash through the wall then deactivated it immediately after. As for Madara, theRinnegan is a stage ''above'' the EMS and can still use all of his MS techniques while active; I thought this was common knowledge. However, thethree tomoe Sharingan is a stage ''below'' the MS and cannot use any of its abilities without be active.
Speculateall you want,butMadaraisblatantlyusingastandard Sharingan and nothing more.Inaddition, Kurama'seyes reflect the same exact design; there is no MS involved whatsoever.--[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:UchihaSuraku|talk]])22:08, March17, 2012 (UTC)
Itwasclearlystatedthatinorder to controlKurama(andotherTB)MSisrequired.
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I'mamassivenarutofanandnot a vandal I do lose my cool from time to timejustthoughtI'dletyouknow.I just wanna like know more so I can help more. --[[Special:Contributions/82.39.201.72|82.39.201.72]] ([[User talk:82.39.201.72|talk]]) 22:14, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:36, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
Theonlyinstancethatweknowthiscouldrefertowouldbe"a3rdpower"anexampleofthisbeingAmaterasu/TsukuyomirequirementforSusanoouse. Simply A Mangekyoutech. inleftalongwithBMangekyoutech.inrightinordertouse "C" with both. Butsince we don'tknowifthisiswhatwas referred for, it'ssoonto conclude as such--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:25, October12, 2012 (UTC)
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So?
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==Copy Kekkei Genkai ==
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:10, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
itshouldbenotedtheSharingancandecipher kekkei genkai techniques if the userhasthe kekkei genkai in question, Madara canuseallofthefirst'sjutsubecauseof his first hand experience reading the techniques after his reincarnation because of this.[[Special:Contributions/75.172.178.82|75.172.178.82]] ([[User talk:75.172.178.82|talk]]) 07:52, November9, 2012 (UTC)
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:Speculation beyond the realm of necessity.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:36, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
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Ithink it's alreadystatedinbothTobiand Madara articlesthatthey have usedjust Sharingan.
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HeyCerez, this one might actually have a point. It's noted the Sharingan can't duplicate bloodline abilities, but at the same time, It doesn't seem like it can copy any technique the user can't perform. For example, Sasuke's sharingancopiedShadowoftheDancing Leaf from Lee, but he himself didn't possess the speed to duplicate Lee's other moves until he trained for the 3rd stage of the Chuunin exam. In this case, Madara didn'thavethe ability to perform wood release when he was alive, but when revived he duplicated abilities of Hashirama's he couldn't have seenless than 50 years ago. If phrased properly, I think it's worth noting that if in possession of the capacity to perform a bloodline, the Sharingan can duplicate it. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 16:35, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
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Yet I think it was eitherduringSasukevsItachi or Databook that mentionsMSisrequired.
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:I never said the person is wrong. I said it was speculationbeyondthepointof necessity. We do not know how the Sharingan functions with regards to kekkei genkai whether or not it can decipher them but it's because they don't have the capability to do it that theycan'treproduceit or Madara simply remembered Hashirama's techniques and then practised them etc. When Madara transplanted Hashirama's DNA into his wounds he noted that nothing happened with regards to the Rinnegan, he never said anything about Wood Release.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:13, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:54, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
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TheMangekyōSharingan has the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox, although Madara Uchiha is the only ones to accomplish this milestone, Tobi having done the same but with only a regular Sharingan.
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==Bloodline/Eternal==
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Thisstatementisset up like Tobi used a different method to control Kurama than Madara, but they both did the exactsame thing andused the exactsamedojutsu.MaybetheMSisrequirediftheydon'tpossessextraordinarychakralikethetwo aforementioned shinobi, butitappearsthatthey are exceptions to this rule, and IfailtoseehowpossessinganMSanditnotbeingactivewouldallow someone to useanyof its abilities or traits. Honestly, ItachiandSasuke don't seem to be as knowledgeable about the dojutsu's secrets as Madara and Tobi, especially if you consider that neither has awakened the EMS (until recently) nor the Rinnegan and could not fully decipher the tablet left by the Sage without the latter eyes.--[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 20:26, March19, 2012 (UTC)
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Doesitreallyrequire the personthatgives the EternalMangekyoSharingantobeasiblingorsomeoneofcloserelation?Kakashigothissharingan, thoughnotinMangekyoform, and hashadnosideeffectsinhisvision.Itseemslikeyoujusthave to getanothereye, notonerelated to you. [[Special:Contributions/192.183.30.172|192.183.30.172]] ([[User talk:192.183.30.172|talk]]) 03:15, February4, 2013 (UTC)Adam
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That'slikeaskinghowcouldSasukereadthe Sage's tablet with his Sharingan deactivated ... It'sclearlystatedthatMSisrequiredtodoso,there'snoneedforitto be active.
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I don'tfullyunderstandwhatyouaretryingtosay... but[[Kakashi]]doesnothave'''Eternal'''MagekyoSharingan.'''~[[User:UltimateSupreme|<spanstyle="color:blue;">Ultimate</span>]][[Usertalk:UltimateSupreme|<spanstyle="color:#EE2C2C;">Supreme</span>]]''' 03:20,February4,2013(UTC)
:Kakashihasshown signs of debilitating sight it's justthathedoesnot use the MS nearly as much as an Uchiha does. And so far we've only seen a sibling transfer their eyes to another. Along with what Itachi said to Sasuke during their battle, that's the only basis we have to go on.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:50, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
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You not seeing a gun in my hand does not mean it's not hidden in my pocket.
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It's nowhere stated they are using Tsukuyomi to control the Tailed Beasts/Kurama.
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Just that power of Mangekyou Sharingan needs to be awakened.
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But I agree, the way it's worder in the article is wrong.
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:46, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Tobidefiesthistenet nonetheless as he has never been seen using an MS,andifhedidhavetheabilitytoutilizeone,hewould'veawakened it by now, butseeing as he was so set on obtaining the Rinnegan, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he is unable to doso.
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Nottomentioneach MS techniqueputsadifferentamountofstrainonaneye--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]]([[Usertalk:Elveonora|talk]])17:01, February4, 2013(UTC)
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Now,onecouldsay he's using Hashirama's DNA to augment his visual prowess, but Hashirama manipulated the tailed beasts via Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands and didn't use any eye power whatsoever, and there hasn't been any sign of his cells even being able to enhance the eyes themselves.--[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 21:59, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
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==KyuubiControl==
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How did obito put the nine tails under his control while it was inside kushina, because he stared at kushina and somehow the nine tails got put under his control[[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] ([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]]) 18:06, March 24, 2013 (UTC)
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IfTobiiswhoIthinkhe is, hehadaMSbeforeeventhoughhenowusesaregularSharingan.
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EvenSasukecouldsuppressit'schakrasimply by using a genjutsu on Naruto, entering his mind and interacting with Kurama. Obito likely did the same, entered her mind dimension or what s*** that is, tookcontroloffoxandopenedKushina'sseal--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]]([[Usertalk:Elveonora|talk]])18:35,March24, 2013 (UTC)
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Also the popular theory is that Madara awakened Rinnegan after getting Hashirama's DNA so it can affect the eyes.
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One way or the other, this is getting off-topic.
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Just edit what you want and if others find it as wrong, it will be removed.
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:37, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
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I think that Tobi, assuming he doesn't have the MS, can control Kurama because he has Hashirama's DNA (Wood Element), so his Sharingan is somewhat enchanced. As for Madara, I believe that since he has the MS, he can control Kurama with his Sharingan.[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 12:27, April 7, 2012 (UTC)
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Um, does the Sharingan only have the ability to control Kurama? Or can it be used on other tailed beasts as well? --[[User:Da-sTROLLER|Da-sTROLLER]] ([[User talk:Da-sTROLLER|talk]]) 16:44, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
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:It's only ever been said to be able to control Kurama. We don't know about the others. I doubt it for some reason though because it seems that the Uchiha have some sort of tie to the Nine-Tails--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:47, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
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What did Minato mean "Madara Uchiha" could only control the Kyubi for a short period of time?{{unsigned|70.160.228.33}}
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:Exactly what he said. Madara (Tobi) can't keep the beast under his control forever.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:37, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
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I remember Madara saying all Tailed Beasts can be controlled with Sharingan.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:31, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
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When? During that flashback of Kurama's with people always telling it it couldn't be free? Regardless, we've seen Sharingan controlling the Five-Tails, but we don't know if that's the same sort of control. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:46, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
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What Madara said: "The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:22, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:Yes but the Sharingan aren't the only "blessed eyes" are they? If they are able to control other tailed beast, they've made a piss poor time of handing the Eight-Tails.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:45, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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I don't remember Byakugan or Rinnegan controlling the Tailed Beasts (sure no proof that they can't as Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan so it should) but: ""Nine-Tails, you are merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy… energy that once was a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, '''you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha!''' The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes. Obey!""
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He is talking about Uchiha, thus Sharingan--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:25, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:[[Outer Path]]? Not too sure about anything Byakugan related since Kishimoto regrettably pays very little attention to it, but still "blessed eyes" is a general term where he could've easily said Sharingan. He only made specifications to Kurama being a slave to the Sharingan not all of them. Still it's possible, however unlikely, but an unknown quantity at this point in time.
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Also, the Rinnegan being an evolutionary form of the Sharingan, isn't true. The Sharingan is the descended/devolutioned(o.O?) from the Rinnegan but the Rinnegan isn't an advanced Sharingan.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:50, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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No. He said all tailed beasts are slaves to those with blessed eyes. And Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan (and don't start with stupid theories with Senju DNA because Kabuto said natural) because what lays beyond of Sharingan is Rinnegan. If Sharingan is a lesser version of Rinnegan (devolution) then it makes automatically Rinnegan as the higher level (evolution) dunno what's not clear.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:01, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:You're missing something Elveonora. The Sharingan is an evolution of the Sharingan, not the other way around. This is because it is descended from the Rinnegan, thus it is an evolution, regardless if it is weaker than its ancestor(s). The Sharingan simply has the potential to regress back to the Rinnegan and it is somewhat implied to be rather unnatural, seeing as Madara didn't awaken it until he had obtained Hashirama's DNA. Anyway, this is all conjecture. While we only ''saw'' Madara and Tobi with the standard Sharingan, it is quite possible that they simply activated their Mangekyo after what we saw. This is partially reinforced by the fact the the Naka Shrine Tablet itself (which was likely added to by Madara) says that the only way to control Kurama visually is with the MS, not the standard version. Also, Tobi didn't control the 5-Tails with '''just''' his Sharingan, He was also using Chakraa Disruption Rods and the Ouer Path's Chakra Chains. This seems to be teetering on the edge of speculation. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:27, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:So only the Sharingan are blessed eyes? Even though the Rinnegan is more revered than it and there are two other eyes that fall into the category of "Three Great Dōjutsu"? I'm also not going to start a speculation discussion with you, I was merely correcting your statement. In the same way that the Sharingan cannot '''naturally''' progress to the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan is the same way that it cannot progress to the Rinnegan on its own. Not because the Sharingan is a <u>descendant</u> of the Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan is an evolutionary form of the Sharingan simply because the progression of the eye does not naturally progress to the Rinnegan through orthodox means. You'd also note that Kabuto never said anything about '''natural''' progression— he said "''what lies beyond the Sharingan is the Rinnegan''" which is obvious because it's a '''descendant''' of it. Madara tugged opened his shirt and looked down into his shirt so unless Hashirama's faux face breathes or else itches, I don't know how he'd know it was there (Kabuto's exact modifications to Edo-Madara are also still unknown) Along with the ability he showed to use Hashirama's techniques with accuracy means it's not the first time he's used them. I don't know why you insist of trying to remove Senju DNA attributing to an Uchiha awakening the Rinnegan but its ludicrous to do that. What was Madara's aim in going to the Valley at the End and getting his ass handed to him just to get a bit of DNA if he didn't need it?--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:24, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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@Skitts, Sharingan is an evolution of Sharingan ... (typo?) I guess you meant Rinnegan and nope. Rinnegan is evolution of Sharingan, not the other way around ... that would be like saying Madara downgraded and it's been clearly stated "what lays beyond"
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"evolution" being weaker that from what it has descended is devolution/degradation/degeneration. You are using speculation and wrong "facts" instead of what manga provides. It's been said to be NATURAL EVOLUTION, that's why I said above do not bother with Senju cells stuff. The Elder son has inherited the Sage's eyes, younger body. Uchiha have potential to unlock Rinnegan by their own, just like they can use Izanagi without Senju cells. Stating Sharingan + Hashi boob = Rinnegan is pure speculation and contradicts hints from manga. About your MS controlling Kurama part, you got the thing right ... if you don't see something, it does not mean it's not there. As you said, he could have activated it later or the requirement is to unlock MS and it's not needed for it to be activated to control Kurama/Tailed Beasts.
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@Cerez, Byakugan has not shown or was in any way hinted of being able to control Tailed Beasts ... each time the history of Sage is spoken, there's no mention of Hyuga nor Byakugan thus it's unlikely that they are connected.
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About EMS < Rinnegan, Kabuto clearly said NATURAL. Taking Senju cells is not natural but forced, and more like mutation than evolution. You should remember that Senju DNA is required for "the creation of all things" and that Wood Release also has power to control Tailed Beasts. He can't be another "s6op" with just half of his power.
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:45, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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@Elveonora You appear to be under the misconception that the volution of something is automatically better than it's ancestor, which isn't the case. The Rinnegan being what "lies beyond" the Sharingan just means it's more powerful. I have used no incorrect facts, you have simply not understood things properly. :X [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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Could you cite the chapter and page where Kabuto says "natural"? Because it's either you're reading a translation or else another version of the manga because I was sure to go back and read those chapters again. I see Madara telling Kabuto he didn't create this power but there is no mention of the word natural... at all. The Rinnegan also comes from the Senju-Uchiha's joint bloodline just like Banbutsu Sōzō, but apparently the Sharingan is able to become the Rinnegan without it? If that's so then I'd assume we'll see Sasuke with the Rinnegan pretty soon which I doubt highly.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:19, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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@Skitts, not really. Sharingan being able to evolve into Rinnegan is strict. That's "what lies beyond" not that it's stronger ... the thing it's stronger is common sense since it's an evolution not a degradation.
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@Cerez, where was it stated that Rinnegan comes from both powers of Uchiha and Senju ?
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So6p was BOTH as the source of the blood/powers. The elder son inherited his eyes, younger his body. If Uchiha with Senju DNA is capable of getting Rinnegan, that would mean a Senju with Sharingan also gets Rinnegan. The theory is false as Tobi has both Sharingan and Senju cells and has not awakened Rinnegan, but took it from Nagato--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:38, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:If all of that is true, why did the elder son not receive the Sage's Rinnegan eyes then instead of a (degenerated) form of it? Why did the eyes the proceed to change at all going down his lineage. Each son inherited half the Sage's power; in order to become whole, both lines need to join. As for Tobi not having the Rinnegan, the man stated that the eyes were his etc. etc. etc. maybe there's merit behind that after all but that is just speculation and possible fodder. Then again we don't even know what Tobi is. As for the specifications of everything I don't know, because ¾ of this is shrouded in mystery and this discussion has become long and pointless.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:53, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:This is turning into a lovely back and forth. I will throw this in, just to stir things up.
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:It is common trope in fantasy that things in the past are stronger than things in the present. Just because something "devolves" doesn't mean it got weaker.
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:And thus the plot thickens...--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Uzumaki Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:50, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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@Cerez, it's possible but that would mean that the Uchiha can't be "whole" without the powers of Senju.
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Tobi stated the eyes were "his" "Uchiha Madara's"
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@Ultimate, that's true. Devolution is a step backwards unless I'm wrong, everything points to Rinnegan being stronger. But again, it's not much of a point of stronger/weaker but former and latter--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:05, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:@elveonora "What lies beyond", as in what is stronger. I'm trying to explain that by definition, saying that the Rinnegan is the evolution of the Sharingan is plain incorrect no matter how you put it. Strength is irrelevant here because it has to do with what came first, which was the Rinnegan and its ancestor, and what came after, which was the Sharingan. Anyway, the Rinnegan being stronger is known due to the 3rd Data book referring to it as the most powerful of the 3 great dojutsu, which is what Kabuto is referring to when he says that the Rinnegan is what lies beyond the Sharingan. Also, it was never said to be a natural progression from what I remember and the fact the to obtain just the EMS an unnatural method must be used is further evidence. Anyway, we're straying pretty far from what this is supposed to be about so I suggest we end it here or wrap it up, post-haste. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:17, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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My very last post on the topic/off-topic.
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OP, we don't know ... For the Rinnegan issue, First was So6p/Rinnegan > Uchiha/Sharingan ... if Sharingan can go backwards and change into Rinnegan, it's a devolution of it's original form as Sharingan < Mangekyou < Eternal < Rinnegan is the progress.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:34, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:-sigh- It doesn't have to be stronger/better than it's predecessor to be an evolution. I don't know how many times I have to say that. =/ Back on topic, I think we should remove any mention of anyone controlling Kurama with just a Sharingan for now. Sasuke, Itachi and the Naka Shrine Tablet state that as an MS power and seeing as with both Tobi and Madara, we never see their Sharingan in that context after controlling Kurama, we can't say for sure. However, during his fight with Hashirama (or rather from flashbacks of it), we see Madara's EMS active, though of course that is also explainable for power reasons.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:47, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
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"_" ... what about Sharingan being able to control the other Tailed Beasts as well ?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:00, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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:Again, he didn't. He was using 3 methods to suppress and control the Tailed Beasts (possibly 4):
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* Sharingan (likely Genjutsu, based off of what Sasuke did to Manda)
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* [[Chakra Disruption Rod]]
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* [[Chakra Chains (Outer Path)]]
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It wasn't just the Sharingan. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 00:17, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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I'm referring to what Madara said about the guide being them, the Uchiha with blessed eyes conrolling Tailed Beasts--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:28, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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:That doesn't say or shown anything about the Sharingan having the power to control a Tailed Beast, nor does that statement specify the Sharingan, but Dojutsu in general. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 00:32, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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But the eyes of Uchiha = Sharingan ... there's like 1 possibly 2 Uchihas running around with the Rinnegan and 0 with Byakugan thus it specify Sharingan--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:37, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:55, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
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:Note; Madara Uchiha was an arrogant ass who, in that discussion with the Nine-Tails, called it little more than condensed energy that was too stupid to use its own power. While Madara didn't refer to any dojutsu by name, he clearly ment the Sharingan of the Uchiha clan.
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:Now to recap;
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::Sharingan and Byakugan are descendents of the Rinnegan.
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::Sharingan can evolve (or devolve in this case) into the stronger Rinnegan if Senju and Uchiha blood is united, as shown by Madara Uchiha.
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::The Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan has the power to enslave the Nine-Tails, which was written in that shrine. Madara had the Mangekyo Sharingan by the time he enslaved the Nine-Tails, thus the only one that breaks this is Tobi, though we don't know if he doesn't have the Mangekyo or not.
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:Am I missing anything?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Uzumaki Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:53, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
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He said Uchiha are the guide to all Tailed Beasts due to "blessed eyes" And:
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* Byakugan was never stated or even hinted to descend from Rinnegan/Sage (except Kakashi saying such LONG ago as a rumor, but he does not know better and each time the history of So6p is spoken, there's no mention of Hyuga or Byakugan and it's not even capable of Tailed Beast control as we know.
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* Senju DNA was not confirmed as a requirement to get Rinnegan, it's just a reasonable assumption of many.
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* Both had just the Sharingan activated by the time, it's possible both Madara and Tobi have used MS/EMS off-screen.
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I'm all for a mention that the Sharingan can likely control all the Tailed Beasts and that Tobi also possibly possess MS as it's required for the control of Kurama and such into the trivia (stating it's possible that it was used off-screen)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:26, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
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=== Revisited ===
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Now that it's been shown that Tobi does indeed have the Mangekyo Sharingan, I think it best we tentatively remove mention of controlling Kurama with the 3-Tomoe Sharingan, as there's far no real evidence for that considering what the Naka Shrine tablet apparently says and that the 2 Uchiha to do so both possess the necessary, specified ability to control it. And yes, I'm back. :-) [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 14:23, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
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Welcome back, wondered what happened to you and I agree--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:41, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
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== Sorting ==
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We hv section for ms then directly beyond ems we should hv something in btwn [[User:Salil dabholkar|Salil dabholkar]] ([[User talk:Salil dabholkar|talk]]) 15:52, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:Please stop with the annoying l33t speak. It's impossible to read what you are posting. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 16:05, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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What do u mean ??[[User:Salil dabholkar|Salil dabholkar]] ([[User talk:Salil dabholkar|talk]]) 16:16, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:I think he means using texting language and writing "u" instead of "you". As for there being no section for the Eteral Mangekyō Sharingan, that's because of the method in which it is obtained. It's not an "evolution" of the eye but the by-product of integrating two Mangekyō Sharingan.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 16:19, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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I beg to differ :p It was said that the EMS does give new abilities, however still unseen.
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I do think we should create a new page for the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. It clearly is different from the Mangekyo Sharingan, even if we aren't familiar with the big changes now. [[User:Derigar|Derigar]] ([[User talk:Derigar|talk]]) 16:21, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
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Not quite. If what you're referring to "it was said that the EMS does give new abilities" is the thing Itachi said to Sasuke when they fought before Itachi died, the phrase he said was something along the lines of "gave birth to a new dōjutsu". That could mean either new techniques or just the EMS itself. We've seen the translation of that already. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:28, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
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== Seeing through surfaces ==
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Isn't it worthy a mention that Sharingan can see chakra through surfaces (Sasuke seeing the mini-bombs in his body, Tobi seeing the nano-sized bugs and both Itachi and Sasuke seeing Kabuto's snakes behind the trees.)
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Since every living thing gives off chakra, isn't it similar to Byakugan ?
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:50, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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They were seeing the chakra, that's it.--'''''[[User talk:Deva 27|Deva]] [[Special:Contributions/Deva 27|27]]''''' 16:54, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:I agree (and i've said this before) it doesn't make sense to encroach on what is Byakugan abilities. They can see chakra in any medium "seeing though" whatever is containing it is just a means to the actual ability. Adding that will make it seem as if they can activate their Sharingan and see through objects.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 16:57, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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But every living thing at least Shinobi gives out chakra traces.
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Byakugan has almost 360* X-ray vision and can zoom through object at distance.
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Sharingan can see chakra through surfaces, I think it's worthy a mention since there's more than one such instance.
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--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:09, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
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Well, Ao could use the Byakugan to see through his eyepatch, while Kakashi cannot see through his headband with his Sharingan... --[[User:ScruffyC|ScruffyC]] ([[User talk:ScruffyC|talk]]) 12:55, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
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== Source? ==
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"For example, they can copy hand movements with one tomoe, predict a person's movement and copy techniques with two and fully use the Sharingan's abilities when it is fully matured."
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Where did this came from? [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 16:07, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
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:from observation. though mayhaps it shouldn't sound so matter-of-fact.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
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== A doubt ==
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I have a doubt. Can the [[Sharingan]] [[genjutsu]] affect only those are in eye contact with the user? So all other genjutsu cast by the user without making eye contact is without the Sharingan?[[Special:Contributions/37.41.33.82|37.41.33.82]] ([[User talk:37.41.33.82|talk]]) 12:59, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
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Yep, unless they are somehow reflecting their eyes off something to make contact with the opponent. [[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 13:32, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
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What? So if a sharingan user's Sharingan can reflect off something and the reflection can make contact with the target, then they can still be brought under a genjutsu? Then, Sharingan users must have made use of mirrors and other reflecting surfaces extensively. I could be wrong, you know.[[Special:Contributions/37.41.33.82|37.41.33.82]] ([[User talk:37.41.33.82|talk]]) 14:18, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
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:But if the eye is reflected off something, that's still eye contact.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:17, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
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== Sasuke's Sharingan Jutsu against Sai ==
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When Sasuke and Sai met for the first time, Sasuke used an unnamed Genjutsu against Sai, right? In the Naruto TCG, this Jutsu was named 威圧写輪眼 ''Iatsu Sharingan'', which means ''Coercion Copy Wheel Eye'' (or literally ''Authority Pressure Copy Wheel Eye''). The 威 can be found in [[Kamui]], too. Maybe you want to create an article for that? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:08, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
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Would not be the first time for a videogame to name an unnamed technique ... it was just some random generic genjutsu, but if we have name for that then why not --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
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:<nowiki>*</nowiki>trading card game ;) [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:24, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
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::Meh. I always did like that scene so I'm not opposed to it.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:30, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
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Yeah, game like a game ... go for it :P --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:39, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
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== Databook information ==
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Why aren't the information from the databooks listed in the info box? Like ''Supplementary'' etc. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:36, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
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:Kekkei genkai infoboxes don't have that option.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:36, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
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::And how is that problem avoided, then? They have to be written down somewhere, right? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:04, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
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:::It's written in the infoboxes for individual techniques, or are you meaning for the kekkei genkai itself? [[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 12:28, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
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::::He means for the eyes themselves. I'm not too sure but I'd guess it's because no one would really expect the eyes themselves to be offensive or defensive. At least that's how I see it.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:33, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
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== Sharingan's spin ==
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Does the [[Sharingan]] and the [[Mangekyō Sharingan]] spin when they use [[Genjutsu: Sharingan|genjutsu]]? I know it is speculation, but I felt that I had to know.[[Special:Contributions/37.40.147.29|37.40.147.29]] ([[User talk:37.40.147.29|talk]]) 17:51, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
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This was discussed before. At least when Kakashi use hypnosis, his eye rotates--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:42, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
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==Sealed Sharingan==
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With the reveal of volume 61's cover, is it safe to add the fact that Sharingan that have been "sealed" and gone blind are white, or should it be noted only in relation to Izanami and Izanagi? Itachi's eyes towards the end of his battle with Sasuke seem to have been in a similar state after overusing the Mangekyō, judging by the way they were depicted in the manga (drawn with no Mangekyō Sharingan designs, but not shaded in like Itachi's normal eyes are).--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 21:34, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
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:Blindness is generally indicated that way. You could still drop a reference in the article(s) to the chapter if you feel it necessary.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:01, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
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== Wrong place ==
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Space-Time Migration is not a sharingan jutsu but a mangekyo sharingan jutsu, is it listed as a sharingan jutsu temporarily? and btw we never saw his eye when using the technique. [[Special:Contributions/173.66.119.89|173.66.119.89]] ([[User talk:173.66.119.89|talk]]) 03:30, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
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:[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a3VzJQeCso Really]!? We're waiting for more information to work with before touching that...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:21, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
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== Pair ==
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Shouldn't we add that the ''Sharingan requires two eyes to bring out their true potential'' as noted by madara in chapter 602 {{unsigned|46.17.233.102}}
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:We should shouldn't we.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:18, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
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We don't know what was meant by that, either Susanoo/Rinnegan or something new--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:37, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't we add that the Sharingan requires two eyes to bring out their true potential as noted by madara in chapter 602 —This unsigned comment was made by 46.17.233.102 (talk • contribs) .
We should shouldn't we.--Cerez365™(talk) 11:18, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
We don't know what was meant by that, either Susanoo/Rinnegan or something new--Elveonora (talk) 23:37, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
If the Sharingan requires two eyes to bring out their true potential does that mean that if obito had his other sharingan he'd have the same abilities he does now expect he would be to suck things in the other dimension without physical contact like kakashi's version of kamui and his own current kamui would be strengthened? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 17:54, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
No point in discussing it, that's forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:59, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
What do you mean that's forum talk? why shouldn't we discuss it? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 19:01, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
Discussing the topic of an article just for the sake of discussion is considered forum talk. Topic is meant to be discussed only as far as needed to determine how to list the information. If Sharingan does X, we simply say it does, and unless that goes against anything previously established, in which case discussion should be restricted in pointing that out in the article, no point in discussing why it does X. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:27, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
I don't get what you mean... --82.39.201.72 (talk) 21:42, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
Basically, if you want to ask something just for the sake of asking, don't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:45, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
I'm a massive naruto fan and not a vandal I do lose my cool from time to time just thought I'd let you know. I just wanna like know more so I can help more. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 22:14, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
The only instance that we know this could refer to would be "a 3rd power" an example of this being Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi requirement for Susanoo use. Simply A Mangekyou tech. in left along with B Mangekyou tech. in right in order to use "C" with both. But since we don't know if this is what was referred for, it's soon to conclude as such--Elveonora (talk) 23:25, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
it should be noted the Sharingan can decipher kekkei genkai techniques if the user has the kekkei genkai in question, Madara can use all of the first's jutsu because of his first hand experience reading the techniques after his reincarnation because of this. 75.172.178.82 (talk) 07:52, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
Speculation beyond the realm of necessity.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:36, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
Hey Cerez, this one might actually have a point. It's noted the Sharingan can't duplicate bloodline abilities, but at the same time, It doesn't seem like it can copy any technique the user can't perform. For example, Sasuke's sharingan copied Shadow of the Dancing Leaf from Lee, but he himself didn't possess the speed to duplicate Lee's other moves until he trained for the 3rd stage of the Chuunin exam. In this case, Madara didn't have the ability to perform wood release when he was alive, but when revived he duplicated abilities of Hashirama's he couldn't have seen less than 50 years ago. If phrased properly, I think it's worth noting that if in possession of the capacity to perform a bloodline, the Sharingan can duplicate it. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 16:35, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
I never said the person is wrong. I said it was speculation beyond the point of necessity. We do not know how the Sharingan functions with regards to kekkei genkai whether or not it can decipher them but it's because they don't have the capability to do it that they can't reproduce it or Madara simply remembered Hashirama's techniques and then practised them etc. When Madara transplanted Hashirama's DNA into his wounds he noted that nothing happened with regards to the Rinnegan, he never said anything about Wood Release.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:13, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
Does it really require the person that gives the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan to be a sibling or someone of close relation? Kakashi got his sharingan, though not in Mangekyo form, and has had no side effects in his vision. It seems like you just have to get another eye, not one related to you. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 03:15, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam
I don't fully understand what you are trying to say... but Kakashi doesnot have Eternal Magekyo Sharingan.~ UltimateSupreme 03:20, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
Kakashi has shown signs of debilitating sight it's just that he does not use the MS nearly as much as an Uchiha does. And so far we've only seen a sibling transfer their eyes to another. Along with what Itachi said to Sasuke during their battle, that's the only basis we have to go on.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:50, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
Not to mention each MS technique puts a different amount of strain on an eye--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
How did obito put the nine tails under his control while it was inside kushina, because he stared at kushina and somehow the nine tails got put under his controlRiptide240 (talk) 18:06, March 24, 2013 (UTC)
Even Sasuke could suppress it's chakra simply by using a genjutsu on Naruto, entering his mind and interacting with Kurama. Obito likely did the same, entered her mind dimension or what s*** that is, took control of fox and opened Kushina's seal--Elveonora (talk) 18:35, March 24, 2013 (UTC)
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